AAH #762 - Can Carbon Capture Save The Internal Combustion Engine?

TOPIC: Carbon Capture PANEL: Paul Yabs Kebede, Remora; Frank Markus, Motor Trend; Gary Vasilash, shinymetalboxes.net; John McElroy, Autoline.tv

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hey, everybody, thanks for joining us on Auto Line after Hours.
Garry is here riding shotgun with me.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
We missed you last week.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
Yeah, yeah, I was busy last week. We can talk
a little bit.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
About some of what I heard and the like. We've
got Frank Marcus here from Motor Trend. Great to have
you back on the show.

Speaker 5 (00:41):
Be here. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
But our special guest to today for the day is
Yabs Kabiti. He's with a company called Remora, and you
guys are working on carbon capture for internal combustion engines.
And I don't know where we want to start with
this first, just give us a thumbnail is Remora. How
did you guys get going?

Speaker 6 (01:02):
Yeah, thank you for having me here. Appreciate you guys
giving us this time. My name is the Opstracapti yops
at Romorra. We build a carbon captured device for CO
two emissions. Our focus at the moment is locomotives and
semi trucks. You can think of our system retrofitting to
these systems or vehicles by connecting to the tailpipe. From there,

(01:23):
we extract the CO two and purify the CO two
and produce food grade and beverage grade CO two.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
So you're going to sell the CO two correct? Yep,
So that's part of.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Your business plan here and not just make the equipment
but actually sell CO two correct.

Speaker 7 (01:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:38):
So in the rail application, you can think of our
system as an entire railcar behind the locomotive, and that
system connects from the locomotive. There's an exhaust duct or
piping that connects to our system. And then our system
is made up of four stages. Mainly the first we're
reducing the PM and NOx emissions of the locomotive.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
So you're doing more than just casting too, you're cleaning
up the exhaust.

Speaker 6 (02:01):
Yeah, so we're able to go from UH tier one
to tier four UH. And then from there we cool
and dry the exhaust and put it into our carbon
capture bed where we're able to extract the CO two
as I mentioned, and then the last step is where
we take out the CO two, extract it, terrify it,
and have food grade and beverage grade CO two available.
So we have a storage tank on board. As the

(02:24):
train stops for three fueling, they offload the CO two
and usually there's you know markets which we can talk
about where CO two is you know, highly in big
demand depending on the location.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Ere So it's piped out of the car without back pressure.

Speaker 8 (02:41):
Yes, that's what the part I'm really going to hear about.

Speaker 4 (02:44):
Without back pressure in the exhaust.

Speaker 5 (02:46):
So we're not like loading the engine up exactly right.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
And see that's what intrigued me because everything I've heard
about carbon capture up to now was that you put
it in a tank and it's like, well, you know,
how big does the tank have to be? But you
guys are doing this chemically. It's it's almost like a
catalytic converter for CO two.

Speaker 6 (03:04):
If it's it's not chemically, what is that? So for
the back pressure piece, we have blowers on board that
are managing the float that's coming down the pipe. And
then from there we have these pellets. You can think
of them kind of like peas or you know, little
nerf balls. Maybe where the CO two molecules have you know,

(03:25):
high preferential you know molecular Uh yeah, where they essentially
get stuck behind while the other constituents like nitrogen and
water come out of the end of the bed. And
there's two beds in this system. So the first bed
is where you're processing the exhaust and capturing the CO
two and then the other you know, constituents going out

(03:46):
to atmosphere and then while the other you're extracting the
CO two and pushing it down the pipeline for the
storage tank. So we have a storage tank on board.
It's a ten foot ISO container that stores about six
six thousand pounds or six thousand kilograms of CO two uh,
and offload whenever the locomotives are revealing and you're liquefying

(04:07):
it localifying correct.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
So so for those of us who are not train
spotters and have no idea about what's going on in
the railroad industry, I mean, what what are the emissions
regulations related to trains?

Speaker 6 (04:20):
Yeah, so in terms of emissions, you know, uh, there's
a lot of locomotives out there that are you know,
different tiers from the e p A.

Speaker 7 (04:28):
You know, there's tier zero up to tier four.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (04:31):
And there's there's still a lot of locomotives out there
that are like Tier four is the latest and.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
The same with cars.

Speaker 7 (04:37):
Exactly so uh.

Speaker 6 (04:39):
And so there's locomotives that don't meet that requirement at
the moment, and our system is able to provide that
plus give a you know, revenue generating system by having
us sell the CEO two uh to you know offset
the you know costs and you know use of that
device as well.

Speaker 8 (04:56):
So any of these adsorption systems, it holds on, but
then it has to be released. Tell me a little
b about the releasing is that vacuum?

Speaker 5 (05:04):
Is it heat?

Speaker 8 (05:05):
And where is the exhaust going while that's happening? Are
there parallel paths and it goes with this one now?
But then that one's being yep.

Speaker 9 (05:12):
Okay, yeah, So we we employ vacuum swing absortion so VSA,
and you know, like you mentioned, we have you know,
at least two sets of beds at a given time,
so one is always processing the exhaust while.

Speaker 6 (05:27):
The other is being regenerated. And then we switch and
then the other one is capturing the exhaust while the
other one's being regenerated. So you're always processing the exhaust
and you've.

Speaker 8 (05:37):
Got a full tender car on a train and on
a semi it's going to fit between the cab and
the trailer. Help me, because I have no idea displacement
of a locomotive engine. How's the scale compare? Is it
scale to the size of the engine or is it

(05:59):
scaled to the frequency of the refueling, which is your
only opportunity to offload.

Speaker 6 (06:04):
Yeah, so there's a lot that goes into the sizing
of this system. Our current target is, you know, to
fit within an eighty nine foot flat car, so that
will be trailing the locomotive. So that's our current benchmark,
and to try to fit in as much performance into
that system as possible. So at the moment, you know,
we're targeting our system to like I mentioned, around six

(06:27):
to eight thousand kilograms of CEO two during the you know,
locomotive burns you know, twenty five hundred gallons maybe you
know a weaker almost in two week period, they can
burn up to five thousand gallons. So that's like one
locomotive fuel tanker sized to five thousand gals, so that
they're burning quite a lot of diesel fuel.

Speaker 8 (06:48):
But is that it we need that much the CO
two because we only stop for fuel frequently enough to
do that, whereas a semi is gonna run out of
these little yeah tanks way sooner than that.

Speaker 7 (07:00):
Correct.

Speaker 6 (07:00):
Yeah, I think there is, you know, like I mentioned,
I think a lot of our focus at the moment
is on the locomotive space and trying to get that
device out as soon as possible to our customers. But yeah,
I think the there's a trade off of how much
space do we want to take, how much power do
we want to use. But I think right now kind
of the sweet spot is trying to fit everything within

(07:21):
that one flat car behind the locomotive, the tender car
you mentioned, so that we're able to put in as
much performance as possible and prioritizing you know, also hitting
that Tier four emission and.

Speaker 8 (07:32):
What's the energy consumption of this thing and the mass,
so like how many more horsepower do we need for
the same amount of payload.

