December 5, 2025 • 18 mins
Pod Crashing episode 420 with Dax Develon Ross from the podcast Crying Wolf. Crying Wolf is a gripping true crime podcast that follows the story of Lee Harris, who was wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to 90 years in prison after a coerced confession. In prison, he formed a deep bond with fellow inmate Robert, who vowed to clear Lee's name. After two decades of relentless effort, exposing corrupt detectives, prison informants, and with the help of a determined pro bono defense attorney, Robert succeeded. In 2023, Lee walked free-only to die suddenly a few months later. This podcast delves into the chilling legacy of Detective Richard Zuley, notorious for extracting false confessions, and the deep-seated corruption that plagues Chicago's justice system. With Lee gone, Robert is determined to continue the fight, exposing the city's dark history and pursuing justice for the wrongfully convicted. Join us as we unravel a story of friendship, betrayal, and the quest for redemption. Episodes available here: Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-crying-wolf-293793384/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's actually been a fun adventure collecting all the conversations
I have since twenty sixteen, with those that have been
featured on NBC's The Voice. Now the question is can
we put them all in one place and not let
them be forgotten in history? Yeah you can. It's called
arro dot net a R r oe dot net. Look
for that voice. Enjoy the exploration. Hey, thanks for coming
(00:20):
back to the conversation. Let's do some pod crashing. Episode
number four twenty is with Dax deviln Ross from the
podcast Crying Wolf. Dax, I love your name, man. Why
didn't you market that and put it up on like
a rock star tour or something like that, and you know,
make your way around the world with Madonna or even Bieber.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Right, you know what I mean? Well, listen, there's there's
Dax Shephard. He's you know, he's out there doing his thing.
You know, there's a whole story about these this. There's
a few Daxes out there, and I've encountered a bunch
of them. There's a new generation, but a bunch of
us I found at one point, I know, we got
to get into the story, but at one point someone
put together a Twitter group and added me to it.
This is years ago, and it was for all the
Daxes that and I do think that there were a
(00:58):
bunch of us that were probably born around the same
time whose parents saw the same movie and named us Stax.
So that's what that's what, you know, a little bit
of the story.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Your podcast, Crying Wolf.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
It really does get into an emotional place because one
of the things that you know, we live in this
age where it seems like that everybody's got a podcast,
but my god, yours is the one that's sticking out
right now, and it's like, what, what do you think
is the secret sauce that you put into it?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Well, first of all, thank you. You know, there's a
lot of incredible work out there, and you know, I'm
impressed in aught every day by the things people are doing,
the stories people are telling, and the way these folks
are expanding the medium. And you're right though, there is
a out there in the world. I think, honestly, man,
you got to get out and do some real reporting. Yes,
I think, I mean, I mean, this is no disparagement
on folks, but I think there's a there's a you know,
(01:44):
it's the podcast medium has enabled many of us to
set it up and just get it going and start talking,
you know, do we can do interviews, but to go
out and do some footwork and get out in the
world and get doing some deep research and talking to
people and putting together soundscapes and really trying to pull
We had to go through twenty years of prison interviews,
between prison conversations between Robert and Lee. I mean, this
(02:09):
is a level of work in detail that my production
team at Chalk and Blade did that. I'm just like
in awe of myself. I am a small part of
this story and just grateful to been part of it. Well.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I love your honesty and transparency on that when you
call yourself something small, but yet you are the main
driving force behind it. But I mean, but a lot
of people don't have these beautiful teams such as yours. Yea,
how you're able to keep it together because I mean,
we live in twenty twenty five. There are a lot
of egos out here.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, you know, I mean, my goodness, I think for me,
I come to this work from print. You know, I've
toiled away in the you know, in that old analog
world for a long time, and so all I know
is deep storytelling and all I know, and someone has
told me recently because this has been a year that
I've rediscovered my own voice in a lot of ways,
(02:56):
and this story is a part of it, which was
that you do it for the people who are out there.
If you only do it thinking that the if you measure.
If your only measure is if you get to the
million people listening and x number of followers, then you know,
good luck with that. But that's not going to be
most people. But if you're doing it because you believe
that there's somebody in a corner of the world that
really is going to be touched by something you are doing,
(03:16):
and you believe in that, then that's something different. And
I'll say I'll add this last piece. You know, I
always I'm being transparent like this, I I you know,
someone like me doesn't. I don't get paid a lot
of money to a project like this. You have to
really care about it. You have to care about it,
and you can't do it for that thing other than
the fact that, like, I have an opportunity to tell
a really powerful and important story and I'm gonna damn
(03:37):
well do the best thing I can do and tell
it as truthfully as I can.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
One of the things that you do inside this is
that you kind of really open up the eyes of
anybody who might be you know, in prison or on
the outside, going how can I get my guy my
woman outside of prison? Because I don't know what we're
doing right today, but a lot of people are coming out.
