AAH #741 - How Did Slate Keep Everything So Secret?

TOPIC: Forvia PANEL: Chad Durkee, FORVIA; Lindsay Brooke, Freelance; Gary Vasilash, shinymetalboxes.net; John McElroy, Autoline.tv

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Auto Line After Hours. It is brought to you by
Bridgestone Tires, Solutions for Your Journey and by Borg Warner.
The automotive industry continues to evolve, and so do the
opportunities to define it. Borg Warner, one of the world's
most admired companies, gets partners where they need to go.
Let's do something big together.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
All right, thanks everybody for having joined us here on
Autolne after Hours. Got some interesting show here. Let's tell
the audience who's who we got.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Why don't you start Gary?

Speaker 4 (00:34):
All right, so we have Chad Durky. Now you've got
like one of the world's longest titles, and so watch
the title I'm getting there, Technology Scouting and Innovation Fueling
Global Manager.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Is that right?

Speaker 5 (00:50):
It's awful?

Speaker 6 (00:50):
Does it fit on a cart barely?

Speaker 7 (00:52):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (00:53):
So he's with four VIA.

Speaker 4 (00:55):
So I want to welcome you and we have our
old friend Lindsay Brook back on the show.

Speaker 7 (00:59):
Thanks for having us.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yeah, good to have you.

Speaker 6 (01:01):
Good to see.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
So what was that Technology Schoology, Scouting and Innovation Fueling
Global Manager?

Speaker 3 (01:08):
Okay, so yeah, what do you do? What are you
scouting these things?

Speaker 5 (01:11):
So I live kind of in the future space the
future world, so to speak. I'm not dealing with a
lot of the day to day operations, current programs. I'm
looking into the future. Really, the start of innovation starts
with a lot of my responsibilities. So technology scouting, just
as it sounds, going out around the globe, finding the

(01:32):
latest technology where it fits into our automotive seating products.
And then fueling has nothing to do with fuel. It
actually has to do with starting the process of innovation,
so filling the pipeline of innovation. So as innovation starts
at the very beginning, in its earliest phase, hopefully from
a lot of the technologies I'm scouting, fills that pipeline,

(01:53):
and that's what we call fueling.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Okay, so what are you most excited about?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
What do you come back and say, you guys, you
got to look at this.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
What have you seen?

Speaker 5 (02:00):
So you know a lot of things that I think
we're going to talk about today, Software defined vehicles and
software as a product. I really see as the future.
Automation is a huge topic right now. AI, generative AI
obviously a very big topic. So, yeah, a lot lots
of exciting technologies, all.

Speaker 4 (02:20):
Right, Chad, let's frame this so for your company, for vio.
What is it that the company does and why.

Speaker 6 (02:28):
Is some of this technology applicable to it?

Speaker 5 (02:31):
So we have multiple divisions within four VIA. We have
our Interiors division does armress, door panels, ips, things like that.
We have our Electronics division. We have our Hella division
focused on lighting and electronics, and we have our Seating division.
And then we have our Clean Mobility division formerly our
exhaust division, now looking at clean mobility solutions. So technology

(02:55):
plays a key part in all this. I believe that
innovation really starts with technology. Technology is the birthplace for
innovation and feeds and fuels so to speak, innovation.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
So what do you do?

Speaker 2 (03:07):
You look around the world for interesting places to go,
visit companies or how does it work?

Speaker 5 (03:13):
Yeah, so a lot of it involves going to trade shows,
going to conferences, going to events. You know, innovation really
it starts with technology. It also starts with a pain
point that you're trying to address. So there's something in
your vehicle, specifically with me in seats that is a
pain point. It's it's something that's a pain point for
our industry. It's a pain point for the consumer, the

(03:34):
end user. And we try to look for technologies and
innovation and solutions that can fill those pain points, and
we prioritize things every year we have we have major
topics that were looking for because you can't you can't
scout everything, you can't look for everything, it's so.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Much out there.

Speaker 5 (03:48):
So we focus on the key topics and try and
figure out how to find technologies to fill those topics.

Speaker 4 (03:54):
So are these technologies process meaning making the product or
is it product you know you're looking for a new
foam or a new material.

Speaker 5 (04:03):
Or it's really both, really both. I mean, there's there's
definitely a process side, as I was referring to with
automation a minute ago, and then there's a product side
of course, sustainability, like you're saying with new foam, different technologies,
as as the world evolves, as like software defined vehicles evolves,
there's new technologies that are needed to allow these these

(04:25):
new technologies to blossom immature in our industry.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
We had one of your competitors on the show months
ago and was asking them, you know, what are you
hearing from the automakers, what do they want from you?

Speaker 3 (04:37):
And he said one of the key things was designing
labor out of making seats.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Is that what you're hearing too. Wait when you mentioned automation,
I'm making the connection that way.

Speaker 5 (04:49):
Yeah, you know, automation is really about optimizing our process,
so looking at building in optimizations for quality checks for example,
using machine vision and things like that. Wrinkles in seats
are a big problem, and they're very hard to detect.
Somebody standing looking at seats for hours upound hours every day.

(05:11):
It's a very tedious job just the process of building
a seat. It's a very manual process, a very tedious job,
and so automation can help in a lot of ways,
but there's a lot of challenges with it, especially for seating.
I think that are unique. You know, in seats, there's
a wide variety of materials. Seats have of course steel,

(05:32):
they have plastic, but they have polyurethane foams, whatever the
trim cover on the outside of the seat is, whether
it's vinyl, cloth, leather, all these materials have to be
handled by some type of automated system. So if it's
a robot, you need a specific robot gripper that can
handle these different these different materials, different types of parts,
and it starts to get really complicated really quick. A

(05:55):
gripper that's going to grab a metal part or a
plastic part. Doesn't work for a piece of pune because
of home is slippery, it's oily. It doesn't work for
a trim cover that's an aesthetic part. You can't grip
and damage the part. So we need unique solutions, and
that's where technology scouting comes in to find those solutions,
find those technologies and figure out how to apply them

(06:17):
for our applications.

Speaker 7 (06:18):
Chat I think among the three of us combined, we've
probably written four dozen stories on how to make seats lighter,
make the seat unit lighter, and how to make it
less complex. And there are two pain points that vehicle
development people have always said to me, you know, when
they're looking at the overall mass of the vehicle, complexity

(06:39):
and cost of the vehicle is how do you whittle
that down into something that's like we've tried to write about,
it's lighter, just as strong me, it's all FMVSS and
is less expensive. And since you're the innovation guy, how
often does this get kicked around? Because I know all
the OEMs are asking these questions.

Speaker 5 (07:00):
Yeah, almost constantly. It's this one of the you know,
cost is such a key driver and with cost comes
reducing complexity. Seats today are and they've been for years,
just layer upon layer upon layer. You've got your trim layer,
your foam layer, you've got a ventilation layer, you've got.

Speaker 6 (07:18):
A heater mat.

Speaker 5 (07:19):
I mean, if you cut in a cross section of
a seat, there's maybe ten twelve layers to a seat.

Speaker 7 (07:24):
Eight way, lumbar eight way, you know, and they keep
getting more.

