#177 - Conscious Relationships & Medicinal Mushrooms w/ Chase & Mimi - Ascension of the Chessmen

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to Ascension of the Chessmen,diving into the esoteric, occult, spiritual,
and conspiratorial aspects of life, focusedon solutions to the problems we face
in our everyday lives. Let usascend above all differences. Let us be
the light in darkness, a breathof fresh air to those who can hardly

(00:23):
breathe, and together awaken into greatness. This is Ascension of the Chessmen,
with your host, Andre Middy.Welcome to the Ascension of the Chessmen podcast.
I'm your host, Andre Middy.Today's guests are a mushroom power couple,

(00:45):
the host of the Medicine podcast,and all around awesome human beings,
ladies and gentlemen, hobbins and fairies. Give a warm welcome to Chase and
Mimi. Wow. I love thefairies. I hope they're listening man,
and so glad to be here.Guys. Yeah, so happy to have
you guys. This is a specialepisode. I also have my girlfriend sitting

(01:07):
in with me. I give awarm welcome to Jordan. This or her
first podcast. Jordan, happy tohave you, Thanks for having me here.
Everybody beautiful, very grateful, beautiful, happy to get into it.
So yeah, I usually start myshow off with this first question for every
guest, But since you guys aretogether on this, I guess you could.

(01:30):
You could answer it together as acouple or individually however you feel called
to answer. But for those whoaren't familiar, can you, guys explain
what it is that you do?And I guess what woke you up to
realize and maybe there's more to thislife than you're originally taught or thought.
Yeah, absolutely, I can jumpin here. We are ex husband and

(01:53):
ex wife, Madlie in love andwe're happy about it. We are childhood
sweethearts. We got married really young, our early twenties. We actually divorced
in our mid twenties completely when ourseparate ways. Never thought we would see
each other ever again, never thoughtwe would talk to each other hardly ever
again. And call it fate ordivine intervention or God or the universe,

(02:13):
however you want to articulate that itwas three years after we were divorced that
we organically reconnected, actually out ofthe shared passion for medicinal mushrooms and holistic
health, only to realize there wassignificantly more meat on the bone, if
you will, to the relationship itself, and it wasn't that long after we
reunited as friends that we got backtogether as romantic partners. And we have

(02:37):
been back together four years now inwhat we call Part two of our relationship.
Although we are still legally divorced,we are as happy as ever in
the process of our reconciliation. Theselast three years, we've started a podcast
called The Medicine Podcast, and anextension of our passion for medicinal mushrooms and
the adaptogenic nature that they embody.UM we are supporting and UM really just

(03:04):
talking to the reality of what itmeans to find health, wellness, vitality,
love, abundance through these medicines,if you will. And we're not
talking about the ones in a yellowbottle, we're not talking about the ones
that get prescribed by your doctor.Rather, UM, these length that might
be you know, niche might beuh fringe to some UM, but really

(03:24):
have this holistic power of healing.UM. And then quite literally, we
offer some medicinal mushroom products that weare passionate about as a part of our
our business and through our podcast andthrough our website. So uh in a
nutshell, Yeah, that's it.That's the bullet points the skeleton. If
you will, of our of ourpast? Can you remind me what was

(03:46):
the second half of the question?Maybe I can, Maybe I can tackle
that one. Yeah, I guesswhat woke you guys up to realize?
And maybe there's more to this lifethan you're originally taught or thought. I'd
a lot. Yeah, yeah,I mean that could be the whole podcast,
right, But I would say whatinitially woke me up was it was

(04:10):
sort of indirectly, but it wasgetting a divorce that shook me. I
didn't really know it or feel itfully at the time. You're kind of
in just like shock of what's goingon, in denial to some degree,
suppression of emotional trauma, real feelingslike that was me at least. I'll
let Chase speak for himself, butI'm sure it's similar. And so that

(04:34):
really was like a huge like girlfriend'sstop, like slow down, think about
if this you know, this personthat you envisioned spending your life and having
kids with, then growing old with, then your best friend in the world,
someone you thought was your soulmate.If that's not it, what is

(04:59):
and how how do I like rebuildand you know, create a life that
I that I love. And itreally started with you know, um looking
at my insides and um really gettingstill and balanced. And it started with
my physical health. You know,I had some issues going on physically,

(05:20):
and then it slowly grew into likeemotional health, like starting to untangle the
cobwebs from our divorce and the emotionaltrauma that I put myself through. Um,
And so it just slowly but surely, like I started untangling and unwinding
things, and um, you know, started asking questions that I had never

(05:42):
asked before, you know, whenit comes to religion and spirituality, things
that I believed about God and myrelationship to this being. Who is this
being? Who is Jesus? Youknow, we grew up in the evangelical
Christian Church and Christian School our wholelife, and so there was a lot
of dogma in the childhood that wesort of had to also sift through and

(06:05):
decide where do I go from here? What do I actually believe? What
makes sense to me? And Chasewas also doing the same in all of
those lanes, physical emotional health andthen also within spirituality and that you know,
that initial break, you know thatthat divorce was really the impetus for

(06:28):
me to start questioning what I hadthought was going to be my life.
Wow. Yeah, No, supersimilar for me. I think I've always
had a sense of there's got tobe more than this, and I kind
of went with the flow as itpertains to Christianity because generally it just wasn't
causing any problems necessarily in my lifeup until the point of probably eighteen years

(06:49):
old or so. And then Ireally started a question that that religion.
And I think the divorce accelerated thatquestioning. I think when we divorced and
split up and I went and youknow, explored and found myself in my
twenties a little bit, that acceleratedit. I think the use of plant
medicine accelerated that even further. Andso probably, but it probably started very

(07:11):
young. I have a pretty rationalpart of me that started to try to
piece together some of the contradictions withinChristianity and was like, I think there's
more. I think there's more goingon here. Totally probably, Yeah,
I took a very similar path Chase. Uh. You know, growing up
raised Catholic, I was baptized Lutheranas a baby, you know, a

(07:34):
part of many different churches and affiliationswithin the overarching thing we call Christianity.
Then, you know, leaving theCatholic Church after high school, like you
know, learning about the pedophilia andother issues within the church that were you
know, you were demonized even bringup. And I found this Pentecostal church

(07:58):
and saw people speaking and tongues andit was like a wholer opposite right,
a Catholic bass, which is likedry and you know, a very monotone.
And my pastor actually decided to becomea pastor because of this breakthrough experience
he had had on LSD and wow, Yeah, he talked about this chessboard

(08:24):
flying off the table and landing perfectlyon the floor with one piece still standing,
and it was a white king.So he saw that as a sign,
like a divine intervention in his lifeto go to Bible School and become
a pastor. And then in mytime going to that church, I was,
you know, an active participant.I was going every Sunday for a
good two three years on my ownspiritual journey as far as my definition of

(08:48):
God still being within a church.Like to my understanding at that time,
I would have my own breakthrough withLSD and that I would go on to
leave the church and I had foundthat experience that I had always been looking
for in that direct connection with God. So, uh it was it was
a very similar path for me inthat regard. Uh. So I relate

(09:11):
to you you specifically a lot onthat man and yeah, getting into more
holistic health and you know, seeingyou know, the spiritual components to certain
injuries or diseases and all this stuffand starting to connect the dots that it's
all connected, and uh, youknow, bringing it full circle for me.