What is it that you saw that is opening a
lot of doing or that we couldn't do back in
(04:01):
the seventies or eighties.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I mean, I mean the short answer is like forensics,
you know, short answer is DNA, But the longer answer is,
I think momentum and movements. You know, once momentums. Once
a momentum becomes a movement, a movement becomes a force
of its own, and it starts to you know, capture
different people who may not have always been the most extreme,
(04:24):
like progressive, like this kind of a movement, I think
captures people who are even more who are more mainstream
in terms of their views regarding the criminal legal system,
because I think all of us want to make sure
we get it right. All of us want to make
sure we get it right because there before the grace
of God goes us, you know, and these kinds of stories.
I think tell us that over and over again, like
(04:45):
this guy was walking down the street. This guy happened
to be doing this this it could happen. You think
it may not be you, but it could happen. So
I think it's the it's the movement, it's the momentum
that becomes a movement. I think it's the technology and
the forensics, and I think it's the broader awareness that
we all have because of the storytelling that people have
been done doing for so long. Now, over twenty some years,
people have been telling stories, and I think it's helped
(05:07):
us a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You have planted your listeners into the city of Chicago
nineteen eighty nine, and you know what, My wife is
from Chicago and she knows this story all too well.
And it becomes you know, the star witness is your
star suspect, and it's like, oh my god. You know
if that doesn't sound like Hollywood, that's not supposed to
happen in real life.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Oh done. It's you know. I think that's the thing
that So, you know what drew me to it because
I had just finished another podcast when I was approached
about working on this. I just finished the one on
the burden, and we had done four year deep dive.
I was like, I'm done. I can't do any more
of these wrongful convictions. That just too gut wrenching. And
then I got this invitation and I saw that piece,
(05:48):
the crying wolf element of it, which is a guy
Lee Harris is not. You know, he doesn't have to
clean his hands in the world. Let's be clear. He
would you know, he'd be happy to sell up. But
he'd be happy to sell up, sell some you know,
an unaware and entering Chicago, uh a bag of a
regano and say it's say it's something else. He'd be
happy to do some little little jive hustle to get over.
But he wasn't a He was a petty a petty criminal,
(06:10):
a petty thief. He was not a murderer. He was
not a killer, and that was never part of his
mo So I think, like, you know, it's a it's a,
it's a it's a. This story is is really powerful
because it was powerful to me. It was because of
the friendship between him and Robert. It was powerful because
the way things flipped. It's actually it's frightening. This guy
(06:33):
goes from being star witness, meaning being he's being put
up in a hotel by the detectives. He's being whined
and dying for back of a better way of describing it,
he's being brought. He's there having it. He does twenty
two statements for them, for the police as a witness,
and then one day he becomes the guy. Can you imagine?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
No, no, no, we I you know more than most
of us, but we all fear that moment where you know,
wrong place at the wrong time and sorry, the rest
of your life is now. I don't know you're gonna
get You're gonna get lost in a system right now?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Hm. I mean he's he's very expendable. He was an
expendable person, unfortunately, and that's what I think happens quite often.
But I'll stop there.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Wow, Wow, you know you talk about that friendship and
right away and maybe this is just the empathy or
the compassion coming out of my soul and it's like, wow, now,
all of a sudden, that friendship is visible. Now. Now,
I've never been to prison. I don't know what prison
is like. But when I hear that things are visible,
you know, I have to take a second and a
third breath.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
H Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's important
to even recognize, like Robert Chatler was this young guy
who got himself into he became an addict, for the
lack of a better way of describing it, and he
became an addict, and his addiction became so ferocious that
he was, you know, stealing anything and everything from everybody
(07:52):
in his life, selling anything and everything. And he was
a young man, early twenties, and his life had just
taken a really, really hard wrong turn and he ends
up in prison, and he has some he actually has
a couple of cellis before he meets Lee that are
kind of frightening guys. But when he meets Lee and
he enters the cell with Lee, Lee shows him, shows
him a kindness that no one has shown him in
a long time, you know, and it's simple kindness, like
(08:16):
you can use my radio his I don't. Lee didn't
smoke himself, but he always kept a pack of cigarettes
because that was currency. He gives these. He would give
cigarettes to Robert because he knew Robert needed him. They
would cook together, you know, they would they would do
all sorts of things. And in many ways, Lee is
twenty years older than this guy means they're not They
(08:36):
wouldn't have been friends on the street. It's a black
guy from the projects, a white guy from the suburbs,
and they find in a bond and ultimately, you know,
the funny thing is Lee actually kicks him out. Lee
actually asks to have him kicked out of the cell
because he smokes too much. But even when even when
Robert was leaving, even when Robert was walking out of
the prison, he stopped and told Lee, I'm gonna look
(08:57):
into your case. And he kept and he kept his.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Damn word, please do not move. There's more with Dax
Stevelin Ross coming up next, the name of his podcast,
Crying Wolf. We are back with podcaster Dax Steveln Ross.
