Giving Back: Student Loan Reimbursement Programs

Student loan repayment assistance is a benefit in high demand. About 45 million employees have student loan debts and collectively they owe more than $1.64 trillion. The burden of these debts causes many workers to look for employers who will help them pay off their loans. Many employers that are interested in helping employees with student loans have hesitated, mainly because of tax liabilities. However, due to the CARES Act and the 2021 stimulus package, employers can make up to $5,250 in tax-free payments to each employee with student loans. Employees greatly appreciate their employers’ loan payment assistance. Even a small donation can help them pay off their loan sooner.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Well, we're right at the halfhour. I want to get rocking unrolling
here, and I'm just going totake a minute to kind of do a
little little kitchen duties here, ifyou will. So starting off, I'm
Jeff Turner with PWA Insurance Services,the Alert Group Company, and I'm super

(00:23):
excited. This is number one ofBenefits in Brief podcast this year, and
we're super excited to have the gueststhat we have on today, mister Dennis
Cash, which I will introduce injust a second. I am the managing
partner for PWA, and as Imentioned, we're in Altu Group Company,

(00:44):
which is I heard yesterday we're upto one hundred and thirty offices nationwide and
closing in on a billion dollars inrevenue, So pretty exciting stuff for a
company that's only five years old.So the Benefits in Brief is something we
start did last year. The podcastsor something that we want to use as
a forum to educate and inspire helpemployers with relative topics that they may be

(01:11):
struggling with the looking for experts tohelp them with their running of their business.
And we're super excited to have misterCash on the podcast today. Dennis
is the director of Strategic Initiatives forBenefit ED, which is an employer assistant,

(01:33):
student loan benefit five twenty nine collegesaving program and tuition Rehambushment Program third
party administrator. So, mister Cash, welcome to the podcast from the Chile
Midwest, Lincoln, Nebraska, ifI remember right, Yep, that's correct?

(01:53):
Yeah? Is that is that whereyou were born and raised? Or
is that? Yeah? Up ina small town northeast Nebraska called why Not,
Nebraska. It's a small town abouttwo hundred and twenty folks, so
right up along the Missouri River.So grew up there and then came to
Lincoln for school, moved away fora few years, and then came back.

(02:16):
And so happy to be on theemeritus slash Benefited team. I've been
doing that for about five years now, so going on five years, and
really excited to discuss with you thebenefit ED programs right that we that are
out there and that a lot ofemployers are really looking at utilizing to attract

(02:36):
and retain some of the younger talents, right that you know, people who
are trying to figure out different waysto attract and retain talent and some of
the traditional benefits just starn't doing itright, and so a lot of employers,
especially with the Cares Act a fewa year and a half ago or
so making it tax free, it'sreally catapulted us into some really good growth.

(02:59):
Yeah. So I'm just curious priorto your your venture here, Um,
were you, uh we raised asa farmer or Yeah? So in
the small town. Um, Iwas one of the five city slickers if
you will, um our folks workin a larger town in Yankton. Um.

(03:19):
But but yeah, so uh,I really didn't grow up on a
farm anything of that nature. Butso yeah, it was me and a
couple of other kids, if wejust run around town most of the summer
and during during school. So okay, reckon have it constantly. Yeah,
you're probably probably famous. Yeah wewe we we rolled through the town pretty
well. Well, Jennis. Iappreciate you, uh spending some time with

(03:44):
us this morning. I mean,of all the topics we could start the
year off with, with everything that'sgoing on, how do you feel about
being number one? Yeah, no, it's a it's a great honor.
Actually, I'm I'm excited, LikeI say, I think I think this
year we'll have some really substantial growthin these types of programs. Right now,

(04:05):
it's a really uh you know,the adoption rate is hovering right around
eight percent for twenty twenty. Whenthe results come out from SCHERM. They
always do their their survey in themiddle of the summer. Um, we
really believe it will probably be overallthe adoption rate for these types of programs
will be in the double digits,maybe low teens, and it's just going

(04:28):
to catapult from there. Hopefully,you know, five to ten years from
now, will be as common asfour one K plans. That's kind of
where we see you know, theprojectory right because four one k plans started
out, you know, numerous yearsago, very similar. There's really no
tax advantages for them for the employeesor the employer at that point. It
was just a way for employees thatthey can start doing Peraldy Ducks. Um.

