May 31, 2024 • 41 mins
Episode 174: Arky Shea and Joel C. Cordes point out how the future can be bright for the Minnesota Timberwolves and Indiana Pacers, despite such disappointing playoff ousters. They also detail how the Dallas Mavericks can actually have a shot in the 2024 NBA Finals against the juggernaut Boston Celtics.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Basketball Association style. Uhhere with the heartbroken Joelsey Cordez, the
scarred veteran of these playoffs. Myname is Arkie, Say Joel MAVs Celtics.
Exactly the way we prepredicted, thesame way we predicted it too,
it would happen the same. Youtechnically were right as far as your prediction,
(00:23):
but as far as the way everythinghappened, not even close to right,
not for either what is good.This is how I know the NBA
is not rigged, because why wouldthe NBA want both these series to go
like this like they would so quickly? Yeah, they wouldn't, and they
one won't blowout in game decided likethey just wouldn't. So Joel, let's
(00:47):
just go ahead and start with yourimmediate thoughts following the untimely demise of the
Anthony Edwards crew. So one,I hope I don't have to wait twenty
more years to get back to thisposition, because twenty years has been a
long long time. Yeah, twothousand and four in the KUP. But
number two, this was this wasa surprise legitimately for me, and you
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mentioned that part of the predictions wereright. I did put the Dallas Mavericks
in the Western Conference Finals, butI had them against Denver. I did
put the Boston Celtics in the NBAFinals in my predictions. They are there.
So when we were predicting these individualseries, like you picked Dallas still
to win and you picked Boston,no, I had. I had Minnesota
(01:29):
over I had Minnesota over Dallas.I had Denver over Minnesota. In the
second round, I picked Denver inseven games over Minnesota. But once we
got to this and again we didn'ttape last week before some of this was
going on, but yeah, Ididn't pick Dallas to get to the finals.
I picked Minnesota. At that point, I believed that Minnesota would be
able to move through Dallas in sixgames, maybe even five, because the
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Wolves had not really had a problemwith Dallas during the regular season. Minnesota
had shown a lot of things duringthe Denver series, they had shown a
lot of things during the Phoenix seriesand sweeping the Suns team the one that
had given them problems during the regularseason, and it just seemed like they
continued to get better through these biggerchallenges and Dallas, you know, no
disrespect to them, and had areally nice playoffs but it's like, Okay,
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you beat the Clippers, a teamthat didn't have Kawhi Leonard for the
whole time, only for part ofit. They've been really up and down
and inconsistent. You beat the Thunder, the number one team in the West.
That's nice. But the Thunder reallyweren't the number one team in the
West most of the way, andthey were young, and they got exposed.
And I just looked at all thedifferent on paper advantages that Minnesota should
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have and I am surprised because notonly did they get out played, they
got thoroughly outplayed. And it's crazythat in Game five, first quarter,
near the end of the first quarter, Dallas goes up by fourteen. That
was the largest lead of the entireseries up to that point that Dallas had
(02:59):
had. Fine really was in Yeah, they had only been up by fourteen
points, but they controlled a lota lot during the series. And what
the other crazy part When I lookat Game five, it was a blowout,
it was a beatdown, it wasa butt kicking, it was all
those different things. Yes, itwas only twenty one points at the end.
(03:19):
But the crazy thing to me iswhen you look at the box score
and I know, that doesn't alwaystell a full story, but it tells
enough. Minnesota wasn't that far offin rebounds, in turnovers, and assists
in you know, you look atany of these metrics basic as they might
be. Shooting percentage. Sure,the may have shot the lights out at
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fifty five percent and they were fortyfour percent from downtown. It seemed like
in that game archy that they wereninety percent from the field and eighty percent
from downtown, like they couldn't actually, you know, like they couldn't miss.
And then Minnesota, on the otherhand, shot forty three percent from
the field. That's not great,but that's not getting blown out bad.
(04:00):
And thirty percent from downtown also notgreat, but the number of shots is
relatively even. In fact, Minnesotagot more shots than Dallas got free throws
was relatively even. But you cannottell me that the stats tell the story
of what the eyeball test showed inGame five. Oh uh, it was.
(04:25):
It was ugly fun Yeah, yeah, I was trying to think,
like, if they're a way Icould spend that, No, I can't.
I can't spend that year. You'reright, You're right, Like it's
to me, it's like what whenthe Knicks got punked down in game seven,
it's like, Wow, why can'tIndiana miss? Like? Why why
is this this game? The gamethat could eliminate them, the game where
(04:45):
the other t what they cannot miss? And at home anything? Yeah,
and at home right, you're rightnot to mention that you guys were going
after dudes next literally like you guyswere just trying to murder people, which
is fun. Right, Look,I don't know how much you want to
give into that and talk about thatand with It's just especially because the way
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the series ended up going, right, it's not that it's going to impact
anything serious. Why it's going forward. I go ahead, I've got thoughts
on Dallas, but we'll get tothem in a minute. I was just
gonna say, like I am,I'm not surprised that there was a blowout
in this series, and I'm noteven so surprised that it was in a
(05:28):
decisive game as much as that Ithought it was so decisive after this one,
after we had just seen Minnesota sortof get through the wall and sort
of maybe again, three to zerois tough. Three to one, it's
still very tough, but there's alittle hanging on going back home, right,
you know you're going back home.You can feel a little bit,
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you know, good. But home'sbeen a tricky place for Minnesota in the
playoffs. Like it's yeah, SoI'm a little surprised even tho. If
I just paid attention to the trendsfor this playoffs the Minnesota, I maybe
shouldn't be, but I'm I can'thelp but be disappointed because i thought Minnesota
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would win and be the better team. I'm really surprised at how hot Luca
and Kyrie were getting in that gameand how good they have been in this
playoffs for basically the totality of it, Like they essentially did what I think
like the Miami heat of tone,which is they're fine, they're good,
they get to the playoffs and aflipped a switch just got flipped, and
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so they just superseded everything. Ithought Dallas was going to be in this
series. I did think they mighthave a shot at it. I did
not think they'd be doing gentleman's sweepagefor Dallas. That comes down to a
few different things. And this also, I think speaks to how and why
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Minnesota lost the way that they did. Dallas had two stars that were locked
in that yes, at times absolutelycould not miss, but even when they
missed shots, they were locked intothe game plan. They moved the basketball,
they both defended, they were aggressivewhen they needed to be, they
got other guys involved. They thoroughlyoutplayed And I don't care what the box
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score says in any one game,but we all know about Karl Anthony town
struggles. But even with Anthony Edwards, Kyrie and Luca played in command the
entire time and they were in controland they outplayed Towns and Edwards. But
you know what, that's kind ofhow it should be. Towns and Edwards
are on the come up. Edwardsas a young guy, Towns has never
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been on winning teams up to thispoint. Really, I mean, he's
been on a couple over the lastfew years, but not teams in this
position before. Kyrie's a champion.You know, Luca's been to the Western
Conference finals two years ago. He'sbeen in the playoffs multiple multiple times.
And that's just at the NBA level. He is a champion overseas. These
two guys are veterans and they knowwhat they're doing. And then the supporting
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cast for Dallas again executed a gameplan from start to finish. Throughout the
series, you never got the sensethat Dallas didn't know what to do or
what was going on. They werefiery, but they were calm in their
execution, whereas on the other sidewith Minnesota and Anthony Edwards kind of said
this too, like you would constantlylook at the Wolves and they're looking around
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as if they don't know what todo, where there's frustration or there's guys
that are hesitating on shots, orespecially in Game five, they were playing
hard, but it was hard nervous. You could just tell that they were
tight. You know, shots arebeing released at different points than normal,
or rushed or short armed. It'sall these you know, the balls getting
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lost a little bit on freak turnovers, and those are little things that when
you watch body language and if you'vewatched the game long enough, you can
tell when a team is tight ora player is And the Wolves were tight
going back home. But that wasnot the first time it had happened in
this series. I thought Minnieso sothat the the real big sin was losing
your first two games at home.You you came out way too cool,
(09:07):
way too cool. I don't knowyou believe press clippings or what it was
after the Denver series. But that'sa great that's a great descriptor of it.
They were a little too cool forschool. They thought they had got
they slayed the dragon, right,the defending champ dragon. It thought,
all right, well, you gotwhat was the five seed? You got
this five seed coming in here.We run this thing. We got through
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the biggest day obstacle we got toget through. And you got wiley veterans.
You know, Luca's been, youknow, not as deep as Kyrie
in the playoffs, but he's hadgotten themselves a couple of steps through already,
those dudes, and they got veteranson that team. This team was
ready to play in Minnesota, wasn'tearly. I think that's a really great
way to put it. What doyou think of catch three point barrage?
