AAH #763 - Scaringe Talks, Tesla Strips, Cars Compete

TOPIC: Rivian, Tesla and More PANEL: Jeff Gilbert, WWJ NewsRadio 950; Mark Phelan, Detroit Free Press; Greg Migliore, VerticalScope; Gary Vasilash, shinymetalboxes.net

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:22):
Eybuddy, thanks for joining us for the show. For those
of your watchings, you're saying, there's no John, and for
those of you who are listening, you don't know there's
no John. And as I say, when there's no John,
I bring the smartest people I know in the auto industry.
And you're beginning to think, you know he says it
every time. I'm blessed that I know very smart people.

(00:43):
So I know lots of them. So that's why we
bring them to you. So we've got Jeff Gilbert, welcome back.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
To the show.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
WWJ Auto Beat Reporter for a little while, right, a.

Speaker 4 (00:55):
Little while, about twenty five years on the Auto Bet,
about thirty five years.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
At the station, so great place.

Speaker 5 (01:02):
Old.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
In other words, we've got young Greg mcglory here, Welcome back.

Speaker 4 (01:08):
Greg.

Speaker 6 (01:09):
I like to go buy geriatric millennial. That's what they
call my generation.

Speaker 4 (01:14):
Really see, I call myself a digital native senior citizens.
So okay, wow, and.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
We've got Mark Feelin from the Free Press.

Speaker 5 (01:23):
Just glad that I remember the way to get here.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
All right. So we're going to talk about a lot
of stuff on today's show, including the cars that are
in trucks and utilities nominated for Natty, which we'll get
to later. But it just so happened that all four
of us this week we're at Rivian's facility in Plymouth, Michigan,
which I think is a great coincidence. And we all

(01:48):
heard r J scringe hold forth, and I've got to say,
this is the first time I've ever heard him talk live,
and he impressed my out of me.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
But did you hear them refer to him as the
anti Elon anti Elon? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:04):
And I thought that was interesting. And the thing that
was astonished me was he said that when he was
ten years old, you know, a teacher asked him what
he wanted to do when he grew up, and he said,
start a car company. And he said that he started
the car company the day after he stopped or finished
his graduate studies. You know, the man's got a PhD
from MIT and mechanical Engineering. I mean, he's just like Wow,

(02:27):
So was was was? I just sucked into his reality
distortion zone as used to be called with regarded Steve Jobs,
and was impressed by the man.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
Or first realized we all went to some sort of
journalism schools, so our standards for being impressed are fairly low. OK.
So you know, to begin that, as as Mark said earlier,
anybody who can do math could impress us. But no,
I mean you take a look at somebody like that
seriously and think not only did have they drive, but

(03:00):
they actually did it. You know, you can have the
drive and you can want to do it, but to
actually figure out how can I make my dream come true?
You know, nobody knows at this point whether his company
is going to be successful or not. I think most
people put it like right behind Tesla in terms of
the pecking order of EV startups. They've done very good.

(03:23):
But just the mere fact that he has gotten this
far is extremely impressive.

Speaker 6 (03:27):
I think he definitely has a vision not just for
like how he wants to make cars, but also what
he wants his company to be. Like I thought half
the presentation he kept circling back to like software defined vehicles,
software defined architecture, and he sort of said without saying that,
I think he wants that to be a huge part

(03:48):
of the company, maybe at some point even the centerpiece
that just is And I think that makes some sense,
like maybe Rivian they'll make cars, but they'll also be
this kind of like authority for techechnology, which could give
them a lot of staying power. So I like this vision.
I was, I was kind of buying what he was selling.

Speaker 5 (04:07):
Yeah, I've seen him once before, and I mean he's smart,
he's persistent, and he doesn't try to be all things
to all people. You know, he's perfectly happy saying this
is what we're going to build. If you don't particularly
care for touch screens, somebody will build a vehicle that
gives you other choices, as came up in one of
the discussions. Well, and and he sticks to the vision.

(04:31):
I mean they've run into, you know, a lot of challenges,
but you know he's still you know, you know, staying
with what he was planning to do a few years ago.
You know, the Georgia plant has been delayed, but he's
put together a good bridge plan to get him to
when they need that, they still plan to do that.
I thought it was a good presentation. I've always found

(04:52):
him to be, like I said, you know, smart and consistent.

Speaker 4 (04:55):
We joked about the anti Elon right, but when you
take a look at what we from people, you hear
from Elon Musk, you hear a lot of theory, a
lot of really interesting things, a lot of wild things.
And then when you realize, yeah, well we're not doing
going to get to that, or maybe we could later.
But when you get to your right now, your standard

(05:15):
auto executive, well you get to set your standard auto executive.
You also get to somebody who is very heavily packaged
and tries very hard not to say anything about anything
because they don't want to make any kind of negative
news to move the stock market. Here we sat for
an hour where somebody really gave us candid answers, gave

(05:38):
us his honest opinion. And it wasn't necessarily wilder out there.
It was just, oh, this is what the guy is
all about. So it you know, I hate to say
that honesty seems to be something different these days, but
in that particular case, I think that's what made it
so refreshing.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
You know, and I think that you know. One of
the things that was propitious in terms of timing was
it was after September thirtieth, after the seventy five hundred
dollars tax credits went away, and our colleague Joanne Muller
was trying to get him to say, well, things are
not so good right now for electric vehicles because of
the tax credit going away, and he seemed nonplus by

(06:16):
the whole thing, and he just seemed to be basic
in one of the things that he said on more
than one occasion, which I thought was interesting. If you
have a compelling car, people will buy it, and it
doesn't matter if it's an ev or an ice vehicle.
If it's compelling, it's got promise in the market.

Speaker 5 (06:34):
And when he was talking about his competitors, he didn't
limit it just to other electric vehicles, other vehicles of
the same size and price range. Now he's got a
consistent worldview.

Speaker 4 (06:45):
But the other question about the seventy five hundred dollars
tax credit, if you look at Rivian's vehicles, very expensive,
so I would imagine very few of them. And we
also take into account the limits on somebody's income to
get the tax credits. I'd like to see how many
ribbans were actually sold with a seventy five hundred dollars

(07:06):
tax credit, because the price of the vehicle and the
income of the buyer would would make that a fairly
small amount, I would think.

Speaker 6 (07:13):
I think also like he's probably like literally every other
you know, a mode of executive whether it's good or
it's bad. He just wants consistency. And now that the
tax credit's gone, and that's the rules everybody has to
play with. And I think that was a message I
kind of got from him, was he was like, well, hey,
that this is the new challenge. We plan to have
challenges and this is the market. We're going to roll

(07:35):
with it. And I mean, of course it's gonna put
some pricing pressure on them, but you know, I think
again his view was a little more calmer, I guess,
obviously than Elon Musk tends to be.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
You know.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Another interesting thing was he was discussing Chinese vehicles and
I mean, we've had you know, Sandy Munro on the show.
We've had to focus some care soft on the show
that do teardowns and do a now of what vehicles
cost and Scouringe said, look, you know, every car company
in the world buys everybody else's product. He goes, we
buy everybody's cdit product. You know, you disassemble it, you

(08:10):
see all the pieces, you see how they made them, you.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
See what they weigh.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
And he says, and so of course, you know, the
same thing happens with with Chinese products, and we see that.
And he said, essentially, like a part is a part.
There's no magic there. But he said, there are a
couple of things, and I think that this is worth emphasizing.
He said, one is that in most cases these companies

(08:34):
have government support, so their cap X is basically zero,
so the money they get.

