November 21, 2025 • 17 mins
Pod Crashing episode 414 with Andrea Gunning from the podcast Betrayal. The Betrayal community is growing. From the producers that brought you the critically acclaimed Betrayal limited run series, a new always on docuseries will hit the feed every week. Our lives are all built on an invisible force: trust. But sometimes, the people we trust the most can turn out to be complete strangers. Every week, Betrayal: will share first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds.
Episodes available here:Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-betrayal-weekly-95632727/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-unplugged-totally-uncut--994165/support.
Episodes available here:Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-betrayal-weekly-95632727/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-unplugged-totally-uncut--994165/support.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You see it all the time on the commercials. Go
to this site, go to that website. Hey, if you
go here, you'll get more and more, more and more
and more. But wait, there's even more. No, there's only
one place. When it comes to the podcast ero dot
net a r r oe dot net, seventeen different podcasts
to choose from. Thanks for being a part of the journey. Hey,
welcome back to the conversation. Let's do some podcrashing. Episode
(00:21):
number four fourteen is with Andrea Gunning from the podcast Betrayal.
Good morning, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I'm doing great. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Absolutely fantastic. I knew when we talked last year that
we would be doing this again because because there's so
much betrayal in the world and your connection to getting
the story and basically to me healing people who have
been betrayed. Because if you've been betrayed and you tune
into this this podcast, you're going to learn new things.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Absolutely. I mean, so much about this show is about betrayal, devastation, deception,
but it's also about resilience and strength and so so yeah,
there's no shortage of betrayal, and there's so much diversity
in stories in the Betrayal Weekly series, and so I
think audiences will be fascinated and learn a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
You see so much in a bigger way when it
comes to these stories because so many people they would
walk away from this scene. I'm not getting into that mess.
Uh uh, that's not for me. But you kind of
just go, I'm going to face the fire. I'm going
in there.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yep, it's heavy. People have been through really traumatic stuff.
But you know that, Yeah, those stories make me lean
in that human experience, that curiosity makes me want to
dig in for sure. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
How do you know when you're getting a story? In
other words, it's like there's got to be something that
goes off inside your head in heart that says, okay,
now we're getting somewhere.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I think. I mean, we say this all the time
as a team. The betrayal and the deception is one thing,
but I think what makes the at the heart of
the show is the love story. So whether it's you know,
a husband that betrays a wife, a wife that betrays
a husband, or maybe it's a best friend that has
(02:15):
betrayed their other best friend, you know, or it's a
business partner, it's really in the love story. And it's
not just about a marriage. It could be about a
business that you've created with a friend or you know,
it's really really in that those stakes because everyone can
relate to loving something, loving someone, having a dream that
(02:38):
sweat equity that just ends up in destruction. So you
don't understand the fallout unless you really understand what it
meant for somebody. So it's really if we can understand
the love story, if that is strong enough, then we're like, okay,
this this this has got it, this is this is
(02:59):
this is a story.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Will tell Wow, you just triggered me in such a
weird way in the way that you know, people always go, well,
how come you don't collaborate with people, why don't you
do this? Well, it's exactly what you just explained betrayal
because you know, I mean, once you've seen it and
experienced it, you don't trust anymore. You've got that PTSD
mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It is very hard to trust again. And it's it's hard,
it's hard to like regulate trust where you're working on
these shows. But it's you know, we interviewed this psychologist
on the Limited run series last season in season four,
and it's like, trust is the backbone of society. It's
what makes us function. We all get up every day
(03:39):
and we just make You have to trust that people
are going to stop at red lights, people are going
to stop at stop signs like you get in the car,
and you just have to trust that people are going
to do their job on the road. That's a basic example.
So trust is so foundational to not just as as
human beings, but also keeping the society working. And so
we have to trust and that's what makes us human.