(09:52):
He just wouldn't. So now thenare shoot shoot? But come on,
Kat, the rest of the offseason, the narrative is going to be,
because it's already started. Stephen Ais parroting this now trade Cat you
know, and anybody who's listened tothis show, the dozens of you who
have listened to the show, youknow that It's been well over a year
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that I've been saying Cat needs togo. He is the weak link on
the progression of this team. He'sa talented player, he's a good dude.
I've always said that I respect whathe, you know, brought to
the table over these years, buthe is the weak link. And he
has been in the league long enoughto try to overcome these things and not.
And it's not just yeah, hedidn't shoot well. It was a
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terrible series shooting wise, Oh mygod. But then what else did he
bring to the table? I knowthe box score will say he had twenty
eight and twelve in Game five andGame four he had a nice game too,
but he fouled out a Game fourthe game exactly. The fouls and
the defensive issues continue, the offensivefowl continue. And then on top of
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it, if and when you havegames where you go cold, which is
gonna happen, maybe even entire serieswhere you go cold, what do you
do to get out of it?What else do you contribute? Unfortunately,
Towns, he is a one trickpony. He is a very good offensive
player in the scoring category, andhe's a good passer, but he turns
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it over he gets offensive files whichare turnovers to and then defensively it's there's
just not enough production elsewhere and hedoesn't fit. They tried it with the
Go Beart and Towns pairing. Townshas been the week link. Go Bear,
I know, is not an offensivethreat. His box score sucked in
game five he got outplayed by DanielGafford, but Towns got really outplayed by
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Daniel Gafford, and Gobert just makesmore sense with what they have. You
need to trade Karl Anthony Towns fora three and D wing. You know,
Mikhale Bridges from the Nets would bemy dream pick. Send Towns back
to the New Jersey area where he'sfrom. Jeremy Grant from Portland is just
hanging out there, not doing anythingand would be a nice fit with this
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team too. There are fits likethat, you know, Trade them to
the Lakers, I don't care.Put them with Anthony Davis, put him
with Lebron, give me Austin Reeves, bring back Jared Vanderbilt, Prian princeon
whatever else you can get your handson. Like I think that the Wolves
with Anthony Edwards playing a massive supersizedlineup is nice sometimes, but that's what
you have Nas Reid for. Youdon't need Towns to make them sort of
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look work. Read has been thebetter player, the smarter player, get
a three and D wing and giveyourself the ability to go small sometimes too,
and a player that's not going tobe making so many mistakes. So
it's that's gonna be the narrative.Towns is gonna get blamed for more than
he should because the numbers were damning. I mean they were, they were
bad for the whole series. ButI thought Chris Finch got out coached much
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of this series, or Mike andNorri or both. You know, Finch
was hurt and coaching from the theback of the sidelines. Dallas had a
better game play and their guys wereready to play. Stan Van Gundy called
this out throughout the series. Whyis Minnesota not putting Luka Doncic into rotation
defensively? Why are you not runningscreens that involved Luca coming up and then
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getting him to be the primary defender. Luca got to camp out defensively on
Jade McDaniels or Kyle Anderson or whoever, and just rest possession after possession after
possession, rest on the defensive endand then come back and be able to
dominate offensively. That's not how youtry to go after him. Kyrie again
a game defender at this point,but a guy that you should be pushing
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mismatches and Dallas never allowed that reallyto happen, and Minnesota for whatever reason,
did not try to exploit that.But body language wise, they this
falls on the coaching staff too,And for the young guys, I do
have silver linings, but we'll talkabout that in a minute. Well,
I don't really have much else fornas Reed is a legend killer or so
our Lively killer. My man,Uh, let's I'll say this, and
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I's had a bad game five too, by the way, he was only
five points to ten, four,like he's there's a lot of in that
game. That's a lot of frustrationin that game. I think that's the
second time that Lively took that hiton the back of the neck blowout.
It's just it's tough, like whenwhen Anthony Edwards is hitting like a New
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Logo three cutting it to thirty andeveryone's cheering like it's it's a tough game.
It's a tough scene for everybody.Uh. There, if you wanted
silver linings. We can go tothe Boston moving forward. Minnesota got real
tongue in cheek after the Denver win, you know, and they were told
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about going through steps and how theyhad kind of advanced a step. And
I think it was you who sentme that clip of you know Edwards and
Town's laughing, going, how muchmore do we have to lose? Like
we've been losing. We've done allthese steps, And that's true. They
had lost plenty, they had beenpushing, they had been a playoff contender
over the last three seasons. However, if there's a silver lining in this,
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it's that Minnesota, when they've gottenthemselves in trouble this year, has
been too cool for school sometimes.That was a major problem last year,
and this is another example that youcan't do that. Anthony Edwards still continues
to he needs to continue diversifying hisoffensive game. As electric and explosive as
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it is. You saw that whenbottled up by a wall of defenders,
and Denver did this to him.Also, he gets a little bit limited
and still falls back into some ofthose rookie and sophomore year mistakes where he
just launches himself into the defense tryingto get a call. He will get
better, he will continue to improve. But also for Edwards, I think
it was exposed and maybe he wastalking too much trash, Like you want
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to go after Kyrie, Irving andLuca and talking trash before the season the
series has even started. Might notbe a great idea. I don't want
to take away that killer edge fromEdwards, but when he signed up to
be the primary defender on Kyrie,that did not last the whole series because
it kind of showed that as goodof a defender as Edwards is, asking
him to be the lead defender everypossession and then your lead offensive player,
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especially if the supporting cast is notdoing their part. In Townsens is playing
like garbage. Edwards got tired.He had dead legs by the end of
nearly every game in this series.And maybe it's the length of the season.
He's never played this far in whateverit was. You're coming off the
seven game series in Denver, sothere's that conditioning that will continue to happen.
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There's understanding the pace, there's maybeunderstanding like, oh, as superhuman
as Aunt is, he's still ishuman, and the limit might be we're
going to deploy him as our leaddefender situationally, not just because he stepped
up and admirably so to say no, I got Kyrie. That may not
be realistic on this team, withthis offense and the way it sputters at
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times. So you've learned some things. Jaden McDaniels will be a year older
next year, So will Nas Reid, so will Nikail, Alexander Walker,
Soul, Anthony Edwards. That's youryoung court. Rudy Gobert is still gonna
have stuff left in the tank nextyear. We wonder about Mike Conley.
He's gonna have to go, youknow, probably fewer minutes again next season.
Towns is the X factor. Thereare some young guys on the bench
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who maybe could deserve some more minutes, but I don't know that they're gonna
step into a situation. If you'rejust trading Towns just to get rid of
them, you're gonna need something back. But I also am very wary of
this team, and I don't knowthat Tim Connolly the GM, will do
it because he doesn't seem to besuper conservative. But there could be that
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temptation to go, hey, wemade it to the Western Conference finals,
let's just run it back. Thatwould be a mistake. The silver lining
here is you had an entire seasonwhere Towns and go Bear were relatively healthy.
I know Towns missed some time atthe end, but you had a
large body of work to look atthe experiment, see all of the ways
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that it did work and proved alot of us wrong. But also I
think to see where the ceiling andthe limitation is with this idea, and
more specifically where the limitation is withKarl Anthony Towns under a very bright spotlight.
You've learned these lessons. The silverlining has to be that you learn
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and move on. Now. Youfeel pretty strong about that, and you've
talked about that throughout the season.Preseason, I think I'm gonna defer to
you You've seen a lot more ofCarothity Towns with this program than I have,
so I'm not always right. Ididn't think Dallas would win. You
know, I could be wrong onthis one too, but there is a
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large body of work that and alot of other people saying the same thing
at this point too. I feelpretty confident on this one. It's a
good thing. It's good that you'renot listening to your top player when Anthony
Edwards just was telling a tongue incheek not so now to Anthony Edwards,
Hey, maybe stop bouting everybody.You know, we'll be all right,
And then he fouls out of It'sjust just it's clear that Anthony Edwards knows
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who his guy is, Like heknows who Carl that he towns is,
and he's just like, just chillout on that. We'll probably be okay
for the most part. Yeah,and he got hit some shots, My
friend, what do you have gotto hit over? Like? What was
it like? At one point itwas like what did I see one point
of like twelve or forty eight orsomething like that. Or I think he
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was thirty one percent from the floorin the series And I may be wrong
here, but I'm close thirty onepercent from the floor twenty three percent from
downtown for the series from three,So I was thinking that he just kept
that. And then Minnesota won threehome games all playoffs. They got to
the Western Conference Finals and only wonthree times at home. Twice was against
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Phoenix in the sweep, and thatbeat Denver one at home once at home
during that seven game series. Sokudos to them for winning some road games.