Speaker 5 (08:40):
And if I can elaborate on why he said that
was true, he said that it's the government wants auto
plans so badly that they will pay for most of
the investment to build the plant, which means you're coming
in and you've got a much lower break even point
if you're you're the automaker.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
And he said the other thing was was the labor
is exceedingly low. And he said in many cases they
live at the plant, they work ten hours a day,
six days a week. He said, that's not likely to
happen anywhere else. I mean not just here, but I
mean Europe is the same thing. So that becomes a

(09:20):
competitive edge for the Chinese, and so I begin to wonder,
I mean, is it possible to compete with the Chinese
companies that have His answer.

Speaker 5 (09:30):
To that question was, vehicles from China will always face
tariffs to offset those are artificial advantages, and I think
that's probably true. I also have to say, when you know,
anybody from one automaker says these other guys they cheat,
they get you know, breaks on labor, they treat their
people badly, they don't have to follow the same environmental

(09:52):
rules as we do. That is a bit self serving.
So I put a discount on all of that. I mean,
in the early days of the Chinese auto industry, there
were definitely people sleeping at the plant and you know,
showering at the plant because they didn't have running water.
But I'd be surprised if that's still the rule for
all of the you know, hundreds of plants throughout China.
But I don't know either.

Speaker 6 (10:12):
Yeah, I kind of thought scournge is approached to like
just the onset of Chinese manufacturers was somewhat similar to
his approach to the ev market itself too. It was
just kind of like, hey, this is this is probably
gonna happen. It's inevitable, you know, however the tariff situation
shakes out or whatnot. And he was just like, we
just were kind of planned for it, like he didn't
seem very put off by it.

Speaker 5 (10:35):
And the car companies that make it sound like, you know,
we're competing so that we can build what I feel
like some of them when they say we're competing, you know,
with the Chinese to build a cheap, you know, electric vehicle,
they're making people here think, oh, there's going to be
a ten thousand dollars electric vehicle here, and that's garbage.
They're trying to figure out how they can compete with
vehicles that are built and sold here. And the Chinese

(10:58):
do have some some of and that because of their
clean sheet of paper approach, but there's an awful lot
of noise in the conversation.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
I think it's an excellent point, and I just think
that this is the sort of thing that people need
to realize that there are elements at play here that
go far beyond like, oh, this is a cheap car.
They must know how to do this better than anybody
on the planet Earth does, And that's simply not what
he was saying.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
And it's interesting to get that viewpoint because we have
heard the other one so much. I mean, it's something
that Jim Farley at Forward in particular has been preaching
because he, among the auto CEOs, seems to be the
one who is the most at least publicly concerned about
competition from China. The people from Caresoft to tear down

(11:44):
and report on vehicles had an event about a year
ago when they brought a bunch of Chinese cars in
that we were allowed to go to and look at
all of them. And my first impression was, you know,
the Chinese certainly have a reputation of looking at things
and copying them. They all look like knockoffs of Tesla

(12:05):
to me. They had the center screen, they had a
lot of plastic inside. They were very much like that.
But what I would be most concerned about, and he
brought this up as well, is the higher end technology
in Chinese vehicles. That's the one area where he did
raise concerns, and he did say that within their company
they're working on those technological things. I tend to think

(12:28):
Americans in general are not fond of cheap cars, so
I would not be as worried about the low end
Chinese evs as I would be that they have some
sort of technology that we don't have that they can
license and make a lot of money and maybe spy
on us.

Speaker 5 (12:44):
And one of the things that he said when he
was talking, he said, they've got an advantage because they
don't have legacies where they have five hundred different little
computer controllers in each car. They're able to do it
more efficiently to just have four to do everything, and
that is an advantage. And then he said, and the
only other companies, the only companies outside of China that

(13:05):
are doing that are Tesla and Rivian. And there's a
lot of truth to that, but again there's a lot
of self service as well.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
Well.

Speaker 6 (13:12):
Everybody has their own angle, right, Even when Farley is like,
you know, saying something, it's like, well, what's he what's
he trying to do or what is he trying to
advocate for for his strategy? So I always do kind
of take what these guys are saying with like assault
shaker of salt, you know.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Well, I mean to the point of this, this whole
you know, software defined vehicle and electrical architecture. You know, Greg,
you were saying that that was sort of a thing
that he was emphasizing, and given the fact that he
got a license from Volkswagen Group for five point eight
billion dollars, it's probably something he has acute interest in.

(13:50):
But I thought one of the things that he said,
I think was somewhat controversial was when he was talking
about it, he said, in his mind, it's inconceivable that
a car company could exist in twenty thirty five without
having a software defined vehicle architecture.

Speaker 5 (14:05):
Is this again, that's the guy who's says all of
his vehicles have them.

Speaker 6 (14:11):
Okay, the guy who wants to sell everybody else on
software definable.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
It's also inconceivable that a car can exist in twenty
twenty five without air conditioning, airbags, and seat belts. I mean,
this is the way everybody is moving software even today.
Think of how much of your vehicle is software compared
to getting into a vehicle, say thirty years ago in
nineteen ninety five, where it might have been extremely minimal.

(14:37):
But you know, I'm old, so I can make comparisons
like that, and you know, in ten years, of course
they're all going to have that kind of software because
they needed to compete. I mean, I can't remember who
it was. It was one of the suppliers. I think
it was Delphi before they changed their name, who gave
this whole lecture on software to find vehicles and getting

(15:00):
rid of all the many controllers and just having one.
And I'm not enough of an old digital native to
understand all of the technology. But it doesn't seem like
that is unique to them. It seems like everybody is
moving in that direction. So that's a prediction. But I
think it's a prediction that is that's a pretty safe one. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
I think.

Speaker 6 (15:20):
Also it's going to depend on the degree of sophistication too,
Like what Rivian's doing right now might be more sophisticated
than what you know, Nissan is putting in the twenty
thirty five CenTra or something like. It could be like,
not everything's going to have the level of like things
that an electric are one t requires. So I think, yeah,
broadly speaking, sure, but there's going to be a lot

(15:42):
of diversification, I think, And.

Speaker 5 (15:43):
An architecture when it's introduced has got a fifteen year
lifespan too, So I mean there will be that every
company that matters will have a will have examples of that,
I think. But the idea that everybody's going to be
doing doing nothing but that is it's just unrealistic.

Speaker 4 (16:03):
But I think I think you could even say today's
vehicles are software defined for the most part. It's it's
a buzzword, but they have so much software in there,
and so much of what most people want to buy
in a vehicle, from the entertainment system to the connectivity
to all of that is software defined. Right now, how
many recalls do you hear right now that are software updates?

(16:24):
I mean that that are affect hardware, but their software updates.
It's here.

Speaker 5 (16:29):
And I was having a conversation with somebody a forward
last week about a column where I had that's all
their products, and they they raised the point, there's yes,
more and more, uh recalls you know every day are
over the air software updates. And I said, well, in
that case, tell us and we'll stop giving you our
time for us. But the amount is rising, but we

(16:54):
don't know that there's a whole lot of you know,
pay no attention to the recoil behind sugar, I think.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
So switching slightly now, it was it was refreshing that
he didn't he didn't dump on Tesla at all. I
mean he said that he thought that, you know, they're
they're big chunk of the EV market was because they
made compelling vehicles that people wanted to buy. And so
you know, proof point is those those vehicles.

Speaker 5 (17:22):
They changed the industry. There's just no denying that.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
And the interesting thing is that so Tesla this week
announced their economical model Why in Model three, So the
Model Why will have an MSRP of thirty nine, nine
ninety and the Model three thirty six nine ninety. And
you know, it just struck me that if this were

(17:47):
any other car maker, that people would be like up
in arms, because basically all of us over the years
wrote or talked about how outrageous it is that these
car companies are taking stuff out, they're decontenting vehicles, and
they're making them lesser vehicles. And so basically you look

(18:09):
at the model ie, no panoramic roof, the center console
is now open, manual, just steering wheel, fabric seats, no
heated real rear seats, slower supercharging, I mean, decontenting vehicles
and then selling them for less money. So it's like, gee,
isn't this like a car company?