Speaker 5 (07:28):
Complex, yes, and so one of the things that we're
trying to do in innovation is figure out how to
reduce that complexity, how to delayer a seat, so to speak.
And I think one of the best ways to approach that,
even though it's a very immature technology still growing, is
additive manufacturing, and I really believe additive manufacturing is the
future for that, the ability to take layers and print

(07:52):
them together. You know, there's additive manufacturing printers out there,
if you will, that can print multiple different materials. So
for the first time ever, you can print a part
with multiple types of plastics, with metal and plastic together.
And the vision, the dream, the future is that you
take a part off of a printer and it's not

(08:12):
just a single part, it's not a one to one
replacement of one part to the next. But it's actually
a combination of parts, it's a sub assembly of parts,
and then that starts to address some of the things
that you're talking about. Labor is reduced because you're printing
parts together. Your CO two footprint is reduced because you're
not shipping all these individual parts and you're printing them
all as one. So you have a sustainability benefit, you

(08:35):
have a packaging benefit. So not to mention, I think
the biggest benefit to EDIT in manufacturing is the reduction
in tooling. If you're printing a part that's going to
be the final part that goes in the seat, you
literally take the part off the printer, you put it
in the seat. If you want to make an engineering change.
I started in this industry twenty years ago and I
was a seat frame engineer and we'd make a change

(08:58):
to a stamping, a metal stamping. I mean just something minor,
like a whole change.

Speaker 6 (09:02):
Moving a hole.

Speaker 5 (09:03):
Adding a hole. You have to build a bank of parts,
You have to then take down the tool, you have
to add the punch in order to add the hole.
You have to run a trial like It would take weeks,
if not months to make a very something that should
be really really simple. And with additive manufacturing, all that
goes well, you can make a change in seconds and

(09:23):
there's no obsolete parts and there's no tooling costs, so
the benefits are are huge. The one major hurdle to overcome.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
Is the SI cycle time.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
But if they're doing multiple pieces, that's got to help
in terms of the cycle time.

Speaker 5 (09:38):
That's how we're going to get there. That that's how
additive manufacturing is going to become competitive, I strongly believe
is through combining.

Speaker 6 (09:44):
So it's going to happen.

Speaker 4 (09:45):
I mean, I've been writting about additive for like longer
than Lindsay's been sitting there, and it's.

Speaker 6 (09:51):
It's always been.

Speaker 7 (09:54):
Next year, right, next year, next year, and the.

Speaker 6 (09:56):
Work envelope is also yes.

Speaker 5 (09:59):
So so Led you brought that up. So I was
just a couple weeks ago at a trade show here
in Detroit that was all about additive manufacturing, and they're
making advancements in those areas. It used to be that
you could only print on a planar surface, a two
D surface. You could print the parts, then you take
the parts off the two D surface, so you could

(10:19):
print as many parts as you could fit on that
planar surface. Now they're printing in three D. They're printing
parts on top of parts, and they're using binder or
filler materials so that you can maximize the print space.
So you're no longer limited to the two D planar surface,
but you're now in three D and by doing that
now you greatly maximize the number of parts you can print.

(10:40):
There's also a lot of advancements being done, as I mentioned,
in different materials. I saw multiple vendors that are showcasing
different materials that they can print at the same time.
So you have a single printer with multiple heads on it.
They can print multiple materials, mix them together. The binder
material itself that keeps the parts together until they're printed.

(11:01):
It used to be you had to put that in
a tank or a vat, or you had heat it.
It was a very drawn out process. Now they're showing
you can rinse it off in a sink and you
could rinse the binding material. So it's making progress. It's
every year I go to that show and I see
we're a little bit further, a little bit further, So
I still think it's some years out to where it's
mass production, but to my point earlier, I think it's

(11:22):
all about combining those layers together. Combining those parts together
is going to get us there and build that value.
Statement to tip of scales.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
Is is there anything to like making a different design
for a seat this with this process? I mean, I
think about how the office furniture business was revolutionized with
the air on chair. You know, suddenly springs and cushions
and so on all went away in a material design

(11:51):
changed that, right.

Speaker 6 (11:52):
Yeah, car seats look like car seats.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
They may be more complicated than they work ten years ago,
but essentially look at a ten year old seat in
the current seat.

Speaker 6 (12:03):
When's that going to change?

Speaker 5 (12:04):
Yeah, So, I mean it absolutely needs to change to
usher in that future. And that goes not only for
additive manufacturing. I was just talking with somebody the other
day about automation.

Speaker 6 (12:16):
We need to.

Speaker 5 (12:16):
Design for automation. Seats are designed to be manually assembled.
If we can design them to be automatic, you know,
automated assembly, that's going to usher in the future much faster.
And the same thing for additive manufacturing, the same thing
for almost every new technology. We have to rethink. You know,
we've been doing things a certain way. We have to
rethink how we do them. With additive manufacturing, I think

(12:37):
for so long it's been about design. Optimization has been
about one part out, one part in. That's kind of
like the normal process for optimizing design, and I think
we need to start thinking about multiple parts out, one
part in, because that part is additively manufactured.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
You know.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
One of the best visions I've talked about this on
the show before that I saw was at a maker
fair and high school that had a terrific project. They
had like those ping pong table with these very simple
three D printers printing parts to make more three D printers,
which were breaking parts to make more three D printers.
Why don't you just print a whole bunch more three
D machines and make seats that way.

Speaker 5 (13:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the other breakthrough that's
needed for additive manufacturing is the solution isn't just buy
more printers, you know, just have a print farm of printers.
That's that's kind of the industry answer right now, how
do we make one hundred thousand parts? Well, you buy
more printers, and that doesn't really solve the problem because
that increases the investment that you're trying to avoid tooling

(13:39):
in the first place. So I think it lies in
the technology and things like I was talking about, like
printing and layers, printing multiple parts together technology for the
binder materials that allows you to maximize the print output
per minute per second to get closer to be competitive
with ejection holding stamping our traditional processes.

Speaker 7 (14:02):
What's the level of interest from your customers on this
technology bringing it faster and faster.

Speaker 5 (14:10):
I think in general they're interested if it saves them money,
if it's if it's going to be more efficient, if
it's and it's going to perform the same. As long
as it's going to meet their specifications.

Speaker 7 (14:22):
And you can deliver it at lower cost.

Speaker 5 (14:23):
Yeah, then they're interested. I mean, no surprise, that's that's
kind of the name of the game, right.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
So, Chad, are you finding any product technologies that maybe
from a different industry that you think would be applicable
to the auto industry?

Speaker 5 (14:40):
So I can't really get into specifics due to confidential
agreements and things like that, So I'd love to tell
you all about them, but I can hear I can
tell anyone.

Speaker 8 (14:50):
I can tell you.

Speaker 5 (14:51):
We find a lot of technologies in the betting industry betting. Yes,
like mattress industry, things like that. Mattresses and beds are
soft and flexible like a seat, And there's a lot
of technology going on in the bedding industry with monitoring
the person sleeping and their comfort level and their thermal
comfort and things like that. So a lot of technology

(15:13):
passes over from that. Over the years, we've found that
to be the case. But again I can't really get
into specific sorry, fascinating.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
You know, there's an aspect of the tariffs to all
this because we don't import seats, right, seats are not
conducive to shipping long distance?

Speaker 8 (15:31):
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (15:32):
I mean?

Speaker 3 (15:33):
Or do we import seats?

Speaker 5 (15:34):
So the complete seat that ships and goes into the
vehicle is assembled in a just in time plant, a
JIT plant that's within a short window, a twenty to
thirty minute window from where the vehicle is being assembled.
So the complete seat itself, yes, is always is wherever
the vehicle's being built, so it's dictated by the vehicle.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
But components do come in to assemble.

Speaker 5 (15:56):
The seats, yes, yeah, so specifically on Terra you know,
our company is monitoring them. We have action plans in
place to figure out how to mitigate the risk. I'm
really focused on the technical side, so I don't get
specifically into a lot of the business that goes on
with that.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Now, what I was just wondering if if you see
technologies out there that are like, hey, here's how we
can bring this stuff into the US and still do
it from a cost effective standpoint.

