December 2, 2025 • 18 mins
Pod Crashing episode 418 with Vanessa Grigoriasdis host of the podcast Model Wars. On the surface, the modeling industry in the 80s was about parties and pretty clothes, but underneath the flash, there were drugs, sex, and violence. And Paul Fisher, a former straight-A student from the San Fernando Valley, rose to prominence amidst the turmoil. After a chance encounter with an alleged mobster, Paul suddenly found himself with a million dollars in funding and the chance to start a modeling agency in New York City. The city was then embroiled in a "model war" between industry titans Eileen Ford and John Casablancas, and Paul tried to make his mark. But even as Paul thrived in the party-heavy culture of the time, burning cash like a furnace, he came face to face with the darkest forces in the industry. As his shady backers put the screws to him, Paul faced down deadly consequences, trying to make a star while saving his soul. EPISODES AVAILABLE HERE:Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-model-wars-291069458/episode/introducing-model-wars-291069459/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm not just a podcaster. I'm a podcast connoisseur. That
means I listen, I study, I pay close attention. But
when it comes to variety, how many times have you
gone to somebody's streaming website and went nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Okay,
now you know why we created aero dot net a
r r OE dot net seventeen different styles of podcasts
(00:23):
or choose from enjoy your exploration. Hey, welcome back to
the conversation. Let's do some pod crashing. Episode number four
eighteen is with Vanessa Grigordi, Artists, host of the podcast
Model Wars. Vanessa, this this podcast is is such an experience.
I mean I went into it and not It didn't
take you very long to knock me upside the head
(00:45):
saying it's not what you think it is. We're going
to go a completely different direction and I'm going to
tell you some behind the scenes stuff that you don't know,
but you're going to want to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Oh awesome, Thank you so much. I appreciate it. That
was the point of the podcast. Let's know, not just
make a podcast that sounds like everybody else.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Is well the way that you bring it together. I
mean I would love to be in a meeting with you,
your directors, your producers, and everybody else that's involved, because
I mean I would love to just watch. I'm one
of those people that let me see you take down
the rock star stage because I want to see how
you piece that thing together.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, it would be a lot less interesting than you think,
because it was basically me and one writer and then
one sound designer and one reporter. Actually, we had a
woman who dealt with calling all of these underbelly people
from the nineteen eighties, all the people who were involved
in the glamorous world of modeling, which really had a
(01:39):
lot of drugs and guns and crazy stuff happening in it.
And she was like a college student. She was just like,
I can't even believe the stories these people are telling me.
Like now you want me to call this mob store? Okay?
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Well, the way that you set it up, I mean
it's like we all know who the big models were
of the nineteen eighties, we just don't know who the
bosses were and the model wars that were taking place
to get those girls to come to their team. And
you sit there you find yourself wanting to cheer on Paul.
But at the same time, Larry, he's got a problem.
He's got a problem with what Paul's.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Up to exactly. So you've got Paul Fisher, who's this
kid from like the San Fernando Valley right like, and he,
you know, he doesn't get on with his dad, so
he ends up hanging out with his friend's dad all
the time, who happens to be a divorcee hairdresser in
Manhattan Beach. So this guy's just dating up a store
and he's got all of these different girlfriends, and Paul says,
(02:34):
that's the life I want. That's the life I want.
And you know, cut to here is this guy in
New York City. He wants to start a modeling agency
and he's doing it with this guy's money who happens
to be an alleged mobster from Houston. You know, it's
a crazy situation. How does this guy, this kid, I mean,
(02:57):
he's really in his like, you know, twenties. He ends
up in New York saying I'm going to figure out
a way to get to the top of the modeling industry.
As he said, he didn't even know, like he'd never
even seen a copy of Bogue.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
See that's why this story inspires the hell out of me,
because we're talking about a total nobody that became somebody
and he was He was in charge of millions of dollars,
I mean people's campaigns. And when you start bringing in
the you know, who are the models being hired by
and stuff like that, that brings out the production director.
I mean, I'm going that's money. That's because if this
project doesn't work, someone's getting their ass fired. And that's it.