(04:49):
We see student loaner payment programs takingthat same kind of projectory right now.
There's a tax savings for the employerfor their contribution, and so we
hope it's going to continue to justclimb from there. Yeah, I did
notice on some information you had sentto me last week that that adoption rate
has doubled pretty much in the lastfive years. You mentioned eight percent.

(05:13):
It was what a little over threepercent five years ago, right, right,
yeah, exactly, and you knowwe doubled that, you know from
twenty and eighteen to twenty and nineteen. Twenty twenty was kind of a dead
year, right, everybody kind ofknows that that nothing really changed much in
twenty twenty. But but yeah,that the uh, you know, we're
we're we're hoping for some really goodgrowth, you know, doubling you know,
four to eight that that's a bigjump, right, uh in that

(05:36):
in that perspective, So, um, you know, and maybe we get
to twenty five percent adoption here inthe next few years, that would be
awesome. Yeah. Um, youknow, you mentioned the Cares Act,
and I do want to um diveinto that a little bit. But before
that, I wanted to mention someof the statistics around, um, this

(05:58):
this initiative and what really is drivingthat adoption. Right, So I noticed
that the student loan um the actualloan debt is at one point seven trillion
dollars, which is an average ofthirty two thousand and seven thirty one per
student, which I was looking atthat and thinking that was a rather low

(06:20):
number. But that's the average number. So you know, from the spectrum
of you know, I don't know, ten thousand dollars up to hundred hundreds
of thousands of dollars and student debtright right, Um, So that's that,
you know, I mean, forsome a young person that's just getting
started in in our our world andtrying to make a living, that's that's

(06:42):
pretty a pretty significant hole of startin. And I've got I have three,
um, college age grandkids right now, um, and I was thinking
about them as as I was goingthrough these statistics, and one of them
is getting ready to graduate this yearfrom Boise State, and I don't I
don't actually know what her total debtis going to be, but I am

(07:04):
going to talk to her about thisand when she's doing interviews to see if
the employers she's interervating with have youknow a program to help her and a
sister with that. Can you justspeak to world briefly to that to that
dilemma and maybe that's kind of what'sdriving this. And you'd mentioned you know,
benefits and and the standard core benefitsand you know, health insurance dental

(07:28):
for one K or not enough anymoreright right when? And I think the
biggest thing is is with the medicalcoverages that are offered now, some of
these college kids getting out of collegeand starting their new jobs, they're still
on mom and dad's plan, right, because you can be on mom and
dad's plan until twenty six I believeit is now. And so you know,

(07:48):
just coming traight out of college,you could be twenty four, twenty
five years old and you're like,well, you have a great benefit practage
here from a medical perspective, butI don't need it. What what are
you going to do for me?And so these programs really focus in on
the here and now for that particularemployee, right because it's going straight to
their straight to their student loan.It's helping them, you know, kind

(08:09):
of move on with their life,right because if they got that piece taken
care of, they can potentially goby their first car, they could potentially
get into their first home, rightbecause they know that that that student loan
debt is taken care of. Andso I think that's where people are getting
pretty creative. Especially with the labormarket the way it is, right,
It's it's hard to attract and retainsome of these younger folks, and so

(08:33):
you lay that carrot out to them, they'd rather almost have that than a
potential higher starting salary because a nowit's tax free, right, they're not
paying the taxes on it, andthey don't have to worry about it.
You know that that's probably the biggestthing the four plans. You know,
that's so far out in their mindthat it's like, hey, I got
to take care of what I haveright in front of me, you know.