(04:02):
But to overcome those complicated feelings of trust when they've
been broken so devastatingly, it's it's a journey and it
takes a lot of strength and resilience to be able
to trust again. You know, did you choose not to
trust again? Is? You know, is one thing. But to
decide to trust again and invest in relationships and have
(04:23):
that vulnerability, I mean that's what That's what strength is. Yeah,
that's where that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah to me, that challenge, that rush, you know, Okay,
we can make this work. Come on, let's just dig
in and make it happen.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah. When you think you know somebody and they change,
how how is it that that you deal with people.
And I'm wondering if you've ever been given this is
that when somebody says, well, you knew what I was
when you pick me up? Have you run into something
like that.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Say more arrow, say more about that question.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
In other words, you know people who have betrayaled, and
you know because so many times in a relationship, business relationship,
or a personal relationship, we knew what they were when
we met them. We're either going to try to fix
them or we're just gonna say, you know what, that
was part of their life. I forgive them. Now, let's
work together here, and all of a sudden, the old
habits are back. You knew what I was when you
pick me up.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
That's so interesting. I know exactly what you mean, because
I've encountered I've encountered that person. I've encountered that scenario.
A lot of the stories we choose to tell on
betrayal are mostly focused on the reality that there really
are no red flags, right because I think that in
a lot of ways, we have a ton of keyboard
(05:37):
warriors of like, how did they not see this? Or
how did they not see that? And the reality is
to back to the point that I was making about
trust is that when we're talking about people that you love,
like whether your husband or your best friend or your parents,
for example, you don't assume that they're doing something areas
(06:00):
you don't assume that they're deceiving you. You know, to
have that thought would be against your basic understanding of
your relationships. So it's like there's so many mechanisms in
terms of just like survival instincts and just the way
that you like, we all usually default to truth, right,
(06:20):
like we default good And so we really try to
focus on the show of like of scenarios where people
really didn't see this coming, right, But I know exactly
the scenario that you mean, because there are people that
you know, when they show you who you are, believe them, right.
(06:46):
But you know, our show is really dedicated to the
scenarios where there are no red flags, because it truly
does happen like that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Wow. But when that flag goes up, though, everything changes,
and I mean, I mean that can change an entire
city block.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Absolutely again, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah. My father I always thought, you know, was oh,
he's just a truck driver, he's never home until he transitioned.
And I found out there were three families at one time,
and it's like, so maybe that's my attraction to betrayal,
is that you know it runs so deep in my soul.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, that must have been really really.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Hard, Yeah, because well, I mean trying to build that
relationship up with your with your brothers and sisters that
you didn't know you had. And that's why I would
be I wouldn't know how to do that, that that
little test that they give you to find out what
your ancestry is, and because I'd be afraid of the answer.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, of course, of course. And it's that question of
or it's that that what you just said, you believed
that he was just going to work, yep, right, and
that's and that's it. And to know that it was
something else really unlocks the whole endless possibilities of what
(07:59):
that person's capable of. And so I'm so sorry you
had to go through that.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Please do not move. There's more with Andrea Gunning coming
up next, the name of her podcast Betrayal. We're back
with Andrea Gunning. Well, let's talk about Libby's husband. I mean,
come on, this right here is a story in itself,
and that's one that people are going to be talking
about when they go to work. They're going to say,
did you hear that podcast? You need to go in
there and make the investment to listen to this one
(08:23):
about Libby.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah. I mean Libby was married to her husband for
a really long time. I mean he was a successful businessman,
and he was committing mortgage fraud and he was using
her name to sign fake documents. It's a very complicated scheme.
But at the end of the day, he bankrupted the family.
He's financially devastated her. And it wasn't until she was
(08:46):
watching a true crime show about someone who had been
you know, financially devastated and made her realize, oh wait,
I don't know anything about our own financials, right Like
I haven't I handle the home. I make sure my
daughter goes to school, my husband handles the money. You
make sure that we have like our lifestyle running, but
(09:07):
I don't know any details about it. And she watched
the show and she thought, you know, I got to
start asking questions about our financial situation. And it wasn't
until she started asking and pressing did things start to unravel.