Speaker 5 (16:23):
Well, I think one of the interesting things that our
industry has been trending in even before tariffs, where this
hot buzzword they are today is the software defined vehicle space,
and I think that I know that our industry wants
to pivot towards that. And if you're not familiar with that,
what that means is the dream is you have hardware

(16:44):
agnostic components in a vehicle, so you have basically the
same vehicle and software defines the different trim levels, the
different features. So it's all driven through software, which is
a huge challenge for us at four VA because we're
traditionally a hardware company, especially in seating, it's almost all hardware,
and so how do you redefine our products to be

(17:06):
defined by software? And so we're looking at things like
a lumbar system, for example, could you go from a
two way lumbar to a four way lumbar by purely
updating the software. Could you add a massage sequence, a
new a new pattern by just updating the software. So
we look for opportunities where the hardware can remain the

(17:27):
same and we can create value and new products or
new feature sets purely through software.

Speaker 4 (17:33):
So to explain that, so you'd build all the seats
the same, and if somebody bought the entry level vehicle,
it may not have the level of lumbar support. And
then you buy a higher trim vehicle and someone puts
in the code and then that that's the vision for it.

Speaker 5 (17:53):
It's it's more complicated than that because if you have
a manual seat in a power seat, you can't make
a manual seat power so you know, so there's and
that's some of the challenges that I'm talking about that
we face. But in general your description is right. You
have a base level, you have a mid level, you
have a premium level. They all have the same hardware
and they're defined by their software.

Speaker 7 (18:10):
Chat is any of that in two seats? That really
surprised me when I looked on your website. I think
new products Safe forty five and safe sixty. That refers
to the seatback angle capability of the seat, which in
my mind is kind of you know, it's almost like
laying down driving the vehicle. But we're able to achieve

(18:30):
those two product features through that.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
Yeah, so that the Safe forty five and Safe sixty
refer to your right the back angle and the position
really of the belt going across your chest, and we
want to be in a safe position, so that so
that you remain safe at any time in the vehicle.
That was a product that there was just unveiled at
our Shanghai show in our booth, and you know, it's

(18:56):
really about safety and comfort. You want to be reclined
in the seat, you want to be in a comfortable position,
but you also have to remain safe of course, and
so it's about combining really two key features, safety and
comfort together in a single product.

Speaker 7 (19:12):
Was it mostly a mechanical solution or was there software
involved in that?

Speaker 5 (19:16):
It's that's more hardware driven than software. There's a little
bit of software involved in the position of the occupant,
and it relies on hardware sensors in the seat, but
there's it's software driven, but it's also relies very heavily
on hardware as well.

Speaker 7 (19:34):
Any particular markets that want a sixty degree seat reclining angle,
you know, I'm sure there are.

Speaker 5 (19:41):
I haven't been involved specifically with the market studies behind
those products, but I'm sure there are.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
Chad, Interesting, is there a greater concentration on seating as
auto companies roll out more autonomy, which means that the
people are going to be in the cabin just sort
of maybe a sixty agree? I mean, I mean, is
that become something that you know, you're charged with finding
more about.

Speaker 5 (20:07):
Yeah, it certainly is. You know, it's interesting we always
say about seats, they're the one component in the vehicle
that you're you're always in contact with, You're always touching,
I mean a steering wheel. You are until you're in
autonomous mode, and then you're not.

Speaker 8 (20:21):
And so.

Speaker 5 (20:23):
The big challenge is it goes with the safe forty
five and safe sixty is keeping a person safe in
all of these different positions. So as you're in a
reclined position, there's swiveling seats. They'd like to be would
like to have seats swivel and do different things, and
so all of these different features and functionality we have
to take into account. Safety and so features and technology

(20:46):
that allow the occupant to remain safe in those different
positions is of high interest.

Speaker 7 (20:52):
And robotaxis and robocabs have driven some of that design.

Speaker 6 (20:55):
Is that correct?

Speaker 5 (20:57):
Yes, yes, I'm sure they have. Just the mobility as
a service industry in general.

Speaker 7 (21:02):
Turn around and talk to people while the vehicle is moving.

Speaker 5 (21:05):
Yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's a whole side
of that, with the autonomy side and and the you know,
the ad s systems and things of that nature that
that are outside of my my particular area of expertise,
but certainly a big part of it at the end
of the day comes back to what you're going to
do while the vehicle is in motion, and we have
to remain safe while you're doing those different things.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
As as you're looking around for this technology, are you
finding particular areas geographies? I mean that seem to be
more beneficial in terms of having these technologies that you
may find applicable to your product.

Speaker 5 (21:48):
So you're being like geographically Europe, Asia, US, The US
is definitely in North America. Let's say, US and Canada
together are definitely the leader worldwide where I find the
most technologies. But there's a lot of technology development in Europe,
and there's a lot going on in China as well

(22:09):
as some you guys can speak to that just got
back from China. There's a lot of advancements. But I
would say the number one area is North America, specifically
US and Canada.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
I'm interested in what you're saying of swivel seats, you know,
I want to say it was either Pontiac or Oldsmobile.
If I remember right in the nineteen sixties, had at
least the driver's seed that would pivot out so it
would just you know, swivel a bit to make it
easier to get in and out of the car. And
I would just think that today with the H point,

(22:43):
you know, the seat cushion higher, especially in trucks and
SUVs and things like that, a sweet a seat that
would swivel would just be I would think a feature
that customers would go for.

Speaker 5 (22:55):
They absolutely would. The biggest challenge is validating having that
swim well, even if it's only swivels when the vehicle's
in park, having that kinematic and that motion to allow
it to swivel outboard to welcome the occupant, or swivel
inboard to talk to your passenger or other passengers in
the vehicle. Allowing for that kinematic and that motion requires
additional validation and new challenges. It can be done, but

(23:19):
there's a lot of cost involved with it that at
the end of the day at all.

Speaker 6 (23:22):
So does that go to the FMVSS? Did I say
that right? You were talking about earlier. So you have
to prove that this thing isn't going to go.

Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, and you have to you have to prove in
all those different positions. So if you offer an outboard swivel,
you have to even though it doesn't go in that
position when the vehicles in motion, if it's capable of
making that movement, you have to make sure that it's safe.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
So, you know, you're talking about about processes, and so
I'm thinking about Okay, seats have been welded traditionally with
spot welding, and I'm thinking, gee, if you had a
laser welder, you might really be able to get that
thing anchored to the floor in a good way.

Speaker 6 (24:01):
I mean, you guys look at things like that.

Speaker 5 (24:04):
We are not specifically laser welding the seat to the floor,
but we are looking at different attachment schemes for the
seat to the floor. When you think about EVS especially,
you know years ago, before the days of EVS, there
was nothing under the floor, so it's just wide open space,
so you could put holes and bolt seats down wherever

(24:25):
you want it. Now you have battery packs, and now
you have to position those holes around battery packs in
the floor, and so how do you manage that and
what's the best attachment scheme to allow for optimal battery
placement and also safe attachment of the seat to the floor.
So there are things we're looking at there.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Or you do a Tesla said does and you make
the top of the battery pack the floor and have
the seats and the console and the carpeting all go
up as one.

Speaker 7 (24:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (24:52):
Yeah, Well then you get a challenges too. You're moving
the floor up, so you move the floor up. Now
do you make the seat shorter or you do you
move up the h point of the occupant. There's all
these trade offs you have to make. Just by putting
these battery packs under the floor creates all kinds of
problems and makes more.

Speaker 7 (25:08):
Problem to make that hole in the Yeah, that's that's
exactly that.

Speaker 6 (25:12):
This is even crazier.

Speaker 7 (25:13):
Yeah, you mentioned looking at other markets, you know, betting
and that kind of thing of all the shows you
go to and what you're exposed to it other realms,
what what is kind of jazzing you the most these
days of what you're seeing. It could be applied to
what your company is doing.