Speaker 5 (18:29):
And Tesla has a great tradition of announcing low priced
models and never delivering them too, which means, I mean,
how much of this will we actually see? How many
of these will they build?

Speaker 6 (18:41):
It's very traditional, like you said, automaker move, Like, can't
you just picture get into a Model Y for the low,
low price. It's like on the back page of the
Free Press and the auto section, You're like, come on
down for this lease deal. And you think of like,
you know, the traditional OEM is doing that. You don't
necessarily think of Tesla. Tesla's the car company that you
order a car on your phone, you know, And now

(19:03):
they're like circling that number, like here you can get
in at Tesla for this price.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
So yeah, I don't know it's going to Know. You
take a look at where the competition now is in
the EV market. It's in that thirty to forty thousand
dollars price range, and this allows them to play in that.
Look at what's coming. I drove the leaf a while ago.
That's going to be about thirty five thirty six thousand, dollars.
The Equinox EV is there, the EV six from Kia,

(19:33):
the Hyundai Ionic five is there, the R two that
we're talking about coming from Rivian, They're all in there,
Mustang mach e so that I think a lot of
car companies are seeing post incentives. That's where the competition
is going to be. And you know you're still going
to get be able to buy a fully contented Model

(19:55):
Y or Model three. But I think they need to
be in there to they I hate to say to
stay relevant because they're still going to be the leader
for a long time, but to stay in the mix
of what a lot of the entry level EV buyers
are going to be looking at well.

Speaker 5 (20:12):
And the same I mean gravity applies to Tesla too.
I mean, if everybody that's another if every good point
that's up there, but no, I mean if everybody else
feels like they have to offer to have a price.
They can claim to sell cars as whether they sell
one of them a month or not, but they need

(20:32):
to be able to advertise a low price. And this
is just Tesla doing that again. I think. I mean,
I don't see them getting involved in a race to
the bottom with Slash an no.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
But certainly a race to the middle.

Speaker 6 (20:47):
Well, it's interesting too that they're decontenting things because you know,
a couple of years ago, you know, Wall Street was
very curious what is going to be there's sub forty
thousand or thirty thousand dollars ish price point, and we're
all speculating it's gonna be on a different chassis.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
What are they going to do?

Speaker 6 (21:03):
And now it turns out at least, you know, if
you look at what they did their homework on, it's
just kind of a cheaper version of what they have,
which to me is a little underwhelming too. And you
guys all probably driven a lot of Tesla's sometimes the
interiors are kind of basic. They're not great, you know,
like the last Equinox ev I drove the last k

(21:23):
EV six, those are nice interiors. I feel like I
was in a Model Y and I was like, Okay,
this is forty three thousand dollars, this is this is
not great. So it's I think it's a risky move too,
that could even damage the brand a little bit.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
So, I mean, Mark this this sort of gets to
your point that you were discussing earlier about how car
companies do things that make it seem as though they're
doing something when they're really not necessarily doing that. And
you know, I wonder if this is this is sort
of Tesla's play in that regard.

Speaker 5 (22:02):
I think so absolutely. I mean, just like I made
a reference to full self driving earlier. How long have
they said give us an extra ten thousand dollars for
this car today and I will give you a hamburger
or full self driving tomorrow and they have yet.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
To do it and had a whimpy reference on this show.

Speaker 5 (22:19):
Thank you, thank you. My work here is done. But no, no,
I mean I think very much. So, I mean one,
I mean, Tesla, they're really good at a lot of things.
They changed the industry, there is no denying that. But
they were effectively a monopoly player, and there is no
denying economics. They are going to lose share more people

(22:42):
are going to come in with compelling products like RJ
was talking about this week. So I mean, they're an
advice and they have yet to demonstrate the ability to
do a second generation of anything. They just keep tweaking
the vehicles they've been building, and they're really good at it,
But how long is that a viable strategy?

Speaker 4 (23:04):
And let's not forget the Elon musk factor, the factor
that you know, there were a certain group of people
who would only look at Tesla's who may not be
as enchanted with Elon as they once were because of
different political reasons, and they may finally go, hey, maybe
I'll look at another EV. Maybe I'll actually look at

(23:25):
a Chevy Equinox, or if I'm definitely an import person,
at a Hyundai Rikia. And you know, there are a
lot of really nice evs out there. And as you
brought up, Greg, the Tesla interiors are not that great.
I mean it just it. You know, you drive that
back to back, even with an Equinox, but especially if

(23:46):
you drive like a BMWEV or something like that, which
is comparable in price to some of the upper trim Teslas.
But you know, I don't think the original Tesla buyers
cross shopped. I think they went EV, I want to
buy a Tesla. I think now they're shopping, and Tesla
has to has to kind of guard against that.

Speaker 6 (24:03):
Tesla was like the iPhone, basically, you know, the default
option for all of us. It didn't matter if you
got the super expensive one or the cheaper one. You
still had an iPhone. And that's how I think how
Tesla coasted for a long time. And now they're kind
of realizing, wait a minute, we have to like develop
a new chassis at some point, and our cars have
looked the same since twenty ten.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
This isn't gonna fly.

Speaker 4 (24:26):
Got a great idea that Tesla.

Speaker 6 (24:28):
Air, Tesla Air Lucid might have something to say about that.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot about that.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Well, this makes me wonder, I mean, so not so
many years ago there was a lot of criticism against
the traditional car companies, lauding Tesla because Tesla is doing
something new, fresh and innovative, in that the traditional car
companies were the traditional car companies. They were doing things
the way they'd always done them right. But it occurs

(24:54):
to me from like what you were saying, Jeff, in
terms of, you know, you get into the interior of
a Hundi for goodness sakes, and you're like blown away
that they have done such a fabulous job. I wonder
whether in some regards the traditionals have a certain advantage
in that they know what the expectations are of their

(25:17):
customers when it comes to what an interior ought to
have and damn it, they're going to put it in
there and maybe bringing up a few notches because they
know this is what expected them.

Speaker 4 (25:29):
Well, in particular, not just their evs, their interiors have
been very nice for a while to begin with. So
you know, you have somebody who knows how to do
the interior of a car. And you talked about Sandy
Monroe being here. I mean, he is the one who
said a couple of years ago that Tesla was great
with the high tech stuff, but where they had problems

(25:50):
was with the car stuff like interiors and things like that.

Speaker 5 (25:54):
And that's the heart of it. I mean we're seeing
it with a lot of the little startups that are
dropping out the big car companies. I mean, Tesla showed
them that if you build a fast, beautiful electric vehicle,
people will build it. You know, the old car company starts.
Only people who wanted a tiny little shopping cart would

(26:15):
it would buy EV's And that was part of why
they got dragged, kicking and screaming into the market. But
once you get their attention, I mean, once that battleship
gets turned around, it's still a battleshit.

Speaker 4 (26:28):
You know.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
It's interesting that that Jim Farley said a couple of
weeks ago when they had this Accelerate program at Michigan
Central and Detroit, talking about how he doesn't see there
being much of a market for seventy thousand dollars evs,
that there's more of a market for thirty thousand dollars evs,
which goes to your point and Jeff of you know,
that's where the action is going to be, which which

(26:51):
sort of seems like Detroit may be able to pull
something off that we really haven't seen Tesla do, because
if you know, going back to Elon, he was saying
they're gonna have a twenty five thousand dollars car that
was going to be number twenty five thousand, and you
know here the Model three at thirty six nine to ninety,

(27:13):
it's a pretty big gap between twenty five grand and that.

