November 17, 2023 • 55 mins
Episode 159: Arky Shea and Joel C. Cordes detail Anthony Edwards' evolution and how it propelled the Minnesota Timberwolves to such a strong start. They also break down how Kyrie Irving's sacrifices have helped the Dallas Mavericks while wondering if Russell Westbrook can do the same for the James Harden-ed L.A. Clippers. Draymond Green's headlock, the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers also make this yet another fun episode of Basketball by Association!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome into Basketball by Association. Iclick record a little too quickly. My
name is Arkie She that is theever dapper and hoghy quoft. Mister joelsey
Court is Joel. Hello, sir, it's not working, everybody, It's
just it's not working. That's okay, it doesn't have to wait. Let's
just go home. I'm gonna takemy ball and go home. Ah,
(00:22):
come on, are you requesting atrade already? I'm requesting a trade,
and once I get to my newlocation, I will promptly request a trade
three weeks after saying this is whereI want to end my career. You
know, I appreciate, uh thatsentiment, but I also appreciate that.
(00:44):
You know, I'm gonna try toget as much bang from my buck as
I can on the return. Soyou're not going away for ten cents on
the dollar I traded for a copymachine or nothing. I am bringing you
Matt Degastino or bos just just throwingthose out there, those trade mates,
pizzas I'm throwing out there for you. So just hey, man, if
that means I get to go workat NBA TV or TNT, is that
(01:11):
really hurting me? Say? ListenI'm not trying to hurt you. I'm
just trying not to hurt me.That's the that's the goal here. Like
you, you're just a side piecein this. That's great, Joe.
We haven't spoken in about seven oreight minutes. Since then. The Celtics
have gone down multiple times, justlike you predicted, as well as the
Missus Grizzlies are quite hot. They'vewon two games in two weeks. Uh
(01:34):
So, mister Cordyce, before weget to all that and something else,
how about you tell me who thishere podcast is named after. All right,
well, first you gotta guess thisis episode. But there is no
NBA player. There's no NBA playerwho has logged one hundred and fifty nine
career playoff games. But because thisis our show and we can do whatever
the hell we want, we're gonnaretroactively go back to one fifty eight.
(01:57):
We misnaming that at least along thisconvention for the last show because we were
honoring Walter Davis Rest in peace.So there are two guys in NBA history
who have logged one hundred and fiftyeight career playoff games. One is Klay
Thompson, who is in a massive, massive, massive slump right now.
And I love Clay. I don'tknow how you feel about him, but
I love Klay Thompson. I hopehe breaks out of it, but I'm
(02:17):
not going to name it after him, because this other guy is just that
much more accomplished. There's no waywe can get around this. And I'm
ninety nine percent sure we have nevernamed an episode for this gentleman yet,
could be wrong. Who cares,It's our show. We can do what
we want. So this guy isa Hall of Famer. He's a ten
time All Star. He was ninetyfour, ninety five's Rookie of the Year,
(02:42):
but that was a co Rookie ofthe Year. That was the only
time in NBA history that's ever happened. He's a five time Assist champ,
six time All NBA. He wonan NBA Championship in twenty eleven. He
is a nine time All Defensive player. He's on the seventy fifth Anniversary team.
He will most likely still be onthe hundredth anniversary team if and when
(03:07):
that comes about, and he guessesyet otherwise, we'll get into career stops
and that sort of thing. Togive you some clues. A man,
I'm don't even think ninety four ninetyfive. Who who's coming into the league
right then? So, uh givegive me the first, give me the
first team. He went to theDallas Mavericks, where he played amongst a
(03:31):
rising trio of youngsters that was atleast the way the NBA wanted to position
it about to take the league bystorm. They were across all the magazine
covers, they were on a lotof the video games, that sort of
thing. It never actually panned outin wins and losses, but all three
went on to have very good careers, just not as good as this guy.
(03:51):
Can you give me one of theyoungsters there that they with the Mavericks
in then out and that'll be thelast clo asso? So one of his
running mates who had a stellar career, Jamal Mashburn, though it was truncated
by injuries, especially at the beginning. Jimal mash Fern. The other guy.
Now, if I do this,you're only have only one to choose
(04:13):
from. So uh no, no, don't don't tell me the name,
just tell me the team. Well, no, the first the other guy,
that's I'm sorry, sorry, theco m v P. I should
say his first team. Oh,the co m VP was it will help
me narrow my years down. TheDetroit Pistons. Okay, uh and wearer
(04:34):
of one of the most iconic jerseysof the era that Curists and Detroit hate.
But oh, the Flaming Stallion,like, yeah, the flaming piece
stallion, hot Ron Stallion, whichI do have hanging down. I get
to see it. I get tosee it almost every week. It's not
(04:55):
up there behind you right now.It's not up there. No, it's
actually in a case to rearrange thingshere during the off season. So yeah,
the cases are in a different spotnow, Okay. So that's prop
that ninety four in This is goodcontent. By the way. People just
love to sit and wait to seewhat are you they's they or may not
(05:19):
know it now Okay, I'm tryingto figure it out. Okay, this
is our show. Okay, yeah, it is all right. Five.
So we're probably that those Pistons,Okay, Okay, I'm thinking Grant Hill
is the Piston. Yeah, yep, okay, okay, So he's one
of the co MVPs. Dagum whois CO Rookie of the Year, Co
(05:43):
Rookie of the Year you're right,co Rookie of the Year. So who
co rookie? That seems like suchan interesting tidbit of like history that I
should know. The second place thisgentleman played after oddly enough, so he
was that good as team was thatlauded. But he was traded from the
Dallas Mavericks after two and a halfseasons and went on to play in Phoenix
(06:10):
for five years, went to NewJersey. Okay, I thought he was
younger than this. Okay, sothat's Jason Kidd, right, it's Jason
Kidd. Yes, went back toDallas, won the title seven kind of
guy. That's that's that got thatwrung, finished out with your New York
Knicks, and he is the ownerof one of my favorite insulting nicknames of
(06:35):
all times. Early on in hiscareer, he was referred to as Ason
Kid by fellow NBA players. Whybecause he's got no j That's pretty solid,
all right. So this is theHall of Fame soon to be Hall
of Fame head coach Jason Kidd,episode who also happened to play a couple
(06:56):
of years in the league before becomingone of the best head coaches in the
league ever. Ever, so again, nobody spills a drink better than Jason
Kidd. Nobody. Listen. Youmay not like this worse, but I'm
gonna stay outleutd. I think Jasonkids a prick, so I hope he
hears this episode. I don't likehim. I've never found anything likable about
that guy, and I you're notthe You're not the only person who shared
(07:20):
that sentiment throughout his career, andhe didn't get off to the greatest start
head coaching wise, when he waslike maschinating, not behind the scenes but
right out front and center for otherpeople's jobs. And how do think he
was? He was a prick tothe media with like when when he when
he started becoming I don't know ifhe just had a chip on his shoulder
or whatever it was. But Ijust don't like that guy. So that's
(07:43):
all right. He's not Kyrie levels. Although I will say this about about
Jason Kidd, you know you gotyour money's worth watching the guy on the
court as an assist man. Thoughhis teams didn't always win until late in
his career, he was probably miscastas like a first or second option when
really he should have been a deliverysystem. But if you're going to be
taking that eye in your Rookie ofthe Year, that's the way it goes.
(08:07):
And this I will say about JasonKidd as a coach, he has
not been afraid to experiment with completelyagainst the grain ideas. Sometimes they're so
out there and they don't work,and other times he's been onto something,
whether it's been inverting the offense.When he was in Brooklyn and he played
with his guards inside and his bigsoutside. In Milwaukee, they tried to
(08:30):
build that massive frontline in the earlydays of you know, Yannis joining and
they had three seven footers up frontand the guards were all along. It
was insane. But he's he's donesome really interesting things that he's thrown at
the wall in addition to his drinks. All right, so Jakeson Kidd,
I hope you do you proud ofthis episode or not, I don't care,
(08:50):
screw you. Here's here's the episode. Anyway, Jill, I'm gonna
have been outside of the box forsome news that was reported this morning by
christ Haines of Yahood. And Idon't know if you've seen this, uh,
maybe not, maybe not. Thiswas probably reported before we started recording
about two hours before we started recording, he's reporting that Russell Westbrook have you
(09:11):
heard of that guy? Oh?I did, I did see this report.
Yeah, Russell Westbrook has requested thatthe Clippers let him come off the
bench and start with the starting fiveto try to build some continuity. Uh.
That's a very sweet request of him. I don't know if you've noticed.
It's about the Clippers. They arewindless since they got the big man
(09:33):
that that Steve Palmer wanted to beable to get over here. Objectively terrible
is the word you're searching for you? Yeah, I think that is a
fair thing. They've will six ina row. They're three and seven,
and Russell Westbrook is like, canI help? Can I get in the
lineup to help you out a littlebit? So they were three and one
before they traded Forrarden. So,Joe, I just want to get your
(09:54):
thoughts on that before because that's someof the more pressing and breaking maybe not
pressing but breaking as we start thispodcast. I do you think it's interesting
that, you know, Big Russis like, hey, you know,
I can I help you a littlebit? So good on you, Russell
Westbrook. And it does exhibit achange in Russ that has been at work
(10:15):
for a couple of years now.It was evident last year, it was
evident the year before, even whenhe was in Washington, And this is
I think him coming to grips withwhere he is in his career and probably
having seen some writing on the wall, you know, as things were deteriorating,
things didn't go the way they weresupposed to in La with the Lakers,
(10:39):
just I think understanding that he can'tdo it all. He needs to
fit in that. Russell Westbrook isno longer a system, but he needs
to fit into a system. Areyou listening, James Harden? So,
Russ, by all accounts, hasbeen a great teammate over the last couple
of stops, even with the Lakerswhere things weren't always going the way that
he had hoped. But he's genuinelybeen supportive of other players, instructive of
(11:03):
younger players. The chippiness that RussellWestbrook had against seemingly everyone has started to
diminish a little bit. He's notplaying, you know, less hard or
anything like that. It's just he'sbeing less of a prick. To take
away the quote you had with JasonKidd, and Russ absolutely was one through
much of his career, especially asthings were winding down with Okac as he
(11:26):
got to Houston, as he startedto turn through some of these teams.
So I appreciate the gesture. Idon't know if it solves anything, but
I like where Russ is, wherehis head is at. They've got a
lot of mouths to feed in thatstarting unit, especially with James Harden now
arriving a guy who is not asystem and will not fit into your system
(11:46):
because he is a system. Well, guess what, James Harden, The
system's broken. You are a playerin decline. Teams cannot build around you
anymore or cater to you. Buthere's Russ catering to you. But to
put Terrence Man, a guy whowill not a shot here or there,
but really is more of like afive tool role player into that starting lineup,
allows James Harden a few more shots, Paul George a few more shots,
(12:09):
Kawhi Leonard a few more. Doesit also take some of the onus
off of Russ to go, Hey, whatever problems we're having, this is
not my fault. I'm not inthe starting lineup anymore. Maybe maybe,
but I like the gesture. Ilike the effort, and it shows something
where the coach didn't have to cometo him and sell him on it.
(12:30):
He didn't have to sit in amedia session and do the old passive aggressive
Well, he's the coach and I'mnot so if that's what the coach wants,
I guess that's what I'll do.He didn't have to do that,
so I appreciate that. We'll seehow much it fixes, because I don't
think Russ is the problem. It'sJames Harden. But he did just get
there, and there is a lotof stuff to work out, and they
(12:52):
did get him for basically next tonothing, a bunch of role players who
they really were no longer using atthis point. The only thing I'm a
little worried about. Russell Westbrook goesto the bench. He's gonna play point
guard. Terrence Man goes into thestarting lineup, and now Bones Highland does
what slots back to the third stringpoint guard. He's too talented for that.
(13:13):
He's good, he's a gunner,he's undisciplined at times. You probably
can play Bones and Rust together,but both of those players are better with
the ball in their hands. Butagain, so is James Harden, and
here you go, you've added onetoo many of the same type of players
to the Clippers and it's costing them. Yeah, it's I thought, listen,
(13:35):
I was the one that was sortof advocating to get him out of
Philly to Los Angeles because I thoughtthat's where he wanted the most to be
able to go, so it's theonly place that would take him. Right.