Speaker 5 (25:32):
Yeah, I mean it can't get into specifics of it.
But sensor technology, I believe is really to me personally,
is very interesting. And there's so much sensor development going
on for meeting room occupancy sensors, medical sensors, there's all
these other industries that use sensors and and and figuring

(25:54):
out how those could translate to an automotive seat is
i think really exciting and really interesting.

Speaker 7 (25:59):
And for vesting into facial recognition, which really surprised me too.

Speaker 5 (26:03):
Yes, that would be a product with our electronics division.
So a little outside of my scope and seating, but yes, yeah,
So when.

Speaker 4 (26:11):
You talk about sensors in seating, so would this be like, okay,
it would it would sense my body heat and then
maybe send a signal to the HVAC system and say
he's cold or he's warm, you know, or this one scenario.

Speaker 5 (26:29):
I mean, it's it's more so about monitoring posture and
comfort and things like that.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
And I would think medical emergencies, you're in danger of
having a heart attack, You're in danger of having an
epileptic fit or something that could impair your driving, or
you're drunk or that.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
But I don't know, did you you could?

Speaker 6 (26:50):
We have to be really drunk. You know that.

Speaker 5 (26:54):
That really is up to the OEM how they want
to use the technology. There is technology out there that
can do that, but it's really up to our customers
how they want to use it. We're not in the
business of making medical devices. So you know, something that
can detect a heart attack or a stroke or something
like that, that's up to the OEM how they want
to use it.

Speaker 6 (27:11):
That's up to our customers.

Speaker 5 (27:12):
We'll just provide the technology and let them apply it
how they want.

Speaker 4 (27:15):
Okay, so I'm on a long distance drive and the
thing senses while his butt is getting sore. So would
there be a way of like adjusting the foam or
something to make it well.

Speaker 5 (27:27):
You can adjust the seat, we can adjust the back angle,
we can adjust the cushion angle. Right, this would be
without driver in you You at least I believe the
law is you have to alert the driver that you're
going to do something. Anytime you're going to make an
adjustment without their consent, you have to alert them the

(27:50):
seat's about to move. So there would have to be
some warning that would pop up that says, you've been
sitting in this position for too long?

Speaker 6 (27:55):
Would you like to would you like the seat to
adjust your comfort?

Speaker 5 (27:58):
And you acknowledge it, and then the seat makes an adjustment,
but it can't just start moving on its own.

Speaker 6 (28:03):
But you see sensors allowing you to stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
Yes, real good.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
We're going to have to wrap up this segment of
the show. Chad, thanks for coming on. I can't wait
to see the kind of seats that we're going to
have in our cars in a few years. And I
know that you were out scouting for that technology to
go in there.

Speaker 5 (28:20):
Thank you, Thank you a pleasure for being here.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
Real good. Yeah, thanks yet.

Speaker 7 (28:29):
Making the life full of memories, one road trip at
a time, that's what really matters.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Rich Stone Weather Peak Tires with the seventy thousand mile
women at Warranty.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
The automotive industry continues to evolve, and so do the
opportunities to define it. Borg Warner, one of the world's
most admired companies, gets its partners where they need to go.
Let's do something big together.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Don't worry.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Okay, we're back, and now we've got Paul Halterman joining
us from Auto Data's right.

Speaker 8 (29:10):
Yeah, we're a benchmarkers. We we like to look at
new energy vehicles. So hybrids, plug in hybrids are E
e vs, which is really hot right now, and E revs,
as we say out the side of the world. Well,
everybody's got their own acronym for it. Now. It seems
like some people call them harvard EV's it's, but they
all have the same thing, right, it's it's how do
you get more juice in that battery and extend the

(29:32):
range of the car.

Speaker 6 (29:33):
So I wait to see that here.

Speaker 8 (29:35):
Well, we're always going to be a laggered in any
V technology, but we will be seeing some r EV
vehicles on the road here in North America here.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
I mean, you know the Dodge Ram talked about the Yeah,
we've been talking about that forever.

Speaker 8 (29:52):
Right, It's gonna be a while before we're going to
see I would say, like a b white E car
with two thousand kilometers of and you know that sort
of thing. But I think it's really going to happen
because vehicle those drive lines are perfect for our large trucks,
are large SUVs, and I really think that that's going

(30:12):
to be the way that we're gonna be able to
keep those kinds of vehicles in our fleet.

Speaker 7 (30:15):
Yeah, or you got a keen eye on China. You
spend a lot of time there. I think just got
back from Shanghai's what's at the forefront of your radar
right now in terms of technology in that marketplace.

Speaker 8 (30:27):
Well, obviously the solid state batteries that are coming online.
So last year, at last year's Beijing Show, you had
Saic announce their battery that it's a semi salad state battery.
There was another carmaker that talked about their semi salad
has never gone into production with it, that would be
Neo and that was kind of interesting. But now this

(30:50):
year you've got Cherry going into production with their their
their their lineup. They're saying twenty twenty seven. Everybody's looking
at like twenty twenty seven for the first what we
called AsSb all solid state battery applications, are.

Speaker 7 (31:03):
They catal batteries? Who's the vendor.

Speaker 8 (31:07):
In the case of s A. I see no, and
there's a mix. There's a mix. So there's a couple
of things going on in China right now. You have
the Chinese government put together consortium about maybe eight months
ago between C A t L, Cherry, a few of
the other guys. There was a handful of people didn't play,
and the reason that they didn't play is they already

(31:27):
have it. Okay, So but it's going to go into
the premium cars at first, and because it's it's a
cost hit, but it's a big weight to save, it's
a big improvement and energy density. It's a big improvement
in safety. I mean, we're not going to have fires
when solid state batteries are out there.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
I was there at the Shanghai Tou last week and
c at L was showing off sodium batteries. So they
had a starter battery, low voltage starter battery for big
diesel trucks, all sodium lithium sodium, and they also showed
a battery pack for a car that was sodium. And

(32:10):
I was told that they're shooting for thirty to thirty
five dollars per kilowatt hour with those batteries, which means
the whole BEV powertrain would be much cheaper than a
nice power train. And you know, the big question mark
over sodium is what's their cycle life?

Speaker 3 (32:30):
You know, how many times can you charge and discharge that.

Speaker 8 (32:32):
Cycle life from power density? Those are the two big
open questions.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Right, you need at least a thousand cycles minimum before
automotive will consider it. C ATL was claiming three thousand
cycles on these sodium batteries.

Speaker 6 (32:45):
So you're talking about charges, yes.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
Charges, yes, right, because you know each time you discharge
and charge battery, it degrades it a little bit. And
with sodium it was like they'd give out before a
thousand charges. And you know, so everybody wants a battery
that's going to last the lifetime of a car. But
when I heard thirty to thirty five bucks a kill
a lot of Now it doesn't have the energy density

(33:08):
of LFP, but they're getting very, very close, they claimed,
And so I thought that was a pretty exciting development.

Speaker 7 (33:15):
And you can minimize the thermal management system with those batteries.
Is that correct?

Speaker 3 (33:19):
In the vehicle unaffected by cold weather?

Speaker 6 (33:22):
That was what they told.

Speaker 8 (33:23):
Yeah, And actually if you take a look c ATIL
and even BYDE they are both evolving their batteries so
that they can be competitive longer. Okay, they've had a
lot of capital investment there. I like to compare it. Remember, gosh,
what thirty years ago they were talking about the plastic car,
the plastic car, and then the steel guys. What do they

(33:44):
do they you know, with HSLA and all these other variations.
And I only think that that's going to play out
in the battery space too. But the other thing I
think was really interesting about Shanghai was all of the
ELF potential L three eight s stuff that's coming out,
because that's really interesting. I always like to tell people
that I'm hoping to be the first generation whose children

(34:06):
do not take the car keys away from me. So
and I tell my wife, I think we're still on schedule.