(09:35):
But um, I appreciate that youguys, you know, bring that
full circle. And you know,I think you know just what you guys
are involved in and the mechanics ofit. You show that it works and
you know what it's done for youguys, not just individually, but impacted
your relationship and brought you back together. So it's quite beautiful to watch and

(09:56):
listen to. Yeah, absolutely,but yeah, I know it's it's amazing
how many people we come into contactwith who have a similar uh you know,
childhood pertaining to some level of churchor religious connection. And um,
I think I spent a lot oftimes in so much bitterness that I wasn't
able to see a lot of thereally amazing things about those communities and those

(10:16):
environments, and and uh, Ithink there's even an aspect of that that
our generation of millennials misses because somany of us have left the church.
And it's it's not that we missthe dogmatic religious aspect of it as much
as we miss the community. Wemiss the idea, the shared idea that

(10:37):
there's something greater than us that wecan serve or be a part of participating
in and interacting with. There's uh, like practical resources like childcare, and
you have trusted people in your life. And this world is chaotic, and
the way that we change this isnot by the next president or the next
world leader. It's actually starts withyou know yourself, right, it's you

(11:00):
and yourself, your radical accountability,responsibility to yourself. But then it's your
family, and then it's your neighborhoodand your community. And if this becomes
a bottoms up approach, we startto actually like make legitimate progress in the
world. And I think some ofthose attributes of religion and church kind of
embodied a resource for having impactful change, and even just the nutrient of community

(11:24):
and relationships that are kind of withinthe domain of church have so much value.
And I think I've been guilty ofthrowing the baby out with the bathwater
pertaining to religion because I can't andhaven't been able to see past the dogma
and you've been burned by a totallypeople in the church and things like that.
But but definitely an area that we'rethinking on a lot more. And

(11:46):
we have a beautiful community in SanDiego. We're really close with Paul Check
and a lot of his extended family, if you will, But really kind
of pulling on some of those threadsa little bit more like, hey,
community, okay, connect Even thingslike the worship music at churches is sound
healing. You know, We've we'vetrickled into the holistic health, mindfulness,
spiritual space and people are using bowlsand drums and there's this really powerful exchange

(12:13):
of oneself with interaction to the divinethrough music and it's like, oh my
god, we were just doing soundhealing when we were growing up in the
four Square Church or whatever. Andso there's been some light bulb moments,
especially of late, where I thinkI think we can pull on some of
those core foundational pillars of what itmeant to be a part of a community

(12:35):
that interacted with God and see howwe can put that into our life currently,
right. Yeah. I mean Ithink if if there's a church out
there that was openly talking about thehidden meetings within it, within the Great
Book and you know, peeling backthe layers a bit and speaking on more
esoteric subjects within the text, Ithink, you know, I would be

(13:00):
happening with open arms. You know, That's what I'd love to see,
like more preachers from the pulpit preachingyou know, like's good to the deeper
meaning here, like the root,And I think it would just open people
up to new horizons and new perspectiveson you know, what they hold so
dear to their heart. You know, I'm not taking away people's experiences,

(13:20):
like if that's what's for you,like that's what was made for you.
And how can I judge someone thatisn't judging anyone for you know, what
they're finding fulfilling in life. Andyou know, I've just kind of went
on my own path since then ofspirituality. And it's it's kind of funny

(13:41):
because all my years within private schooland with in and out of churches being
a you know, regular participant,Like I read more of the Bible after
leaving the church, and then whenI was in it, like actually studying
the four Gospels and the words Jesushad attributed to him. You know,
you google it, it's like anywherefrom eight hundred to a thousand words Jesus

(14:03):
actually said in that text, right, and there's eight hundred thousand words in
the Bible, So like to likehone in on the words that he actually
said. I think you've got toseparate the message from the messenger. And
like that's been a heavy lesson inmy life of like learn learn the message

(14:24):
so you can implement it into yourlife and not get lost in the sauce
of like it's this external savior andwe don't have to do any work.
He's gonna come and save us,Like we can keep sinning or you know,
having vices or whatever and not likebetter ourselves and evolved. You know.
So that's kind of where I've cometo with it. Totally yeah,

(14:46):
completely aligned. Yeah, but uhyeah, I guess what was the motivation
and like um general curiosity that ledyou. I guess you both met back
with the medicinal mushrooms. So wheredid it all start with that? I
guess I'll start with you first,Mimi. Yeah, So I first learned

(15:11):
about the concept of medicinal mushrooms throughpodcasts shout out to The Model Health Show
with Sean Stevenson. It was somethingI binged and I as I was navigating
my own health issues, it wasI never had like a diagnosis, but

(15:33):
it was pretty much self induced hypothyroidism, overly stressed adrenal fatigue from you know,
sort of orthorexic tendencies in my lifefor years, over exercising and not
eating enough, not on purpose.Really, I just didn't really grasp how

(15:54):
much I was energy I was puttingout versus how much I was nourishing myself.
And when you do that, especiallyas a woman, for years,
things start to break down. Andthat was the case with me. So
I had all these crazy symptoms,rash on half my body, my hair
was falling out, my face wasblowing up, an acne that I had
never had before, couldn't digest anyfood, and I just I'd had no

(16:17):
idea what was actually wrong with me. It can't be the working out that's
like super healthy, right, Itcan't be the fact that I don't eat
carbs. That's healthy, right.It can't be the fact that I intermittent
fast every day for a year that'ssuper healthy. Right. All these things
that I had in my head,and so I put myself into this sort
of self induced disease state, andmedicinal mushrooms were really a light bulb for

(16:40):
me understanding more of how I couldbe my own best advocate by incorporating these
adaptogenic nature's doctors. Really, andso as I was binging all of these
health podcasts, you know, Iwas listening all day every day as much
as I could, really learning like, Okay, what is real health?

(17:00):
How do I get there? Howdo I figure this out? Because my
doctors aren't helping me, No onecan help me. It feels like like
this feels like it's on me.And so I started learning about you know,
Chaga, Raci, cortess, EPs, lions, main, you know,
the main ones, the big onesthat for Sigmatic always talks about and
educates on, and started using themin my own life. And then actually

(17:22):
where my interest and use of medicinalmushroom turned into sort of an obsession was
one day I was a dental hygienistor still am, but don't practice clinically
anymore. I was at my atmy job and heard from one of the
patients that was in our office whohad gotten diagnosed with HPV human papeloma virus

(17:45):
later in life in her like fifties. She had used this mushroom. I
put that in quotes to help clearher HPV and it worked. And I
was like, uh, excuse me, what is this thing? I need
to know about it. You knowwhat mushroom is it? Is it rashi?
Is it chaga? And she saidit's AHCC. And I had never

(18:07):
heard of a mushroom called AHCC,And so I immediately go on doctor Google,
and I'm like, what is thisthing? And I see right away
mind blowing testimonials. I see thatit has its own research association, and
I'm like, holy crap, thisthing is legit. What is this?
And so I start ordering textbooks andI order the product for myself, and

(18:30):
I find that it's not actually amushroom in and of itself. It comes
from shitake mushrooms. It's the basicallya cultured, patented process of culturing the
masilia of shitake mushrooms and it's beenaround since the late eighties, and you
know, it's used all over theworld. And I just started gobbling up

(18:53):
so much information and I was like, if this thing is as amazing as
all of these books and clinical studiesare saying it is, I need to
know about this. I want everyonein my family on this stuff, and
I need to tell the world eitherjust my patience or whatever. And that
actually grew into, to sort ofmake a long story short, that grew

(19:15):
into as I was making a lotof lifestyle changes in my life at that
time. Stepped away from dental hygiene, moved back in with my parents at
twenty eight, which was a littleblow to the ego. But I was
really trying working on getting myself healthyon every level physical, mental, spiritual,
emotional, everything. And I enrolledat the Academy of Culinary Nutrition and

(19:40):
was in that program for four months. And I created this food and put
HCC in this food and started sellingit on Instagram. I started getting it
out there and you know, shippingand sort of became an overnight entrepreneur.
Kind of on accident, I guess, but it really was like a edge
for me to see that there wasa need that people were interested in this

(20:06):
thing. They were interested because itwas this fun little cookie dough bite basically
that was healthy, and they startedlearning about HCC. I actually and then
in twenty nineteen, I went tosupporto Japan, where all of the HCC
in the world is a manufacturer.They have a patent on this process,
so all of it comes from onesource, and I was offered a private

(20:30):
label of AHCC. It's called ImmuneIntel HCC is what we named it.
And I needed to know, likefrom A to Z that this thing was
legit. I went and I attendedthe International Congress on Nutrition and Integrative Medicine
in Japan, where people from allover the world were presenting their newest clinical

(20:56):
research on HCC. Did that forthree days and then was able to really
see where HCC comes from and meetpeople in the supply chain. All of
that was like, Okay, thisis a go, this is a full
body fuck. Yes, I'm inthis. I gotta tell the world about
this stuff. Because one of themajor studies that I that I was just
like so fascinated by was actually anHPV study and you know, sixty four

(21:22):
percent of the women in this studywere cleared of their HPV. After six
months of using HCC and when Icame back and started teaching or just sharing
just kind of haphazardly on Instagram aboutHPV and that it's helpful for HPV,
I had droves of women finding meand asking for help, like what is

(21:44):
the thing? How do I getit? How much do I take all
of this? And I really sawthat there was a huge need for this
in the world. So I said, this was a long story short,
but it hasn't been sure the longstory long. So that is really where
I sort of became more niche inthe HCC world is helping women who are

(22:07):
and men for that matter too.Men find me as well. It's just
I'm obviously women are drawn to memore for help. And also women are
the ones that get the diagnosis ofHPV. Men generally don't get the diagnosis.
They're not going in there's no equivalentof a pap smear for a man.
And so yeah, women find menow from all over the world.
And I have hundreds of testimonials ofwomen who you know, had HPV for

(22:33):
a very long time or you know, it just got diagnosed and now they
need they need help. And sothat is really, where my obsession with
mushrooms has has its roots is helpingpeople who are desperate for answers and not
getting help from other healthcare practitioners.I suppose I'll kick it to Chase for
the rest of the story here.Yeah, but mine is legitimately quick.

