November 9, 2025 • 19 mins
Pod Crashing episode 408 with Anna Sinfield from the podcast The Girlfriends Podcast Jailhouse Lawyer "What does it mean to be a victim, or a villain? What happens when the line between the two starts to blur? On 7th July 2010, Kelly Harnett says her abusive boyfriend murdered a man right in front of her. So how did she end up in prison for it? Anna Sinfield - the journalist behind the global number 1 podcast, The Girlfriends, returns with her toughest story yet. This series isn't a whodunnit. It's not even really about what happened. It's about how a woman who was a victim of domestic violence became a villain in the eyes of the law. Found guilty of murder and locked up for over a decade; Kelly Harnett taught herself the law. And as she battled to overturn her conviction, she became a beacon of hope, fighting for the freedom of the abused women locked up alongside her. Episodes available here:Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-the-girlfriends-jailhouse-118226591/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's all in one location. Ero dot net A r
r oe dot net. I've talked about hosting seventeen different
podcasts for how many years, and it's been like, well
where are they at? I don't know, just google it. Well,
that's not a good idea Ero dot net, A r
r oe dot net. Hey, thanks for coming back to
the conversation. Let's do some pod crashing. Episode number four
(00:20):
oh eight is with Anna Sinfield from the podcast the
Girlfriend's Podcast Jailhouse Lawyer. And I've always been impressed with
the Girlfriends series because you guys have this amazing way
of bringing a story to understanding it. You know what
I mean? You know it's there are some journalists that
just report a story. You don't do that. You share
(00:40):
a story and we have a better understanding of who
and what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Oh thank you. I mean that's the highest price.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And the one that you're doing right now, I mean,
I mean the Jailhouse Lawyer. This, this one really has
captivated my imagination as well as well as my my
thinking of going, where's this going to? Because this is
somebody who is so spiritual and so driven, and you
really bring that out. Starting in episode one, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, she is one of the most complex people I've
ever tried to profile on a show like this. It's
been a real head scratcher. But I think that's a
good thing.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It is, yeah, because I mean, you're bringing it out.
You're bringing out Kelly's personality, and more importantly, you're bringing
out your own personality because in asking the questions and
setting up the story, I can tell that you're very inquisitive.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm sure that's why I
do what I do. And she does make you. I mean,
meeting somebody like Kelly who's kind of full of so
many contradictions in the way that she is, it does
make you kind of really want to ask questions and
get to the bottom of where she's coming from.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Well, you sent a shiver up my spine when Kelly
describes that her boyfriend murdered someone right there in front
of her, and I'm thinking, oh my god, that's some
serious stuff right there.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Mmm mm hmmm. Yeah, Yeah, I mean, I mean it
is really serious.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
This series is definitely darker and more complicated than the
ones that we've told before, because we are having the
person at the center of the story. She has objectively
done bad things, and we haven't really had.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
To deal with that like in the previous seasons.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So now I don't feel the darkness. What I feel
is the depth. How about it's deeper than ones that
you guys have done before, because I mean, I mean
I and the only reason why I don't say dark
is because I just feel like that there's there's so
much enlightenment in her to keep it from being dark.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's true.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I'm glad that it doesn't feel it doesn't feel too dark.
It's definitely I think. Yeah, I think you're right. Maybe
it's it's it's a deeper telling. It's one that kind
of makes you question. We're hoping that the kind of
listeners will listen to it and question their own idea
of what they think justice is and how we should
deal with somebody as complicated as Kelly who's had the
(03:05):
life that Kelly's had.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Well, you introduced us to Kelly instantly, and one of
the ways that you do that is you go and
visit her at her house. And how about those roses?
What did you feel when she was describing the roses
and why her mother did not want her to pick
up the rose.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh, I just her house.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I tried to get it across in the scripting, but
it did feel.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Like such a shrine.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
And the obsession with the roses and the kind of
religiosity that goes with that felt so interesting to me.
