Activism: Are We Ready For This Moment? Featuring Charlene Carruthers

Have you lost your voice?

On the sixth episode of Beyond Voting, we dive deep with Charlene Carruthers, community organizer, writer, filmmaker, and Black Studies PhD candidate. Charlene is the founding national director of BYP 100, a Chicago -based social justice organization led by Black youth activists. Her work spans more than 20 years of community organizing across racial, gender,and economic justice movements. She is also the author of the 2018 bestselling book, Unapologetic: a Black, queer, and feminist mandate for radical movements. It provides a vision and a framework for young activists to build power, create a more radical and intersectional movement, and grow into the next generation of leaders and visionaries.

We spoke with Charlene today to help us understand what challenges activists face as part of today’s liberation struggles, how we find and build community, how we care for ourselves and others doing the work, and most importantly, how liberation is a global movement that is  interconnected with the struggles of oppressed peoples around the world.

So tell us, how will you use your voice to fight for change?  What action will you take to be a part of the change you want to see? Tell us on IG @arcus.center or drop it in your 5 star review of the show.  And please visit us at arcuscenter.kzoo.edu

Follow Charlene Carruthers :

Twitter: @CharleneCAC

IG:@CharleneCarruthers 

Website: charlenecarruthers.com 

Check out Charlene Carruther’s  book, Unapologetic: a Black, Queer, and Feminist Mandate for Radical Movements 

Host/Writer: Emily Williams 
Executive Producer: Keisha “TK” Dutes 
Lead Producer/Writer: Kristen Bennett 
Sound Designer & Engineer: Manny Faces
Marketing: Faybeo’n Mickens
Special thanks to The Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership team: Quinton, Winter, Crimson, Tamara, and Kerria, 
Additional music provided by Motion Array.

Beyond Voting is a production of Philo’s Future Media. 

Episode Transcript

Emily Williams (01:00):
Hi, everyone. We're so glad to have you back.
Thanks for joining us. Over thecourse of this season, we focus
on lots of topics many believeare existential threats to our
democracy, like the globalspread of fascism and the
blueprint for it to take hold inthe US, project 2025, the dire
state of the federal courts, andthe role they play in protecting

(01:22):
our rights and upholding theconstitution, how those who have
historically put their faith inelectoral politics see their
political allies failing them inabandoning the principles they
hold dear, and the deliberatestifling of third parties and
other large political movementsby those same allies. To look
around and see the state of theworld, the state of our

(01:44):
politics, and the state of ourmovements, one would leave with
a pretty grim prognosis.
Our democracy is in criticalcondition, but that doesn't mean
our condition has to beterminal. As I mentioned last
week, after my conversation withdoctor Nicole Wen, we have to
remember that we're seeing muchof this backlash because our

(02:04):
efforts and movements haveactually worked and are still
working. We should also takethat as evidence that we can
build the world we want to see.But how do we actually come
together in this critical momentto make our voices heard? How
exactly does one take that firststep into organizing?
And how do we take the vision ofour political imagination and

(02:28):
turn that into substantivechange? I'm Emily Williams,
executive director of the ArcusCenter For Social Justice

(02:48):
Leadership at Kalamazoo College.This is Beyond Voting. We
started this show for peoplelike you and me, people who care
about making a difference in theworld, people who want to share
in redesigning the democracy wedeserve outside of the typical
political binary. This podcastis rooted in our conviction that

(03:11):
democracy requires moreparticipation than just voting.
It's up to all of us to takeaction if we wanna see real
change. We'll featureconversations with leaders,
activists, and educatorsdiscussing the state of our
country's institutions, ongoingsystems of oppression, and most
importantly, how we, the people,can take critical actions in

(03:34):
pursuit of true equity andjustice. Typically, I end each
show with a call to action,imploring you, the listener, to
get motivated, go to work inyour communities, and organize
to help shape the better worldwe all deserve. But for the last
episode of this season, I wannaswitch things up a bit. And

(03:54):
don't worry, we'll be back in 2weeks for a post election
episode with a special guestthat you won't wanna miss.
In mainstream media and in ourconversations with friends and
family, there's a lot of talkabout the challenges that we
face as a country or thechallenges that a specific
candidate faces in a tough raceagainst an opponent whose values
scare us or don't representours. But there's rarely talk at

(04:19):
all about working outsideelectoral politics to affect
change in our day to day lives.Even the way most of us think
about movement work, organizingwith like minded people to push
our elected officials or ourcommunities working together to
help meet our immediate needs isusually framed as something
happening under extraordinarycircumstances. Grave injustices

(04:41):
being addressed by bold andpowerful leaders seemingly built
for the moment. It's the stuffof compelling documentaries and
biopics, but it's rarelypresented to us in a way that
invites us to imagine ourselvesin those roles as fully engaged
and active players in thestruggle.
As Rosa Clemente said when wespoke with her, if we're waiting

(05:04):
for a savior, a quote, unquote,great hero of history to come
along and save us from thismoment, we'll be waiting
forever. The secret is only wecan save ourselves. Our mission
at the Arcus Center For SocialJustice Leadership is to develop
and sustain leaders in humanrights and social justice. And I

(05:24):
think it's crucial to rememberthat there are already people
out here creating real change.People who are standing for
social justice in their personallives and in their professional
lives day after day.
But we shouldn't expect them togo it alone. We need more well
informed critical thinkers, likethe people we interviewed this
season who sparked my curiosityand made me so much smarter

(05:47):
during our conversations. Weneed more folks who are on the
front lines of motivating peopleand laying out bold strategies
and radical pathways to actuallycreate a new society. We need
more folks, to paraphrase AngelaDavis, to act as if it were
possible to radically transformthe world and to do that all the

(06:08):
time. We need more activists.
Frankly, we need you. And that'swhy I'm so excited for you to
hear from this week's guest,activist, organizer, and author,
the indomitable CharleneCarruthers. Her work spans more
than 20 years of communityorganizing across racial,
gender, and economic justicemovements. Charlene is the

(06:31):
founding national director ofBYP 100, a Chicago based social
justice organization led byblack youth activists. She's
also the author of the 2018 bestselling book, Unapologetic, a
Black queer and feminist mandatefor radical movements, which
provided a vision and aframework for young activists to
build power, create more radicaland intersectional movements,

(06:55):
and grow into the nextgeneration of leaders and
visionaries.
I wanted to talk to Charlenetoday because I knew she would
help us understand whatchallenges activists and those
who aren't yet activists face asa part of today's liberation
struggles, how we find and buildcommunity, how we care for
ourselves and others doing thework, and most importantly, how

(07:16):
liberation is a global movementthat is interconnected with the
struggles of oppressed peoplesaround the world. Charlene,
welcome to Beyond Voting. We'reso happy to have you. So this
podcast is called Beyond Votingbecause we feel it's important
to understand that democracyrequires more participation than

(07:40):
just voting. It's up to all ofus to take action if we wanna
see real change.
So tell us, how does someone whowants to be an activist, how do
they get started?