Maybe this is just my judgmental self, because we're all judgers,
and that is when when they were moving, Robert sell closer.
I'm gonna tell you, I mean, in my heart, I'm
(09:21):
going what are they up to?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
What are they doing?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Are they going to try to do something? Are they
gonna try to get information? What's going on? You know,
I mean all of a sudden, you know, you're a
part of an episode of Perry Mason.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny because you know, Lee was already
in largely because of a quote unquote jail house snitch.
And that's a big part of the story is that
there was a guy he actually never met, but who
said that he met, and he met Lee while they
were he was in jail before he was actually convicted,
and Lee confessed to him. So this had already happened
(09:50):
to Lee. Somebody had already like tried to use the
jail house snitch against him and been successful. And it
was only because Lee's lawyers went through and found the
FBI had paid this same informant in previous cases. That
this guy his name was David Toles. The only ways
they were able to start to really open up Lee's
case again is because they were able to find out
(10:11):
and pinpoint the fact that this jailhouse informant was on
the payroll basically of the FBI, and that the city
of Chicago knew about it and held it as and
did not with and withheld that information from Lee's attorneys.
So there was a Brady violation. For those of who
know anything about Brady violations, you're not allowed to withhold
information that could be exculpatory at least could be instrumental
(10:32):
for the other side, and they had done so. They
knew this guy had been paid by the FBI in
the past for his jailhouse informant information, and they didn't
tell Lee's attorneys. That became very uncritical in opening up
Lee's opportunity to go to prison.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
See now, now, come on, be honest with me, Dax.
Would you trust anybody if they went through that, because
all of a sudden, my trust factor factor is down
and I wouldn't know where to jump from there, because
it's like, Okay, I'm seeing something happen here, I'm feeling something.
But man, will trust is everything to me and it's
not always right though.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean the reality is that, like you know,
poor when Robert first started, and so Robert, you know,
he was able to get his hands on all the transcripts,
you know, very back in the early two thousand, he
would pour through them. He found out about this David
Toles character, he found out about him a long time ago.
But it was the fact of the matter to your point,
(11:25):
even when he found out that David Toles had been
basically put up to and was actually willing to go
on record and say he had been you know, paid
or if you know, by the police for his for
his testimony against Lee Least Lee's attorney said, that's that's valueless.
No one will care. It's actually not significant because because
(11:46):
David Toles was not a credible person. Right, so your
point is actually true, Like you're right, Like trust is
everything and credibility is everything, and David Tolds had no credibility.
Even so, even when he tried to recant his statement
in the early two thousands, the courts like, whatever nobody cares,
doesn't matter because you are not credible.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
So now, but but but what now?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
When you said that you know that that doing these
these you know, investigative reports of getting know, freeing people
from prison and stuff has taken its toll on you.
Let me ask you this deep inside, because we all
deal with post production blues as podcasters, how did you
get beyond that? Are you a d fragger in the in?
Are you going in there and asking yourself the own
your own questions and then question and the answers because
you've got you've got to replenish that soul before you
(12:28):
jump into that next story.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You're gonna love this, You're gonna find this hilarious and
maybe I shouldn't say's but gonna say. I actually, as
soon as I get off the call with you guys,
say I got to go to the studio and record
the two last the bonus episodes for this project. Because
so I haven't even got to that point, but I
can anticipate it. I'm actually feeling I'm going to the
studio for the last time in a couple of hours
and I'm gonna have to now to your point and deal.
(12:52):
I don't even listen to the podcast. I can't listen
to it, you know, And I don't know how you feel.
I don't both. I don't like my voice, but whatever,
that's the different story altogether. But I had struggle with
it because I think with your naming is that it
comes like there's stuff that comes up because you just
get through it. You just go in the studio, you
do the work. But you're right, man, it's stuff that
you got to sit with, and I know it's going
to hit me. I know it's gonna hit me, but
(13:12):
I'm not even gonna I can't go there yet. I
can't even let myself go there because I'm not done.
You know. The second story, the bonus episodes are actually,
if you will, you know, indulge me for a moment.