And the story of the picking up the rose there
was just something that felt almost too good to be true.
I guess it was such a perfect story that it
(03:52):
felt you know, I started to scratch my head a
little bit at that moment, thinking is this.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Is this real?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I'll give you that. Yeah, because when she talked about
the rose being dirty, I'm going, really rose being dirty,
And then when you stop to think about it, you're going, yeah,
yeah it is. I can understand.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah. It was just such a perfect story. And she
has these really perfect stories for so many moments of
her life. But I think she's a really naturally she's
a great storyteller, and so sometimes you're just caught off
guard by how good a story is.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Well, you're a great storyteller yourself, because you've got something
inside your heart that really has to be played out.
It is rule number one, locate the victim, and in
this storyline, Kelly is the victim.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yes, yeah, it was.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I'd spent a lot of time thinking about the work
that I've done in the rest of the Girlfriends. Really,
I've been a victim's advocate from the beginning, but I've
told stories about very easy to understand victims. There've been
these kind of you know, the first season, a white,
(05:13):
middle to upper class Jewish lady from New York, just
so relatable everyone could kind of get behind her. The
second season, another more complicated victim, but still packaged within
a kind of family that you could really kind of
care about. And then I just wanted to say, like, hey,
(05:34):
there are victims who don't look as neat and tidy
as this. There are victims who'd kind of trigger your prejudices,
but they're still victims. And how do we react when
we start to try and show them the compassion that
we showed Girl and Heidi in the first two seasons.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You brought some light to my heart when you kind
of really jumped into this thought that there's a blurred
line between victim and villain, and you make me think
on your podcast, and that's a good thing.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
I hope you're not thinking too hard, but yeah, good,
I want you to think and there is a blurred
line between victim and villain, and all of us are
in that blurred line.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
That's not something that's unique to Kelly.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I am not perfect, but I'm also not all bad,
and some people end up in a far more complicated
place in between those two.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But we have to reckon with that.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
We have to think about what it means to be
a villain and a victim in both parts.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
You didn't waste any time when it comes to letting
listeners know that that you know, this is not a
who done it? This right here is a story, and
I mean that's what I love about your honesty on
this is that it is not a who done it?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah. Yeah, I didn't want to.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Put Kelly on trial by media. I wasn't interested in
doing that because that didn't feel like, while we have
to acknowledge the the fact that she has been convicted
of this charge and there is every chance that she
did do this, that's not what the show is about.
That wouldn't be me being a victim's advocate. So instead
(07:12):
it was about what does this actually mean? What does
it say about society? What's the systemic issue at heart here?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
But they said that she was a villain. I mean,
I mean sitting there listening to her story and the
way that she shares that story, and yet people actually
thought she's a villain.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
They did, But when you listen to some of the
upcoming episodes, you'll realize.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That there are some reasons.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
That people have come to that conclusion. Personally, I don't
think they're good enough, but we'll let the listeners decide
that one, because, as I say, it's not a who
done it.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, You're absolutely right about that. And one of the
greatest things I guess what I'm feeling in this entire
story is is that from darkness there comes something greater.
And I love her comment when it comes to why
are you even doing this, Kelly, And basically it was
her way of saying, because nobody else is nobody else
is going to help these people, So it's me. I'm
doing the work.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, she's experienced injustice and she's not going to have it.
And I think we can all take something from Kelly
in that respect.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Would you say that, through her spirituality and religion, that
she's doing God's work.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I think that's what Kelly would say.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I think that's definitely what Kelly would say, I think
me and her have slightly different opinions on that, but
I think she's doing good work and that's more important
to me. Wherever that your source of inspiration comes from.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
If you're doing good, you're doing good.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Please do not move. There's more with Anna Sinfeld coming
up next. The name of the podcast The Girlfriends Jill
House Lawyer. We're back with Anna Sinfeld. This has to
be one of those storylines, so we're newer answers when
they would come at you, you would ask a question
and the answer was unexpected all of a sudden, your
gears had to s when you were taking notes.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't come into this story actually knowing
what I was going to get. There's a line in
the last episode where it's I kind of came into
this story thinking, thinking I knew what I wanted, thinking
I knew what was going to happen. But I had
to do a lot more work on myself when I
realized how much, you know, how much my journalism, how
(09:25):
much my my thinking had supported this idea that there
was such a thing as just like a bad person
and that the justice system somehow was working for them.