Well, it did turn out tothat be that at that point,
but also thought that Philly, like, if there was any chance to get
out from under him, it wasgoing to have to go put it to
(13:56):
to to the Clippers, and it'sjust not working. And again we're,
what nineteen games into the season,far from technically over. But there are
a lot of big holes there.You see when there are all on the
court at the same time, andlisten with Russ together, like with Russ
(14:18):
as well as James Harden, aswell as Kawhi Lennard and Paul George.
I don't know the numbers, butthe handful of times I've definitely paid attention
to it. Uh, it seemslike it's more efficient, it seems like
it's the best option as far aswhat they have to be able to be
(14:39):
more competitive and to be able topull out close games like against Denver.
But I don't know it was skepticalbeyond. I think James Harden just makes
me skeptical in general anymore, justbecause of all the focus that he takes
away from sort of a team.And it's weird, like we defeated him
for so long and he still getsthose like nice assists numbers and I don't,
(15:03):
I don't. I can't square itin my brain. It's just one
of those weird like you know whenyou have a puzzle piece that's supposed to
fit in the spot, but maybethe manufacturer cut it a little too big,
or or the dog chewed off oneof the little numbers at the edge.
Yeah yeah, and you're like,it's just supposed to fit right,
Like, I don't, I don'tquite. It doesn't quite work in my
brain. Puzzle, And then thatpuzzle piece has the gall to tell you
(15:28):
I don't fit into this puzzle.The puzzle fits around me. That's right,
that's right. Hey, let's talkabout a very cold team right now,
and that's your Minnesota Timberwolves. Theyare losers of one in a row
right now. Uh, and uh, Joel, I got it. Because
it's your team. We have toask you first, how good is this
(15:48):
team? Man better than expected?That's that's the mint that I could take.
That's the bare minimum. But dude, this is a formidable tam.
I saw a report that, sothere's a you have all these everybody has
like a computer that can project things, right, but when something stands out
it catches my eye. And acouple of weeks ago I remember seeing that.
(16:11):
I think it was NBC Boston,right, had the Celtics playing in
the finals. That's not shocker,but their opponent was your Timberwolves. Yeah,
I get out with that. Asmuch as I love Minnesota. That's
the computer and stuff. But sofar, through the first ten games of
the season, it's shown that they'vebeen a pretty good team, and maybe
(16:32):
the computer believed in the more thanmost people in their eye test did.
So to understand this year's Timberwolves,we have to go back two years and
I love this setup. Yeah,yeah, this is the classic Joel Cordis.
I'm gonna, you know, goway too far down the rabbit hole.
But two years ago, that teamhad Jared Vanderbilt, Patrick Beverley,
(16:53):
Tory and Prince had just arrived,Kyle Anderson had just arrived, and you
had a rookie and Anthony Edwards,and the goal was to surround him with
veterans, to have guys with highmotors who could compensate for the fact that
Karl Anthony Towns, his motor andhis focus will weane at times. And
(17:14):
that team played with an edge.They had that classic first round series against
the Grizzlies. The Wolves kind oftook almost almost like a Grizzlies junior approach,
where they were happy to play theheel. They were happy to be
loud, obnoxious, cocky and goafter and they were a fun team.
Last year they traded for Rudy Gobert. They lose a lot of the motor
guys. They bring in Mike Conleyas well, and they just didn't have
(17:38):
a motor last year. They hadno real identity. They were trying to
make it all work with the bigs. Gobert looked unsure. Anthony Edwards was
extremely unsure through the first twenty fivegames about where he would fit in what
he could do. He was floatingaround on offense. This is crazy,
but Edwards went what like the firstdozen games last year without a dunk.
(17:59):
Anthony Edwards went like a dozen gameswithout a single dunk. It wasn't working,
Yeah, and then then Karl AnthonyTowns comes back for a little while
they try to make it work.They just never clicked this year. With
a fall off season and a chancefor everybody to kind of look in the
mirror and some of the trades thatwere made, Edwards has stepped up as
the unequivocal leader of this team.Karl Anthony Towns has been very fine in
(18:26):
letting that happen, but Edwards isnot leading on offense. Edwards is leading
with defensive intensity and hustle and justan absolute dog mentality. I think something
that he saw in Patrick Beverley acouple of years ago and wasn't really sure
how to deploy yet, and allof a sudden it's there. And this
is going to be hyperbolic, butthe broadcasters are starting to point this out
(18:48):
too. And it's not just onthe Timberwolf side. It's not just the
Homer thing. Anthony Edwards on bothends is playing with an aggression that is
reminiscent of a Kobe Bryant or aMichael Jordan about just trying to embarrass everyone.
If you go back to that Celticsgame where he takes over and overtime,
you see him locking up Jason Tatum, putting Jason Tatum on the ground,
(19:15):
stealing the ball, tying it upand standing over him like who are
you MVP? And this is multipletimes of this now where he is going
head to head and it's not justhey, Jaden McDaniels, you're O a
league defender and he is good,he's rangy, he's getting better. They
extended him. He's part of thereason the Wolves are better. But Edwards
is stepping up to take the bestopponent at a lot of junctures in the
(19:40):
game and saying I want to guardthat guy, and instead of just holding
his own, he is being incrediblydisruptive. And now on the other end,
you take that with a guy whoclearly can get to the cup,
who is an above average three pointshooter, the light bulb is starting to
go on about where to get pointsand watch Anthony Edwards in the paint because
he's got the Kobe MJ fadeaway jumperfrom the baseline now and he's been deploying
(20:03):
that with some regularity. It's coming. You add in the fact that Gobert
is very comfortable with what's happening,and the defense now is funneling towards him.
Towns understands better how to fit nextto Gobert. I still think Towns
is the weak link, but I'veseen a lot of progress from Towns on
the offensive end, and even defensively, he's continuing to compete. Then you've
(20:26):
got other guys in Nikhil, AlexanderWalker's a plus defender, Mike Connley still
is. Jaden McDaniels needs to makean all defensive team. Obviously, he
can't get thrown out of games likehe did the other night with the Warriors,
but he should be on an alldefensive team. Kyle Anderson above average
defender. They've got him, andthose guys are following Edwards lead. They're
swarming around the ball, they're flying, they're getting out in transition. They
(20:48):
are fun, but they're fun onthe defensive end first, and that I
think is what the national media hasn'treally picked up on yet. They're saying,
Oh, look, they're the numberone team defensively. Yeah, all
right, we'll see if that's sustainable. Oh, but they're so fun because
they have Anthony Edwards and Cat andGobert. No, no, no,
no, they're fun because of theway they're locking people down and that hustle
(21:10):
is then turning into points. Socan they be a championship team? No?
Is this sustainable? I think so? And what it also signifies as
Anthony Edwards going from star of ateam or rising star of a team to
now unequivocal alpha, a one theguy on a team, but also one
(21:33):
of those players that the league wantsto celebrate and showcase nationally. That has
not happened to the Timberwolves since KevinGarnett. I think that last point is
a great one. But I dothink also talking about this next step,
if you had a player that wasgoing to be you know, some guys
(21:55):
even unless sure, unless you Lebronright or or Kobe, you know,
your first couple of years you're figuringout the league. Kobe, I mean
remember Kobe fit had a couple ofrough years too. No, no,
it's it's fair, it's fair.But I mean as far as here's the
expectation for you, like, it'scompletely different level for Kobe and for for
(22:18):
Lebron coming in, you get it. Maybe a couple of years to sort
of you just can't still put upnumbers and sort of figure out where you
land, and then you start toget your feet under you and then you
find out can you make that nextstep? And it feels like Anthony Edwards
has taken a massive step early onthis season. He is a force,
(22:40):
and we've talked about him for acouple of years on his podcast about how
funny he is to watch and howenergetic he is, and how he is
the guy that the league's gonna needto get behind and pushed soon because he
is the type of guy every bitathletically on the on the court, like
what a John Moran was, whatNBA was, want to be able to
push with him. He's got everybit of that in tangible, that it
factor, as well as being ableto play on the court and be super
(23:03):
good. I'm so impressed with howmuch it's flashed bright early on this season
because I want to talk about anotherteam in just a second that has the
opposite going for them. But duringtheir winning going on early in the season,
they've been a couple of pretty darkgood teams. I mean, they've
been able to put down Denver andpretty impressively. They've been able to put
(23:25):
down Boston and fairly and fairly impressively, like this is this is a team
that isn't just kicking up, kickingdown the potato tomato cans. They have
the hardest schedule in the NBA.To start in those first ten games,
they are really impressive coming out thegate. And I don't yeah, you're
you're right. The sustainability, Idon't know, maybe it looks like it
(23:45):
can be. The pieces feel likethat they're kind of melting together at the
right time or not, I shouldsay right time. But to begin this
season, after they had that transitionalphase, it seemed like figuring out who
worked well with what and why.But yeah, there are really you know,
we were going to talk about someof the teams that are fun to
watch. That's a fun team towatch, man, I'm with you.
(24:07):
That is a very enjoyable team.I've got two of their games so far.
I got the one against Boston mostmost recently, and I was really
impressed that honestly was one of theand to do it at home, and
yes, the Celtics were missing DerekWhite. But I just want to throw
this in there because we don't havea lot of these in our franchise history.
That was one of these signature gamesin Minnesota franchise history as far as
(24:29):
a regular season game. That's reallyfun that people will talk about because that
was one of those moments where yougo, Yep, this Anthony Edwards kid,
Yep, everybody on board, let'sgo, let's go. That's right.
I didn't shrink in a big timemoment against the big time team,
against the team that wasn't going throughtheir huge losing streak. They're the one
(24:49):
that caused a huge two game losingstreak. They started it. Yeah,
that's right. You had so littlefaith the last time we spoke that Boston
would lose and one of those teamswould be to your minister, Timberwolves,
I think of you. I justwant to say one more thing on On
Edwards real quick. The difference tome is that the light bulb has gone
(25:11):
on. And this speaks to yourpoint about it takes a couple of years
for most players, and it didfor Lebron, and it did for Kobe
even too. It did for MJas well. Take all that, Yeah,
but to take all that talent andthe the opportunity and the expectations and
for the game to slow down andfor them to go. I know who
I am, what I can do, and I know how best to deploy
(25:33):
this within my team while letting otherguys eat get them going. I'm gonna
need their help, but it stillhas to come back to me and I
have to take over. I stillhave to be the leader that guys will
rally around. When Edwards first cameinto the league, he would throw himself
into the lane with wild abandon,similar to John Morant, you know,
Derrick Rose whatever. That would worksometimes and it wouldn't, And there'd be
(25:57):
the times you're like, dude,just take the pull up, just take
the floater. You don't need todo that. Then last year there was
the uncertainty of where do I fit? Like I spoke, he would just
float around the perimeter, not knowinghow he was supposed to be moving.
With Gobert and Karl Anthony Towns.That was as much a coaching thing as
it was an Anthony Edwards thing,where it's like, hey, if you
(26:18):
don't know that, then be thatmuch better on the defensive end, get
rebounds, do the little things.He didn't have that yet, and this
year what you see as a differentguy who's figured it out, and he's
rocking the original Timberwolves uniforms, thewhite ones that have come back. It's
reminiscent on some of these dunks ofhow JR. Ryder was like the first
(26:38):
Timberwolves player that many people nationally evenknew about because Jaya Ryder won the dunk
contest in those unis, and allof a sudden, the Wolves are relevant
again, and you've got a guardAnthony Edwards is already the best guard in
Timberwolve's history, like he already isthree years in the best guard the Wolves
have ever had in those uniforms,and is a huge movement from the Minnesota
(27:00):
broadcasters and a lot of people inMinnesota go, you know what, let's
turn the clock back and make thoseuniforms the full time ones going forward.
They're clean, they're fresh, they'reunbusy like the rest of these Let's just
do it. Yeah, some ofmost of these older uniforms are just way
too much from Minnesota. Not thatway, I agree. I'm not against
(27:21):
that other team I wanted to bringup that's just barely ahead of the standing
is the Dallas Mavericks and They've beenreally good as far as winning so far
the season. In fact, they'reone of those teams that when we talk
about fun teams to watch, they'repretty fun. They put up a whole
bunch of points. They're second inthe league in scoring. Luke is playing
out of his mind to be ableto start off this season. But my
question to you is that is thisthe Dallas Mavericks team I can expect or
(27:48):
is this the Dallas Mavericks team that'sbeing a little bit of a supernova right
now? Because if you up anddown their schedule, they've been great teams.