Speaker 4 (27:16):
Well, you got to think that they kept trying to
make a twenty thousand dollars v are called twenty five
thousand dollars rev but probably found out that that's one
area maybe they couldn't crack the code where yeah, we
can make something and sell it for twenty five thousand,
but it's going to cost us twenty seven thousand to
build it, so we're not going to make any money
on it. You know, That's always the big issue is

(27:36):
can you get the cost down to make money off
of it? And can it still be attractive when you
do that well?

Speaker 5 (27:41):
And why make more of them if you're building as
many as you can and selling them all at forty
five to sixty Also, I don't know, I mean, and
I mean Jim Jim Farley. He talks a great game
on EV affordability, but a year ago people were talking
about the affordable ev as being between twenty and twenty

(28:02):
five thousand dollars. I'm not saying that's feasible, but that's
the price range people were talking about when they said
we need an affordable EV. All of a sudden, Jim
Farley says that we're going to build an affordable mid
size pickup and it'll be better than Arab four in
every conceivable way, and it'll be so affordable we'll offer
it starting at thirty thousand dollars. He just moves the

(28:25):
goal post. And again, how many of the thirty thousand
dollars ones will they actually sell? I mean, two years ago,
I think we all drove the Valvo ex thirty and
they said it was going to be on sale in
six months in the United States for thirty five thousand dollars.
It's been two years and they still have not sold
one for under forty grand in this country. So, I

(28:47):
mean people love to people talk about affordability a lot
more than they do stuff about it.

Speaker 4 (28:52):
You know, you talk about moving goalposts. I mean back
then when they were talking about that that vehicle was
going to be built in China, the tariffs were not
as high from China as they were then. And you
know this isn't just the Trump administration. The Biden administration
originally put the very high tariffs on Chinese vehicles. So
Volvo's hopes for that vehicle was a vehicle made in China,

(29:15):
and then they were going to make some in Europe
as well. So the rules keep changing. So I see
what Farley said a couple of years of weeks ago,
because I was at that event as well as maybe
the beginning of the post ev incentive EV promotion, that

(29:38):
this is where we're going to be, that we've got
a whole different world than we were in a year ago,
where the government was promoting EVS when everybody was gearing
up to build battery plants. When all of that was happening, well,
you're not seeing government promotion of evs, and you're not
seeing government penalties for not meeting certain emission standards, and

(29:59):
you're seeing all of those standards changing. So now we're
seeing the car companies adapt to new realities.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
See I see, Mark, I thought you were going to
go to The initial price for the Ford Lightning. As
you remember, it was thirty nine to nine, that's right,
and then the following year it was like fifty four
to nine, and it just and so you know this
whole thing of like, oh, yes, here's here's this car
that we have for for thirty thousand dollars, but let

(30:27):
me talking about one that costs forty thousand dollars.

Speaker 5 (30:29):
And Jim Fremley is the guy talking about we need
the thirty thousand dollars EV but he's also the guy
who sells a whole lot of sixty to seventy five
thousand dollars f one fifties.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
So that's the only way they can afford to sell
a thirty thousand dollars REV.

Speaker 6 (30:46):
That's where the big car companies, I think do have
a big advantages. They can say, hey, we have this
one hundred thousand dollars GMC yukon and that could balance
out if they want to sell, like, you know, some
new Chevy electric compact or something.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
And also it's like.

Speaker 5 (31:01):
Sorry, go ahead, no, I apologize. But I feel like
we keep acting as if they want to sell cheap
cars and they don't. They want to sell profitable cars.
They get forced occasionally when the market is disrupted, to
sell things that are unsustainably cheap. And that's the reason

(31:26):
that American companies kept building lots of at best marginal
compact and mid sized aidatas for a generation and building
good pickups because they were able to charge more for
the pickups. That's where their heart was. They were building
the other ones because there were regular preparatory requirements to
do it, and there's not that much of that kind
of requirement anymore. So I feel like we're saying we're

(31:50):
talking about them wanting to build twenty thousand, thirty thousand
dollars cars. I don't feel like that's the conversations they're
having in the offices they're building. You know, they want
to build cars they make money on, and I think
they're probably pretty happy if their production stops right at
whatever the lowest price they need to advertise to look

(32:10):
competitive is, I think no.

Speaker 6 (32:13):
I think it's tricky too when you try to build
a vehicle to a certain price, because you probably you
remember the Mercedes like CLA, that first generation, first Mercedes
ever to be south of I think thirty thousand dollars
in modern times are the only one in their lineup
at that point, And how quickly did that get to
like thirty one thirty three? So it's always kind of

(32:33):
I think a moving target. And if you look at
like the average transaction price, I'm sure you guys all
look at automotive news every day, it's like creeping up
to like forty nine. It's forty nine three, it's forty
nine four. I mean, who can make a thirty thousand
dollars ev It just seems like such a money loser
that it's going to be a really tough strategy.

Speaker 5 (32:50):
Well, and part of the reason we all love the Maverick,
and I do love the Maverick when it first went
on sale, was that it's it was out of the
factory hybrid with a price just under twenty grand. If
I recall correctly. Well, now the price is just under
thirty thousand dollars, and that doesn't mean that they're not
selling every meverick they can build, you know, to an extent.

(33:11):
It's the market.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Okay, we're gonna this is a good spot. We're gonna
we're gonna take a quick break here. We're gonna hear
from our friends at Alex Partners in borg Warner. We
appreciate their support. Couldn't do this without them. And we're
gonna come back and we're going to talk about specific
cars and we're gonna be the rapid fire. We're gonna
go through a whole bunch of cars. So those of
you who like to hear these guys talk about cars,

(33:37):
you're gonna hear them.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Autol Line after Hours. It's brought to you by Alex
Partners when it really matters, and by Born.

Speaker 7 (33:48):
The automotive and industrial sectors are undergoing a historic transformation electrification, digitalization,
supply chain, reinvention, regulatory chef. The pace is accelerating and
the pressure to adapt is real. This is not a
time for hesitation. It's a time for bold decisions backed

(34:09):
by fast, effective execution. You need a partner who understands
complexity from factory floors to boardrooms and delivers measurable results.
That partner is Alex Partners when it really matters.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
The automotive industry continues to evolve, and so do the
opportunities to define it. Borg Warner, one of the world's
most admired companies, gets its partners where they need to go.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Let's do something big together. Okay, and we are back.
So it just so happens that you have here much
of the brain trusts of the North American car, truck
and utility.

Speaker 4 (34:56):
Don't the value the award that.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Over here is the president of the organization.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
Mister Feeling is a past president as well.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
And current current board member, present board and just departure
board member, but retired treasurer.

Speaker 5 (35:14):
Yah, yeah, retired treasure.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
I was a remember too, So just just imagine that
sort of frightening should scare people. So okay, So I
have here the semi finalists.

Speaker 4 (35:31):
For we call it Best of twenty twenty six because
that's much more exciting than saying semi finalists.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Marketing.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
Yep, it is.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
It's marketing for SEO.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, that's exactly right. Greg from Auto but guide knows
all about SEO in probably more ways than he even
wants to think of, whether you ever need to know.
All right, so we'll try to go really fast here,
we'll go through these I I hope we'll make them all.
You probably won't probably get through the cars, trucks and
maybe half of the SUVs. But okay, OUDI a five.

Speaker 4 (36:04):
Haven't driven it yet. Driving it at the event we
have in a couple of weeks.

Speaker 6 (36:09):
It's gorgeous. I think it's going to get strong consideration.

Speaker 5 (36:13):
And Audi has been sort of wandering around at a
little bit of a loss as far as technology and
styling for a couple of years, and on paper, this
looks really good. If it delivers, it could be a
big deal for the brand.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
Okay, Dodge charger, the electric charger.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
Elestric charger, and the gasoline powers powers together in one area.
I mean it electric charger isn't sold like they thought
it would. But it was a very nice vehicle to drive,
very sporty, and I'm looking forward to getting into the
gasoline powered one as well.