Charlene Carruthers (07:53):
So first, thanks so much again for having
me join this conversation today.It's always timely to talk about
how we can get involved or howwe are involved in affecting,
changing, and hopefullytransforming the world that we
live in into a place that weactually deserve. And for people

(08:15):
who are interested in becomingan activist or even a community
organizer, one of the firstthings that folks can do is to
talk to other people, like, tobe in community with other
people and to be curious and askquestions both for themselves
and then also with the otherpeople. Because I think from a

(08:36):
place of curiosity, we canactually figure out more about
what other people areexperiencing, but it puts us in
a position to better understandwhat we're experiencing and to
break the isolation. So, yes, ifyou're interested in being an
activist, know what you careabout, know what makes you
upset, know what you wannachange.

(08:57):
As important as knowing that isunderstanding how it connects to
other people. And so one thingthat we do as community
organizers and as activists iswe have these things called
relational meetings or one toone. Everyone calls it something
different depending on whoyou're talking to. And the point
of those meetings, they're anintentional meeting to build

(09:18):
what is often called a publicrelationship with another
person, where you're able toidentify or to discern who they
are, what they care about, whatvalues you share, and what
opportunities might exist foryou to work together. And in so
many ways, it is important forus to be in community and in
relationship with other peoplewho also want to see something

(09:42):
different happen and who shareour values.
If folks are interested inactivism that is about
transforming our world into aplace that we actually deserve,
then that actually requires usto take up values that are
radical and perhaps evenrevolutionary, that go beyond
the boundaries of reform, gobeyond the boundaries of only a

(10:03):
few people receiving somethingbetter or is just getting
incremental changes to actuallysaying, we deserve nothing short
of transformation in order tolive with our full dignity.

Emily Williams (10:14):
100%. And I'm so glad that you started with that.
And I think that building therelationships, talking to other
people in real life, Yep.Particularly for our younger
generations is really difficult.

Charlene Carruthers (10:27):
Yeah.

Emily Williams (10:27):
Right? I think they're so accustomed to
thinking about what activism isbased on what they see on social
media, which doesn't actuallyrequire relationship building in
real life. Right? But it'sreally difficult if not
impossible to create the kind oftransformation of the world that
we deserve, right, withoutrelationships and without
talking to people in real life.And so that's certainly an

(10:50):
additional call to action foryoung people who wanna be
activists to build up theirrelational skills, their people
skills.
Right? Like, that's soimportant.

Charlene Carruthers (10:58):
For sure. And not just with people who
agree with you or people who,like, appear to be just like
you. I'm not saying you go outand talk to a, like, a self
avowed fascist or supportive ofthe KKK or is a deep, deep
Zionist. That's not what I'msaying. I'm talking about
talking to people who are like,I'm trying to figure out what's

(11:18):
going on in the world.
I actually think people shouldhave access to education. I
think people should have goodfood to eat. But I don't
actually know how that happens,or maybe I don't actually
understand why more policingdoesn't keep us safe. It's not
that the person believes thatpolice are the only way, but
they don't know any other way.That's the only example that's

(11:38):
been given to them, the onlypossibility that's been given to
them.
I'm interested in talking tothose folks, and more often than
not, those are the folks who areliving in our communities,
people who are in our families,people who attend our various
places of worship, our gyms, ourschools, all of that. So I'm not
talking about the far rightpeople trying to convince them.

(11:59):
I'm talking about the people whoeven say that they're Democrats.

Emily Williams (12:02):
Yeah.

Charlene Carruthers (12:02):
People who say that they're liberals, who
say that they're progressives.And some of those people could
very well be homophobic. Yep.Some of those people could be
transphobic. Some of thosepeople could be ableist.
And nobody is moved if they'reonly allowed to be introduced to
or confronted with their ownviews. And so there's this
sticky place that if you'regonna set out to be an organizer

(12:23):
or be set out to be an activist,you also have to make a
commitment to working withpeople who don't completely
agree with you on everything.

Emily Williams (12:30):
And that's the work of change. Right. So now,
Charlene, tell me this becausethis is a word that has gotten
co opted recently, this termradical. Mhmm. So just tell us
what do you mean when you sayradical?

Charlene Carruthers (12:44):
When I say radical, I mean both the idea
and the practice are recognizingwhat are the root causes of the
problems and the issues that weare facing or we are
experiencing and are taking uppractices that do not reinforce
the very things that put us inthis position in the first

(13:05):
place. And so an example ofthat, I'll talk about abortion.
So there's one way to understandabortion through a reproductive
rights framework that saysabortion is a I'm being very
intentional about my language.

Emily Williams (13:18):
Yeah.

Charlene Carruthers (13:18):
A decision between a woman and her doctor.
Mhmm. It's a issue of privacy.And then there's another way to
understand abortion as oneparticular practice of health
care or one particular practiceof bodily autonomy that is a
part of a broader universe ofwhat it means to have access to

(13:41):
reproductive justice and sayingthat people should be able to
determine when and if they wantto parent, particularly carrying
a pregnancy. And when they dodecide to carry a pregnancy or
they do decide to become aparent, they can do so without
fear or without violence fromthe state or other actors,

(14:03):
frankly.

Emily Williams (14:03):
Right.

Charlene Carruthers (14:04):
And so that is a more radical idea. It's a
more radical idea to say,actually, in addition to me
fighting for access to abortioncare, I'm also gonna fight for
lunch and breakfast for allchildren in schools. Mhmm. I am
going to fight to not havepolicing in schools, but to have
librarians and nurses or othercounselors, things of that

(14:27):
nature. So I'm naming both theidea and the practice that is
more radical.
And what is not as radical,which is more liberal and in
some ways oftentimes built asprogressive as well, is saying,
we just want everybody to have aright to abortion without
addressing how expensive it is,how far people have to travel.
And in addition to cisgenderwomen needing access to

(14:51):
abortion, we're also talkingabout children.