They're being a whole bunch of awhole bunch of cellar and teams are
trying to figure out their identity rightnow. So yeah, capitalize on what
you can if you're that much betterthan him. But is that because they
are that much better than him?Where? Where? Where do you feel
(28:11):
in this Dallas team? Yeah?I mean I had picked Dallas to potentially
be the worst team in the West, and you had him awfully far down
there as well too. There's afew things at play. It's the week
schedule. But Derek Lively the secondwho were like, oh, they're starting
a rookie at center. How's thatgonna go? Is that a sign of
(28:33):
desperation? Is that a sign oflike how shallow this team is? He's
raw, He's got a lot tolearn yet, but man, is he
a nice lob partner for Luka Doncic. He's already doing some of the little
things. The kid hits the glass. He's not raw mentally, like he
understands the game. But I thinkputting it all together will take a couple
of years. Any team that's stillstarting Derek Jones Junior. I know he
(28:57):
had a nice game the other night. That to me, she comes off
as a sign of desperation because howmany starting jobs has that guy lost?
The bench doesn't look like it wasvery deep. But Tim Hardaway Junior is
flame throwing off the bench right nowlike six man of the Year, locked
down if he continues this pace.Luca is outleting at all times and looking
(29:22):
down court. Not just getting intothe offense and making something flashy happen,
but he is outletting. They aremoving, They're getting down. They went
from one of the slowest paced teamslast year. In fact, they might
have been the slowest. They weredown in the bottom three. I know
Miami was down there and so forth, but they're outletting the Kyrie has figured
out how to fit in and hereagain is another sign of you know,
(29:45):
like Russell Westbrook, Kyrie's got alot of knocks against him, but so
far this year he and Luca figureseem like they figured it out. Kyrie
is a shot maker, He isthe secondary ball handler. He is not
the offense initiator. But Kyrie Irvingis running the floor on fast breaks,
Luca is finding him on outlet passes. They've got Grant Williams, who we
(30:08):
liked a lot in Boston in asupporting role and it was like, how's
he gonna fit as a starter.He's been phenomenal, except in a shooting
slump over the last couple of games, but really helpful for them. So
this is not a team, Archiethat's gonna win three times for every one
loss, which is the ratio they'reat right now. I think this is
a slightly above five hundred team oncethey get up against those more talented,
(30:30):
deeper teams. Any type of injuryto this Mavericks roster is big time damaging
because the depth just isn't there.But I like the way they're playing,
and they've had a cohesiveness that Ireally doubted was going to be there based
on what we saw last year.And this is kudos to Jason Kidd,
(30:52):
to Luca, to Kyrie for makingthose adjustments at the top, and I
like what I see out of thatgroup where you go, oh, okay,
Luke and Kyrie might actually be ableto play together long term if Kyrie's
head is on straight and he's coolwith this type of role because Lucas gonna
make him look good. And Kyriestill is a phenomenal shot maker, right,
(31:14):
you know, and a phenomenal secondaryball handler that hasn't gone away.
Yeah, he is putting up essentiallythe same numbers he's put up every year
that he's been with but he's doingit in like five or six fewer minutes
than he's sort of ever played,which is kind of interesting to sort of
pay attention to. In the firstnine to ten games of the season.
Is what sort of you know thisturns into? Right, because I'm not
(31:40):
one hundred percent sure where I feelon Dallas. Yet. You hadn't finished
in thirteenth in the West, Ihadn't finished tenth in the West, so
right now, seconds better than allof those. They won't be there when
it's all said and done, butthey probably aren't going to be thirteenth or
tenth. You know, I justdon't know how good this team is.
And I'm not eighth or ninth fieldsrealistic, doesn't it? Let me let
(32:05):
me look at their schedule real quicknessto sort of tell you the types of
teams that they're they're beating up on, So Orlando, Charlotte, they're losing
the teams like Denver, Chicago,Memphis, the Clippers, the Pelicans who
were five hundred dish, they splitwith them. The Wizard. Orlando does
have a winning record, but that'sreally the only other one you've named so
(32:25):
far. Yes, So, likewe're I'm trying to figure out if they're
beating the teams there that they wereworse than them because those teams are just
worse than them, or if they'rebeating them because they're so much better than
those other teams, And I can't. I don't know if nine or ten
(32:45):
games gives me enough of a fieldto sort of have a great grasp on
that, Because you're right, theydo look a little more cohesive, you
know, I'll be straight with you, haven't watched a full Dallas game yet,
but every time I sort of seetheir scores come up and so watch
some of their highlights and look theywent again. They're like they did,
just keep winning. This is theteam last year that's losing all those games
down the stretch, losing against thefive hundred or just right at five hundred
(33:08):
teams. So to be winning themis definitely a step up. I just
don't know how much better they arethan everyone else. And maybe they're a
lot better. Maybe they're a topfour seed. You know, we thought
they should have been a playoff teamlast year. Yeah, and then I
don't know how the Kyrie trade submarinedthem, But that last stretch of the
season, You're like, man,this is terrible. I don't know why
(33:28):
it's not working. Maybe it's justhaving more time together. I don't know.
I'm a big believer in the Eyeballtest when it comes to chemistry four
teams. Are they excited for eachother? Do they celebrate each other's victories?
Do they high five? Are theveterans talking to guys or they're receptive
(33:50):
to that? And that is somethingthat I haven't seen from Kyrie Irving in
a long time. He's been aloofright ever since he went to Boston,
very aloof from what was going on. Yeah, he'd get his numbers,
but just didn't look like he wasreally a part of those teams. And
in Cleveland, it's hard to saythey were bad until Lebron got there,
and then it was Lebron's team andhe never really paid attention to Kyrie and
(34:12):
the and Kyrie became more aloof amaybe for maybe the beginning of Lebron that
wasn't too bad, but ye atthe end it was definitely. You know,
Kyrior felt like this is in myteam. And I will say it's
been three games since I've seen Dallas, so if this has changed, and
you're a Mavericks fan, forgive meif I'm being an accurate, But in
the games that I've watched so farwith Dallas, Kyrie's body language is completely
(34:34):
different. And this is where againI speak about maturity. He is in
everybody's ear. He's part of thepregame huddle, he's leading pregame huddles.
He is talking to guys, he'spicking guys up off the floor, he's
high fiving, he's engaged, andit looks like he's having fun and he's
part of the game. He's partof the team, and that's great to
(34:58):
see for a guy who needed thatso badly in order to save his career.
And again, is this just himputting lipstick on a pig and the
same old Kyrie is going to comeback out. You could have said that
if he was still fighting for hiscontract. But he got his contract,
right, he got his contract,so I did not think he would get
(35:20):
it no Dallas that he did sono, And I would have doubted it
the same way if it was acontract year. But it's not. And
so I'm a little bit more ofa believer in what I'm seeing. And
you know, Kyrie, as muchas we bashed you, good on you.
And if you can be a bighelp to this Dallas team that needs
as much help as it can getin order to keep Luca long term and
(35:42):
to play to their potential, thatwould be phenomenal if it happens. I
will tell you this, I donot believe in Kyrie completely. I still
have ill feelings, but I willallow for you know, I will allow
(36:02):
for the fact of this. Let'slet's give more of a sample size in
between sort of you know, gettinghis way out of one place into another,
into another the way last year.Submarines still don't quite know why that
was. In the beginning of thisseason, I need more from them to
think that he's gonna be that greatteammate. But I do think it's fair
(36:22):
that you pointed out so far he'sbeen that guy's been very into the team
day to day, in every singlegame and in those good moments, which
which is definitely a difference from whatwe were seeing when he was having his
aloofness, Like maybe maybe he hadan EMO phase, right, maybe he
just wanted to the haircut to letus know it's not It's not really the
(36:44):
you know, burning sage into thelocker room emo I was thinking of.
But maybe he just had to figuresome stuff out to be more cohesive with
people as opposed to just sort ofbe this philosophizer, you know, they
had to be able to speak onthese greater issues that he probably had very
little knowledge about. To your pointabout why the submarine last year, I
think it was lack of cohesion,both by the arrival of such a new
(37:06):
piece and a type of piece thatisn't a perfect fit with Lucas, so
there was a lot to get through. Then you had the injuries. It's
late in the season. That wasa Dallas team that never really had much
of an identity to begin with,and now you're asking them to shape a
different identity on the fly. It'sso similar to Minnesota and trying to fit
Go Bear in towns together and AnthonyEdwards not knowing what to do. NBA
(37:29):
players are just like people. Wewant certainty, we want predictability, We
want to understand how we fit intothings and an off season, especially if
everybody's heads are on straight, andespecially when you can get that hierarchy of
whose role is what, it makesa whale of a difference. And I
do think that's the difference for Dallasnow and Minnesota too. I want to
(37:50):
talk about something really interesting right afterthis, and I know we don't have
a ton of time to be ableto get in all this, but I
do want to just briefly, ifyou'll just tell me why Draymond is choking
players on the court in twenty twentythree. Uh, the same guy that's
very interested into, uh, youknow, kicking people in the ding dongs.
Uh? Is you know, we'vesaid a thousand times this is Draymond
(38:15):
Green is an enforcer. That's reallywhat it was. And I don't have
a problem with him defending his guy, but I do thought I would think
it was kind of interesting that itwas pretty quick on. By the way,
that was after your Minnesota team wasup beating the snun out of him
for a couple of games. Uhso sweeping that One of those wasn't the
playing tournament right? One of those, Candon's the playing tournament game. The
(38:36):
second one where people got ejected wasthe play in tournament game, right?
So? Or the end season tournamentnot the play in Yeah, we I
think people know what the point Again, if bones Hyland doesn't know, none
of us know. By the way, did you see what Steph Curry said
about the playing tournament? He said, he said, you know, if
(38:58):
people would just read it pretty simpleto understand, and then he went on
for like thirty forty seconds trying toexplain. He's like, you know,
everyone plays in these groups, andthen the groups played into a bracket,
and then a bracket breaks off andgoes into you know, the tournament in
Vegas, and then games that getmade up at the who don't make it
into the bracket get made up,and he's like, it's just very simple.
Like, dude, it's spake youforty five seconds to be like it's
(39:19):
super simple. It's not that simple. But anyway, it really depends on
how familiar with soccer one is.If you're familiar with soccer, it's simple.
If you're not, then it's gonnabe something new to you. But
it was just like, you guysare so dumb. Let me spend forty
five seconds explaining this to you.It's very simple. Uh yeah, So
(39:40):
a punk move by Draymond I thinkthe Five Games is appropriate if you're gonna
restrain Rudy Gobert, who's rushing inthere, not swinging, not pushing,
not shoving. Rudy Gobert was kindof rushing in there to separate people and
go. Bear and Draymond Green inthe game beforehand had been going at each
They're a bunch. They are notfriends. The dates back to the Utah
(40:02):
days for Gobert and and you knowall the time that they would run into
Golden State. They don't like eachother, so there's there's not good blood.
The previous game had been rough.The first two minutes had been rough.
It was physical, but yeah,there's no need for a guy who's
coming to separate to choke him toessentially jump on his back piggyback style and
(40:27):
try to wrestle him to the ground, like if you're trying to restrain him,
grab him by the waist, grabhim by the arm, shove him
out of the way, get athroat. The throat it's basketball. But
again, to do it with hisback turned, it's a cheap shot move.
The guy can't defend himself. It'sit's ridiculous, like that's that's the
(40:50):
worst long time to get it tolet go too. I think it's one
of the worst looks for Draymond thathe's had in a career filled with worst
looks. This is worse than onguys or the nut punches or stuff like
that, because again, this comesafter all those things have already happened,
and you know the league is lookingfor it, and to do it that
much out in the open to aguy who up to that point has not
(41:15):
shown himself to be an aggressor.He's not taking a swing at your guy,
Klay Thompson. If Rudy Gobert isin there throwing punches. Yes,
grab him, you know, chokehim and restrain him. That's different.
That's not what Gobert was doing.It's not no, and he wasn't.