They were a good home team thisyear. They were a good road
team this year, and it wasone of the signs of maturation that they
were finally protecting a home court.But that's another that's another pretty damning statistic
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when you cannot win at home.And maybe again it's something to learn from,
it's something you'll get better at,but it is a major thing that
needs to change. You're not goingto make it very far if you've got
no home court advantage. And Idon't necessarily think that's a fan thing,
you know, like that's the teamlearning how to get the fans involved in
the game and give them something toactually cheer about. Boston will be the
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Dallas Mavericks opponent, and frankly,another series that went much differently than I
was expecting, not in the finalresult, but the fact that this series
shifts to probably be playing right now, like Indiana gave up games plural in
this series, including one you cannotgive up, including Game one in Boston.
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Joe, I'll obviously get your thoughtson it, but I'd said before
the series, I thought between thetwo the Knicks and the Pacers, I
thought the Knicks were the better team. With healthy to be able to play
Boston. They clearly were far fromhealthy by the time that series was over.
So then to play Boston, Ithought Indiana had the chance. And
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in my defense, Joelsey Cordis,they played him really well for a while,
like multiple games in this series,and to just drop one in the
punch bowl, like it's look,I hate Boston, it's disheartening to sort
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of watch, but I hate Indianatoy. To be honest, it's a
little disheartening to watch a team likeIndiana to go through something like that.
When you to me, it feltlike you could have lost all the energy
off that team after Game one,all of the comdit just sucked out and
he kind of showed a little gametoo. But they still played really well,
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and they still had multiple chances towin multiple games in this series.
Joe, why didn't they? SoI know, you're pointing the finger a
lot at Indiana, and there weredumb turnovers, there were misshots, there
were times that they got tight.But you look at that roster and outside
of Pascal Siakam, who is achampion and you know, made some runs
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with the Raptors, but really it'sone year the only other guy on the
roster playing major minutes who's had someplayoff experience is Miles Turner, but those
were mostly sweeps during the Nate McMillanera, and Turner never got far into
the playoffs during his time there.So this is new territory for them,
just like it was for the Timberwolves. When I looked at Boston, a
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team low with guys who have notonly been there, but some of them
have been there together at this point, you know, namely Jalen Brown,
Jason Tatum, Al Horford, PeytonPritchard. Those guys have been around together
through a couple different iterations of thisCeltics team. But Derek White was there
in the past, and you know, now you add in Porzingis and that
sort of thing. Drew Holliday obviouslyas a champion too. Boston just never
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panicked. When they were down eighteen, it did not change. They just
came back the next possession. Youknow, the two times that Indiana got
up by that much, it wasfor like one or two possessions. They
were up by eighteen points. It'snot as if they led for an entire
quarter and they had all the momentum. It's like they got to this high
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water mark and then just continue togo down and Boston just caught right back
up. I was so impressed withthe poise that the Celtics played with possession
to possession. And look, whenyou win sixty four games in a season,
that means you won a lot ofgames, but in a lot of
different ways. You've been in thosesituations before to go, oh yeah,
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I remember back in early February,we were down eighteen points, we came
back. We can do this.And I know Boston was rarely down this
season. That's another part of ittoo, But all of those guys have
been around long enough and in thesesituations, and I think there's that individual
and collective knowledge to go, yeah, Okay, Indiana's up eighteen, that's
great, we know this. Thatteam can score, but they don't stop
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anybody. And we've been in XYZsituations. Here's how we got back.
We can do this again. Andthey just didn't get overshadowed by the moment.
And I don't think they lost thebelief that they won sixty four games,
and no other team in the NBAcame even close to that this year.
Even if sixty four like that's that'simpressive, but that's not one of
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the all time great finishes, butthe best team in the West. Two
of them had fifty seven wins,the Pacers forty seven wins is who Boston
was playing. So I think therewas still without getting too cool about it
like Minnesota did, there was thatconfidence to go, let's just keep doing
what we're doing. They had excellentgame plans too. You've got superstars,
(25:15):
you've got star role players. Everybodywas locked in and did their jobs,
and they just they kept their coolinstead of being too cool. I I
just can't fathom how how Indiana Bluelate game leads what three three of these
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games, three the three of thefour losses, they had to lead late
in the game, and they didn'thave Tyre's Halliburton for two of them,
you know, but yeah, butthey were but they were still up at
the end of the fourth quarter,which means you should more often not not
get to overtime. For example.I mean, granted it was Haliburton that
didn't put up his arms and itfedt for not to foul. Was it
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Tatum that made that three to sendit overtime? And then they were what
was in game four? They wereup two or three with like forty seconds
to go or something like that,like at home, at home, at
home. No, not forty Therewasn't much time left. Yeah, they
were up to me like, I'dbe losing my brain if this happened to
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the Knicks, right, like toknow that you had big leads late against
the Celtics in Boston. You hadleads late, very very late, in
the last two minutes against Boston inBoston and the other game as well as
in Game four, the clincher therefor Boston. How do you not end
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up with one of them? That'sthat's the great question. At least have
one, at least have one likeGame one. Probably Game one should have
been the game minimal. Game oneshould have been the game. And I
think what you said about Boston notpanicking is about the cleanest way to describe
(27:18):
it. Is that no matter whatthe situation was, they know who they
are. They know they'll shoot abunch of threes, they know they're a
pretty decent defensive team. Yes,they know. They know they can get
to a spot. They know they'vegot superstars on their side, and they
know and their role players are allformer stars themselves. That's the other big
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thing. Every single one of therole players, like of the starting group
is a former All Star, right, and the vast majority of that group
has been through this test before.They know that a team like Indiana is
a young team, is a teamthat's going to go through aps and flows.
They've got a musterless storm, andIndiana went through just long stretches of
(28:04):
not being able to do anything.And it was despite playing hard. You
know, I thought the Pacers playedhard the whole time. It was but
it was that execution thing. Again. I've gone through this thing. I've
used this analogy before when my friendand I would play racquetball for whatever reason,
I would lead him a lot oftimes late, but with one or
two points to go, I couldnever get that last point before he would
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come back as someone who was justmore athletic, who someone was just mentally
I guess in a better spot tobe able to handle situations like that would
always come back. And it frustratethe crap out of me, and that
get into my head even more.You know, it feels like I don't
know if that's the situation necessarily forIndiana, but it does feel like that
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once you sort of see Boston teeteringon the edge of being able to beat
them in this series, because afterGame three it was kind of a foregone
conclusion. I think most people thoughtthe game four, even though Indiana not
lost a home until game three,that it was going to be a boss
And they still they played really hardand really tough. It's just when they
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needed the absolute nails moments at thevery end of the game, they couldn't
get them. They couldn't get inboundpasses to work. And I'm going away
from Game four and at this pointthey couldn't get inbound passes, like they
just gave away games and it wasshots, shots were flat. It did
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kind of feel like that maybe thatlike they may have been a little bit
in their head, like they werejust struggling to get like one of these
has to go, one of thesehas to go, if one of these
coasts they were good, if oneof these goals were good, and they
just were a little a little outof sorts, and a little goes a
long way. I think you sawa little bit with Indiana the same with
Minnesota that when things got tight,certain players and not just the Stars,
(29:59):
but a lot of guys then startto go, oh, man, I
have to help us get out ofthis, so I'm to play even harder.
Sometimes that means recklessly and then notsmart and out of the game plan.
I got to take more shots.I have to be more aggressive,
because that's what everybody's told and that'sthe that's the cliche that you hear on
every broadcast. So and so needsto be more aggressive. But then that
means forcing shots, shots that youdon't normally take, or that you're not
(30:22):
being patient to find that great shot. And you saw Minnesota devolve into hero
ball in that thirty point loss.You or what turned out to be twenty
one points, but it was thirtyfor much of that game. You know,
it was hero ball in Indiana duringsome of their worst times devolved into
that. But you'd feel a lotbetter with hero ball if the one guy
capable of playing hero ball, Tyre'sHalliburton, was on the court. Pascal
(30:45):
Siakam is not a hero ball guy. Neither is Miles Turner, even if
they're both, you know, allstar fringe, all star level. None
of the other role players. Youknow, Andrew Nemhart is the guy that
I'll call out because he had agreat series, but he's not quite to
that point where you want Andrew Nemhartplaying hero ball, and he had to
(31:06):
do it a few times with Halliburnout and we saw the results. So
the bad news is, I thinktheir youth caught up to them. Their
inexperience caught up to them. Thegood news is, like with Minnesota,
this is how you get that experience. It is the tough losses, the
ones that stick in your cross forthe rest of your career that you learn
(31:26):
something from. And the good newsis the vast majority of this Pacers team
is young, and they're going tobe another year season and entering their prime.