And so you know, we talk about like a full
circle moment because now she's on this podcast and she's
(09:27):
talking about how True crime helped her. You know, she
could she could have never asked questions. I mean at
that point, the FBI was already on to him, but
and he was being investigated. But like, you know, she
got curious and it was true a true crime show
that made her start asking those questions.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Wow. See, that's every bit the reason why my wife
knows all of my passwords and I leave out my
daily writing because I if she feels that there's something wrong,
go read it in my writing. If it's in that writing,
then that's what's really going on in my life.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It's transparency is a great antidote to like, you know,
and I and I and I joke, I mean, I
you know, I got engaged this year and my fiance
is you know, God bless him because sometimes I do
bring work home with me. It's just the reality.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
You know, you brought up the FBI. Has the law
ever gotten in your way of getting a story?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
No? Not for betrayal. Not for betrayal. Surprisingly, and you
know the Betrayal Weekly is first person accounts where we're
just really living in someone retelling us like bet by
beat what happened to them. And so the Betrayal Limited run,
which is, you know, we put out one season basically
(10:47):
a year, where it's one person story told over eight
to ten episodes, and that features you know, a ton
of interviews from a number of different subjects, people and
their family, you know, law enforcement. Sometimes it can get
tricky for the narrative limited run, but usually, you know,
I haven't really had any issues on this show, in
particular with law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
I want listeners to know that you want them to
you want them to write to you Betrayal pod at
gmail dot com. I love that open door policy.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
It's a great community. I mean, we started it when
the show first came out in season one of the
limited run, and it just became this. I think some
people are so embarrassed and feel ashamed about what happened
to them and they don't need to be and then
they can just write to this email and feel safe
that they feel heard. And it's kind of incredible, this
(11:38):
little email community we've built.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
What in your heart is the most unthinkable betrayal, because
I mean, you're seeing it all and I often wonder
are you getting numb to any of this?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
No? Not numb. I was on an interview yesterday that
was really devastating, and I had to go and take
a walk afterwards, and it was really really affecting me.
I can't really do you know what I think is
the worst, because I don't like comparing. But you know,
there are some that will hit me for very specific
(12:13):
personal reasons. I think Brooke in episode one of season two,
it's such a visceral, emotional experience and that was and
she's such a great storyteller. She was betrayed by her boyfriend,
who was a very respected doctor and so and it's
such a physical betrayal. So I think that one was
(12:35):
really really devastating.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know, you were talking about Libby and her connection
to true crime and it so one of the things
that I've really tried to put a lot of research
in the number of armchair detectives that are that are
really changing things now where the police have turned their back,
those armchaired detectives are showing up.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, yeah we are. I'm
working on another story for iHeart. I won't give the details,
but like the the you know, the TikTok salutes, the
community has really been on this project, I'm working on
really holding this person to account. And it's so interesting
because I think that people don't like injustice. There you know,
(13:19):
there's fairness and then there's unfairness. And I think it's
you know, when you see those people, those armchair detectives,
it's really about you know, justice and fairness. And if
you're like this is unfair, I'm going to stick up
and I'm going to you know, rally for what's right.
And I think that that's why that happens. I think
that's why you see these individuals coming together.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I'm heavily inspired by the fact that you guys like
to have a round table conversation. I call that the
fish bowl and the reason why And yeah, do you
guys you have a rule that says, all right, we're
all going to go and we're gonna have this roundtable conversation,
but you better bring something. We just you know, make
the investment. If it sucks or not, it doesn't matter,
just bring something.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Not really no, Yeah, but that's the great idea. I
think that's I'm gonna take that away.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
With me well, because it's all based on Julia Cameron's
The Artist Way at Work, where She describes this gigantic
table where there's nine people and there's always two or
three that are quiet. They say nothing, and it's like
where But yet later on they'll come up with one
of the most brilliant ideas.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Right right, Well, you taught me something today, and I
always cherish shocking to you, but I'm walking away with
this idea, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So now, what are you learning from all of this,
because I mean, I'm shocked that you're not out there
doing speeches and you know, and talking with different groups
traveling across the nation.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah. I mean, we're producing a weekly series that's on
every week, you know, for almost the entire year, in
addition doing another I'm producing like five shows right now. No,
it's really hard. It's really hard to find that time.