Emily Williams (14:53):
Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers (14:54):
Teenagers, non binary people, trans men,
many different people who needaccess to abortion care as well.
But if we only stop there andsay we should just have a right
and it should be a decisionbetween a woman and her doctor,
knowing good and well that wedon't even have access to
affordable or free health carein this country, that it's not a

(15:15):
real thing to just wish and hopeor say that we should have this
right. But let's get moreradical and talk about how
everybody should have access tothis thing. And as much as we
have 1,000,000,000 to spend onweapons to ferment both
genocides and occupations acrossthe world, we have money to
spend on those things. We don'thave money to spend so people

(15:38):
can have access to the fulluniverse of reproductive justice
and reproductive care.
So that's what I mean when I sayradical. It's like really
getting at how capitalism,patriarchy, anti blackness,
white supremacy, ableism,transphobia, homophobia, all
undergird our lack of access tosomething as clear as abortion

(15:59):
care and that if we're gonnaaddress it, we have to see it as
a part of a broader universe ofthings that we can address.

Emily Williams (16:07):
Right. Because I think that that really
encapsulates what it means tohave a radical left view of
politics and some of the mainsocial justice issues that we're
confronting right now. So,Charlene, can you help us make
sense of the moment that we'rein right now? What's at stake
for us here in the US but alsoglobally if we continue to see

(16:28):
fascists taking office?

Charlene Carruthers (16:30):
At best, I can take a slice out of what is
happening right now and try toexplain at least what I'm seeing
as a part of the bigger picturehere. So I live in Atlanta right
now, and Andre Dickens is themayor. And he, on paper and in
rhetoric, is a Democrat. And hemoves like a fascist. And what
do I mean by that?

(16:52):
In the past year, Atlantaorganizers, as a part of a much
barter movement to stop thebuilding of a COP City in the
Waianae Forest here, undertook areferendum campaign, which
essentially meant that theygathered over a 100000
signatures from registeredvoters in Atlanta calling for a

(17:13):
referendum so that people whoare voters in Atlanta can decide
whether or not COP City would bebuilt. The petition wasn't to
say it shouldn't be built, itshould be built. It was so that
people could decide. Let thepeople decide. Mayor Andre
Dickens has completely shut itdown.
He has put every obstacle in theway possible from making that

(17:35):
happen. Democracy is thepractice of everyday people who
are considered to be citizensbeing able to play a role in the
governance of their lives andthe operations of the
communities, the cities, thetowns, the municipalities, the
states, the nations that theylive in. And if over a 100,000

(17:55):
of them say they wanna vote forsomething and the mayor says no,
that is a fascist act. Yep. Andhe is a Democrat.

Emily Williams (18:03):
Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers (18:04):
So what we are seeing happening, that is
one example of what we areseeing is people behaving as
fascists under the umbrellas ofthe Democratic and the
Republican parties. And so thatis a part of a global dynamic in
which people will use certainlabels or use their platforms,

(18:25):
use their parties to enactpolicies that silence everyday
people.

Emily Williams (18:30):
Right.

Charlene Carruthers (18:31):
And we see that from Atlanta to Texas,
where people are being purgedonce again from the voter rolls.
We see that in Haiti. We seethat in Gaza. We see that in
Kenya, where their people aresaying no to what their
government is doing, includingtheir imperial incursion in
Haiti. We see that, happening inSudan, where you have 2 opposing

(18:56):
factions terrorizing or,oppressing, dominating the
Sudanese people.
And so my hope is, like, giventhat example of Atlanta, that's
just one example of what ishappening globally. And that is
within the context of massiveclimate catastrophes and also,

(19:17):
fractured food systems globallyas well. At the same time, and
this is not to be, like, allhopey changey, but it is to name
that there are movements

Emily Williams (19:26):
Yep. Yep.

Charlene Carruthers (19:27):
In opposition. And not just in
opposition to fascism, butmovements that exist to actually
build something that is better.And we don't have enough power
yet. Like, we don't have enoughpower in the US to stop our
country from sending1,000,000,000 of dollars and
approving of $18,000,000,000weapons package to the country
found in 1948 known as Israel.

Emily Williams (19:48):
And I think that that's like a really important
point because going back to COPCity, that was really
sophisticated organizing andreally strong organizing to get
that petition and to have theongoing demonstrations. And
still this mayor didn't listento what the people wanted. And I
think the same is true with andI like the way that you put it,
the country that was founded in1948. Mhmm. The majority of

(20:10):
Americans don't want US supportfor what's happening in Gaza
right now.
No. But yet it's stillhappening. Yep. And so this then
makes me wonder, do weunderstand the centers of power
correctly right now as activistsor burgeoning ones? And then are
we focused on the right things?

(20:30):
Do we put too much emphasis onelectoral wins, especially
presidential elections? Do youthink that there's anything
that's distracting us right now?

Charlene Carruthers (20:40):
That's a hard question to answer because
I'm not one who believes that weshould opt out of the electoral
process. I don't think we canafford to opt out. I think that
due to many forces, includingphilanthropy and mainstream
media, the presidential electiondoes receive an outsized amount
of attention as opposed to,like, city councils, school

(21:04):
board elections unless you're inChicago, or even governor,
gubernatorial races. They justdon't receive nearly as much
attention. And I do think that'sby design because those people
are much closer Right.
To our everyday lives and holddisproportionate amounts of
power. And that if we actuallylive in what people believe

(21:24):
could be a democracy or whatdemocracy could look like, then
that wouldn't be the case. Andeven the amount of money I saw a
figure that the Kamala Harriscampaign has raised $500,000,000
First of all, who's getting thatmoney? Media outlets,
consultants, and I'm sure someportion of it is going to a
field operation, but a lot ofmoney is gonna go towards

(21:46):
advertising. Who wins with that?
The political consultancy classstands to, like, gain a lot from
her raising 500 that doesn't gointo her pocket.

Emily Williams (21:57):
Mhmm. $500,000,000

Charlene Carruthers (22:01):
and just what we could do with that kind
of money is just wild to me.

Emily Williams (22:06):
I like what you're bringing up because it
also reminds us that we need tochange our political systems,
right? The point that you justraised makes me think about
getting money out of politics.And then also, we could think
about abolition in this context.A lot of people bring up
revolution. You know, I've heardpeople saying, like, we can't
even participate in thiselection.
We have to, like, get rid of thesystem altogether. So do you

(22:29):
think that those on the leftsometimes romanticize
revolution? And how, if at all,is that different from what
activists are actually workingfor?