(22:56):
When we were divorced, I hit, you know, we split up been
I'd had this very twisted perception ofhealth. I was a college athlete,
and it always stayed very active andhad gotten in my own stress and it
worked a very high intensity job whereI was traveling a lot. I'd gotten
really obsessive, compulsive as it pertainedto my exercise habits, in my eating

(23:17):
habits, and so much. Iwas just working out way too much and
at times not eating enough, attimes eating too much, and just had
this really sort of like grotesque relationshipto food. And so I'd gotten twenty
seven years old, I'd been divorcedfor a year, and even though I
looked physically great, I hit justan absolute brick wall pertaining to my hormones.

(23:38):
It was deemed adrenal exhaustion. Iknow that's a charged term in kind
of the health space, but Iessentially had, you know, dropped my
testosterone significantly lower than it should befor a twenty seven year old who essentially
looked like I did you know,I had a six pack and was buff
and and so I took a hugeleft turn in my life, left my

(24:02):
h it was a public accounting andfinance job for a big firm, and
I'd left that. I started todiy some of these you know, the
doctor, the main doctor when Igot my blood back, bloodwork bout because
like, we need to give youa testosterone like injections. And at twenty
seven years old, I knew enoughto not know to know that that wasn't
great at that age. And soI'm kind of going the alternative route.

(24:23):
And I'm looking at these other things, and I hear about adaptogens, and
I hear about mushrooms, and I'mstarting to look into mushroom coffees and mushroom
teas and mushroom extracts. You know, Cortceps rashi lions made these adaptogenic allies
that we have in the fungus kingdom, the fungi kingdom, and finding just
a ton of benefit from using themon a daily basis, like high doses,

(24:48):
you know, one to two gramsof each one of these, and
when we reconnect, I had recentlygotten so passionate about this space of holistic
health. I had started insulting withand ultimately worked for a company called Organify
that was making adaptogenic supplement blends thatyou could make in waters and teas and

(25:08):
coffee and things of that nature,and had gotten just really immersed in this
community, which made for kind ofthe perfect catalyst. The perfect medium for
us to reunite is because we didn'ttalk about our divorce, We hardly talked
about our past. We were bothjust like dorking out so hard about mushrooms
and holistic health that it was nothingbut friendship. And we were both just

(25:30):
blown away that we'd had these verysimilar journeys despite the fact that we were
not in touch with each other atall, and we'd both hit our own
rock bottoms from a health standpoint,left our careers and found literally the same
type of supplemental, adaptogenic and herbalprotocol to find ourselves not only healthier,

(25:51):
but in our lane of passion whatwe wanted to do for our livelihood.
So all of a sudden, weget this like brand new friendship relationship as
the best rock to what is nowPart two and thank you mushrooms there.
It's it's our, It's our literally, it's literally our logo. Yeah yeah,
I love you guys's logo so muchI need yeah yeah, um yeah.

(26:17):
Do you want to say something Jordan? Uh Andrea was talking a little
bit earlier and reflecting on some correlationsbetween the four of us and within our
relationship both growing up UH in theoverarching Christian dichotomy, Catholic high school and
whatnot. UM. I caught somethings that you both had shared in your

(26:41):
conversation together about Um Jesus living inour hearts and things that we went through
with our parentals and feeling as ifas a kid, the fear of losing
that divinity or not having or havingthat to be gone or um scared that
it will leave you. And thatwas definitely a triggering topic for Andrea and

(27:03):
Anya time Jesus would be brought up, and so he noticed that there was
some meriam with things that we havegone through with yourselves. And I heard
you Chase talk once about plant medicineand things kind of opening your mind which
they have for us as well.Just was going to see if you wanted

(27:25):
to share a little bit about thator reflect to the listeners. Yeah.
Absolutely, so you know a littlebit of my journey. I started really
having questions around Christianity in college andhad chosen by the time I was probably
twenty or twenty one, that Iam not a Christian, and if for
a while it was it was justlike, I'm not a Christian. It's

(27:45):
not important enough for me right nowto go down, you know, the
rabbit hole of trying to figure outwhat I believe. I'm concerned about my
career, about making money, aboutkind of moving on with my life.
I'll worry about this later, butI couldn't help. I just have this
deep question as to where we camefrom, why are we here, what's
our purpose? And so I'd continueto just deep dive on that those topics.

(28:06):
That's where I found podcasting. Quitehonestly, it was a Joe Rogan
listener back in you know, college, and he's bringing on these crazy characters.
This guy named Aubrey Marcus, who'snow just like a superstar in this
in this realm, was talking aboutpsychedelics. Yeah, and I'm like,
holy shit, I had no cluethis ayahuasca, had no idea what that
was? Never heard of it?You hear in the in the world that

(28:29):
we grew up in. It waslike acid, weed, mushrooms, cocaine,
meth, it's all the same thing. It's all in this bucket of
just bad. Don't right, don'ttouch it. And a few people got
in trouble in the sixties for screwingaround with it, and and that was
it. That was the extent ofmy knowledge until I heard Aubrey tell his
story of going through ayahuasca, andthen I just got just deeply curious and

(28:52):
learned that magic mushrooms were actually likethis really powerful and LSD. It was
this just transformative cultural um in injectionin the sixties that just like radically changed
the way that that people lived inthe end, but that had gotten like
stomped out. So I'm pretty curious, not spiritually, not spiritually curious.
I'm I'm a guy, and evenback then without having a spiritual aspect of

(29:18):
my life, I just want toexperience life. I think what I did
know is that we're here and weshould probably experience be experiencing things. And
so I've I've always had this mottoand it's softening a little bit now,
but I would just I would sayI'll say yes to anything once. I'll
say yes to anything once. AndI hesitate to say that now because I've
got you know, i've got alife. I've got some things to lose

(29:40):
now, you know. And I'vehad I've had people respond to that with
like, oh, yeah, you'dkill somebody once, and I'm like,
okay, wait, wait, don'tdon't take it. So it was kind
of a motto that I was like, Hey, when the opportunity presents itself,
I'm gonna this is a this isa hell yes. And so I
didn't go searching for it, whichI can't say was a conscious decision.
I just had had felt like,you know, the opportunity would present itself,

(30:03):
and it did. I'd screwed aroundat parties and things of that nature
with like LSD and it was funand the colors were great, but it
wasn't a spiritual experience. And soin a setting there was a shaman and
a group. I actually had myfirst deep still a syman experience when I
was twenty eight years old and we'dbeen divorced for about a year and a

(30:27):
half, and I went into itjust totally open. But at that point
I was probably agnostic, had gottenreally fascinated by the way that Sam Harris
looked at the world, looked atGod or the idea of God, and
so I was like, hey,I don't know, this is too complex
to know. I got a feelingthere's something else, but we're probably never

(30:48):
going to figure it out, Sowhy waste my time overthinking this thing?
Well, after this very deep psychedelicexperience with psilocybin in a ceremonial setting,
it was just a complete shatter ofthe way that I saw the divine or
the metaphysical at large. And youknow, I had some as one does

(31:10):
in these experiences, you have amillion takeaways, you know. Probably the
biggest one was that I had thisrealization that i'd been through my skepticism and
through the bitterness that I continued tohold as a part of my identity pertaining
to Christianity, I had kept adistance, regardless of how rational it was
and how justified it was to havebitterness. By keeping it in my life,