(08:54):
And so we have some really coolprograms that work alongside of retirement plans
to give that employee little bit moreof a choice. And you know,
if they're not utilizing the full matchfrom the retirement plan, maybe they set
some of those dollars aside to theirstudent loans. So there's definitely some very
creative ways how we can structure theseprograms. And I think that's what's pretty

(09:16):
beneficial for employers too, because theyreally get a craft and design the program
that best fits their needs, right, So they have a lot of leeway,
and these programs are not tied toArissa, right, so they really
get to develop the program that bestfits them. So um, let's talk
about that for just a second.This is not something that's relatively it's not

(09:37):
really new, right. You mentionedthe tax free aspect of it. Maybe
we let's dive into that a littlebit and how the Cares Act ties into
that and what's going on there.Sure, sure, so, I guess
I'll start back. You know,I was fortunate enough to take advantage of
one of the very first student lowerrecaunment programs out there, and that was
true the National Guard, right,the National Guard is had that kind of

(10:00):
program, you know, twenty plusyears ago. It wasn't until about five
years ago that this really came ontothe private sector, if you will,
as a potentially emerging benefit. Andso you know, when we first started
out, these programs were considered anyemployer contribution was considered taxable income, right,
And so that was always somewhat ofa hurdle for us because employers are

(10:22):
like, well, why don't Ijust give my employees an extra hundred dollars
in their paycheck and tell them theygo pay their student loan, you know,
And my counter to that was alwaysthat, you know, I would
bet my next paycheck that that hundreddollars, that extra hundred dollars never reaches
their loan right because they're going togo utilize it for something else. And

(10:43):
with these programs, it's taking thosedollars and specifically making it to that student
loan payment so the employee doesn't eversee it. The thing this really catapultis
is when the Cares Act made studentloan repayment programs part of Section one twenty
seven, which is where the standardyou know, run of the mill tuition
reimbursement programs reside, right, andso a lot of people are getting those

(11:07):
programs confused. Tuition reimbursement student loanRepayment's what's the difference, right, Well,
Tuition reimbursement is for when employees arealready working with you and they're going
back to school and you help themwith that tuition. Student loan repayment programs
are they're already graduated college, they'rebringing you know, they already bring in
their degree with them, but nowthey have to pay back those student loans.

(11:28):
And so the student loan payment programsreally started, you know, take
a hold when that became tax free, just like tuition reimbursement programs, and
it is it is technically supposed tosunset. That tax free status of five
thousand and two hundred and fifty dollarsper year per employee is supposed to sunset
at the end of twenty twenty five. However, they're already talking about potentially

(11:50):
extending that or making it a permanentpart of the tax code like tuition reimbursement
programs. And there's also talk aboutpotentially raising that limit five thousand in two
hundred and fifty, right, kindof putting it on an escalator like other
potential benefits are. Because you know, when that fifty two fifty was established,
that was almost twenty years ago,right. If you think of college

(12:13):
tuition twenty years ago, fifty twofifty was a lot of dollars, right,
it could it could cover a yearpotentially. Well, now it's not
even close. And so they knowthat if student loan repayment programs, you
know, stay a part of Sectionone twenty seven, they need to bump
that level up. Yeah, Sotwenty twenty five is the kind of the

(12:35):
year we're kind of watching and observing, and I think it would make sense
that they would extend that raise thefifty two fifty. I was thinking the
same thing fifty two fifty doesn't seemlike a lot, although I mean I
was looking at one of the slidesyou sent over to me the impact that's
to the employer and the employee.So for every dollar that the employer contributes

(12:58):
through a program of this nature,through benefit AD can return a dollar sixty
six to employees. That's pretty significantwhen you think about it. And I
was looking at some of the otherstatistics on this particular chart in terms of
the payoff the time of the loan. So if I have a fifteen year
loan, M just it looks likeno benefit, you know, I'm player,