Speaker 5 (36:44):
And it set a record in the last month of
the federal incentives as hid just about every EV it's
and it's a fascinating strategy. It's a new platform that
they developed to be, you know, good with both electric
and internal combustion. It's it's it's a promising vehicle.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
I think it's a strong contender. I really do.

Speaker 6 (37:05):
I mean, you don't get a new Dodge charger very often,
so I think that alone is going to turn some heads.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Okay, Honda's bringing back the Prelude, this time as a hybrid.

Speaker 5 (37:17):
Borrows a lot of pieces from the Civic and the
Civic Hybrid. I have to say it looks good, but
I mean, I don't know that there was an audience
crying out for the Prelude, frankly, and when the Prelude
was a leader, it was cutting edge style and cutting
edge technology. And this feels to me a bit like

(37:39):
a trip to the park spin.

Speaker 4 (37:40):
So basically, to.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Your point, it's using the same powertrain as the Civic Hybrid,
and it's using a suspension that's from the Civic type R.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
But I kind of like the recipe though.

Speaker 6 (37:53):
I think there's a lot of good pieces in there
that I'm interested to spend more time in it. I
think there's a lot it's a good recipe.

Speaker 4 (37:59):
That historically are jurors have liked Honda cars. They've done
very well in this competition. I haven't been in it yet,
but I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
The Kia K four, Now, this is a car. When
I first literally when I first started driving it, I
had a holy blank moment that like, this car was
so good. I mean, the platform seemed solid, the amount
of technology that was in the thing. I was just
I was just blown away by.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
This and the vehicle under consideration as a hatchback, because
that's the newer model, it's not the existing one. But
I agree with you on the K four itself. I
went on the drive program and was somewhat impressed. Then
I had one at home for a week and was like, wow,
I've never been into small cars, but this was something
I could see myself buying.

Speaker 6 (38:46):
It's a gorgeous car. And I think you remember last
year the Sedan kind of got into the juror pool
it pretty much the last minute, and I think it
ended up finishing like second. It had a really strong showing,
and I think keys do that really well. They just
they're pleasant to drive, and I think this will be
a strong one too.

Speaker 5 (39:03):
Yeah, we tested the Saddan so late in the process
last year and for such a short time term that
I feel like the hatchback in addition to being absolutely
gorgeous and having all the other virtues that the Sedan did.
This is kind of a second bite to the Apple version.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, all right, So the next two are two cars
that have actually been mentioned so far in the show.
Not exactly these cars, but so the Mercedes Cla.

Speaker 5 (39:29):
Well electric, new architecture, new technology would be pretty darn good.
New software also, which I'm hoping means that their digital
assistant doesn't keep interrupting me because it thinks I said
hey Mercedes, when I said, nothing like that.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Haven't driven I have a drivenity either. But I've always
liked the CLA.

Speaker 6 (39:49):
I think it's just a it has a really nice
like niche in the Mercedes lineup.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
The Nissan CenTra.

Speaker 5 (39:57):
American needs entry level cars. Nissan needs a hit. They
put a lot of the technology from the larger models
into it.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
And again this is one I'm looking forward to driving
because it's just out right now. But uh, you know,
we as a jury have been you know, very willing
to give a small car a push because of technology,
because of affordability, things of that nature, So I would
think that that's one in my mind that is deserves

(40:28):
strong consideration.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
It just it just bothers me that the company presents
it and says that it has quote a proven and
reliable powertrain, which means that it's got an old power
train in carryover essentially, so it's got it's got you know,
sexy sheet metal. But you know this, but do people.

Speaker 4 (40:46):
Nissan Sentra do people buying these on Centra's for a
new powertrain. They buy it because it's good, reliable, dependable.
So that's kind of what you look at it, all right?

Speaker 5 (40:56):
Should we mention that next week we will all there
are some of these vehicles we haven't driven yet. Next
week we have the annual comparison event where we get
all the jurors and most of the vehicles together. So
several of the ones we haven't driven yet we will
have by this time next week.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Okay, the f one fifty Lobo, you know, we've.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
Got that, and the Maverick Lobo on there. I mean,
I'm they're knives, but I'm a little hesitant to predict
that something that's just a unique trim will get So both.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Of these, both of these are designed to be streaked. Yeah, vehicles.

Speaker 5 (41:35):
The Maverick has some meaningful new hardware that gives us,
you know, kind of the ability to drift a little
bit and stuff like that. The F one fifty Lobo
is just a lowered, slightly lowered version of the F
one fifty with new trim on it. So I take

(41:58):
the Maverick Lobo more seriously in the competition than I
do the F one pitch and has a.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Twin clutch rear drive that allows truck factory. But they
recommend that you do this on a close course course,
not as you're you know, driving down woodward.

Speaker 6 (42:15):
So I tend to think that Mavericks a better canvas
for the Lobo treatment too. I think for the like
the the F one fifty, there's so many trims that
I think the Lobo might get lost on the shuffle.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
So then we're going to have two Rams. One is
the RAM fifteen hundred HEMI and then the RAM twenty
five hundred.

Speaker 4 (42:34):
Yeah, twenty five hundred is really the only truck that
is new completely as opposed to being a variant. The
HIMMI is a nice addition to it. But you know,
like you were talking about with the Kia hatchback. The
RAM fifteen hundred last year got kind of overlooked, So

(42:55):
maybe this is another chance to give a look at that,
because a RAM fifteen hundred is a very nice few
to begin with. The himmy brings back a classic engine.
But as far as being a significant change, but you know,
the twenty five hundred just takes all the nice stuff
that they put in the fifteen hundred and puts it
in the big truck.

Speaker 5 (43:13):
The putting the HEMY back into the into the fifteen hundred, though,
does essentially undo the decision that cost Carlos Tavarus his job,
which was the mind boggling idea that we should just
take the HEMY away from people before we've given them
a chance to see that the new six cylinder were
offering as an alternative is a really good engine too,

(43:36):
and they've been selling it, you know, like ice cubes
in hell since it went on the market. I mean,
it's very successful. But you're right, the twenty five hundred
is an almost entirely new truck.

Speaker 6 (43:48):
I kind of wonder too, from a voting perspective, if
people are going to be like, do we want to
give the award to a heavy duty truck.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
I don't know. I mean, I'm not APO didn't give
it to the Mark School.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Mark School last year on heavy duty trucks are a
lot of people for personal Yeah, I just thought of
them as being commercial vehicles and he didn't. But this
is this is the all time greatest quote from an
auto executive. I think that is in relation to the
Ram fifteen hundred. Tim Kiniskus said, quote, everyone makes mistakes,

(44:17):
but how you handle them? Defined you Rams screwed up
when we drop the HEMI we own it and we
fixed it.

Speaker 5 (44:23):
All the credit in the world for saying that, I
gotta tell you. Yeah, Yeah, more power to you, Tim.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
And finally, the company we've talked about beating the show,
the Rivian R one T quad.

Speaker 5 (44:35):
Motor a lot of power. I've driven it, had a
lot of power. Yeah, And Rivian it's a nice truck.
It also benefits from all of their new zonal control systems,
the computer controllers which we were talking about earlier, which
Volkswagen admires enough to pay six billion dollars for some

(44:55):
of the action, and the motors are the ones that
Rivian has been developing internally. They're a pretty big deal
for the company. Going forward, and we're going to see
a lot of them.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeahy twenty five horse power. It's what everyone needs, right.

Speaker 6 (45:10):
Well exactly just like with your hemy too, right, need
more horsepower. That's the themous year of the awards.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
More power.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Okay, so we've now done the cars and trucks. We
will now start with the utilities and crows or just utilities.

