October 15, 2025 • 9 mins
The Writings of Frederick Douglass on Abraham Lincoln, acclaimed scholars Lucas E. Morel and Jonathan W. White assemble Frederick Douglass’s meaningful and poignant statements about Abraham Lincoln, including a dozen newly discovered documents that haven’t been seen for 160 years. Measuring the Man brings together, for the first time, every substantive comment Frederick Douglass made about Abraham Lincoln. Spanning more than three decades, this revelatory collection traces Douglass’s complex, evolving assessment of the man who led the nation through the Civil War and emancipation. Readers will encounter the distrust and vitriol Douglass directed at Lincoln throughout much of the Civil War, including his anger and frustration with the president as he moved slowly, but methodically, toward emancipation. Douglass’s writings also reveal how three personal interactions between these two great men led to powerful feelings of friendship and mutual admiration. After Lincoln’s assassination—as Jim Crow laws and political violence gutted the hard-won rights of Black Americans—Douglass expressed greater appreciation for Lincoln’s statesmanship during the Civil War and praised him as a model for postwar America.There is no one better than Frederick Douglass to offer a critical assessment of the Great Emancipator and savior of the Union. His reflections not only convey Lincoln’s contributions to the nation but also teach today’s generation timely lessons on how to fulfill the promise of the American republic. Measuring the Man sheds new light on the most critical period of American history and will transform the way we think about these two extraordinary leaders.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I got to tell you, this book right here is
so fascinating to me. And it's not because I love
my history, but I believe that we're going to learn
a lot about our present day government, people, and everything
around us because of the writings of these two right here,
Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. And you guys have done
the hard work by bringing it together for us to
have a study piece.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, thank you so much. We've been really excited about
this book and we think it has a lot to
say for modern America.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
In what way did you feel, because I know what
I have felt over the past three to four weeks,
and it feels like we're crashing. But yet when you
have a book like this, it's telling me, have hope, buddy,
have hope. There's things that you're not seeing, recognize them.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
So Frederick Douglass was one of Lincoln's greatest critics. At
the beginning of the Civil War, he wrote editorials and
gave speeches that were highly critical of Lincoln and for Douglas,
he was upset that Lincoln was not moving quickly towards emancipation,
black freedom, and black political rights. But over the course
of the war, these two men met three times, and
(01:05):
in those meetings they developed a relationship together. In fact,
by the end of the Civil War, Douglas would consider
Lincoln a friend, and Lincoln said the same about Douglas.
When they met for the first time in August of
eighteen sixty three, Douglas went to the White House ready
to confront Lincoln about some of the issues that were
frustrating him. And Douglas didn't know if he would be
(01:27):
welcomed into the White House or turned away. But Douglas
was welcomed in. Lincoln took him by the hand, and
Lincoln and Douglas sat down together, and the President of
the United States listened to a black man as he
offered his criticism of Lincoln's policies, and Douglas was astounded
by the fact that Lincoln listened to him and actually
took into account what he had to say. And I
(01:49):
think that's a model that modern Americans can look to
that here were two guys who disagreed with each other
vehemently about certain political issues, but they were willing to
engage in conversation and even change each other's minds.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, the one thing that I picked up on this book,
you two is the fact that I really called it
a Beatles moment of that generation because it was something
that was unheard of and it was something that changed
the generations to follow. It was huge, and now you're
putting it in print, so we can sit there and say,
oh my god, I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Watching Douglas give this more or less play by play
commentary as she spans Lincoln's lives, at least the first
time Lincoln comes to his mind is in eighteen fifty eight,
during the famous Lincoln Douglas debates. He comments on the
speech was known as the House Divided Speech in June
of eighteen fifty eight against the sitting incumbent Illinois Senator
Stephen A. Douglas the most important and powerful Democrat, not
(02:45):
Democrat is the most important politician. Throughout the decade of
the eighteen fifties, Douglas starts commenting on Lincoln in his
own writings and newspapers, letters, speeches, and in a later
his third autobiography in the eighteen eighties. He starts commenting
in eighteen fifty eight in our book chronicles this conversation
(03:05):
or actually just this commentary. For more than thirty years
up until through eighteen ninety four, a year before Douglas dies.