He wasn't showing that that was acase. He's rushing in there. So
(41:36):
again, shove him out of theway, get a one game suspension,
don't get him between them, geta no game suspension, but maybe get
kicked out, like don't take justjump on the guy from the back and
then try to choke him. LikeI was a little surprised it was just
a five game suspension, to behonest with you, Like I thought that
was looking at like you started probablyten and then maybe you negotiate it down
(41:58):
to seven or eight ers something orto start at five. I was especially
with Steve Kerr, was like I'mcool with this, Like like Steve cra
had no problems with it whatsoever.And again no problem with defitting your teammate,
just a little issue starting out goingwith it with the MMA moves.
I think Kerr is okay with itbecause it wasn't ten games. It's like
five we can handle. But Ithink the context plays a big deal there,
(42:22):
Like, yes, Draymond, youshould know better, and because of
the history here, maybe you shouldget more than five. But the heated
nature of the game before, rememberthey had played each other the game before.
This was a back to back,a home a home back to back.
The way the first two minutes startedout showed that it was going to
be a thing. And it wasa bang bang play where go Beart is
(42:45):
rushing into a scrum and Draymond losthis temper, lost his cool. It's
different than you're in the course ofa normal NBA flow of offense and all
of a sudden, Draymond is punchingsomeone in the nuts, or somebody falls
down on the floor in the courseof the game and Draymond steps on him.
Those things completely out of the flow. And while this was not the
(43:06):
appropriate response and is ridiculous, itwas within the flow of what was happening.
So I get five games. Ithink seven or eight might have been
good. But at this point,what message really matters to Draymon. We
don't even know, No, wedon't even messages like you could have been
a thirty game suspension. It's notgonna like change who he is. So
(43:27):
this is just and it's who's alwaysbeen and It's not to say that he's
particularly it's just his style of basketball, his brand, where he went to
college, like all all of thishas made him just this thick, big,
bruising guy who his skill set isessentially a strong, tough enforcer now
at this point, especially since hisskill set is diminished. So yeah,
(43:49):
career like this is kind of whohe is. It's what he does to
sort of earn that paycheck. Andyou know, again, he's defended dudes
that He's defend his dudes, right, like his dudes that he's been going
through with a long long time.It's not like he's defending like, you
know, not that ever be athing like the like like he's not He's
not defending Ruy Hachimura like that orsomething like that or guy Forbid before Jordan
(44:09):
Poole, you know, like youknow, he's defending you know, he's
defending Clays. So all right,last thing I want to get to before
we get out of here. We'vetalked more about the fun teams. I
just want to get your thoughts onthe screenshot of where we are in the
West right now. The top sixteams. If we were going to give
those guaranteed spots going into the playoffsare Denver, Dallas, Minnesota, Okay,
(44:32):
see Houston, Sacramento. So youknow the way the West has always
been speaking of the talking about thesefun teams, like there's like all six
of those teams have been really enjoyableto be able to watch highlights of and
to be able to see some oftheir games. For this is what we
talked about, I think early inthe before the season started, that there's
going to be a lot of interestingmovement at the beginning of the year.
(44:55):
And this West team, the Westof the team that we thought the teams
that we thought we're down and lowlast year and the year before, we're
gonna see some serious contention from them. And so far early on Okay,
se he's giving it to you.Houston's on this well, I think a
five or six game winning streak rightnow. Sacramento they still got the six
(45:15):
spot right now at this point,but they're a team that blew up last
year. Dallas is research coming intothe season. Minnesota popped up a couple
of years ago. Now it seemslike they're back. I mean outside it
didn't really. This has just beena very fun tops each over a little
very unpredictable first ten eleven games ofthe year. Here's what's crazy, though,
(45:37):
as much as things don't feel likewhat we predicted, and they don't,
and it's early and there's a lotof movement, there's really only two
teams in there, Dallas and Houstonthat most people were like, eh,
we'll see about playoffs. You lookat the teams that are not in the
playoff field right now. The Clippers, we went through their problems. The
Grizzlies, they're missing job way morethan we thought, and there were you
(45:57):
know, a lot of us thoughtthey'd still be a playoff team. But
the field really isn't that different fromwhat we predicted. It's just some of
the teams that we thought would bein the play inside of things are sitting
up in the top six right now. And here's where I've just started early.
Those who are playing in are LosAngeles, Phoenix, Golden State,
New Orleans said the Clippers are stilla couple spots below that at this point.
(46:19):
Memphis is the worst team in theWest right now. The Lakers will
figure this out. There was alot to figure out with new phases,
and they've had a ton of injuriesPhoenix has had injuries to their big three.
There's a ton to figure out there. That entire team is almost new,
and you have a new head coach, so they will get that sorted
out. Like you said, Ilike these new teams that are here.
(46:42):
They've all been fun. I thinkthey all have staying power. I think
the field as we're seeing it rightnow is probably what we'll see with the
top ten. But the Clippers shouldget back into it will be a major
disappointment if they don't. But maybewe're about the same, you know,
look at the Eastern Conference in thesame way. And as much as things
(47:02):
are like topsy Turvy's like, ohyeah, Boston affiliate at the top,
Miami's in third. Good for them, but Indy up at four thirty,
one of us predicted that they weregonna be really good. That the most
points in the NBA is easy.They are so than everybody. They are
so fun. And I texted thisto you the other day while watching them,
(47:23):
was like, this may be thefirst time since the ABA days that
the Pacers a team with its namePacer that sounds like it should be a
fast running, kind of fun typeof team. This is the first time
they've been fun since the seventies because, yeah, they've had good teams off
and on throughout their history. Butnone of those good teams, including the
(47:44):
Reggie Miller, Rick Smith's era,you know, uh, Steven Jackson and
Jermaine O'Neill. You get to DannyGranger and Paul George and Lance Stevenson,
David West, those guys, RoyHibbert, none of those were fun teams.
Those were all like gritty, tough, defensive oriented team. This Pacers
team is fun. They're threven andfour and six of their eleven games,
(48:05):
they've scored at least one hundred andthirty points, yeah, fifty plus twice,
and they've given up one hundred andfifty five to Boston they think it
was, and they've given up onehundred and forty three to somebody else along
this. Yeah, so it's justand this is a Rick Carlisle team that's
playing like this. That's what's soamazing about it. But anyway, it's
not just the Pacers. You lookat the top ten, Atlanta, Orlando,
(48:28):
Brooklyn, Cleveland, those were allteams that were like, yeah,
they probably should be in the playoffs. Should Cleveland be that low? No,
will they get it figured out,hopefully, but we all kind of
saw Orlando was ready to maybe bein that fringe group. Toronto is hanging
around there. We don't know ifthey'll be there, but I guess long
story short, as surprising as theWest seems, the East is showing us
(48:52):
too. It's the NBA. Whoyou think is going to be there by
and large usually gets there in thelong run, with one or two aberrations.
Once an any two game season isdone. And as you've pointed out
many times before, in the playoffs, it's even more so it kind of
shakes its way out that who wethought would be there at the end probably
(49:12):
is so super early. But I'menjoying this season so far. It's been
really fun, I have to it. I think as far as shaking it
out, it's just I don't knowif Houston has staying power. But I'm
enjoying what Washington play so far.Okay, See, I think that was
probably of the teams that were thelower end of the play in or not
in the play in last year.When you're considering who might be like a
(49:37):
capable of that, that was probablythe team we thought, you know,
getting Chet home back and Stuf wouldbe like sort of a big deal with
him and he's played really good.That that team is I don't know if
a lot of people know the entiretyof their roster or even more than maybe
a player, like maybe I saythe over under a number of players people
know okay See at one and ahalf, and I think most people will
(49:57):
go under that team is dynamic,that's starting five is fire. Yes they
are. I think if people geta chance to more see the more and
more and more because football season andI know it's absorbs a lot of attention
for people, and I get that. So once you get Christmas Day and
start getting into January February, Ithink you're gonna see a lot of people
(50:22):
look at the Okahoma City team belike have they been like this all year?
Like, yeah, they've kind ofbeen like this all year. They're
a really fun, fun team.That front five is extremely competitive and fun
to watch, and that's an oozingtalent that fits together, just oozing talent.
That's fair. That's one of thepredictions that's worked out well for us,
(50:42):
that okay See. Although I stillwanted to have okay See at okay
See at number I have a numbereleven. So I said, just on
the outside looking in, I'm smart. Here's here's a brain teaser for you,
and I don't I don't know theanswer to this. Do you think
if Chet Holmgren doesn't get hurt lastyear and they've got that starting five together
a year early, you know,with Josh Giddy, who really came on
(51:06):
the scene last year, Shai GildersAlexander, you got Jalen Williams it was
his rookie season, Lou dort andyou had Chet Holmgren to that group.
How many spots better do you thinkthey would have been last year with Chet
already? Because it really feels likehaving his dynamic shooting ability, his shot
blocking ability, his finishing ability hasjust unlocked so much more for everyone else
(51:28):
and is allowing them to shine.And Shai Guilders Alexander is a legit,
legit I don't even want to sayfringe MVP candidate, He's a legit MVP
conversation candidate. And he was lastyear already too. That's a really good
question. Like Lou dort Is isan All NBA defender maybe on third team,
(51:52):
you know, if that existed secondteam at least. I can't say
that it wouldn't have been more positiveright now. To be fair, I
wonder if they jumped three spots lastyear in the West. Maybe that's too
much, Maybe it's only two,but we see how much they've jumped.
And again it's early and they're eightand four. It's four games above five
(52:13):
hundred. But from what we're seeing, yes, the bench is a long
way to go. Everybody on thatteam is young, everybody, so last
going to be nights. That doesn'twork. Last year there were forty and
forty two. So if they win, let's see if they jumped so that
that put them with that they endedup being a seventy. Would they d
been like the nine seed right ofthe play? I think so. Could
(52:37):
they have gained four games been ontip four, but say five games would
have safely gotten them in the topgame, top top six. Yeah,
would they have been five games better? I think they probably would have.
I think so too, And Ithink that's reasonable And that's safely in the
top six from last year. Soyeah, I don't think that's outside of
the question. Yeah, I'm gonnago back and look at their schedule be
(52:59):
like that was a four point lotethat could have been a win. That
just go back and be like,there could have been a whole bunch of
different things here. Granted, let'sget that time machine, let's go fixed
it at homeward. Having the abilityto take that red shirt year we've seen
for a lot of different guys.No, you never want it to happen,
but Joelle and b Blake Griffin aresome of the biggest names for it.
(53:21):
It's been helpful, especially for Biggs, to be able to have a
year to put some weight on theirframe, to get NBA strong, to
watch a lot of film, tobe able to get in and yeah,
they can't do a ton of workwhen they're rehabbing, but to be able
to work on skills, and Ithink the understanding of the game improves a
lot and Chet has benefited from that. So he is a better player now,
(53:45):
I think for having sat that year, but still had he gotten all
that NBA experience last year, who'sto say you're right? And maybe you
know, he has to deal withthis fair share of minus twenty sevens,
which, by the way, theKnicks game to Victor wimbingm a couple of
weeks ago. But anyway, y'alldon't want to talk about that. That
the Knicks or the team that gavehim the worst plus minus of his career
(54:07):
at that point. I'm sure he'llhe'll have his revenge at some point.
I see that, like he cancan have a bad player that. I
think Joel and Bead just had likea minus twenty five the other night,
So it's not it probably won't tainthis entire career. They have. They
happen a lot more often than youthink if you play attention to plus minus,
like so much of that is draggeddown by what locke you're in and
(54:28):
all that sort of you know,I'll leave you with this. Joel Embiid
has only had six times in hiscareer that he's been a plus a minus
twenty five or worse. Three ofthem against the Boston Celtics, and that
was his most recent minus. Ithink he was minus twenty seven or minus
twenty five or something in the game. Well, when you see each other
four times a year, you know, same thing with the Knicks and the
Sixers, like you, you dohave an inside edge. I think against
(54:51):
your divisional opponents, those games takeon a different meaning. It's the same
way like when Minnesota beats Denver andpeople like, oh my gosh, they
beat the Nuggets and it was sucha good game. Yeah it was.
But they see each other four timesa year and they've been playing each other
tough for a few seasons now,Like that's okay, that's those are tune
in worthy games, Like don't missthe Nuggets on the trip. They are
they are too. How about thiswe get to the entire podcast. We
(55:13):
weren't talking about the Celtics or theseventy six ers, or how good the
Miami Heat are right now, orthe Lakers or the or the Lakers.