Speaker 4 (45:24):
And realize we made a change this year in that
we we debated this internally, that there are so many
more utilities out there. We used to limit the number
of utilities. It was like similar number of utilities as cars.
And one of our jurors said, hey, maybe we should
consider more utilities, and we talked about it. We thought, well,

(45:47):
that's where the market's going. So we're giving our jurors
more utilities to consider.

Speaker 5 (45:52):
They're close to sixty percent of the market out and
the ballot reflects that. I think, if I remember right,
I think the last two years, literally every single new
car that was introduced during the course of the year
made the.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
Semi somehow, Jeff, this list doesn't look any any longer
to me than the last.

Speaker 5 (46:14):
It's just it's just right, okay.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
But it seems to me that that's been the way
for the last several years. Now no one cares this
is all inside.

Speaker 5 (46:23):
There were about twice as many cars last.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Year specause there were twice a man moving right along
so Accurate a d X.

Speaker 5 (46:33):
Accurate dealers have wanted that for a while. I haven't
been able to figure out why it took Accurate so
long to give them a subcompact to uh, you know,
luxury ish s u V.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
It's a good looking little car, interiors nice. I liked it.

Speaker 6 (46:49):
Crossover, I guess technically, but it's pretty, It's it's small.
I don't really know if this is exactly what they're
gonna sell a ton of these.

Speaker 4 (46:58):
I'm waiting to drive it, so I I just don't
model list a few weeks.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
I don't know why it has an Accurate badge on it.
Let's just I'm just it feels you.

Speaker 5 (47:07):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's not special, you know. I mean
it looks nice.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
I think it looks Accurate.

Speaker 5 (47:14):
Yeah yeah, but I mean it's it's not special. And
you wouldn't think that Accurate is a brand that aspires
to luxury. There should be something special.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Yeah, that's my point. Okay, the Audi Q five I've
not driven it.

Speaker 5 (47:30):
Me neither, but it's their best selling vehicle, and it,
like the A five, is based on a new architecture,
and the two of those are both an attempt to
say we are technically relevant, we are once again a
design leader, and OUDI needs successes, so it's it's worth
paying attention to.

Speaker 4 (47:49):
I haven't driven it, have not yet.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
No, Okay, three Cadillacs, the Escalade IQ, the Optique in
the Vista all electric, all electrics. So you have the
giant three row Escalade, You've got the two row Optique
compact crossover, and the mid size three row Vistique.

Speaker 5 (48:14):
And you've got which they're calling sort of the mini
Escalade now, which actually works. I think it's got more road.
Got the XT six, which was their previous three row
non Escalade, was a pretty feeble attempt, and the Mystic
feels like a real luxury vehicle like it it should
be mentioned in the same sentences as Escalade.

Speaker 4 (48:36):
Now. I've driven all three of these, okay, and I
really liked the Optic. I mean that vehicle just jumped
out at me as a vehicle that was just a
really nice small to mid size suv that happened to
be electric. Vistick was very nice too, And of course
you can't knock an escalate IQ. I mean the escalator

(48:59):
is is well, yeah, I know you can, but I
mean the Escalate is is what it is. It's a
big vehicle. This is an electric version of it. I
don't necessarily see it as being likely a front runner,
but you don't know. But the Optic, the entry level one,
I really see as a.

Speaker 6 (49:16):
Contender, kind of like the Vistic in the middle, just
because it's like so many people like like big ish
but sort of mid size crossovers with that second row,
whether you're a third row, whether you need it or not,
you could put it down. I think it's a very
mainstream vehicle for Cadillac.

Speaker 5 (49:32):
Yeah, the Vistick feels like it should be a success.
The Optic as well as you know, all the virtues
Jeff mentioned has got going for Isshion. There's a V
series that's available now and for the twenty twenty six
Monel year they started building it with a standard next port,
which are two more things in his favor. I think
I like all three of the Cadillacs. I've got to

(49:54):
say I'm going to be I wonder if they sort
of divide the people who like Cadillac and none of
them make it, or does one of them, you know,
you know, rise above the others. I really like all
three vehicles.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
We'll switch switching to the tick pronunciation rather than the
take pronunciation. I would say the Optic. When I drove that,
I was like, wow, this is this is the first
modern Cadillac. This it just struck me as as you know,
the interior design, the performance of the ev just like yeah.
You can see a younger generation saying, oh, I got

(50:29):
to go buy a Cadillac, or I'll go look at
a Cadillac, which I think. I don't think the Escalade
does that. I mean, it's it's you know, it's.

Speaker 5 (50:39):
But the Escalade is Cadillac. I love the Optic. By
the way, I'm not I'm not arguing against the Optic,
but I but I think that we we say anything
dismissive about any Escalade at our risk because the Escalade
is the defining Cadillac in a lot of ways.

Speaker 4 (50:57):
For lack of a better word, it's an icon.

Speaker 5 (51:01):
We were just talking about how iconic is being overused.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Okay, moving on to another vehicle that's large and in
charge the Foreigner Horsepower Forward Expedition, another big three row vehicle.

Speaker 4 (51:14):
But you and I drove that together in Kentucky through
some backwoods and things of that nature. Didn't run into
any revenuers or stills or anything while we were down there.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
We could have fit them all in there.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
To fit them all in there, it's a very nice vehicle.
I just happened to have one that I drove here today.
It's impressive. It's off to a really good start in
the marketplace. It's got an off road version now for
the first time. It very impressive vehicle.

Speaker 6 (51:42):
I think Ford does a really good job with the
way their large SUVs handle these days. I think they
used to be a little like almost like enclosed F
one fifties, and the Expedition is kind of just like
it's just manifesting all their suspension work over the last
decades so.

Speaker 5 (51:59):
And the Expedition they push pretty much all of the
invention they had for that vehicle in the back two
feet of it, the tailgate, the flexible seating that you
can have a two level buffet table. It's got a
lot of tricks back there, and they are things that
people will find useful for uses for it. It's I mean,

(52:21):
it's going to be a great vehicle for you'll go
into soccer tournaments, tailgating outside allions games, and those are
reasons people buy expeditions.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
That reminded me of the Malibu Max remember that, and
they said, look, you can put your cruck pot here
and you go tailgating. I'll never forget that, all right.
Genesis GV seventy.

Speaker 4 (52:47):
Genesis are just wonderful vehicles. Forty great styling, great luxury
at a great price.

Speaker 6 (52:54):
Exactly what he said. Yeah, I think it's a strong contender.
And the jurors seem to like Genocie Genesis ll.

Speaker 5 (53:02):
Be like Genesis is not genocide, to be clear, Sorry
about that. And a really really nice interior, which is
one of the things Genesis does well. It's it's it's
a very well sorted out vehicle.

Speaker 4 (53:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
And if you've ever people wanted to ever see real
carbon fiber, they need to go into that vehicle because
they've got sheets and sheets and sheets of it everywhere.

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
The Honda Passport.

Speaker 5 (53:35):
A real off road capable s UV from Honda, which
is the first time that they've done that. Very capable,
very nice, I mean, I think it's great. They They've
been advertising their SUVs as if they had off road
capability for a while, and they always showed them driving
on a dirt road somewhere near an off road a

(53:57):
TV Honda, which I thought was a.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Little bit somewhere off.

Speaker 5 (54:00):
Yes, yes, but it's got real chops. It's a good vehicle.
It's a solid little off roader. It gets them in
the game. It's a big, big deal for Honda.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
I like it a lot.

Speaker 6 (54:09):
I took one to the Upper Peninsula, took it into
some actual dirt and trails. It's it's capable, but I like, literally,
the best compliment I could give it is.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
It's very comfortable to drive the like four hours up north.