Speaker 6 (07:42):
Yeah, our system power draw in you know, ratio from
what the locomotive is using around thirty percent, so we're
pulling you know, quite quite a bit of energy, but
we're also processing you know, the full exhaust to get
it to tier four, so that's NOx emissions PM emissions,
and then we're also taking that CO two and purifying

(08:03):
it to look with CO two and getting food grade.
So I mean, all of these processes take energy, but
like I mentioned, I think our goal is to have
that as a starting point and iterate to a point
where we can build a more efficient, less way in
packaging space. So I think there's I think as a startup,
you have to pick a point of say, okay, let
me hit this benchmark, let me get this out there,

(08:25):
Let's see what the operational issues may be, because I
think we have a lot of engineering ideas, but what
does it mean to actually be in these environments and
just you know, how do we fit this into their logistics, so.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
Speaking the environment and logistic things. So it seemed to
me that Okay, when a locomotive drives into a place
where it's going to be refueled, it probably has a
station that has been built out correct, and now you're
going to have this other eighty nine feet that's behind it,
and it would need some sort of mechanics and plumbing

(09:01):
and whatnot in order to get the CO two off.
Becomes a big infrastructure problem, doesn't it. I mean it's
so you guys can have all the engineering on word,
but somebody's got to build out some.

Speaker 6 (09:13):
Yeah, or we need CO two tanks at these facilities
or DTL truck that drives up to these locations to
offload the CO two. So I mean there is an added,
you know, operational piece to it and how we offload
the CEO two. But I think there is a lot
of interest in how we can essentially be able to

(09:36):
revenue share that product, right, So I think we have
to understand what that operational piece looks like. So that's
why we're engaging with all these customers to pilot these
units and see what that means, right, Because I think
we have ideas on how that might work different locations.
What does that mean, right? How how does this fit
into their current operations? And I think that's the piece

(09:57):
that we don't have. I mean, we have ideas on
but until we go out there and do it and
get feedback from our customers, we won't understand. But I
think from a capital cost deployment and what type of
instructure needs to be in place, I think, yeah, one
is potentially a CEO two storage tank, on site or
uh you know, a vehicle with the CO two tank

(10:18):
on board that cannot fload.

Speaker 8 (10:20):
Is we're more taking on that responsibility of figuring out
that infrastructure.

Speaker 6 (10:24):
Yeah, so I think it's I think that's something we're
working with with more customers to figure that out.

Speaker 7 (10:31):
But I think one of the other key.

Speaker 6 (10:33):
Piece to this is who are the end users of
the CO two right, so they also have a role
to play on this. And from the CO two perspective,
you know, one of our interests is you know, if
you look at where does our current CO two supply
come from, a lot of it, a quarter of it
is mined underground, and that's how we're using you know,
for industrial processes or food and beverage and a lot

(10:57):
of the cost that comes with CO two at the
moment in industrial use transport as well. So a lot
of the available CO two is is you know, located
in regions where it's not doesn't meet the demand. Uh
So with our technology and the rail system, we're able
to deploy these, you know, in these locations where there

(11:17):
is high demand for CO two and we're able to
displace some of these uh you know, non renewable or
just be able to displace the CO two that were
mining underground. So with our partners are trying to figure
out where are these demand locations, and then when we
offload these systems, we try to marry that with with
the customer. Right. So, uh, it's there's kind of like

(11:37):
a you know, there's three partners in this, right. The
rail system, we're able to reduce their emissions, they're able
to produce the CO two from their systems as they're
you know, moving freight around, and then match that up
with folks that need CO two and you know, so
there's a bit of a how do we partner with
all these folks.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
There's a coke plant that happened to be right there, you.

Speaker 6 (11:57):
Just yeah, and and and there's also a lot of
applications from water treatment to you know, welding gases, in food,
you know, preparation and storage.

Speaker 7 (12:08):
CO two is used.

Speaker 6 (12:09):
So there's a lot of usage of CO two. It's
like any commodity that we have. So we're trying to
figure out how do we take these sources that are
emitting CO two and actually use them to industrial benefits.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
I got to imagine that even though the railroads may
have to deal with a few headaches, i e. Add
another car behind the locomotive, figure out ways at refueling
stations to move CO two on and off. Compare it
to anything else that they need to do to reduce
CO two, right, whether it's looking at hydrogen or some
other thing. Your solution would allow them to continue using

(12:45):
the existing stock of locomotives that they've got, right.

Speaker 6 (12:48):
Yeah, I think the you know, I think we like
to think of ourselves as kind of the tool set,
and you know, a bunch of the different solution sets.
So we're able to provide that think the other pieces,
you know, with different fuel uses from the locomotives, we
were able to you know, further reduce the impact that

(13:09):
you know, we are having by burning these you know,
renewable or fossil fuels. But I think that but that
is kind of the solutions that we're providing is how
how do we take these locomotives that are at these
you know, that are widely used, there's a lot of them.
How do we how do we provide a solution for this?

Speaker 4 (13:27):
How clean does it make the exist?

Speaker 2 (13:29):
I mean, it take us through a little bit about
that what comes out of the engine and what comes
out at the end of the tailpipe once you guys
are done with it.

Speaker 6 (13:36):
Yeah, I mean, like I mentioned, the first step is
we have an after treatment system on board, right, So
we're i think on our current setup that we're testing
here at Wishom we have a Tier zero plus engine
and then from there the locomotive after being treated is
at a Tier four level. So that's NOx PM hydrocarbon's
carbon monoxide. So that's the first step.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
I'll just throw in here. Forest pretty strict. Yeah, I mean,
so you're hitting pretty clean standards.

Speaker 6 (14:03):
Yeah, and I think there's there's still you know, some pieces.

Speaker 7 (14:06):
That you know, we're testing right now.

Speaker 6 (14:09):
Right, so before we deploy onto the rail system and
our mobile system, we currently are building a stationary system
of that unit that you know, we've we've we started
a design cycle this year. We've put a railroad in
place so we could test this in our parking lot.
And the goal from there is to you know, prove
out some of these systems, figure out what the issues
are from a functionality and just engineering basis, right, What's

(14:31):
what are the issues? How do we get to these
requirements that were trying to meet. So that's what we're
testing for right now, and then in the meantime, we're
also building our mobile system, trying to figure out how
do we package this, make it mobile ready, make it
fit a lot of these operational requirements that we have
from our customers.

Speaker 8 (14:48):
And about the fuel, I mean, I don't know how
different locomotive fuel is from over the road semi diesel,
which I know has had a lot of.

Speaker 5 (14:55):
Solt for taken out.

Speaker 8 (14:57):
Is the fuel quality similar with the Yeah?

Speaker 6 (15:02):
Are you know we have you know, ultra low sulfur
diesel fuel requirement to use our system because again it
helps with how we build the after treatment system around it.

Speaker 5 (15:13):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (15:13):
And that's you know, mainly used for the at least
the systems we're requesting from our customers.