Speaker 4 (34:13):
Paul, I want to ask you about the vehicles that
you saw at the Shanghai show in terms of the
number of introductions that were evs versus the number of
introductions that were ice vehicles.

Speaker 8 (34:26):
Well, obviously in the China market it's it's all about
an EV's, you know that that's plug in hybrid, the
revs and the b EV's all combined. That the legislation
is written that way, you get the license plate quicker.
In the large cities, you don't have to go and
free exactly, you have to pay the twenty thousand dollars
and there's just all these advantages to it. If you
take a look. China's running at about a fifty five

(34:48):
percent star right now on anyvs, so it's really happening.
So but what was interesting is for me, the biggest
thing that I found interesting at the show was Toyota
Lexus and Audi and s A I C Audi. For

(35:09):
those of you who don't know, there's two Audi's in China.
There's the faw Audi, which was the first joint venture
that Audi had in China, and then they created one
with s C I C A couple of years ago.
They'll have their own dealer networks, they have their own
unique cars. You actually have to go to maybe two
different Audi dealers in a city if you want to
look at s A I C Saudi versus FAW Saudi.

(35:31):
But the faw Oudi is built off of I'm sorry.
The s A I C Audi is off of the
I M Motors platform that s A I S has
and it was a really nice quick go to market.
They don't have the Audi rings on the front of it.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Well, you know, we got to talk about that because
this was the show where Audi started showing cars that
just said au d I without the four.

Speaker 8 (35:55):
Rings, and obviously that's that's a big thing, right, But
I think what I fought very interesting is the cars
themselves don't look like traditional Audi products. That's right. It's
like they let let them take the gloves off. And
it's the same thing that happened with the Toyota and
Alexis models. So they basically Toyota let the China team

(36:15):
break the rules. Okay, break the rules and how they
do things, who they do them with. I find it
very exciting because for me, it's the first time I've
seen Japan inc or like really paunch back.

Speaker 7 (36:27):
Okay, So who is the alpha dog in that play?
Brand wise?

Speaker 6 (36:32):
Is it?

Speaker 7 (36:33):
Is it Audi? Why is would Audi be in there
for the customer to well brand heritage, et cetera.

Speaker 8 (36:41):
Well, come back to the point I just made a
little while ago, and that is it. You know, it's
the largest car market in the world and it's fifty five.
If you don't have great ANYV products, you're not going
to be competitive. And I hate to say it, but
the first round of stuff that came out of Wolfsburg
wasn't that great.

Speaker 7 (36:57):
Posters will get.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
Right from any of the legacies, exactly.

Speaker 8 (37:00):
Exactly exactly. So uh and that's where I really give
VW credit. You know when they when they sat down
and they started doing the joint ventures with the Chinese
companies and went after software and and and you know,
they bet big, they bet big, And Toyota is doing
the same thing. And I find that quite interesting.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
So you see this as these Audi vehicles, these Toyotas,
these Lexus.

Speaker 6 (37:24):
Vehicles will be just China market vehicles.

Speaker 8 (37:27):
No, actually, that ES is coming here, that electric es
is coming here. You take a look at that ess
they showed at the show. I loved it.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
I thought it was, well they build it here.

Speaker 8 (37:37):
Well yeah, but they might build it in Japan, Okay,
and bring it here. I don't think they bring it
from China.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
But it's still going to get hit with the twenty
five import here.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
The way things stay half four years, Yeah.

Speaker 8 (37:48):
We'll see.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
So well, I mean with with these with these vehicles
that that were there, and John, you know, chime in,
because you know you you've spent your days there.

Speaker 7 (37:58):
I mean.

Speaker 4 (38:01):
Calibrate for the audience what they would see at a
domestic US auto show versus what you experience.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
So the way I would describe Shanghai is imagine putting
the LA Show in combination with the Chicago show and
the Detroit Show and the New York show.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Put that all together plus the playoffs. Now double it.
Now double it again.

Speaker 7 (38:26):
How about frank Is there an industry presence.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
Bigger than the Frankfurt Show?

Speaker 7 (38:30):
Is there industry suppliers and so forth?

Speaker 4 (38:32):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, absolutely, okay and so okay, we've
talked about real estate.

Speaker 6 (38:37):
Here would you add cs.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yeah, and s frinkle cees and on top of that,
so there's tech, there's supplier stuff, there is a custom
car stuff. There's h of course all the OEMs and
there's so many of them, and there's there's so I mean,
you get into visual overload.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
It's like what the hell.

Speaker 8 (39:00):
Car is that?

Speaker 6 (39:00):
What's a what?

Speaker 7 (39:01):
Where?

Speaker 3 (39:01):
Randoms?

Speaker 7 (39:01):
This is?

Speaker 3 (39:02):
What is it?

Speaker 2 (39:03):
It's like, I mean, if you're a car freak like
we all are, and and like everybody watching the show
is I mean, you're gonna o da everything that you're
looking at there.

Speaker 8 (39:13):
And the thing that was helpful I think for a
lot of people that aren't used to all of these
brands underneath these companies, S A, I C had their
own hall, okay, and it was all s A I see.
So MG's there, okay, you know, I M motors, this
Audi brand. Same thing at BID. So you go over
to the B whyd hall. You got B why D,
You've got DENSA, You've got.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Remember when you say their hall only one floor, because
it's it's a double floor thing. So I mean when
you say it's a whole hall, it is a whole hall, but.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
It's only on the first floor. You go up on
the second floor, there's a you know, duplicate of that.

Speaker 8 (39:47):
Lindsay, it's the only thing that comes close to it
was Frankfurt in the old days. Yeah, sure, but but
it's still much better, glitzier, more tech. It's it's it's it's.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
I tell you one thing that surprised me because I
was there for one of the media days in a
public day, so our industry day, excuse me, And so
I deliberately went to see the Ford booth and the
GM booth just to see what because I've always heard
people in the media say, oh man, you go to Shami.
You go to Neo, it's jam packed, and you go
to Ford or GM and you can shoot cannons through

(40:21):
and not hit anybody.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
Not true that.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Chinese were all over the Mustang GT convertible. They were
in and out of the Bronco with the doors off,
and I mean they And one of my hosts told me, yeah,
he said, look, iconic American brands still resonate even with
everything going on and.

Speaker 8 (40:43):
Display, I mean that this product is gorgeous. It's gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Well, and I had to ask myself, okay, are you
just a homeboy here looking at Buick and saying it's
the best looking cars in the display? They were the
best looking cars there. The concepts that they showed were
knockout good.

Speaker 8 (41:00):
Far from their production.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Right right right. You could tell they're very really very
close to production.

Speaker 4 (41:04):
Okay, but in the China market, General Motors has six
percent of the market. Yeah, now the third the six
percent is from Wooling and bow John That's so that's
basically it's It seems to me that based on that,
what these people were looking at were like unicorns that
happened to be wandering through.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
The halls, like look, it's to Paul's point, you know,
like you were saying, the Japanese are finally starting to
punch back. The Germans are start so we are the Americans.
They've all gotten their clocks coined. It's taken them a
couple of years to realize, what the hell do we
have to do? Now they're on the verge of doing.

Speaker 8 (41:34):
And one of the best selling executive MPVs is a
Buick gl eight. Yeah, the gl eight built out the
old GM minivan platform.

Speaker 3 (41:43):
That's right, we'll see them everywhere exactly.