Speaker 6 (54:21):
So it's unlike a Wrangler, which is going to kind
of beat you up but will be awesome on the trails.
I mean, this thing, it's super comfortable.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
It's basically like in a cord but it can do
all this stuff.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
It's what you like should drive.

Speaker 6 (54:34):
If you're like sort of thinking of buying a Wrangler
to just a driver on town, you know.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
Yeah, well, I mean it probably does not have the
same attributes of rock crawling or things like that as
a Wrangler, but for what most people would want to
do with an off road vehicle, it will more than perform.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
All right, moving right along, we have two that I
think will split it more than the Cadillacs will, the
Hoyndai Ionic nine in the Hyundai Palisade, because you've got
two SUVs that are just you know, one's electric admittedly,
but I mean the Palisade I just thought was just

(55:13):
an exquisite vehicle in terms of ride handling amenities.

Speaker 5 (55:18):
And there's a hybrid version that they're adding as well,
which I'm glad to the appeal. And I mean they're
both really good. It's hard to find any fault with
either of those vehicles.

Speaker 4 (55:29):
And I am thinking, with the changing of the world
as it is, I don't know if jurors are necessarily
going to in their mind give EV's points for being
a new technology. I think evs are now an established
technology the power For most people's mind, it's just another powertrain.
So EV nine was a wonderful vehicle, was a great vehicle,

(55:52):
but I would lean more towards the Palisade just because
they're going to sell a lot more Palisades than they
sell EV nines.

Speaker 6 (55:58):
I think the Palisades a little more comfortable and familiar
for what you're looking for in that segment, whereas the
nine is a little more It's almost like so tech forwards,
so futuristic, you know, I think the Palisade's gonna get
a lot of botes.

Speaker 5 (56:11):
Can I give a shot for one of my favorites? No, no,
I've been canceled. One of my favorite individual features of
the year in the Palisade, the receivers for the seat
belts in the back seat have a little light of
LEDs in them so you can find them. I mean,

(56:32):
airport shuttles, you name it. I have spent so much
time fumbling around trying to belt myself in with those things.
Why did it take this long for somebody to figure
that out? I love that feature.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
My favorite feature in the Palisade is the button on
the top of the second row seat that you push
to make the seat go forward and fold so people
can get into the third row without having to figure out, like,
how do I.

Speaker 4 (56:54):
Use this candle? Does this? Do it? Does this? Do it?

Speaker 2 (56:57):
You just push the button and lo and behold it's done.
You know, why didn't anybody think of this years ago? Okay,
this this is. This has got big buzz. I don't
know who's driven at the Cherokee.

Speaker 5 (57:10):
Nobody's driven it yet.

Speaker 4 (57:11):
He's driven it yet, And I hate to be the
bearer of bad news. I was chatting with g people
the other day, begging them to bring it to the
drive and they say it's fifty to fifty because they're
still trying to get everything together. And you know, they
asked me, what if we don't bring it this year,
we'll be eligible next year. And I said, well, only
if your first vehicle your sell is after New Year's

(57:33):
We don't love you ahead.

Speaker 5 (57:35):
We could give him a break. If it's right on
the edge edge.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
We could we could, all right. So the bottom line
is I really want to drive that vehicle, but we
may not have an opportunity.

Speaker 5 (57:48):
And it's hugely significant for Jeep. It should be a
leader in the biggest segment of the market other than pickups.

Speaker 6 (57:54):
I mean, I went to the backgrounder. I didn't get
to drive it, obviously, but I mean everything seems to
be there for modern Cherokee. So if they can get
it there, I think it could be a pretty good contender.

Speaker 5 (58:04):
And the last I heard, they were saying that there
might still be a separate press drive in December, although
the last at that point they weren't telling me they
were doubtful about being able to get it to our comparisons.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
By next week. By December the boats will have been
taken for the finalists, so the point sorry for them, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
All right, Lucid Gravity.

Speaker 4 (58:26):
SUV.

Speaker 5 (58:28):
I'm getting one in a week. I'm really looking forward
to it. Lucid. They've got good technology, they make beautiful cars.
They stumbled out of the gate with software, but that
was four years ago. Now I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 4 (58:42):
Same as Mark. I haven't driven it.

Speaker 6 (58:44):
Yet, yeah, I just the last loose I drove was
a few years ago, the Lucid, one of the Air's
gorgeous car. So I think this could be formidable.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
So the thing that that I was curious about when
I drove that, I drove the Gravity and the windshield
segues right into the panoramic roof, and I just wondered,
what will safe light charge you when you crack that windshield?
I mean it's huge, I mean it's this gianty. So

(59:13):
just looking at it from the consumer's point of view,
it's a practical matter, all right, so here's here's one
that is almost the The counter to that is the
is the Nissan Leaf thirty thousand dollars commuter EV.

Speaker 4 (59:24):
I'm not sure if it's going to be a heavy
challenger for car the year, but I really liked it
when I drove it. It's a very nice EV. It
feels extremely conventional, so that's probably why it's not going
to stand out. But I think, unlike the other generations
of the Leaf, this feels like something somebody can buy,
can live with, be very comfortable with. And you know,

(59:48):
Nissan at least for now, has stopped selling the Aria
in this market, so it's going to be Nissan's bread
and butter electric vehicle for a while.

Speaker 6 (59:56):
I think the Leaf has a pretty strong like brand
awareness among EV enthusiasts, So I think it I mean,
I'm gonna give it a strong look. I think it's
you know, it could be aggressive on price, and it
seems like, you know, it's attractive. I think jurors might
get a little mixed up with like the Leaf versus
the CenTra, and like, you know, how do you distribute
your maybe Nissan votes, But I don't know, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
It could be strong.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
The Centri's got sexy she metal.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
That's true.

Speaker 6 (01:00:23):
Theoretically they should both be in the car category. But
the Leaf is a crossover according to Nissan.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
So I yeah, and.

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
It feels a term I refuse to use too.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Yeah, all right, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
We got, we got, we've got, we had four more
to go, so five more? Actually, Mark, you're the Leaf.

Speaker 5 (01:00:41):
Nissan needs hits. They need hits. They've got to do
better than they've been doing. This is a chance for
them to convince us they are.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Okay, I don't think any of us have driven this,
but I could be proven wrong, and that'd be great.
Pull Star four I have if you.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Yeah, but it's a bargain, so if I you'd have
to shoot you. Okay, No, But in general it is
without giving drive impressions and saying what or I liked
it or I didn't like it? Uh? It is him? Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:01:14):
The one interesting thing about the Pollstar for that I
couldn't get over is no rear window. It has the
you know, I don't know, there's this GenTech but the
GenTech style mirror that has cameras eye right, and they
say they do that to give more hatch room. I'm
still not one hundred percent convinced people are going to

(01:01:35):
adapt to that. And when we talk about recalls, one
of the biggest recall is on backup cameras, so that
could be an issue as well. It's it's something that's
unique among evs, SO and SUVs, So I don't see
it being a heavy duty contender, but could be a

(01:01:55):
dark horse.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
I haven't driven it, so I.

Speaker 5 (01:01:58):
Haven't driven it. But Polestar makes interesting cars, and I'm
really intrigued to see what I do think of that
rear view approach because a lot of companies would love
to not be have to worry about actual visibility out
the rear. If people are willing to accept it, we're
going to see more people, more more companies designing cars
that way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Forester, Hybrid, super Forester or Hybrid.

Speaker 5 (01:02:22):
I think that we're including the other Foresters that it
only lists the hybrid.

Speaker 4 (01:02:27):
The hybrid is the only one considered this year.

Speaker 5 (01:02:29):
That seems wrong because I just drove a wilderness.