Speaker 5 (15:18):
And that's what all the trains use today. Yes, same,
pretty much the same.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, So what's your goal? What are you aiming at
when you get to tier four? What kind of percentage
reduction could we see in CO two particular matter and NLAX.

Speaker 6 (15:31):
Yeah, So from PM and Knox, we're talking about eighty
plus percent reduction right from the baseline.

Speaker 7 (15:38):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (15:38):
For CO two we're looking for forty plus reduction from
the baseline, so or forty percent capture efficiency, so we're
able to capture forty percent of what's what's what's being generated.

Speaker 5 (15:50):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (15:50):
And then you know, like we mentioned, we have uh
you know where we're we have a generator on board
that's powering all these devices, right, so we're also collecting
the missions from that device and you know, taking the
CO two and also cleaning up the missions from that units.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
So it seems to be it is it possible for
a locomotive basically that's a dirty locomotive to have after
treatment added on to it. Separate from what you're talking about,
I think some.

Speaker 6 (16:22):
Of the challenges are, you know, the back pressure issue
that we mentioned. I think that's that's one one piece.
And then you know packaging and placement, Right where do
you put that unit on an existing locomotive? So I
think pairing that two systems, you know in ours, we're
able to manage the back pressure of that, We're able
to allocate space and power for that system as well.

(16:46):
So I think that's the some of the trade offs
that you.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
Know, well I wondering about is is that to what
extent is the sale of the CO two that you
guys capture important to this whole system them in terms
of the economics for a rail company.

Speaker 6 (17:05):
Yeah, I mean I think there's you know, two pieces
to that. One is, you know, the after treatment. You know,
how are they able to for the systems that they
already have, like, how are they able to keep those
in play?

Speaker 7 (17:17):
Right?

Speaker 6 (17:17):
I think that's one piece, and then the other is, Okay,
how much is this you know, system overhead in terms
of cost? And I think I can't really talk about
what are you know, I guess financial agreements are. I
don't have too much insight into that. But but for them,
the economics is how how do we marry an after

(17:37):
treatment system that can let us use our current existing
locomotives And then what are what we're providing is that
plus a revenue generating system by selling this yo two
So it allows to offset the cost of you know,
what you're doing in terms of operationally and just having
that system on board. So I think that's kind of
the economics that goes into it from from their point

(17:58):
of view and us.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
What I'm intrigued by with the company is if I
got this right. Ramona has been around for five years, yeah,
and you've gone through multiple rounds of raising funds and
you've gotten it. So I've got to believe the rail companies,
the trucking companies and who else are very keenly interested
in this, that you've been working on this for so

(18:23):
long and still are able to raise money.

Speaker 7 (18:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (18:25):
Yeah, I mean we're fortunate to have a really great
executive leadership from Paul and Phil, Paul being.

Speaker 7 (18:32):
Our CEO and Fill our VP of engineering.

Speaker 6 (18:35):
But yeah, we you know, we've worked on a semi
truck application, learned a lot through that and what we've
seen is, you know, some advantages and do locomotive initially,
so we've pivoted towards that at the moment. But yeah,
we have, and I'm sure you might have looked at
our website a truck sized scale system our and our

(18:56):
books and facility.

Speaker 4 (18:57):
As well for a Class eight semi.

Speaker 6 (18:58):
Yeah, so similar to what we're doing with our current
build with the locomotive, we have a kind of a
stationary sprawled out system that is an engineering test bench
that's paired with a d D thirteen that we're testing
our you know, different equipments on and beds and you know,
vacuum pumps and all all the all these different equipments

(19:20):
and then we're you know, another piece that we're really
excited about in this the locomotive pieces. We're really leveraging
modular design where we're trying to leverage some of the
designs that we have on the uh the semi truck
design and applying it here so that we're able to
modulize and scale up or scale down the system as needed.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
UH.

Speaker 6 (19:43):
And then to to your earlier point like, how how
do we scale the system as you know, as our
performance is able to grow, right, so we'll be able
to potentially add those module systems on top of you
know what we have already in that volume or that space,
or you know, other energy efficiencies that we can find
by replacing those modular components so that we can scale
up to to treat you know, larger and larger engines

(20:05):
or you know, larger larger C two reductions from where
we are current.

Speaker 8 (20:08):
How much smaller co you go? Are we like the
smaller class diesel trucks, Yes, whether you don't have as
much room on board and as much payload to it.

Speaker 6 (20:18):
Yeah, I think there's there's there's a lot of work
that we are, you know, we need to do on
how do we fit in the packaging space of the
semi truck and how because I think that there's there's
a bit of work that we need to do to
understand how well can we fit our current system. I
think that's one of the challenges we have. But I
think from the way we're approaching the design at the

(20:39):
moment is trying to leverage a lot of these components
that we have in that design so that we're able
to kind of marry those two different technologies.

Speaker 7 (20:47):
As you know, we're developing one at the moment.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
So indulge my fantasy of imagination here. Theoretically, could I'm
talking another decade or beyond me, could you get down
to passenger cars?

Speaker 7 (21:04):
Well, yeah, I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (21:06):
And I think the other piece of this is, you know,
the technology is really good for long haul right where
you're uh. I think for for a lot of the
short you know, maybe for commuting or just short last
mile deliveries and whatnot, you're able to supplement those with
electric vehicles or other you know, emission uh less vehicles.

(21:31):
But I think for long haul trucking or long haul
you know, railroad or locomotive travel, I don't think there's
there's there's a solution space for that, and I think
that's that's our focus at the moment is how how
do we address that piece where there's a lot of
CO two that's being admitted, there's a lot of emissions

(21:52):
there as well as how do we clean those up?

Speaker 7 (21:54):
Uh, and how do we provide a solution to that problem.

Speaker 6 (21:58):
I think the other you know, passengers, cars are last
mile those those are something that we haven't really thought about,
so I mean it's part.

Speaker 5 (22:05):
Of it, though.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
I mean, the the volume of CO two that you
generate with the locomotive is sufficient that it has economic value,
and it would seem to me that even even a
semi truck might not generate a sufficient amount whereby it
would make financial sense for the trucking company to say, yeah,
we want one of these because we can sell. But

(22:26):
I mean, if you're selling you know, a small volume
of CO two, it's.

Speaker 6 (22:29):
Like yeah, I mean, I think for the for the
semi truck application, I think if you have a lot
of these in your fleet, you know you could you know,
you know you're talking about for you know, a let's
say six number gallon uh long you know, long haul
trip that's about twelve hundred twelve thousand pounds twelve thousand

(22:49):
kilograms of CO two you're generating in that trip, So it's.

Speaker 7 (22:54):
It's not nothing.

Speaker 6 (22:55):
So I think if you're able to couple those up,
and you know.

Speaker 7 (23:00):
If you have a large fleet owner, I think, so.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
You go to a depot and you have a volume
that would be sufficient, that would be valuable to someone.

Speaker 6 (23:08):
So I think the you know, like I mentioned, like
right now, I think we're one of our mantras and
the engineering team, you know, we're a small team, is
really focusing on, you know what, what's what's priority, right,
keep the main thing, the main thing, And at the
moment it's our our locomotive deployment that we're doing at
our backyard, our parking lot. So but I think, yeah,

(23:30):
the but the economics pieces is something that's pretty front
of mind for our executive team and figuring that out
with our coast.