And so yeah, it's really changed me making this show
speak of.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Okay, let's let's talk about you and the'se podcasts, because
you know The Girlfriends has you know you're in this
this brand new season. A podcast requires a lot of work.
They announce the other day that Mark Maron is leaving
his podcast because of burnout. I face burnout every day.
How are you doing this? Are you facing burnout? And
as a podcaster, what can we teach those that are
behind us that are growing with it to reach beyond
(10:06):
you know, burnout and keep that story growing forward.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
But yeah, so I definitely have experienced kind of burnout,
and it's tough because you're constantly onto the next thing.
It never stops on The Girlfriends especially, But I guess
I will say that when I've done training for this
kind of what helps you get through is having a
sense of purpose in your work.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And it's probably.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
One of the main reasons why so much of The
Girlfriends ends up being about kind of trying to do
something good, trying to get to the bottom of something
that is kind of oppressive. We're always fighting against some
kind of oppresso on The Girlfriends, and I think that's
because I need something bigger than just making a show
that people listen to on their commute. I need it
(10:53):
to have impact. I need it to make a difference
in people's lives, and that keeps me alive and being
fed by all of the hard work that I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
But the bar on this one is so high. How
are you going to get over this one with Kelly?
Because we're talking about a woman who physically took the
time to learn the law and then to reach out
and help other people. I mean, that's a high bar.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
It's a very high bar. But We've got some amazing
shows coming up, so I'm not afraid of high bars.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Let's just push it, push it a bit higher.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
What are you learning from this? Because I mean, I
mean that you have to see humanism the way that
you guys are projected forward. And I do invite listeners
to go back to seasons one and two because I mean,
it really is journalism in its highest behavior.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Thank you. What was the first part of that question?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Basically? You know, the thing is is that what are
you learning from each of these projects? Because I mean
you're standing right there face to face with humanism.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, Well what I'm learning is something that I feel
like has been an nate to me for a long time.
So one of the jokes in the first season is
always about how I'm another vegan because no one knew
what to feed me because I'm vegan. Whenever people I
don't really talk about being vegan them all that much.
(12:17):
I try not to be one of those. But whenever
people do ask me why I am, my stock answer
is always because the best thing about humans, the most
amazing advancement we have on every other living species, is
our ability to deal with complex morality, to have philosophies,
(12:37):
and for those to overcome these sort of like innate
feelings that we just have to eat something because it's
tasty or you know, all of this stuff. And I
think I really feel like that about the girlfriends. One
of the things that's teaching me is like I have
this ability to see people beyond their action at one
(12:57):
specific moment in time. I have the ability to show
people extended compassion and to find this kind of sisterhood.
Like I just think one thing that's made me feel
is that I just celebrate people so much, Like there
is goodness in everyone and in all our little interactions
that we have, and I'm happy about that.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Do you see yourself as a silent wolf in the
way of watching people, standing by and watching people and
learning from them.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
I've been criticized for my way of just sitting and staring.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
I mean, because I mean the way that you bring
a story to life. I mean, when you talked about
Kelly in twenty ten, sitting inside that police cell, she
was already working on a positive attitude. I mean the
way that you described that. I'm sitting there going, yeah,
you go, Kelly, I want to find out more about you.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, Well, because at that point she was at her lowest,
but she's also got all this spirit and energy and
drive and potential for something that her life up to
that point hasn't really let her make the most of.