Speaker 4 (01:02:32):
Huh, yeah, I think that was last year. But nope,
we can talk inside.

Speaker 5 (01:02:36):
Baseball on but anyway, nice, super nice, nice hybrid.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
I think it's strong.

Speaker 6 (01:02:44):
I mean it's you know, people in the segment are
I think are open to hybrid technology if you don't
beat them over the head with it and just say, hey,
you're your Forester gets this much better fuel economy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
And better fuel economy, and I don't think over the
head with it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
I think it just is Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
See this this figure from from Super that the range
is up to five hundred and eighty one miles on
that vehicle. And so here you have a sounds pretty
good crossover that has got all this stuff and it's
got great range. The Toyota four Runner I like og
s u v I land frame.

Speaker 6 (01:03:20):
Yeah, like the charger in the car segment, I think
four Runner is just going to get some eyeballs and
I think it's going to be a strong contender.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
And I really liked it.

Speaker 6 (01:03:27):
And I've driven like three of the different trims so
far this year and they're all fun. Like the Tier
D Pro I think is the one that is like
the best, you know, manifestation of the fore erunner. The
Tier is way better, I think the and it's just
so much more relaxed to drive. And I don't mean
that in a bad way. It's like, hey, you're crush

(01:03:47):
shopping this with a Bronco or a Wrangler. They can
be a little challenging to drive. This thing still capable
as all hell, but it's you can drive it tended.

Speaker 4 (01:03:57):
I'm sorry, go ahead. I like it.

Speaker 5 (01:03:59):
And it's the only vehicle in its segment that offers
a hybrid drive train, which counts for something, and it's
good hybrid. I'm actually driving a TRD Pro today. I've
parted it out front. The sticker on this kind of
made my eyes water. Seventy three grand, but that is
the absolute highest trim level. But I mean Forerunner, it's solid,

(01:04:21):
it's been around for a long time. It's a legitimate
off roader, and it's a hybrid. It's got stuff going
for what he said.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Okay, speaking of Toyota, the Wrap four hybrid.

Speaker 5 (01:04:32):
The vehicle that must be considered. I'm going out to
drive us on Monday. The best selling non pickup in
the country, the defining vehicle of the biggest segment, and
the model line is switching to all hybrids this year.
I mean it's it's a serious player.

Speaker 4 (01:04:52):
Yeah, I mean, I would say that that might be
one of the few that are in the Here are
the vehicles to be beat, and I haven't even driven
a because I'll be probably on the plane with you
on Monday. And you know, the RAV four is I
believe Toyota's best selling vehicle period. It goes past the
Camray so and that's the heart of the market these days.

(01:05:13):
So I'm looking forward to experiencing it.

Speaker 6 (01:05:15):
It's a good vehicle and it's a hugely important segment.
I'm sure you guys have all seen the same like
LinkedIn post where the Rev four outsold like the F
one fifty excluding certain.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
This and that.

Speaker 6 (01:05:26):
But they sell a ton of them and it's I mean,
really they've been bread and butter product right now.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Yeah, it's something that the Camri went to being all
hybrid and it didn't affect its sales right negatively, which
I think is.

Speaker 4 (01:05:37):
And that just shows you how mainstream hybrids are. Is
you know, the best selling vehicle on Toyota's lineup. You
can only get a hybrid, and who's going to complain
about it when you're getting better fuel economy?

Speaker 5 (01:05:47):
Yeah, the lack of a hybrid is more of a
negative than you're adding one. Is anything surprising or unexpected?

Speaker 4 (01:05:53):
Now?

Speaker 5 (01:05:53):
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
VW Tigwe I think.

Speaker 4 (01:05:58):
We also were going to drive that tomorrow, the turbo
version of driving Tomorrow, Volkswagen is best selling a vehicle
in this country and possibly in the world.

Speaker 5 (01:06:07):
I couldn't swear to that second part. It's a good
looking replacement for a version that hasn't really cast fire
in America yet.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
For the vehicle version of a vehicle that wasn't previously
so good looking. Yeah, I just together one was just no,
I'll go with that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
It was there.

Speaker 5 (01:06:30):
Yeah, no, absolutely no, It's it's nice, and again it
needs to be. It's an important player for its brand
and in the segment it's in, so it's got to
be considered.

Speaker 4 (01:06:40):
Because but a mega lost in the shuffle with so
many SUVs in there.

Speaker 6 (01:06:44):
I think there's probably stronger players, But I mean it's
it is a really important vehicle for Volkswagen, and I
think they've done a good job of sort of getting
that customer that wants something different than the domestics or
the Japanese or whatnot. And I think this will play
to that and I'll have a better depression in about
eighteen hours when I drive it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
All right, last, it's certainly not least but a vehicle
that we've already discussed in part the Volvo e X thirty.

Speaker 5 (01:07:14):
It missed its moment for me two years ago if
they'd been able to get it on the market here.

Speaker 4 (01:07:18):
Two years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
It was a semi finalist.

Speaker 5 (01:07:21):
And they pulled it because they weren't going to be
able to sell it a year. Yeah, I was very
give them credit for that. Yeah, I was involved in that.
I got a call from them after it was named.
No was a finalist, it was one of the final three,
and I got a call from them saying it's not
going to be sold this year, and they had to
pull it and we ended up putting the number four vehicle,
which I think was I don't think it was one

(01:07:43):
of the hun days that went in there in its place.
And I mean, I can't give them enough credit for
the honesty to do that, because there are companies that
bend every rule to try to get considered in a
year when they think that the competition is more favorable
to him and Giovalvo. They had a strong player, but

(01:08:04):
you know that they weren't going to be able to
deliver it, and they told us the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
So what do you think of this now? I mean,
is it is it?

Speaker 4 (01:08:11):
It's basically so many people in the media really loved
that vehicle, and I was an outlier. I didn't like it.
I thought I was a washing plastic and I thought
it was something that was a little cheap looking for
American tastes. So my opinion of that vehicle is a
little different than most people's.

Speaker 6 (01:08:31):
I'm more in the middle of that one. I don't
really love it, but I think it's it's it's fine,
it is what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
I really liked it two years ago.

Speaker 5 (01:08:38):
Yeah, it's fun to drive, it's good looking. Two years
ago would have been a leader.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
Now it's not missed its moment.

Speaker 5 (01:08:47):
Yeah, I really think so it's unfortunate for the vehicle.

Speaker 6 (01:08:50):
Maybe even last year it might have been more considered.
But like, two years is a long time, all.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Right, we're running over, way over. Anybody want to make
any predictions or or is that something no one wants
to do.

Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
It's a tough field this year. Some years I go
in there and go, yeah, I think this is going
to win. Other years, I think it's wide open, and
this is one of the wide open years.

Speaker 5 (01:09:13):
I got no idea how I'm going to vote, much
less anybody else.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
Well said no Crystal Ball Mark not a bit no, but.

Speaker 5 (01:09:22):
I will say the one thing that surprised me when
the list was put together that the Super Outback didn't
make it into the list of the year's best, because
I would have thought that I had it on my list.
I guess that's all I'll say. Yeah, I haven't triven
it yet, but again, it's a significant vehicle.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
I did too exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:09:40):
I thought.

Speaker 6 (01:09:41):
I think the design change maybe maybe a little more polarizing,
and people didn't like that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
So see, you need to predict.

Speaker 4 (01:09:50):
I'm not going to predict us. Crystal Ball is totally clouded.
Educate ball, educate to get Paul says, strike again later.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Y all right, all right, so we're later, We're late.
I want to thank Mark and Greg and Jeff for
joining us today. It certainly was a lively discussion of cars,
and we don't do that often enough, so I want
to thank you for doing that. Thank you, so everyone,
thank you for your time today, and we will be

(01:10:20):
back next week. So take care.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
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