Democracy: The Illusion of Choice. Featuring Dr. Melina Abdullah and Madiba Denning

Episode Transcript
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Emily Williams (01:12):
I'm Emily Williams, executive director of
the Arcus Center For SocialJustice Leadership at Kalamazoo
College. This is Beyond Voting.We started this show for people
like you and me, people who careabout making a difference in the
world, People who want to sharein redesigning the democracy we

(01:32):
deserve outside of the typicalpolitical binary. This podcast
is rooted in our conviction thatdemocracy requires more
participation than just voting.It's up to all of us to take
action if we wanna see realchange.
We'll feature conversations withleaders, activists, and
educators discussing the stateof our country's institutions,

(01:55):
ongoing systems of oppression,and most importantly, how we,
the people, can take criticalactions in pursuit of true
equity and justice. Welcome toour special post election
edition of Beyond Voting. First,I wanna acknowledge the hurt,
anger, and fear that many in ourcommunities are facing after the

(02:18):
results of this year'spresidential election. Now is
the time to remember that wehave the tools to organize, form
communities that care for eachother, and fight back against
harmful policies that we knowwill come in the near future. So
please find your folks and makeplans about how to care for one
another.

(02:38):
We need each other, and now isnot the time to give into
despair. This week's specialguest is doctor Melina Abdullah,
activist in 2024 vicepresidential candidate with
Cornel West for the justice forall party. But before we get
into our interview, I thought itwould be good to hear from
someone who can help usunderstand the legal challenges

(02:59):
and issues that had such aprofound effect on our elections
across the country and what lawscould come into play as the new
president takes office again. SoI reached out to Madiba Denny,
deputy editor of Balls andStrikes, an online legal
magazine that analyzes andreports on the legal system and
its inherent political and realworld consequences. She's also

(03:23):
the author of The OriginalismTrap, How Extremists Stole the
Constitution and How We, thePeople, Can Take It Back.
Her writing has been featured inoutlets including The Atlantic
and The Washington Post. We knewwe had to dig in quickly, so we
did a lightning round of sortsto figure out which electoral
laws help explain how we gothere and if there's any hope

(03:45):
those laws could yield adifferent outcome 4 years from
now. Madiba, you ready?

Madiba Dennie (03:51):
Let's do this.

Okay. Let's jump right into it. You do a lot of
work on representation. How isit that a country like the USA,
that we have such an antidiversity president-elect? I
mean, how could he be so openlyhostile to our citizens and not
be violating any antidiscrimination law?

I think that a lot of people unfortunately
responded to the presidentelect's racist rhetoric and
thought positively of his plans.The law and the government
elected officials have oftenbeen a tool to act on some of
the nation's worst impulses. SoTrump is not new in this regard.

(04:35):
We've had all sorts ofdiscriminatory policies and
presidents before. I thinkwhat's so awful and challenging
now is the desire that folkshave had to think that we were
past this, to think that we wereready to move on and that like
we have had the civil rightsmovement, we've had the Voting
Rights Act.
With that said, the SupremeCourt also gutted the Voting

(04:58):
Rights Act over the past 15years or so in a number of
cases, which makes it harder forpeople of color to participate
freely, fully, and equally inthe political process. And
perhaps as a result, makes iteasier for racist demagogues
like Trump to win office.

Yeah, definitely. Let's get into more
legal stuff. In the days priorto election day, there were
pivotal court decisionsaffecting voter eligibility.
Right? You were just mentioningthis.
But in states like Virginia andGeorgia and even potential voter
disenfranchisement in Nevada. Sowhat happened to state election

(05:39):
laws between 2020 and now thathelped cause this mess? And
then, also, what are we going tohave to work towards to reverse
and restore these voting rights?

Yeah. So the first thing I wanna point out is
that voter fraud is vanishinglyrare. It's it's not a not really
an actual thing that affects theoutcome of elections. But
despite that being the case,when Trump lost the 2020
election, he kept lying all thetime about how he was the real

(06:14):
winner and there was thismassive voter fraud that was
responsible for his loss. And ifif illegal ballot justify
passing restrictive voterlegislation saying well there's
been all this voter fraud and sowe need to make it harder for

(06:37):
people to vote.
I think they said, make itharder to cheat but what it was
actually doing was just makingharder for plenty of eligible
people to vote. And they didthis in a bunch of ways. One of
the ones I think people arereally familiar with are voter
ID laws, but there are alsothings like voter purchase, like
you saw in Virginia, likeremoving people from the voter
rolls and having them try pullup a whole heap of documentation

(07:01):
that they may not readily haveaccess to all over again to
prove that they are registeredto vote. Or having to fill out
complicated forms, I believe waslike one of the things you saw
in Arizona was like, oh, if youhave this type of if you
register on this particularform, you're allowed to use this
ID, but if you don't, then youhave to do another process. All
of these things that sort of addconfusion and make it harder on

(07:23):
your average voters who actuallyexercise their right.
And also things that aren'teven, requirements for voters,
but just things thatlogistically make it more
challenging, like limiting thenumber of polling places, so
then people wind up waiting forhours and hours in line. The
state right now is escaping me,but I was reading just the other
day about one state that had,like, a polling place per

(07:45):
county. And, you know, somecounties are very small, so it
works out there. But othercounties have, like, a1000000
people. So having just a pollingplace, like, is not going to
adequately serve that populationat all.
So these are some of the waysthat laws have changed in
between the 2020 election andnow that make it harder for

(08:05):
people to vote and to have theirvotes count.

Thank you. And that's so helpful to think
through those kinds of detailsbecause we hear about it in the
headlines, but we don't thinkabout things like, well, if
there's only one polling placeper county and there's a 1000000
people in that county, ofcourse, that's gonna block some
people from voting. So we haveplaces like Missouri enshrining
abortion rights into theconstitution, voting for a

(08:29):
minimum wage hike, votingagainst pay increase for cops,
but the state went to Trump. Andin California, people voted
against rent control, repealingslavery, and voted against the
minimum wage hike, but the statewent to Harris. How do they make
sense of places like Missourithat supported left wing

(08:50):
policies but still voted for afar right president?
And then on the flip side, wouldwe make up places like
California that did theopposite?

Yeah. This is something I have personally been
struggling with as well, tryingto make sense of it. In some
ways, I think you just it'sliterally impossible to make
sense of it and that floatersare not necessarily rational
actors. We all sort of pretendthat we have consistent beliefs,
but not everybody does or noteverybody does at all times. And
so, you know, they can hold 2conflicting thoughts in in in

(09:23):
your head simultaneously.
So part of that can I think canbe explained by people just
believe all sorts of stuff? ButI think there are a couple other
possible explanations as well. Ithink sometimes ballot language
can be confusing. People don'tnecessarily understand what it
is that they're voting for. AndI think as a as a local example,

(09:46):
I'm in New York and we had, anequal rights amendment on our
ballot as a as a ballotinitiative.
And some folks were saying somesome conservative people who
were like anti careercommunities were saying, oh,
vote against this to protectgirls in sports. Whereas other
people are like, no, we need tovote for this to protect
abortion rights and protecttrans people from discrimination

(10:08):
on the basis of sex. So thereare ways that people can spin
the very same ballot proposal.And depending on what
information you're exposed to,you might think it does
something different than what itdoes, or you might not know how
to understand it. I think thatthe information ecosystems that
people live in are just soimportant because they're so