Charlene Carruthers (22:43):
I've been deep in reading stuff on settler
colonialism because that's,like, the big part of my
research. And for better or forworse, I just read the piece by
Patrick Wolfe that is oftentimesquoted and is, like, defining
settler colonialism as astructure and not as an event.
So it makes me think, for betteror for worse, how revolution is

(23:04):
it cannot be understood as anevent. It is if not a structure,
it's a process. Even if you lookat everything from the Haitian
Revolution, it wasn't just17/91.
Like, we're at least until 18/04and then some. These are years
that we're talking about. TheCuban Revolution, years that we
are talking about. I rarely hearpeople in the U. S.

(23:27):
Frame the ending of apartheid inSouth Africa as a revolution
because there's no singularmoment. Like, when Mandela is
elected, that wasn't the momentthat apartheid fell in South
Africa. But one shouldabsolutely mark as a
revolutionary era orrevolutionary period in South
Africa. And so, absolutely, Ibelieve we fall into the trap of

(23:48):
romanticizing revolution asthough it is an event when it is
not this, like, sole moment inwhich we topple the dictator or
we topple the president. We canlook to Egypt, we can look to
Sudan.
Like, these are ongoing things.And if we better understood a
revolution, as we understandabolition as a protracted
struggle Mhmm. We understandthat as, like, not a single

(24:11):
moment, I think we get ourselvesin a much better position to
even understand, like, how GraceLee Boggs talked about
revolution or how she talkedabout transformation. We have to
transform in ourselves. We haveto have revolutions within
ourselves.
And not as an individualisticpractice, but how long does it
take for me to change apractice? Sometimes, like, if

(24:32):
it's forced, boom, I have to doit immediately. Which one could
liken to, like, a massive, be itarmed or physical moment in
which dictators or leadership istoppled. And even then, even if
I, like, stop a behavior thatI've had to because maybe I got
a health diagnosis, like, I haveto stop doing this thing,

(24:53):
There's still work that I haveto do to recover Right. After
I've stopped doing thatparticular behavior Mhmm.
Or stop taking that particularset of actions. So even if
there's a revolutionary moment,a revolutionary event, there is
so much work to be done afterthat particular event in order
to, like, actually create thekind of life, the kind of world

(25:14):
that we wanna live in. And sothat's what I mean when I say
the importance of personaltransformation. It is not for
the sake of understanding we dothis person by person, but
really in order to betterunderstand what it takes to
revolutionize or transformanything is these critical
moments and also the work thatcomes before and after those

(25:36):
critical moments.

Emily Williams (25:37):
I think so many young people in particular, and
that's who we work with at theArcus Center For Social Justice
Leadership primarily, they'rewaiting for that one
revolutionary event. And justbecause we wanna focus on
revolution doesn't mean that wedon't do the work. Right? We
still have to do this work tobring about change. Right.
And so now I'm really curiouswhat you're gonna say about this

(25:58):
next question because so manypeople are gonna celebrate
Kamala Harris as this realmoment of progress. Like, I saw
someone post in response to JoeBiden at the DNC saying that
this is so rare that we have anaging white man ceding power to
a younger black woman. So youknow that people are gonna think

(26:20):
that we have transcended racism,that this is this moment of
progress. And they're also gonnatake that to me that our work is
done. But is it?
And what is the significance ofa president Kamala Harris when
we witness the killing of SoniaMassie? Yeah. And then,
ultimately, if Kamala Harriswins the presidency, what

(26:43):
changes for black people?

Charlene Carruthers (26:45):
I am super clear that a vote for Kamala
Harris could mean Donald Trumpnot becoming president again. So
I understand that. I actuallyget that. I'm not confused about
that. I understand the case thatis being made on that level.
Everything else, I'm notconvinced by. I think people are

(27:06):
being lied to. Like, I'm justlike, literally the day that
Biden announced that he wasstepping down and basically
knighting Kamala or it was asuccession. No Democratic
process for it to happen. Theday that it was announced,
people were excited.
She raised 1,000,000 of dollarsthat day with no commitments to

(27:28):
anything or anybody. It was likeand why? Because people are
absolutely afraid of anotherTrump presidency, and I get it.
I get it. I don't think peopleare out of their minds for
feeling that way.
It was everything else thathappened after that that was
wild for me. Mhmm. And I wasjust like, oh, what do you mean?

(27:48):
She's about to do this and she'sgonna do that and all these
things are no. What is possibleis not having Trump in the White
House again.

Emily Williams (27:54):
Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers (27:55):
That's what's possible. What is also
possible is that if she were towin and new Supreme Court
justices' seats are open, thatis possible. Like, give me the
real. Yeah. Give me the real.
Don't give me this other stuff.Like, she's gonna create all
these opportunities. She's gonnamake sure a ceasefire happens.
All these things. Like, I don'tneed all these false promises.

(28:17):
But let's name what power sheactually has and what we know
she could do. We Biden, when hehad the opportunity to appoint a
new Supreme Court justice,appointed Ketanji Brown. Boom.
That was a promise that he made.That's something that he can
actually fulfill that has lowpolitical stakes, and it has
real consequences for our lives.
I'd rather hear that from peoplethan all this other foolishness

(28:42):
that people are are sharing. Andso I'm on Twitter, for again,
for better or for worse. Andsomeone noted around the time
Obama was inaugurated, it mayhave been at his inauguration,
They were sitting next to ToniMorrison, and Toni Morrison
said, this changes nothing. Shesaid, this changes nothing. And

(29:02):
I was like, wow, my respect forher has deepened.
Because she was there. She wasat the the celebration. You
know, you can recognize thesignificance of a thing and
still note that it changesnothing significant for our
lives. Like, something can benotable. The first woman
president cool, cool.
First, like, Black and SouthAsian woman to be president of

(29:25):
the United States. Cool. But I'mnot clear that that actually
changes the material conditionsof Black people's lives without
struggle. Is it possible? Sure.
But it doesn't happen withoutstruggle.

Emily Williams (30:15):
You're listening to Beyond Voting. We're back
with today's guest, communityorganizer, author, filmmaker,
and founding director of BYP100, Charlene Carruthers. Before
the break, Charlene shared withus how to begin activist work,
and she placed a particularemphasis on talking to people
who may not agree with you. Ithink that's critical to our

(30:36):
work as activists. As she said,nobody is moved if they're only
introduced to or confronted withtheir own views.
Part of activist work is acommitment to working with those
who don't completely agree withus on everything. In the second
half of our discussion, we touchon why solidarity with other
press people is important andwhat their movements can teach

(30:57):
us. The disappointing reality ofmistaking identity politics for
progress and how the mostradical thing we can do for each
other is tell the truth. Gazahas been front and center for
social justice activists. Itwill almost be a year at the
time that we're recording thissince October 7th.
So tell us how the struggles ofblack folks and Palestinians are

(31:21):
interconnected. What lessonshould we be taking from
watching our presidentfacilitate the plausible
genocide of Palestinians inGaza? And what does it mean in
terms of what could happen tomarginalized people here at
home? What lessons should we betaking from the pro Palestinian
organizing that we've seenaround the world?

