November 11, 2025 • 19 mins
Pod Crashing episode 409 with Erika and Elin Lantz from the podcast The Turning River Road. The Turning: River Road (Season 3) is about Lindsay Tornambe who at 13 years old, was chosen by the leader of her family's cult for a special role. She became one of the youngest Maidens of River Road Fellowship in rural Minnesota. After a ritualistic ceremony that married her and other girls to their leader, she endured more than a decade of mental and physical abuse, hidden from outsiders. But Lindsay and a friend decided to escape. They became the whistleblowers who prompted an international manhunt in 2014. It would bring the entire cult crumbling to the ground. A ten-part series from Rococo Punch and iHeartPodcasts.Episodes available here:https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-the-turning-seasons-1-2-3-82262169/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, thanks for coming back to the conversation. Let's do
some pod crashing. Episode number four oh nine is with
Erica and Ellen Lance. The name of their podcast the
Turning River Road. The Eagles are Coming. The Eagles are Coming.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
What a way to start.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Listeners won't know what I'm talking about, but I'll tell
you what, when they get to that part of the podcast,
they're going to go, oh my god, that's wow. People
really do think like that.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Absolutely. And for listeners who don't know, the Eagles are coming,
this podcast is about a cult and the Eagles are coming.
Was a code among them that if you hear people
shouting the Eagles are coming, that means that Jesus is
coming back and you need to get to our meeting
spot immediately so that you can be taken to Heaven.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah. But Jesus in this storyline is a little bit different, Yes.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I would say so, especially in that the leader of
this extreme religious group that basically was a cult was
led by this man named Victor Bernard, who convinced a
bunch of people to move to a commune in the
woods of Minnesota near a pond and kind of sell
their homes, give up everything, burn their belongings from their
(01:15):
past and totally devote themselves to whatever the leader of
the group, Victor told them to do. And so it
really was a story of total control and of taking
what a lot of mainstream Christian Christian denominations believe and
(01:38):
sort of changing it and twisting it and adding to
it to be whatever he wanted it to be.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
The research that the two of you have put into this,
I mean, you had to have looked up from your
computer and thought, there's a lot of this stuff going
on right now in every state across this nation, because
I mean, the way you just described that, Oh my god,
I mean, and then they'll deny we're not a cult.
So there's no way we're a cult. But yet they
have those cult followers as well as traditions.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Absolutely, I think so many different organizations religious groups across
the country start into these cult like tendencies where the
leader has so much psychological control and emotional control over followers,
whether you live on a compound or not, and it
(02:27):
can lead to all sorts of abuses of power and
abusive situations. I think it's incredibly widespread, maybe not to
this level, but you know, still in a way that
I think is dangerous.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I was so shocked to learn that this was taking
place in Minnesota because I just never thought of Minnesota
as being a place that does this. But why am
I shock? That's the thing about it. I guess I
just have always thought that all people from Minnesota are perfect.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
We think so we're from Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So I mean that you handled the interviews and is
who is your editor? Because the pacing is just so
phenomenal in the way that you're carrying the story forward,
and that is important to me. I'm a radio guy.
It's got to be forward motion.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up, because that's something
we're always talking about, is momentum and creating suspense and
that feeling of a pull forward. And our editor, Emily Foreman,
she did an incredible job of cutting us down at
times and knowing how to try to keep that narrative
(03:35):
pushing forward all the time.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
So did you go through the same thing that I
do as an author when you when you give it
to the editor, it's like, Okay, I have to trust you.
And then and when when they tell you the parts
of Takeout you're going come on, do you fight for
those parts?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Of course? Yes, that's I think always the editing process
in any medium. It totally goes that way. And you know,
sometimes you push back and sometimes you say, wow, Emily,
you're so right. I don't know what I was thinking.