(10:30):
siloed and so we wind up withpeople living in different
universes basically, justoperating under different sets
of what they think are facts.
Like there are no there are noshared facts anymore and I think
that's a a real problem. And Ithink sort of similarly to that
point about lack of information,I think some people might not

(10:52):
have realized in places likeMissouri, you know, they're like
enshrining abortion and rightsinto their constitution. So they
might think, we're good now.Abortion is safe now. And so I
feel conservatively about otherissues, but I wanna make sure
that my reproductive health careis taken care of.
So I think, oh, well, it's fine.I can I can vote for Trump and
but I'll protect abortion rightsin my state constitution? And

(11:14):
they may not be cognizant thatwith Trump in office, they are
going to pursue a nationwideabortion ban. And so I think
that there is just a lack ofinformation that can partially
explain the kind ofcontradictory ballot positions
we're seeing. I don't wanna sortof take away voters' agency.
I don't wanna say, oh, they'rejust confused because I think a

(11:36):
lot of people tragically,awfully did just choose fascism.
I think they selected it withmore or less awareness, but they
knew, you know, Trump wasn'thiding who he was, and they
chose that. So I don't wanna saythat maybe if these voters were
just better educated orsomething, they would have
thought that. I think it's notit can't entirely be explained

(11:58):
by education. But I do thinkthat the information people are
exposed to is at least part ofit.

Yeah. Yeah. And I agree with you on that. I
think there's so muchinformation that's available to
people now. And also, I thinkwith social media that there's
also this notion that if youfollow an influencer and they're
sharing political ideas, thatthose things are true and
they're not necessarily lookingat, well, what are their biases?
Right? Or what else could betrue at the same time? And I

(12:26):
think you make a really goodpoint. We can't take away
people's agency. Donald Trumphas been telling us his plans.
Project 2025 has been availablefor, you know, almost a year
now. And so I think you're rightthat some people have chosen
fascism, and and are okay withthat or think that they stand to
gain from that or stand to gainsome protection from that. And
we we can't forget that. And Ithink that's one of the most

(12:48):
sober realities for a lot ofpeople right now. Yeah.
Alright, Madiba. Let's talkabout the elephant in the room.
Trump has been convicted of 34felonies in New York state.
He'll be sentenced sometime inthe next 3 weeks, we think.
Plus, there are pending trialsand investigations.

(13:09):
How does it work to have apresident-elect that is a
convicted felon? What's thelikelihood that he'll be held
accountable at all?

I think it is vanishingly small. The more time
goes on, I think time was alwaysof the essence. And I think that
enough of the people in chargeof some of the, like, the
electoral responses andinvestigations, I think they
weren't fully cognizant of that,or I think they thought, oh, you
know, I wanna do everything,like, buy the book and really

(13:41):
take my time and build to be thebig case, like, later, because
which is sort of sort of likestandard practice. Locking up,
like, the little guys first andyou work your way up to the
kingpin. And that may be finein, like, a run of the mill
case, but when democracy itselfis on the line, that doesn't
work.
You can't just sort of playaround the edges and hope that

(14:04):
things are still fine later. Ithink you need to take swift
action, and that's not somethingthat we saw. I think, like, a
lot of these cases should havebeen resolved a long time ago.
Trump has been committing crimesin public for a long time. Like,
we didn't need to be stillresolving things in 2024.
So I think that is a a failureof the investigators and

(14:28):
prosecutors and folks like thatwho are in charge. And I think
that at least as far as federaloffenses go, I find it really
difficult to see howaccountability can still happen
at this point because once Trumpenters the White House, he will
probably just tell DOJ that'sover now. That's finished. You

(14:52):
were dropping any investigationinto me. And if they refuse,
he'll probably just fire them.
So I am really uncertain as towhat sort of federal recourse
that there is. At the same time,Trump's convictions currently
are in, New York state courts.So it is possible that states
can still hold him responsible,or at least that they might try

(15:13):
to still hold him responsiblefor various violations of state
law. I'm not sure yet how thatwill play out because I think
that it does still come down topolitical will at a certain
point. I think we've seeninstances like that, especially,
you know, when you look at thefederal investigation.
Thinking a lot of the evidencewas right there, but people

(15:34):
weren't willing to act on ityet. So I don't know if that
will be the case again when itcomes to state law. But I think
that, between the 2, betweenstate courts and federal courts,
I think state courts areprobably where the higher chance
of accountability is right now.Mhmm.

And then would that prevent him from taking the
presidency at this point, evenif he were, you know, convicted
at the state level?

That's an excellent question. I mean, he
has been convicted at the at thestate level. He is a person with
felonies. And to my knowledge, Idon't think there's actually
anything written in theconstitution about that. Folks
probably didn't think they hadto worry about that as they were
writing.
That was just that did not crosstheir minds, or they thought
that our institutions and checksand balances were strong enough

(16:21):
that it wouldn't get to thatpoint. Turns out they were
mistaken. I can imagine a worldwhere despite Trump's felony
convictions, the court sayssomething like, oh, but because
you're president, we aresuspending sentence or
something. Or like or be like,because you're the
president-elect, were you gonnado this, that, and the other? So
I can see him skating by andlike not actually experiencing

(16:42):
real consequences.
I would be deeply curious andfascinated to see if he does
actually get, like, a a jailtime sentence that any other
person would get. I have no ideawhat happens then. Do you put
secret service in jail too? Doyou have him try to run the
country from a prison cell? Ihave no idea.

(17:03):
So I think we're in foreignterritory here. I think this is
pretty unprecedented.

Definitely. Yeah. Well, I guess we have to
wait and see on that one. Isthere anything that we don't
know that we need to understandabout the outcome of this
election? And how do you seethat factoring into future
elections?

Well, I think that folks should familiarize
themselves more. You mentionedproject 2025 earlier. I think
folks definitely need to knowwhat's coming down the pike, and
so that they can try starting toprepare themselves to either
push back by law or otherwise.Otherwise, I'd be just taking
whatever measures you can inyour individual life to, like,

(17:46):
protect yourself and the peoplearound you. But also, you know,
bringing bringing legalchallenges to some of the things
that the administration will tryto implement.
I think something I'm reallyconcerned about and don't know
about the future of right now iswhat any of this means for the
legitimacy of the constitutionat all, because Trump is

(18:10):
constitutionally disqualifiedfor the presidency. We have a
whole amendment in theconstitution about what we do
with insurrectionists becausewe've done this before. And yet
again, we had a whitesupremacist insurrection for the
second time, and this time, thecourts entirely well, I
shouldn't say the courts. Somecourts tried to follow it, but

(18:32):
the Supreme Court ignored theconstitution's unqualified
command that a person who hadtaken an oath of office and then
violated that oath byparticipating in an insurrection
cannot hold office again. So nowit's like that provision of the
constitution is essentiallynullified, and we have seen

(18:54):
other attacks on thosereconstruction amendments as
well, whether by undercuttingthe Voting Rights Act, or by
ending affirmative action, or byreversing Roe v Wade.
All of those things were coveredby the post Civil War amendments

(19:14):
to the Constitution. And so I amdeeply worried about the fate of
those amendments and their theirunderstanding. I think where we
are right now is especiallyhard. We just took a big loss.
But I personally find it usefulto remember that this fight has

(19:36):
been going on for a long time,and that people have secured
wins in the wake of seriouslosses and serious hardships
before.
So what is happening now is notnecessarily what will be
happening in the future, whatwill always be happening. And I
think that it's really importantfor us to remember that and not
just sort of give in todoomerism. I think that's step

(19:59):
1, because if you don't do that,then you've already lost. And
there's nothing that thefascists would love more than
that, than for us to make theirlives easier. So that's step 1.
I think step 2 is connectingwith people around us. Finding
other people who share acommitment to a multiracial

(20:20):
democracy. And if thatcommitment is not there yet,
like working to build it amongeveryone we know. I think we
start small, we start on thelocal level, especially since
the federal apparatus is aboutto be even more weaponized. So I
think that we do what we canclose to home and try and try

(20:45):
build that until until it'ssomething larger, you know,
whether working with like laborunions or other, sorts of like
civil rights efforts.
Finding what issue matters to usclose to home and working on
that and building up from there.I think those are probably our
first two big steps.