And I think it's just so beautiful that in this
story you get to see her flourish, and it's in
(14:10):
a very unlikely place, it's in prison, but you see
her really come into her own and reach her potential.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
So then the next step that you're going to grow
into are you going to be the host of the
next one too, or are you going to pass it
along to one of the others that it's part of
your group.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
So we kind of we mix it up because it
really depends on the show. I mean, originally I always
had this philosophy that the women involved should be the hosts,
but that doesn't always work in reality. Sometimes it's not
helpful to a victim of something to be retraumatized enough
into making it work. So being a host is a
(14:49):
lot of hard work. So we mix that up. In
the next show that's coming out, there are women who
are at the center of the story, a story that
affects solely a black unity in a part of America,
and so we've got a cast of women who experienced
that experienced the traumas that were put against them by
(15:10):
the police, and they are hosting it because of course
it would be bananas for me to host that show.
But then the show after that I will be hosting,
and then another one that I won't, So we mix
it up. It also allows for my availability. Well.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
See, I like that because you know, one of the
things that a lot of these these true crime podcasts
do is they'll bring you You'll hear three, four, five,
six different voices, and you get lost in those voices
and you forget who the host really is, and so
that with you with you sharing the story, it's you
saying this is what happened, this is who's involved, We're
growing forward. So I really do like that idea where
(15:46):
there's not multiple layers there.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, I think it's really lovely to people. I've been
a kind of little companion the whole way through. I've
become more and more on Mike, but I've always been
there and hopefully I always will be. But I think
it's also really important for when a story isn't suitable
for me to host, me to kind of beckon other
people in who should be getting that limelight. So we'll
(16:09):
always make sure we do that on this show.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
How much sound did you gather with Kelly that did
not make it to this podcast? Where you're sitting there
now going ah, maybe we should have added that.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Oh, that's the worst feeling in the world.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yes, yeah, oh just hours, yeah, hours and hours and
hours and that there are a few moments where it's like, oh,
that would have been great. And sometimes you have those
moments of glory tape that you just try and squeeze
in but they actually don't make sense for whatever reason,
and you had that's one you just have to kind
of put your hands up and go, I guess I've
(16:42):
lost that one.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I totally get that because I will always save the original,
and then when I bring in a copy of it,
that's when I can sit there and I can cut
that monkey up so fast it's unbelievable. But if I
make a mistake, I've still got the original.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. And then you always
think maybe maybe I'll go back to it, and you
never do.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
You end up too far down the line.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So true, How are you able to keep it at
thirty five to forty minutes because you've got so much
information taking place, especially with someone like Kelly.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, that's I mean, it's a tough thing.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
But I get bored past that amount of time when
I listen to most other shows. So the motivation is
I don't want to be bored, and I don't want
my listeners to.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Be if possible.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
But I think scripting, it's all in scripting, because you
know that's what that's what scripting is for. It speeds
up the moments in between, It solidifies things that could
end up being kind of a rambling conversation. Yea, So
I really I love writing. Writing is kind of the
part of it. That I like the most, and so
we really dig into that.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
You would think I'm a freak because I all of
my scripting is done in my own handwriting, and because
I once I put it on a computer screen, I
feel like that I've gone mechanical.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Wow, I love that's that's very very old school, very analogue.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Well, I mean, I mean, when you've got that script
right there in front of you, I think what it
does is it brings out the radio announcer in me,
because that's how we do it in radio. And whereas
my handwriting I can feel, you know, that emotion. You
can tell by the swerve and curve of the words
what I'm supposed to be doing there.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, I can imagine that I've got really bad handwriting.