Charlene Carruthers (31:44):
This is also it's an important question
and also, a question thatdeserves so much time. And part
of why I am even struggling tobegin to answer the question is
because Michael Harriot fromtheGrio just published this
article yesterday. And I justwanna make sure I bring this up
because it's deeply troublingfor me, and I'm disturbed by it

(32:09):
and also by current trends rightnow that I think are not just,
like, traditional cointerpo inthe sense of someone is
literally just setting up blackpeople on TikTok and Twitter to
say black people should not bein support of Palestine at the
expense of our own lives here,our own experiences here.

Emily Williams (32:33):
But I don't think

Charlene Carruthers (32:33):
that's happening in the streets. It's a
thing that's happening onlinewhere people are engaged in a
lot of arguments right nowabout, like, saying that Black
people really shouldn't beconcerned about what's happening
in Palestine. They need to bemore concerned here. So, yeah,
he writes this piece, Why ProPalestine Activists Are Beefing
With Kamala Harris' BlackSupporters, explained. And it's

(32:55):
one of the most despicablepieces I've ever read in my life
because what it is doing ispitting this false binary based
on the so called numbers ofBlack people who are suffering
here and Palestinians sufferingin Gaza specifically, with no
mention of actually, like, thereare black Palestinians, but that
doesn't really matter in thispiece.

Emily Williams (33:16):
Right. Right.

Charlene Carruthers (33:17):
And also with a lack of recognition of
the long hail, not justsolidarities between black
Americans and Palestinians, butBlack and African people
globally with the Palestinianstruggle for liberation. It has
been going on since 1948 andthen some that people and Black

(33:38):
Palestinians themselves beingengaged in struggle against
Zionism and the Zionist statethat has occupied their land and
and pushed them out. And so ifpeople take away nothing else,
if you don't care about anythingelse, would you or could you
care that the very same moneyand resources that should go

(34:02):
into your children's schools,into parks, into health care,
into air conditioning, intopublic transportation in your
homes and in your communities isbeing used to buy bombs. That's
where that money is being spent.It is being spent to do that.

(34:23):
So if you care about nothingelse, can you care about the
fact that what should be goingtowards your communities is
going towards killing otherpeople? So if you can care about
that, I also implore people tocare very deeply about the fact
that cops here in the U. S. Arebeing trained with cops in the
state known as Israel. They arebeing trained together on how to

(34:47):
best surveil, oppress, dominate,and enact violence in our
communities.
They're being trained togetherright here through a company
called Geely that has a basehere in Atlanta and in Georgia
and in other places in theworld. They're learning tactics
together. So the same thingsthat they're learning over there
and enacting on Palestinians,they're doing it in our

(35:09):
communities. Those two thingsalone, the amount of money that
is spent and the crosspollination of tactics against
us, I would implore people toconsider in understanding what's
at stake for us in our lives.And the last thing I'll say is
who does it serve when we saywe're okay with the US
supporting genocide, or if youwanna call it a conflict or you

(35:31):
wanna call it war, what does itserve us to endorse that?
How does that help us?

Emily Williams (35:37):
Right.

Charlene Carruthers (35:38):
How does that actually help us? Just as
as much as people are upsetrighteously about the US
involvement and what ishappening in Gaza and its
complicity and its supporting ofit, yes, be angry about what it
is not doing and what it isdoing dangerously and violently
against Black people here in theUS. I got room for anger for

(35:59):
both, but we don't have tostrike down other people in that
process.

Emily Williams (36:04):
I mean, just the particular ruthlessness with
which the bombs are beingdropped in Gaza, you know, it's
over 40,000 people who have beenkilled. The ruthlessness plus
the complete disregard for anykind of international law and
going again so boldly what themajority of the world wants. And

(36:26):
I think that that could be athreat here in the US, and,
basically, Donald Trump inproject 2025 has said this much.
Right? That they wanna givepolice immunity in the event
that they kill someone.
Right? And so, you know, that'sa concrete connection of the IDF
training police here in the US.So, Charlene, we're gonna take

(36:48):
this to BLM for just a second.So let's say that BLM is as
strong today as it was at theheight of its influence. How do
you think they would beinfluencing this year's
election?

Charlene Carruthers (37:01):
What will be happening is that there would
be a very clear opposition tothe publicly unchecked
installation of Kamala Harris asthe Democratic nominee without a
commitment to a ceasefire,without a commitment to other
things as well, includingreparations, including massive

(37:22):
public transportation, publicworks, policing out of our
schools, like the ending of the1033 program, which provides
military equipment to localpolice departments. It's a
federal program. Yeah. Like, inthe streets and also in media,
like, the rhetoric would bedifferent. There would be
clarity of the connectionsbetween the genocide in Gaza, in

(37:45):
Congo, in Sudan, the imperialincursion in Haiti right now.
There would be clear lines beingdrawn and no one would be able
to say people are being singleissue voters. Because a part of
the thing that confused peopleor, like, really threw people
off at the height of themovement's power was how people
refused to be single issue.

Emily Williams (38:05):
Mhmm.

Charlene Carruthers (38:05):
Like, to refuse to think that even
policing was a single issue.That is not a single issue. It
is connected to all thesethings. It's not a single issue.
So I think the connections willbe clearer because they're
there, but they're beingintentionally blurred,
intentionally being made to beopaque when they're actually
quite transparent.

(38:26):
I think that's what would bepossible. And just to be clear,
like, I agree with theunderlying assumption that the
movement is not as powerful inthat question that you named.

Emily Williams (38:34):
Okay. Yeah. We appreciate that. And what I also
wanna underscore for activistsis that that's what's possible,
Right? When we do the work tobuild our movements and we have
strong organizing and committedorganizers, those are the things
that we can do.
Right. I want activists to knowthat and particularly young
activists. Okay. I'm gonna askyou just one more question about

(38:55):
the election. Okay.
What does it mean to put a blackfemale face on empire? I mean
but look at it. I'm thinkingabout Linda Thomas Greenfield
representing us at the UN,Kamala Harris. Right? Karine
Jean Pierre getting up thereevery day, holding those press

(39:17):
conferences.
Oh, yeah. You know, what wouldyou say to an activist who is
excited about Harris' nominationand wants to celebrate that, but
disagrees with some of herprevious or current policy
positions.