Speaker 5 (23:35):
There's been a little said about the catalyst itself.

Speaker 8 (23:38):
Are you guys locking down the IP on that before
we talk about that and how's that coming along?

Speaker 6 (23:45):
I guess you know, we're working on it and and.

Speaker 8 (23:48):
And so far right now it's really only for diesel, correct,
And because I'm imagining because some of the solutions to
lowering carbon for big things, you know, natural gas or whatever,
you still a lot c O.

Speaker 5 (24:00):
Two. This isn't gonna really help clean those up.

Speaker 8 (24:06):
And and what about what about even bigger things like ships,
whereas bunker oil and now that it's not there's no
such thing as sulfur free bunker oil, right.

Speaker 6 (24:16):
I mean, so I think for you know, other applications,
and you know, and and and you know, how do
we think about those? Yeah, going back to what I
was saying about, how do we make this modular and
and the other pieces, how do we make this you know,
scalable as well?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Right?

Speaker 6 (24:31):
So, I think there's a lot of different technologies or
different applications that we can go into. But I think
some of the problems with going really big as you
end up having it be kind of a construction project
rather than it being a manufacturing Uh so you're talking
about building one offs all the time, and you won't

(24:51):
really have the chance to leverage your designs. So our
focus at the moment is how do we make this
modular and mobile? Because there's a lot of these mobile
applications or other applications that we can essentially mass produce
these systems for right. So I think that's kind of
our thought processes. We don't want to go chasing some
of these bigger and badder things because it ends up

(25:14):
being kind of one offs, really long lead times or
construction projects that don't And.

Speaker 8 (25:19):
With that thirty estimate you had before for the locomotives,
hold for semis because that's now you know, that's eaten
into what we're here in.

Speaker 6 (25:30):
Yeah, I think the Yeah, I would say for that,
there's still.

Speaker 7 (25:35):
More work to be done, and I can I won't
comment on that. I guess.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
So how many locomotives are there out there right now
that could use this? I mean if if you guys
were thousands.

Speaker 6 (25:48):
I haven't checked where you know, where the latest count is,
but there's there's quite a large market for this. If
you think about, you know, who's the largest fuel burning
entities in the US. I think outside of the army,
I think it's locomotive industry. So they're burning. Yeah, there's

(26:09):
there's a lot of field being burned to move right around,
So there's there's there's quite a lot of opportunity.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, what got you into this? I'm curious. I mean,
some tell us the story.

Speaker 6 (26:21):
Yeah, so you know Ramara was founded in twenty twenty one. My,
you know, I had some connections with the co founders,
but I think one of the things that I was
itching for, as you know, I've always had a very
hardware background where I like to see the things that
I'm working on and feel the things out. And my
I think I mentioned this se you last time we met.

(26:41):
In my collegiate time, I worked on hybrid racing. So,
you know, just being able to not you know, my
background is electrical engineering and computer engineering, but I'd like
to see the things that I'm working on, even though
it might be software very small hardware. So but yeah,
I think just being able to work on a project
like this that's very difficult. But also you know, solving

(27:03):
some some some of our you know, current issues was
was very interesting. And you know, having it be you
know done back here, which is Michigan's where I grew up,
was was very intriguing for me.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
So so, okay, you know web Tech in progress Rail,
which are the two big locomotive manufacturers in the country.
You know, the web Tech offers flex drive and progress
Rail has E. M. D.

Speaker 7 (27:27):
Jewel.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
So a why didn't you go with one of those
guys giving your electrical engineering background and b why is
the Remora approach perhaps better than going with one of
those locomotives.

Speaker 6 (27:44):
Yeah, so like myself, going to web tech is what
you're mentioning.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Well worked or progress rail. Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 6 (27:50):
Mean my you know, my background is originally was working
in embedded systems for five G software. But yeah, essentially
I'm always chasing kind of the hard problems and I
think this was interesting for me. But yeah, I think
just being able to one be able to lead a
team and work with you know, just diverse engineers is

(28:10):
very intriguing. And then being able to work in a
small team is you know, you're able to get done
a lot of stuff in a year. So I think
there's there's a lot of interest in just our team
and the knowledge there. But yeah, I think, like I mentioned,
I think i'd like to and we like to think
of our solution as just another solution set and all
the different technologies that people are building, and you know,

(28:32):
I think we have not only you know, the technology,
but I think the unit economics as well to make
it work. So I think that's what we're trying to
prove out by doing these pilots, doing these engineering builds
in our backyard, in our in our facilities.

Speaker 4 (28:46):
So yeah, we're good.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
We're gonna have to wrap up the segment of the show,
but yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Very interesting what you guys are doing. Yeah, we're gonna
definitely have to keep an eye on it. And just
so the audience knows, when he says, yeah, we got
a locomotive and parking lot, I drove by their place,
not knowing about Remora about a month ago and saw
a locomotive sitting in a parking lot and wondered, what
the heck is going on here? So when you mentioned

(29:10):
a parking lot, I want the audience to be here
and we have security.

Speaker 4 (29:16):
Real good.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
So thanks again. We're going to take a quick break.
We'll be back to talk to about news of the week.

Speaker 10 (29:24):
The automotive and industrial sectors are undergoing a historic transformation electrification, digitalization,
supply chain reinvention, regulatory shifts. The pace is accelerating and
the pressure to adapt is real. This is not a
time for hesitation. It's a time for bold decisions backed

(29:45):
by fast, effective execution. You need a partner who understands
complexity from factory floors to boardrooms, and delivers measurable results.
That partner is partners when it really matters.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
The automotive industry continues to evolve, and so do the
opportunities to define it.

Speaker 8 (30:11):
Ford Warner, one of the world's most admired companies, gets
its partners where they need to go.

Speaker 4 (30:16):
Let's do something big together.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
All right, we're back talk about things that have been
going on in the industry. I'm sure you got a
list there, Gary, I do.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
But I could quiz you guys.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
Oh, oh, quiz us.

Speaker 5 (30:32):
Here we go. All right.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
So this vehicle was introduced on October second, nineteen fifty nine,
keeping with the October second theme of being today, and
it was in production until nineteen sixty nine.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Oh, because I was My first guest was ed Soul.
But fifty nine to sixty nine, ten year run.

Speaker 4 (30:57):
Can you give us enough?

Speaker 5 (30:59):
It is? It is?

Speaker 3 (31:03):
It is not just some random vehicle.

Speaker 5 (31:05):
Like an International Scoltar. No, no, no, it's not, it's not.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
It's it's a It's a vehicle that even car people
would be aware of, not carr people.

Speaker 5 (31:17):
Fifty fifty.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Can you give us any other little oh, that's it's
gonna okay, that would get it away.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
It's gonna it's gonna be so easy. Robert Foster is correct.

Speaker 4 (31:30):
A corvet Wow.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Okay, And that was from the chat room. Robert Foster,
congrats bro Okay.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
What what what?