(13:22):
no, no contribution there. Butif they just drop in one hundred
bucks M it reduces that loan downto ten years, right, and then
and so forth. I mean,that's that's the impact, right, that's
the benefit to the employee. That'spretty significant. I would imagine that would
be well received. So what's what'sthe I mean, I'm kind of a

(13:46):
talk touched a little bit on whatthe employer advantages in terms of hiring and
retention, etc. Is there anythingelse that you know you can speak of,
you know, I mean it's taxfree, now, I mean,
why wouldn't Why wouldn't every employer.A. Yeah, And I think the
biggest thing is just the you know, getting the message out to employers and

(14:07):
you know, letting him know thatthis does exist, because you know,
it's it's taking a while for youknow, the marketplace to accept these new
benefits. Right. We're all fourto five years old, so you know,
there's a lot of companies that haven'teven really heard about it, right,
And so I think that's the biggestthing, is just getting the message
out. The other pieces, thelarger organizations, and some of those are

(14:33):
starting to come around, you know, when we first talked to him,
say two years ago, right,this is a new concept. It is
additional dollars and the benefit bucket,if you will. And so they they've
got to get a board approval,they've got to they got a budget for
this. And I think that's wherewhen the larger companies, it takes them
a little bit longer to to beable to roll out a program like this.

(14:54):
A lot of our existing clients wereon the smaller side. They were
able to you know, be alittle bit or nimble if you will.
Right, you have a size ofabout one hundred folks or one hundred and
fifty folks, eligible employees. Youknow, that company is probably a little
bit more flexible and can can moveeasier than say a company with three to
four thousand right there. It takesa little bit longer for them to create,

(15:18):
create the urgency around it and thebenefit and the you know, get
everybody on board if you will too, because it is going to be an
additional uh, you know, expense, It truly is, but it's just
like any other benefit that you're puttingin. It's going to cost cost you
a little bit more, but youhope to reduce your turnover amount. You
know, you hope to reduce youronboarding and recruiting costs because you're not having

(15:39):
to turn over people as much.So right, Yeah, that kind of
leads me into the next question,is you know this is something that hasn't
necessarily um, it's not relatively new. I mean there's aspects of that are
and players have been someone players havebeen doing this for a while, adopted

(16:00):
it and are doing it on theirown. So I noticed you, you
know, benefit ed maybe just talka little about benefit. How long you've
been in business, how long you'vebeen doing what you're doing, what you
know are some of the solutions youoffer, and why would I as an
employer want to use benefit ed ratherthan doing it internally? That makes sense?
Sure? Sure? So benefit edwas essentially created back in two thousand

(16:23):
and sixteen in the Nell Met InnovationHub, and noll net is the largest
student loan service around the planet.They reside here in Lincoln, Nebraska along
with Emeritus, who I work for. And in two thousand and seventeen,
nell Net came to Emeritus and said, hey, you know what we know
you work with a lot of differentgroups, right, a lot of different

(16:45):
employer groups. How can we getin? You know, we have this
great idea as far as student loanrepayment as a benefit. How do we
get into employers? And so itwas essentially, hey, there's going to
be a joint venture form right.It went pretty quick. Nell that had
all the plunging and makes and we'reable to make sure that the dollars from
the employer are getting to the employeestudent loan. But the Emeritus team was

(17:07):
going to be more of the distribution, right and getting that word spread in
working with employer groups and producers.And so that's that's kind of how it
all started. April of twenty andseventeen, we kind of unleash the unleashed
the message, right. The benefitedis now created and we're offering these programs.
In the very beginning, we justhad just a straight contribution program,

(17:30):
and this is where the employer designatesa certain dollar amount to go to an
employee student loan. We would thenhave the employee sign up with us,
we get their loan information, andso now we're tracking down those loans and
making those payments on the employer's behalf. If the employee, if the employer
wants to try to do this internallyon their own, they're going to have
to chase down that employee's loan informationthat if the loan gets bought and sold,