And that's like, what's so great about working on a team,
Thank God, Like I would I would hate to do
(04:10):
this alone. And it's so nice that different people can
bring their perspectives and and make it so much better
as a result.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
The Turning River Road is the name of the podcast
and what and this has become what I call a
front seat companion because I listened to my podcast while
in the car, and I'm so glued to this that
that that a normal thirty five minute trip to go
to work is done like in seconds, or it feels
like it. It's because of you, guys, because you draw
me into that storyline.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
That that means the world honestly to hear you say that,
Because yeah, we want people to be drawn in, because
it really is a wild story that I think is
important and worthwhile for people to hear of of a cult,
and and and specifically, I think our show is a
(05:01):
little bit different than what I've heard before about cults
because it takes the perspective of a young girl growing up,
and not just a young girl growing up, but a
young girl who gets put on this pedestal pressure put
on her and you really get to know her day
(05:21):
to day, what is it actually like to be inside
the cult and how does her psychology even change over
the years in the cult. So, yeah, we hope people
are drawn in that way.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
The visual painting that you present to the listeners when
talking about the ring, the ring that she got as
basically an early teen and it just barely fits over
the knuckles today, and yet she didn't take it off.
I could feel that ring on my own finger.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, it was amazing to see this ring that the
leader gave her and gave ten young maidens aged twelve
to twenty three when he chose them to be sort
of these nun like leaders of the church, these young girls,
and then had a spiritual marriage ceremony with them where
he essentially, for all intents and purposes, married these ten
(06:14):
girls and with veils, and he gave them each a
gold ring. And the fact that you see the ring
now and how small it is, it really hits you.
How she was just thirteen years old when her parents
gave her to the leader of their cult.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
One of the things that you talk about, and I
don't want to spoil the podcast at all, but the escape,
and inside my mind when I heard about the escape,
right away, I'm going, but did you escape? Because the
next step in your life, you can't just suddenly drop faith,
you can't drop that connectedness that even a cult has.
And that's where I went when I was listening to
that was her personal feelings about where she was and
(06:52):
did she feel alone?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah, that's really thoughtful of you to think that way,
because absolutely I think she did feel very alone, and
even in the process of leaving. I'll give that away
because there's so much more to the story beyond that,
But she it was a gradual process. She first had
to ask to leave this inner group, the Maidens, and
(07:19):
moved back in with her family, who was still part
of the group. Then from there she gradually interacted with
the outside world more, got her first job, and eventually
moved out of her parents and really extricated herself from
the whole situation. But it is interesting even you know,
the first time she went on an airplane after being
(07:41):
in the group. She hadn't been in an airplane before
with little TV monitors in the seats, and it blew
her mind. And she had never really seen a rom
com or anything since before being in the group, and
she watched one and she was just like, oh, my goodness,
this is amazing. And she didn't even know how to
interact with other people on the plane. And that's just
one example of how she had to relearn how to
(08:04):
interact with the world. And yes, she felt so alone,
but she gradually built a life and a full one
and a beautiful one. And I think it's a really
cool story to hear about you.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You put a picture inside my head in the way
of I wish I could have been a fly in
the wall when she walked into a modern day grocery
store with over one hundred thousand different things to choose from.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So true.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
And she started getting jobs as well. She was, you know,
working in bars and nanny ing and just working anyway
she could to start to make a living. And she
said that she was she felt so gullible because people
would say things to her and she couldn't tell if
they were joking are serious, because she was learning so
much about the outside world that like everything seemed outlandish
(08:52):
and crazy to her, and so she would miss jokes
they would go over her head because she didn't understand like,
oh no, that's that's part of sarcasm. This part is
the actual truth about the outside world. I mean it
was it was like she was encountering the world for
the first time.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Please do not move. There's more with Erica and Ellen
coming up next. The name of the podcast is the
Turning River Road. From Erica and Ellen Lance. There's a
powerful line that you guys share inside this and that
is they that saw into their tears shall reap enjoy
That that should be on a T shirt somewhere because
it really does resonate inside your soul and it helps
(09:31):
you become more aware about your own personal connections with people.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
H that that is an interesting quote to pull out.
And also, I mean, what's kind of spooky about it
is that it is even one that the cult leader
would use and say to At one moment he said
it to I think, if I'm remembering correctly, Lindsay and
(09:58):
her sister while they said in a meadow, And so
that that line kind of to me echoes throughout the
season and kind of sticks with you.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
You know, one of the things that I mean, if
somebody were to look at you and call you old flesh,
I don't know how you would handle it openly or
even spiritually, because I mean, but that's how this dude
got into the hearts of old of the young people.