And even somebody like Turner or Siakamwho's a little bit older at this
point, they're not old, youknow, and they've been around the block
enough, but they're still within theprime of their career. So Indiana's got
(31:48):
a lot of stuff to build on. You hope that they're able to come
back and actually build on it.That this isn't an Atlanta Hawk situation from
like three four years ago where theywere so great, or even the Sacramento
Kings last year. They catch everybodyby surprise. They have a great season,
everybody talks all summer about how muchbetter they're going to be, and
(32:08):
then they come out and they layan egg because people aren't surprised by them
anymore. And you know, sothat's that's gonna be the big challenge for
Indiana's to actually build on. Thissame thing happened to Minnesota last season.
They pulled the go Bear trade inbut they were coming off that that fun
year where they were ousted by theGrizzlies in the first round. It was
a great kind of comeback from Minnesota. And then last year they really struggled
(32:32):
too. So being a young teamon the come up is fun, it's
exciting, it's frustrating, and itcan be dangerous also. All Right,
so then the finals, everybody wantedoft in Dallas. What do you what
(32:52):
are your initial thoughts on it.Dallas is playing fantastically, They're hot.
They hit a level I don't thinkany of us thought that they were capable
of, but you've seen flashes ofit over the last half of the season.
Boston, on the other hand,you know, I think they're going
(33:12):
to get Porzingis back during the finals. How they deploy him and how much
rust he has is a big question. But Boston has Drew Holliday, Jalen
Brown, Derek White, and evenJason Tatum. They got a lot of
really good wing defenders that they're goingto be throwing out there against Dallas.
I thought the same thing about Minnesotaand it wasn't enough. So there is
(33:34):
still the possibility that if Luca andKyrie continue an all time playoff run down
the stretch here, that there's notanything Boston can do about it. Because
I do think that Luca and Kyrietogether is a It's a more talented duo,
a more dangerous duo than Jason Tatumand Jalen Brown. I do think
(33:57):
Dallas has the edge there in thestar power role player wise, I think
it's about even for both teams.They're both stacked. They've got a lot
of depth. They've got a lotof guys who give you different looks,
who execute the game plan, whodo what they want. Dallas has become
the new lob city. Boston justhas plug and play guys who keep that
machine humming. So I'm gonna goBoston in six because Boston again had the
(34:23):
they had the better record all year. They They've lost one time in the
playoffs so far, just once they'vegot as much momentum as Dallas has.
But yeah, Dallas is dangerous.Dallas is a true wild card where you
go, this is a team thatis peaking at exactly the right time,
(34:45):
and they've got all the ingredients tobe able to pull off one of these
one off championships that we see fromyou know, like the Raptors did a
few years ago whatever, and theNuggets last year to pull a one off
on you, Dallas, Dallas,they pulled up. I mean, granted
that team was better for a longerstretch of time, but finally broke through.
But you know they've done this before. They broke through and they were
(35:07):
the team that wasn't expected to beatMiami and then they've beat Miami and you're
like, wow, okay, ye, good job, Derek. Now,
when all the threes were falling,there was nothing you could do, and
Dallas is capable of that for sure. Yeah. I struggle with this one
because Boston is the favorite. Dallasis a team I don't want to root
(35:27):
for either now that one of theseteams I'm a fan of. Right now,
They've too many teams you dislike thisfar into the playoffs. Yeah,
that's one hundred percent of them.To be fair, I don't hate Dallas
as much as a player on Dallasand or for Boston. It's the Tigre
franchise. This is a career savingyear. And we talked a little bit
about this last week, but thisis a career saving year for Kyrie Irving.
(35:51):
He's he's saved his legacy this year. He has saved his next contract,
maybe even his next two contracts.He's gonna get chances like he This
is just proof that even a guylike James Harden, there's still is time.
You still could put your head onstraight and get this turnaround. Ben
Simmons Still, yeah, you stillcould get this turnaround. Ben Simmons like,
(36:16):
but it has to start with buyinginto something. You know. Carrie
Every's only thirty two, and wewere talking about how he was close to
maybe mentally getting himself out of thegame, Like, yeah, the way
it was, but he's been fromeverything. I've heard a good teammate this
year. Uh, and clearly onthe court that they're missing uh pretty well.
(36:37):
I I I think Boston is thebetter team, but I think my
but I think Dallas is the moremore tested team this particular playoffs. That
is true, but I don't well, I don't. I don't think this
(37:00):
is the year for Dallas to getit done. I just don't want to
say that out loud, Like Idon't think this is a one off year.
I think Boston has been building towardthis and they've just been tweaking and
tweaking and tweaking and finally probably beable to get Christos Porzingis back to be
able to play in the finals.It's gonna be a big step for them.
Even if you bring him off thebench, Even if you bring him
(37:22):
off the bench in the place youknow that Luke Cornett was playing before he
hurt his hand, and it's twentyminutes a game, you know, and
it's a little bit less of oShaper said and Xavier Tillman, that would
still be a major benefit for theCeltics. And that's the route I would
go versus trying to fit him backin the starting lineup. I think I
would lean Boston. Depressingly would Iwould lean Boston. Uh? First,
(37:46):
I would root for a sinkhold openup under that that arena. The fans
be okay, just well, someof the fans. You just want the
banners. You just want the bannersto fall into the same You can't reprint
those, That's the thing like whenthey go, history goes. So I
(38:06):
think for credibility's sake, I leanBoston just to be able to be right.
I don't think this is a longseries, though, I think you
push it. Six is pushing it. I'm with you. Six is a
push. But but I think Boston. I think Boston's gonna go five.
Man. I think they're I thinkthe guys the team's old enough, been
(38:27):
together long enough, been deep inthe playoffs long enough, been in the
finals long enough before that, thisis the place that they just they break
through. They finally break through andfor the first taps in so wait,
they're holding the lob. They've gotsix different players on that roster who have
been All Stars or are capable ofbeing All Stars still at this point in
their career. And it's not ayou know, super team type of setup
(38:53):
because a lot of those guys havebeen All Stars that fit and filled a
lot of gaps. They were nottrick pony All Stars. Al Horford was
always a gap filler, so isDrew Holliday. Derek White is a gap
filler and he's you know, beenon Team USA before. Jalen Brown in
a lot of ways too, Like, yes, he can score, but
he does so many other things.Jason Tatum is the only one that I
(39:15):
look at where I go that's aspecialized superstar. Maybe Kristaps Porzingis, you
know, is more of a shooter, but he is a shot blocker too,
so they're multifaceted their veteran. Youmade the point that Dallas has had
the tougher run. That is true. Boston. They play an incredibly dinged
up Miami team in the first roundthat just ran out of bodies. They
(39:37):
play a Cavaliers team that wilted awayin their series and had no bodies left
by the time it was done.And then against the Pacers, yeah,
they were without Ben Mathrin, butyou lose Tyre's Halliburton for half the series
two. That is such a hugeThat's that's enormous because that's the engine that
you know, pun intended drives thePacers car, and they they just don't
(40:00):
have the star power otherwise. Soyou're right, Boston has had a lot
of teams fall down hurt in frontof them. Whereas Dallas is going to
come in about as healthy as youcould be. Derek Lively dealing with the
neck injury and the head injury.Mexicaliba is not right yet, but he's
playing. He had a big shotat against the Wolves in Game five.
(40:20):
So they've got just about everybody thatthey normally would have, and that's where
I think Dallas is capable of winninga couple of games. That's why I'm
picking this to be a six gameseries. But you're right, Boston,
both on paper and from what we'veseen all year. They just they've had
that evidence to back them up untilsomebody proves otherwise. Sadly, the Knicks
(40:42):
don't get to do it, sothere you go, do the Wolves?
They neither do the Wolves. Sadtrombone for both of us. Right,
it was fun, well lasted.I'll take this over a twenty win season
any any day of the week.Me too, Me too, All right,
job, let's go do it forus? Who's thinking about it?
(41:02):
To good people? Goodbye, goodpeople. If you want the video version
of this year podcast, we areon YouTube where you can like, share,
subscribe to all that good stuff.If you want the audio only version
at Spreakers, Spotify, iTunes,wherever you get your podcasts. This has
been Basketball by Association and we willsee you in the NBA Finals coming up next
Welcome to Basketball Association style. Uhhere with the heartbroken Joelsey Cordez, the
scarred veteran of these playoffs. Myname is Arkie, Say Joel MAVs Celtics.