Not really the Nuggets either too.Look at that, are we talking Hoop's
beyond just the top level of thetopics. That's the dream, baby,
that's the dream. That's what JakeKit deserves on this episode. You prick
(55:34):
just got it's just leave us gothere
Welcome into Basketball by Association. Iclick record a little too quickly. My
name is Arkie She that is theever dapper and hoghy quoft. Mister joelsey
Court is Joel. Hello, sir, it's not working, everybody, It's
just it's not working. That's okay, it doesn't have to wait. Let's
just go home. I'm gonna takemy ball and go home. Ah,
(00:22):
come on, are you requesting atrade already? I'm requesting a trade,
and once I get to my newlocation, I will promptly request a trade
three weeks after saying this is whereI want to end my career. You
know, I appreciate, uh thatsentiment, but I also appreciate that.
(00:44):
You know, I'm gonna try toget as much bang from my buck as
I can on the return. Soyou're not going away for ten cents on
the dollar I traded for a copymachine or nothing. I am bringing you
Matt Degastino or bos just just throwingthose out there, those trade mates,
pizzas I'm throwing out there for you. So just hey, man, if
that means I get to go workat NBA TV or TNT, is that
(01:11):
really hurting me? Say? ListenI'm not trying to hurt you. I'm
just trying not to hurt me.That's the that's the goal here. Like
you, you're just a side piecein this. That's great, Joe.
We haven't spoken in about seven oreight minutes. Since then. The Celtics
have gone down multiple times, justlike you predicted, as well as the
Missus Grizzlies are quite hot. They'vewon two games in two weeks. Uh
(01:34):
So, mister Cordyce, before weget to all that and something else,
how about you tell me who thishere podcast is named after. All right,
well, first you gotta guess thisis episode. But there is no
NBA player. There's no NBA playerwho has logged one hundred and fifty nine
career playoff games. But because thisis our show and we can do whatever
the hell we want, we're gonnaretroactively go back to one fifty eight.
(01:57):
We misnaming that at least along thisconvention for the last show because we were
honoring Walter Davis Rest in peace.So there are two guys in NBA history
who have logged one hundred and fiftyeight career playoff games. One is Klay
Thompson, who is in a massive, massive, massive slump right now.
And I love Clay. I don'tknow how you feel about him, but
I love Klay Thompson. I hopehe breaks out of it, but I'm
(02:17):
not going to name it after him, because this other guy is just that
much more accomplished. There's no waywe can get around this. And I'm
ninety nine percent sure we have nevernamed an episode for this gentleman yet,
could be wrong. Who cares,It's our show. We can do what
we want. So this guy isa Hall of Famer. He's a ten
time All Star. He was ninetyfour, ninety five's Rookie of the Year,
(02:42):
but that was a co Rookie ofthe Year. That was the only
time in NBA history that's ever happened. He's a five time Assist champ,
six time All NBA. He wonan NBA Championship in twenty eleven. He
is a nine time All Defensive player. He's on the seventy fifth Anniversary team.
He will most likely still be onthe hundredth anniversary team if and when
(03:07):
that comes about, and he guessesyet otherwise, we'll get into career stops
and that sort of thing. Togive you some clues. A man,
I'm don't even think ninety four ninetyfive. Who who's coming into the league
right then? So, uh givegive me the first, give me the
first team. He went to theDallas Mavericks, where he played amongst a
(03:31):
rising trio of youngsters that was atleast the way the NBA wanted to position
it about to take the league bystorm. They were across all the magazine
covers, they were on a lotof the video games, that sort of
thing. It never actually panned outin wins and losses, but all three
went on to have very good careers, just not as good as this guy.
(03:51):
Can you give me one of theyoungsters there that they with the Mavericks
in then out and that'll be thelast clo asso? So one of his
running mates who had a stellar career, Jamal Mashburn, though it was truncated
by injuries, especially at the beginning. Jimal mash Fern. The other guy.
Now, if I do this,you're only have only one to choose
(04:13):
from. So uh no, no, don't don't tell me the name,
just tell me the team. Well, no, the first the other guy,
that's I'm sorry, sorry, theco m v P. I should
say his first team. Oh,the co m VP was it will help
me narrow my years down. TheDetroit Pistons. Okay, uh and wearer
(04:34):
of one of the most iconic jerseysof the era that Curists and Detroit hate.
But oh, the Flaming Stallion,like, yeah, the flaming piece
stallion, hot Ron Stallion, whichI do have hanging down. I get
to see it. I get tosee it almost every week. It's not
(04:55):
up there behind you right now.It's not up there. No, it's
actually in a case to rearrange thingshere during the off season. So yeah,
the cases are in a different spotnow, Okay. So that's prop
that ninety four in This is goodcontent. By the way. People just
love to sit and wait to seewhat are you they's they or may not
(05:19):
know it now Okay, I'm tryingto figure it out. Okay, this
is our show. Okay, yeah, it is all right. Five.
So we're probably that those Pistons,Okay, Okay, I'm thinking Grant Hill
is the Piston. Yeah, yep, okay, okay, So he's one
of the co MVPs. Dagum whois CO Rookie of the Year, Co
(05:43):
Rookie of the Year you're right,co Rookie of the Year. So who
co rookie? That seems like suchan interesting tidbit of like history that I
should know. The second place thisgentleman played after oddly enough, so he
was that good as team was thatlauded. But he was traded from the
Dallas Mavericks after two and a halfseasons and went on to play in Phoenix
(06:10):
for five years, went to NewJersey. Okay, I thought he was
younger than this. Okay, sothat's Jason Kidd, right, it's Jason
Kidd. Yes, went back toDallas, won the title seven kind of
guy. That's that's that got thatwrung, finished out with your New York
Knicks, and he is the ownerof one of my favorite insulting nicknames of
(06:35):
all times. Early on in hiscareer, he was referred to as Ason
Kid by fellow NBA players. Whybecause he's got no j That's pretty solid,
all right. So this is theHall of Fame soon to be Hall
of Fame head coach Jason Kidd,episode who also happened to play a couple
(06:56):
of years in the league before becomingone of the best head coaches in the
league ever. Ever, so again, nobody spills a drink better than Jason
Kidd. Nobody. Listen. Youmay not like this worse, but I'm
gonna stay outleutd. I think Jasonkids a prick, so I hope he
hears this episode. I don't likehim. I've never found anything likable about
that guy, and I you're notthe You're not the only person who shared
(07:20):
that sentiment throughout his career, andhe didn't get off to the greatest start
head coaching wise, when he waslike maschinating, not behind the scenes but
right out front and center for otherpeople's jobs. And how do think he
was? He was a prick tothe media with like when when he when
he started becoming I don't know ifhe just had a chip on his shoulder
or whatever it was. But Ijust don't like that guy. So that's
(07:43):
all right. He's not Kyrie levels. Although I will say this about about
Jason Kidd, you know you gotyour money's worth watching the guy on the
court as an assist man. Thoughhis teams didn't always win until late in
his career, he was probably miscastas like a first or second option when
really he should have been a deliverysystem. But if you're going to be
taking that eye in your Rookie ofthe Year, that's the way it goes.
(08:07):
And this I will say about JasonKidd as a coach, he has
not been afraid to experiment with completelyagainst the grain ideas. Sometimes they're so
out there and they don't work,and other times he's been onto something,
whether it's been inverting the offense.When he was in Brooklyn and he played
with his guards inside and his bigsoutside. In Milwaukee, they tried to
(08:30):
build that massive frontline in the earlydays of you know, Yannis joining and
they had three seven footers up frontand the guards were all along. It
was insane. But he's he's donesome really interesting things that he's thrown at
the wall in addition to his drinks. All right, so Jakeson Kidd,
I hope you do you proud ofthis episode or not, I don't care,
(08:50):
screw you. Here's here's the episode. Anyway, Jill, I'm gonna
have been outside of the box forsome news that was reported this morning by
christ Haines of Yahood. And Idon't know if you've seen this, uh,
maybe not, maybe not. Thiswas probably reported before we started recording
about two hours before we started recording, he's reporting that Russell Westbrook have you
(09:11):
heard of that guy? Oh?I did, I did see this report.
Yeah, Russell Westbrook has requested thatthe Clippers let him come off the
bench and start with the starting fiveto try to build some continuity. Uh.
That's a very sweet request of him. I don't know if you've noticed.
It's about the Clippers. They arewindless since they got the big man
(09:33):
that that Steve Palmer wanted to beable to get over here. Objectively terrible
is the word you're searching for you? Yeah, I think that is a
fair thing. They've will six ina row. They're three and seven,
and Russell Westbrook is like, canI help? Can I get in the
lineup to help you out a littlebit? So they were three and one
before they traded Forrarden. So,Joe, I just want to get your
(09:54):
thoughts on that before because that's someof the more pressing and breaking maybe not
pressing but breaking as we start thispodcast. I do you think it's interesting
that, you know, Big Russis like, hey, you know,
I can I help you a littlebit? So good on you, Russell
Westbrook. And it does exhibit achange in Russ that has been at work
(10:15):
for a couple of years now.It was evident last year, it was
evident the year before, even whenhe was in Washington, And this is
I think him coming to grips withwhere he is in his career and probably
having seen some writing on the wall, you know, as things were deteriorating,
things didn't go the way they weresupposed to in La with the Lakers,
(10:39):
just I think understanding that he can'tdo it all. He needs to
fit in that. Russell Westbrook isno longer a system, but he needs
to fit into a system. Areyou listening, James Harden? So,
Russ, by all accounts, hasbeen a great teammate over the last couple
of stops, even with the Lakerswhere things weren't always going the way that
he had hoped. But he's genuinelybeen supportive of other players, instructive of
(11:03):
younger players. The chippiness that RussellWestbrook had against seemingly everyone has started to
diminish a little bit. He's notplaying, you know, less hard or
anything like that. It's just he'sbeing less of a prick. To take
away the quote you had with JasonKidd, and Russ absolutely was one through
much of his career, especially asthings were winding down with Okac as he
(11:26):
got to Houston, as he startedto turn through some of these teams.
So I appreciate the gesture. Idon't know if it solves anything, but
I like where Russ is, wherehis head is at. They've got a
lot of mouths to feed in thatstarting unit, especially with James Harden now
arriving a guy who is not asystem and will not fit into your system
(11:46):
because he is a system. Well, guess what, James Harden, The
system's broken. You are a playerin decline. Teams cannot build around you
anymore or cater to you. Buthere's Russ catering to you. But to
put Terrence Man, a guy whowill not a shot here or there,
but really is more of like afive tool role player into that starting lineup,
allows James Harden a few more shots, Paul George a few more shots,
(12:09):
Kawhi Leonard a few more. Doesit also take some of the onus
off of Russ to go, Hey, whatever problems we're having, this is
not my fault. I'm not inthe starting lineup anymore. Maybe maybe,
but I like the gesture. Ilike the effort, and it shows something
where the coach didn't have to cometo him and sell him on it.
(12:30):
He didn't have to sit in amedia session and do the old passive aggressive
Well, he's the coach and I'mnot so if that's what the coach wants,
I guess that's what I'll do.He didn't have to do that,
so I appreciate that. We'll seehow much it fixes, because I don't
think Russ is the problem. It'sJames Harden. But he did just get
there, and there is a lotof stuff to work out, and they
(12:52):
did get him for basically next tonothing, a bunch of role players who
they really were no longer using atthis point. The only thing I'm a
little worried about. Russell Westbrook goesto the bench. He's gonna play point
guard. Terrence Man goes into thestarting lineup, and now Bones Highland does
what slots back to the third stringpoint guard. He's too talented for that.
(13:13):
He's good, he's a gunner,he's undisciplined at times. You probably
can play Bones and Rust together,but both of those players are better with
the ball in their hands. Butagain, so is James Harden, and
here you go, you've added onetoo many of the same type of players
to the Clippers and it's costing them. Yeah, it's I thought, listen,
(13:35):
I was the one that was sortof advocating to get him out of
Philly to Los Angeles because I thoughtthat's where he wanted the most to be
able to go, so it's theonly place that would take him. Right.
Well, it did turn out tothat be that at that point,
but also thought that Philly, like, if there was any chance to get
out from under him, it wasgoing to have to go put it to
(13:56):
to to the Clippers, and it'sjust not working. And again we're,
what nineteen games into the season,far from technically over. But there are
a lot of big holes there.You see when there are all on the
court at the same time, andlisten with Russ together, like with Russ
(14:18):
as well as James Harden, aswell as Kawhi Lennard and Paul George.