(03:31):
So I dig in deeper because I am familiar with
the advertising business.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well what do you think?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
God, you know, the thing about it is so is
And let me tell you where I instantly went when
I started hearing the story and the building of Paul,
I instantly went to the modern day times, thinking, you know,
these instacart people are going to be just like Paul.
They're gonna they're gonna start at the low bottom and
they're gonna want to get to the top as quickly
as possible because they think they can take over. There's
so much of what you experienced in this story from
the nineteen eighties that is going on to day. But
(04:00):
it's invisibly happening, just like the story with Paul Oh.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I agree, yeah, I mean now there's no journalism, so
like nobody knows anything about anything that's happening in the world, right,
So there's no question that like the hustler mentality lives
today and people are scrappy and they're trying their best
to like get to the top. But there's so much
(04:25):
immoral and crazy stuff that's happening. You know, there's there's
it's a it's all just like behind the veil. We
just don't see it because social media is full of lies.
Like it's just the people are just putting forward, like
whether it's like the good lighting on people's face that
makes them look like they're seen when they're sixty. You know,
(04:48):
it's just full of lies. I mean that's why thank
God for radio, thank God for like, you know, people
being able to talk to each other like real people.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Well see, that's the very reason why I don't like
doing video because I've had the video cameras inside my
studio and it's like, man, it takes away from the
personal one on one conversation. I'm watching the camera when
I should be listening to you.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I agree, I can't stand it. If I could not
put my face on Zoom every day of my life,
I would have a happy life. Why do people need
to see me? We used to do conference calls. I
don't get it. It's what's fun about this?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Nothing I got to tell you about Paul. You know,
as a business owner. The thing is is that when
he started burning money as fast as he did, that
kind of pissed me off. I mean, I mean, did
you feel the same thing, because it was like, dude,
this isn't even your money, and you're throwing this money
out to I understand you're building your team, but man,
that team is not going to be there if you
don't have the cash.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh absolutely, I mean you basically have this guy. He
says he's going to start a modeling agency. He comes
to New York. He's trying his best. He's like trying
to poach different people, right, So, you know, actually getting
a model to work for you who's already working for
another agent is not that hard, right, Like it requires
like you know, a night out at a nightclub and
(06:04):
some fancy bottles of champagne and you could sort of
like mess up any contract. Back then. Also, people didn't
sue the way that they do today, so nobody's really afraid.
But you know, you have this sky Paul. He's building
his modeling agency, but he's also doing like, you know,
lines of blow every place he can off of every
(06:25):
surface that is not a soft you know, corduroy surface
in New York City, and he is just like, Okay,
let's get a limo, let's get this, let's get this,
and you know, hopefully we'll live to you know, to
have this business another day. But if we don't, I
don't really care. I mean, not a really responsible way
(06:45):
of going about things.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Well, let me ask you this question, because I really
I mean, the one that keeps burning inside my heart
is what is there? Was there not a union to
protect these models? Because I coming from the radio industry,
and you sit there and you say, hey, I'm gonna
go work for Jojo across this and they're going to say, yeah,
you're gonna go over there in a year because we've
got a non compete clause. Is there not such a
thing as a noncompete clause in the world of modeling.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
No, there's not a goal for models. Models don't have
a union. No, even today, you know, so Model Wards
is really about the nineteen eighties, right, and the situation
with models back then. But today things are not that different. Like, yes,
you need to be sixteen to you know, walk in
the runway and blah blah blah blah blah. Okay having
(07:29):
sixteen Jesus, you can't do anything at sixteen in this country,
but apparently you can, you know, walk on. I mean,
it is true you can get a job at fourteen,
right in most states, I think, but it's there's there's
really not a lot of protection. I mean, you have
to understand, this is an industry mostly run by women
(07:49):
and gay men. They're mostly interested in the clothes. They're
really not the models. They don't really care. It doesn't
matter who this person is. All that matters is that
the dri on this silk dress is correct, right. I
don't care if she's starving herself. They don't care how
old she is really, they just want her to look
(08:10):
right for this piece of clothing. I mean, it's basically
a Malania Trump body, right, tall Eastern European that's that's
you know, that's that's that's who runs this business. It's
like the Eastern European tall girls. The people who run
the women and the gay men are the ones who
run the magazines.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You run the Who.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Are the ad agencies who are hiring the models. I
don't think the models really Yeah, do they care about
the high fashion? Nah? Probably not. They just care like
this feels cool. People are paying attention to me. I'm
making money, you know, I can live on my own
in New York City. This is sort of rad, like,
I think that's as far as that goes.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, because it was. I guess I was shocked
to learn. I don't know why I was shocked, but
that that. You know, I thought that New York was
the capital of all modeling and then you kind of
prove me wrong by saying, no, it's Paris. That's where
you want to be seen is in Paris.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Absolutely. Yeah, the Europeans still run the model in modeling business.