Charlene Carruthers (39:33):
I would say to an activist who, like, wants
to support Kamala Harris and hasdisagreed with some of her
previous practices, to staycurious, ask questions, and be
okay with your dissentingopinion, your dissenting
position. Keep it. Hold on toit. Remain unconvinced. I'm not

(39:54):
saying you gotta be like, youshouldn't vote for her.
That's not what I'm actuallysaying. But don't become
convinced. Don't do what many ofus did, including myself, in
allowing myself to believe thatBarack Obama was a signal for
better days to come. Like, therewas a time where I absolutely
believed that, and I wasn'tlike, actually, I just like, I
didn't realize that that mansaid in his speeches before he

(40:16):
was elected that he was insupport of war. Like, he said
it.
He said it. He didn't lie. Heactually did not lie. I wasn't
paying attention. I wasn'tpaying close enough attention to
what he said and what he what heactually articulated that he
believed in.
So hold on to that because thatwill serve us much better in the
long run for you to be like,actually, I'm not completely

(40:39):
sold on this. Then for you to belike, okay. I'm just gonna
ignore all the things that, Idisagree with, and I'm just
gonna throw those away, and I'mgonna hope for the best. No.
Please hold on to that.
We need you because so manypeople are squashing dissent
right now, and we need dissentin this moment. Otherwise, these
people will just get to do whatthey want to do and believe that

(41:03):
everyone disagrees with them,and we don't agree. So please
hold on to that is is what Iwould encourage you to do.

Emily Williams (41:09):
Yeah. That's great advice, and that's also a
tenet of democracy. Right?

Charlene Carruthers (41:13):
That's

Emily Williams (41:13):
right. I mean, we're supposed to be able to
disagree. We're supposed to beable to dissent and be safe
while doing so. And not only besafe while doing so, but be
heard and then represented ingovernment. At least those are
the ideals of democracy.
So, Charlene, we spoke with RosaClemente a few weeks ago, and we
asked her how we take ourradical left politics and apply

(41:35):
them to this moment that we'rein right now. How would you
answer that question? And thenif there is no movement
currently, what do you think itwould take to rebuild?

Charlene Carruthers (41:45):
So how do we apply our radical left
politics in this particularmoment? I think we have to be
honest with people. Tell thetruth. I think it's one of the
most radical things we can doright now and say, Hey, y'all,
this is what we're up against.And we understand that this is
what is at stake.
It is actually not the mostimportant election of our lives
because every election is builtthat way. Like, this is what's

(42:09):
possible if we take thisparticular action and this other
menu of actions. Like, I don'twant you to just vote. These are
other things I really need youto do right now. And this is
what we think could happen.
We're not certain. We'reactually not certain. We're not
gonna make you false promiseslike the Democratic Party will
make you. But what we thinkcould happen if we do this, on
the other side of this, it makesthese things more possible. I

(42:32):
would say that our movements arenot as strong as they need to
be.
We don't have enough power.Movement exists in small towns
and corners of communities oncollege campuses. My goodness.
We just saw what they did onthese college campuses. You
can't ignore what these youngpeople and elders and people in
the middle on college campusesjust did and what they're about

(42:54):
to do when school is back insession.
And so they are quite promising.

Emily Williams (42:59):
Yes.

Charlene Carruthers (42:59):
They are very promising. Yes. They are.
The land movement work that'shappening, the Black and Native
and Black and Indigenous workthat's happening on this
particular land, I don't thinkour movement organizations are
where they need to be. They arenot strong as we need them to
be, at the scale as we need themto be.
But I do believe that it isthere. I absolutely believe that

(43:20):
it is there.

Emily Williams (43:21):
I think there's this misconception that when we
see organizing like we saw oncollege campuses, that it just
was somehow spontaneous and thatit just happened in the moment.
And it's like, no. That wasexpertise. That was skill. That
was planning.
That was strategy.

Charlene Carruthers (43:38):
Absolutely.

Emily Williams (43:39):
I want activists to remember that. It's not just
the march. It's not just the diein or the tent cities. Right?
It's Mhmm.
It's everything that comesbefore that, and it starts with
the commitment Mhmm. Toorganizing. Okay. So this is
such a critical question,Charlene.

Charlene Carruthers (43:57):
Mhmm.

Emily Williams (43:58):
What do you say to people who say that they
don't have the mental, physical,or psychological capacity to
join a social justice movement?And relatedly, some folks on
social media have asked ifactivists prioritizing self care
is actually an abdication ofresponsibility. Where do rest as

(44:19):
resistance, radical imagination,and self care fit into movement
building?

Charlene Carruthers (44:26):
Emily, you ain't getting me in trouble.

Emily Williams (44:28):
Well, let me also say this that I hear that
from young people. And often,they'll say, oh, Emily, I don't
have the capacity for that. Youknow, I'm doing x, y, z things.
And for me, it's disappointingto hear that. Well, I don't
wanna answer the question foryou, but I'll I'll say what I
say to them is that when we talkabout self care, when we talk
about not having the capacity,that should be in response to

(44:50):
something.
Right? Mhmm. You know, thoseanalyses came about because
activists from the civil rightsera were just running themselves
into the ground Mhmm. And nothaving any resources or, you
know, essentially dying aloneafter they had committed their
lives to struggle, right, forthe betterment of all of us.

Charlene Carruthers (45:08):
That's right.

Emily Williams (45:08):
And so it's not like we just rest to rest. We
rest in response to having donereally serious hard work. Right?