Last week in Chicago, there was a hearing involving a
guy named Anthony Garrett who's been in prison as well
for thirty some years for a crime that happened in
nineteen ninety two, the killing of a young boy named
(13:32):
Dontrell Davis, seven years old. He was killed in the
Kaberini being projects Garrett had always been. He was convicted
of the crime same detective as Lee Harris. He had
the same detective, and Garrett had always maintained that he
had been tortured and his conviction had been coerced. So
this detective, his name is Zuli, who was actually Lee
(13:54):
Harris's detective as well, also goes to Guantanamo Bay in
the early two thousand. Yes, and he is the main detective,
or he's the main interrogator of a young of a
man named Mohammadu Slahi, who is the star of a
film that came out a few years ago called The
Mauritanian starring Jerdy Foster and Benedict Cumberbatch. Right, so, people,
this is a wild story that we're talking about. In
(14:16):
any event, this case is still being litigated right now
in Chicago and slaw. He actually testified last week on
Behalf of Garrett to show and to talk about the
torture he experienced at the hands of the same detective.
Point of the matter is that this is live. We
are still waiting for the determination of that hearing, and
(14:36):
the last two bonus episodes are all about this what's
gonna happen to Anthony Garrett who's been in prison for
thirty some years for a crime he said he didn't
commit and actually was. You know, so this is this
is I'm in it man. I can just say I'm
in it minute, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
And I was gonna save this or maybe not even
go to it.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
But because you have touched on it, you know, you
can't have a true crime podcast until you have a
corrupt detective.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And my god, you're the one that brought it, so
there you go.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
So again, you cannot have a true crime until you
have a corrupt detective.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, man, listen, you know, in my last podcast, we
had a guy named Scarcella, you know, Louis Scarcella. It
was quite a character, quite a character, you know, unbelievable,
and he cooperated and he was not just a cool
he wasn't he was an enthusiastic voice in the project.
In this in this story, it's the complete opposite. Zuli.
(15:28):
Detective Zuli has his He's wanted no parts of the story.
He's never wanted to go on record. He's been able
to even avoid any kind of he's not even been
able to be They've not even been able to sit
down and do an interview with him. He's avoided all
of that. And he's always said and maintained, he's always
maintained that he did nothing wrong. And so you can't
even actually unpack the extent to which he actually engaged
(15:49):
in full on And I'm not even going to go
on record and saying that we have he has this alleged.
At this point, I have to legally say it's all alleged.
But there are a number of cases, a number cases
involving this guy, and all of them point to the
same sort of behavior, meaning like he doesn't he's not
the physical one. He's not the guy who goes in
and beats people up. There was a guy named John
(16:10):
Birds who would actually he was a physical abuser of people,
you know, and interrogation processes, this wasn't the same thing
with Zuli. Zuli was much more psychological. He was much
more at least in his estimation, sophisticated in the way
he operated. He would leave the room, at least that's
what the story is. He would leave the room and
have other people come in and do the physical violence,
(16:30):
and then he would come back in. You know. So
this is the thing, and that's part of what happened
in Guantonimo as well. The same story that Anthony Garrett
is telling in nineteen ninety two in Chicago is the
story that Slah he tells from two thousand and one,
two thousand and three, two thousand and four in Guantanamo Bay,
and it's about the same guy comes in. He's white, charismatic,
(16:52):
he's compelling, and he leaves the room and people come
in and do the dirty work and he comes back
in the room, right, and that's his.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, you know, I gotta ask you a question, and
this is between a listener and a podcaster, and that
is is that how does your stomach not get upset?
Because in listening to it and in experiencing the podcast,
I do get an upset stomach because you get me
so worked up on this, But that's your passion, that
that is your emotion, that is your drive to, like
you said, dig into the story. But how do you
(17:20):
stay with no twisted tummy?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
M I think honestly, man, you know, I mean it's
gonna sound a little bit hokey, but you know you
have it as well. Like Ero. You know you you're
fortunate enough to be you know, have some some gifts
in the world. Mine one of mine is listening deeply
and being able to help translate people's stories. So I
think I sit in this space of gratitude and appreciation
(17:44):
of a gift and a responsibility to use the gift.
And I'm a vessel for that work. You know, it's
not about me, It's happening through me. That's why I said,
I'm a small part of the story. And I'm a
very fortunate person to be able to help tell a
story that opens people's eyes and helps gifts some folks
some closure and the sense of their stories being heard.
And to me, that's a real there's a sense of
(18:04):
satisfaction associated with that to be part of that work,
because there's a lot of army of us out here
doing this kind of work. And I am again like
just a foot soldier in that army, and I'm a
proud person to be doing it, and I thank that's
what helps me. Man.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Well, you've got to come back to this show anytime
in the future, Dax. You know that door is always
going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
I appreciate you, I really do, and I just thank you.