Exactly the way we prepredicted, thesame way we predicted it too,
it would happen the same. Youtechnically were right as far as your prediction,
(00:23):
but as far as the way everythinghappened, not even close to right,
not for either what is good.This is how I know the NBA
is not rigged, because why wouldthe NBA want both these series to go
like this like they would so quickly? Yeah, they wouldn't, and they
one won't blowout in game decided likethey just wouldn't. So Joel, let's
(00:47):
just go ahead and start with yourimmediate thoughts following the untimely demise of the
Anthony Edwards crew. So one,I hope I don't have to wait twenty
more years to get back to thisposition, because twenty years has been a
long long time. Yeah, twothousand and four in the KUP. But
number two, this was this wasa surprise legitimately for me, and you
(01:07):
mentioned that part of the predictions wereright. I did put the Dallas Mavericks
in the Western Conference Finals, butI had them against Denver. I did
put the Boston Celtics in the NBAFinals in my predictions. They are there.
So when we were predicting these individualseries, like you picked Dallas still
to win and you picked Boston,no, I had. I had Minnesota
(01:29):
over I had Minnesota over Dallas.I had Denver over Minnesota. In the
second round, I picked Denver inseven games over Minnesota. But once we
got to this and again we didn'ttape last week before some of this was
going on, but yeah, Ididn't pick Dallas to get to the finals.
I picked Minnesota. At that point, I believed that Minnesota would be
able to move through Dallas in sixgames, maybe even five, because the
(01:53):
Wolves had not really had a problemwith Dallas during the regular season. Minnesota
had shown a lot of things duringthe Denver series, they had shown a
lot of things during the Phoenix seriesand sweeping the Suns team the one that
had given them problems during the regularseason, and it just seemed like they
continued to get better through these biggerchallenges and Dallas, you know, no
disrespect to them, and had areally nice playoffs but it's like, Okay,
(02:17):
you beat the Clippers, a teamthat didn't have Kawhi Leonard for the
whole time, only for part ofit. They've been really up and down
and inconsistent. You beat the Thunder, the number one team in the West.
That's nice. But the Thunder reallyweren't the number one team in the
West most of the way, andthey were young, and they got exposed.
And I just looked at all thedifferent on paper advantages that Minnesota should
(02:38):
have and I am surprised because notonly did they get out played, they
got thoroughly outplayed. And it's crazythat in Game five, first quarter,
near the end of the first quarter, Dallas goes up by fourteen. That
was the largest lead of the entireseries up to that point that Dallas had
(02:59):
had. Fine really was in Yeah, they had only been up by fourteen
points, but they controlled a lota lot during the series. And what
the other crazy part When I lookat Game five, it was a blowout,
it was a beatdown, it wasa butt kicking, it was all
those different things. Yes, itwas only twenty one points at the end.
(03:19):
But the crazy thing to me iswhen you look at the box score
and I know, that doesn't alwaystell a full story, but it tells
enough. Minnesota wasn't that far offin rebounds, in turnovers, and assists
in you know, you look atany of these metrics basic as they might
be. Shooting percentage. Sure,the may have shot the lights out at
(03:39):
fifty five percent and they were fortyfour percent from downtown. It seemed like
in that game archy that they wereninety percent from the field and eighty percent
from downtown, like they couldn't actually, you know, like they couldn't miss.
And then Minnesota, on the otherhand, shot forty three percent from
the field. That's not great,but that's not getting blown out bad.
(04:00):
And thirty percent from downtown also notgreat, but the number of shots is
relatively even. In fact, Minnesotagot more shots than Dallas got free throws
was relatively even. But you cannottell me that the stats tell the story
of what the eyeball test showed inGame five. Oh uh, it was.
(04:25):
It was ugly fun Yeah, yeah, I was trying to think,
like, if they're a way Icould spend that, No, I can't.
I can't spend that year. You'reright, You're right, Like it's
to me, it's like what whenthe Knicks got punked down in game seven,
it's like, Wow, why can'tIndiana miss? Like? Why why
is this this game? The gamethat could eliminate them, the game where
(04:45):
the other t what they cannot miss? And at home anything? Yeah,
and at home right, you're rightnot to mention that you guys were going
after dudes next literally like you guyswere just trying to murder people, which
is fun. Right, Look,I don't know how much you want to
give into that and talk about thatand with It's just especially because the way
(05:06):
the series ended up going, right, it's not that it's going to impact
anything serious. Why it's going forward. I go ahead, I've got thoughts
on Dallas, but we'll get tothem in a minute. I was just
gonna say, like I am,I'm not surprised that there was a blowout
in this series, and I'm noteven so surprised that it was in a
(05:28):
decisive game as much as that Ithought it was so decisive after this one,
after we had just seen Minnesota sortof get through the wall and sort
of maybe again, three to zerois tough. Three to one, it's
still very tough, but there's alittle hanging on going back home, right,
you know you're going back home.You can feel a little bit,
(05:50):
you know, good. But home'sbeen a tricky place for Minnesota in the
playoffs. Like it's yeah, SoI'm a little surprised even tho. If
I just paid attention to the trendsfor this playoffs the Minnesota, I maybe
shouldn't be, but I'm I can'thelp but be disappointed because i thought Minnesota
(06:11):
would win and be the better team. I'm really surprised at how hot Luca
and Kyrie were getting in that gameand how good they have been in this
playoffs for basically the totality of it, Like they essentially did what I think
like the Miami heat of tone,which is they're fine, they're good,
they get to the playoffs and aflipped a switch just got flipped, and
(06:33):
so they just superseded everything. Ithought Dallas was going to be in this
series. I did think they mighthave a shot at it. I did
not think they'd be doing gentleman's sweepagefor Dallas. That comes down to a
few different things. And this also, I think speaks to how and why
(06:54):
Minnesota lost the way that they did. Dallas had two stars that were locked
in that yes, at times absolutelycould not miss, but even when they
missed shots, they were locked intothe game plan. They moved the basketball,
they both defended, they were aggressivewhen they needed to be, they
got other guys involved. They thoroughlyoutplayed And I don't care what the box
(07:16):
score says in any one game,but we all know about Karl Anthony town
struggles. But even with Anthony Edwards, Kyrie and Luca played in command the
entire time and they were in controland they outplayed Towns and Edwards. But
you know what, that's kind ofhow it should be. Towns and Edwards
are on the come up. Edwardsas a young guy, Towns has never
(07:38):
been on winning teams up to thispoint. Really, I mean, he's
been on a couple over the lastfew years, but not teams in this
position before. Kyrie's a champion.You know, Luca's been to the Western
Conference finals two years ago. He'sbeen in the playoffs multiple multiple times.
And that's just at the NBA level. He is a champion overseas. These
two guys are veterans and they knowwhat they're doing. And then the supporting
(08:01):
cast for Dallas again executed a gameplan from start to finish. Throughout the
series, you never got the sensethat Dallas didn't know what to do or
what was going on. They werefiery, but they were calm in their
execution, whereas on the other sidewith Minnesota and Anthony Edwards kind of said
this too, like you would constantlylook at the Wolves and they're looking around
(08:22):
as if they don't know what todo, where there's frustration or there's guys
that are hesitating on shots, orespecially in Game five, they were playing
hard, but it was hard nervous. You could just tell that they were
tight. You know, shots arebeing released at different points than normal,
or rushed or short armed. It'sall these you know, the balls getting
(08:43):
lost a little bit on freak turnovers, and those are little things that when
you watch body language and if you'vewatched the game long enough, you can
tell when a team is tight ora player is And the Wolves were tight
going back home. But that wasnot the first time it had happened in
this series. I thought Minnieso sothat the the real big sin was losing
your first two games at home.You you came out way too cool,
(09:07):
way too cool. I don't knowyou believe press clippings or what it was
after the Denver series. But that'sa great that's a great descriptor of it.
They were a little too cool forschool. They thought they had got
they slayed the dragon, right,the defending champ dragon. It thought,
all right, well, you gotwhat was the five seed? You got
this five seed coming in here.We run this thing. We got through
(09:28):
the biggest day obstacle we got toget through. And you got wiley veterans.
You know, Luca's been, youknow, not as deep as Kyrie
in the playoffs, but he's hadgotten themselves a couple of steps through already,
those dudes, and they got veteranson that team. This team was
ready to play in Minnesota, wasn'tearly. I think that's a really great
way to put it. What doyou think of catch three point barrage?
(09:52):
He just wouldn't. So now thenare shoot shoot? But come on,
Kat, the rest of the offseason, the narrative is going to be,
because it's already started. Stephen Ais parroting this now trade Cat you
know, and anybody who's listened tothis show, the dozens of you who
have listened to the show, youknow that It's been well over a year
(10:15):
that I've been saying Cat needs togo. He is the weak link on
the progression of this team. He'sa talented player, he's a good dude.