But you know, I think I'm so passionate about season five,
(15:12):
which comes out in January, and I'm really focusing my
energy on making sure I handle that story with as
much care. It's about a woman who is betrayed by
her husband. There was intimate partner violence there, and so
I I'm really trying to focus my energy on making
(15:33):
that the best, doing my best on that.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I'm so inspired by the fact that you're that you're
investing so much into podcasting because you realize that it's
a connection. But what how do you handle those that
come up to you and say, well, I've always wanted
to do a podcast. I'll get around to it one day,
and you just go, don't even start. Don't even start.
You've got to You've got to invest everything into it,
or don't even start.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I think people, I mean I was that person no no, ye,
I was that person years ago that was like, you know,
I'm just I think we should start a podcast. And
my colleague Ben and I start did confronting oj Simpson.
But you know, you kind of do have to have
a little bit of blissful ignorance and the just like
(16:19):
that energy to prevail and like, this has to work,
this has to work, this is going to happen for me,
and just like that blind faith that has to exists
because otherwise you'll get in your own way. But also,
you know, it's a lot of work. I do a
lot of meetings with like women rte to me and
say hey, I just want some advice on podcasting in
(16:40):
the industry. I'll take those meetings, and I just I
think that people don't understand the amount of work that
goes into it. I mean, this is a very intense job.
We I have an incredible team behind me that put
these shows together, and like we're all working and firing
(17:00):
on all cylinders all day all the time. Like you know. So,
I mean it's intense job. And you know it's a production.
You're not slapping something together. It's it's a lot of work.
It's in intense work and you have to give it
your all.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Wow, you have got to come back to this show
anytime in the future.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Thank you for I always love coming on your so
so thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Well, you've been brilliant today. Okay, okay, you too.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Thank you.
You see it all the time on the commercials. Go
to this site, go to that website. Hey, if you
go here, you'll get more and more, more and more
and more. But wait, there's even more. No, there's only
one place. When it comes to the podcast ero dot
net a r r oe dot net, seventeen different podcasts
to choose from. Thanks for being a part of the journey. Hey,
welcome back to the conversation. Let's do some podcrashing. Episode
(00:21):
number four fourteen is with Andrea Gunning from the podcast Betrayal.
Good morning, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I'm doing great. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Absolutely fantastic. I knew when we talked last year that
we would be doing this again because because there's so
much betrayal in the world and your connection to getting
the story and basically to me healing people who have
been betrayed. Because if you've been betrayed and you tune
into this this podcast, you're going to learn new things.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Absolutely. I mean, so much about this show is about betrayal, devastation, deception,
but it's also about resilience and strength and so so yeah,
there's no shortage of betrayal, and there's so much diversity
in stories in the Betrayal Weekly series, and so I
think audiences will be fascinated and learn a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
You see so much in a bigger way when it
comes to these stories because so many people they would
walk away from this scene. I'm not getting into that mess.
Uh uh, that's not for me. But you kind of
just go, I'm going to face the fire. I'm going
in there.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yep, it's heavy. People have been through really traumatic stuff.