And it's one of those where it's like you have
to become new, and it had to be with a
man of Christ. And it's like, I'm having a difficulty
(10:29):
trying to figure out the different levels of You're screwed
around with my mind, dude.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Oh absolutely, I mean I think he often he would
speak using versus from the Bible and use very cryptic language,
sometimes sometimes pulling from the Book of Revelation to kind
of confuse people, Like sometimes you could understand what he
was saying absolutely, and then other times you're trying to
figure out what am I supposed to do here? Like
(10:56):
one time Lindsay tells a story about Victor being a
set with her and another one of the ten Maidens,
and he would say, you need to go find the
white Stone and the bright morning Star lines from Revelation,
and it's like, Okay, what do you mean find the
white Stone? What does that mean? It's clearly like a metaphor.
But how am I supposed to prove that I have
somehow found this white stone to show that I'm worthy
(11:18):
of your favor again? And so then your mind just
goes in circles, and you're trying so hard to do
whatever you can to please him and have him not
be mad at you anymore, essentially, and so you end
up spending just constantly, You're waking time thinking about what
Victor has said. Is he disappointed in me today? Is
(11:38):
does he love me today? And how can I prove
my loyalty and fervor right away?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I want to say this isn't just about religion, because
there's a lot of martial arts instructors that are out
there trying to do the same exact thing. And I've
always I've always called martial arts just another form of
a cult, because everybody believes in that master or that sensey.
So I mean, this podcast opens up your eyes for
all things that are around us.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I think that is such a good point, and I'm
glad you bring that up, because I think in some
ways that's part of the purpose of our podcast in general,
is to tell these stories that are a little bit
of a reflection of communities that we all are a
part of, and they're you know, for you, maybe it's
martial arts. For somebody else, it's some other kind of
(12:26):
community they're a part of. But you notice, oh wow, Like,
how do these power dynamics come into play? And how
are people sometimes? I mean, sometimes you need hierarchy, but
how can sometimes certain types of hierarchy lead to toxic
or dangerous situations that lead people to be manipulated and
to do things that hurt others or hurt themselves. And
(12:49):
I think that's kind of the point, is to take
stock of to be more aware, to have that antenna
up what's happening in my own life. Maybe it's not
quite as extreme as that as the story, worry, but
what could be happening that we could lead me down
a path that I don't want to go down.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
How did you get Lindsey to sound so natural? Because
you know what it's like when you put a microphone
in front of people. They fake it up, is what
they do. And I don't hear any faking at all
when I hear her voice.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Well, I think, first of all, she's just very genuine
and she opened up very quickly, just wanting to tell
her story because she thinks it could help people to hear,
you know, learn from her story, and also know they're
not alone, because she knows that other people go through
different versions of similar experiences. But also I think what
(13:39):
was really special about this project is we got to
interview her so many times. I mean, we interviewed her
dozens of times to get hours and hours and hours
and hours of interview tape that then we've then edited
into this podcast series. But it helped us really try
to explore many different dimensions of how she felt throughout
the years that we covered in the story, because often
(14:02):
she had very conflicting feelings, you know, wanting to escape
as a young girl, not knowing how also really believing
what she's being told by her parents and the elders
around her and by Victor Bernard. And I think we're
so lucky that we got to spend nine months just
exploring this story with her and the other people we interviewed,
(14:22):
so that I don't know, I think hopefully we really
reach a sense of truth and just like real I
don't know, like you get to know Lindsey over the
course of the podcast, and that's what we tried to do.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You talk about having hours and hours of conversation. Okay,
so no from one podcast or to another. How far
into the journey did you realize we've got a story here.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I have to say, I think we knew it right away.
I mean, I do think in some ways. I mean,
behind the scenes in production, we're kind of like, this
is going to be easy to make because because, wow,
what a story. Like when we heard the story, we
were like, we don't even have to do anything. It's fascinating,
(15:08):
it's riveting. It's like, what this happened and it ended
in twenty sixteen, it was so recent, it's just But
then I do think somewhere along the way, in those
many hours, it did get to a place where Lindsay,
the main character, opened up so much about the complex
(15:29):
feelings she felt around you, And I think that's when
I was like, oh, there's really something here, when she
was able to articulate that feeling of being abused but
both having feelings of love and admiration for the cult
leader and I just and also hearing her perspective from
a child's perspective growing up and what that really felt
(15:50):
like day to.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Day that cult leader in the way of I mean,
I mean when Lindsay says I don't know why I
love him, I just know everyone did. Oh my god,
kills up my spine.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
There are so many moments when we had chills. I'm
talking with her. I mean, and from the beginning, yeah,
we knew this was going to be a wild story,
but it's like every interview there was another twist or
turn that we didn't see coming. And yeah, I think
that line of I didn't know why I loved him,
I just knew everyone did. Really shows how groupthink can
affect you, especially when you're a kid. But I think
(16:26):
everyone in that group felt that way. Another person we interviewed, Christa,
talked about I think Aylen. You asked Krista, like, so
do you feel like people actually believe this or do
you think some people were pretending at times in the cult?