Speaker 8 (41:45):
But you know, one of the reasons why GM has
to do this is they need to go back to
the market share they had a few years ago. General
Motors was very strong, Buick was huge, exactly exactly, and
it's it's important for them to invest in the electric space.
I have friends of mine say, oh, why gieven Ford
investing electric cards is because Europe is pushing twenty five points,

(42:05):
China is over fifty points. These are international companies. If
they want to stay in business long term, they better
be playing because if not, they're just going to go
further further backwards.

Speaker 4 (42:15):
But did you guys, I mean, so you're talking earlier
about say, say BYD and what it is bringing to
market with you know, clever batteries and you know it's
got advanced eight S systems and so on. I mean,
do you see companies like Ford and General Motors being
competitive with that or just being in the market and as.

Speaker 8 (42:37):
A brand, they will be a follower, but they're going
to have to be competitive because they just won't get
the sales.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Look, they're just going to for the China market. They'll
adopt Chinese technology. They'll go to the Huaweis or the
Shamis or whoever it is and say we want that too.

Speaker 8 (42:51):
You see, German premiums are actually adopting the Huwaiwei harmony
system on their vehicles. That's a big surprise, right, big surprise.

Speaker 7 (42:59):
You mentioned and SAE level three autonomy, and I've always
wondered over there.

Speaker 6 (43:04):
You know.

Speaker 7 (43:04):
One of the impediments for av in this market in
general has been concerns over data privacy, data security. I mean,
there's senate subtiability. They love this kind of thing. And
with your knowledge of China, Paul, it's a surveillance society.
It's a communist, autonomous or autocratic society.

Speaker 6 (43:26):
Are there those impediments over there.

Speaker 7 (43:28):
For the Chinese OEMs that don't exist over there because
they don't have any worries about data security or privacy.

Speaker 8 (43:36):
Well, so it's kind of interesting. The government's very concerned
about mapping in the marketplace. So you've seen some consortiums,
some local consortiums set up so that international carmakers can
do business with them. There are concerns about liability. Just
a few weeks ago there was a massive crash with
a Jayomi SU seven with their eight ass system. But
what it's nice about it the Chinese government is actually saying,

(43:59):
you know what, we are actually going to release some standards,
and that's what the industry likes. That provides certainty. Right,
if there's a specification, we can design a specification. And
the other big thing is they're wanting to make sure
that the marketing guys stop calling this stuff autopilot.

Speaker 7 (44:14):
Kay right, Yeah, But in terms of scooping up data,
which AI is just ravenous about. Yeah, is the government
kind of hands off that because they're doing it anyway
to their own citizen.

Speaker 8 (44:26):
Well, the automakers are grabbing the data that they need
to do what they're doing, and the government's letting them
and I'll leave it at that.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
One thing.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
I want to get onto Slate, you know, but just
to wrap up our talk about the Shanghai Show, you'll
get a kick out of this.

Speaker 8 (44:42):
Gary.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
I cannot believe how many Chinese stopped me to take
a selfie. And I had one guy run up and
he had Autoline after hours playing on his.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
Phone and he said, is that you?

Speaker 2 (44:55):
And I said, yeah, that's me, and he said, I
got to take a picture. I was, you know, interviewed
by three different bloggers in different places at the show.
And I asked one of my Chinese hosts, what's going
on here? I thought, you guys can't get YouTube or
our website.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
And they said, oh no, no, no, you can get.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
A VPN virtual private network, virtual private network that gets
you around the Great Firewall of China.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
And there's this the YouTube.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Of China, some people call it. It's called Billy Billy
and our videos are on there too and with Chinese translation.
So that floored me, that, you know, getting stopped on
the floor of the Shanghai Show to have people take selfies.

Speaker 7 (45:38):
With me, maybe in your digital twin.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
My avatar.

Speaker 8 (45:42):
Now, the Chinese consumers are really into their cars and
really into the technology and they like to do all
that pre shopping and understand every little thing that's going on.
It's it's it's a fun market. It's a fun market.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
So let's go to Slate because man, everybody in this
country has been talking about this inexpensive small, basic elect
trick pickup truck. Love to get your guys on read
of the whole thing, all.

Speaker 6 (46:04):
Right before they say anything, I would to say.

Speaker 4 (46:06):
Aaron Keating from Cox Automotive said something today that was
interesting on a on a call okay Ontworth Press Association webcast,
and it was about Slate and she said, you know,
all of us who are watching this, we all know
about Slate because of the things that we read and
the things that we hear. She goes, but the people

(46:27):
who are really interested in a vehicle of that nature
have no idea that it exists. So in other words,
you know, if you read the Verge, you know all
about it, right, I mean, but if you're just someone
who's reading you know, the Lavonna Observer, forget about it.

Speaker 6 (46:43):
So based on that Lindsey Well a couple of things.

Speaker 7 (46:48):
It's it proves the point that under the radar Detroit
and Southeast Michigan is still a huge development hub. It
was for Tesla, nobody knew about it. It was for Rivian.
And here's this program that's been in Troy for what
three or four years X Chrysler engineer running the show,
and boom it just appears, and you know, it makes

(47:10):
you think how many other similar programs are incubating in
this area. So that was really impressive. As a guy
who loves cheap simple drives, a Ford, Maverick Hybrid, et cetera,
low cost, it's something that you think about, like, I
wish they'd build a cheap pick up, a cheap simple pickup,

(47:31):
you know, But when reality hits, I see it and
I haven't seen I mean, I saw the convertible suv
you know, version of it, but single cab as a
non starter. The bed looks really short, it's all like long,
it's all electric. It's got crank windows, which maybe if

(47:52):
the cab is small enough, I could reach across and
crank that window, but that's gone. It would have to
be like so inexpensive for me as a personal transportation.
Now I can see the local NAPI store that delivers parts.
They've got like rangers or something. It would probably be
good for them, you know, but we all talk about,
particularly in the press, we all talk about, wouldn't it

(48:13):
be great? You know, the world's cheapest car, and all
you need is this and I don't need all this
kind of you know, the frills and so forth. But
I think when the rubber meets the road, I think
a few people will buy it. That's my feeling.

Speaker 8 (48:27):
I actually think it's a very interesting proposition. Okay, I'm
a board member at Strategic Vision. They have the largest
new car buyer survey two hundred and fifty thousand respondents
every year, and we know for fact that over a decade,
average people cannot afford a new car. In fact, if
you take a look at the demographics of the new

(48:48):
car public or buying a population, okay, it's significantly older,
significantly more conservative, and more affluent than the rest of
the United States. So there's this app tuning down to
the bottom. Those people right now, all they can aspire
to is a used car. And now you're talking about
college kids, and I mean all sorts of I would say,

(49:09):
possibilities open up, and how much do they need to
sell one hundred thousand?

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Yeah, well they're tooling up for one hundred and forty,
which I think is ambitious.

Speaker 8 (49:20):
But I'm just being the suv and the truck, right right,
that's correct.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
So, but I'm with you. Number one, how did they
keep this secret?

Speaker 8 (49:28):
I mean, I've been dying to tell people, I've been
keeping them in mouse shot.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Well, I've known about it for a couple of months.
But to Lindsay's point, they've been at this for a
couple of years, and I'm stunned that didn't leak out.
Number two is you know they let me in for
a deep dive on it. Really impressed about the way
they went about developing this thing. This was not you
know some people who are like, hey, let's start a
car company. You know, these are seasoned pros who know

(49:56):
what they're doing, and I love their proposition. To your point,
they want to go after wage earners with this truck.
They don't want EV adopters, ev evangelists. They're not looking
for early adopters. They're looking for people who work by
the hour, who cannot afford a new car, who would

(50:17):
love to have something brand new with the latest safety equipment,
with a full warranty as well.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
And I think they found a nice white space.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
So why don't these people buy a certified pre owned
Tacoma so they do today? Right, But I mean, so
I just don't see. Okay, so what are the margins
going to be on this vehicle?