I mean they're you know, the most of the fast
we have. Of course in this country, we have Donna Karen,
we have Ralph Lauren, we have Stella McCarney. But like,
really the American fashion designers are really secondary. All the
big labels, all the ones that people want to have
(09:26):
on their tote bag or whatever. Prada, Chanelle Versace. All
of that happens in Europe. None of that happens here.
You know, all of those designers are there, and the
you know, like anything, it's like, why is the car
industry in Detroit or it used to be at least
like that's just where it was happening, and it's happening
(09:47):
in Paris, you know, and Milan.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Basically, we are just getting started. There's more with Vanessa
coming up next. Hey, welcome back to the conversation. The
podcast is Model Wars. Let's get back with Vanessa. When
Tom enters the picture, it's because Paul needs help. I mean,
did he rely on Tom? And how did he build
up that trust so quickly in someone like Tom?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
So? Yeah, So Paul is, you know, comes to New
York and he's trying to figure out how to start
his agency and who looks to this guy? And you
have this guy who sort of had problems for being like,
you know, lewd with models and nobody wanted to work
with him. And you know, Paul says like, I'm just
trying to build this business, like I don't really care
what your problems are to don't talk to the models,
(10:33):
but help me understand what's happening here, help me understand
the lingo how to like, you know, really get my
business off the ground. And so he takes this guy
for what he's good for.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
So I mean, but at the same time, you cannot
be help but be inspired by someone like Paul, because
at least Paul is doing his homework. He's not expecting
anybody to hand it to him. He at least is
trying to understand the different levels so that he can
become greater and get by John Casablant, because that seems
to be his number one goal. I need to get
by John.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I mean at the time, in the eighties, John Casablanca's
you know who recently had a documentary about him. He
was like the be all and end all of like
a certain kind of modeling agency. I'm talking about the
one who like goes out and parties all the time
and is you know, sort of living this like jet
set life. And that's what Paul wants. I mean, that
was like a new thing you could be in America
(11:30):
because you know, back in the day, like I'm talking
before the nineteen fifties, there really was no real model
like business to talk about it and was basically like
you are a lady of the night, or you were
like a lady in the house like and you, or
you were like a worker helping with the wars, or
you had like a small clothing business. There was not
(11:53):
this business. It was just like, yes, of course there
were models who came in and you could fit clothes
to them and blah blah blah for the dressmakers, but
there was nothing going on like this.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
He brought out a human side in the story. I
would love to know your team of two, when did
you decide to drop it into the story when it
comes to the subject of Deborah, because all of a sudden,
everything changes with my emotions and man if I wasn't
drawn into that part of the story.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Oh, I'm so glad. Yeah. So, I mean we have this,
you know, podcast, Model Wars. We're making about this model
agency who's sort of a reprehensible character, right, Like a
model agent is not like it's sort of like, you know,
mortgage broker. Like it's not like a guy that you're like, wow,
that's that really represents the best of America. You know,
you're like, okay, fine, taking his percentage. And he had
(12:47):
a sister who got very sick with cancer, and his
love and care for his sister and the way that
he you know, threw over his career in some ways
to take care of her, we felt was really the
key to the story, because you know, you can be
doing any kind of job, but family is the most
important thing. If you're there for your family, you're a
(13:07):
certain kind of person, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I just can't imagine him then going back to the
speedy life of New York City and the modeling after
being out there with Deborra, because I mean it's like,
you know that to me, is is the story? What
what did you use as a climbing ladder? How did
you get back into the mode when you knew where
your heart truly was.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I think that's why the story goes on for
you know, podcasts go on for a long time. It's
like four or five hours. So you know, he had
a lot of false starts. I mean, like anybody's life,
you decide, you know that you know what you should
be doing with your life, but it takes you a
long time to actually make the change and to actually
say I'm going to get out of this business. Right,
(13:47):
So he gets you know, it's like he keeps getting
pulled back in like that famous line, you know, and
you also have a lot of sex, and a lot
of drugs and a lot of like you know, we
all know people who just like love the night life,
and sometimes they've got real addiction problems, but sometimes they're
just like, this is a lot better than what I
(14:10):
have to deal with in my real life, like my
sister being sick.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
You know, well of all things that you brought in
that night life inside this podcast, because all of a sudden,
Paul is hanging out in the area of Andy Warhol
and other big names, and I'm sitting there as a
listener going, geez my god, it was that easy to
get into a party like that?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Or yeah, I mean, come on, well, it's when you
got a model on your arm, the world sort of
opens up to you, right, Like that's the way it
used to be. I mean, now that everybody's just at
home on their phones, I don't think it's the same thing.