Speaker 3 (31:38):
What surprised me when I looked into this was the
fact that Ralph Nader's Unsafe at Any Speed was published
in nineteen sixty five. Took him a while, So I mean,
but I mean it took him, you know, it took
him a while for him to come to the conclusion
it was. It was a criticism of the rear suspension
that was the problem.

Speaker 5 (31:56):
Which sixty five was changed anyway, right and then.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
But and the thing is is that even with that
controversy about the vehicle that presumably the book generated, it
still had half of the life ahead of it.

Speaker 5 (32:12):
It was bizarre.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
But I want to I want to ask about something
that is that is not news of the week. That
that Frank in Motor Trend you had a very interesting
comparison of navigator, escalade and wagon ear. Yeah, that was fascinating.
And one of the points you made in there where
you were talking about the you know, you're talking about
the screens. All of them have ginormous screens inside them,

(32:34):
and you were saying something about how you're wondering if
a decade from now, whether the hardware is going to
be sufficient to deal with the software.

Speaker 4 (32:42):
Talk a little bit about that.

Speaker 8 (32:44):
I mean, you know screens at home, right, I mean
they were one twenty was great. You know, seven twenty
started out and it was and that it's four thousand
dollars eight k coming and whatever. You know, whatever you
build into a car is going to be obsolete in
a little while.

Speaker 5 (32:58):
So there's there's that.

Speaker 8 (33:00):
There's also the fact that you know, it's hard to
find anything to watch on that. You know, that second screen.
You know, if the person's going to watch, the driver
can't see it. It's it's antisocial. I don't know why
you want that. That's why I liked the Lincoln one.
All the informations up there everyone can look at is
weather and you know, fuel economy and so on. Yeah,

(33:21):
that was my favorite of the big screens.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Yeah, I thought it's great to say. So what I mean,
give us your impressions of these.

Speaker 8 (33:30):
Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, Navigator started that whole thing,
but Escalade kind of you know, perfected it, and there's
still hard to argue with.

Speaker 5 (33:43):
I mean, power doors.

Speaker 8 (33:46):
You know, the V eight was the slowest practically one there,
but it just sounds so much better. And you know
it's only the slowest if your foot's on the floor,
which I mean, how many times have you put your foot.

Speaker 5 (33:57):
On the floor.

Speaker 4 (33:58):
You know, it's a really good point.

Speaker 8 (34:00):
In a powerful car anyway, no one, you know, So anyway,
I mean the wagoneer nicest riding car there, you know,
far and away. I think it rides better than a Culumn.
You know, I had them back to back once a
while ago. So yeah, but Nostagier, you know, the Lincoln
and the Escale when you open the door, they really wow.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
You in there.

Speaker 8 (34:24):
Yeah, and the Jeep's a little more stayed in the
it's look, it's beautiful, perfectly executed, no chinzy stuff, even
down on the low on the door and whatever.

Speaker 5 (34:33):
The other one's kind of but yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
You know, one thing occurred to me was that, Okay,
so you have the Escalade from Cadillac, which is General
Motors Luxury division, right, you have the Navigator from Lincoln,
which is which is Ford's. But you have the Wagon
here from Jeep.

Speaker 5 (34:50):
Well, it's kind of from jeep.

Speaker 8 (34:52):
You got to struggle to find the word out there.
They were going to try and make that their upscale brand, right,
I think they've kind of backed off of that didn't
work now.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
But why isn't it Rysler? I mean Chrysler basically has
the pacifica.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, because the Jeep brand has got a whole lot
more panache, especially at the upper level, than the Chrysler
brand does today.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
I think I think that Stilantis is missing something here.
I think that people who buy Jeeps are not saying
I'm buying luxury. Okay that if you were to have
something bring back the Aspen name, perhaps.

Speaker 8 (35:26):
But it was the You have to remember that it
was far and away the most luxurious thing Chrysler Jeep
AMC sold at the last time the wagon air was around, remember,
I mean they charge a lot more for it.

Speaker 5 (35:41):
It made a lot more money on it.

Speaker 8 (35:42):
I mean that was So they're just trying to look
hark back to those days.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
But who remembers that besides old female I know, and
they don't need them to all of those that's not
the so so Okay, yesterday September thirtieth, the seventy No,
yesterday's the first, so day before yesterday, seventy five.

Speaker 5 (36:03):
Hundred dollars went away.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
Earlier this week, Ford hosted an event at Michigan Central
Accelerate which was about the essential economy, meaning people who
work with their hands and do things that are essential
to keeping the lights on and building cars and tool
and die and so on and so forth, and Farley
mentioned about how he thought we don't need seventy five hundred,

(36:30):
seventy five thousand dollars electric vehicles, nobody wants them, that
it's all about smaller commuter city vehicles, and that he
thinks that the size of market for evs could go
down to five percent like that, What do you guys think?

Speaker 5 (36:48):
And Slate get a big bunch.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Of it, right, yeah, right, yeah, No, I think Farley's right.
I think we're going to see a big drop in
EV sales right now. We've seen that happen in other
countries that yank their EV subsidies. I will point out,
though very interestingly, Germany slowly phased out AT subsidies throughout
twenty twenty three, chopped them all off. At the end,

(37:12):
EV sales took a pretty big nose dive. They didn't
fall by half, but they fell by a quarter. And
you're to date right now, twenty twenty five, they're almost
back to where they were before the incentives were yanked.
So why because more evs came out, lower priced evs
came out, the infrastructure got better.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
I think we could see the same thing happen here.

Speaker 8 (37:37):
I think the zeitgeys, though there is completely different too.
Though you know, there's no make Germany great again, no
weird you know anti EV sentiment that we.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
They have not been pulled aside, right, that's right, that's right.
But you know, look, good products solves every problem in
the auto industry. And if you come out with an
affordable EV with a good range, I think you're going
to get more and more people to start buying them.
But I'm no Polyann on this. I don't see EV

(38:07):
sales coming back to where they are right now. I
think they finished last month at a twelve percent market share.
You know, by the end of this decade, including peebs,
the experts I've talked to you say they could go
to twenty percent, but it's going to take years to
claw back up to that level.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
So I mean, one of the things that I was
wondering about when I was looking when I was looking
at the sales numbers, so one one for Ford and
one for General Motors, which which sort of struck me.

Speaker 4 (38:38):
So y're to date.

Speaker 3 (38:40):
For Ford, the total number of electrified vehicles, so this
means they're evs as well as their hybrids, was two
hundred forty two two hundred and ninety eight vehicles. Camery alone,
which is a hybrid only vehicle, was two hundred and
thirty four three hundred and sixty nine. So it was
a difference about eight thousand vehicles that Camri was, so

(39:02):
all of Ford in Camri.

Speaker 5 (39:06):
I mean, so, and.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
It's a sedan, right, Nobody buys sedan's do they? Oh
wait a minute, A whole lot of people do so.
I mean, Frank, do you think the Toyota powertrain strategy
makes a little bit more sense? I mean, and has
made more sense going forward?