(31:32):
I was actually keeping it between theopportunity to experience love, And in
that moment, love felt like Godto me, and so I felt like
I was staring at God or interactingwith God. But it was really just
love. I mean, it wasa ball of light that was like more
shiny than anything that I could possiblyimagine. And yeah, maybe it was
some other somebody might have a morearticulated, spiritual definition of what that could

(31:56):
be, but to me in thatmoment, it felt like some sort of
symbol for unconditional love. And Iwas keeping things in my life that were
essentially just separating me from experiencing thatnectar. And so it was such a
huge takeaway that, Yo, dude, you're probably never going to be able
to like rationalize this and systematize itand figure it out and have this definition

(32:20):
for what it is, but youcan't experience it in a real way.
The experiential knowledge that you can getfrom accessing or having a practice of attempting
to access or communicate with this thingthat you'll probably never really know what it
is but has profound benefit, hasthe potential to inject a significant amount of
love and abundance and vitality in yourlife and the crazy thing. And so

(32:45):
that was like the biggest takeaway fromthat experience, in addition to like absolute
gratitude for my parents, a significantamount of empathy for their lives that I
probably have never ever experienced or satin for long, and then may getting
Her actual name is Megan, soI refer to her as Megan was in
the experience as well, and wehad not gotten back together at that point,

(33:07):
we had really not talked, butI quite literally felt her hand in
the experience and she was holding methrough this interaction that I was having with
love. And so from that pointon, man, it's been my life
has never been the same. AndI know these stories as people talk about
them and the psychonauts articulate them,and it's getting a little more mainstream,

(33:27):
it can become like hyperbole, butlike, I shit you not, my
life has never been the same.It was that drastic. I stepped out
of that experience and looked have lookedat everything differently since then. But you
you did the work. It's like, it's not the journey that is the
work, that's just pulling the veilback, it's just illumination, and he

(33:52):
has done the work to transform andchange his life. It's not necessarily the
medicine and that did that, butit was illuminating in such a way that
you could take action towards this newtin this new noetic sense that you had.
Yeah, absolutely, thank you.Yeah, and it's it's become a

(34:13):
really critical part of our lives.But I also hesitate to say that too,
because we are not tripping. Wein fact have maybe one journey a
year at this point, and Ilook at them and we treat them as
if we are doing a marathon,like a like a competition marathon, where
there's where there's a significant amount ofeffort, energy and emotions being poured into

(34:38):
it such that you wouldn't you wouldn'tdo a triathlon every weekend. Now you
would wreck your body. You'd beexposing yourself to too much tension. There's
no chance for integration, there's nochance to rest, recover, recuperate.
And I look at these environments withplant medicine in the same way, and

(35:00):
it is very intentional, but it'salso just so critically important to be able
to integrate process. I'm still pickingthrough moments of realization from journeys a year
ago still to this day, andwe've we had one earlier this year that
we're still kind of unraveling and unwrappingand stepping into moments where it's clicking,

(35:25):
Like wow, that was it.And if you flood yourself with those experiences,
I just don't know if you havethe opportunity to learn from the minutia
of those journeys, because like that'sactually where the sweet spot is. Is
these these weird things that don't makesense to you in that moment show themselves

(35:46):
to you through the actions of yourlife. And I think that's really where
a lot of the sauces. Yeah, it's like you're missing the boat.
You know. It wasn't until Idrank Iowa Scout when like that was clear
to me, Like okay, likenow I understand what's going on here,

(36:06):
because like it was the first timeI had seen like integration alongside the experience,
because you know, if you gethanded some shrims at a party or
a tab at acid or whatever,like no one's like okay, uh,
integration meeting starts at this time,and yeah, here's what we're going to

(36:27):
talk through the experience and like havegroup therapy. Yeah. Yeah, none
of that had occurred to me atthat point. Like I was having a
good time and like I got somemajor wake up calls, but like that
alongside it really shifted how I wouldsee them and like going forward, like
how I would treat them, andlike the respect I would give to them,

(36:49):
and like prepare the space, likeprepare the date, like prepare myself
and my mind, body and spiritbefore a ceremony like that, because like
it's like you said, you're nota marathons every weekend, right, right,
And there's there's nothing wrong to beclear, Like I don't believe there's
anything wrong with people enjoying LSD ormushrooms or maybe ecstasy or whatever it is,

(37:14):
like microdosing in a recreational that isperfectly fine for people to choose to
do with their own life. It'sjust going into it. We've heard stories
from people where they're expecting something outof an experience like that without the proper
preparation, intention and integration afterwards,they're expecting these downloads, but they're at

(37:37):
house party, or they're you know, they're distracted by something, or they're
just they're just not um giving themselvesthe space to fully receive all of that
that goodness. But it's just likewhat what do you want to experience?
If you want to experience lightness andfun and whatever, yeah, it might
work out, like that, butalso you it might be really disturbing if

(38:00):
you're in a party scenario or whatever. Just crappy, wide open. Yeah,
you're like a lot of times becausepeople will be interested, they see
the logo on the podcast, andwe get the question all the time like
where do you get it? Howdo you do this? And I almost
want to be like, like,slow your role a little bit because because
for me, I had that feelingfor a while where I was like,

(38:22):
oh, because I've had very funexperiences and I kind of have been through
that. But at this point nowit's such a portal too deep um experiential
knowledge that it's almost like I feelas if I owe my relationship to these
medicines to be just a little moreintentional with the way that I that I

(38:47):
interact with them, almost different,almost like I am meeting a teacher,
like in the same way that Iwouldn't haphazardly use my dear friend and mentor
polcheck in a way that was shallow. I have so much love and respect
for him that that as we interactin what or other whatever setting, whether

(39:07):
it's light or whether it is quiteserious or therapeutic, I'm having an intention
for the relationship and kind of attemptingto hold the space for that based on
the intention I can. I'm completelyaligned with that, man. I was
just gonna say, like it alsomade me realize a lot I relate to

(39:29):
and what you said about, youknow, when I did go down in
Journey with Ayah and having the shamanthere present and like the ceremonial aspect to
it versus like a party scene orat a rave or something, and it
said a completely different tone. Butyou know, you know, I feel
like when I left, it wasall about like I gotta tell everybody about

(39:49):
this, and like everybody needs togo journey now, and like you realize
no one gives a shit, Likeyou go back to the same environment,
Yeah, like you've changed, youknow, you've had this through experience,
and you come back home and it'sall the same friends, all the same
environment, and you realize, likethat's when the work is just beginning.
Like you are the medicine, andyou want to give credit to the medicine

(40:10):
itself, Like the medicine gave youthe roadmap and you have to integrate that
into your life. And I alwayssay, like even before I did,
I would tell friends this, likelife is a trip, Like life is
the trip itself. Enjoy it,Enjoy the ride, and like the experiences
I've had the synchronicities, Like it'sso fucking magical once you have your eyes

(40:34):
open to what's always around you,you know. Yeah, Yeah, that's
something that I was surprised by pleasantlyis understanding and engaging and having a few
of these medicinal experiences. Early on, I realized that it really woke me
up to how much magic and juiceand pleasure is all around me in my

(40:59):
life everywhere. And it takes onelittle micro dose of LSD and of the
right flower and you realize, like, holy shit, there is magic everywhere
for me to enjoy and to bringmore fulfillment and satiation to my life in
the simplest of ways. Yeah,it's I've been really thinking about this a

(41:22):
lot lately, and I feel likeI'm finally starting to like actually understand it
almost physically in my body, becauseI have been frustrated by this move,
this this popularity of plant medicine andtherapy as well even just like traditional talk
therapy, because you can go haveone of these really profound experiences and feel

(41:46):
as if you've healed. But Idon't think that's where the healing takes place.
I think the healing is actually inthe future and the let's just use
the flower analogy where or a plantanalogy where when you're on psychedelics and you
look at a plant, you understandthe beauty, you grasp the beauty,
the wow, that's amazing. Butnext week or a month from now or

(42:07):
three months from now, when yousee that flower or a flower, are
you going to stop everything and gothis close to it and look at it
and appreciate it while you're sober,Like that's that's the medicine or Okay,
you understand the empathy that you havefor your parents and you're like, wow,
I know that the relationship has beenreally charged at times, but when

(42:27):
I was on mushrooms, I hadthis understanding of all of the things that
they sacrificed, how many challenges theywent through, and so you have this
deep feeling. Well, what happensnext time when you're home and one of
your parents triggers the shit out ofyou because they're treating you like you're thirteen
years old again, And that's whenyou have to sit back and go this