But you know, now you can have an AI model,
nobody'll even know if it's like a real model not
(14:48):
a real model. But back then, the idea that you
could show up to a studio fifty four to area
with like these gorgeous girls with you, the velvet ropes
parted for you know, and everybody wanted to know who
you were.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
All right, you brought it up AI technology. Let's go
up forty years to twenty twenty five. How would Paul
and Larry handle an AI digitized world?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
My god, passed off. I think they'd be pissed off.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I mean, the problem was just like in the AI
digitized world, like suddenly, I don't know, a lot of
vice goes away because can you know, make any money
in any industry that's not like mining lithium. I don't
know what you do?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
You know, and AI technology is and everything. I'm gonna
admit something here that is so embarrassing. And I actually
asked chat GPT, I said, could you help me do
my show prep? And it said no. It literally said
no because it doesn't come with human emotion in the questions.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Oh interesting, Well, I'm surprised it would say that. I
thought it just says yes to everything.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Oh no, no, it denied me. It denied me. And
I thought to myself, Okay, this is a message from
somebody higher than And then chat GPT, Well.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Here's the thing that it doesn't have is like intuition
and being able, so just somebody's train of thought, right,
And that's where I think radio actually maybe like the
chat GPT killer, I actually think may be hard to
do spontaneous conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah. So, now, have any models reach out to you
to say, I have a Paul, but it is his
name's not Paul, but you need to know about my Paul.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I have gotten a couple of emails of people saying
like they want to tell their stories.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
The thing about Paul that's so special and what makes
this Model Wars podcast so special is he's really telling
the full truth, maybe as he saw it, but it's
warts and all right, like everything that happened back there.
It's not some sanitized documentary about how the supermodels loved
each other. And it's not some like woe is me
(16:58):
victimhood saying. It's just like the real story. So I
always need to know, like, are you really willing? Are
you ready to do this, because otherwise it's not really
worth the time.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
You know, well, you're right about that, Vanessa, because I mean,
because what you're doing with this storyline, it didn't just happen.
You had to create the path that has become the
thing that everybody for decades has crossed over the mountain.
I mean you're the creator of it.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. I mean
I feel like I'm, you know, bringing a part of
history to light. And this thing will like scan the
test of time because you know, you can listen to
this now, you can listen to it in ten years.
It's gonna be I believe it's like, you know, a
piece of cultural history. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
That's what I love about podcasting is that I'll go
back here there and look at my analytics because I'm
sick like that. And something from from Roy Clark from
a twenty fourteen interview is still pulling in people and
I'm going, are you are you really kidding me on this?
It's it's ten years old. Who cares?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
But they do?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
They really do care, and they will support I know.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I mean that's the things is like, you know, the
news disappears, but stories are forever.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
That's why I love you, man, because you're really bringing
us stories. And I hope that you continue to grow
with something like this because you're bringing authenticity to a
lifestyle that all of us. Oh we assume we.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Know exactly, yeah, and we need to tell those stories.