Charlene Carruthers (45:17):
My goodness. Yes. So I think rest
is many things, includingessential for our bodies, for
our spirits, for our minds. It'slike you can't go hard for 7
days a week for 7 months withoutconsequences. Right.
Like, that's that's not real.Even the students coming out of
the encampments, the one that Idid check-in with, like, I just

(45:38):
hope you took some downtimeafter that because there's a lot
more to come. You take your restbecause you work Yep. In
addition to being a student, soyou need rest. Yep.
So it's one thing for you tosay, actually, I have to work
part time or full time, and I'ma full time student. And maybe
even I'm a caretaker, so I don'thave the capacity to do all
these things. So what I wouldsay is, what do you have the

(46:00):
capacity to do? You have, like,maybe an hour every 2 weeks to
phone bank, to Canvas, on theweekends. I give those examples
as 2 things that I, like, amalways anxious to do, but I do
them because I've done because Ihave to, not because I like to
do either one of those things.
Or can you attend the meeting,or can you invite someone else

(46:21):
to go because you can't go? Andthen accepting that your choices
have consequences either way.That if you choose to say,
actually, I don't have thecapacity to do this, alright
then. Then you have to make surethat there's room for other
people. So don't shit on otherfolks who do decide to do it.
I'm not saying that you don'tget a say be I'm not one of
those people. You didn't vote soyou don't get to have an

(46:41):
opinion. I'm not one of thosepeople. Mhmm. I'm a you didn't
vote so don't shit on the peoplewho did kinda thing.
Yeah. If you're not able tocontribute, if you're not able
to participate, cool. Just don'tbe mean to the people who are,
and don't be hypercritical tothe people who are. And it's
okay. Figure out what else whatwhat you need to do for yourself

(47:02):
in that particular moment, andthen hopefully, you can find
some space to contribute in away that helps to move the work
forward.
So I think we need rest. I knowwe need rest. Our bodies need
rest. But that in and of itselfis not collective resistance. I
don't think it is.
I think Black people organizingto say, we are not going to work

(47:25):
40 hours a week for you and notbe paid enough for us to be able
to not just pay our bills, butto enjoy life. So we're actually
going to not work today. We'reactually going to go on strike
even we're demanding time off orwhatever that is. That is not
just saying I'm gonna go restover here. We're gonna organize

(47:48):
so that we can have space torest.
That's a much different thing.We wanna organize as students so
the students coming up, after usnext year don't have to do the
same fight and they couldactually focus on being
students. And they could havemore spaciousness, or I could
have more spaciousness so Idon't have to continue to fight
this. But you have to actuallycreate the conditions to have

(48:09):
that more spaciousness. The lastthing I'll say on this is that
for me like, I'm not a full timeorganizer anymore.
So what that's looking like forme is like, okay, I can
contribute. I can go hard ish orgo hard for a set amount of
time, do the things that I sayI'm going to do, and then I need
to take a break. That isdifferent from just saying I'm a

(48:29):
just go over here and rest, andI'm not gonna do anything. Mhmm.
It is also a recognition thatI'm not the only one who could
do the work Yep.
And that there should be otherpeople who are doing the work
because it is not a movement ifit's only a small group of
people doing the work all thetime. So other people can take
breaks and then come back whenthey're ready.

Emily Williams (48:47):
Yep. Absolutely. And I love that because I hear
so often, like, particularlystudents saying things like, oh,
capitalism. I'm just gonna gotake a nap. And it's like,
that's not resistance.
That's not collectiveresistance. And that's so
important that's such animportant distinction to make
for the young people who Yeah.You know, have read the Nap
Ministry and then think thatjust because they're napping

(49:09):
that that's then resistance.Right?

Charlene Carruthers (49:10):
No. It's something else. You taking a
nap. Right. And that's okay.
Just name it as that, but don'tname it as something else.
Right.

Emily Williams (49:17):
Right. Exactly. Okay. So just two more
questions, Charlene. Mhmm.
What can BLM and black radicaltraditions teach us about how to
confront today's fight forliberation?

Charlene Carruthers (49:28):
I think one thing that folks can learn from
these various black liberationmovements is that we need each
other. Even if we don't likeeach other, we need each other,
and that we're not gonna alwayslike each other. And so it was
like, how do we dig deep intothe love that is present and

(49:49):
say, okay, how do we meet eachother on the terms of respect,
the terms of actually we're notgonna agree with each other all
the time, but we agree on thesethings. And in order for us to
get any of these things changedor transformed, we're gonna have
to do it with each other. So wegotta figure out how we're gonna
do it together.
And that's not just unique toBlack Liberation work, but I

(50:10):
will say that there's so manydiverging positions within the
Black Radical Tradition and BLM,Movement for Black Lives, all
these things. What I oftentimesfind is, at least in
organizations that I've beeninvolved in, that there's a high
level of political alignment andthen a high level of relational
dysfunction. Because actually,we're not we're not disagreeing

(50:33):
with each other on what we thinkshould be done in the
organization. But we aredysfunctional as all get out in
the ways that we are relatingand communicating with each
other. Even if we are like, Idon't wanna accept that I don't
like y'all, then we have toaccept that this is not the
space for you and that there areother spaces in movement.
And the black radical traditionis broad and that if a

(50:55):
particular space that you're inin this particular moment isn't
working, you can leave. Don'tstay and keep yourself and other
people miserable. Go.

Emily Williams (51:04):
Right.

Charlene Carruthers (51:04):
Go. Go somewhere else. Please, Lord,
please go somewhere else.

Emily Williams (51:08):
Right.

Charlene Carruthers (51:08):
Because that's okay. And you should have
that love for yourself enough tonot stay somewhere where you
don't wanna be.

Emily Williams (51:16):
Yeah. Yeah. And I love how you say, we need each
other, and we're not alwaysgonna like each other. And then
it's like, okay. You have tolearn how to manage that, and
you have to learn how to manageyour own feelings with that
mostly.
Right? We have to figure out howto be uncomfortable in that
process. Right? And that'sactually how we grow.

Charlene Carruthers (51:34):
That's right.

Emily Williams (51:35):
Alright. Charlene, this has been so
wonderful. This is our lastquestion for you. Why should we
tell young people to get active,and how do we engage nonvoters?

Charlene Carruthers (51:45):
Well, one, we don't even have to tell young
people that they should beactive. I think that there are
enough young people out theretelling other young folks or
giving examples of what is atstake. And that's who y'all can
go you ain't gotta listen to me.That's fine. You don't have to
listen to me.
But what about the people onyour college campus, in your
neighborhood, yourorganizations, the places that

(52:06):
you work? What are they sayingis possible and what is
necessary? And lean into thatand be curious about that. Ask
questions. Figure out how youcan contribute to the work
because I think that folks knowthat what is happening is not
okay.
The turning point isunderstanding that something has
to be done about it and that wecan all play some sort of role

(52:29):
in making that happen. And forfolks who don't vote or who are
not I mean, there are people whocan't vote, people who have
certain convictions in certainstates where they're unable to
vote. We have people who areundocumented, people who have
very different legal statuseswho are unable to vote. And so
what if we understood that theway that we show up in politics,

(52:51):
in public, is not just for thesake of ourselves as
individuals, but for the sake ofeveryone, regardless of their
voting status, regardless oftheir voting status. If we come
to the the floor with that notbeing about who can and who
cannot vote, but being about whocan live and how we are living,
who can live in what ways andwho can't live in other ways,

(53:11):
then I think that we can show upwith more respect and more
dignity for everybody.