(42:47):
is the work this is actually wherethe healing takes place. And so we've
gotten this little sliver of what healingfeels like and a lot of times to
so many of us have various degreesof trauma to work through from our childhood,
that it feels good to be inthat moment of realizing that you've been
traumatized and you know, victim culture. I'm using the air quotes, but

(43:10):
I think it is it is fineto be in that seat for a minute
and to understand that and to letit sink in and to feel the feels
of what it was like to havehave been through something really challenging. But
I just don't know if it's ifit's full healing or at least healing to
the degree that it could be,until you start working through it, through

(43:30):
the choices of your life, throughthe relationships of your life, how you
treat yourself, how you treat yourfamily. And yeah, it's it's like
we have to go back so thatwe can for our future. We have
to be able to go back andanalyze our past and the traumas and the
challenges. But if we stay inthe past, we won't have a future

(43:52):
either. And so it's this interestingrelationship between both and plant medicine is such
a such a powerful tool for this, but it actually is the work on
the other side of it that Ithink is where the healing takes place.
Completely agree. You know. Itbrought up two powerful quotes for me.
You know, I always say theold adage chop wood before enlightenment, chop

(44:15):
wood and carry watter after a chopwould carry water, like there's always more
one to chop, like the workhas never done. And you know you
quickly find that out, Like afterthe two weeks pass after your ceremony and
you're right back to square wood.Yeah, it's like you're back into work
emails, you know, like it'sjust like the world keeps going totally.

(44:38):
Yeah. I mean, Paul Checkalways talks about um like before you even
think about psychedelics, like try anhour standing meditation for a week, you
know, stand for an hour andmeditate for a week or or we go.
There's a workshop that he does thatwe've been through a few times now
where you spend two you go andyou think you're working with Paul Check.

(44:59):
You're like, oh, my assumeso magical, so crazy, all these
spiritual tools, you know, we'reworking with Gandalf here, and he'll send
you out into the kind of likea nature scene or like the wildern Orst
the wilderness, and you you takea rock with you and you have another
rock, and you are pounding rocksfor two hours straight. That's the rock

(45:21):
stopping. That's the spirit. Twohours of pounding rocks together in nature,
and it's it's actually that level.You know. It's kind of like Yoda
in Star Wars when he's making Lukedo all of these like absurd things,
and Luke's like, yo, wherecan I use the lightsaber? Like where
are we here? But like oddlyenough, those are where it's like you

(45:42):
start, you start meeting your egoreally quick, right yeah, um yeah,
I think you guys have said iton one of yours shows, which
I've heard before, but you know, Rob Dows's old if you think you're
at liant to go spend a weekwith your chamb. Yeah. Yeah,
it's the truest thing ever. Andit's the ultimate test. And it's like
it's not like it's a flip ofa switch and one day you're just like

(46:06):
perfect. It's like slow gradual,like every time you're around your family or
whoever the you know, maybe it'sa friend group or I don't know,
but family especially they know your buttons. They created you, like they know
who you were in your past asa child. Sometimes you get pinned as
oh, the smart one, thefunny one, the goofy one, the

(46:29):
responsible one, the penny pincher,whatever, and they want to keep you
there because that, you know,on a subconscious level, feels more comfortable
to them. And so, youknow, sometimes and we've both dealt with
this, And I'm the youngest andChases a middle child, and we've both
been pinned by our family in thepast about like, wait, that's not

(46:50):
who you are. This is whoyou are, that's who I thought you
were. And it can't be metwith like a head on like no,
you know, like a conflict typeof it's a slow unraveling of no,
this is who I am now byyou know, showing them by your embodiment,
not necessarily your words, but likewith your actions. And slowly,

(47:13):
over time it's gotten to this pointwhere both of us and our families we've
been able to kind of just likekeep hands off and as much as we
want to like get in there andtell people like help them and oh,
do this, I know exactly howto fix your problems, and all these
things like you should try this,you should try this supplement. It's hands
off and it's just embodiment. Andwhat we see is people come around and

(47:36):
it's a slow progression of people becomingmore interested in who you are on the
inside now and also what you're doingthat is so supportive of a tree that's
growing amazing fruit, you know,And so that's that's been a big lesson
for both of us. Yeah,you said something, Andrea around. You

(47:58):
know, you go through one ofthese experiences and you want to come back
and tell everybody about it, right, And it's very natural. And that's
not just with plant medicine, it'swith everything. It's with like we've learned
so much about our relationship, aboutabout relationships just through our own experience.
We've done a lot of study,a lot of deep work, like really
really learned from some masters. Andthe same thing with health, and so

(48:22):
we have this impulse to just likeshout it from the mountaintops. And again
where we're talking about the real workhere, the real healing, the real
progress is actually having the ability tosit for a moment and realize the audience.
And it can vary depending on theaudience, but oftentimes it's family or
close friends where you've you've built upthis like, oh my god, I've

(48:44):
found the nectar. I've found theelixir of life, and I'm ready to
bring it back to you guys,right like this is my hero's journey.
Here I am stepping back through thethreshold and providing the the elixer for everyone,
the antidote. And they're like,fuck off whatever. It's like,
we don't want to hear what youhave to say, Like, there they
are, and it's it's not you, it's not them. This is just

(49:06):
humans. You are exactly. Andso the work is actually being in peace
and staying calm and knowing that theopportunity will present itself should you embody consistently
what you've learned don't. And sometimesthat looks one way and other times it

(49:28):
will look differently. Sometimes it canbe really convenient where someone's like, hey,
you look great or you sound great. You seem like you've changed what
have you been doing, And it'sthat easy, and then you get an
opportunity. Other times it's more difficult. With family, it's it's there's so
many um family or close friends.There's so many predefined expectations of who you

(49:50):
are, that stuff that there's anunwillingness to see you in the newer version
of yourself. But you'll get momentsand like I'm just gonna use an example
with my mother, who's like justbeing so incredible. She's such a wonderful
woman, but she's got a fixedmindset in a lot of ways, and
some of the breakthroughs that I've hadin my life, I want to communicate
to her more gratitude, more lovethan I have for her, but she's

(50:15):
not capable at times of being ableto receive that or accept it or absorb
it. And that's through the armorthat she's had to wear through life.
Is probably why, right, Butthere can be moments. Maybe it's when
the entire families together on Christmas Day, or maybe her and I and you
know, my dad and Megan havejust finished a hike and we're sitting on

(50:36):
top of a mountain where I canphysically see that there's a little opening where
that where the armor is down fora minute. This the way that she
had to carry her whole life toget out of poverty, to build a
business and create a family. It'sjust it's down for a minute, and
that's my chance to just throw myarms around her and hug her, and
I don't have to say anything,but I can just hold her against my

(50:58):
chest for a minute and override thatinability for her through the mechanisms that she's
had to build in this life tosurvive, but just override it for a
minute, and I can just likeliterally stamp the amount of love that I've
accumulated for her on her in thatmoment. And it is those moments that
maybe aren't as direct or how youwould envision, like being able to preach

(51:22):
the gospel of something to your family, that actually end up being really powerful.
But you got to be patient,you really do. And I've definitely
had to wait longer than I probablycould have if I would embody this in
the more like silent approach earlier,because I came out of the gate like
look at all the things that I'velearned everybody about health, about relationships,

(51:44):
about you know, mental health,and been like, Okay, Chase is
losing his mind in California, somehippie, but it's taken years to find
those little avenues. Yeah, totallyI think that's the hardest part is being
patient. You know, you youhope that all the seeds you plant like

(52:05):
grow into mighty tree someday. Andthat's kind of what I live by as
well, because like early on inmy I guess awakening you would call it
just starting to ask the bigger questionsearly on in my life, and like
just like simple things like why wascannabis illegal? And this was you know
before it is like it is nowwhere it's legal and almost half the states

(52:27):
now, and I was just like, how have they made this play illegal
for eighty years? Like it justdidn't make sense to me. Then you
know, that led me to questioningother things, and you know, people
look at you crazy when you startto you know, step out on a
limb like that and have a differentopinion when everyone else agrees to a certain

(52:47):
way of seeing things. I thinkwe all relate to that over the last
couple of years. But man,you know that's been a life lesson of
just like not expecting some one tobe a certain way because you've changed,
so you want them to suddenly speedup and catch up to you, or
like see things the way you doand being okay and meeting them where they're