I mean, right now, we're in a moment in culture
where it feels like the past is irrelevant. You know,
the past, like that's how you learn from history, so
you don't make the same mistakes. You know.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Wow, you've got to come back to this show anytime
in the future. Twenty minutes with you is like scratching
the surface. It's not even digging in.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Oh, I'm down with any time you want to talk,
let's do it.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Will you be brilliant today? Okay, Vanessa, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Everybody listen to Model Wars
I'm not just a podcaster. I'm a podcast connoisseur. That
means I listen, I study, I pay close attention. But
when it comes to variety, how many times have you
gone to somebody's streaming website and went nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Okay,
now you know why we created aero dot net a
r r OE dot net seventeen different styles of podcasts
(00:23):
or choose from enjoy your exploration. Hey, welcome back to
the conversation. Let's do some pod crashing. Episode number four
eighteen is with Vanessa Grigordi, Artists, host of the podcast
Model Wars. Vanessa, this this podcast is is such an experience.
I mean I went into it and not It didn't
take you very long to knock me upside the head
(00:45):
saying it's not what you think it is. We're going
to go a completely different direction and I'm going to
tell you some behind the scenes stuff that you don't know,
but you're going to want to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Oh awesome, Thank you so much. I appreciate it. That
was the point of the podcast. Let's know, not just
make a podcast that sounds like everybody else.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Is well the way that you bring it together. I
mean I would love to be in a meeting with you,
your directors, your producers, and everybody else that's involved, because
I mean I would love to just watch. I'm one
of those people that let me see you take down
the rock star stage because I want to see how
you piece that thing together.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, it would be a lot less interesting than you think,
because it was basically me and one writer and then
one sound designer and one reporter. Actually, we had a
woman who dealt with calling all of these underbelly people
from the nineteen eighties, all the people who were involved
in the glamorous world of modeling, which really had a
(01:39):
lot of drugs and guns and crazy stuff happening in it.
And she was like a college student. She was just like,
I can't even believe the stories these people are telling me.
Like now you want me to call this mob store? Okay?
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Well, the way that you set it up, I mean
it's like we all know who the big models were
of the nineteen eighties, we just don't know who the
bosses were and the model wars that were taking place
to get those girls to come to their team. And
you sit there you find yourself wanting to cheer on Paul.
But at the same time, Larry, he's got a problem.
He's got a problem with what Paul's.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Up to exactly. So you've got Paul Fisher, who's this
kid from like the San Fernando Valley right like, and he,
you know, he doesn't get on with his dad, so
he ends up hanging out with his friend's dad all
the time, who happens to be a divorcee hairdresser in
Manhattan Beach. So this guy's just dating up a store
and he's got all of these different girlfriends, and Paul says,
(02:34):
that's the life I want. That's the life I want.
And you know, cut to here is this guy in
New York City. He wants to start a modeling agency
and he's doing it with this guy's money who happens
to be an alleged mobster from Houston. You know, it's
a crazy situation. How does this guy, this kid, I mean,
(02:57):
he's really in his like, you know, twenties. He ends
up in New York saying I'm going to figure out
a way to get to the top of the modeling industry.
As he said, he didn't even know, like he'd never
even seen a copy of Bogue.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
See that's why this story inspires the hell out of me,
because we're talking about a total nobody that became somebody
and he was He was in charge of millions of dollars,
I mean people's campaigns. And when you start bringing in
the you know, who are the models being hired by
and stuff like that, that brings out the production director.
I mean, I'm going that's money. That's because if this
project doesn't work, someone's getting their ass fired. And that's it.
(03:31):
So I dig in deeper because I am familiar with
the advertising business.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Well what do you think?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
God, you know, the thing about it is so is
And let me tell you where I instantly went when
I started hearing the story and the building of Paul,
I instantly went to the modern day times, thinking, you know,
these instacart people are going to be just like Paul.