So Lincoln is on Douglas's mind this whole time because
to understand Lincoln and to assess Lincoln isn't a way
to understand America. And so it's a fabulous book in
this regard, in terms of watching a great orator, Frederick
(03:27):
Douglass comment on another great orator, the guy who set
the gold standard for political oratory, Abraham Lincoln, and commenting
not just on his speeches but on his actions as president.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Please do not Move. There's more with Lucas E. Morrill
and Jonathan W. White coming up next. The name of
the book, Measuring the Man. The writings of Frederick Douglas
on Abraham Lincoln from Lucas E. Morrill and Jonathan W. White.
This is the type of book that I wish my
father was here today so I could sit down and
talk to him about it, because coming from the different
(04:01):
generations that he and I did, he was always open
about talking about history such as this, because here's the thing.
In our present day, we've got a situation of misunderstanding.
There's a lot of people that don't understand what's going on,
so they write their own story. But with a book
called Measuring the Man, you're giving us the opportunity of well,
they did it back in eighteen fifty eight, why can't
(04:21):
we do it today and just sit down and listen.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah, and we chose that title very carefully. We didn't
want people to think this book as a hagiography. But
as Lucas often says, it's also not a hit piece.
This is Frederick Douglas carefully thinking about Lincoln as a
leader and evaluating him over time. And Douglas repeatedly says
in speeches, we black people we measured Lincoln, we took
(04:49):
measure of him, and sometimes Lincoln came up short in
their minds, and sometimes Lincoln measured up. But throughout it,
Douglas is making a good faith effort, I think, to
try to understand Lincoln. And Douglas comes over time to
appreciate Lincoln. He comes to see the political constraints that
Lincoln faced. He comes to see that if Lincoln had
(05:10):
been more radical in the beginning like Douglas wanted him
to be, that Lincoln wouldn't have been successful. And so
in a sense, you almost have Douglas also measuring himself
as he's thinking about Lincoln over these thirty or forty years.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Were you guys two kids in a candy store when
you came across those undated drafts of speeches? Because I mean,
maybe it's because I'm such a writing horror and history
horror that it's like if I would have had just anywhere,
if I was inches within it, my eyes would be
so fixed to the writing that I would have to
study the penmanship to find out if it's authentic. And
I can feel that in writing.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, Jonathan and I we were actually treading notes and
had our computers and laptop pop while we're talking to
each other, because we're looking at the One thing our
anthology does is we don't trust anybody else's accounts of
what Douglas said. We went where it was available extent,
you know, holograph and manuscripts. We looked at those, and
then we had to get used to how Frederick Douglass wrote.
(06:05):
And here's an interesting one. How he spelled things ease
and eyes. He would transpose all the time. And we
were on like, do we want to keep that, we
want to correct Douglas, et cetera. And so we did
what we could to make this the most faithful reissuing
of what Douglas actually wrote in his own hand. Didn't
trust the newspapers. We realized a lot of the editions
(06:28):
now gave titles to speeches that Douglas did not give
titles to his most famous speech, eighteen fifty two July. Well,
it's called to the Slavers of the fourth of July.
It was delivered on July fifth. That's not a title
that he gave his speech, but it's a quote from
the speech. And so yeah, kids in the candy shop,
for sure, But let me tell you, this was in candy.
This was I mean, this was real stuff, real food
(06:50):
for real people. As we dug into Douglas's political thought,
as he was measuring Lincoln's political thought and then evolving
over time, and his appreciation for the great Amanstader.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
You guys bring up so much information here, And I've
got to ask you about Frederick Douglas in the way
of as he continued to appreciate Abraham Lincoln. Was it
out of empathy compassion or was it that he was
able to look at his own bias and say, calm down,
there's a story here and we're going to learn from it.
So this nation can grow forward.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I think that Douglas came to understand that Lincoln was
a great statesman. And for most of the war, for Douglas,
he's frustrated that Lincoln is just too slow when it
comes to emancipation and not doing enough for black political rights.
But as Douglas began to look at the broader picture,
he sees that Lincoln was able to accomplish great things.
(07:45):
And for the rest of his life Douglas will point
to that, and Douglas loved to point to his personal
interactions with Lincoln. In speech after speech Lincoln, Douglas would
talk about how Lincoln treated Douglas well when he came
to the White House. And for Douglas, I think that
him saying to white America in reconstruction and Jim crowed eras,
you need to be like Lincoln, look to Lincoln as
(08:07):
your model.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Ye yeah, God, ten minutes with you guys is not enough.