(53:09):
at, you know, and yeah, you know, never underestimate the power
of planning seeds. But like yousaid, man, the best thing you
can do is just lead by example. Like they see that you're happy,
that you're thriving, that you're likefucking crushing it, Like like what the
hell am I doing wrong? Likewhat do I need to take from him

(53:30):
to like and to implement into mylife? And you know, so I
can have that too totally, Andyou've thought a lot about you know,
in my uh childhood, there's like, especially an Evangelical Christianity, you're really
pushed to be disciples and to witnessto others. And it was just so

(53:52):
repulsive to me to have like youthgroup kids and and um kids in my
school and all the way through collegebecause I went to a Presbyterian college,
have people just like the version ofthe people who are like holding signs on
the street that says like you're goingto burn in hell or or even just
be like do you know that Jesusis your best friend? Then you could
have a relationship with them anytime youwant. And it's like, oh my

(54:15):
God, like slow the f downif we if I would have, for
instance, spent a day with thatindividual. We don't talk about religion,
but maybe we shoot some hoops together, or we go on to hike together,
or we find something to bullshit aboutand we engage in some sort of
exchanged you know, quality time togetheror some shared interest. If he starts

(54:37):
to pose a question about Jesus tome, at the end of the day,
I'm going to be significantly more warmto being like, yeah, man,
let's talk about it. I maynot agree with you, but I'm
interested to see how this individual couldbe my friend. And that is like,
even thinking back on my own experiencewhere I've been repulsed by that type
of thing, it's important to like, you know, check myself before I

(54:58):
wreck myself as I'm now, youknow, seemingly finding some gems that I
would love to be able to shareto the people that I love. Yeah.
UM, I wanted to ask youguys each individually, like, um,
you know, living the life pathyou have together, and you know
where it's ben and where it's goneand where it is now. Um,

(55:21):
you know, what what was itlike? Um? You know, transitioning
through that getting back together, andI'm sure you had plenty of like are
you sure about this? Like friendslike trying to sabotage and you know,
I don't. I don't want youto be back in a relationship. Like
I was enjoying spending so much timewith you, Like we were having a

(55:42):
blast. Like uh, what wasthat like for you? And like what
were some of the biggest lessons learnedthroughout that time for each of you?
M great question. It's a greatquestion. Um. I would say the
overarching feeling of from when we firstwell when we first connected, but like
actually physically connected, like Chase kissedme before we were back together officially,

(56:07):
from that it was amazing. Wedidn't we obviously didn't go into the tiny
details of our of that story,but we were at a health conference and
we had met up about three monthsearlier just for coffee, like friendly coffee,
not anything romantic whatsoever, and itwas just a really beautiful time.
And then fast forward three months wewere at the same health conference in Anaheim,

(56:30):
California, and it was three daysand we basically knew each other were
going and we were like, ohyeah, let's meet up and say hi.
And we'd spent the entire time togetherbecause it just felt so good and
comfortable, and which is so weirdto say, like hanging out with your
ex husband ex wife, Like,how is that comfortable? But it is

(56:51):
because my soul was gravitating towards hissoul, and being in his presence felt
like I could take a deeper breathin some way that I could that I
could just be me and there wasno expectations of anything. That's how it
really felt. But from the firstpoint that Chase kissed me and told me

(57:13):
he loved me at that health conferenceand I set it back and it was
the best fucking kiss of my lifefrom that point on till today, I
mean, the feeling was just afull body hell, yes, oh my
God, like this it's a yes. And I had to be careful.

(57:37):
We both did, just because weonce we knew that, like there's something
here, we had to obviously becareful because we didn't know what the other
one was exactly thinking. We wantedto like tread lightly, so there was
definitely like caution, but I mysoul was screaming to me like this is
right, keep going, keep digginginto the us, and honestly like yeah,

(58:01):
there was noise from my family.Um, it was mostly positive For
my family. They just wanted tosee me happy, but there were you
know, some friends were kind ofcurious and like, are you sure about
this? But really, the thethe pause for me came when I thought

(58:23):
about having to face Chase's family again, because I really hurt Chase in our
marriage and his whole family knew it, and um, they had believed certain
things about me and who I wasand had this sort of mental construct of
who they thought this person was andclearly that wasn't her, and you know,

(58:45):
she heard our son and that wasa really challenging thing for me to
face. But it didn't even compareto this growing feeling inside of me knowing.
It was a knowing like that Ididn't intend on being with anyone else
and I told Chase that early on. And so there was definitely a mix

(59:07):
of feelings. Mostly it was allpositive from my friends and family. There
wasn't a lot there. It wasmostly just like the chatter of is this
like can we even do this?Is this allowed? But it was.
It was surreal. It was likehave you guys seen the movie cast Away

(59:29):
with Tom Hanks. It was sortof like that, yes, where it's
like this you know this person.We essentially treated each other like there was
a death we had to in orderto sort of like get through it and
to cope. And so to havethis like resurrection was really surreal. And
I will never forget any of thefeelings that I felt because it was they

(59:52):
were such new, novel feelings thatI would guess probably not a lot of
people get to experience in this worldunless they've had some sort of story like
this. But man, it wasbeautiful overall. It was more beautiful than
um anything that I had experienced inmy life thus far or up until that

(01:00:15):
point. And uh, it wasit was an absolute full body fuck yes
for me. Yeah, you know, two things come up for me,
you know, specifically with your questionof like you know, takeaways or like
big things that you're able to pullout from that. And I would say
first, and it's it's kind ofa little bit similar to what you were

(01:00:37):
articulating around the sound of your soulor intuition. And there was my brain
that would put all the could easilyyou know, fill a paper with all
the reasons why we shouldn't be backtogether and why this is a bad move
for me. And if I wasif this was my investment, you know,
if I have a history of workingin finance and accounting, and so

(01:00:58):
it'd be like this may this maybe risky. But the sound of my
soul and my intuition, which Ihad been nurturing that relationship for some time
at that point, was such athrobbing like yes, that it was too
much to deny. And so abig takeaway for me now is I remember

(01:01:20):
and I sit in that moment ofwhat it was like when I was contemplating
whether we should get back together ornot, and that pulse from my soul,
it's an energy that actually raises inyour body and it feels a little
bit anxious. It feels like anxiety, which is I think where people will
not listen to their intuition because oftentimesthat feeling comes with some level of disease,

(01:01:44):
almost like you're scaling up a rollercoaster about ready to drop. It's
scary, it's frightening. There isrisk, but on the other side of
it is like boom, it's allof those those chemicals that make you feel
amazing. And so I remember nowwhat that feels like, and if I
get that impulse, it's a similarfeeling too when I knew that I needed

(01:02:07):
to live in San Diego. SanDiego is home to me, and I
visited it when I was eleven yearsold, and I got this this pulse
from my body was like, Ihave to live here, and just I
came out of my mouth. Andwhen I told her I loved her before
we had gotten back together, whenwe kissed on this magical evening at the
health conference, it was the same. Just it was almost like a channeling

(01:02:29):
experience. And so a big takeawayfor me Number one is the familiarity with
that sound of my intuition and howpowerful that really is. And I have
literal data now that shows when Ilistened to it, when I lean into
that feeling, it's it's only loveand abundance on the other side of it.
And then the second thing would beand I probably talked about this in

(01:02:51):
our podcast with Mark Anthony Lord,but redefining forgiveness. That was a term
that was thrown around a lot aswe were getting back together, and even
in my process of dealing with ourdivorce, I was like, Oh,
you know, forgiveness, blah blahblah, it's it's got to be really
important and I really have thought throughwhat the mainstream world kind of thinks about

(01:03:15):
forgiveness and forgiveness in the dynamic ofrelationships specifically, it's really treated like a
score keeping game. And in relationships, we're constantly running this like subconscious like
okay, i've scored. You know, I've got ten points, but you've
only contributed five, so you technicallyowe me a little bit over here.
And then you have moments that arethat are you know, even more harmful,

(01:03:37):
such that the score gets like drasticallyout of whack. So you have
to engage in this sort of forgivenesstransaction that says, hey, well,
even the score award for now,okay, but you're still keeping score.
And I think that that in relationshipsat large, is not healthy to keep
scorekeeping. That will lead to transactionalrelationships, and we're looking for fluid,