(17:53):
they're going to continually have to haveto make different, different payments,
and so there's a lot of administrationwork that has to be done for the
or you know, in that HRdepartment that they're not going to want to
do on an ongoing basis. Especiallyif one employee has three different loans,
they got to make three different loanpayments. It gets to be a little
bit much. With the benefit edsolution, the employer just sends benefit at

(18:15):
all those dollars right for those folksthat have signed up, and then we
make those payments for them. Andso I would say that's probably the biggest
thing. We have expanded into havinga matching program as well, so the
employee now has to put in somedollars to get the employer's dollars right.
So you know, some employers say, hey, I want to make sure

(18:36):
my employees have some skin in thegame, okay, And so that's kind
of where that's at. A lotof our employer groups are really liking the
tiered approach to some of these programs, right to maybe start out everybody at
fifty dollars for the first year forthese programs, and then the next year,
if that person is still with you, now you're going to give them
one hundred dollars, and then thethird year one hundred and fifty. So

(18:57):
or it gets more and more lucrativethe longer that person stays, and that
that's really holds on from the retentionperspective, that's been that's been pretty popular
lately. In two thousand and eighteen, Slash Yeah. Two thousand and eighteen,
we also came out with a productcalled what we call Employee Choice and

(19:18):
this is where it runs a longside of a retirement plan. It doesn't
change the retirement plan at all,but it just looks at those folks that
aren't contributing the full amount to getthe full match. And a lot of
times we found it's the younger populationthat are not contributing to the full amount
to get the full match because they'refocused on their student loan and so if
they make a separate peril deduction tobenefit AD, then we we utilize those

(19:42):
leftover dollars, if you will,that had been left on the table.
So that's kind of a unique program, a little bit more of administrative work
for the employer. However, itis a great solution too because in essence
it's kind of a budget neutral program, right because that retirement plan matching formula
creates a bucket of money, butnot everybody utilizes that full amount. Yeah,

(20:07):
I didn't notice that as one ofyour benefit solutions. For one case
student loan match employee choice, we'vegot it looks like quite a few here
the employer assistant student loan and collegesavings to WHI shouldn't reimbursement student loan refinance.
That was interesting talk about that fora second, what that is.
Yeah, so this is where youknow, this is kind of comes along

(20:30):
with any of our repayment solutions asas an option or solution for employees if
they want to look at refinancing someof their loans are consolidating their loans.
We have a great connection with thenell Net bank out in Utah. They
just charted a new bank out there, and so that's where who we use
to help employees refinance. Also onthe student loan counseling, obviously, nell

(20:51):
Net being the largest student loan serviceprovider, we have a lot of knowledge
and expertise around student loans just ingeneral, and so that's who we utilize
for our knowledge and expertise on thatpiece of it as well. Yeah,
so there's student loan counseling. Theyhave somebody they can talk to and about,
you know, their situation and yeget some input. Yep, they

(21:11):
can get some input on that.And that can be a via chat,
just an in you know, inperson call if you will, or just
email back and forth as well.So they have a lot of different ways
to reach out to us. MI noticed on the admin side, there's
some pretty cool tool resources. Youhave a dashboard. Um, maybe let's

(21:33):
let's talk a little bit about someof the extra value added value that you
guys are bringing the table other thanjust you know, um moving dollars.
Yeah. So, so the dashboardis a really neat uh I guess,
basically where the employee goes for everything, all benefited benefits if you will.
So they're going to see previous paymentsthat the employer has made, that it

(21:56):
gives them quick access to the refinancingpiece, just our all of our resources
right different different calculators that we haveonline for them to utilize. And then
it's also a quick way to getinto our into our counselors to schedule a
meeting. It's also a great placeto where our tuition reimbursement program is housed.