Yeah, definitely. And one of the
things that I've seen alreadywith some of the migrant rights
groups in Chicago, they'realready saying that they're
going to stand up to anyattempts at deportation or any
attempts, at at violating thethe human rights of the
migrants, and they're callingfor people to be in solidarity.
And so I think that that's gonnahave to be another huge step

(21:24):
that people are gonna have tomake is that even if if you
yourself aren't a migrant, yougotta stand up for their human
rights too. And we're gonna haveto see that across groups as
different groups are attacked inwhat's to come. Madiba, where
can our listeners follow you andfind your work?

Well, so you can find my work in your local
library or bookstore. I had anarticle come out earlier this
year, The Originalism Trap, HowExtremists Stole the
Constitution and How We thePeople Can Take It Back. So a
lot a lot more details in thereon affirmative steps that people
can take to to fight formultiracial democracy. And, I'm

(22:03):
also the deputy editor andcontributor at ballsandstrikes.
So ballsandstrikes.org, check itout.
A lot of writing there about thelaw written for non lawyers to
understand.

Wonderful. Wonderful. Madiba, thank you so
much for breaking down all ofthe legal considerations in this
moment.

Thank you for having me.

Madiba Denny, deputy editor of Balls and
Stripes, and get her book, TheOriginalism Trap, How Extremists
Stole the Constitution and HowWe the People Could Take It
Back. This week's special guestis doctor Molina Abdullah,

(23:11):
activist in 2024 vicepresidential candidate with
Cornel West for the justice forall party. She's professor of
Pan African studies at Cal StateLA's College of Ethnic Studies,
cofounder of Black Lives MatterLos Angeles and Black Lives
Matter Grassroots where she'salso the director. She's a
leader in the California FacultyAssociation, which is a faculty

(23:33):
union and a mama of 3. DoctorAbdullah earned her PhD from
University of SouthernCalifornia in political science
and her BA from HowardUniversity in African American
studies.
Known by the moniker, doc MeliMel, she's creator, host, and
producer of the radio programsMove the Crowd on KPFK 90.7 FM

(23:56):
and This is Not a Drill on KBLATalk 1580. She's a recognized
expert on race, gender, classand social movements and is also
the 1st Muslim to run for thevice presidency. I invited
doctor Abdullah to talk to usfor a post election special
because I wanted to hear abouther experience on the campaign

(24:18):
trail to get her take on theoutcome of the election and
learn what activists can do tofurther resist the deterioration
of our rights. Doctor MolinaAbdullah, thanks so much for
joining us. Welcome.

Dr. Melina Abdullah (24:33):
Thank you so much for having me.

Congratulations on your run for vice presidency.
It's so amazing that you didthat. How are you feeling after
having been on the campaigntrail?

Well, I thought I would get to take a
nap after November 5th. Thathasn't happened yet. I organized
with Black Lives MatterGrassroots, and we have the,
motto, vote and organize. And sogiving the outcome of the
election both locally,statewide, and nationally, We've
had a lot of organizing to do,and so it feels like just as

(25:10):
much work now as it was when wewere in the midst of the race.

Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine, and I could even
see how it might even feel likemore work now. What are your
thoughts on how the electionplayed out?

Well, I live in Los Angeles, so I have a
a lot of different feelings.When we talk about the
presidency, you know, there'ssome complications around it.
Right? That it is hugelyrevealing that the vast majority
of white people voted for DonaldTrump. I think it's telling

(25:45):
about how deep racism is in thiscountry.
And what I mean by that is youcannot, not be a racist and cash
your ballot for a blatant avowedracist like Donald Trump. So
that's 70 something percent ofwhite people, including 60
something percent of white womenwho cast their ballots from the

(26:07):
for Donald Trump, I think, tellon themselves that they are
racist. There there's no gettingaround it. They're they're
racist. They're whitesupremacists.
At the same time, I think theDemocratic Party strategy was a
failed strategy, at least interms of winning, but it also
told us a lot about who theDemocratic Party is. That the

(26:29):
Democratic Party didn't run acampaign that was serious.
Right? What did the kids say?They were so unserious.
They were so unserious that theythought it was good enough to
trot out making Thee Stallionand Little John and, you know,
Gorilla who I'd never even heardof until she came on the stage
and

J. Lo and Beyonce and Taylor Swift.

Right. And the implication was that we
should vote for her because ofVibes. Right? But I think the
truth is that we're not votingfor a president who arms Israel.
We're not voting for a presidentwho refuses to even discuss what
real reparations looks like forblack people.

(27:13):
We're not voting for a presidentwho won't raise the federal
minimum wage. And so those arethe things that I think lost the
Democratic Party, thispresidency. And, you know, I
wanna be real clear that theylost by themselves. It wasn't
third party candidates likeours. It was the Democratic
party's failed strategy andthat, you know, I think we

(27:35):
should also be outraged thatthey kind of demanded our vote
as if we owe it to them and theydon't have to earn it.

Yeah. I think you're right. Like, the sense of
entitlement there. You know, wementioned on previous episodes
that there wasn't even a policyplatform for a while after she
started her campaign. And thenwhen a policy platform came out,
it was so difficult todistinguish from the Republican
ticket.
And so I think you're right. Ithink they overestimated how

(28:02):
much likability would be afactor for Kamala Harris versus
people's real understanding ofwhat she intended to do with her
policy.

Right. And then she's gallivanting all
around the country with I don'tknow if y'all cuss on here, but
I wanna cuss with Liz Cheney.Like, what are you doing? You're
celebrating the endorsement of awar criminal like Dick Cheney.
Are you kidding me?
Right. And we're supposed tosay, okay, we're still gonna
vote for her. No. No. You'reshowing who you are.

(28:34):
You're showing who you are.

Exactly. And at the same time that for so many
people in the country, their redline was what's happening in
Gaza right now. And for her to,you know, not even address that,
she didn't even go to Dearborn,Michigan, which is the largest
Arab population in the u US orthe 2nd largest. Yeah. Those
things seem to be either somegross miscalculations or a sense

(28:57):
of entitlement in arroganceperhaps about what the majority
of Americans will accept.

Right. Refuse to let even one
Palestinian speaker on the stageat the DNC, you know, just kind
of laughed and smiled when shewas protest that should have
been an indicator. Everywhereshe went, there were free
Palestine protesters. And shetold them she started off by

(29:23):
telling people to shut up.Right?
Started off by telling people toshut up and then, you know, kind
of toned it down when thatdidn't play well, but never
addressed that this is a UStaxpayer funded genocide being
carried out on at least a 100000Palestinian people. Right? They

(29:44):
found the bodies of 50,000, butwe know that there's at least
double that buried under therubble.