Speaker 8 (39:22):
You know, hard to argue against that in the face
of everything you know right now, that's for sure.

Speaker 5 (39:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Look, I think Toyota they bet heavy on hybrids. They've
been backing it to the hilt, certainly in the marketplace
right now outside of China, and maybe even China to
a degree. Uh, a hybrid heavy strategy is a really
good strategy to have.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
So another thing that I thought about is, Okay, now
we'll go to General Motors. So you're to date, they've
sold one hundred and forty four thousand, six hundred and
sixty eight electric vehicles okay, in the in the US.
So then I looked at the sales of the Tahoe
in the Yukon, Okay. So you combined them and they
sold one hundred and fifty four thousand, So they sold

(40:16):
a lot more. Now, as we well know, the margins
on things like Tahoe and Yukon are pretty substantial, some.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
Of the best in the business.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
So if you're making and selling more of these two
things versus all of the you know, the full suite
of you know, from from Blazer evs to the Optique
from Cattle, it's it's like, isn't it, General Motors fiduciary
responsibility to make more Tahoes and Yukons and fewer electric.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Vehicles depends where you want to take your company in
the future. I mean, I would argue that electric is
the future. I believe we're going to get there because
you're going to see the cost of internal combustion engine
power trains only go up. You know, we talked about
Tier four criteria emissions. The industry is still not there yet.

(41:12):
It's probably going to have to go to gasoline or
particulate filters to be able to get there. There's even
talk that maybe they're going.

Speaker 5 (41:20):
To have to go with.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Heated catalysts, you know, to prevent cold start emissions, which
is where the most emissions come out. And interestingly enough,
while the Trump administration has eviscerated anything to do with evs,
it has not touched Tier four criteria emissions. So the
industry is going to be putting more cost into EV

(41:46):
into ICE. At the same time, we're still continuing to
see improvements made in BEVs costs coming out of them.
And you know, the point's going to cross. We're very
close to it in the West market, where it's going
to be cheaper to make an EV than it is
to make an internal combustion powertrain vehicle. And so for

(42:10):
big vehicles that tower haul far least, right, you know,
you got to put a massive battery in there. It's
really hard to pencil the numbers. But in anything that's
you know, for every day commuting or running around with
not a long trips. Evs are only going to make
more and more sense.

Speaker 7 (42:26):
To more and more customers.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
It's the future.

Speaker 5 (42:29):
Sure seems that way.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
That evs are the future. And when is the future?

Speaker 5 (42:36):
That's a sliding scale, isn't it.

Speaker 8 (42:40):
I mean, I will tell you that at the IAA
a couple of weeks ago. Horse power Train, you know,
this new outfit to sell range extenders and that sort
of thing, big splash, a whole bunch of they got
an engine is like a briefcase size.

Speaker 5 (42:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Horse is a spin off that Renault started. They put
all their power ice power train into Horse. Gili said,
we're interested. Volva was the first part of Gil to
be involved in. Fact, we're going to have a guy
from Horse on the show in two weeks. And they've
got an office here in Detroit and they tell me

(43:18):
people are knocking on their doors here in Detroit saying
they're interested in that.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
Well, speaking of Germany, in the show last week, we
talked about this a little bit, and so ZF has
announced that it is going to be laying off fourteen
thousand people by twenty thirty.

Speaker 5 (43:33):
Today they basically.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Announced where seventy nine hundred of these people are coming
from that's from their Electric five Powertrain Technology division. And
this is a quote from their announcement. Development activities in
the product groups including onboard chargers, dec converters, and electric
beam axles eBeam will be discontinued, while the development of

(43:55):
innovative products such as thermos, the ZF thermal management system,
or the eight hp EVO plug in hybrid transmission will
be consistently driven forward. So basically the E being axle
which consists of a motor and an inverter and a
drive system. So basically, plug this into your pickup truck
and you've got an ev gone gone. And you know

(44:19):
this this thermal management system, which is basically to manage
the temperatures of electrical systems to make them more efficient,
that'll stay. But they're really counting on this EVO transmission,
which is for hybrids. And they point out, you.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
Don't need a plug.

Speaker 5 (44:38):
It's better than it's it's.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
Lighter and cheaper than a plug in hybrid transmission.

Speaker 5 (44:48):
Yeah, well, you know.

Speaker 8 (44:50):
The transmission doesn't care if there's a big battery of
small right, So I don't know where they mean by that.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
But well, there's there's talk about the transmission itself. So
if you have a p have set.

Speaker 8 (44:59):
Up, I suppose the pe have would have a bigger
electric motor to make it drive, you know.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Right, Yeah, here's the problem is that too many suppliers
jumped in with one of these eBeam axles. You know,
ZEV has got one, American axle Well showed one, Magna
showed one. I think Dana showed one, and you know,
they were all hoping to get the business right. And
I don't know if any of the auto makers have

(45:26):
have sourced that. Maybe they have, but uh yeah, look
the definitely in the US right now with the current administration,
it's yanking anything it can do that will prevent evs
from being adopted. They're not growing as fast as was

(45:48):
thought would be the case in Europe, even though I
mentioned in certain countries like Germany, Denmark and the like,
EV sales are quite strong. But throughout the continent, I
think they're running at about fifteen or sixteen percent market share,
so you know, probably roughly double US, but still not enough.

(46:08):
But I say, I.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
Still say give it time.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
The days of the ice market segment are only going
to I should say the market segment for ice is
only going to shrink. That for BEV is going to grow.

Speaker 8 (46:24):
And didn't I just hear aren't we have like one
twenty for KILLO what hour? I think right now, because
for a long time they said that at one hundred
dollars it's about parody and if you get much below that,
it's you know.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
It's got yeah, right, And it depends are you talking
about the cost of the cell or you're talking about
the pack, So we should talk packs cost because that's
the real thing. Yeah, I think we're very close to
one hundred dollars per kill A what hour.

Speaker 4 (46:50):
But the newest numbers i'm.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Hearing is it's really got to be sixty to seventy.

Speaker 5 (46:56):
Dollars for customers.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Well I'm talking, Uh that'tant Yeah, Sean Sean saying is
it to the customer or to the uh the automaker?

Speaker 5 (47:10):
Uh?

Speaker 7 (47:12):
Yeah, the smaller number is for customer.

Speaker 4 (47:15):
And no the other way around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (47:19):
Smaller number am bigger number. Yeah, like.

Speaker 7 (47:23):
I think is where it starts reaching.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Anyway, the power train experts I've talked to have said,
before this decade is out, we will have crossed this
point in the United States, where it's cheaper to make
a BEV than a nice vehicle, And.

Speaker 8 (47:39):
You keep seeing the new little incremental changes, like there's
one now, uh, electrode to pack, right, Yeah, this is
a new thing. We're going to just vacuum pack the
two electrodes and with a little electronim between them, and
you stack those in there, and now you've you know,
the energy density is improved and whatever.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Well, you know, the fastest way to take the cost
out of above is use a smaller battery. And so
there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on on
total systems approach of making a vehicle more efficient. And
I saw a presentation recently where one of the suggestions
is putting carbon nanotubes embedded in the wind shield so

(48:18):
that you can use a fraction of the energy to
de ice or defog the windshield. And instead of heating
the entire passenger cabin, you just have these microjets that
are blowing warm air on the passengers and the arm
rests will radiate heat. So again you can downsize the
battery and every increment, I mean, you can say thousands

(48:40):
of dollars a cost out of a battery just by
making it smaller.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
But imagine the cost of replacing that windshield.