But you know that, Yeah, those stories make me lean
in that human experience, that curiosity makes me want to
dig in for sure. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
How do you know when you're getting a story? In
other words, it's like there's got to be something that
goes off inside your head in heart that says, okay,
now we're getting somewhere.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I think. I mean, we say this all the time
as a team. The betrayal and the deception is one thing,
but I think what makes the at the heart of
the show is the love story. So whether it's you know,
a husband that betrays a wife, a wife that betrays
a husband, or maybe it's a best friend that has
(02:15):
betrayed their other best friend, you know, or it's a
business partner, it's really in the love story. And it's
not just about a marriage. It could be about a
business that you've created with a friend or you know,
it's really really in that those stakes because everyone can
relate to loving something, loving someone, having a dream that
(02:38):
sweat equity that just ends up in destruction. So you
don't understand the fallout unless you really understand what it
meant for somebody. So it's really if we can understand
the love story, if that is strong enough, then we're like, okay,
this this this has got it, this is this is
(02:59):
this is a story.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Will tell Wow, you just triggered me in such a
weird way in the way that you know, people always go, well,
how come you don't collaborate with people, why don't you
do this? Well, it's exactly what you just explained betrayal
because you know, I mean, once you've seen it and
experienced it, you don't trust anymore. You've got that PTSD
mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It is very hard to trust again. And it's it's hard,
it's hard to like regulate trust where you're working on
these shows. But it's you know, we interviewed this psychologist
on the Limited run series last season in season four,
and it's like, trust is the backbone of society. It's
what makes us function. We all get up every day
(03:39):
and we just make You have to trust that people
are going to stop at red lights, people are going
to stop at stop signs like you get in the car,
and you just have to trust that people are going
to do their job on the road. That's a basic example.
So trust is so foundational to not just as as
human beings, but also keeping the society working. And so
we have to trust and that's what makes us human.
(04:02):
But to overcome those complicated feelings of trust when they've
been broken so devastatingly, it's it's a journey and it
takes a lot of strength and resilience to be able
to trust again. You know, did you choose not to
trust again? Is? You know, is one thing. But to
decide to trust again and invest in relationships and have
(04:23):
that vulnerability, I mean that's what That's what strength is. Yeah,
that's where that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah to me, that challenge, that rush, you know, Okay,
we can make this work. Come on, let's just dig
in and make it happen.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah. When you think you know somebody and they change,
how how is it that that you deal with people.
And I'm wondering if you've ever been given this is
that when somebody says, well, you knew what I was
when you pick me up? Have you run into something
like that.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Say more arrow, say more about that question.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
In other words, you know people who have betrayaled, and
you know because so many times in a relationship, business relationship,
or a personal relationship, we knew what they were when
we met them. We're either going to try to fix
them or we're just gonna say, you know what, that
was part of their life. I forgive them. Now, let's
work together here, and all of a sudden, the old
habits are back. You knew what I was when you
pick me up.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
That's so interesting. I know exactly what you mean, because
I've encountered I've encountered that person. I've encountered that scenario.
A lot of the stories we choose to tell on
betrayal are mostly focused on the reality that there really
are no red flags, right because I think that in
a lot of ways, we have a ton of keyboard
(05:37):
warriors of like, how did they not see this? Or
how did they not see that? And the reality is
to back to the point that I was making about
trust is that when we're talking about people that you love,
like whether your husband or your best friend or your parents,
for example, you don't assume that they're doing something areas
(06:00):
you don't assume that they're deceiving you. You know, to
have that thought would be against your basic understanding of
your relationships. So it's like there's so many mechanisms in
terms of just like survival instincts and just the way
that you like, we all usually default to truth, right,
(06:20):
like we default good And so we really try to
focus on the show of like of scenarios where people
really didn't see this coming, right, But I know exactly
the scenario that you mean, because there are people that
you know, when they show you who you are, believe them, right.
(06:46):
But you know, our show is really dedicated to the
scenarios where there are no red flags, because it truly
does happen like that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Wow. But when that flag goes up, though, everything changes,
and I mean, I mean that can change an entire
city block.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Absolutely again, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah. My father I always thought, you know, was oh,
he's just a truck driver, he's never home until he transitioned.