And I think the other underestimation was that,
yes, everything you said aboutwhat's happening in Gaza and
that the majority of Americanscare. You know, I think that
they thought perhaps Americanswouldn't care. They wouldn't
care as much, given what theybelieve was at stake with Donald
Trump being her opponent.

Right. That's stupid to think that.
Right? Are you not payingattention to the fact that every
university in this country hasbeen in upheaval since, you
know, for the last 14 months?You'd have to just have your
eyes completely closed to notrealize what an issue it is that

(30:29):
we've been shutting down notonly university campuses, but
streets in every major city.
Right? What happened at theOscars? Right? That for her to
not pay attention, it was eithera game of chicken and that's
what it feels like. I dare youto vote for someone else or it
was just stupid.

(30:50):
And I think it was probably alittle bit of both, but mostly
the former. It was a game ofchicken and I think that was
offensive to many voters thatyou're not listening to us and
you're saying that I don't havea choice but to vote for you.
And that's why you saw somepeople not voting for top of
ticket. Some people voting for3rd party and some people

(31:11):
staying home altogether.

Right. And that's why I'm so happy that you
and doctor West ran because Ithink you all's platform is
actually what people want. Sowhy did you run and what was it
like being on the campaign trailas a vice presidential
candidate?

So I ran because doctor West invited me
to because I always said I wouldnever ever ever run for office.
I would never run for officebecause I prefer one of the
reasons why I was trying tostruggle to get on today is I
like to yell at electedofficials. Right? I like to

(31:51):
speak from my authentic voice. Idon't wanna have to tone it down
for political likability.
I don't want to have to mute whoI am even now kind of coming out
of the campaign space. One ofthe things that happened
recently is I haven't been ableto, talk about like silly things
that I like to talk about.Right? Because that's not not

(32:15):
that I was trying to be vicepresidential, but it it didn't
feel right given the campaign.Right?
So, you know, I I went on alittle diatribe last night about
how about my dating life. Iwouldn't have done that if I
were still running. Right. Or mynon existent dating life. Right.
I posted on Facebook. I wassitting on the couch wishing I

(32:36):
had somebody until I realizedthat if I did, I would have to
put on a bra. Right? Put on abra and brush my hair, and I
don't like doing those thingswhen I'm at home. Right?

Right. Right. But a good like, such a good
reminder that vice presidentialcandidates are humans too. You
know? And we have just regularhuman things.
So I shouldn't say we, but youhave regular human things going
on in your life andconsiderations. Right. Right.
But it's it's like such ademonstration of practicing your
politics. Did that influenceyour decision to run?

Well, what really made me run is I've been
deeply inspired by Cornel West,really my entire adult life.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it was just so I was inspired also by
his platform. So I was a hugewhen he announced he was
running, you know, I was all in.I was all in. And so when I was
invited to be his vicepresidential nominee, his
running mate, my heart soaredbecause I believe in truth,

(33:42):
justice, and love. I believe inthose policy pillars that have,
you know, full understandings ofwhat gender justice looks like
and doesn't just limit it toabortion rights, but talks about
things like period justice.
And, you know, when we talkabout gender justice, we're
talking about gender expansivejustice. That we're talking

(34:04):
about, yeah, the right toabortion, but also there's
economic questions thatsometimes force people to make
decisions that they might notwanna make. So there's an
obligation society has to say itshould really be your choice.
And if you choose to have achild, this world will take care
of it. Right?

Right.

And so for me, my decision to run really
was based on the beautifulcampaign that I'd never seen
exist anywhere else. And, then Ichecked in with my children and
my children were all in. Ichecked in with my mama and my
parents were all in, checked inwith my organizing community,

(34:48):
and they were all in. And that'swhat made the decision. So I
imagined that we would have anopportunity.
I heard the voice of CharlottaBass, who's the first black
woman to run for vice president.And, she said, win or lose, we
win by raising the issues. And Ihad these imaginings of really

(35:08):
traveling the country andgetting to speak about things
like gender justice about Iwanted to speak about what it
meant that we're abolitionistcandidates and what that means.
And, you know, summon in mamaHarriet Tubman in that
conversation that, you know,abolitionism isn't something to
be afraid of. It's something tobe hopeful Unfortunately, what I

(35:30):
didn't anticipate is how much ofthe work would have to be done
to gain ballot access.
So we got to spend much lesstime on the ideas we developed
and on the platform that we werebuilding and instead got really
sucked into having to challengethe corporate owned duopoly and

(35:51):
get on the ballot in the firstplace.

Yeah. And we talked with Rosa Clemente
earlier in the season and shetalked a bit about that too, how
that's such a challenge. Butwhat did you all hope to
accomplish in this election? Anddid you all accomplish what you
hoped? And then also just socurious to know about, like,
what you all see for the justicefor All Party going forward
because it is such a powerfulplatform and it really does

(36:15):
center justice for all.
And I believe so many people inthis country actually want that,
actually want what's included inyour platform.

Well, we accomplished some of what we
hope to accomplish which israising the issues right that I
believe we were instrumental inkind of amplifying voices that
came from the ground voicesaround free Palestine, around
ending a genocide, aroundstopping the funding of war
through US tax dollars. I thinkthat I never heard anyone speak

(36:48):
about how to not be asuperpower, but a nation among
nations is how doctor Westtalked about it. Right? I think
that we've done a good job ofbringing together folks. An
unintended, unanticipatedconsequence for me is as a black
Muslim.
We've seen a lot of comingtogether of Muslim community.

(37:08):
I've been in conversation withnon black Muslims a lot more
than I ever been. And, you know,for me, it was just a beautiful
kind of demonstration of whatUmmah, what Muslim community can
be. So we've accomplished someof that. There's so much more to
do.
So, you know, I think had we hadballot access, if that had been

(37:34):
a given and we just got intocampaign, we'd have been able to
do a lot more. And I thinkthat's the role of the Justice
for All party is that we have todisrupt the corporate owned
duopoly and we have to usher inreal democracy, the kind of
democracy that only comes whenyou have more options, viable

(37:56):
options on the ballot.

Yeah. 100%, and I think the majority of
Americans agree with you on thatbecause according to a recent
Gallup poll, 58% of Americansthat were polled believe that
the US needs a 3rd party becausethe major the 2 major parties do
such a poor job of representingthe American people. Does it

(38:18):
seem like more people were opento third party voting in 2024?
And what is it about yourpolicies that you think is
attractive to voters?

Yeah. I think more people are open to
3rd parties and 4th parties and5th parties. We should whole
have a whole plethora ofoptions. Right? That's what the
promise of democracy is.
That's not what we have. Right?That's not what we have. And,
you know, we haven't had moneyin this campaign. Right?

(38:48):
We haven't had very much moneyat all. And we're facing
opponents that have limitlessmoney. The new number that we
have is that the DemocraticParty spent at least $22,000,000
to keep us off the ballot.That's a lot of money. Right?
I mean, Kamala Harris raisedwhat a $1,000,000,000 in a
month. Yep. We raised for only afraction of that in the whole 17

(39:14):
month campaign. I think the newnumber is like we raised about a
$1,000,000 over the 17 monthperiod. That is not enough to
beat back, you know, what theyhave.
It's not enough to beat backwhat they have.