(01:03:58):
dynamic, organic, expansive relationships.And relationships aren't a game to be won
or lost. They are an infinitegame of play. It is unbound play.
And to enter that realm of relationshipwhere it is play, where it
does not keep score, you actuallyremove the scoreboard altogether. And forgiveness is
that act of removing the scoreboards.It's saying, I'm realizing that this is

(01:04:23):
not a game to win or lose. Thus I'm stepping out and into the
game of play, which doesn't havea winner, it doesn't have a scoreboard.
And that process of moving out ofthat is forgiveness and reconciliation in this
new life, was an invitation tothe game that does not have an end
result. It's the dance. It'swhat Joseph Campbell calls Bliss. I was

(01:04:46):
just gonna speak up while you werespeaking there. I didn't want to interrupt,
but like the absence of forgiveness inour culture, I think cancel culture
really speaks to that, you know, and like none of these individuals were
like Okay, let's you know,get together with the wisest elders and like

(01:05:08):
talk about like how we can moveforward from this, and like how they
can integrate back into society and yeah, not to like say what they did
wasn't wrong, but like, howhow do we move forward from this rather
than just like expecting them to leavesociety like throwing them away like trash.
Like it's such a thing to bringup about, like what I'd like to

(01:05:34):
see change in the world and wherewe're heading because I think the absence of
forgiveness speaks to where we're at,you know, and how just in the
collective, how it's such a youknow, triggering thing, like absolutely comes
down to picking sides at that point, you know, and absolutely And on

(01:05:56):
the other side of forgiveness is youknow, it's transcend then love. And
I'm not saying it's just easy togo through the forgiveness process. And there's
a healthy level of accountability, especiallyin relationships that should you have to work
through challenges in a relationship and maybeget to the point where forgiveness is on

(01:06:16):
the table. There is a reallyhealthy level of boundary setting, and there's
a healthy level of accountability and selfresponsibility. And so I definitely can see
maybe the argument for like, youcan't just like blankt forgive everybody, But
when the when the conditions are suchthat it does warrant this this you know,

(01:06:38):
spiritual transcendent act of forgiveness. Manon the other side of that,
I mean, this is the stumblingblock that turns to the stepping stone of
your life's evolutionary process. Completely agree, forgiveness is a superpower. Yeah,
yeah, I mean so much totake from you guys. I mean,

(01:07:00):
you know, we've we've been goingthrough a lot on a personal level and
dealt with issues in the past,but you know, just riding those waters
and like finding that safe space whereyou can really open up to each other
and be vulnerable. I feel youguys do that on every show you put
out, and it's really an honorto get to know you guys more and

(01:07:24):
have you on my show and uh, you know, get to spend some
time with you. Um, I'vereally appreciated this conversation and uh, yeah,
I just wanted to ask you.I'm sure Jordan might have one last
question, but I wanted to ask, if you know, for those struggling
out there. I know you guyscommonly give like the preface like you guys

(01:07:45):
aren't relationship coaches or life coaches,but um, for having been there and
been through the ups and downs ofa relationship and powering through and like growing
stronger with time, what advice wouldyou give of or like some life lessons
or like these are the things thatwe've maybe adjusted or changed up this second

(01:08:09):
go around to write the ship andget things right for those who might be
in a place or at a crossroadsin their relationships. Yeah, I can
start if you want. I mean, there's so many things obviously that we've
learned from part one of our youknow, that's what we call our marriage
part one versus part two, andit's it feels like a completely different relationship.

(01:08:32):
Honestly, I would say, youknow, the first thing that popped
into my head, I'll just gowith that. Something that's really practical for
someone, For anyone listening who maybehaving relationship issues, or maybe you're starting
to date again and you want tomake sure that you are laying a healthy
foundation for a sort of more consciousrelationship, I would say, no matter

(01:08:57):
who you are with, no matterhow conscious the relationship is or will be,
you will always, always, alwayshave moments of charge where there is
either a disagreement, there's trust lost, there's a moment of pride or ego
where you feel like, man,you really didn't care about me, You
really don't care about me in thismoment. It's going to come up.

(01:09:21):
Charged moments still come up for Chaseand I and it's how we work through
them that you get to, youknow, really see the fruits of growth
in your relationship. And so onepractical thing that somebody can do is when
you feel triggered by your partner whenthey do something or they say something that

(01:09:45):
feels really hurtful, or maybe youguys struggle with you know, we tend
to have these patterns in relationship whereoh, this this same thing keeps coming
up in the relationship. Or maybeit's about money, or maybe it's about
kids, maybe it's about housework,whatever it is, when you're feeling triggered,
instead of speaking what you want tosay, you know in that moment,

(01:10:10):
or instead of you know, throwingan insult at them or you know,
hurting them back because they hurt you. Right, I get to do
this because you hurt me. First. You can literally stop, take up
breath, breathe six belly breaths sixspecifically, because that's the amount of time
that it takes to like center yourparasympathetic you know, get back into a

(01:10:35):
parasympathetic state where you're not in reactionmode. So stop and ask yourself,
why is this thing triggering for me? Why what is coming up in me?
What is the actual feeling that I'mfeeling? Why am I feeling this
way about this particular thing. I'mjust going to give a dumb example to

(01:10:57):
make a point here. Say it'sthe woman and she is so tired of
picking up her husband's dirty, sweatygym clothes on the floor when there's a
hamper right next to it, andto her it seems like absolute fucking madness
that you can't put that clothes.These are the things that people fight about,
right like these It's been real.And so in that moment, she

(01:11:20):
is triggered and she's like, motherfucker, I've told you ten thousand times.
And at this point she probably wantsto yell or be like why didn't you
do this? She can stop,take a few breaths and ask herself,
why is this actually triggering for me? Is this actually important? And maybe

(01:11:42):
to her it is, so shecan, you know, evaluate, is
this actually important? Did he justload the dishwasher wrong? Is that really
important? Probably not, But ifthe thing is important to you, you
can you can identify the thing behindthe thing. So we talk about this
a lot on the podcast, askingyourself, why is this so triggering for

(01:12:03):
me? Maybe for her in theexample that I gave, maybe she feels
alone and stressed, overly, stressedwith how much she has to do for
the house, for the kids,and she doesn't feel like she has a
partner. She feels like she hasa kid, another kid that she has
to take care of. She feelslike maybe that she has to mother him
more than she wants to, andthat doesn't feel good, probably for most

(01:12:24):
women out there. So she canidentify that within herself before going to her
partner. When you do that,you are able to speak from your experience
rather than emotion or trigger or chargelike you didn't do this again? Why
don't you listen to me? Whydon't you think about me? It's more
of a hey, can I sharesomething important with you? I'm feeling overly

(01:12:48):
stressed because of how much has toget done around the house, and I'm
feeling that, you know, whenI, you know, have to pick
up your clothes or do these differentthings, I feel really alone and it
makes me feel sad and it makesme feel like I have to step up
and you know, step into amother role, and that is the opposite

(01:13:09):
of what I want to be foryou. Could we come to some sort
of agreement or could we work togetherto figure out a good plan where we
can you know, take ownership togetherin this partnership of taking care of things
that is so much more digestible forsomeone to really listen to and respond well
to, rather than the finger pointing, the blaming, shaming, judgment and

(01:13:31):
name name drop, not name dropping, but name calling. And so that
would be my thing is stop breathe, Ask yourself why it's a trigger.
Ask yourself, what is the thingbehind the thing? What is actually making
me sad or angry? Right now? It's not the clothes on the floor.
It's the fact that you feel likeyou're his mother. Take that to

(01:13:54):
your partner and share that experience withthem, and you will likely find a
more present and engaged partner when theycan actually digest what it is that you're
saying. That's definitely. It feltdefinitely just hearing you speak it in the
way that you were, my bodyreacted differently. It's an invitation, right,

(01:14:15):
It's an invitation for help rather thana demonizing Yeah right, yeah,
no, that's that's spot on,I think I would say, And there's
a ton here, But what's comingup for me is if you're in if
you're in a relationship challenge and you'rejust looking for progress, and let's say

(01:14:36):
you're in a relationship, but thiscould work also if you're single. I
tend to look at this a lotlike health and wellness, and so let's
say you're in health and wellness challengeand want to exercise better, want to
eat better. I'm a proponent ofintuitive eating, intuitive exercise habits. I