Emily Williams (53:17):
Yeah. Well, that in and of itself is brilliant.
Thank you, Charlene. This hasbeen great.

Charlene Carruthers (53:22):
Thank you so much for having me today,
Emily.

Emily Williams (53:27):
Over the course of this season, I've been trying
to find the words to capturewhat it feels like to be someone
who's invested in Americanpolitics right now. And I think
capture is the right wordbecause it feels like American
politics is trapped in a cyclethat swings from apathy and
ignorance directly into paniclike clockwork every 4 years.

(53:49):
Every election is the mostimportant one of our lifetimes,
and we're forced to carry thatburden into the voting booth.
Life and death, democracy orfascism. Our chances to have our
voices heard depend on makingthe right decision in that
booth.
The weight of that inevitablyexhausts us and wears us down.

(54:11):
And over time, many folks eithergive up on ever seeing things
change and eventually completelydisengage, or they watch the
fire of their radical valuesslowly fade into dimmer, more
pragmatic political choices.They do what Alberto Toscano in
episode 4 talked about. Andeventually, they abandon their

(54:32):
radical political imaginaries tobecome water carriers for
liberalism in the name ofdefeating fascism and protecting
democracy. Both are prettyconvincing and attractive
thought processes to follow.
They absolve us ofresponsibility and allow us to
save our efforts in the face ofoverwhelming and impossible
odds. Sure. Getting money out ofpolitics would change things,

(54:56):
but isn't that impossible? Ofcourse, we'd love to have
universal health care, butcampaigning on that might
jeopardize our wins and swingstates, and we can't afford to
lose those. These are theexcuses that so many of us give
ourselves to not take action.
But that's why we keep sayingthat democracy requires more

(55:16):
participation than just voting.Our radical vision has to go
beyond voting because the voteyou cast isn't the only or even
the most important place changecomes from. Revolutions can be
slow things at times where weall push the boulder up the hill
together every day, Andsometimes all we get is keeping
the huge rock from rolling downthe hill and destroying all the

(55:39):
progress we've made and thevictories we've built. But part
of what activists like Charleneare sharing with us is that's
okay because we can create avision of the world that comes
after the revolution, one thatgives us all a peak to push
toward. Voting can seem silly orfutile, and that's okay too,

(56:00):
especially when you know thatthe real work that makes
tangible change in people'slives isn't simply your vote.
It's the work we do together toreach the top of that hill. Our
vote can be a shield thatprotects the vulnerable and
gives voice in support of thedisenfranchised. But it's what
we do outside the booth thatwill ultimately make the

(56:20):
difference in our communities,slow the spread of fascism, and
create the model for the worldwe want to live in. It's staying
curious, skeptical and committedto speaking truth to power.
Dissent is vital to ourdemocracy.
Our voices are our most powerfultool in the fight for change.

(56:41):
Demand the right to be heard.While a liberal politics might
assert that voting is the mostimportant thing you can do to
participate in a democracy, aradical revolutionary politic
will tell you that voting isjust the beginning. A radical
politic is, as Angela Davis putit, one that grasps at the root
of the problems we face insteadof merely pruning the leaves and

(57:03):
calling the work done. Itrecognizes that real substantive
change comes from action andthat action could be shutting
down the efforts of the policestate to deport asylum seekers
back to a place that they gaveall they had to escape.
It could be starting a programthat organizes rides to other
states for people who needreproductive health care. It

(57:25):
could be running for office inlocal elections. It could be
advocating for policies thattruly address the needs of
unhoused people and createsopportunities for them to thrive
in society. Or it could bebuilding community with your
neighbors in the face of risingnatural disasters to make sure
that no one is left unpreparedregardless of whether you agree

(57:46):
with each other politically. Allof these things are small
actions that grow when we dothem together and they build
something durable alongside theruins of our government's broken
institutions, processes andpromises.
We don't have to rely on votingas a sole provider of change and
hope in our lives because we canbuild something better than this

(58:06):
system would ever give us. It'san act of defiance and dissent,
something that is vital in ademocracy, but it's also an act
of devotion to our fellow humansand is focused on that radical
vision of a better future. Bynow you might have guessed that
I'm not here to tell you whetherto vote or not nor which
candidate you should vote for ifyou do. That's a decision

(58:29):
everyone needs to make forthemselves. But what I will say
at the end of our 1st season isregardless of what you decide, I
hope you'll remember that whatbrings about real change comes
from something far moreimpactful than voting.
It comes from you. So tell us,how will you make a commitment

(58:50):
to joining the movement forliberation? Are you listening
closely to what our leaders sayand not taking for granted what
their positions are on theissues that matter to you? Tell
us on IG at arcuscenter or sayit with me, drop it in your 5
star review of the show. Themore folks who share our show,
the more we'll grow our audienceand continue to be able to bring

(59:12):
you episodes about criticalissues that matter to you.
A million thanks to CharleneCaruthers for helping us close
our season with this banger ofan episode. I'm so grateful for
the wisdom she shared with usand her incredible work fighting
for change and inspiring othersto do the same. You can find
Charlene and her work atCharlene Carruthers.com, on

(59:34):
Twitter at Charlene CAC, and onIG at Charlene Carruthers. If
you like this episode or even ifyou've learned one interesting
or valuable or thought provokingthing this season, please make
sure to share our show witheveryone you know, friends,
family, neighbors, exes,everyone. Also, take a minute to

(59:58):
visit us at arcuscenter.kzoo.eduand check out the important work
we're doing with the nextgeneration of social justice and
human rights leaders.
That's it for this episode ofBeyond Voting. Don't forget to
join us in 2 weeks for our postelection special. Until then,

(01:00:19):
thanks so much for joining us.We'll see you in the streets.
Beyond voting is hosted by me,Emily Williams.
Keisha TK Dutes is our executiveproducer. Kristen Bennett is our
producer. And this episode waswritten by Kristen Bennett and

(01:00:40):
me. Our sound designer andengineer is Manny Faces.
Marketing is courtesy ofFay'Beon Mickens, and our music
is provided by Motion Array.
Special thanks to my team at theArcus Center For Social Justice
Leadership, Quentin, Crimson,Tamara, Winter, and Kierra.
Beyond voting is a production ofPhilo's Future Media.