But it also says it also communicates, like, the
threat that they perceive youall as. Right? So

Yeah. No. Absolutely. That the Democratic
party belies its name. Right?
Like, they're the mostundemocratic party you can
imagine that they should wantmore options on the ballot, not
fewer.

Exactly. And I think it also, like,
demonstrates that they know thatthere is power in your policy
platform and that peopleactually are attracted to those
kinds of policies even thoughthey themselves are not willing
to entertain them.

Right. I think one of the beautiful
things so we haven't had moneyto run our own polls. Right? But
what we have had is, you know,we said this is a people powered
campaign. So our strategy is ifyou don't have money, and I'm an
organizer, if you don't havemoney, you use your people
power.
And so what we told all of ourfolks who were working with us,

(40:24):
who were inspired by us is, youknow, do whatever you want as
long as it's legal andrighteous. We're not going to
micromanage what you do. Andsome of our volunteers who we
call love warriors were doingreally incredible things. So
doctor Richard Rose, who's oneof the founders of the Justice
For All party in California, Youknow, a lot of his work to get

(40:48):
people to sign up for JusticeFor All Party included tabling
outside of homeless shelters.And he said, one of the people
who went with him, BrotherBillion, said, well, they said
we need to register 73,000people under justice for all in
California in order to havevalid access.
There's 60,000 unhoused peopleon the streets right now. So if

(41:13):
we can get all of them toregister, then there we go. And,
you know, we didn't get 60,000people to register. But I love
that Brother Billian and Doctor.Rose both knew that we have the
kind of platform that wouldresonate with unhoused folks.
Right? Brother Billion himselfsays he never he hasn't voted

(41:35):
since 1992 when he was dupedinto voting for President
Clinton. And, you know, thenClinton comes out with these
horrible policies that targetBlack people. And so he didn't
wanna vote after that. And we'rethe first time that he voted.
And so I think that we'reresonating because we're willing

(41:56):
to say things like housing canbe a universal right. Education
should be free. Forget the loanforgiveness. Right? There should
be loan forgiveness, but reallyit needs to be much more than
that.
It needs to be free in the firstplace so you don't have to take
out a loan. And that's pre kthrough PhD. Right? Right.

Right.

And so people are inspired by that.
And, you know, we also opened upour policy pillars and, like,
elicited ideas and said, well,what do you want? We've been in
conversation with Stopcop Cityand Stopcop Nation Organizers.
We've been in conversation withthose in Muslim communities who
want to absolutely end thegenocide and also are talking

(42:40):
about Muslim bans and thetargeting of Muslims in this
country and how do we push backagainst that. We are talking to
people again, my organizing homeis Black Lives Matter
Grassroots, and I know it's notpopular to still say black lives
matter, but forget that blacklives still matter.
Right? And we have to stand upagainst police abuse and stop

(43:03):
the expansion of policing andmilitarized policing. And so
those are all things that peopleweighed in on and helped us as
we developed our policy pillars.

Mhmm. And what are your thoughts on the role
that identity politics played inthis election? And to be clear,
you know, not just, like,marginalized identities, but
also white identity, male,straight, Christian, cisgender,
etcetera.

Well, white people showed us again that
they're deeply racist. Right?White people, they're the only
group who voted for Trump in themajority. I think it's offensive
that the Democratic party kindof was trying to shame black
voters into voting for KamalaHarris as if black men who
didn't vote for Kamala Harris,it was a demonstration of their

(43:54):
misogyny when I don't think itwas. I think that the black men
who didn't vote for KamalaHarris didn't vote for Kamala
Harris because she didn't givethem a policy platform that they
believed it.
Right? And even though blackpeople supported her more than
any other group, black womenfirst followed by black men, It
doesn't mean that there wasn'tsome skepticism and some

(44:17):
disillusionment with what wasput forward. And so identity
politics was exploited, I think,by the Democratic Party, but
also identity politics played areal role in the white
supremacist vote for DonaldTrump.

Yeah. Yeah. So the Justice for All's party
policy platform is reallyinspiring. One of the things
that I think about a lot is, howdo we let go of what we think of
as normal? For example, thingslike health care tied to your
job or this idea of, like,endless wars, which is actually
pretty normal in the US, or abloated budget for the police.

(44:58):
How do you persuade people tomove beyond our survival mindset
to one that actually centerscare and thriving when it comes
to supporting policies thatwould actually have a positive
effect on our day to day lives?

Well, what I think is really beautiful
about this campaign is it's tiedto movement. Right? I don't
think any campaign cycle isenough to move people. It has to
be constant organizing, right?It has to be that we're sowing
seeds constantly in order tomove people along.
And I think this campaign, myorganizing work, and then of

(45:37):
course, Doctor. West decades ofwork in things around things
like ending genocide and freePalestine even before, you know,
last year's most recentiteration set the stage for it.
So we're not just introducingthese ideas to people for the
first time and then intend to goin the House on November 6th.

(45:59):
This is connected to movement.So we understand that electoral
politics are but one form of theway in which we empower people.
It's one tool in our toolbox,but it's not the only tool. So
you know, if you think aboutlike Adrienne Maree Brown saying
that you can only move at thespeed of trust, Well, trust is

(46:21):
built over time. And so one ofthe things we've been able to do
is because we've both been and,of course, Doctor. West having
decades more in the work than Ido. Right?
But we've both been on theground for a very long time and
understand where movement isgoing. And it doesn't mean that
everybody's already there, butwe understand how to lay out

(46:45):
these ideas that don't comesolely from us. Remember, we
built our policy pillars inconversation with other
organizers and movement on theground. And so in doing so,
we're presenting these ideas andtrying to grow movement, trying
to make sure that people canplug in. Some people will plug

(47:06):
in for the first time throughthe campaign, but they'll stay
involved

as

a result of the work. I'll give an example.
1 of our love warriors, Eduardo,I got to meet him through the
campaign. He's Los Angelesbased. But every Wednesday as an
organizer with Black LivesMatter Los Angeles, we go and
protest the police associations,which are not unions and are our
avowed enemies.
Right? We protest outside ofwhat I call the Legion of Doom.

(47:35):
It's their headquarters. Right?Well, every Wednesday Eduardo is
with us.
He comes with us. He comes tothe organizing meetings and, you
know, he's part of the workbeyond electoral politics work
at this point. And that's whatwe're hoping to do, that there
is an electoral strategy, butit's part of a much larger

(47:55):
movement. Doctor. West alwaystalks about this being but a
moment in a movement.
It's a moment in a movement.

And that's such a smart strategy to base your
policy platform in movements andsocial movements. Because when I
look at your policy platform, Ican think of movements,
especially on the local levelaround all of those issues. And
so it it's smart to form a partyaround those issues almost as
like a could have, like, aunifying effect for those
smaller movements.

Right.

You know, activists have been expressing
that they feel like people arebeing coerced into voting for
genocide and continuedcomplacency, at least with the 2
mainstream parties. Do you thinkthat we can actually create
change without the discomfort ofrejecting the status quo?