(22:18):
If the employer has offered that,it's a quick way for the employee
say, yep, I want togo back to school, I want to
take some classes. They can justapply right there through that dashboard. And
so that tuition reimbursement that we stoodup at the beginning of last year already,
we really thought that was beneficial becausea lot of employers, you know,
they want to say, hey,can you just take care of all
of my Section one twenty seven benefits, and so that was that was a

(22:41):
pretty cool ad for us to doat the end of at the beginning of
last year. To be able todo that right, we can do tuition
reimbursement programs and student loanerpayment programs.And the biggest reason is that five thousand
and two hundred and fifty dollars thatis tax free. That is a combination
of both programs combined. So ifwe have if you have one vendor is

(23:02):
managing both of those, you knowwhen that employee is hit that limit and
be able to start taxing them onit if they go above and beyond it,
because you could let's say you getthree thousand dollars with a student loaner
payment program two and two hundred andfifty dollars of tuition reimbursement will now anything
above and beyond that becomes taxable.And if you have one one vendor managing
both, you'll be able to seethat we'll be able to keep track of

(23:23):
that for them. Yeah, that'syeah, I can see the value in
that you'd mentioned when we are preppingfor this call that these dollars are not
exclusive. Just to the employee studentslash student themselves right there. I think
you had mentioned that other family memberssomehow could benefit from this. Yeah,

(23:48):
So so if the employer would liketo, you know, if they want
to roll this program out and keepit fair for everyone. Right, there's
those folks that have student loans aregoing to take advantage of that student loan
contribution. Right. But if yousay, I don't have student loans,
what are you going to do forme as an employee? You know,
the employer can offer contributions to Afive twenty nine, and that five twenty
nine is a college savings plan thatgrows tax free as long as you use

(24:11):
it for education expenses. Right,so that's K through twelve, right,
that tuition or then just room andboard, tuition, books, fees,
anything from a college perspective as well. So that's a way to keep it
fair and have it affect everyone.Now, those employer contributions to A five
to twenty nine are still considered taxable. It's only the student loan contributions that

(24:36):
are tax free. The other piecethat you can do as well is like
a parent plus loan or co signednote. As long as it's a student
loan, we can still make paymentson those if the employer chooses to offer
those as options, but they aregoing to be taxable, just like it
was before the care Is Act.It's going to be a taxable benefit,
but yet still a benefit none thesame, right, because it's going towards

(24:57):
a loan that it's negatively affecting yourlife essentially, right. Yeah, Yeah,
as you were talking about that,I was seeking about a friend that
has three daughters that he's put throughprivate school all the way from elementary to
high school, etc. And allthe money that has spent it in providing
an education to his children's a lotof money. A lot of money.

(25:19):
Must love his love his girls roomat right. Yeah. When we first
were approached by one of our clientson this topic, you know, as
I mentioned at the top of thepad podcast, you know, we're a
very large organization, and so Isent out a message to my peers asking

(25:42):
them if they knew of anything inthis you know, this this sector,
and I got zero, which reallysurprised me. I mean, I'm part
of a pretty sophisticated professional group thatyou know, are dealing with employers on

(26:02):
a very large scale, and forthat communication coming back here. I was
totally surprised by that, absolutely surprised. Yeah, And I think that's the
biggest thing, right is, asI mentioned earlier, that it's just getting
the message out that these programs areavailable and trying to cast a really broad
net to where then those folks thatare interested can start coming back to us

(26:23):
and saying, well, what whatwhat are these programs all about? Right?
And I think that's where we reallygot to do a better job just
communicating that and getting the message outthat hey, these programs are really great.
People are really starting to utilize themfor retention and attraction tools, you
know, and being able to offersomething different unique. Right, you go
to these job fairs or whatever.You know, everybody's out in the same

(26:45):
thing. But if you can say, hey, I got something different over
here, come look at us,it's definitely definitely a differentiator at this point.
Sure, So if I'm an employer, I'm interested in looking at this,
what kind of information do I needto provide um? And that's going
to be channeled through us, butright, or in what you need to