And Christa said, well, I certainly was. And I think
that's interesting too, is like sometimes everyone around you is
acting a certain way, so you're like, I guess I
(16:47):
need to do that too to be accepted. And sometimes
I think about how many people in that cult part
of them was pretending. But then it leads to this
group fervor that feels unstoppable and feels like, oh, this
is just simply the truth of the world, because everyone
believes it.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
When you create a well written, well performed podcast like this,
I mean, this is authentic journalism. You're going to get followers.
And that word followers to me really scares me because
of things like cults. How are you going to take
care of your followers so that you on your next
podcast will have them and they'll know that they're going
to get something in return that's in good faith.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
That's an interesting question. I mean, I do think our
quote followers are a little bit different and that they're listeners.
They listen to our series and they go along their way.
But I do think that something we try to do
in our storytelling is to have some nuance and take
(17:51):
some care in telling these stories in a way that's
sensitive and careful to listeners. And I hope you know,
in the future we can tell stories that continue to
engage listeners as well.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Where can people go to find out more about you?
Because I really want them to not only do this podcast,
but I want them to experience what you guys have
done to even get here.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Well.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Definitely do subscribe to the Turning River Road. It's really
in any podcast app And there are previous seasons. One
season about Mother Teresa's Nuns and one season about the
world of ballet and the New York City Ballet and
the cult like tendencies of those groups. And I think
the three seasons together, I mean, once you listen to
them back to back, you see all of these repeated themes,
(18:37):
and that has been one of the most mind blowing
parts of working on this project. But yeah, Aalen actually
hosts another podcast that is brand new coming out right
now called America's Crime Lab. That's about cold cases that
are currently being solved with new DNA technology. I mean,
we know DNA has been around for a while, but
(18:57):
it's reaching this new level of being able to extract
evidence from DNA and it's they're literally catching serial killers
using this new technology. So check out also America's Crime Lab.
If you want to hear another podcast with Alen hosting, well.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Will you'd be brilliant today?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Okay, thanks you too.
Hey, thanks for coming back to the conversation. Let's do
some pod crashing. Episode number four oh nine is with
Erica and Ellen Lance. The name of their podcast the
Turning River Road. The Eagles are Coming. The Eagles are Coming.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
What a way to start.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Listeners won't know what I'm talking about, but I'll tell
you what, when they get to that part of the podcast,
they're going to go, oh my god, that's wow. People
really do think like that.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Absolutely. And for listeners who don't know, the Eagles are coming,
this podcast is about a cult and the Eagles are coming.
Was a code among them that if you hear people
shouting the Eagles are coming, that means that Jesus is
coming back and you need to get to our meeting
spot immediately so that you can be taken to Heaven.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah. But Jesus in this storyline is a little bit different, Yes.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I would say so, especially in that the leader of
this extreme religious group that basically was a cult was
led by this man named Victor Bernard, who convinced a
bunch of people to move to a commune in the
woods of Minnesota near a pond and kind of sell
their homes, give up everything, burn their belongings from their
(01:15):
past and totally devote themselves to whatever the leader of
the group, Victor told them to do. And so it
really was a story of total control and of taking
what a lot of mainstream Christian Christian denominations believe and
(01:38):
sort of changing it and twisting it and adding to
it to be whatever he wanted it to be.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
The research that the two of you have put into this,
I mean, you had to have looked up from your
computer and thought, there's a lot of this stuff going
on right now in every state across this nation, because
I mean, the way you just described that, Oh my god,
I mean, and then they'll deny we're not a cult.