(01:14:56):
think that we should be able tonot have to get stuck in dogmatic diets
or exercise protocols in order to experiencehealth. So the idea is to intuitively
have this relationship with health through yourmovement and you're eating patterns. But you
can't get there without structure. Andwhat that usually looks like is if you
don't have any clue, you're notgoing to just walk out one day like

(01:15:18):
all right, I'm going to intuitivelyeat and move my body and then I'll
get healthy. What you do isyou likely hire maybe a coach, you
read a few books, you embodya diet protocol and a workout program,
and you're tracking your calories and yourfood and your reps and the exercises that
you're doing, and slowly but surelyyou start to develop this relationship with health

(01:15:43):
through the structure. I think thatthose the benefits of the structure plateau,
and I do think that many shouldtry to move outside of those structures and
rather check in with their body.Hey, how's my heart rate this morning?
Do I have the capacity to gofor a long run or not?
Hey? Am I am I actuallyfull? How's my digestion? How's my
sex life? And then you startintuitively making decisions with food and how you

(01:16:06):
move your body to reach health.But that's only after developing this relationship through
the structure. All right, Sonow let's go back to relationships. If
you feel I tend to feel likeyou should be able to intuitively have a
relationship with your significant other, andthat using a coach you know, for

(01:16:26):
the rest of your life may notbe necessary. Ideally you don't have to
write, but to get kind ofyour feet off the ground a little bit,
start building relationship structure into your life, and even if your partner's not
ready for it, you can startyourself. And there's a host of fantastic

(01:16:46):
books like for men. I amconstantly telling men to read Way of the
Superior Man by David data King WarriorMagician Lover, which goes through the primary
mascule and archetypes, John Winlin's fromthe Core No More Mister Nice Guy,
and you can start to read throughthese resources, you can listen to podcasts.

(01:17:12):
We live in this age of justinfinite information, and I would specifically
look for conscious relationship related work andbegin to start putting these protocols and practices
into your life. For men,but for women as well. There's some
really great relationship oriented meditations and someexercises and protocols that you can quite literally

(01:17:33):
go through to nurture your own masculineor feminine. You can study the masculine
and the feminine, and even thoughyou can I think transcend to that and
get to this point where you kindof interplay with your partner about what masculine
and feminine roles you are are in. I think the structure for a while
is really important, and so ifyou are a dominant masculine energy, you
can work on embodying that further,or a dominant feminine work on embodying that

(01:17:57):
further, getting getting really familiar withthose types. I had no idea that
the masculine energy embodied gentleness and itcan. I had no idea it embodied
intellect. All I thought was thatit was the kings and the warriors out
there. But there's these these loversand these magicians and these alchemists that are
all within the masculine and so forme, I see so much value in

(01:18:20):
putting the structure and the practical lessonsinto your life and working through them so
that you can potentially reach this thisrealm of intuitive relationship dynamics. Ideally,
when you decide to start implementing someof these you know some of these learnings

(01:18:41):
and some of these structures, andyou're reading books and maybe you're taking a
course or you're interested in a relationshipscoach. Ideally, you present that to
your partner with the offer and thesethe communication that it would be important to
you if they partook and if theyjoined. Hey, I'm ready to get

(01:19:02):
better at relationships, and here's whatI'm going to do, higre coach.
I'm going to read some books andI'm really really fascinated in just becoming a
better person in this relationship. Itwould be incredible and mean a ton to
me if you were similarly interested.Don't have to take the same journey,
but here's some of the things thatI'm doing. If anything's coming up for

(01:19:24):
you, I would love to sharein this experience with you. Something that
simple and unattached to the response,I'm sure that if this is the person
that loves you, if this isyour person, that even if they don't
enroll in this initially, when theystart seeing the fruits of the work that
you're putting in, they will wantto elevate with you. They will want

(01:19:47):
to know what you are a partof. And if they're not, that's
a good I mean, that's stilla good sign. That it's an indicative
sign that they may not have thefervor for experiencing life at a higher vibration,
experiencing the relationship from a more evolvedstate. It's still good feedback.
It's still good feedback, and sokind of my long answer is to say,

(01:20:12):
I would look at relationship challenge andthe interest for growing in your relationship
to a really similar approach as tohow I would look at someone who's interested
in getting closer to health. Itmay need to start with like protocols and
structure and education and learning and beingokay with like, Okay, it's going

(01:20:33):
to be clunky for a minute,We're going to set up this little date
night or this this check in.We have a check in tool that we've
used and we share about a lot. It might feel weird, but we
just got to go through the motionsfor a minute. We got to get
educated. This. This feels likeyou know, syllabus day in school.

(01:20:53):
Yeah, exactly. And eventually youyou keep what sticks and you you know,
foliate what doesn't and you can geta little bit closer to the dance
if you will. But just likedancing, you've got to learn the actual
you know, step steps and thetechnique for a minute before you can intuitively
embody it right, come to seeit better myself. Thank you so much

(01:21:17):
for coming on today, guys.I really appreciate just your presence here today
and the flexibility. And yeah,I can't say enough about you guys.
I would love to have you backanytime. I'd love to do some roundtables
in the future on relationships and men'scircles, Chase, love to have you

(01:21:38):
in those. Yeah, just anhonor to sit down and speak with you.
I just wanted to give you amoment to plug all your links for
the listeners and any big announcements yougot coming out feel free. Uh yeah,
So our website is the medicine dotcom and medicine is spelled without an

(01:22:00):
E on the end. It's adifferent type of medicine. And our podcast
is the Medicine Podcast, same spelling, and we drop episodes every week.
We alternate between episodes with just Chaseand I talking to each other, and
then we also have all different typesof amazing, incredible guests and we talk.

(01:22:23):
We talk about it all. Wetalk about holistic health, spirituality,
conscious relationships, anything that is lightingus up or we're interested in really and
that we think could be valuable forother people like us. So if you
enjoyed this conversation, these are thetypes of conversations that we have on the
medicine as well. And then onInstagram, my handle is Mimi Underscore the

(01:22:47):
Medicine and that's oh the Medicine dotcom is also where we have our products,
our Mushy Love Elixir and our ImmuneIntel HCC. If anyone is listening
and they have questions about chronic illness, chronic disease and you're wondering if HCC
could help, my DM door isalways open and I answer them all myself.

(01:23:11):
So yeah, I just want toput that invitation out there. Yeah,
and I'm on Instagram as well.My handle is the Underscore Chase and
Underscore one, or you can searchChase Rami. And then the other thing
that we've been doing recently out ofyou know, the last seven or eight
years that we've been in the holistichealth space, we've spent you know,
an ungodly amount of money on supplementsand cool products and totally worth it.

(01:23:33):
But we've started to give away afree product from one of the brands that
sponsor our show or our own productsonce a week, and so we're giving
away a free product every week foranybody who signs up to what's called the
Medicine Drop, which is an emailthat goes out every week. It's got
a bunch of you know, quotesand synopsis of the episodes that we're dropping
things that we're interested in. We'llthrow a recipe in there, or a

(01:23:56):
workout or something like that. Andthen at the end of every newsletter,
there's a chance to submit your nameand address to get a free product of
the week. And so that's somethingwe've been doing lately that I think we'll
continue, and you know, thankyou to our our sponsors and partners that
we have with the show, becausethey're totally down to send a free product
to one of the one of thewinners, so you can definitely check that
out as well. But yeah,and that's on our website. So if

(01:24:16):
you go to the Medicine dot comum, you'll it'll they'll you'll get a
pop up basically and says like,hey, join the Medicine drop um.
And that's that's what that They're onlyproducts, they're only products that we we
use and advocate for in addition toour own. But yeah, and you
guys, this was just a reallybeautiful, real conversation and I'm just,
uh, I'm grateful for both ofyou and the work that you've put in

(01:24:41):
and are putting in, and thejust thirst you have to learn and grow
and embody and it's just felt throughthis you know zoom screen it is likewise,
guys, so happy to conversate withyou and look forward to many more
in the future and expanding the tribeand community. Yeah, I just want
to thank you all for listening outthere. I hope you gained something from

(01:25:03):
this conversation. I found a momentof presence throughout it. I send you
all peace and love and have abeautiful rest of the week. Thanks for listening.

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#177 - Conscious Relationships & Medicinal Mushrooms w/ Chase & Mimi

Episode Transcript

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#177 - Conscious Relationships & Medicinal Mushrooms w/ Chase & Mimi