I appreciate you for listening, for sharing with your audience
and sharing me with your audience. And you know, for
all those out there listening, I want to say, I
know it's the holiday season. It's been a long, long year.
Maybe a story, but a wrongful conviction. Its not sounded
like very appetizing, but I promise you there's some funny moments,
there's some light moments. There's a lot of levity in
this project. It's not just all about the wrongful conviction.
(18:42):
It's about friendship too, and it's about what happens.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
You know, you'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Okay, okay, you do the same. Happy Holidays.
It's actually been a fun adventure collecting all the conversations
I have since twenty sixteen, with those that have been
featured on NBC's The Voice. Now the question is can
we put them all in one place and not let
them be forgotten in history? Yeah you can. It's called
arro dot net a R r oe dot net. Look
for that voice. Enjoy the exploration. Hey, thanks for coming
(00:20):
back to the conversation. Let's do some pod crashing. Episode
number four twenty is with Dax deviln Ross from the
podcast Crying Wolf. Dax, I love your name, man. Why
didn't you market that and put it up on like
a rock star tour or something like that, and you know,
make your way around the world with Madonna or even Bieber.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Right, you know what I mean? Well, listen, there's there's
Dax Shephard. He's you know, he's out there doing his thing.
You know, there's a whole story about these this. There's
a few Daxes out there, and I've encountered a bunch
of them. There's a new generation, but a bunch of
us I found at one point, I know, we got
to get into the story, but at one point someone
put together a Twitter group and added me to it.
This is years ago, and it was for all the
Daxes that and I do think that there were a
(00:58):
bunch of us that were probably born around the same
time whose parents saw the same movie and named us Stax.
So that's what that's what, you know, a little bit
of the story.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Your podcast, Crying Wolf.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
It really does get into an emotional place because one
of the things that you know, we live in this
age where it seems like that everybody's got a podcast,
but my god, yours is the one that's sticking out
right now, and it's like, what, what do you think
is the secret sauce that you put into it?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Well, first of all, thank you. You know, there's a
lot of incredible work out there, and you know, I'm
impressed in aught every day by the things people are doing,
the stories people are telling, and the way these folks
are expanding the medium. And you're right though, there is
a out there in the world. I think, honestly, man,
you got to get out and do some real reporting. Yes,
I think, I mean, I mean, this is no disparagement
on folks, but I think there's a there's a you know,
(01:44):
it's the podcast medium has enabled many of us to
set it up and just get it going and start talking,
you know, do we can do interviews, but to go
out and do some footwork and get out in the
world and get doing some deep research and talking to
people and putting together soundscapes and really trying to pull
We had to go through twenty years of prison interviews,
between prison conversations between Robert and Lee. I mean, this
(02:09):
is a level of work in detail that my production
team at Chalk and Blade did that. I'm just like
in awe of myself. I am a small part of
this story and just grateful to been part of it. Well.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I love your honesty and transparency on that when you
call yourself something small, but yet you are the main
driving force behind it. But I mean, but a lot
of people don't have these beautiful teams such as yours. Yea,
how you're able to keep it together because I mean,
we live in twenty twenty five. There are a lot
of egos out here.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, you know, I mean, my goodness, I think for me,
I come to this work from print. You know, I've
toiled away in the you know, in that old analog
world for a long time, and so all I know
is deep storytelling and all I know, and someone has
told me recently because this has been a year that
I've rediscovered my own voice in a lot of ways,
(02:56):
and this story is a part of it, which was
that you do it for the people who are out there.
If you only do it thinking that the if you measure.
If your only measure is if you get to the
million people listening and x number of followers, then you know,
good luck with that. But that's not going to be
most people. But if you're doing it because you believe
that there's somebody in a corner of the world that
really is going to be touched by something you are doing,
(03:16):
and you believe in that, then that's something different. And
I'll say I'll add this last piece. You know, I
always I'm being transparent like this, I I you know,
someone like me doesn't. I don't get paid a lot
of money to a project like this. You have to
really care about it. You have to care about it,
and you can't do it for that thing other than
the fact that, like, I have an opportunity to tell
a really powerful and important story and I'm gonna damn
(03:37):
well do the best thing I can do and tell
it as truthfully as I can.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
One of the things that you do inside this is
that you kind of really open up the eyes of
anybody who might be you know, in prison or on
the outside, going how can I get my guy my
woman outside of prison? Because I don't know what we're
doing right today, but a lot of people are coming out.