Do you have a website where people can go and
is unaudible? Is it your voices so that I can
really dive into these words and get your inflection.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
The book is available anywhere good books are sold. It's
on Amazon and all the BNN and all the other
websites we are on social media if people want to
follow us, Lucas is actually Lincoln Douglas on X and
on Civil War John. We don't have it on audio yet,
but that's something we need to look into.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
My sister Margaret is a fanatic when it comes to
the Civil War, and when I told her about this book,
you have no idea what it did to her soul.
She just feels like that she's going to have something
that nobody before her generation has ever held on to.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That's wonderful to hear.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Well, you guys have got to come back to this
show anytime in the future. I love where your heart is.
I believe in history, and I believe it is today. Well,
thank you so much for having us be brilliant today.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Okay, we'll do
I got to tell you, this book right here is
so fascinating to me. And it's not because I love
my history, but I believe that we're going to learn
a lot about our present day government, people, and everything
around us because of the writings of these two right here,
Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. And you guys have done
the hard work by bringing it together for us to
have a study piece.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, thank you so much. We've been really excited about
this book and we think it has a lot to
say for modern America.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
In what way did you feel, because I know what
I have felt over the past three to four weeks,
and it feels like we're crashing. But yet when you
have a book like this, it's telling me, have hope, buddy,
have hope. There's things that you're not seeing, recognize them.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
So Frederick Douglass was one of Lincoln's greatest critics. At
the beginning of the Civil War, he wrote editorials and
gave speeches that were highly critical of Lincoln and for Douglas,
he was upset that Lincoln was not moving quickly towards emancipation,
black freedom, and black political rights. But over the course
of the war, these two men met three times, and
(01:05):
in those meetings they developed a relationship together. In fact,
by the end of the Civil War, Douglas would consider
Lincoln a friend, and Lincoln said the same about Douglas.
When they met for the first time in August of
eighteen sixty three, Douglas went to the White House ready
to confront Lincoln about some of the issues that were
frustrating him. And Douglas didn't know if he would be
(01:27):
welcomed into the White House or turned away. But Douglas
was welcomed in. Lincoln took him by the hand, and
Lincoln and Douglas sat down together, and the President of
the United States listened to a black man as he
offered his criticism of Lincoln's policies, and Douglas was astounded
by the fact that Lincoln listened to him and actually
took into account what he had to say. And I
(01:49):
think that's a model that modern Americans can look to
that here were two guys who disagreed with each other
vehemently about certain political issues, but they were willing to
engage in conversation and even change each other's minds.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, the one thing that I picked up on this book,
you two is the fact that I really called it
a Beatles moment of that generation because it was something
that was unheard of and it was something that changed
the generations to follow. It was huge, and now you're
putting it in print, so we can sit there and say,
oh my god, I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Watching Douglas give this more or less play by play
commentary as she spans Lincoln's lives, at least the first
time Lincoln comes to his mind is in eighteen fifty eight,
during the famous Lincoln Douglas debates. He comments on the
speech was known as the House Divided Speech in June
of eighteen fifty eight against the sitting incumbent Illinois Senator
Stephen A. Douglas the most important and powerful Democrat, not
(02:45):
Democrat is the most important politician. Throughout the decade of
the eighteen fifties, Douglas starts commenting on Lincoln in his
own writings and newspapers, letters, speeches, and in a later
his third autobiography in the eighteen eighties. He starts commenting
in eighteen fifty eight in our book chronicles this conversation
(03:05):
or actually just this commentary. For more than thirty years
up until through eighteen ninety four, a year before Douglas dies.
So Lincoln is on Douglas's mind this whole time because
to understand Lincoln and to assess Lincoln isn't a way
to understand America. And so it's a fabulous book in
this regard, in terms of watching a great orator, Frederick
(03:27):
Douglass comment on another great orator, the guy who set
the gold standard for political oratory, Abraham Lincoln, and commenting
not just on his speeches but on his actions as president.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Please do not Move. There's more with Lucas E. Morrill
and Jonathan W. White coming up next. The name of
the book, Measuring the Man. The writings of Frederick Douglas
on Abraham Lincoln from Lucas E. Morrill and Jonathan W. White.
This is the type of book that I wish my
father was here today so I could sit down and
talk to him about it, because coming from the different
(04:01):
generations that he and I did, he was always open
about talking about history such as this, because here's the thing.
In our present day, we've got a situation of misunderstanding.