I've always said that I respect whathe, you know, brought to
the table over these years, buthe is the weak link. And he
has been in the league long enoughto try to overcome these things and not.
And it's not just yeah, hedidn't shoot well. It was a
(10:37):
terrible series shooting wise, Oh mygod. But then what else did he
bring to the table? I knowthe box score will say he had twenty
eight and twelve in Game five andGame four he had a nice game too,
but he fouled out a Game fourthe game exactly. The fouls and
the defensive issues continue, the offensivefowl continue. And then on top of
(11:01):
it, if and when you havegames where you go cold, which is
gonna happen, maybe even entire serieswhere you go cold, what do you
do to get out of it?What else do you contribute? Unfortunately,
Towns, he is a one trickpony. He is a very good offensive
player in the scoring category, andhe's a good passer, but he turns
(11:22):
it over he gets offensive files whichare turnovers to and then defensively it's there's
just not enough production elsewhere and hedoesn't fit. They tried it with the
Go Beart and Towns pairing. Townshas been the week link. Go Bear,
I know, is not an offensivethreat. His box score sucked in
game five he got outplayed by DanielGafford, but Towns got really outplayed by
(11:43):
Daniel Gafford, and Gobert just makesmore sense with what they have. You
need to trade Karl Anthony Towns fora three and D wing. You know,
Mikhale Bridges from the Nets would bemy dream pick. Send Towns back
to the New Jersey area where he'sfrom. Jeremy Grant from Portland is just
hanging out there, not doing anythingand would be a nice fit with this
(12:05):
team too. There are fits likethat, you know, Trade them to
the Lakers, I don't care.Put them with Anthony Davis, put him
with Lebron, give me Austin Reeves, bring back Jared Vanderbilt, Prian princeon
whatever else you can get your handson. Like I think that the Wolves
with Anthony Edwards playing a massive supersizedlineup is nice sometimes, but that's what
you have Nas Reid for. Youdon't need Towns to make them sort of
(12:28):
look work. Read has been thebetter player, the smarter player, get
a three and D wing and giveyourself the ability to go small sometimes too,
and a player that's not going tobe making so many mistakes. So
it's that's gonna be the narrative.Towns is gonna get blamed for more than
he should because the numbers were damning. I mean they were, they were
bad for the whole series. ButI thought Chris Finch got out coached much
(12:52):
of this series, or Mike andNorri or both. You know, Finch
was hurt and coaching from the theback of the sidelines. Dallas had a
better game play and their guys wereready to play. Stan Van Gundy called
this out throughout the series. Whyis Minnesota not putting Luka Doncic into rotation
defensively? Why are you not runningscreens that involved Luca coming up and then
(13:18):
getting him to be the primary defender. Luca got to camp out defensively on
Jade McDaniels or Kyle Anderson or whoever, and just rest possession after possession after
possession, rest on the defensive endand then come back and be able to
dominate offensively. That's not how youtry to go after him. Kyrie again
a game defender at this point,but a guy that you should be pushing
(13:41):
mismatches and Dallas never allowed that reallyto happen, and Minnesota for whatever reason,
did not try to exploit that.But body language wise, they this
falls on the coaching staff too,And for the young guys, I do
have silver linings, but we'll talkabout that in a minute. Well,
I don't really have much else fornas Reed is a legend killer or so
our Lively killer. My man,Uh, let's I'll say this, and
(14:07):
I's had a bad game five too, by the way, he was only
five points to ten, four,like he's there's a lot of in that
game. That's a lot of frustrationin that game. I think that's the
second time that Lively took that hiton the back of the neck blowout.
It's just it's tough, like whenwhen Anthony Edwards is hitting like a New
(14:28):
Logo three cutting it to thirty andeveryone's cheering like it's it's a tough game.
It's a tough scene for everybody.Uh. There, if you wanted
silver linings. We can go tothe Boston moving forward. Minnesota got real
tongue in cheek after the Denver win, you know, and they were told
(14:48):
about going through steps and how theyhad kind of advanced a step. And
I think it was you who sentme that clip of you know Edwards and
Town's laughing, going, how muchmore do we have to lose? Like
we've been losing. We've done allthese steps, And that's true. They
had lost plenty, they had beenpushing, they had been a playoff contender
over the last three seasons. However, if there's a silver lining in this,
(15:09):
it's that Minnesota, when they've gottenthemselves in trouble this year, has
been too cool for school sometimes.That was a major problem last year,
and this is another example that youcan't do that. Anthony Edwards still continues
to he needs to continue diversifying hisoffensive game. As electric and explosive as
(15:31):
it is. You saw that whenbottled up by a wall of defenders,
and Denver did this to him.Also, he gets a little bit limited
and still falls back into some ofthose rookie and sophomore year mistakes where he
just launches himself into the defense tryingto get a call. He will get
better, he will continue to improve. But also for Edwards, I think
it was exposed and maybe he wastalking too much trash, Like you want
(15:54):
to go after Kyrie, Irving andLuca and talking trash before the season the
series has even started. Might notbe a great idea. I don't want
to take away that killer edge fromEdwards, but when he signed up to
be the primary defender on Kyrie,that did not last the whole series because
it kind of showed that as goodof a defender as Edwards is, asking
him to be the lead defender everypossession and then your lead offensive player,
(16:18):
especially if the supporting cast is notdoing their part. In Townsens is playing
like garbage. Edwards got tired.He had dead legs by the end of
nearly every game in this series.And maybe it's the length of the season.
He's never played this far in whateverit was. You're coming off the
seven game series in Denver, sothere's that conditioning that will continue to happen.
(16:38):
There's understanding the pace, there's maybeunderstanding like, oh, as superhuman
as Aunt is, he's still ishuman, and the limit might be we're
going to deploy him as our leaddefender situationally, not just because he stepped
up and admirably so to say no, I got Kyrie. That may not
be realistic on this team, withthis offense and the way it sputters at
(17:02):
times. So you've learned some things. Jaden McDaniels will be a year older
next year, So will Nas Reid, so will Nikail, Alexander Walker,
Soul, Anthony Edwards. That's youryoung court. Rudy Gobert is still gonna
have stuff left in the tank nextyear. We wonder about Mike Conley.
He's gonna have to go, youknow, probably fewer minutes again next season.
Towns is the X factor. Thereare some young guys on the bench
(17:26):
who maybe could deserve some more minutes, but I don't know that they're gonna
step into a situation. If you'rejust trading Towns just to get rid of
them, you're gonna need something back. But I also am very wary of
this team, and I don't knowthat Tim Connolly the GM, will do
it because he doesn't seem to besuper conservative. But there could be that
(17:48):
temptation to go, hey, wemade it to the Western Conference finals,
let's just run it back. Thatwould be a mistake. The silver lining
here is you had an entire seasonwhere Towns and go Bear were relatively healthy.
I know Towns missed some time atthe end, but you had a
large body of work to look atthe experiment, see all of the ways
(18:10):
that it did work and proved alot of us wrong. But also I
think to see where the ceiling andthe limitation is with this idea, and
more specifically where the limitation is withKarl Anthony Towns under a very bright spotlight.
You've learned these lessons. The silverlining has to be that you learn
(18:30):
and move on. Now. Youfeel pretty strong about that, and you've
talked about that throughout the season.Preseason, I think I'm gonna defer to
you You've seen a lot more ofCarothity Towns with this program than I have,
so I'm not always right. Ididn't think Dallas would win. You
know, I could be wrong onthis one too, but there is a
(18:52):
large body of work that and alot of other people saying the same thing
at this point too. I feelpretty confident on this one. It's a
good thing. It's good that you'renot listening to your top player when Anthony
Edwards just was telling a tongue incheek not so now to Anthony Edwards,
Hey, maybe stop bouting everybody.You know, we'll be all right,
And then he fouls out of It'sjust just it's clear that Anthony Edwards knows
(19:15):
who his guy is, Like heknows who Carl that he towns is,
and he's just like, just chillout on that. We'll probably be okay
for the most part. Yeah,and he got hit some shots, My
friend, what do you have gotto hit over? Like? What was
it like? At one point itwas like what did I see one point
of like twelve or forty eight orsomething like that. Or I think he
(19:36):
was thirty one percent from the floorin the series And I may be wrong
here, but I'm close thirty onepercent from the floor twenty three percent from
downtown for the series from three,So I was thinking that he just kept
that. And then Minnesota won threehome games all playoffs. They got to
the Western Conference Finals and only wonthree times at home. Twice was against
(19:56):
Phoenix in the sweep, and thatbeat Denver one at home once at home
during that seven game series. Sokudos to them for winning some road games.