No. That would be ridiculous. That those
are 2 opposite ideas. Right?Status quo and change.
Status quo means keeping whatyou have. Right? So you cannot
create change without disruptingthe status quo, and there'll be
backlash as a result of yourrefusal to go along with the

(49:03):
status quo. The questionbecomes, is what you envision as
change worth it? And for me, andI still can't speak about it too
deeply without crying, but I'm amother of 3 children.
And for me, I can't vote forgenocide. I just can't. I can't

(49:24):
vote for genocide. And, youknow, my children, my God, my
people, they won't allow me to.That it's a betrayal.
When I was first announced asCornel West running mate, this
sister who's in clergy, and Iwon't say her name, but she was
really excited about thecandidacy. And she said, you

(49:49):
know, I endorse you. She was atthe 1st fundraiser that someone
held for me was women, you know,all women. Right? And she was
there, and she was excited.
And then when Joe Biden steppedback and Kamala Harris was
announced, she texted me andsaid, I'm sorry. I got to go

(50:10):
with Kamala Harris. And I said,Okay. And I, you know, I was of
the feeling that we can'tcondemn especially the black
people who did that. Right?

Mhmm.

You should talk to them about why that's
not a good choice. Right? But wecan't condemn them. And so I
said, okay. And I just kind oflet her do her thing.
But yesterday we had aconversation. So she started
right after the election and alot of people did this. The day
after the election, I lost a1000 followers on Instagram. And

(50:46):
she, who I know, right, who'sbeen to these protests against
police associations, who saidthat she was inspired to do her
work because of Black LivesMatter work and the work that
many of us, including me, havedone, who calls herself an
abolitionist, who had been priorto Kamala Harris's announcement,
speaking out against genocide.She started what I deemed to be

(51:11):
trolling my page.
Right? Jumping in the commentsand saying really kind of
disrespectful things. And so,you know, I get back in the
comments because my my skin isnot that thin. Right? So I get
in the comments and I'm like,oh, that's what we doing now.
Wrong women trolling eachother's pages. Right? And then I

(51:32):
texted her and I was like, ifyou have something to say, say
it. You have my number. Right?
Mhmm. So she called me yesterdaymorning And we're on the phone
and she said, well, I don'tunderstand the strategy of 3rd
parties. And I'm thinking number1, you live in California. It's
not even that big a risk. Thestate was gonna go Democrat

(51:52):
anyway.
So you're not in a swing statewhere it even makes sense for
you to vote for Kamala Harris,like pragmatically. Right? But
2, your clergy who were speakingout against the genocide in
Gaza. And what? Because KamalaHarris went to Howard.
I went to Howard. Right? BecauseKamala Harris went to Howard and

(52:15):
can put up her pinky as can I?Right? That now the genocide
doesn't matter.
And she said to me, I understandthere's a genocide and all of
that, but I don't think weshould vote against democracy.
And that's what we got a lot of.

Mhmm.

Like people who completely set aside what
they said they believed in forthe vibes. Right? For the, you
know, nods to culture, not forsubstance. And I think that we
can't afford to betray ourvalues. And there's also the

(52:57):
proclaimed pragmatism

of

it all. Right? So some people will say,
well, it's easier to push theDemocrat than it is to push the
Republican. Both of them areavowed genociders. Kamala Harris
said, I stand unwaveringly onthe side of Israel.
And I hope that we can go backand reassess what it is we say

(53:20):
we believe in and see if ourvotes were in line with that.

Yeah. And I think also when people are
saying we have to vote, like, onthe side of democracy or protect
democracy, I think alsoconflated within that is my
comfort and my quality of lifeand my, you know, personal
freedoms. Right? I think peopleare we're also that's wrapped up
in democracy for people whenthey think about democracy in

(53:44):
the US, because democracy in theUS certainly does not translate
to democracy everywhere else inthe world as we can see by the
the current policy in Gaza.

Well, I think you said something really
important, Emily, and that'sthat it's also the comfort of
who you're voting for. Right?That it's uncomfortable to say
I'm voting for a 3rd party wheneverything has happened to try
to whip you into a frenzy ofexcitement around the Democratic
nominee or the Republicannominee. Right? To go against

(54:17):
what everyone is telling you todo is uncomfortable.
Mhmm. So that question ofcomfort that you're raising, I
think resonates on a whole lotof levels.

Definitely. And I think it would have been
really uncomfortable for a lotof people to have fully endorsed
a 3rd party candidate and thento have to live with the
potentially undesirable results,which I guess any of the results
really could have beenundesirable. But I think
particularly people are arereally grappling with the
results that we got with thiscurrent outcome.

Look, nobody was more relieved than me
when we saw the data that if youput all the 3rd party candidate
votes together, it stillwouldn't have won Kamala Harris,
the presidency. I was going,phew. Nobody can blame me
because I was prepared to takethe blame.

Right? Right. And I was happy that people did
that math early on so that, youknow, the major networks
couldn't even start to blame the3rd parties, you know, or even
start to blame, you know, blackfolks for not voting. So I was
happy that that math came outearly. Right.
That's right. That's right. Soalthough people can vote for
president in every state, weknow that voters in actually 6

(55:24):
swing states effectively decidewho becomes president, and we
definitely saw the swing statesin action in this election. So
but that's not democracy either.You know?
And most of us want things tochange so that we feel our votes
actually count, and we havehistorical precedent that things
can change. Like, we used tohave 3rd parties, and we used to

(55:45):
pick the VP in a different way.So how do we convince people
that we can keep changing thesystem to better serve our
needs?

Well, people don't even understand how
the current system works. Right?True. So to reveal the injustice
of the current system, you haveto show people. I mean, we do a
terrible job of civics training.
Right?

Right.

I mean, people, I think, have heard of
the electoral college, but don'treally understand. People don't
understand. I never and my PhDis in political science. Right?

Mhmm.

I never heard the term ballot access
until this last 7 months. I hadno idea. I thought I was really
doing something because Ihaven't voted for a Democrat for
president since '08. Right? So Ivoted.
I got caught up in kind of aheavier version of what just
happened with Barack Obama'scandidacy. Right? That that will

(56:46):
I am song came on in that littlevideo and everybody chanting,
yes, we can. And even though Iknew I believed in Cynthia
McKinney and Rosa Clemente, andI tell her this all the time
that I'm sorry. Right?
Because Rosa is my dear friend.Right? I did not cast my ballot
for what I believed in. Right? Icast my ballot for Barack Obama,

(57:08):
my California ballot for BarackObama.
And then he comes and he doeshis first term and there's
nothing in it for black peopleor working class people. And you
got, you know, drones, strikesand war and I'm going, what was
I doing? And I wasn't stupid. Ihad read the Audacity of Hope. I
knew that he was a neoliberal.

(57:30):
Right. I knew he wasn't, youknow, Malcolm X and Barack
Obama's clothing. Right? I knewthat, but I still cast my ballot
for Barack Obama. But after 08,I didn't do that again.
And I thought I was doingsomething when I would write in
Angela Davis for president.

Mhmm.

Not realizing that those write in
votes don't count unless yourcandidate is certified as a
write in candidate. So even if,you know, Angela Davis had
gotten millions of votes, shestill wouldn't be president.
Right? So this campaign hastaught me how closed this so

(58:10):
called democracy is and howfully bought this illusion of
democracy is, that it's whollyowned by capitalist corporate
interests, white supremacistinterests. And so we do need and
require a new system forelecting who leads us.

(58:31):
I don't know how many peoplehave ever even read Lani
Guinier's tyranny of themajority. But, you know, the
idea of ranked choice voting andproportional representation, let
alone undoing the electoralcollege. Why do we need an
electoral college? Right?