So I think you'd make me think everything I've said
is really bad.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Where can people go to find out more information about
you and everything that your entire team is doing, because
I want listeners to tap into your true crime.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, well so you can.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Actually you can find me on Instagram and TikTok, where
I'm posting weekly little updates and behind the scenes stuff
like We've got a really juicy moment coming up where
there's going to be a confession letter, and you only
hear snippets of it in the podcast, But actually I've
got videos where I read it to you in full
(19:02):
coming out on those channels. So if you want any
behind the scenes stuff, head there. But also you can
find us on LinkedIn and all of those things. But yeah,
Anna Sinfield, you can type that into TikTok or Instagram.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Well, you are a modern day journalist taking people to
places and it's not just a little four minute SoundBite
you found on some network.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Thank you so much, er, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I will will you'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Okay, yeah, well you too. Thank you.
It's all in one location. Ero dot net A r
r oe dot net. I've talked about hosting seventeen different
podcasts for how many years, and it's been like, well
where are they at? I don't know, just google it. Well,
that's not a good idea Ero dot net, A r
r oe dot net. Hey, thanks for coming back to
the conversation. Let's do some pod crashing. Episode number four
(00:20):
oh eight is with Anna Sinfield from the podcast the
Girlfriend's Podcast Jailhouse Lawyer. And I've always been impressed with
the Girlfriends series because you guys have this amazing way
of bringing a story to understanding it. You know what
I mean? You know it's there are some journalists that
just report a story. You don't do that. You share
(00:40):
a story and we have a better understanding of who
and what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Oh thank you. I mean that's the highest price.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And the one that you're doing right now, I mean,
I mean the Jailhouse Lawyer. This, this one really has
captivated my imagination as well as well as my my
thinking of going, where's this going to? Because this is
somebody who is so spiritual and so driven, and you
really bring that out. Starting in episode one, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, she is one of the most complex people I've
ever tried to profile on a show like this. It's
been a real head scratcher. But I think that's a
good thing.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It is, yeah, because I mean, you're bringing it out.
You're bringing out Kelly's personality, and more importantly, you're bringing
out your own personality because in asking the questions and
setting up the story, I can tell that you're very inquisitive.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm sure that's why I
do what I do. And she does make you. I mean,
meeting somebody like Kelly who's kind of full of so
many contradictions in the way that she is, it does
make you kind of really want to ask questions and
get to the bottom of where she's coming from.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Well, you sent a shiver up my spine when Kelly
describes that her boyfriend murdered someone right there in front
of her, and I'm thinking, oh my god, that's some
serious stuff right there.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Mmm mm hmmm. Yeah, Yeah, I mean, I mean it
is really serious.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
This series is definitely darker and more complicated than the
ones that we've told before, because we are having the
person at the center of the story. She has objectively
done bad things, and we haven't really had.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
To deal with that like in the previous seasons.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So now I don't feel the darkness. What I feel
is the depth. How about it's deeper than ones that
you guys have done before, because I mean, I mean
I and the only reason why I don't say dark
is because I just feel like that there's there's so
much enlightenment in her to keep it from being dark.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's true.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I'm glad that it doesn't feel it doesn't feel too dark.
It's definitely I think. Yeah, I think you're right. Maybe
it's it's it's a deeper telling. It's one that kind
of makes you question. We're hoping that the kind of
listeners will listen to it and question their own idea
of what they think justice is and how we should
deal with somebody as complicated as Kelly who's had the
(03:05):
life that Kelly's had.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Well, you introduced us to Kelly instantly, and one of
the ways that you do that is you go and
visit her at her house. And how about those roses?
What did you feel when she was describing the roses
and why her mother did not want her to pick
up the rose.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Oh, I just her house.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I tried to get it across in the scripting, but
it did feel.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Like such a shrine.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
And the obsession with the roses and the kind of
religiosity that goes with that felt so interesting to me.
And the story of the picking up the rose there
was just something that felt almost too good to be true.
I guess it was such a perfect story that it
(03:52):
felt you know, I started to scratch my head a
little bit at that moment, thinking is this.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Is this real?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I'll give you that. Yeah, because when she talked about
the rose being dirty, I'm going, really rose being dirty,
And then when you stop to think about it, you're going, yeah,
yeah it is. I can understand.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah. It was just such a perfect story. And she
has these really perfect stories for so many moments of
her life. But I think she's a really naturally she's
a great storyteller, and so sometimes you're just caught off
guard by how good a story is.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Well, you're a great storyteller yourself, because you've got something
inside your heart that really has to be played out.