They were a good home team thisyear. They were a good road
team this year, and it wasone of the signs of maturation that they
were finally protecting a home court.But that's another that's another pretty damning statistic
(20:19):
when you cannot win at home.And maybe again it's something to learn from,
it's something you'll get better at,but it is a major thing that
needs to change. You're not goingto make it very far if you've got
no home court advantage. And Idon't necessarily think that's a fan thing,
you know, like that's the teamlearning how to get the fans involved in
the game and give them something toactually cheer about. Boston will be the
(20:44):
Dallas Mavericks opponent, and frankly,another series that went much differently than I
was expecting, not in the finalresult, but the fact that this series
shifts to probably be playing right now, like Indiana gave up games plural in
this series, including one you cannotgive up, including Game one in Boston.
(21:07):
Joe, I'll obviously get your thoughtson it, but I'd said before
the series, I thought between thetwo the Knicks and the Pacers, I
thought the Knicks were the better team. With healthy to be able to play
Boston. They clearly were far fromhealthy by the time that series was over.
So then to play Boston, Ithought Indiana had the chance. And
(21:30):
in my defense, Joelsey Cordis,they played him really well for a while,
like multiple games in this series,and to just drop one in the
punch bowl, like it's look,I hate Boston, it's disheartening to sort
(21:53):
of watch, but I hate Indianatoy. To be honest, it's a
little disheartening to watch a team likeIndiana to go through something like that.
When you to me, it feltlike you could have lost all the energy
off that team after Game one,all of the comdit just sucked out and
he kind of showed a little gametoo. But they still played really well,
(22:15):
and they still had multiple chances towin multiple games in this series.
Joe, why didn't they? SoI know, you're pointing the finger a
lot at Indiana, and there weredumb turnovers, there were misshots, there
were times that they got tight.But you look at that roster and outside
of Pascal Siakam, who is achampion and you know, made some runs
(22:36):
with the Raptors, but really it'sone year the only other guy on the
roster playing major minutes who's had someplayoff experience is Miles Turner, but those
were mostly sweeps during the Nate McMillanera, and Turner never got far into
the playoffs during his time there.So this is new territory for them,
just like it was for the Timberwolves. When I looked at Boston, a
(22:59):
team low with guys who have notonly been there, but some of them
have been there together at this point, you know, namely Jalen Brown,
Jason Tatum, Al Horford, PeytonPritchard. Those guys have been around together
through a couple different iterations of thisCeltics team. But Derek White was there
in the past, and you know, now you add in Porzingis and that
sort of thing. Drew Holliday obviouslyas a champion too. Boston just never
(23:25):
panicked. When they were down eighteen, it did not change. They just
came back the next possession. Youknow, the two times that Indiana got
up by that much, it wasfor like one or two possessions. They
were up by eighteen points. It'snot as if they led for an entire
quarter and they had all the momentum. It's like they got to this high
(23:45):
water mark and then just continue togo down and Boston just caught right back
up. I was so impressed withthe poise that the Celtics played with possession
to possession. And look, whenyou win sixty four games in a season,
that means you won a lot ofgames, but in a lot of
different ways. You've been in thosesituations before to go, oh yeah,
(24:07):
I remember back in early February,we were down eighteen points, we came
back. We can do this.And I know Boston was rarely down this
season. That's another part of ittoo, But all of those guys have
been around long enough and in thesesituations, and I think there's that individual
and collective knowledge to go, yeah, Okay, Indiana's up eighteen, that's
great, we know this. Thatteam can score, but they don't stop
(24:30):
anybody. And we've been in XYZsituations. Here's how we got back.
We can do this again. Andthey just didn't get overshadowed by the moment.
And I don't think they lost thebelief that they won sixty four games,
and no other team in the NBAcame even close to that this year.
Even if sixty four like that's that'simpressive, but that's not one of
(24:53):
the all time great finishes, butthe best team in the West. Two
of them had fifty seven wins,the Pacers forty seven wins is who Boston
was playing. So I think therewas still without getting too cool about it
like Minnesota did, there was thatconfidence to go, let's just keep doing
what we're doing. They had excellentgame plans too. You've got superstars,
(25:15):
you've got star role players. Everybodywas locked in and did their jobs,
and they just they kept their coolinstead of being too cool. I I
just can't fathom how how Indiana Bluelate game leads what three three of these
(25:45):
games, three the three of thefour losses, they had to lead late
in the game, and they didn'thave Tyre's Halliburton for two of them,
you know, but yeah, butthey were but they were still up at
the end of the fourth quarter,which means you should more often not not
get to overtime. For example.I mean, granted it was Haliburton that
didn't put up his arms and itfedt for not to foul. Was it
(26:07):
Tatum that made that three to sendit overtime? And then they were what
was in game four? They wereup two or three with like forty seconds
to go or something like that,like at home, at home, at
home. No, not forty Therewasn't much time left. Yeah, they
were up to me like, I'dbe losing my brain if this happened to
(26:36):
the Knicks, right, like toknow that you had big leads late against
the Celtics in Boston. You hadleads late, very very late, in
the last two minutes against Boston inBoston and the other game as well as
in Game four, the clincher therefor Boston. How do you not end
(26:57):
up with one of them? That'sthat's the great question. At least have
one, at least have one likeGame one. Probably Game one should have
been the game minimal. Game oneshould have been the game. And I
think what you said about Boston notpanicking is about the cleanest way to describe
(27:18):
it. Is that no matter whatthe situation was, they know who they
are. They know they'll shoot abunch of threes, they know they're a
pretty decent defensive team. Yes,they know. They know they can get
to a spot. They know they'vegot superstars on their side, and they
know and their role players are allformer stars themselves. That's the other big
(27:42):
thing. Every single one of therole players, like of the starting group
is a former All Star, right, and the vast majority of that group
has been through this test before.They know that a team like Indiana is
a young team, is a teamthat's going to go through aps and flows.
They've got a musterless storm, andIndiana went through just long stretches of
(28:04):
not being able to do anything.And it was despite playing hard. You
know, I thought the Pacers playedhard the whole time. It was but
it was that execution thing. Again. I've gone through this thing. I've
used this analogy before when my friendand I would play racquetball for whatever reason,
I would lead him a lot oftimes late, but with one or
two points to go, I couldnever get that last point before he would
(28:27):
come back as someone who was justmore athletic, who someone was just mentally
I guess in a better spot tobe able to handle situations like that would
always come back. And it frustratethe crap out of me, and that
get into my head even more.You know, it feels like I don't
know if that's the situation necessarily forIndiana, but it does feel like that
(28:48):
once you sort of see Boston teeteringon the edge of being able to beat
them in this series, because afterGame three it was kind of a foregone
conclusion. I think most people thoughtthe game four, even though Indiana not
lost a home until game three,that it was going to be a boss
And they still they played really hardand really tough. It's just when they
(29:08):
needed the absolute nails moments at thevery end of the game, they couldn't
get them. They couldn't get inboundpasses to work. And I'm going away
from Game four and at this pointthey couldn't get inbound passes, like they
just gave away games and it wasshots, shots were flat. It did
(29:33):
kind of feel like that maybe thatlike they may have been a little bit
in their head, like they werejust struggling to get like one of these
has to go, one of thesehas to go, if one of these
coasts they were good, if oneof these goals were good, and they
just were a little a little outof sorts, and a little goes a
long way. I think you sawa little bit with Indiana the same with
Minnesota that when things got tight,certain players and not just the Stars,
(29:59):
but a lot of guys then startto go, oh, man, I
have to help us get out ofthis, so I'm to play even harder.
Sometimes that means recklessly and then notsmart and out of the game plan.
I got to take more shots.I have to be more aggressive,
because that's what everybody's told and that'sthe that's the cliche that you hear on
every broadcast. So and so needsto be more aggressive. But then that
means forcing shots, shots that youdon't normally take, or that you're not
(30:22):
being patient to find that great shot. And you saw Minnesota devolve into hero
ball in that thirty point loss.You or what turned out to be twenty
one points, but it was thirtyfor much of that game. You know,
it was hero ball in Indiana duringsome of their worst times devolved into
that. But you'd feel a lotbetter with hero ball if the one guy
capable of playing hero ball, Tyre'sHalliburton, was on the court. Pascal
(30:45):
Siakam is not a hero ball guy. Neither is Miles Turner, even if
they're both, you know, allstar fringe, all star level. None
of the other role players. Youknow, Andrew Nemhart is the guy that
I'll call out because he had agreat series, but he's not quite to
that point where you want Andrew Nemhartplaying hero ball, and he had to
(31:06):
do it a few times with Halliburnout and we saw the results. So
the bad news is, I thinktheir youth caught up to them. Their
inexperience caught up to them. Thegood news is, like with Minnesota,
this is how you get that experience. It is the tough losses, the
ones that stick in your cross forthe rest of your career that you learn
(31:26):
something from. And the good newsis the vast majority of this Pacers team
is young, and they're going tobe another year season and entering their prime.