Well, that's tied to white supremacy. Right?
Absolutely. You know, it datesback to slavery.

Yep. Absolutely. And so what we have
to people are always shockedwhen we say, well, you know, the
Republican Party used to be a3rd party. And they're like,
wait, what? Right.
These weren't always the only 2parties and one of them used to
be a 3rd party. And then when Italked to them about my, my

(59:12):
oldest child is in South Africaand, they just had their
presidential elections earlierthis year and there were 10
viable candidates on thatballot. And how new is South
Africa as a democracy? Right?That's in my adulthood that
happens.
Right? Mhmm. And so how dare wecall ourselves the UIS call

(59:37):
ourselves a democracy when everyother nation in the world is
really out doing us,outperforming us in terms of
democracy and choice?

100%. And it's, you know, it's no secret that
we're living in deeply dividedtimes. Sometimes it feels like
there's so much going on aroundus that we're, like, we are
living in the eye of the storm,and it certainly we certainly
are living in the belly of thebeast. Almost everyone we talk
to acknowledges the tension, theanxiety, the despair that people

(01:00:07):
have around politics right now.It feels like something has to
give soon or this is, like,gonna break.
So you spent the last yearcampaigning across the country
and talking to people. Do youfeel like we're on the precipice
of something significant?

Dr. Melina Abdullah (01:00:23):
So let me be clear. We don't have no
money, so I didn't reallycampaign all across the country.
We did a lot of zooming and thensome flights on my Rapid Rewards
points on Southwest. Right? Wedidn't have I I thought, you
know, because we made the ballotin Alaska and I thought, oh,
well, at least go to the stateswhere we're on the ballot,

(01:00:46):
printed on the ballot.
And I was like, Alaska, here wecome. Nope. Didn't get to go to
Alaska. Right. Got to zoom onlywith Washington state.
I did get to go to Colorado andLouisiana, but Louisiana was
because I also have a childwho's at Southern University.
And so I, you know, was able tomove her in and then talk to

(01:01:06):
some people while I was there.So there is an interest in
expanding democracy. So the Zoomcalls did teach me something.
Right?
There is an interest inexpanding democracy. There is a
disease with the idea of havingto vote for a lesser of 2 evils

(01:01:29):
or evil heavy and evil light.Right? People don't like that.
Even the ones who voted forKamala Harris or and this is
where I think that it was reallyintellectually lazy for people
to say that the Black men whovoted for Donald Trump did so
because they were misogynists.
I know some of them. Some ofthem are people I organize with

(01:01:51):
and there's another one who'slike one of my dearest friends.
And I think that he didn't windup actually voting for him, but
he was considering voting forhim. Right? And I think that
they misunderstood because theyhad no desire to understand.
They only had the desire toshame. But the brothers that I
talked with who were eitherconsidering voting for Trump or

(01:02:13):
did actually vote for Trump, Thecomrade that actually voted for
Trump. His name is Kevin. Youknow, he didn't vote for Trump
because he believed in Trump. Hedidn't vote for Trump because he
doesn't like women.
He voted for Trump because hekept saying we got to make the
Democratic Party pay. Right? Andthat's what he saw nationally,

(01:02:34):
but also in California. Blackpeople are deeply wounded around
the legislative Black Caucus andtheir betrayal of Black
community and refusing to passreal reparations. That just
happened at the end of August.
And so, you know, this is whatComrade Kevin, you know, wound
up doing, but it wasn't a votefor the agenda of Donald Trump.

(01:02:58):
He just didn't see another. Hesaid that our, that we're not
gonna win. Right? So he waslike, well, what's the most
viable way of making theDemocrats pay?
And he's still my friend. I'mnot mad at him. Right? But this
is what they were talking about.Right?
That they were deeply upset. Andthis is not just Kevin, but

(01:03:19):
everyone that I talked with,especially Black men, are
angered around the notion thatwe don't have real choice. And
so I see, you know, blackpeople, black men included, but
the black women who voted forHarris, most of them tried to
justify why they were voting forHarris, but knew in their souls

(01:03:40):
it was wrong. I have a sisterwho lives in Georgia who, voted
for Harris, even though I'm hersister. Right?
But she, you know, Georgia wasone of those states that was up
for grabs. And I think she wouldhave voted for Cornel West and I
if she were still living inCalifornia. But she wound up
voting for Harris and stilldoesn't feel good about it. And

(01:04:02):
so I think Black people havealways been, I keep maybe Lani
Bonier's spirit is present, butLani Bonier wrote a book that
talks about black people as theminer's canary. Right?
And so, black people, eventhough we overwhelmingly voted
for Harris, we also are the mostcivically engaged people and the

(01:04:25):
people most likely to protest.And what I have seen and
witnessed and conversed withpeople about is how absolutely
upsetting and frustrating and italmost makes us feel impotent
that these are the two choicesthat are presented and we want

(01:04:46):
something more.

Emily Williams (01:04:48):
Yeah. Absolutely. 100%. I I agree with
you on that. You know, thefeeling of impotence and wanting
something more, but notbelieving that it's possible.
I think that's true for themajority of people in this
country. And I'm struck by yourconversation or, with brother
Kevin, your friend who voted forTrump, you know, partially
because it's like, I understandthe desire, like, the deep

(01:05:10):
desire to create accountabilityfor a party that continues to
ignore your community and takeyour community for granted
election after election afterelection. But do you think that
we need to move in a directionwhere we're actually becoming,
we're in community with peoplewho have different politics than
our own and trying to buildbridges to people of different

(01:05:32):
politics?

So I don't disagree with Kevin,
politically. Like, our politicsare 90% aligned. I think that
was the most ridiculous strategyin the world. Right? So we are
both anti genocide, you know,free Palestine.
We are both reparations overjust about everything. We are

(01:05:58):
both defund the police. We havethe same politics. I just think
his strategy was misguided.Right?
I'm not interested in buildingbridges with people who are so
politically out of line with methat it's a betrayal of my
values. Right? I'm notinterested in building bridges

(01:06:21):
with people who say middlefinger to Palestinians. Right?
And there are lots of folks whosay that.
I'm not interested in buildingbridges with people who aspire
to be predatory capitalists. I'mnot interested in that. I am
interested in havingconversations about what is the
best strategy and buildingtowards that strategy. So the

(01:06:46):
reason Kevin is still my friend,and I'll probably see him at our
organizing meeting on Sunday, isI think that we can have
conversation about why that's abad strategy. Don't do that
again, Kevin.
Right. And we're not going to dothat with the California
legislature either. We're notgoing to go for the Republican
just because they're challengingthe legislative Black Caucus

(01:07:11):
that, betrayed the Blackcommunity. Maybe the answer is
to primary the skin folk whoain't kin folk. Right?
And get one of our own in. Ibelieve the strategy for the
presidency is to get such a massof folks behind a Cornell West
campaign that we really areviable and we really do pose a

(01:07:33):
threat and not just a threatbecause they don't want our
message out a threat because weare an electoral threat. Right?
And so I think buildingstrategies together, is
important in 7 months for me,which is the length of time I
was in the campaign, wasn'tenough time to do that. And we
didn't have the infrastructureto do that.