They're gonna they're gonna start at the low bottom and
they're gonna want to get to the top as quickly
as possible because they think they can take over. There's
so much of what you experienced in this story from
the nineteen eighties that is going on to day. But
(04:00):
it's invisibly happening, just like the story with Paul Oh.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I agree, yeah, I mean now there's no journalism, so
like nobody knows anything about anything that's happening in the world, right,
So there's no question that like the hustler mentality lives
today and people are scrappy and they're trying their best
to like get to the top. But there's so much
(04:25):
immoral and crazy stuff that's happening. You know, there's there's
it's a it's all just like behind the veil. We
just don't see it because social media is full of lies.
Like it's just the people are just putting forward, like
whether it's like the good lighting on people's face that
makes them look like they're seen when they're sixty. You know,
(04:48):
it's just full of lies. I mean that's why thank
God for radio, thank God for like, you know, people
being able to talk to each other like real people.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Well see, that's the very reason why I don't like
doing video because I've had the video cameras inside my
studio and it's like, man, it takes away from the
personal one on one conversation. I'm watching the camera when
I should be listening to you.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I agree, I can't stand it. If I could not
put my face on Zoom every day of my life,
I would have a happy life. Why do people need
to see me? We used to do conference calls. I
don't get it. It's what's fun about this?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Nothing I got to tell you about Paul. You know,
as a business owner. The thing is is that when
he started burning money as fast as he did, that
kind of pissed me off. I mean, I mean, did
you feel the same thing, because it was like, dude,
this isn't even your money, and you're throwing this money
out to I understand you're building your team, but man,
that team is not going to be there if you
don't have the cash.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh absolutely, I mean you basically have this guy. He
says he's going to start a modeling agency. He comes
to New York. He's trying his best. He's like trying
to poach different people, right, So, you know, actually getting
a model to work for you who's already working for
another agent is not that hard, right, Like it requires
like you know, a night out at a nightclub and
(06:04):
some fancy bottles of champagne and you could sort of
like mess up any contract. Back then. Also, people didn't
sue the way that they do today, so nobody's really afraid.
But you know, you have this sky Paul. He's building
his modeling agency, but he's also doing like, you know,
lines of blow every place he can off of every
(06:25):
surface that is not a soft you know, corduroy surface
in New York City, and he is just like, Okay,
let's get a limo, let's get this, let's get this,
and you know, hopefully we'll live to you know, to
have this business another day. But if we don't, I
don't really care. I mean, not a really responsible way
(06:45):
of going about things.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Well, let me ask you this question, because I really
I mean, the one that keeps burning inside my heart
is what is there? Was there not a union to
protect these models? Because I coming from the radio industry,
and you sit there and you say, hey, I'm gonna
go work for Jojo across this and they're going to say, yeah,
you're gonna go over there in a year because we've
got a non compete clause. Is there not such a
thing as a noncompete clause in the world of modeling.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
No, there's not a goal for models. Models don't have
a union. No, even today, you know, so Model Wards
is really about the nineteen eighties, right, and the situation
with models back then. But today things are not that different. Like, yes,
you need to be sixteen to you know, walk in
the runway and blah blah blah blah blah. Okay having
(07:29):
sixteen Jesus, you can't do anything at sixteen in this country,
but apparently you can, you know, walk on. I mean,
it is true you can get a job at fourteen,
right in most states, I think, but it's there's there's
really not a lot of protection. I mean, you have
to understand, this is an industry mostly run by women
(07:49):
and gay men. They're mostly interested in the clothes. They're
really not the models. They don't really care. It doesn't
matter who this person is. All that matters is that
the dri on this silk dress is correct, right. I
don't care if she's starving herself. They don't care how
old she is really, they just want her to look
(08:10):
right for this piece of clothing. I mean, it's basically
a Malania Trump body, right, tall Eastern European that's that's
you know, that's that's that's who runs this business. It's
like the Eastern European tall girls. The people who run
the women and the gay men are the ones who
run the magazines.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You run the Who.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Are the ad agencies who are hiring the models. I
don't think the models really Yeah, do they care about
the high fashion? Nah? Probably not. They just care like
this feels cool. People are paying attention to me. I'm
making money, you know, I can live on my own
in New York City. This is sort of rad, like,
I think that's as far as that goes.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, because it was. I guess I was shocked
to learn. I don't know why I was shocked, but
that that. You know, I thought that New York was
the capital of all modeling and then you kind of
prove me wrong by saying, no, it's Paris. That's where
you want to be seen is in Paris.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Absolutely. Yeah, the Europeans still run the model in modeling business.