So there's no way we're a cult. But yet they
have those cult followers as well as traditions.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Absolutely, I think so many different organizations religious groups across
the country start into these cult like tendencies where the
leader has so much psychological control and emotional control over followers,
whether you live on a compound or not, and it
(02:27):
can lead to all sorts of abuses of power and
abusive situations. I think it's incredibly widespread, maybe not to
this level, but you know, still in a way that
I think is dangerous.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I was so shocked to learn that this was taking
place in Minnesota because I just never thought of Minnesota
as being a place that does this. But why am
I shock? That's the thing about it. I guess I
just have always thought that all people from Minnesota are perfect.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
We think so we're from Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So I mean that you handled the interviews and is
who is your editor? Because the pacing is just so
phenomenal in the way that you're carrying the story forward,
and that is important to me. I'm a radio guy.
It's got to be forward motion.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up, because that's something
we're always talking about, is momentum and creating suspense and
that feeling of a pull forward. And our editor, Emily Foreman,
she did an incredible job of cutting us down at
times and knowing how to try to keep that narrative
(03:35):
pushing forward all the time.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
So did you go through the same thing that I
do as an author when you when you give it
to the editor, it's like, Okay, I have to trust you.
And then and when when they tell you the parts
of Takeout you're going come on, do you fight for
those parts?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Of course? Yes, that's I think always the editing process
in any medium. It totally goes that way. And you know,
sometimes you push back and sometimes you say, wow, Emily,
you're so right. I don't know what I was thinking.
And that's like, what's so great about working on a team,
Thank God, Like I would I would hate to do
(04:10):
this alone. And it's so nice that different people can
bring their perspectives and and make it so much better
as a result.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
The Turning River Road is the name of the podcast
and what and this has become what I call a
front seat companion because I listened to my podcast while
in the car, and I'm so glued to this that
that that a normal thirty five minute trip to go
to work is done like in seconds, or it feels
like it. It's because of you, guys, because you draw
me into that storyline.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
That that means the world honestly to hear you say that,
Because yeah, we want people to be drawn in, because
it really is a wild story that I think is
important and worthwhile for people to hear of of a cult,
and and and specifically, I think our show is a
(05:01):
little bit different than what I've heard before about cults
because it takes the perspective of a young girl growing up,
and not just a young girl growing up, but a
young girl who gets put on this pedestal pressure put
on her and you really get to know her day
(05:21):
to day, what is it actually like to be inside
the cult and how does her psychology even change over
the years in the cult. So, yeah, we hope people
are drawn in that way.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
The visual painting that you present to the listeners when
talking about the ring, the ring that she got as
basically an early teen and it just barely fits over
the knuckles today, and yet she didn't take it off.
I could feel that ring on my own finger.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, it was amazing to see this ring that the
leader gave her and gave ten young maidens aged twelve
to twenty three when he chose them to be sort
of these nun like leaders of the church, these young girls,
and then had a spiritual marriage ceremony with them where
he essentially, for all intents and purposes, married these ten
(06:14):
girls and with veils, and he gave them each a
gold ring. And the fact that you see the ring
now and how small it is, it really hits you.
How she was just thirteen years old when her parents
gave her to the leader of their cult.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
One of the things that you talk about, and I
don't want to spoil the podcast at all, but the escape,
and inside my mind when I heard about the escape,
right away, I'm going, but did you escape? Because the
next step in your life, you can't just suddenly drop faith,
you can't drop that connectedness that even a cult has.
And that's where I went when I was listening to
that was her personal feelings about where she was and
(06:52):
did she feel alone?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah, that's really thoughtful of you to think that way,
because absolutely I think she did feel very alone, and
even in the process of leaving. I'll give that away
because there's so much more to the story beyond that,
But she it was a gradual process. She first had
to ask to leave this inner group, the Maidens, and
(07:19):
moved back in with her family, who was still part
of the group. Then from there she gradually interacted with
the outside world more, got her first job, and eventually
moved out of her parents and really extricated herself from
the whole situation. But it is interesting even you know,
the first time she went on an airplane after being
(07:41):
in the group. She hadn't been in an airplane before
with little TV monitors in the seats, and it blew
her mind. And she had never really seen a rom
com or anything since before being in the group, and
she watched one and she was just like, oh, my goodness,
this is amazing. And she didn't even know how to
interact with other people on the plane. And that's just
one example of how she had to relearn how to
(08:04):
interact with the world. And yes, she felt so alone,
but she gradually built a life and a full one
and a beautiful one. And I think it's a really
cool story to hear about you.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You put a picture inside my head in the way
of I wish I could have been a fly in
the wall when she walked into a modern day grocery
store with over one hundred thousand different things to choose from.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So true.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
And she started getting jobs as well. She was, you know,
working in bars and nanny ing and just working anyway
she could to start to make a living. And she
said that she was she felt so gullible because people
would say things to her and she couldn't tell if
they were joking are serious, because she was learning so
much about the outside world that like everything seemed outlandish
(08:52):
and crazy to her, and so she would miss jokes
they would go over her head because she didn't understand like,
oh no, that's that's part of sarcasm. This part is
the actual truth about the outside world. I mean it
was it was like she was encountering the world for
the first time.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Please do not move. There's more with Erica and Ellen
coming up next. The name of the podcast is the
Turning River Road. From Erica and Ellen Lance. There's a
powerful line that you guys share inside this and that
is they that saw into their tears shall reap enjoy
That that should be on a T shirt somewhere because
it really does resonate inside your soul and it helps
(09:31):
you become more aware about your own personal connections with people.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
H that that is an interesting quote to pull out.