Speaker 3 (50:39):
That's a good question.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
Okay, So, I mean, I'm a big fan of inexpensive products,
but I just don't see how you make a business
case for this.

Speaker 7 (50:47):
I look at the example of back in was it
the eighties and early nineties, there was that super cheap Civic.
Nobody wanted it. There was a super cheap Corolla. There's
been super cheap versions of a lot of cars that
were designed for the different economic situation, but designed for
the same purpose. Is this will give somebody a new car.
Nobody wanted it. Everybody wanted the loaded version.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
We all know.

Speaker 7 (51:09):
You walk into the dealership, intend to buy something. I'm
not spending any more money than this. It's only two
grand more and you get a heated steering wheel and.

Speaker 6 (51:18):
You're, oh, I'm so old.

Speaker 8 (51:19):
You know, there's a lot of customization options with this
vehicle too.

Speaker 4 (51:25):
Walks up like this, But does Slate make money on
that or are they going to be having third parties
They're going to be providing these options.

Speaker 8 (51:34):
We're going to find out right, And I think the
interesting thing is Bezos is behind it. Look at his
early business model was he wasn't about margin, he was
about taking market share and establishing a presence. And then
it worked. I mean it worked. I was skeptical, you
know Amazon in the old days. I was skeptical on
Tesla too, so whatever.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
But you know, but Bezos is not you know, he's
not has the Midas touch.

Speaker 6 (51:58):
I mean, look at Blue Origin versus Bax. Okay, it's
not even I'm.

Speaker 8 (52:02):
Just saying he's got the money to make it.

Speaker 6 (52:03):
Well, he's got the money.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
But you know, the word came out that Bezos was
an investor and now everyone's calling it to the Bezos company.

Speaker 6 (52:08):
He's remote.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
He's the guy who came up with the idea. He's
not the guy who led the charge. There's two billionaires
that started this whole thing and they talked to Bezos
and he said, yeah, I'll give you guys money. And
that's his involvement.

Speaker 7 (52:22):
So what's the manufacturing plan for this? Is it contract manufacturing.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
They've got their own plant in Indiana, Warsaw, Indiana. It's
just five million square fee had to be a.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
Printing place, a car plant, don planet our, Donnelly printing plan.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
So, I mean, these guys have been so frugal. It's
really impressed. So I'll give you one little story. They
found out that a company down the street, and so
they moved into a headquarters building that Malay had vacated.
So there's just a building sitting empty there.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
Boom. They don't build some beautiful palace. They move in.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
They see that a neighbor down the street is getting
rid of a whole bunch of office equipment, chairs and desks.
They went, whoa, that's exactly what they need. They went
garbage picking for all that stuff, so to speak.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
And so the.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Vehicle is molded plastic, much cheaper than going with stamping.
It's not painted. You just eliminated three hundred to five
hundred million dollars worth of pink shot. No, you're going
to get wraps all different colors and patterns and everything
that you can customize the look of the truck. Even
even stickers for the wheels to customize the wheels.

Speaker 4 (53:37):
So and once you be unhappy after you have this wrap,
and after about six eight months that you.

Speaker 8 (53:41):
Put another wrap on it, give you another cover orted.

Speaker 6 (53:44):
To do that more money.

Speaker 4 (53:46):
So suddenly we're going to have this situation where your
very frugal vehicle is not going to be so frugal.

Speaker 8 (53:52):
Right, that's the manufacturing point. The paint shop is expensive,
but it's also the pinch point for the whole plant.

Speaker 6 (53:57):
Right.

Speaker 8 (53:58):
That going to determine how many units you can run through.

Speaker 6 (54:01):
There.

Speaker 8 (54:01):
If you don't have a paint shop, you can increase
productivity rapidly in modular ways. It's it's very interesting.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Or you go the tesla unboxed approach, which is modular
and which is which is, and now you can stuff
a whole bunch of panels through your paint shop and
so run a whole lot more through.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
But yeah, the best idea of all is just get
rid of.

Speaker 8 (54:21):
The paint shop.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
All right, So let's just say, for the sake of arguments,
and somebody comes up with a very inexpensive black and
white TV, how many people are going to go buy that?

Speaker 2 (54:30):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (54:30):
And by the way, it has rabbit ears.

Speaker 8 (54:31):
Oh. I think that's kind of an unfair that.

Speaker 4 (54:35):
It's because because as Lindsay pointed out, people are used
to amenities and vehicle medical menis and and so suddenly people.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Don't buy it.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
No, it's going to be for the college good. It's
going to be for people who are are not affluent,
who aspire to own something new and something cool.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
And there's a there's a coogl factor to this truck.

Speaker 8 (54:56):
Do think about all those original Chevy Blazers that were
two doors. They're hot vehicles, now, okay.

Speaker 7 (55:02):
They are, But why can't the automakers sell single cab trucks.
They can't. It's done, you know. I mean you can
order I think an F one fifty, but nobody wants that.
So I always think that when I go to southern
California and see all these old like first gen Toyota
and even Dots and four speed, four cylinder, no ac
crank window pickups that are still running because they don't

(55:22):
rust out out there, every time I think, why does
Why can't somebody deliver a vehicle like that? So maybe
this will be that vehicle. I don't know. I think
it all electric. I think that's that's a mistake.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Out of the box.

Speaker 7 (55:35):
I think it ought to be a hybrid.

Speaker 6 (55:37):
Oh well, said by the pickup truck hybrid owner.

Speaker 8 (55:41):
Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know, are you talking about
an engine line transmission?

Speaker 4 (55:45):
I know, but the range miles another.

Speaker 8 (55:48):
Billion dollars investment.

Speaker 7 (55:50):
The three of us, Paul have been and even when
I worked at CSM, we've debated this like since like
the eight nineteen eighties. You know, how to do modular,
how to do stuff cheap, eliminating pinch points like you say,
you know, getting it down to a basic high quality vehicle.

Speaker 6 (56:05):
And remember the Chrysler CCV. I was going to mention
that the car.

Speaker 7 (56:10):
I was going to mention that with our previous guests.
I remember sitting in a seat evaluation at Chrysler that
Kistang bought a Douchevo and they took the car apart.
And he told these he told the engineers, and he
told the suppliers who came in, this is your target.
And they had three platforms set up and they had

(56:31):
an audience, and they had they had the Douchevo seat,
which is like a lawn chair. It was like literally
tubes with fabric across it you put in your backyard.
And they had like the current Neon seat or whatever
it was, and then like the premium seat. And the
exercise wasn't to just do something for CCV, it was
how do you get costs some complexity out of the

(56:53):
regular Neon seat and like the Chrysler, you know, three
hundred seat And I remember Kistang drilling into they had
Joss controls in, they had lear and I think they
had freshia in and he just drilled these.

Speaker 8 (57:08):
They're trying four in those states, like yeah, like.

Speaker 7 (57:10):
Like, you know, why can't you do this? And these
guys were like, there's no way we can do. We
can't even do, we can't do halfway.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
To this because what they're looking at there's no margin.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
I know, I know, but you know, going back to
you know, why why could this truck catch out?

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Look how long it took Ford to come out with
the Maverick.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
You know, for years and years and years everybody said,
why can't you come out with a smaller truck, And
there's wow, you know, we got the Ranger and we
got the f one fifty and that meets the needs
of our customers. So they finally bit the bullet, did
the Maverick, and boom it's off to the race. And
so I'm telling you, I don't know if they're going
to sell enough to make money, but there's going to
be a niche for this slate truck.