I mean they're you know, the most of the fast
we have. Of course in this country, we have Donna Karen,
we have Ralph Lauren, we have Stella McCarney. But like,
really the American fashion designers are really secondary. All the
big labels, all the ones that people want to have
(09:26):
on their tote bag or whatever. Prada, Chanelle Versace. All
of that happens in Europe. None of that happens here.
You know, all of those designers are there, and the
you know, like anything, it's like, why is the car
industry in Detroit or it used to be at least
like that's just where it was happening, and it's happening
(09:47):
in Paris, you know, and Milan.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Basically, we are just getting started. There's more with Vanessa
coming up next. Hey, welcome back to the conversation. The
podcast is Model Wars. Let's get back with Vanessa. When
Tom enters the picture, it's because Paul needs help. I mean,
did he rely on Tom? And how did he build
up that trust so quickly in someone like Tom?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
So? Yeah, So Paul is, you know, comes to New
York and he's trying to figure out how to start
his agency and who looks to this guy? And you
have this guy who sort of had problems for being like,
you know, lewd with models and nobody wanted to work
with him. And you know, Paul says like, I'm just
trying to build this business, like I don't really care
what your problems are to don't talk to the models,
(10:33):
but help me understand what's happening here, help me understand
the lingo how to like, you know, really get my
business off the ground. And so he takes this guy
for what he's good for.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
So I mean, but at the same time, you cannot
be help but be inspired by someone like Paul, because
at least Paul is doing his homework. He's not expecting
anybody to hand it to him. He at least is
trying to understand the different levels so that he can
become greater and get by John Casablant, because that seems
to be his number one goal. I need to get
by John.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I mean at the time, in the eighties, John Casablanca's
you know who recently had a documentary about him. He
was like the be all and end all of like
a certain kind of modeling agency. I'm talking about the
one who like goes out and parties all the time
and is you know, sort of living this like jet
set life. And that's what Paul wants. I mean, that
was like a new thing you could be in America
(11:30):
because you know, back in the day, like I'm talking
before the nineteen fifties, there really was no real model
like business to talk about it and was basically like
you are a lady of the night, or you were
like a lady in the house like and you, or
you were like a worker helping with the wars, or
you had like a small clothing business. There was not
(11:53):
this business. It was just like, yes, of course there
were models who came in and you could fit clothes
to them and blah blah blah for the dressmakers, but
there was nothing going on like this.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
He brought out a human side in the story. I
would love to know your team of two, when did
you decide to drop it into the story when it
comes to the subject of Deborah, because all of a sudden,
everything changes with my emotions and man if I wasn't
drawn into that part of the story.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Oh, I'm so glad. Yeah. So, I mean we have this,
you know, podcast, Model Wars. We're making about this model
agency who's sort of a reprehensible character, right, Like a
model agent is not like it's sort of like, you know,
mortgage broker. Like it's not like a guy that you're like, wow,
that's that really represents the best of America. You know,
you're like, okay, fine, taking his percentage. And he had
(12:47):
a sister who got very sick with cancer, and his
love and care for his sister and the way that
he you know, threw over his career in some ways
to take care of her, we felt was really the
key to the story, because you know, you can be
doing any kind of job, but family is the most
important thing. If you're there for your family, you're a
(13:07):
certain kind of person, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I just can't imagine him then going back to the
speedy life of New York City and the modeling after
being out there with Deborra, because I mean it's like,
you know that to me, is is the story? What
what did you use as a climbing ladder? How did
you get back into the mode when you knew where
your heart truly was.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I think that's why the story goes on for
you know, podcasts go on for a long time. It's
like four or five hours. So you know, he had
a lot of false starts. I mean, like anybody's life,
you decide, you know that you know what you should
be doing with your life, but it takes you a
long time to actually make the change and to actually
say I'm going to get out of this business. Right,
(13:47):
So he gets you know, it's like he keeps getting
pulled back in like that famous line, you know, and
you also have a lot of sex, and a lot
of drugs and a lot of like you know, we
all know people who just like love the night life,
and sometimes they've got real addiction problems, but sometimes they're
just like, this is a lot better than what I
(14:10):
have to deal with in my real life, like my
sister being sick.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
You know, well of all things that you brought in
that night life inside this podcast, because all of a sudden,
Paul is hanging out in the area of Andy Warhol
and other big names, and I'm sitting there as a
listener going, geez my god, it was that easy to
get into a party like that?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Or yeah, I mean, come on, well, it's when you
got a model on your arm, the world sort of
opens up to you, right, Like that's the way it
used to be. I mean, now that everybody's just at
home on their phones, I don't think it's the same thing.