Speaker 4 (48:47):
Well, that's a big problem.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
Flight will just become the most valuable company on Earth.

Speaker 4 (48:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
All that at ass stuff mounted behind it has already
sent the price of windshield replacement up dramatically.

Speaker 5 (49:00):
Yeah. So, okay. The car companies all did fairly well.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
I mean, even Stilantes broke its losing streak of in
the third quarter by actually having a positive result six percent.
What do you guys think accounts.

Speaker 5 (49:19):
For the overall.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Sales that these companies have, especially since they you know,
we've talked a lot on the show about the affordability crisis,
and according to cloud theory, today's average price of a
vehicle is fifty grand.

Speaker 4 (49:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Well, I mean part of what drove good sales last
month was a mad rush to buy evs. Sales shot
up more than twenty percent. As we talked about, they
hit over twelve percent market share. They had been down
around eight percent, so and there was like, well over

(50:00):
I want to say, four hundred and fifty four hundred
and thirty thousand, over four hundred thousand evs sold just
last month. I mean, it was a banner month, and
I think that had a lot to do with it.

Speaker 5 (50:14):
What do you think, Frank, I'm with you there.

Speaker 8 (50:16):
I mean, I think we're going to see you just
as I would like to know if the German when
those numbers, how much of that was inflated before then?

Speaker 5 (50:25):
They had a longer ramp.

Speaker 8 (50:26):
Down they did Oka there, so it might not have
had the same situation, but right right it was.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
It was.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
It went down in phases over the course of a year,
so you didn't have a mad rush like we just
did here. And it'll be interesting, you know, GM and
Ford pulled a really slick move. Their dealers have got
all these evs in inventory, right, and they want to
be able to get the seventy five hundred dollars. So literally,

(50:56):
last minute, GM Financial and Ford Credit, which is there
in house finance arms, ran out and made deposits on
every one of those.

Speaker 5 (51:07):
Ev How many do you suppose it is?

Speaker 2 (51:09):
I don't know, but it is How long.

Speaker 5 (51:12):
Will it tay?

Speaker 8 (51:12):
What?

Speaker 5 (51:12):
How many days apply? You know? When is the seventy
five hundred really run out for all of those cars? Yeah?
So there are those cars all going to be demos?

Speaker 8 (51:19):
Now?

Speaker 5 (51:20):
Are they all have an in service date with a warranty?
Starting when that.

Speaker 4 (51:24):
That's a really good question that I don't know.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
But all I do know is that you know, jam
and Ford said they cleared this with the irs, and
so now dealers can offer a lease with that seventy
five hundred dollars discount baked into it for everything.

Speaker 5 (51:40):
That's also for sales too, write.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
I don't know why this does not apply.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
To a sale.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Well, a sale is a sale, right and if the
sale happens after the incentives expired, you know, sorry Charlie,
but if you come in to do a lease on
an EV right now, which I argue was the best
way to do it anyway, because in three years there's
going to be better EV's.

Speaker 4 (52:03):
On the market.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
So you can go get a lease right now from
GM and Ford. Uh, for an EV that's got the
seventy five hundred dollars baked into it.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
So what does this do?

Speaker 3 (52:14):
Okay, So let's say it's a mocke and it's the
mache that they have on the lot, which I'm sure
they fill lots of them in the last few days.

Speaker 4 (52:23):
But what does this.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
Do to the new mock ease that get shipped into
the dealership to somebody saytan, no, no, No, I don't
want one of those.

Speaker 5 (52:34):
I want one of.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Those that's seventy.

Speaker 4 (52:35):
I want the old one keeper.

Speaker 8 (52:37):
So I mean they're gonna have to do something. I
mean the Ion like five just had discounts applied to
it in the six to nine thousand dollars range.

Speaker 4 (52:47):
I think, huge, huge cuts.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
So yeah, I mean with the new Machi, they're gonna
have to do something, whether you put more standard equipment
on you know that had been optional, or you've got
some sort of finance deal.

Speaker 4 (53:02):
There's going to be deals.

Speaker 8 (53:04):
Sweetened it up somehow to where you got to have
this one now, you.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
Know that's right, special color probably more than color.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Right.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
So what else did we have happening in this industry
this week?

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Well, I'll tell you one thing, and I'd like to
get your opinion on this. Frank, I've been very bullish
on e revs. And you know, because if you're worried
about range anxiety, don't worry. It's got a gasoline engine.
You fill it up, it's going to charge the battery.
You keep on going. If you want to drive on electricity,
plug it in every night, you can drive seventy miles

(53:42):
or thereabouts. And I thought for the American market with
big pickups and big SUVs and towing and all that,
and e REV seems to make all the sense in the.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
World where you're just buy a top right.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
But now I'm starting to hear that maybe e revs
are not well suited for the American market, that in
China they're doing very well. In China, that segment is
growing very very quickly. That you know, if you're in
a smaller vehicle and you're not driving long distances at

(54:17):
seventy to eighty miles an hour, an e REV can
be perfect. And I'm told that the erevs in China
you could barely hear the engine. You don't hear it start,
you don't hear it running. Whereas if you're going to
have an e REV, let's say a pickup pulling a
trailer going up a grade, that engine's going at max

(54:40):
power and it's going to keep on running even when
you back off the throttle pedal or if you put
your foot back, it's still going to be at the
same rpm. So you're going to have this this drone
that's going to be tamped down and maybe noise cancel
canceled to make it quiet, but you're going to hear
this running in the background, and it's got no really
to what your your right foot's doing on the throat.

Speaker 8 (55:02):
And so was everyone's complaint with the CVTs early on, right,
the motor boating or whatever, right, So yeah, I mean
that's and I haven't been in one to see, you know,
how quiet did they get that right or whatever you know,
hooked up to that thing?

Speaker 2 (55:19):
I don't know, because I've talked to people who have
driven the e revs, or the reeves as they call
them in China, the extendard range ones, and they go, oh,
my gosh, it's so quiet, it's so well done. But
I've talked to others doing development work here and they're like,
I don't know if our customer is going to go
for this.

Speaker 3 (55:36):
So do you think the Chinese vehicles are as loud
as the ones that are being developed here?

Speaker 5 (55:41):
Yet they're not.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
It's it's the duty cycle, it's the size of the vehicle. So,
like you know, Stalantis has said they're going to come
out with an e REV even though it's been pushed
back a year, and I wouldn't be surprised if it
gets pushed back again with a naturally aspirated three point
six lead V six, whereas in China they're using one

(56:04):
and a half liter turbos.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
But these are in sedans versus galantists putting it.