It is rule number one, locate the victim, and in
this storyline, Kelly is the victim.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yes, yeah, it was.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
I'd spent a lot of time thinking about the work
that I've done in the rest of the Girlfriends. Really,
I've been a victim's advocate from the beginning, but I've
told stories about very easy to understand victims. There've been
these kind of you know, the first season, a white,
(05:13):
middle to upper class Jewish lady from New York, just
so relatable everyone could kind of get behind her. The
second season, another more complicated victim, but still packaged within
a kind of family that you could really kind of
care about. And then I just wanted to say, like, hey,
(05:34):
there are victims who don't look as neat and tidy
as this. There are victims who'd kind of trigger your prejudices,
but they're still victims. And how do we react when
we start to try and show them the compassion that
we showed Girl and Heidi in the first two seasons.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You brought some light to my heart when you kind
of really jumped into this thought that there's a blurred
line between victim and villain, and you make me think
on your podcast, and that's a good thing.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
I hope you're not thinking too hard, but yeah, good,
I want you to think and there is a blurred
line between victim and villain, and all of us are
in that blurred line.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
That's not something that's unique to Kelly.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
I am not perfect, but I'm also not all bad,
and some people end up in a far more complicated
place in between those two.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But we have to reckon with that.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
We have to think about what it means to be
a villain and a victim in both parts.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
You didn't waste any time when it comes to letting
listeners know that that you know, this is not a
who done it? This right here is a story, and
I mean that's what I love about your honesty on
this is that it is not a who done it?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yeah. Yeah, I didn't want to.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Put Kelly on trial by media. I wasn't interested in
doing that because that didn't feel like, while we have
to acknowledge the the fact that she has been convicted
of this charge and there is every chance that she
did do this, that's not what the show is about.
That wouldn't be me being a victim's advocate. So instead
(07:12):
it was about what does this actually mean? What does
it say about society? What's the systemic issue at heart here?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
But they said that she was a villain. I mean,
I mean sitting there listening to her story and the
way that she shares that story, and yet people actually
thought she's a villain.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
They did, But when you listen to some of the
upcoming episodes, you'll realize.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That there are some reasons.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
That people have come to that conclusion. Personally, I don't
think they're good enough, but we'll let the listeners decide
that one, because, as I say, it's not a who
done it.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, You're absolutely right about that. And one of the
greatest things I guess what I'm feeling in this entire
story is is that from darkness there comes something greater.
And I love her comment when it comes to why
are you even doing this, Kelly, And basically it was
her way of saying, because nobody else is nobody else
is going to help these people, So it's me. I'm
doing the work.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, she's experienced injustice and she's not going to have it.
And I think we can all take something from Kelly
in that respect.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Would you say that, through her spirituality and religion, that
she's doing God's work.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I think that's what Kelly would say.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I think that's definitely what Kelly would say, I think
me and her have slightly different opinions on that, but
I think she's doing good work and that's more important
to me. Wherever that your source of inspiration comes from.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
If you're doing good, you're doing good.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Please do not move. There's more with Anna Sinfeld coming
up next. The name of the podcast The Girlfriends Jill
House Lawyer. We're back with Anna Sinfeld. This has to
be one of those storylines, so we're newer answers when
they would come at you, you would ask a question
and the answer was unexpected all of a sudden, your
gears had to s when you were taking notes.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't come into this story actually knowing
what I was going to get. There's a line in
the last episode where it's I kind of came into
this story thinking, thinking I knew what I wanted, thinking
I knew what was going to happen. But I had
to do a lot more work on myself when I
realized how much, you know, how much my journalism, how
(09:25):
much my my thinking had supported this idea that there
was such a thing as just like a bad person
and that the justice system somehow was working for them.