I don't know the numbers, butthe handful of times I've definitely paid attention
to it. Uh, it seemslike it's more efficient, it seems like
it's the best option as far aswhat they have to be able to be
(14:39):
more competitive and to be able topull out close games like against Denver.
But I don't know it was skepticalbeyond. I think James Harden just makes
me skeptical in general anymore, justbecause of all the focus that he takes
away from sort of a team.And it's weird, like we defeated him
for so long and he still getsthose like nice assists numbers and I don't,
(15:03):
I don't. I can't square itin my brain. It's just one
of those weird like you know whenyou have a puzzle piece that's supposed to
fit in the spot, but maybethe manufacturer cut it a little too big,
or or the dog chewed off oneof the little numbers at the edge.
Yeah yeah, and you're like,it's just supposed to fit right,
Like, I don't, I don'tquite. It doesn't quite work in my
brain. Puzzle, And then thatpuzzle piece has the gall to tell you
(15:28):
I don't fit into this puzzle.The puzzle fits around me. That's right,
that's right. Hey, let's talkabout a very cold team right now,
and that's your Minnesota Timberwolves. Theyare losers of one in a row
right now. Uh, and uh, Joel, I got it. Because
it's your team. We have toask you first, how good is this
(15:48):
team? Man better than expected?That's that's the mint that I could take.
That's the bare minimum. But dude, this is a formidable tam.
I saw a report that, sothere's a you have all these everybody has
like a computer that can project things, right, but when something stands out
it catches my eye. And acouple of weeks ago I remember seeing that.
(16:11):
I think it was NBC Boston,right, had the Celtics playing in
the finals. That's not shocker,but their opponent was your Timberwolves. Yeah,
I get out with that. Asmuch as I love Minnesota. That's
the computer and stuff. But sofar, through the first ten games of
the season, it's shown that they'vebeen a pretty good team, and maybe
(16:32):
the computer believed in the more thanmost people in their eye test did.
So to understand this year's Timberwolves,we have to go back two years and
I love this setup. Yeah,yeah, this is the classic Joel Cordis.
I'm gonna, you know, goway too far down the rabbit hole.
But two years ago, that teamhad Jared Vanderbilt, Patrick Beverley,
(16:53):
Tory and Prince had just arrived,Kyle Anderson had just arrived, and you
had a rookie and Anthony Edwards,and the goal was to surround him with
veterans, to have guys with highmotors who could compensate for the fact that
Karl Anthony Towns, his motor andhis focus will weane at times. And
(17:14):
that team played with an edge.They had that classic first round series against
the Grizzlies. The Wolves kind oftook almost almost like a Grizzlies junior approach,
where they were happy to play theheel. They were happy to be
loud, obnoxious, cocky and goafter and they were a fun team.
Last year they traded for Rudy Gobert. They lose a lot of the motor
guys. They bring in Mike Conleyas well, and they just didn't have
(17:38):
a motor last year. They hadno real identity. They were trying to
make it all work with the bigs. Gobert looked unsure. Anthony Edwards was
extremely unsure through the first twenty fivegames about where he would fit in what
he could do. He was floatingaround on offense. This is crazy,
but Edwards went what like the firstdozen games last year without a dunk.
(17:59):
Anthony Edwards went like a dozen gameswithout a single dunk. It wasn't working,
Yeah, and then then Karl AnthonyTowns comes back for a little while
they try to make it work.They just never clicked this year. With
a fall off season and a chancefor everybody to kind of look in the
mirror and some of the trades thatwere made, Edwards has stepped up as
the unequivocal leader of this team.Karl Anthony Towns has been very fine in
(18:26):
letting that happen, but Edwards isnot leading on offense. Edwards is leading
with defensive intensity and hustle and justan absolute dog mentality. I think something
that he saw in Patrick Beverley acouple of years ago and wasn't really sure
how to deploy yet, and allof a sudden it's there. And this
is going to be hyperbolic, butthe broadcasters are starting to point this out
(18:48):
too. And it's not just onthe Timberwolf side. It's not just the
Homer thing. Anthony Edwards on bothends is playing with an aggression that is
reminiscent of a Kobe Bryant or aMichael Jordan about just trying to embarrass everyone.
If you go back to that Celticsgame where he takes over and overtime,
you see him locking up Jason Tatum, putting Jason Tatum on the ground,
(19:15):
stealing the ball, tying it upand standing over him like who are
you MVP? And this is multipletimes of this now where he is going
head to head and it's not justhey, Jaden McDaniels, you're O a
league defender and he is good,he's rangy, he's getting better. They
extended him. He's part of thereason the Wolves are better. But Edwards
is stepping up to take the bestopponent at a lot of junctures in the
(19:40):
game and saying I want to guardthat guy, and instead of just holding
his own, he is being incrediblydisruptive. And now on the other end,
you take that with a guy whoclearly can get to the cup,
who is an above average three pointshooter, the light bulb is starting to
go on about where to get pointsand watch Anthony Edwards in the paint because
he's got the Kobe MJ fadeaway jumperfrom the baseline now and he's been deploying
(20:03):
that with some regularity. It's coming. You add in the fact that Gobert
is very comfortable with what's happening,and the defense now is funneling towards him.
Towns understands better how to fit nextto Gobert. I still think Towns
is the weak link, but I'veseen a lot of progress from Towns on
the offensive end, and even defensively, he's continuing to compete. Then you've
(20:26):
got other guys in Nikhil, AlexanderWalker's a plus defender, Mike Connley still
is. Jaden McDaniels needs to makean all defensive team. Obviously, he
can't get thrown out of games likehe did the other night with the Warriors,
but he should be on an alldefensive team. Kyle Anderson above average
defender. They've got him, andthose guys are following Edwards lead. They're
swarming around the ball, they're flying, they're getting out in transition. They
(20:48):
are fun, but they're fun onthe defensive end first, and that I
think is what the national media hasn'treally picked up on yet. They're saying,
Oh, look, they're the numberone team defensively. Yeah, all
right, we'll see if that's sustainable. Oh, but they're so fun because
they have Anthony Edwards and Cat andGobert. No, no, no,
no, they're fun because of theway they're locking people down and that hustle
(21:10):
is then turning into points. Socan they be a championship team? No?
Is this sustainable? I think so? And what it also signifies as
Anthony Edwards going from star of ateam or rising star of a team to
now unequivocal alpha, a one theguy on a team, but also one
(21:33):
of those players that the league wantsto celebrate and showcase nationally. That has
not happened to the Timberwolves since KevinGarnett. I think that last point is
a great one. But I dothink also talking about this next step,
if you had a player that wasgoing to be you know, some guys
(21:55):
even unless sure, unless you Lebronright or or Kobe, you know,
your first couple of years you're figuringout the league. Kobe, I mean
remember Kobe fit had a couple ofrough years too. No, no,
it's it's fair, it's fair.But I mean as far as here's the
expectation for you, like, it'scompletely different level for Kobe and for for
(22:18):
Lebron coming in, you get it. Maybe a couple of years to sort
of you just can't still put upnumbers and sort of figure out where you
land, and then you start toget your feet under you and then you
find out can you make that nextstep? And it feels like Anthony Edwards
has taken a massive step early onthis season. He is a force,
(22:40):
and we've talked about him for acouple of years on his podcast about how
funny he is to watch and howenergetic he is, and how he is
the guy that the league's gonna needto get behind and pushed soon because he
is the type of guy every bitathletically on the on the court, like
what a John Moran was, whatNBA was, want to be able to
push with him. He's got everybit of that in tangible, that it
factor, as well as being ableto play on the court and be super
(23:03):
good. I'm so impressed with howmuch it's flashed bright early on this season
because I want to talk about anotherteam in just a second that has the
opposite going for them. But duringtheir winning going on early in the season,
they've been a couple of pretty darkgood teams. I mean, they've
been able to put down Denver andpretty impressively. They've been able to put
(23:25):
down Boston and fairly and fairly impressively, like this is this is a team
that isn't just kicking up, kickingdown the potato tomato cans. They have
the hardest schedule in the NBA.To start in those first ten games,
they are really impressive coming out thegate. And I don't yeah, you're
you're right. The sustainability, Idon't know, maybe it looks like it
(23:45):
can be. The pieces feel likethat they're kind of melting together at the
right time or not, I shouldsay right time. But to begin this
season, after they had that transitionalphase, it seemed like figuring out who
worked well with what and why.But yeah, there are really you know,
we were going to talk about someof the teams that are fun to
watch. That's a fun team towatch, man, I'm with you.
(24:07):
That is a very enjoyable team.I've got two of their games so far.
I got the one against Boston mostmost recently, and I was really
impressed that honestly was one of theand to do it at home, and
yes, the Celtics were missing DerekWhite. But I just want to throw
this in there because we don't havea lot of these in our franchise history.
That was one of these signature gamesin Minnesota franchise history as far as
(24:29):
a regular season game. That's reallyfun that people will talk about because that
was one of those moments where yougo, Yep, this Anthony Edwards kid,
Yep, everybody on board, let'sgo, let's go. That's right.
I didn't shrink in a big timemoment against the big time team,
against the team that wasn't going throughtheir huge losing streak. They're the one
(24:49):
that caused a huge two game losingstreak. They started it. Yeah,
that's right. You had so littlefaith the last time we spoke that Boston
would lose and one of those teamswould be to your minister, Timberwolves,
I think of you. I justwant to say one more thing on On
Edwards real quick. The difference tome is that the light bulb has gone
(25:11):
on. And this speaks to yourpoint about it takes a couple of years
for most players, and it didfor Lebron, and it did for Kobe
even too. It did for MJas well. Take all that, Yeah,
but to take all that talent andthe the opportunity and the expectations and
for the game to slow down andfor them to go. I know who
I am, what I can do, and I know how best to deploy
(25:33):
this within my team while letting otherguys eat get them going. I'm gonna
need their help, but it stillhas to come back to me and I
have to take over. I stillhave to be the leader that guys will
rally around. When Edwards first cameinto the league, he would throw himself
into the lane with wild abandon,similar to John Morant, you know,
Derrick Rose whatever. That would worksometimes and it wouldn't, And there'd be
(25:57):
the times you're like, dude,just take the pull up, just take
the floater. You don't need todo that. Then last year there was
the uncertainty of where do I fit? Like I spoke, he would just
float around the perimeter, not knowinghow he was supposed to be moving.
With Gobert and Karl Anthony Towns.That was as much a coaching thing as
it was an Anthony Edwards thing,where it's like, hey, if you
(26:18):
don't know that, then be thatmuch better on the defensive end, get
rebounds, do the little things.He didn't have that yet, and this
year what you see as a differentguy who's figured it out, and he's
rocking the original Timberwolves uniforms, thewhite ones that have come back. It's
reminiscent on some of these dunks ofhow JR. Ryder was like the first
(26:38):
Timberwolves player that many people nationally evenknew about because Jaya Ryder won the dunk
contest in those unis, and allof a sudden, the Wolves are relevant
again, and you've got a guardAnthony Edwards is already the best guard in
Timberwolve's history, like he already isthree years in the best guard the Wolves
have ever had in those uniforms,and is a huge movement from the Minnesota
(27:00):
broadcasters and a lot of people inMinnesota go, you know what, let's
turn the clock back and make thoseuniforms the full time ones going forward.
They're clean, they're fresh, they'reunbusy like the rest of these Let's just
do it. Yeah, some ofmost of these older uniforms are just way
too much from Minnesota. Not thatway, I agree. I'm not against
(27:21):
that other team I wanted to bringup that's just barely ahead of the standing
is the Dallas Mavericks and They've beenreally good as far as winning so far
the season. In fact, they'reone of those teams that when we talk
about fun teams to watch, they'repretty fun. They put up a whole
bunch of points. They're second inthe league in scoring. Luke is playing
out of his mind to be ableto start off this season. But my
question to you is that is thisthe Dallas Mavericks team I can expect or
(27:48):
is this the Dallas Mavericks team that'sbeing a little bit of a supernova right
now? Because if you up anddown their schedule, they've been great teams.