Speaker 7 (57:53):
John, I might eat my shoe leather because I might
actually be in the cheap simple vehicle guy. I might
drive up here one day and I don't know what
production next year, fourth quarter next year for a twenty
seven model.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
Right, the twenty seven model year.

Speaker 7 (58:09):
Well, yeah, good for them, I predict that's kind of
what I'm predicted could be early adopters.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
But you know what if you look at that truck
and it's an suv too, you know, they just put
a cap on it and a back seat in it,
and now you've got an suv. And then there's two versions.
There's one with an upright back window of back light
for more cargo, or one that's slanted forward to give
it a bit more of a sporty look. But when

(58:39):
you sort of squint, you think, man, you could do
a sedan off this too, you know, And I wouldn't
be surprised if it's a top hat exactly right. So
you could lower the body, you could you could expand
the model line for not much money at all.

Speaker 4 (58:58):
All right, John, So, so your frame favorite skunk works
in California, The Ford Works coming out with something that's
going to be small and electric and very expensive, right,
ain't gonna be good for that company?

Speaker 8 (59:09):
No, you could be.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
Exactly right, and I'm yeah, I would love to learn
more about that. Ford skunk Works and guess what we
know about that, because Ford's talked about it, and Toyota's
talked about it's bed factory, which is sort of there
are skunk works.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
If you will.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
What's going on that they're not talking.

Speaker 4 (59:26):
Which the Okay, So let's just say for the sake
of argument, that Ford comes sees Slate having this success.

Speaker 6 (59:33):
Now, there's no company in the world that makes more
and better trucks than Ford.

Speaker 4 (59:37):
Anybody dispute that, well, Mark Royce would dispute that if.

Speaker 7 (59:42):
My Mavericks had eight recalls. But I've had no problems.

Speaker 4 (59:46):
But my point is is that if Ford sees a
truck competitor in a space where it suddenly has this
brand new, inexpensive thing, it's going.

Speaker 6 (59:53):
To come out with, you know, a competitor, right.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
Or is somebody going to go buy Slate?

Speaker 7 (01:00:01):
Make me ask a question to mister Halderman here your
knowledge of China talking about simplifying vehicle design and engineering
to lower cost and lead times too and everything. Okay,
what are you hearing Paul about in addition to solid
state batteries giga castings because we had heard that, I
think by D had jumped into that. Are some of

(01:00:23):
those programs kind of up and running over?

Speaker 8 (01:00:25):
Not kind of?

Speaker 6 (01:00:26):
They are?

Speaker 7 (01:00:26):
They are?

Speaker 6 (01:00:26):
They are.

Speaker 8 (01:00:27):
Everyone has adopted Tesla's mindset there with the front giga casting,
the back giga casting, battery, battery to pack to body. Okay,
it's there. They're all doing it.

Speaker 7 (01:00:40):
Using two to three underbodies basically that are joined together.

Speaker 8 (01:00:44):
Well, you're bringing the front giga casting, uh to the
to the battery, You're bringing the back giga casting to
the battery, the batteries, got the seats already decked on it. Okay,
So you know there's your there's your like mini module
right there.

Speaker 6 (01:00:57):
What do you hear about crank windows?

Speaker 8 (01:00:59):
You know what you can? You can get them out
of Mercedes E class if you want. In Germany. You
know they in China. In China, I have not seen
the car. Okay. A lot of those really cheap Chinese
guys are going on. That's the next big thing. Who's
going to survive the next ten years. There's gonna be
one heck of a shakeout there and not just there. Yes,

(01:01:20):
it's going to affect, right, but it's gonna start.

Speaker 7 (01:01:24):
Is it taking so long? And we talked about that
in the CSM days, about this universe of small Some
of these companies are like two thousand units a year,
but they're in the hinterlands and they employ people.

Speaker 8 (01:01:34):
Yeah, those are already fading out. And now the price
war that was started in China has made it very
uncomfortable for.

Speaker 7 (01:01:42):
The little guys.

Speaker 8 (01:01:43):
There's only three guys making money in China right now
according to my sources.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
So that's b y d Le Auto and who's the
third Esla Tesla up until.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
This year, Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, But see that tells
you everything about the Chinese market is where it's going.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Nobody he's making money.

Speaker 8 (01:02:02):
It is the regional government going to bail out Neo again,
I don't know, we're going to seck.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Here's what it's going to come down to, because who
was it g Lee and who was it Shahn?

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
Do you remember that we're going to merge shen Yang
and dung Fing.

Speaker 8 (01:02:16):
Yes, yes, yes, so still talking.

Speaker 4 (01:02:19):
Here's how the conversation is going to be the biggest
company in China.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
And yeah, and so here's how the conversation is going
to go. Okay, we we need to merge and we
have to get synergy, so we have to get rid
of stuff that's overlapping.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
So you're closing three of your plans.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
And you're going to say no, no, no, you're closing
three of your plants because we got to keep these
jobs going.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
That's why these plants are just for.

Speaker 8 (01:02:40):
Jobs particulated those two particular OEMs because they're both stayed
own enterprises. Right, they're not public exactly. He's like some
of the other guys. Yes, right, so those are jobs machine.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
That's exactly right, And that's where all this talk about
synergy is going to break down.

Speaker 8 (01:02:55):
I think, well, I still think we're going to see
dead bodies on the side of the road. Yeah, because
you just you just all the capitol and then.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Maybe that should be the title of the show, dead
Bodies by the side of it.

Speaker 6 (01:03:08):
So who are the dead bodies?

Speaker 4 (01:03:10):
We keep talking about the consolidation that never happened.

Speaker 8 (01:03:13):
My customer, I can't do that, yeah, yeah right, and
that goes off yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Anyway, Actually we're a little bit past our time unless
you got something, Okay, So we're going to wrap up now.
Paul Halterman, what what Shawn scottson, Oh Terry, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So last time I was on the show two weeks ago,
before I went to China, I sort of went off
the nut Terra saying I refused to report on anything

(01:03:39):
to do with the company until they actually put a
vehicle into production. Much to my chagrin, I have found
out they're big fans of the show and they were
watching the show and here I'm ripping them another one.

Speaker 7 (01:03:51):
They're the three wheeler.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yes, So anyway, Sandy Monroe is involved with him. He
has acted as a go between. They've invited me out
to come and see their operations. So I'm going to
go out there and see what app Terra is all about.
I'm kind of actually excited to see it.

Speaker 8 (01:04:08):
They've evolved. They show some interesting product at CES this year.
We exhibit all the shows. We're at CEES, We're at Shanghai,
We're going to do Munich so we're going to do
Tokyo the next time around also, so it's always interesting
to see what's happening. But that comes evolved quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
But Yeah, well, we haven't set a date for me
to go out there yet, but we'll do that and
then I'll give everybody our prediction. Slate or Appterra Slately,
I would say, right now, Slate's got the momentum. They've
got a target date, they've got a plant.

Speaker 7 (01:04:41):
To pick up truck.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
It's a pickup truck.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
But the big thing is they have billionaires, you know,
backing them. They have a plant, they have a launch date, so.

Speaker 6 (01:04:53):
May not be billionaires anymore though.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
By the time this is a how do you make
a small fortune in the industry? Yeah, we know how
that show goes anyway, Lindsey Brook, great having you on
the show as again as Ollie's and Gary. You and
I will be back again next week when we hope
you join us.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
That auto line after Hours is brought to you by
Bridgestone Tires, Solutions for Your Journey and by Borg Warner.
The automotive industry continues to evolve, and so do the
opportunities to define it. Borg Warner, one of the world's
most admired companies, gets partners where they need to go.

(01:05:32):
Let's do something big together.