(01:07:55):
Right. That there was with nomoney. That means there's no
campaign staff. And when youtalk about volunteers, you can't
force volunteers to do stuffbecause they got jobs and, you
know, children to look after andall of that and community to
build. And so, we didn't havethe kind of infrastructure that

(01:08:16):
we needed.
Hopefully, as we build thisparty, Justice For All party,
we'll be able to build up someresources over time. We'll be
able to capitalize on all thepeople power we actually have
and do that over time. And thenwe can build strategy that's
much more aligned with ourbelief systems.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. And I like that focus
on strategy. Okay, Melina.
Get us excited for your nextrun-in 2028.

No. No. What? No. I have no political
ambition, but it doesn't have tobe me.
So I do believe in an electoralstrategy. And I think it's
really important. You know, oneof the things that happened
during this campaign ispolitically the candidates we
were most aligned with wereClaudia and Corina. And I think

(01:09:10):
part of the reason we were mostaligned with them is like
Doctor. West and I, they're alsoorganizers.
Right? So over the next 4 years,but also in the previous prior
to any of us even thinking aboutrunning, we had been in
organizing community together. Ithink my role and what I

(01:09:30):
appreciate doing and where myheart is, is really organizing.
And I think that we allrecognize, and I don't want to
speak for Claudia and Karina'scampaign, but I think that what
they've demonstrated is theyalso recognize that there's an
electoral strategy that has tobe part of a much larger
movement. So I wanna continueand I'm committed to continuing

(01:09:51):
to be a part of a much largermovement, recognizing that
electoral politics is one toolin it.
I hope we can find people to runat the local level and state
level, and we can talk aboutballot access. There's a lot of
possibility around fusion votingand using some of these smaller

(01:10:12):
parties that do have ballotaccess. And now Justice For All
party does have valid access ina few states. How do we run
people in those places? Andthose people who run don't have
to be me.
I, again, don't have anyambition to run for office. I
like what I do. I love gettingin the classroom. And I love,

(01:10:34):
again, I'm just coming back fromcity council meeting where I get
to flip off the new police chiefnominee who I think was just
confirmed. Right?
I like doing that. I like doingthat.

Okay. I hear that. So let's just say that
there's another young person whocomes in and runs as a candidate
on the Justice For All platform.Let's say that they're
successful and that theyactually win. How do you advise
them during their time, let'ssay, in the White House?
How would our country lookdifferent after 4 years of

(01:11:09):
having a justice for allcandidate in the house of the
people?

So my grandmother, like many
grandmothers, used to say, youhave to know not just who you
are, but whose you are. Right?And any justice for all party
candidate belongs to the people.Right? We don't want any
candidates who are runningbecause they want, you know, a
title in front of their name orthey want to go down in history

(01:11:36):
books.
We want them to run because theyknow that's a way to make
meaningful change and usher in aplatform that's really a
people's platform. I'mwitnessing here, and I don't
mean to sideline it, but part ofwhat's happening here in Los
Angeles with the naming of thisterrible police chief who is
commanding a salary of about ahalf a $1,000,000 a year when he

(01:12:00):
already gets taxpayer dollars inretirement funds of 270,000 a
year. Right? And then another30,000 a year in an additional
pension. So he's gonna costtaxpayers 800,000 a year.
That said, we could expect thatfrom Jim McDonnell. Right? Jim

(01:12:21):
McDonnell is terrible. He is thedefinition of what policing is.
He's a new millennial slavecatcher.
But who named him Police Chief?Karen Bass. Karen Bass, who was
a progressive. Karen Bass, whoknows better, who was a

(01:12:43):
community organizer. But then itgot in her head that she should
run for office.
She runs for state legislature,becomes the first black woman
speaker of the assembly, andthen runs for Congress, and then
throws her name in the hat forconsideration as Biden's vice

(01:13:04):
president and finally runs formayor and wins as the first
woman mayor of the city of LosAngeles, 2nd largest city in the
country. Right? She forgot notjust who she is, but whose she
is. She no longer belongs to thepeople. Right?

(01:13:25):
She belongs to her donors. Iwrote the first scholarly pieces
on her. And she used to be myvery, very good friend. She used
to talk about what it meant thatshe was a red diaper baby. She
used to talk about those thingsand now she is beholden to her
donors so much so that sherefuses to speak out against

(01:13:48):
genocide.
That she's actuallycriminalizing the young people
who dare to speak out. She'sactually passing city ordinances
that make it illegal to protestfor life in Palestine. So my
advice to anybody running foroffice that you have to
constantly remain grounded withthe people to whom you belong.

(01:14:12):
That's also my advice toorganizers. I don't believe in
independent organizers.
Right? So if you want to see whobetrays community and could be
called what do they call them?Grifters. Right? It's people who
don't have an organizingcommunity to answer to.
If you don't answer to anybody,then you will be betrayers of

(01:14:33):
the people that goes for electedofficials. That goes for
organizers. That goes foreverybody. And so my greatest
piece of advice is you gottabelong to the community rather
than be in it for your ownambition.

Yeah. Definitely. Thank you so much
for giving us that wisdom to endwith. And doctor Abdullah, this
has been wonderful. You know,we're so proud of you for having
run and for continuing thismovement with the justice for
all party and really giving usthat platform to work with.
I know that people are gonnagravitate towards that policy

(01:15:08):
platform in the years to come aswe put up alternatives to what
we will inevitably see play outin the White House over these
next couple of years. So, again,thank you so much, and we were
just we're so happy to have hadyou.

Thank you so much for having me.

Wow. Can you imagine running for vice
president in this most recentelection? It's truly amazing and
admirable how Doctor. Abdullahhas lived her politics over the
last 7 months. She's a realorganizer.
Thanks to doctor Molina Abdullahfor this important urgent and
critical conversation. Andthanks again to Madiba Denny of

(01:15:47):
Balls and Strikes for joining usearlier. We started with the
lightning round, so I'm gonnaend with a lightning round of my
takeaways and insights from ourconversations. I don't know if
you know this, but theRepublican Party was once a
third party. They only becameviable when Lincoln abolished
slavery.
That means that abolition iswhat allowed them to become more

(01:16:11):
viable and continue to winelections. So the justice for
all parties policies are not farfetched. Focuses like racial
justice, ending wars,immigration justice, LGBTQIA
rights and more are based on thesocial movements already
happening right now across thecountry. People are listening.

(01:16:34):
People believe it's possible onthe local level, and it's going
national.
More of us need to believe it'spossible, and we can make it
possible by joining themovements we believe in. We are
so grateful for all our gueststhat joined us this season. But
most of all, we wanna thank you,our listeners, and everyone who

(01:16:56):
supported, reviewed, and sharedour podcast with their friends,
families, and neighbors. And ifyou haven't already shared the
podcast with everyone you know,you still have time. Your
support this season and yourcontinued support means the
world to us, and it's animportant part of the work that
helps shape the democracy thatwe deserve.

(01:17:17):
So thank you. And until nextseason, see you in the streets.
Beyond voting is hosted by me,Emily Williams. Keisha TK Doutaz

(01:17:38):
is our executive producer.Kristen Bennett is our producer.
And this episode was written byKristen Bennett and me. Our
sound designer and engineer isManny Faces. Marketing is
courtesy of Fabian Mickens, andour music is provided by Motion
Array. Special thanks to my teamat the Arcus Center For Social
Justice Leadership, Quentin,Crimson, Tamara, Winter, and

(01:18:03):
Cara. Beyond voting is aproduction of Filo's Future
Media.

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