They're being a whole bunch of awhole bunch of cellar and teams are
trying to figure out their identity rightnow. So yeah, capitalize on what
you can if you're that much betterthan him. But is that because they
are that much better than him?Where? Where? Where do you feel
(28:11):
in this Dallas team? Yeah?I mean I had picked Dallas to potentially
be the worst team in the West, and you had him awfully far down
there as well too. There's afew things at play. It's the week
schedule. But Derek Lively the secondwho were like, oh, they're starting
a rookie at center. How's thatgonna go? Is that a sign of
(28:33):
desperation? Is that a sign oflike how shallow this team is? He's
raw, He's got a lot tolearn yet, but man, is he
a nice lob partner for Luka Doncic. He's already doing some of the little
things. The kid hits the glass. He's not raw mentally, like he
understands the game. But I thinkputting it all together will take a couple
of years. Any team that's stillstarting Derek Jones Junior. I know he
(28:57):
had a nice game the other night. That to me, she comes off
as a sign of desperation because howmany starting jobs has that guy lost?
The bench doesn't look like it wasvery deep. But Tim Hardaway Junior is
flame throwing off the bench right nowlike six man of the Year, locked
down if he continues this pace.Luca is outleting at all times and looking
(29:22):
down court. Not just getting intothe offense and making something flashy happen,
but he is outletting. They aremoving, They're getting down. They went
from one of the slowest paced teamslast year. In fact, they might
have been the slowest. They weredown in the bottom three. I know
Miami was down there and so forth, but they're outletting the Kyrie has figured
out how to fit in and hereagain is another sign of you know,
(29:45):
like Russell Westbrook, Kyrie's got alot of knocks against him, but so
far this year he and Luca figureseem like they figured it out. Kyrie
is a shot maker, He isthe secondary ball handler. He is not
the offense initiator. But Kyrie Irvingis running the floor on fast breaks,
Luca is finding him on outlet passes. They've got Grant Williams, who we
(30:08):
liked a lot in Boston in asupporting role and it was like, how's
he gonna fit as a starter.He's been phenomenal, except in a shooting
slump over the last couple of games, but really helpful for them. So
this is not a team, Archiethat's gonna win three times for every one
loss, which is the ratio they'reat right now. I think this is
a slightly above five hundred team oncethey get up against those more talented,
(30:30):
deeper teams. Any type of injuryto this Mavericks roster is big time damaging
because the depth just isn't there.But I like the way they're playing,
and they've had a cohesiveness that Ireally doubted was going to be there based
on what we saw last year.And this is kudos to Jason Kidd,
(30:52):
to Luca, to Kyrie for makingthose adjustments at the top, and I
like what I see out of thatgroup where you go, oh, okay,
Luke and Kyrie might actually be ableto play together long term if Kyrie's
head is on straight and he's coolwith this type of role because Lucas gonna
make him look good. And Kyriestill is a phenomenal shot maker, right,
(31:14):
you know, and a phenomenal secondaryball handler that hasn't gone away.
Yeah, he is putting up essentiallythe same numbers he's put up every year
that he's been with but he's doingit in like five or six fewer minutes
than he's sort of ever played,which is kind of interesting to sort of
pay attention to. In the firstnine to ten games of the season.
Is what sort of you know thisturns into? Right, because I'm not
(31:40):
one hundred percent sure where I feelon Dallas. Yet. You hadn't finished
in thirteenth in the West, Ihadn't finished tenth in the West, so
right now, seconds better than allof those. They won't be there when
it's all said and done, butthey probably aren't going to be thirteenth or
tenth. You know, I justdon't know how good this team is.
And I'm not eighth or ninth fieldsrealistic, doesn't it? Let me let
(32:05):
me look at their schedule real quicknessto sort of tell you the types of
teams that they're they're beating up on, So Orlando, Charlotte, they're losing
the teams like Denver, Chicago,Memphis, the Clippers, the Pelicans who
were five hundred dish, they splitwith them. The Wizard. Orlando does
have a winning record, but that'sreally the only other one you've named so
(32:25):
far. Yes, So, likewe're I'm trying to figure out if they're
beating the teams there that they wereworse than them because those teams are just
worse than them, or if they'rebeating them because they're so much better than
those other teams, And I can't. I don't know if nine or ten
(32:45):
games gives me enough of a fieldto sort of have a great grasp on
that, Because you're right, theydo look a little more cohesive, you
know, I'll be straight with you, haven't watched a full Dallas game yet,
but every time I sort of seetheir scores come up and so watch
some of their highlights and look theywent again. They're like they did,
just keep winning. This is theteam last year that's losing all those games
down the stretch, losing against thefive hundred or just right at five hundred
(33:08):
teams. So to be winning themis definitely a step up. I just
don't know how much better they arethan everyone else. And maybe they're a
lot better. Maybe they're a topfour seed. You know, we thought
they should have been a playoff teamlast year. Yeah, and then I
don't know how the Kyrie trade submarinedthem, But that last stretch of the
season, You're like, man,this is terrible. I don't know why
(33:28):
it's not working. Maybe it's justhaving more time together. I don't know.
I'm a big believer in the Eyeballtest when it comes to chemistry four
teams. Are they excited for eachother? Do they celebrate each other's victories?
Do they high five? Are theveterans talking to guys or they're receptive
(33:50):
to that? And that is somethingthat I haven't seen from Kyrie Irving in
a long time. He's been aloofright ever since he went to Boston,
very aloof from what was going on. Yeah, he'd get his numbers,
but just didn't look like he wasreally a part of those teams. And
in Cleveland, it's hard to saythey were bad until Lebron got there,
and then it was Lebron's team andhe never really paid attention to Kyrie and
(34:12):
the and Kyrie became more aloof amaybe for maybe the beginning of Lebron that
wasn't too bad, but ye atthe end it was definitely. You know,
Kyrior felt like this is in myteam. And I will say it's
been three games since I've seen Dallas, so if this has changed, and
you're a Mavericks fan, forgive meif I'm being an accurate, But in
the games that I've watched so farwith Dallas, Kyrie's body language is completely
(34:34):
different. And this is where againI speak about maturity. He is in
everybody's ear. He's part of thepregame huddle, he's leading pregame huddles.
He is talking to guys, he'spicking guys up off the floor, he's
high fiving, he's engaged, andit looks like he's having fun and he's
part of the game. He's partof the team, and that's great to
(34:58):
see for a guy who needed thatso badly in order to save his career.
And again, is this just himputting lipstick on a pig and the
same old Kyrie is going to comeback out. You could have said that
if he was still fighting for hiscontract. But he got his contract,
right, he got his contract,so I did not think he would get
(35:20):
it no Dallas that he did sono, And I would have doubted it
the same way if it was acontract year. But it's not. And
so I'm a little bit more ofa believer in what I'm seeing. And
you know, Kyrie, as muchas we bashed you, good on you.
And if you can be a bighelp to this Dallas team that needs
as much help as it can getin order to keep Luca long term and
(35:42):
to play to their potential, thatwould be phenomenal if it happens. I
will tell you this, I donot believe in Kyrie completely. I still
have ill feelings, but I willallow for you know, I will allow
(36:02):
for the fact of this. Let'slet's give more of a sample size in
between sort of you know, gettinghis way out of one place into another,
into another the way last year.Submarines still don't quite know why that
was. In the beginning of thisseason, I need more from them to
think that he's gonna be that greatteammate. But I do think it's fair
(36:22):
that you pointed out so far he'sbeen that guy's been very into the team
day to day, in every singlegame and in those good moments, which
which is definitely a difference from whatwe were seeing when he was having his
aloofness, Like maybe maybe he hadan EMO phase, right, maybe he
just wanted to the haircut to letus know it's not It's not really the
(36:44):
you know, burning sage into thelocker room emo I was thinking of.
But maybe he just had to figuresome stuff out to be more cohesive with
people as opposed to just sort ofbe this philosophizer, you know, they
had to be able to speak onthese greater issues that he probably had very
little knowledge about. To your pointabout why the submarine last year, I
think it was lack of cohesion,both by the arrival of such a new
(37:06):
piece and a type of piece thatisn't a perfect fit with Lucas, so
there was a lot to get through. Then you had the injuries. It's
late in the season. That wasa Dallas team that never really had much
of an identity to begin with,and now you're asking them to shape a
different identity on the fly. It'sso similar to Minnesota and trying to fit
Go Bear in towns together and AnthonyEdwards not knowing what to do. NBA
(37:29):
players are just like people. Wewant certainty, we want predictability, We
want to understand how we fit intothings and an off season, especially if
everybody's heads are on straight, andespecially when you can get that hierarchy of
whose role is what, it makesa whale of a difference. And I
do think that's the difference for Dallasnow and Minnesota too. I want to
(37:50):
talk about something really interesting right afterthis, and I know we don't have
a ton of time to be ableto get in all this, but I
do want to just briefly, ifyou'll just tell me why Draymond is choking
players on the court in twenty twentythree. Uh, the same guy that's
very interested into, uh, youknow, kicking people in the ding dongs.
Uh? Is you know, we'vesaid a thousand times this is Draymond
(38:15):
Green is an enforcer. That's reallywhat it was. And I don't have
a problem with him defending his guy, but I do thought I would think
it was kind of interesting that itwas pretty quick on. By the way,
that was after your Minnesota team wasup beating the snun out of him
for a couple of games. Uhso sweeping that One of those wasn't the
playing tournament right? One of those, Candon's the playing tournament game. The
(38:36):
second one where people got ejected wasthe play in tournament game, right?
So? Or the end season tournamentnot the play in Yeah, we I
think people know what the point Again, if bones Hyland doesn't know, none
of us know. By the way, did you see what Steph Curry said
about the playing tournament? He said, he said, you know, if
(38:58):
people would just read it pretty simpleto understand, and then he went on
for like thirty forty seconds trying toexplain. He's like, you know,
everyone plays in these groups, andthen the groups played into a bracket,
and then a bracket breaks off andgoes into you know, the tournament in
Vegas, and then games that getmade up at the who don't make it
into the bracket get made up,and he's like, it's just very simple.
Like, dude, it's spake youforty five seconds to be like it's
(39:19):
super simple. It's not that simple. But anyway, it really depends on
how familiar with soccer one is.If you're familiar with soccer, it's simple.
If you're not, then it's gonnabe something new to you. But
it was just like, you guysare so dumb. Let me spend forty
five seconds explaining this to you.It's very simple. Uh yeah, So
(39:40):
a punk move by Draymond I thinkthe Five Games is appropriate if you're gonna
restrain Rudy Gobert, who's rushing inthere, not swinging, not pushing,
not shoving. Rudy Gobert was kindof rushing in there to separate people and
go. Bear and Draymond Green inthe game beforehand had been going at each
They're a bunch. They are notfriends. The dates back to the Utah
(40:02):
days for Gobert and and you knowall the time that they would run into
Golden State. They don't like eachother, so there's there's not good blood.
The previous game had been rough.The first two minutes had been rough.
It was physical, but yeah,there's no need for a guy who's
coming to separate to choke him toessentially jump on his back piggyback style and
(40:27):
try to wrestle him to the ground, like if you're trying to restrain him,
grab him by the waist, grabhim by the arm, shove him
out of the way, get athroat. The throat it's basketball. But
again, to do it with hisback turned, it's a cheap shot move.
The guy can't defend himself. It'sit's ridiculous, like that's that's the
(40:50):
worst long time to get it tolet go too. I think it's one
of the worst looks for Draymond thathe's had in a career filled with worst
looks. This is worse than onguys or the nut punches or stuff like
that, because again, this comesafter all those things have already happened,
and you know the league is lookingfor it, and to do it that
much out in the open to aguy who up to that point has not
(41:15):
shown himself to be an aggressor.He's not taking a swing at your guy,
Klay Thompson. If Rudy Gobert isin there throwing punches. Yes,
grab him, you know, chokehim and restrain him. That's different.
That's not what Gobert was doing.It's not no, and he wasn't.
He wasn't showing that that was acase. He's rushing in there. So
(41:36):
again, shove him out of theway, get a one game suspension,
don't get him between them, geta no game suspension, but maybe get
kicked out, like don't take justjump on the guy from the back and
then try to choke him. LikeI was a little surprised it was just
a five game suspension, to behonest with you, Like I thought that
was looking at like you started probablyten and then maybe you negotiate it down
(41:58):
to seven or eight ers something orto start at five. I was especially
with Steve Kerr, was like I'mcool with this, Like like Steve cra
had no problems with it whatsoever.And again no problem with defitting your teammate,
just a little issue starting out goingwith it with the MMA moves.