And even somebody like Turner or Siakamwho's a little bit older at this
point, they're not old, youknow, and they've been around the block
enough, but they're still within theprime of their career. So Indiana's got
(31:48):
a lot of stuff to build on. You hope that they're able to come
back and actually build on it.That this isn't an Atlanta Hawk situation from
like three four years ago where theywere so great, or even the Sacramento
Kings last year. They catch everybodyby surprise. They have a great season,
everybody talks all summer about how muchbetter they're going to be, and
(32:08):
then they come out and they layan egg because people aren't surprised by them
anymore. And you know, sothat's that's gonna be the big challenge for
Indiana's to actually build on. Thissame thing happened to Minnesota last season.
They pulled the go Bear trade inbut they were coming off that that fun
year where they were ousted by theGrizzlies in the first round. It was
a great kind of comeback from Minnesota. And then last year they really struggled
(32:32):
too. So being a young teamon the come up is fun, it's
exciting, it's frustrating, and itcan be dangerous also. All Right,
so then the finals, everybody wantedoft in Dallas. What do you what
(32:52):
are your initial thoughts on it.Dallas is playing fantastically, They're hot.
They hit a level I don't thinkany of us thought that they were capable
of, but you've seen flashes ofit over the last half of the season.
Boston, on the other hand,you know, I think they're going
(33:12):
to get Porzingis back during the finals. How they deploy him and how much
rust he has is a big question. But Boston has Drew Holliday, Jalen
Brown, Derek White, and evenJason Tatum. They got a lot of
really good wing defenders that they're goingto be throwing out there against Dallas.
I thought the same thing about Minnesotaand it wasn't enough. So there is
(33:34):
still the possibility that if Luca andKyrie continue an all time playoff run down
the stretch here, that there's notanything Boston can do about it. Because
I do think that Luca and Kyrietogether is a It's a more talented duo,
a more dangerous duo than Jason Tatumand Jalen Brown. I do think
(33:57):
Dallas has the edge there in thestar power role player wise, I think
it's about even for both teams.They're both stacked. They've got a lot
of depth. They've got a lotof guys who give you different looks,
who execute the game plan, whodo what they want. Dallas has become
the new lob city. Boston justhas plug and play guys who keep that
machine humming. So I'm gonna goBoston in six because Boston again had the
(34:23):
they had the better record all year. They They've lost one time in the
playoffs so far, just once they'vegot as much momentum as Dallas has.
But yeah, Dallas is dangerous.Dallas is a true wild card where you
go, this is a team thatis peaking at exactly the right time,
(34:45):
and they've got all the ingredients tobe able to pull off one of these
one off championships that we see fromyou know, like the Raptors did a
few years ago whatever, and theNuggets last year to pull a one off
on you, Dallas, Dallas,they pulled up. I mean, granted
that team was better for a longerstretch of time, but finally broke through.
But you know they've done this before. They broke through and they were
(35:07):
the team that wasn't expected to beatMiami and then they've beat Miami and you're
like, wow, okay, ye, good job, Derek. Now,
when all the threes were falling,there was nothing you could do, and
Dallas is capable of that for sure. Yeah. I struggle with this one
because Boston is the favorite. Dallasis a team I don't want to root
(35:27):
for either now that one of theseteams I'm a fan of. Right now,
They've too many teams you dislike thisfar into the playoffs. Yeah,
that's one hundred percent of them.To be fair, I don't hate Dallas
as much as a player on Dallasand or for Boston. It's the Tigre
franchise. This is a career savingyear. And we talked a little bit
about this last week, but thisis a career saving year for Kyrie Irving.
(35:51):
He's he's saved his legacy this year. He has saved his next contract,
maybe even his next two contracts.He's gonna get chances like he This
is just proof that even a guylike James Harden, there's still is time.
You still could put your head onstraight and get this turnaround. Ben
Simmons Still, yeah, you stillcould get this turnaround. Ben Simmons like,
(36:16):
but it has to start with buyinginto something. You know. Carrie
Every's only thirty two, and wewere talking about how he was close to
maybe mentally getting himself out of thegame, Like, yeah, the way
it was, but he's been fromeverything. I've heard a good teammate this
year. Uh, and clearly onthe court that they're missing uh pretty well.
(36:37):
I I I think Boston is thebetter team, but I think my
but I think Dallas is the moremore tested team this particular playoffs. That
is true, but I don't well, I don't. I don't think this
(37:00):
is the year for Dallas to getit done. I just don't want to
say that out loud, Like Idon't think this is a one off year.
I think Boston has been building towardthis and they've just been tweaking and
tweaking and tweaking and finally probably beable to get Christos Porzingis back to be
able to play in the finals.It's gonna be a big step for them.
Even if you bring him off thebench, Even if you bring him
(37:22):
off the bench in the place youknow that Luke Cornett was playing before he
hurt his hand, and it's twentyminutes a game, you know, and
it's a little bit less of oShaper said and Xavier Tillman, that would
still be a major benefit for theCeltics. And that's the route I would
go versus trying to fit him backin the starting lineup. I think I
would lean Boston. Depressingly would Iwould lean Boston. Uh? First,
(37:46):
I would root for a sinkhold openup under that that arena. The fans
be okay, just well, someof the fans. You just want the
banners. You just want the bannersto fall into the same You can't reprint
those, That's the thing like whenthey go, history goes. So I
(38:06):
think for credibility's sake, I leanBoston just to be able to be right.
I don't think this is a longseries, though, I think you
push it. Six is pushing it. I'm with you. Six is a
push. But but I think Boston. I think Boston's gonna go five.
Man. I think they're I thinkthe guys the team's old enough, been
(38:27):
together long enough, been deep inthe playoffs long enough, been in the
finals long enough before that, thisis the place that they just they break
through. They finally break through andfor the first taps in so wait,
they're holding the lob. They've gotsix different players on that roster who have
been All Stars or are capable ofbeing All Stars still at this point in
their career. And it's not ayou know, super team type of setup
(38:53):
because a lot of those guys havebeen All Stars that fit and filled a
lot of gaps. They were nottrick pony All Stars. Al Horford was
always a gap filler, so isDrew Holliday. Derek White is a gap
filler and he's you know, beenon Team USA before. Jalen Brown in
a lot of ways too, Like, yes, he can score, but
he does so many other things.Jason Tatum is the only one that I
(39:15):
look at where I go that's aspecialized superstar. Maybe Kristaps Porzingis, you
know, is more of a shooter, but he is a shot blocker too,
so they're multifaceted their veteran. Youmade the point that Dallas has had
the tougher run. That is true. Boston. They play an incredibly dinged
up Miami team in the first roundthat just ran out of bodies. They
(39:37):
play a Cavaliers team that wilted awayin their series and had no bodies left
by the time it was done.And then against the Pacers, yeah,
they were without Ben Mathrin, butyou lose Tyre's Halliburton for half the series
two. That is such a hugeThat's that's enormous because that's the engine that
you know, pun intended drives thePacers car, and they they just don't
(40:00):
have the star power otherwise. Soyou're right, Boston has had a lot
of teams fall down hurt in frontof them. Whereas Dallas is going to
come in about as healthy as youcould be. Derek Lively dealing with the
neck injury and the head injury.Mexicaliba is not right yet, but he's
playing. He had a big shotat against the Wolves in Game five.
(40:20):
So they've got just about everybody thatthey normally would have, and that's where
I think Dallas is capable of winninga couple of games. That's why I'm
picking this to be a six gameseries. But you're right, Boston,
both on paper and from what we'veseen all year. They just they've had
that evidence to back them up untilsomebody proves otherwise. Sadly, the Knicks
(40:42):
don't get to do it, sothere you go, do the Wolves?
They neither do the Wolves. Sadtrombone for both of us. Right,
it was fun, well lasted.I'll take this over a twenty win season
any any day of the week.Me too, Me too, All right,
job, let's go do it forus? Who's thinking about it?
(41:02):
To good people? Goodbye, goodpeople. If you want the video version
of this year podcast, we areon YouTube where you can like, share,
subscribe to all that good stuff.If you want the audio only version
at Spreakers, Spotify, iTunes,wherever you get your podcasts. This has
been Basketball by Association and we willsee you in the NBA Finals coming up next
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