There's a lot of people that don't understand what's going on,
so they write their own story. But with a book
called Measuring the Man, you're giving us the opportunity of well,
they did it back in eighteen fifty eight, why can't
(04:21):
we do it today and just sit down and listen.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah, and we chose that title very carefully. We didn't
want people to think this book as a hagiography. But
as Lucas often says, it's also not a hit piece.
This is Frederick Douglas carefully thinking about Lincoln as a
leader and evaluating him over time. And Douglas repeatedly says
in speeches, we black people we measured Lincoln, we took
(04:49):
measure of him, and sometimes Lincoln came up short in
their minds, and sometimes Lincoln measured up. But throughout it,
Douglas is making a good faith effort, I think, to
try to understand Lincoln. And Douglas comes over time to
appreciate Lincoln. He comes to see the political constraints that
Lincoln faced. He comes to see that if Lincoln had
(05:10):
been more radical in the beginning like Douglas wanted him
to be, that Lincoln wouldn't have been successful. And so
in a sense, you almost have Douglas also measuring himself
as he's thinking about Lincoln over these thirty or forty years.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Were you guys two kids in a candy store when
you came across those undated drafts of speeches? Because I mean,
maybe it's because I'm such a writing horror and history
horror that it's like if I would have had just anywhere,
if I was inches within it, my eyes would be
so fixed to the writing that I would have to
study the penmanship to find out if it's authentic. And
I can feel that in writing.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, Jonathan and I we were actually treading notes and
had our computers and laptop pop while we're talking to
each other, because we're looking at the One thing our
anthology does is we don't trust anybody else's accounts of
what Douglas said. We went where it was available extent,
you know, holograph and manuscripts. We looked at those, and
then we had to get used to how Frederick Douglass wrote.
(06:05):
And here's an interesting one. How he spelled things ease
and eyes. He would transpose all the time. And we
were on like, do we want to keep that, we
want to correct Douglas, et cetera. And so we did
what we could to make this the most faithful reissuing
of what Douglas actually wrote in his own hand. Didn't
trust the newspapers. We realized a lot of the editions
(06:28):
now gave titles to speeches that Douglas did not give
titles to his most famous speech, eighteen fifty two July. Well,
it's called to the Slavers of the fourth of July.
It was delivered on July fifth. That's not a title
that he gave his speech, but it's a quote from
the speech. And so yeah, kids in the candy shop,
for sure, But let me tell you, this was in candy.
This was I mean, this was real stuff, real food
(06:50):
for real people. As we dug into Douglas's political thought,
as he was measuring Lincoln's political thought and then evolving
over time, and his appreciation for the great Amanstader.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
You guys bring up so much information here, And I've
got to ask you about Frederick Douglas in the way
of as he continued to appreciate Abraham Lincoln. Was it
out of empathy compassion or was it that he was
able to look at his own bias and say, calm down,
there's a story here and we're going to learn from it.
So this nation can grow forward.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I think that Douglas came to understand that Lincoln was
a great statesman. And for most of the war, for Douglas,
he's frustrated that Lincoln is just too slow when it
comes to emancipation and not doing enough for black political rights.
But as Douglas began to look at the broader picture,
he sees that Lincoln was able to accomplish great things.
(07:45):
And for the rest of his life Douglas will point
to that, and Douglas loved to point to his personal
interactions with Lincoln. In speech after speech Lincoln, Douglas would
talk about how Lincoln treated Douglas well when he came
to the White House. And for Douglas, I think that
him saying to white America in reconstruction and Jim crowed eras,
you need to be like Lincoln, look to Lincoln as
(08:07):
your model.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Ye yeah, God, ten minutes with you guys is not enough.
Do you have a website where people can go and
is unaudible? Is it your voices so that I can
really dive into these words and get your inflection.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
The book is available anywhere good books are sold. It's
on Amazon and all the BNN and all the other
websites we are on social media if people want to
follow us, Lucas is actually Lincoln Douglas on X and
on Civil War John. We don't have it on audio yet,
but that's something we need to look into.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
My sister Margaret is a fanatic when it comes to
the Civil War, and when I told her about this book,
you have no idea what it did to her soul.
She just feels like that she's going to have something
that nobody before her generation has ever held on to.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That's wonderful to hear.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Well, you guys have got to come back to this
show anytime in the future. I love where your heart is.
I believe in history, and I believe it is today. Well,
thank you so much for having us be brilliant today.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Okay, we'll do
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