And I found out there were three families at one time,
and it's like, so maybe that's my attraction to betrayal,
is that you know it runs so deep in my soul.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, that must have been really really.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Hard, Yeah, because well, I mean trying to build that
relationship up with your with your brothers and sisters that
you didn't know you had. And that's why I would
be I wouldn't know how to do that, that that
little test that they give you to find out what
your ancestry is, and because I'd be afraid of the answer.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, of course, of course. And it's that question of
or it's that that what you just said, you believed
that he was just going to work, yep, right, and
that's and that's it. And to know that it was
something else really unlocks the whole endless possibilities of what
(07:59):
that person's capable of. And so I'm so sorry you
had to go through that.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Please do not move. There's more with Andrea Gunning coming
up next, the name of her podcast Betrayal. We're back
with Andrea Gunning. Well, let's talk about Libby's husband. I mean,
come on, this right here is a story in itself,
and that's one that people are going to be talking
about when they go to work. They're going to say,
did you hear that podcast? You need to go in
there and make the investment to listen to this one
(08:23):
about Libby.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah. I mean Libby was married to her husband for
a really long time. I mean he was a successful businessman,
and he was committing mortgage fraud and he was using
her name to sign fake documents. It's a very complicated scheme.
But at the end of the day, he bankrupted the family.
He's financially devastated her. And it wasn't until she was
(08:46):
watching a true crime show about someone who had been
you know, financially devastated and made her realize, oh wait,
I don't know anything about our own financials, right Like
I haven't I handle the home. I make sure my
daughter goes to school, my husband handles the money. You
make sure that we have like our lifestyle running, but
(09:07):
I don't know any details about it. And she watched
the show and she thought, you know, I got to
start asking questions about our financial situation. And it wasn't
until she started asking and pressing did things start to unravel.
And so you know, we talk about like a full
circle moment because now she's on this podcast and she's
(09:27):
talking about how True crime helped her. You know, she
could she could have never asked questions. I mean at
that point, the FBI was already on to him, but
and he was being investigated. But like, you know, she
got curious and it was true a true crime show
that made her start asking those questions.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Wow. See, that's every bit the reason why my wife
knows all of my passwords and I leave out my
daily writing because I if she feels that there's something wrong,
go read it in my writing. If it's in that writing,
then that's what's really going on in my life.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
It's transparency is a great antidote to like, you know,
and I and I and I joke, I mean, I
you know, I got engaged this year and my fiance
is you know, God bless him because sometimes I do
bring work home with me. It's just the reality.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
You know, you brought up the FBI. Has the law
ever gotten in your way of getting a story?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
No? Not for betrayal. Not for betrayal. Surprisingly, and you
know the Betrayal Weekly is first person accounts where we're
just really living in someone retelling us like bet by
beat what happened to them. And so the Betrayal Limited run,
which is, you know, we put out one season basically
(10:47):
a year, where it's one person story told over eight
to ten episodes, and that features you know, a ton
of interviews from a number of different subjects, people and
their family, you know, law enforcement. Sometimes it can get
tricky for the narrative limited run, but usually, you know,
I haven't really had any issues on this show, in
particular with law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
I want listeners to know that you want them to
you want them to write to you Betrayal pod at
gmail dot com. I love that open door policy.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
It's a great community. I mean, we started it when
the show first came out in season one of the
limited run, and it just became this. I think some
people are so embarrassed and feel ashamed about what happened
to them and they don't need to be and then
they can just write to this email and feel safe
that they feel heard. And it's kind of incredible, this
(11:38):
little email community we've built.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
What in your heart is the most unthinkable betrayal, because
I mean, you're seeing it all and I often wonder
are you getting numb to any of this?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
No? Not numb. I was on an interview yesterday that
was really devastating, and I had to go and take
a walk afterwards, and it was really really affecting me.