And so yeah, it's really changed me making this show
speak of.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Okay, let's let's talk about you and the'se podcasts, because
you know The Girlfriends has you know you're in this
this brand new season. A podcast requires a lot of work.
They announce the other day that Mark Maron is leaving
his podcast because of burnout. I face burnout every day.
How are you doing this? Are you facing burnout? And
as a podcaster, what can we teach those that are
behind us that are growing with it to reach beyond
(10:06):
you know, burnout and keep that story growing forward.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
But yeah, so I definitely have experienced kind of burnout,
and it's tough because you're constantly onto the next thing.
It never stops on The Girlfriends especially, But I guess
I will say that when I've done training for this
kind of what helps you get through is having a
sense of purpose in your work.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And it's probably.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
One of the main reasons why so much of The
Girlfriends ends up being about kind of trying to do
something good, trying to get to the bottom of something
that is kind of oppressive. We're always fighting against some
kind of oppresso on The Girlfriends, and I think that's
because I need something bigger than just making a show
that people listen to on their commute. I need it
(10:53):
to have impact. I need it to make a difference
in people's lives, and that keeps me alive and being
fed by all of the hard work that I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
But the bar on this one is so high. How
are you going to get over this one with Kelly?
Because we're talking about a woman who physically took the
time to learn the law and then to reach out
and help other people. I mean, that's a high bar.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
It's a very high bar. But We've got some amazing
shows coming up, so I'm not afraid of high bars.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Let's just push it, push it a bit higher.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
What are you learning from this? Because I mean, I
mean that you have to see humanism the way that
you guys are projected forward. And I do invite listeners
to go back to seasons one and two because I mean,
it really is journalism in its highest behavior.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Thank you. What was the first part of that question?
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Basically? You know, the thing is is that what are
you learning from each of these projects? Because I mean
you're standing right there face to face with humanism.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, Well what I'm learning is something that I feel
like has been an nate to me for a long time.
So one of the jokes in the first season is
always about how I'm another vegan because no one knew
what to feed me because I'm vegan. Whenever people I
don't really talk about being vegan them all that much.
(12:17):
I try not to be one of those. But whenever
people do ask me why I am, my stock answer
is always because the best thing about humans, the most
amazing advancement we have on every other living species, is
our ability to deal with complex morality, to have philosophies,
(12:37):
and for those to overcome these sort of like innate
feelings that we just have to eat something because it's
tasty or you know, all of this stuff. And I
think I really feel like that about the girlfriends. One
of the things that's teaching me is like I have
this ability to see people beyond their action at one
(12:57):
specific moment in time. I have the ability to show
people extended compassion and to find this kind of sisterhood.
Like I just think one thing that's made me feel
is that I just celebrate people so much, Like there
is goodness in everyone and in all our little interactions
that we have, and I'm happy about that.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Do you see yourself as a silent wolf in the
way of watching people, standing by and watching people and
learning from them.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
I've been criticized for my way of just sitting and staring.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
I mean, because I mean the way that you bring
a story to life. I mean, when you talked about
Kelly in twenty ten, sitting inside that police cell, she
was already working on a positive attitude. I mean the
way that you described that. I'm sitting there going, yeah,
you go, Kelly, I want to find out more about you.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, Well, because at that point she was at her lowest,
but she's also got all this spirit and energy and
drive and potential for something that her life up to
that point hasn't really let her make the most of.
And I think it's just so beautiful that in this
story you get to see her flourish, and it's in
(14:10):
a very unlikely place, it's in prison, but you see
her really come into her own and reach her potential.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
So then the next step that you're going to grow
into are you going to be the host of the
next one too, or are you going to pass it
along to one of the others that it's part of
your group.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
So we kind of we mix it up because it
really depends on the show. I mean, originally I always
had this philosophy that the women involved should be the hosts,
but that doesn't always work in reality. Sometimes it's not
helpful to a victim of something to be retraumatized enough
into making it work. So being a host is a
(14:49):
lot of hard work. So we mix that up. In
the next show that's coming out, there are women who
are at the center of the story, a story that
affects solely a black unity in a part of America,
and so we've got a cast of women who experienced
that experienced the traumas that were put against them by
(15:10):
the police, and they are hosting it because of course
it would be bananas for me to host that show.