What is it that you saw that is opening a
lot of doing or that we couldn't do back in
(04:01):
the seventies or eighties.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I mean, I mean the short answer is like forensics,
you know, short answer is DNA, But the longer answer is,
I think momentum and movements. You know, once momentums. Once
a momentum becomes a movement, a movement becomes a force
of its own, and it starts to you know, capture
different people who may not have always been the most extreme,
(04:24):
like progressive, like this kind of a movement, I think
captures people who are even more who are more mainstream
in terms of their views regarding the criminal legal system,
because I think all of us want to make sure
we get it right. All of us want to make
sure we get it right because there before the grace
of God goes us, you know, and these kinds of stories.
I think tell us that over and over again, like
(04:45):
this guy was walking down the street. This guy happened
to be doing this this it could happen. You think
it may not be you, but it could happen. So
I think it's the it's the movement, it's the momentum
that becomes a movement. I think it's the technology and
the forensics, and I think it's the broader awareness that
we all have because of the storytelling that people have
been done doing for so long. Now, over twenty some years,
people have been telling stories, and I think it's helped
(05:07):
us a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You have planted your listeners into the city of Chicago
nineteen eighty nine, and you know what, My wife is
from Chicago and she knows this story all too well.
And it becomes you know, the star witness is your
star suspect, and it's like, oh my god. You know
if that doesn't sound like Hollywood, that's not supposed to
happen in real life.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Oh done. It's you know. I think that's the thing
that So, you know what drew me to it because
I had just finished another podcast when I was approached
about working on this. I just finished the one on
the burden, and we had done four year deep dive.
I was like, I'm done. I can't do any more
of these wrongful convictions. That just too gut wrenching. And
then I got this invitation and I saw that piece,
(05:48):
the crying wolf element of it, which is a guy
Lee Harris is not. You know, he doesn't have to
clean his hands in the world. Let's be clear. He
would you know, he'd be happy to sell up. But
he'd be happy to sell up, sell some you know,
an unaware and entering Chicago, uh a bag of a
regano and say it's say it's something else. He'd be
happy to do some little little jive hustle to get over.
But he wasn't a He was a petty a petty criminal,
(06:10):
a petty thief. He was not a murderer. He was
not a killer, and that was never part of his
mo So I think, like, you know, it's a it's a,
it's a it's a. This story is is really powerful
because it was powerful to me. It was because of
the friendship between him and Robert. It was powerful because
the way things flipped. It's actually it's frightening. This guy
(06:33):
goes from being star witness, meaning being he's being put
up in a hotel by the detectives. He's being whined
and dying for back of a better way of describing it,
he's being brought. He's there having it. He does twenty
two statements for them, for the police as a witness,
and then one day he becomes the guy. Can you imagine?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
No, no, no, we I you know more than most
of us, but we all fear that moment where you know,
wrong place at the wrong time and sorry, the rest
of your life is now. I don't know you're gonna
get You're gonna get lost in a system right now?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Hm. I mean he's he's very expendable. He was an
expendable person, unfortunately, and that's what I think happens quite often.
But I'll stop there.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Wow, Wow, you know you talk about that friendship and
right away and maybe this is just the empathy or
the compassion coming out of my soul and it's like, wow, now,
all of a sudden, that friendship is visible. Now. Now,
I've never been to prison. I don't know what prison
is like. But when I hear that things are visible,
you know, I have to take a second and a
third breath.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
H Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's important
to even recognize, like Robert Chatler was this young guy
who got himself into he became an addict, for the
lack of a better way of describing it, and he
became an addict, and his addiction became so ferocious that
he was, you know, stealing anything and everything from everybody
(07:52):
in his life, selling anything and everything. And he was
a young man, early twenties, and his life had just
taken a really, really hard wrong turn and he ends
up in prison, and he has some he actually has
a couple of cellis before he meets Lee that are
kind of frightening guys. But when he meets Lee and
he enters the cell with Lee, Lee shows him, shows
him a kindness that no one has shown him in
a long time, you know, and it's simple kindness, like
(08:16):
you can use my radio his I don't. Lee didn't
smoke himself, but he always kept a pack of cigarettes
because that was currency. He gives these. He would give
cigarettes to Robert because he knew Robert needed him. They
would cook together, you know, they would they would do
all sorts of things. And in many ways, Lee is
twenty years older than this guy means they're not They
(08:36):
wouldn't have been friends on the street. It's a black
guy from the projects, a white guy from the suburbs,
and they find in a bond and ultimately, you know,
the funny thing is Lee actually kicks him out. Lee
actually asks to have him kicked out of the cell
because he smokes too much. But even when even when
Robert was leaving, even when Robert was walking out of
the prison, he stopped and told Lee, I'm gonna look
(08:57):
into your case. And he kept and he kept his.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Damn word, please do not move. There's more with Dax
Stevelin Ross coming up next, the name of his podcast,
Crying Wolf. We are back with podcaster Dax Steveln Ross.