And also, I mean, what's kind of spooky about it
is that it is even one that the cult leader
would use and say to At one moment he said
it to I think, if I'm remembering correctly, Lindsay and
(09:58):
her sister while they said in a meadow, And so
that that line kind of to me echoes throughout the
season and kind of sticks with you.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
You know, one of the things that I mean, if
somebody were to look at you and call you old flesh,
I don't know how you would handle it openly or
even spiritually, because I mean, but that's how this dude
got into the hearts of old of the young people.
And it's one of those where it's like you have
to become new, and it had to be with a
man of Christ. And it's like, I'm having a difficulty
(10:29):
trying to figure out the different levels of You're screwed
around with my mind, dude.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Oh absolutely, I mean I think he often he would
speak using versus from the Bible and use very cryptic language,
sometimes sometimes pulling from the Book of Revelation to kind
of confuse people, Like sometimes you could understand what he
was saying absolutely, and then other times you're trying to
figure out what am I supposed to do here? Like
(10:56):
one time Lindsay tells a story about Victor being a
set with her and another one of the ten Maidens,
and he would say, you need to go find the
white Stone and the bright morning Star lines from Revelation,
and it's like, Okay, what do you mean find the
white Stone? What does that mean? It's clearly like a metaphor.
But how am I supposed to prove that I have
somehow found this white stone to show that I'm worthy
(11:18):
of your favor again? And so then your mind just
goes in circles, and you're trying so hard to do
whatever you can to please him and have him not
be mad at you anymore, essentially, and so you end
up spending just constantly, You're waking time thinking about what
Victor has said. Is he disappointed in me today? Is
(11:38):
does he love me today? And how can I prove
my loyalty and fervor right away?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I want to say this isn't just about religion, because
there's a lot of martial arts instructors that are out
there trying to do the same exact thing. And I've
always I've always called martial arts just another form of
a cult, because everybody believes in that master or that sensey.
So I mean, this podcast opens up your eyes for
all things that are around us.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I think that is such a good point, and I'm
glad you bring that up, because I think in some
ways that's part of the purpose of our podcast in general,
is to tell these stories that are a little bit
of a reflection of communities that we all are a
part of, and they're you know, for you, maybe it's
martial arts. For somebody else, it's some other kind of
(12:26):
community they're a part of. But you notice, oh wow, Like,
how do these power dynamics come into play? And how
are people sometimes? I mean, sometimes you need hierarchy, but
how can sometimes certain types of hierarchy lead to toxic
or dangerous situations that lead people to be manipulated and
to do things that hurt others or hurt themselves. And
(12:49):
I think that's kind of the point, is to take
stock of to be more aware, to have that antenna
up what's happening in my own life. Maybe it's not
quite as extreme as that as the story, worry, but
what could be happening that we could lead me down
a path that I don't want to go down.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
How did you get Lindsey to sound so natural? Because
you know what it's like when you put a microphone
in front of people. They fake it up, is what
they do. And I don't hear any faking at all
when I hear her voice.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Well, I think, first of all, she's just very genuine
and she opened up very quickly, just wanting to tell
her story because she thinks it could help people to hear,
you know, learn from her story, and also know they're
not alone, because she knows that other people go through
different versions of similar experiences. But also I think what
(13:39):
was really special about this project is we got to
interview her so many times. I mean, we interviewed her
dozens of times to get hours and hours and hours
and hours of interview tape that then we've then edited
into this podcast series. But it helped us really try
to explore many different dimensions of how she felt throughout
the years that we covered in the story, because often
(14:02):
she had very conflicting feelings, you know, wanting to escape
as a young girl, not knowing how also really believing
what she's being told by her parents and the elders
around her and by Victor Bernard. And I think we're
so lucky that we got to spend nine months just
exploring this story with her and the other people we interviewed,
(14:22):
so that I don't know, I think hopefully we really
reach a sense of truth and just like real I
don't know, like you get to know Lindsey over the
course of the podcast, and that's what we tried to do.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You talk about having hours and hours of conversation. Okay,
so no from one podcast or to another. How far
into the journey did you realize we've got a story here.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
I have to say, I think we knew it right away.