(27:07):
look at this for an employer?Yeah, So, so really all we
need is the eligible population right tocreate a proposal and the company's name.
That's at the bare minimum. Now, if we have the turnover percentage and
the onboarding costs for that employer group, we can add that into our proposal
and it's it's more customized, rightas far as what their their numbers are

(27:29):
from a return on investment. Butreally we don't need a lot of information
to start the conversation, right,the admin costs associated I've looked at the
numbers and I feel they're they're reasonable. I mean, they're right in line
with other similar TPA services you know, FSA, HR, A, HSA,
whatever. Um, right, it'sthe same line, so it's not

(27:52):
it's not super expensive. Um.Are those those administrative costs or the employer
or those tax deductible. Yeah,it'd be just like a normal business expense.
So they can they can they candeduct that for sure. Yep.
Yeah, Okay, I assume that, but I wanted to ask that.
So, so you mentioned the intellectcan customize this as an employer, so
that's pretty cool. Um. Yeah. Yeah. With with the programs that

(28:17):
tied to a RISSA, they reallydo have a ton of flexibility on how
they want to design the program andhow much dollars they want to give to
different departments. You know, becauseyou can be selective in that regard.
You can tier the programs. Youcan put lifetime limits on the program too,
if you want to limit your overallliability. Okay, So just just
a ton of flexibility and how youdesign your program. And then sure you

(28:37):
design your program, you're not lockedinto that forever, right If you want
to change something within nine months orsomething of that nature, we can definitely
do that for you. That's prettycool because you mentioned Arrissa at the top
of the podcasts and you know,just kind of reminding folks, you know,
there are are discrimination um aspects toa RISSA that you have to follow

(28:59):
in a traditional like four oh oneK plan, etc. In terms of
discriminating. So that is that kindof what you're talking about. There's since
flexibility, correct, Yeah, sinceit's it's since it's not governed by a
RISSA, there's a lot more flexibility, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's
that's huge yea. Yeah, becausesome of the large organizations, probably our
largest client, you know, theyhave I believe like eighty some thousand employees,

(29:22):
right, Well, so they didn'tmake everybody eligible. It was a
hospital system, and they that theirmain focus was on hands on first care,
and so they rolled out a programjust for that group. You know,
so that was probably that was youknow, five to six thousand employees
instead of all eighty thousand, right, and then since then they've just added
more and more departments or more andmore groups to that and they've expanded their

(29:45):
program. Um, but you canstart out small, I guess that's kind
of the message there. You canstart out small with a program and then
add add where you see fit.Yeah. Yeah, um, I really
appreciate your time. We're we're atthe time of the hour right now.
I'm sure we could spend a lotmore time talking about this. What would

(30:06):
you say that I mean, ifwe covered all the kind of the frequently
asked questions, there anything that I'mmissing that you wanted to make sure it
was, you know, addressed today? Yeah, I guess the only thing
that we haven't touched on as faras the when you can roll these programs
out right. You do not haveto do it during open enrollment, right.
You can roll this out at anytime, and I would say the
majority of our clients do it offcycle if you will, just because it

(30:30):
is a new program. They wantto make a big splash. They want
to make sure everybody is excited aboutthe program, and when it's off cycle,
it won't get lost in the sauce, I like to say, right,
because with open enrollment there's a lotof things being being thrown at employees,
and so if this can be separatedout by itself, all the better,
right, because you're going to getall the attention that it needs and

(30:52):
deserves, right because it is sucha new program. Yeah, awesome.
I really appreciate your time, Dennis. Yeah, thank you, thank you
so much for coming on today.And how does it you can tell everybody
you are number one? Right?Awesome? I love it. I love
it. I really do appreciate theopportunity and look forward to working with you

(31:14):
on future opportunities. Right right,all right, my friend, I hope
you get out to San Francisco sometimesoon and get out of that cold weather.
Yeah, no kidding, no kidding, All right, you take care
of man, all right, Byebye, Thank you, you bet.