Maybe this is just my judgmental self, because we're all judgers,
and that is when when they were moving, Robert sell closer.
I'm gonna tell you, I mean, in my heart, I'm
(09:21):
going what are they up to?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
What are they doing?
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Are they going to try to do something? Are they
gonna try to get information? What's going on? You know,
I mean all of a sudden, you know, you're a
part of an episode of Perry Mason.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny because you know, Lee was already
in largely because of a quote unquote jail house snitch.
And that's a big part of the story is that
there was a guy he actually never met, but who
said that he met, and he met Lee while they
were he was in jail before he was actually convicted,
and Lee confessed to him. So this had already happened
(09:50):
to Lee. Somebody had already like tried to use the
jail house snitch against him and been successful. And it
was only because Lee's lawyers went through and found the
FBI had paid this same informant in previous cases. That
this guy his name was David Toles. The only ways
they were able to start to really open up Lee's
case again is because they were able to find out
(10:11):
and pinpoint the fact that this jailhouse informant was on
the payroll basically of the FBI, and that the city
of Chicago knew about it and held it as and
did not with and withheld that information from Lee's attorneys.
So there was a Brady violation. For those of who
know anything about Brady violations, you're not allowed to withhold
information that could be exculpatory at least could be instrumental
(10:32):
for the other side, and they had done so. They
knew this guy had been paid by the FBI in
the past for his jailhouse informant information, and they didn't
tell Lee's attorneys. That became very uncritical in opening up
Lee's opportunity to go to prison.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
See now, now, come on, be honest with me, Dax.
Would you trust anybody if they went through that, because
all of a sudden, my trust factor factor is down
and I wouldn't know where to jump from there, because
it's like, Okay, I'm seeing something happen here, I'm feeling something.
But man, will trust is everything to me and it's
not always right though.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean the reality is that, like you know,
poor when Robert first started, and so Robert, you know,
he was able to get his hands on all the transcripts,
you know, very back in the early two thousand, he
would pour through them. He found out about this David
Toles character, he found out about him a long time ago.
But it was the fact of the matter to your point,
(11:25):
even when he found out that David Toles had been
basically put up to and was actually willing to go
on record and say he had been you know, paid
or if you know, by the police for his for
his testimony against Lee Least Lee's attorney said, that's that's valueless.
No one will care. It's actually not significant because because
(11:46):
David Toles was not a credible person. Right, so your
point is actually true, Like you're right, Like trust is
everything and credibility is everything, and David Tolds had no credibility.
Even so, even when he tried to recant his statement
in the early two thousands, the courts like, whatever nobody cares,
doesn't matter because you are not credible.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
So now, but but but what now?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
When you said that you know that that doing these
these you know, investigative reports of getting know, freeing people
from prison and stuff has taken its toll on you.
Let me ask you this deep inside, because we all
deal with post production blues as podcasters, how did you
get beyond that? Are you a d fragger in the in?
Are you going in there and asking yourself the own
your own questions and then question and the answers because
you've got you've got to replenish that soul before you
(12:28):
jump into that next story.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You're gonna love this, You're gonna find this hilarious and
maybe I shouldn't say's but gonna say. I actually, as
soon as I get off the call with you guys,
say I got to go to the studio and record
the two last the bonus episodes for this project. Because
so I haven't even got to that point, but I
can anticipate it. I'm actually feeling I'm going to the
studio for the last time in a couple of hours
and I'm gonna have to now to your point and deal.
(12:52):
I don't even listen to the podcast. I can't listen
to it, you know, And I don't know how you feel.
I don't both. I don't like my voice, but whatever,
that's the different story altogether. But I had struggle with
it because I think with your naming is that it
comes like there's stuff that comes up because you just
get through it. You just go in the studio, you
do the work. But you're right, man, it's stuff that
you got to sit with, and I know it's going
to hit me. I know it's gonna hit me, but
(13:12):
I'm not even gonna I can't go there yet. I
can't even let myself go there because I'm not done.
You know. The second story, the bonus episodes are actually,
if you will, you know, indulge me for a moment.
Last week in Chicago, there was a hearing involving a
guy named Anthony Garrett who's been in prison as well
for thirty some years for a crime that happened in
nineteen ninety two, the killing of a young boy named
(13:32):
Dontrell Davis, seven years old. He was killed in the
Kaberini being projects Garrett had always been. He was convicted
of the crime same detective as Lee Harris. He had
the same detective, and Garrett had always maintained that he
had been tortured and his conviction had been coerced. So
this detective, his name is Zuli, who was actually Lee
(13:54):
Harris's detective as well, also goes to Guantanamo Bay in
the early two thousand. Yes, and he is the main detective,
or he's the main interrogator of a young of a
man named Mohammadu Slahi, who is the star of a
film that came out a few years ago called The
Mauritanian starring Jerdy Foster and Benedict Cumberbatch. Right, so, people,
this is a wild story that we're talking about. In
(14:16):
any event, this case is still being litigated right now
in Chicago and slaw. He actually testified last week on
Behalf of Garrett to show and to talk about the
torture he experienced at the hands of the same detective.