I mean, I do think in some ways. I mean,
behind the scenes in production, we're kind of like, this
is going to be easy to make because because, wow,
what a story. Like when we heard the story, we
were like, we don't even have to do anything. It's fascinating,
(15:08):
it's riveting. It's like, what this happened and it ended
in twenty sixteen, it was so recent, it's just But
then I do think somewhere along the way, in those
many hours, it did get to a place where Lindsay,
the main character, opened up so much about the complex
(15:29):
feelings she felt around you, And I think that's when
I was like, oh, there's really something here, when she
was able to articulate that feeling of being abused but
both having feelings of love and admiration for the cult
leader and I just and also hearing her perspective from
a child's perspective growing up and what that really felt
(15:50):
like day to.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Day that cult leader in the way of I mean,
I mean when Lindsay says I don't know why I
love him, I just know everyone did. Oh my god,
kills up my spine.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
There are so many moments when we had chills. I'm
talking with her. I mean, and from the beginning, yeah,
we knew this was going to be a wild story,
but it's like every interview there was another twist or
turn that we didn't see coming. And yeah, I think
that line of I didn't know why I loved him,
I just knew everyone did. Really shows how groupthink can
affect you, especially when you're a kid. But I think
(16:26):
everyone in that group felt that way. Another person we interviewed, Christa,
talked about I think Aylen. You asked Krista, like, so
do you feel like people actually believe this or do
you think some people were pretending at times in the cult?
And Christa said, well, I certainly was. And I think
that's interesting too, is like sometimes everyone around you is
acting a certain way, so you're like, I guess I
(16:47):
need to do that too to be accepted. And sometimes
I think about how many people in that cult part
of them was pretending. But then it leads to this
group fervor that feels unstoppable and feels like, oh, this
is just simply the truth of the world, because everyone
believes it.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
When you create a well written, well performed podcast like this,
I mean, this is authentic journalism. You're going to get followers.
And that word followers to me really scares me because
of things like cults. How are you going to take
care of your followers so that you on your next
podcast will have them and they'll know that they're going
to get something in return that's in good faith.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
That's an interesting question. I mean, I do think our
quote followers are a little bit different and that they're listeners.
They listen to our series and they go along their way.
But I do think that something we try to do
in our storytelling is to have some nuance and take
(17:51):
some care in telling these stories in a way that's
sensitive and careful to listeners. And I hope you know,
in the future we can tell stories that continue to
engage listeners as well.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Where can people go to find out more about you?
Because I really want them to not only do this podcast,
but I want them to experience what you guys have
done to even get here.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Well.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Definitely do subscribe to the Turning River Road. It's really
in any podcast app And there are previous seasons. One
season about Mother Teresa's Nuns and one season about the
world of ballet and the New York City Ballet and
the cult like tendencies of those groups. And I think
the three seasons together, I mean, once you listen to
them back to back, you see all of these repeated themes,
(18:37):
and that has been one of the most mind blowing
parts of working on this project. But yeah, Aalen actually
hosts another podcast that is brand new coming out right
now called America's Crime Lab. That's about cold cases that
are currently being solved with new DNA technology. I mean,
we know DNA has been around for a while, but
(18:57):
it's reaching this new level of being able to extract
evidence from DNA and it's they're literally catching serial killers
using this new technology. So check out also America's Crime Lab.
If you want to hear another podcast with Alen hosting, well.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Will you'd be brilliant today?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Okay, thanks you too.
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