I can't really do you know what I think is
the worst, because I don't like comparing. But you know,
there are some that will hit me for very specific
(12:13):
personal reasons. I think Brooke in episode one of season two,
it's such a visceral, emotional experience and that was and
she's such a great storyteller. She was betrayed by her boyfriend,
who was a very respected doctor and so and it's
such a physical betrayal. So I think that one was
(12:35):
really really devastating.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know, you were talking about Libby and her connection
to true crime and it so one of the things
that I've really tried to put a lot of research
in the number of armchair detectives that are that are
really changing things now where the police have turned their back,
those armchaired detectives are showing up.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, yeah we are. I'm
working on another story for iHeart. I won't give the details,
but like the the you know, the TikTok salutes, the
community has really been on this project, I'm working on
really holding this person to account. And it's so interesting
because I think that people don't like injustice. There you know,
(13:19):
there's fairness and then there's unfairness. And I think it's
you know, when you see those people, those armchair detectives,
it's really about you know, justice and fairness. And if
you're like this is unfair, I'm going to stick up
and I'm going to you know, rally for what's right.
And I think that that's why that happens. I think
that's why you see these individuals coming together.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I'm heavily inspired by the fact that you guys like
to have a round table conversation. I call that the
fish bowl and the reason why And yeah, do you
guys you have a rule that says, all right, we're
all going to go and we're gonna have this roundtable conversation,
but you better bring something. We just you know, make
the investment. If it sucks or not, it doesn't matter,
just bring something.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Not really no, Yeah, but that's the great idea. I
think that's I'm gonna take that away.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
With me well, because it's all based on Julia Cameron's
The Artist Way at Work, where She describes this gigantic
table where there's nine people and there's always two or
three that are quiet. They say nothing, and it's like
where But yet later on they'll come up with one
of the most brilliant ideas.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Right right, Well, you taught me something today, and I
always cherish shocking to you, but I'm walking away with
this idea, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
So now, what are you learning from all of this,
because I mean, I'm shocked that you're not out there
doing speeches and you know, and talking with different groups
traveling across the nation.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah. I mean, we're producing a weekly series that's on
every week, you know, for almost the entire year, in
addition doing another I'm producing like five shows right now. No,
it's really hard. It's really hard to find that time.
But you know, I think I'm so passionate about season five,
(15:12):
which comes out in January, and I'm really focusing my
energy on making sure I handle that story with as
much care. It's about a woman who is betrayed by
her husband. There was intimate partner violence there, and so
I I'm really trying to focus my energy on making
(15:33):
that the best, doing my best on that.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I'm so inspired by the fact that you're that you're
investing so much into podcasting because you realize that it's
a connection. But what how do you handle those that
come up to you and say, well, I've always wanted
to do a podcast. I'll get around to it one day,
and you just go, don't even start. Don't even start.
You've got to You've got to invest everything into it,
or don't even start.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
I think people, I mean I was that person no no, ye,
I was that person years ago that was like, you know,
I'm just I think we should start a podcast. And
my colleague Ben and I start did confronting oj Simpson.
But you know, you kind of do have to have
a little bit of blissful ignorance and the just like
(16:19):
that energy to prevail and like, this has to work,
this has to work, this is going to happen for me,
and just like that blind faith that has to exists
because otherwise you'll get in your own way. But also,
you know, it's a lot of work. I do a
lot of meetings with like women rte to me and
say hey, I just want some advice on podcasting in
(16:40):
the industry. I'll take those meetings, and I just I
think that people don't understand the amount of work that
goes into it. I mean, this is a very intense job.
We I have an incredible team behind me that put
these shows together, and like we're all working and firing
(17:00):
on all cylinders all day all the time. Like you know. So,
I mean it's intense job. And you know it's a production.
You're not slapping something together. It's it's a lot of work.
It's in intense work and you have to give it
your all.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Wow, you have got to come back to this show
anytime in the future.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Thank you for I always love coming on your so
so thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Well, you've been brilliant today. Okay, okay, you too.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Thank you.
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