I think Kerr is okay with itbecause it wasn't ten games. It's like
five we can handle. But Ithink the context plays a big deal there,
(42:22):
Like, yes, Draymond, youshould know better, and because of
the history here, maybe you shouldget more than five. But the heated
nature of the game before, rememberthey had played each other the game before.
This was a back to back,a home a home back to back.
The way the first two minutes startedout showed that it was going to
be a thing. And it wasa bang bang play where go Beart is
(42:45):
rushing into a scrum and Draymond losthis temper, lost his cool. It's
different than you're in the course ofa normal NBA flow of offense and all
of a sudden, Draymond is punchingsomeone in the nuts, or somebody falls
down on the floor in the courseof the game and Draymond steps on him.
Those things completely out of the flow. And while this was not the
(43:06):
appropriate response and is ridiculous, itwas within the flow of what was happening.
So I get five games. Ithink seven or eight might have been
good. But at this point,what message really matters to Draymon. We
don't even know, No, wedon't even messages like you could have been
a thirty game suspension. It's notgonna like change who he is. So
(43:27):
this is just and it's who's alwaysbeen and It's not to say that he's
particularly it's just his style of basketball, his brand, where he went to
college, like all all of thishas made him just this thick, big,
bruising guy who his skill set isessentially a strong, tough enforcer now
at this point, especially since hisskill set is diminished. So yeah,
(43:49):
career like this is kind of whohe is. It's what he does to
sort of earn that paycheck. Andyou know, again, he's defended dudes
that He's defend his dudes, right, like his dudes that he's been going
through with a long long time.It's not like he's defending like, you
know, not that ever be athing like the like like he's not He's
not defending Ruy Hachimura like that orsomething like that or guy Forbid before Jordan
(44:09):
Poole, you know, like youknow, he's defending you know, he's
defending Clays. So all right,last thing I want to get to before
we get out of here. We'vetalked more about the fun teams. I
just want to get your thoughts onthe screenshot of where we are in the
West right now. The top sixteams. If we were going to give
those guaranteed spots going into the playoffsare Denver, Dallas, Minnesota, Okay,
(44:32):
see Houston, Sacramento. So youknow the way the West has always
been speaking of the talking about thesefun teams, like there's like all six
of those teams have been really enjoyableto be able to watch highlights of and
to be able to see some oftheir games. For this is what we
talked about, I think early inthe before the season started, that there's
going to be a lot of interestingmovement at the beginning of the year.
(44:55):
And this West team, the Westof the team that we thought the teams
that we thought we're down and lowlast year and the year before, we're
gonna see some serious contention from them. And so far early on Okay,
se he's giving it to you.Houston's on this well, I think a
five or six game winning streak rightnow. Sacramento they still got the six
(45:15):
spot right now at this point,but they're a team that blew up last
year. Dallas is research coming intothe season. Minnesota popped up a couple
of years ago. Now it seemslike they're back. I mean outside it
didn't really. This has just beena very fun tops each over a little
very unpredictable first ten eleven games ofthe year. Here's what's crazy, though,
(45:37):
as much as things don't feel likewhat we predicted, and they don't,
and it's early and there's a lotof movement, there's really only two
teams in there, Dallas and Houstonthat most people were like, eh,
we'll see about playoffs. You lookat the teams that are not in the
playoff field right now. The Clippers, we went through their problems. The
Grizzlies, they're missing job way morethan we thought, and there were you
(45:57):
know, a lot of us thoughtthey'd still be a playoff team. But
the field really isn't that different fromwhat we predicted. It's just some of
the teams that we thought would bein the play inside of things are sitting
up in the top six right now. And here's where I've just started early.
Those who are playing in are LosAngeles, Phoenix, Golden State,
New Orleans said the Clippers are stilla couple spots below that at this point.
(46:19):
Memphis is the worst team in theWest right now. The Lakers will
figure this out. There was alot to figure out with new phases,
and they've had a ton of injuriesPhoenix has had injuries to their big three.
There's a ton to figure out there. That entire team is almost new,
and you have a new head coach, so they will get that sorted
out. Like you said, Ilike these new teams that are here.
(46:42):
They've all been fun. I thinkthey all have staying power. I think
the field as we're seeing it rightnow is probably what we'll see with the
top ten. But the Clippers shouldget back into it will be a major
disappointment if they don't. But maybewe're about the same, you know,
look at the Eastern Conference in thesame way. And as much as things
(47:02):
are like topsy Turvy's like, ohyeah, Boston affiliate at the top,
Miami's in third. Good for them, but Indy up at four thirty,
one of us predicted that they weregonna be really good. That the most
points in the NBA is easy.They are so than everybody. They are
so fun. And I texted thisto you the other day while watching them,
(47:23):
was like, this may be thefirst time since the ABA days that
the Pacers a team with its namePacer that sounds like it should be a
fast running, kind of fun typeof team. This is the first time
they've been fun since the seventies because, yeah, they've had good teams off
and on throughout their history. Butnone of those good teams, including the
(47:44):
Reggie Miller, Rick Smith's era,you know, uh, Steven Jackson and
Jermaine O'Neill. You get to DannyGranger and Paul George and Lance Stevenson,
David West, those guys, RoyHibbert, none of those were fun teams.
Those were all like gritty, tough, defensive oriented team. This Pacers
team is fun. They're threven andfour and six of their eleven games,
(48:05):
they've scored at least one hundred andthirty points, yeah, fifty plus twice,
and they've given up one hundred andfifty five to Boston they think it
was, and they've given up onehundred and forty three to somebody else along
this. Yeah, so it's justand this is a Rick Carlisle team that's
playing like this. That's what's soamazing about it. But anyway, it's
not just the Pacers. You lookat the top ten, Atlanta, Orlando,
(48:28):
Brooklyn, Cleveland, those were allteams that were like, yeah,
they probably should be in the playoffs. Should Cleveland be that low? No,
will they get it figured out,hopefully, but we all kind of
saw Orlando was ready to maybe bein that fringe group. Toronto is hanging
around there. We don't know ifthey'll be there, but I guess long
story short, as surprising as theWest seems, the East is showing us
(48:52):
too. It's the NBA. Whoyou think is going to be there by
and large usually gets there in thelong run, with one or two aberrations.
Once an any two game season isdone. And as you've pointed out
many times before, in the playoffs, it's even more so it kind of
shakes its way out that who wethought would be there at the end probably
(49:12):
is so super early. But I'menjoying this season so far. It's been
really fun, I have to it. I think as far as shaking it
out, it's just I don't knowif Houston has staying power. But I'm
enjoying what Washington play so far.Okay, See, I think that was
probably of the teams that were thelower end of the play in or not
in the play in last year.When you're considering who might be like a
(49:37):
capable of that, that was probablythe team we thought, you know,
getting Chet home back and Stuf wouldbe like sort of a big deal with
him and he's played really good.That that team is I don't know if
a lot of people know the entiretyof their roster or even more than maybe
a player, like maybe I saythe over under a number of players people
know okay See at one and ahalf, and I think most people will
(49:57):
go under that team is dynamic,that's starting five is fire. Yes they
are. I think if people geta chance to more see the more and
more and more because football season andI know it's absorbs a lot of attention
for people, and I get that. So once you get Christmas Day and
start getting into January February, Ithink you're gonna see a lot of people
(50:22):
look at the Okahoma City team belike have they been like this all year?
Like, yeah, they've kind ofbeen like this all year. They're
a really fun, fun team.That front five is extremely competitive and fun
to watch, and that's an oozingtalent that fits together, just oozing talent.
That's fair. That's one of thepredictions that's worked out well for us,
(50:42):
that okay See. Although I stillwanted to have okay See at okay
See at number I have a numbereleven. So I said, just on
the outside looking in, I'm smart. Here's here's a brain teaser for you,
and I don't I don't know theanswer to this. Do you think
if Chet Holmgren doesn't get hurt lastyear and they've got that starting five together
a year early, you know,with Josh Giddy, who really came on
(51:06):
the scene last year, Shai GildersAlexander, you got Jalen Williams it was
his rookie season, Lou dort andyou had Chet Holmgren to that group.
How many spots better do you thinkthey would have been last year with Chet
already? Because it really feels likehaving his dynamic shooting ability, his shot
blocking ability, his finishing ability hasjust unlocked so much more for everyone else
(51:28):
and is allowing them to shine.And Shai Guilders Alexander is a legit,
legit I don't even want to sayfringe MVP candidate, He's a legit MVP
conversation candidate. And he was lastyear already too. That's a really good
question. Like Lou dort Is isan All NBA defender maybe on third team,
(51:52):
you know, if that existed secondteam at least. I can't say
that it wouldn't have been more positiveright now. To be fair, I
wonder if they jumped three spots lastyear in the West. Maybe that's too
much, Maybe it's only two,but we see how much they've jumped.
And again it's early and they're eightand four. It's four games above five
(52:13):
hundred. But from what we're seeing, yes, the bench is a long
way to go. Everybody on thatteam is young, everybody, so last
going to be nights. That doesn'twork. Last year there were forty and
forty two. So if they win, let's see if they jumped so that
that put them with that they endedup being a seventy. Would they d
been like the nine seed right ofthe play? I think so. Could
(52:37):
they have gained four games been ontip four, but say five games would
have safely gotten them in the topgame, top top six. Yeah,
would they have been five games better? I think they probably would have.
I think so too, And Ithink that's reasonable And that's safely in the
top six from last year. Soyeah, I don't think that's outside of
the question. Yeah, I'm gonnago back and look at their schedule be
(52:59):
like that was a four point lotethat could have been a win. That
just go back and be like,there could have been a whole bunch of
different things here. Granted, let'sget that time machine, let's go fixed
it at homeward. Having the abilityto take that red shirt year we've seen
for a lot of different guys.No, you never want it to happen,
but Joelle and b Blake Griffin aresome of the biggest names for it.
(53:21):
It's been helpful, especially for Biggs, to be able to have a
year to put some weight on theirframe, to get NBA strong, to
watch a lot of film, tobe able to get in and yeah,
they can't do a ton of workwhen they're rehabbing, but to be able
to work on skills, and Ithink the understanding of the game improves a
lot and Chet has benefited from that. So he is a better player now,
(53:45):
I think for having sat that year, but still had he gotten all
that NBA experience last year, who'sto say you're right? And maybe you
know, he has to deal withthis fair share of minus twenty sevens,
which, by the way, theKnicks game to Victor wimbingm a couple of
weeks ago. But anyway, y'alldon't want to talk about that. That
the Knicks or the team that gavehim the worst plus minus of his career
(54:07):
at that point. I'm sure he'llhe'll have his revenge at some point.
I see that, like he cancan have a bad player that. I
think Joel and Bead just had likea minus twenty five the other night,
So it's not it probably won't tainthis entire career. They have. They
happen a lot more often than youthink if you play attention to plus minus,
like so much of that is draggeddown by what locke you're in and
(54:28):
all that sort of you know,I'll leave you with this. Joel Embiid
has only had six times in hiscareer that he's been a plus a minus
twenty five or worse. Three ofthem against the Boston Celtics, and that
was his most recent minus. Ithink he was minus twenty seven or minus
twenty five or something in the game. Well, when you see each other
four times a year, you know, same thing with the Knicks and the
Sixers, like you, you dohave an inside edge. I think against
(54:51):
your divisional opponents, those games takeon a different meaning. It's the same
way like when Minnesota beats Denver andpeople like, oh my gosh, they
beat the Nuggets and it was sucha good game. Yeah it was.
But they see each other four timesa year and they've been playing each other
tough for a few seasons now,Like that's okay, that's those are tune
in worthy games, Like don't missthe Nuggets on the trip. They are
they are too. How about thiswe get to the entire podcast. We
(55:13):
weren't talking about the Celtics or theseventy six ers, or how good the
Miami Heat are right now, orthe Lakers or the or the Lakers.
Not really the Nuggets either too.Look at that, are we talking Hoop's
beyond just the top level of thetopics. That's the dream, baby,
that's the dream. That's what JakeKit deserves on this episode. You prick
(55:34):
just got it's just leave us gothere
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