But then the show after that I will be hosting,
and then another one that I won't, So we mix
it up. It also allows for my availability. Well.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
See, I like that because you know, one of the
things that a lot of these these true crime podcasts
do is they'll bring you You'll hear three, four, five,
six different voices, and you get lost in those voices
and you forget who the host really is, and so
that with you with you sharing the story, it's you
saying this is what happened, this is who's involved, We're
growing forward. So I really do like that idea where
(15:46):
there's not multiple layers there.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, I think it's really lovely to people. I've been
a kind of little companion the whole way through. I've
become more and more on Mike, but I've always been
there and hopefully I always will be. But I think
it's also really important for when a story isn't suitable
for me to host, me to kind of beckon other
people in who should be getting that limelight. So we'll
(16:09):
always make sure we do that on this show.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
How much sound did you gather with Kelly that did
not make it to this podcast? Where you're sitting there
now going ah, maybe we should have added that.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Oh, that's the worst feeling in the world.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yes, yeah, oh just hours, yeah, hours and hours and
hours and that there are a few moments where it's like, oh,
that would have been great. And sometimes you have those
moments of glory tape that you just try and squeeze
in but they actually don't make sense for whatever reason,
and you had that's one you just have to kind
of put your hands up and go, I guess I've
(16:42):
lost that one.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I totally get that because I will always save the original,
and then when I bring in a copy of it,
that's when I can sit there and I can cut
that monkey up so fast it's unbelievable. But if I
make a mistake, I've still got the original.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. And then you always
think maybe maybe I'll go back to it, and you
never do.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
You end up too far down the line.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So true, How are you able to keep it at
thirty five to forty minutes because you've got so much
information taking place, especially with someone like Kelly.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, that's I mean, it's a tough thing.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
But I get bored past that amount of time when
I listen to most other shows. So the motivation is
I don't want to be bored, and I don't want
my listeners to.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Be if possible.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
But I think scripting, it's all in scripting, because you
know that's what that's what scripting is for. It speeds
up the moments in between, It solidifies things that could
end up being kind of a rambling conversation. Yea, So
I really I love writing. Writing is kind of the
part of it. That I like the most, and so
we really dig into that.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
You would think I'm a freak because I all of
my scripting is done in my own handwriting, and because
I once I put it on a computer screen, I
feel like that I've gone mechanical.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Wow, I love that's that's very very old school, very analogue.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Well, I mean, I mean, when you've got that script
right there in front of you, I think what it
does is it brings out the radio announcer in me,
because that's how we do it in radio. And whereas
my handwriting I can feel, you know, that emotion. You
can tell by the swerve and curve of the words
what I'm supposed to be doing there.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, I can imagine that I've got really bad handwriting.
So I think you'd make me think everything I've said
is really bad.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Where can people go to find out more information about
you and everything that your entire team is doing, because
I want listeners to tap into your true crime.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, well so you can.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Actually you can find me on Instagram and TikTok, where
I'm posting weekly little updates and behind the scenes stuff
like We've got a really juicy moment coming up where
there's going to be a confession letter, and you only
hear snippets of it in the podcast, But actually I've
got videos where I read it to you in full
(19:02):
coming out on those channels. So if you want any
behind the scenes stuff, head there. But also you can
find us on LinkedIn and all of those things. But yeah,
Anna Sinfield, you can type that into TikTok or Instagram.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Well, you are a modern day journalist taking people to
places and it's not just a little four minute SoundBite
you found on some network.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Thank you so much, er, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I will will you'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Okay, yeah, well you too. Thank you.
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