But you know, now you can have an AI model,
nobody'll even know if it's like a real model not
(14:48):
a real model. But back then, the idea that you
could show up to a studio fifty four to area
with like these gorgeous girls with you, the velvet ropes
parted for you know, and everybody wanted to know who
you were.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
All right, you brought it up AI technology. Let's go
up forty years to twenty twenty five. How would Paul
and Larry handle an AI digitized world?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
My god, passed off. I think they'd be pissed off.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I mean, the problem was just like in the AI
digitized world, like suddenly, I don't know, a lot of
vice goes away because can you know, make any money
in any industry that's not like mining lithium. I don't
know what you do?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
You know, and AI technology is and everything. I'm gonna
admit something here that is so embarrassing. And I actually
asked chat GPT, I said, could you help me do
my show prep? And it said no. It literally said
no because it doesn't come with human emotion in the questions.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Oh interesting, Well, I'm surprised it would say that. I
thought it just says yes to everything.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Oh no, no, it denied me. It denied me. And
I thought to myself, Okay, this is a message from
somebody higher than And then chat GPT, Well.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Here's the thing that it doesn't have is like intuition
and being able, so just somebody's train of thought, right,
And that's where I think radio actually maybe like the
chat GPT killer, I actually think may be hard to
do spontaneous conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Yeah. So, now, have any models reach out to you
to say, I have a Paul, but it is his
name's not Paul, but you need to know about my Paul.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I have gotten a couple of emails of people saying
like they want to tell their stories.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
You know.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
The thing about Paul that's so special and what makes
this Model Wars podcast so special is he's really telling
the full truth, maybe as he saw it, but it's
warts and all right, like everything that happened back there.
It's not some sanitized documentary about how the supermodels loved
each other. And it's not some like woe is me
(16:58):
victimhood saying. It's just like the real story. So I
always need to know, like, are you really willing? Are
you ready to do this, because otherwise it's not really
worth the time.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
You know, well, you're right about that, Vanessa, because I mean,
because what you're doing with this storyline, it didn't just happen.
You had to create the path that has become the
thing that everybody for decades has crossed over the mountain.
I mean you're the creator of it.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. I mean
I feel like I'm, you know, bringing a part of
history to light. And this thing will like scan the
test of time because you know, you can listen to
this now, you can listen to it in ten years.
It's gonna be I believe it's like, you know, a
piece of cultural history. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
That's what I love about podcasting is that I'll go
back here there and look at my analytics because I'm
sick like that. And something from from Roy Clark from
a twenty fourteen interview is still pulling in people and
I'm going, are you are you really kidding me on this?
It's it's ten years old. Who cares?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
But they do?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
They really do care, and they will support I know.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I mean that's the things is like, you know, the
news disappears, but stories are forever.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
That's why I love you, man, because you're really bringing
us stories. And I hope that you continue to grow
with something like this because you're bringing authenticity to a
lifestyle that all of us. Oh we assume we.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Know exactly, yeah, and we need to tell those stories.
I mean, right now, we're in a moment in culture
where it feels like the past is irrelevant. You know,
the past, like that's how you learn from history, so
you don't make the same mistakes. You know.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Wow, you've got to come back to this show anytime
in the future. Twenty minutes with you is like scratching
the surface. It's not even digging in.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Oh, I'm down with any time you want to talk,
let's do it.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Will you be brilliant today? Okay, Vanessa, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Everybody listen to Model Wars
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