Speaker 4 (56:09):
In a full size pickup.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah, the Chinese applications are in passenger sedans.

Speaker 5 (56:18):
And that horsepower thing is this big.

Speaker 4 (56:21):
That horse has.

Speaker 5 (56:22):
A four cylinder, not a three cylinder. Yeah, you know,
it's probably be a little smoother than that, would.

Speaker 8 (56:27):
I bet that, And that they made it so that
it will fit, you know, where under your front or whatever.
If you have an electric car ready to go and
you're like, you know, pulling the rip cord on that idea,
this will go right in the same spot and then
it's out of the way and it's isolated and so on.

Speaker 4 (56:45):
You know.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
You know, the Nissan area was an e REV in Japan,
or it was offered as an E REV in Japan,
you know, extended range, and it was my understanding, you know,
suggested that the American arm of Nissan could take it,
and they were, yeah, no thanks. You drive these things

(57:08):
at seventy eighty miles an hour. The batteries depleted, that
things running all the time.

Speaker 7 (57:13):
It's making too much noise.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
So I so.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
You're you're you're souring on eros.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Well what I'm what I'm realizing now as I learn
more about them is from a duty cycle standpoint, in
full size trucks and SUVs, the way Americans drive, it
may not.

Speaker 5 (57:33):
Be the solution.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
So I've got to ask, is autonomy over as well?

Speaker 4 (57:38):
No, Autonomy's not over.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
This is the year of autonomy, according to John.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Yeah, because we're seeing rapid global expansion of robotaxi service,
and global is the key word. And it's happening in
the US, it's happening in the Middle East, it's happening
in China and a few other countries too, and.

Speaker 4 (57:58):
It's it's only ways trying to No, I have not
I'm dying.

Speaker 8 (58:02):
I went to Austin and we tried to do a race,
you know, between a Tesla robot taxi and a Weimo.
He couldn't never get them to come at the same time. Well,
we didn't realize is that the weymos are not allowed
on the highway yet. So if you pick a route
that would be best served by a highway, they wouldn't
send you one of those. And we were trying to
utilize that whole you know, like you know, a fifteen

(58:24):
minute ride up up the whole you know, service area,
and so we never got one anyway, big difference in
the two of those.

Speaker 5 (58:33):
Well, there were a lot.

Speaker 8 (58:34):
Of glitches with the road taxi, which still has a
guy riding shotgun.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
This is the Tesla car.

Speaker 8 (58:42):
Yeah, that's it's just amount of why that's a little
bit of extra stuff on it, not much, but it
was smoother it. You know, what was striking and startlaying
is that weimo with a zillion lighters and stuff all along.

Speaker 5 (58:56):
It knows where everything is all.

Speaker 8 (58:57):
The time, so it'll whip up and stop and go
faster than you would because you'd be like, I look
this way, and when I was looking this way, did
they come up? You want to look both ways a
couple of times. Whatever, this thing already knows, so there's
runs right out there.

Speaker 5 (59:12):
You know.

Speaker 8 (59:12):
It was pretty impressive and not as smooth as the
Tesla for some reason.

Speaker 4 (59:17):
But calibration, calibration, calibration.

Speaker 8 (59:20):
Yeah, but maybe that wasn't their number one worry with
that thing.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
So you know, I read something this week that you know,
there's there's an issue about what happens for a moving
violation right, there's that U turn right, so that hasn't
been worked out yet.

Speaker 5 (59:41):
No, so and this is.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
For my question though, is the U turn that that
weimo pulled? Did it interrupt traffic? Did it interrupt pedestrians?
Was it just an innocuous U turn? And did the
cops go we're gonna pull that guy over or you know?

Speaker 7 (59:58):
I'd like to.

Speaker 8 (59:59):
Know me posted because I mean, it's unless it's forbidden.
I think in a lot of cases it's illegal. It
is legal, So I yeah, I don't know what the
situation was down there.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
It to me, if it didn't interfere with traffic or
pedestrians or anything, it's it's kind of a big deal.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Okay, But what if you were driving that vehicle?

Speaker 4 (01:00:18):
Yeah, guys like.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
Here you go.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Yeah, ticket, I'd say, officer number one, I I it depends.
Look if I cut somebody off, it's like, yeah, I
deserve a ticket.

Speaker 4 (01:00:31):
If I wasn't aware that U turn was not uh legal?
And if I didn't, what.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
About ignorance not being a use.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
I'll tell you because I've had some recent experience with this.
If a cops having a bad day, they're out looking
for things to pull people over for I'm sorry, that's
just human nature.

Speaker 5 (01:00:51):
It's true.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
And so was this guy having a bad day and going,
I'm going after that car.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
So isn't this putting it like a slight reduction in
the possibility of this being the year of autonomous.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Because I'm sure what WEIMO did. They went into their
algorithms and said, don't do you turn?

Speaker 8 (01:01:12):
And there is no nobody doesn't know that's a WEIMO.
Nobody doesn't know that's an autonomous car.

Speaker 5 (01:01:18):
So they must have wanted to pull over an autonomous
car or try to or whatever. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Yeah, look, if the cops suspect anything in a car,
they'll look for any reason to pull it over, you know,
so that they have, you know, cause but and then
maybe yeah, you're right, you know, with all.

Speaker 7 (01:01:35):
The whizzing things on it, you know.

Speaker 8 (01:01:37):
The Tesla's by contrast, no, I mean they just say
ROMOTAXI kind of you know, quietly on the door.

Speaker 5 (01:01:45):
You wouldn't know that that wasn't So.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
What was the guy doing who was in the car?

Speaker 8 (01:01:49):
He was there, as we noticed when one of them
started to make a left turn into a restaurant and
stopped and just like kind of went open.

Speaker 5 (01:01:59):
Loop from him it. He hopped out and went around
and got in.

Speaker 8 (01:02:01):
The car finished he was kind of blocking traffic a
little bit. So that's what they're there for, and to
you know, they can force it to stop and.

Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
Pull over with a push of a button.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:02:14):
Yeah, it's that kind of thing.

Speaker 8 (01:02:16):
We're not supposed to talk. They're not supposed to talk
to the people in the back seat.

Speaker 5 (01:02:19):
Really.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
But you never got the motor trend race between.

Speaker 8 (01:02:23):
No, we weren't able to go in the same place
at the same time on this one, but we got
enough rides in the two of them to kind of
assess them, and we came back saying, yeah, that Waimo
is got a stronger, brighter future.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
So you personally, would you use robotax? Yeah in the future.

Speaker 8 (01:02:42):
Yeah, And I think you the people I've talked to
that live in the areas where these are going, they're like, yeah,
it's novel the first few times, but after that, you know,
you're you're just looking at your phone, You're not paying
any attention, just like you wouldn't if somebody was driving.

Speaker 5 (01:02:55):
You know, it becomes second nature.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Were good, So, oh, you got anything else burning or nope, Okay,
we're going to wrap it up then, Frank Marcus, great
to have you back on Always. Yeah, No, this is
really good Gary Always having a lot of fun with
you and I hope all of you enjoyed having tuned in.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
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