Point of the matter is that this is live. We
are still waiting for the determination of that hearing, and
(14:36):
the last two bonus episodes are all about this what's
gonna happen to Anthony Garrett who's been in prison for
thirty some years for a crime he said he didn't
commit and actually was. You know, so this is this
is I'm in it man. I can just say I'm
in it minute, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
And I was gonna save this or maybe not even
go to it.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
But because you have touched on it, you know, you
can't have a true crime podcast until you have a
corrupt detective.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And my god, you're the one that brought it, so
there you go.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
So again, you cannot have a true crime until you
have a corrupt detective.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, man, listen, you know, in my last podcast, we
had a guy named Scarcella, you know, Louis Scarcella. It
was quite a character, quite a character, you know, unbelievable,
and he cooperated and he was not just a cool
he wasn't he was an enthusiastic voice in the project.
In this in this story, it's the complete opposite. Zuli.
(15:28):
Detective Zuli has his He's wanted no parts of the story.
He's never wanted to go on record. He's been able
to even avoid any kind of he's not even been
able to be They've not even been able to sit
down and do an interview with him. He's avoided all
of that. And he's always said and maintained, he's always
maintained that he did nothing wrong. And so you can't
even actually unpack the extent to which he actually engaged
(15:49):
in full on And I'm not even going to go
on record and saying that we have he has this alleged.
At this point, I have to legally say it's all alleged.
But there are a number of cases, a number cases
involving this guy, and all of them point to the
same sort of behavior, meaning like he doesn't he's not
the physical one. He's not the guy who goes in
and beats people up. There was a guy named John
(16:10):
Birds who would actually he was a physical abuser of people,
you know, and interrogation processes, this wasn't the same thing
with Zuli. Zuli was much more psychological. He was much
more at least in his estimation, sophisticated in the way
he operated. He would leave the room, at least that's
what the story is. He would leave the room and
have other people come in and do the physical violence,
(16:30):
and then he would come back in. You know. So
this is the thing, and that's part of what happened
in Guantonimo as well. The same story that Anthony Garrett
is telling in nineteen ninety two in Chicago is the
story that Slah he tells from two thousand and one,
two thousand and three, two thousand and four in Guantanamo Bay,
and it's about the same guy comes in. He's white, charismatic,
(16:52):
he's compelling, and he leaves the room and people come
in and do the dirty work and he comes back
in the room, right, and that's his.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, you know, I gotta ask you a question, and
this is between a listener and a podcaster, and that
is is that how does your stomach not get upset?
Because in listening to it and in experiencing the podcast,
I do get an upset stomach because you get me
so worked up on this, But that's your passion, that
that is your emotion, that is your drive to, like
you said, dig into the story. But how do you
(17:20):
stay with no twisted tummy?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
M I think honestly, man, you know, I mean it's
gonna sound a little bit hokey, but you know you
have it as well. Like Ero. You know you you're
fortunate enough to be you know, have some some gifts
in the world. Mine one of mine is listening deeply
and being able to help translate people's stories. So I
think I sit in this space of gratitude and appreciation
(17:44):
of a gift and a responsibility to use the gift.
And I'm a vessel for that work. You know, it's
not about me, It's happening through me. That's why I said,
I'm a small part of the story. And I'm a
very fortunate person to be able to help tell a
story that opens people's eyes and helps gifts some folks
some closure and the sense of their stories being heard.
And to me, that's a real there's a sense of
(18:04):
satisfaction associated with that to be part of that work,
because there's a lot of army of us out here
doing this kind of work. And I am again like
just a foot soldier in that army, and I'm a
proud person to be doing it, and I thank that's
what helps me. Man.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Well, you've got to come back to this show anytime
in the future, Dax. You know that door is always
going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
I appreciate you, I really do, and I just thank you.
I appreciate you for listening, for sharing with your audience
and sharing me with your audience. And you know, for
all those out there listening, I want to say, I
know it's the holiday season. It's been a long, long year.
Maybe a story, but a wrongful conviction. Its not sounded
like very appetizing, but I promise you there's some funny moments,
there's some light moments. There's a lot of levity in
this project. It's not just all about the wrongful conviction.
(18:42):
It's about friendship too, and it's about what happens.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
You know, you'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Okay, okay, you do the same. Happy Holidays.
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