ICE, DOGE, and Democracy on the Brink (with Karen Attiah)

Episode Transcript
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Emily Williams (00:00):
Welcome back to Beyond Voting season two.

(00:03):
Whether you're brand new to theshow or you tuned in last
season, we are so happy to haveyou here. Last season, we
brought you thought provokingconversations with political
candidates, activists, andscholars, exploring topics from
the creeping threat of fascismto how to get started in radical
organizing, all in an effort todrive home our guiding belief

(00:25):
that healthy democracies reallydo require more than just
voting. And this season, we'reso excited to bring you even
more of those same in-depthconversations with a stellar
lineup of guests that I can'twait to introduce you to. Season
two starts now.

(00:55):
I'm Emily Williams, executivedirector of the Arcus Center for
Social Justice Leadership atKalamazoo College. Welcome to
Beyond Voting. This podcast isrooted in our conviction that
democracy requires moreparticipation than just voting.
It's up to all of us to takeaction if we want to see real

(01:17):
change. We'll featureconversations with journalists,
activists and scholarsdiscussing the state of our
country's institutions, ongoingsystems of oppression and, most
importantly, how We the Peoplecan take critical actions in
pursuit of true equity andjustice.

(01:38):
Okay, let's not beat around thebush, you all. The last ten
months have been a lot. We'veseen disturbing and often
heartbreaking scenes playing outin our communities, with masked
ICE officials detaining ourneighbors, our colleagues, and
our family members. We've seenthe president use the power of
the executive office to directfederal agents to arrest,

(02:01):
detain, and deport academics,researchers, and workers who are
here legally for merely speakingabout their political beliefs.
The military has been sent intoU.
S. Cities to quell politicalprotests and punish majority
Democratic cities that haveamnesty policies for immigrants.
Our federal institutions haveundergone massive regulatory

(02:23):
changes, often with disastrousimpacts as a result of the Elon
Musk led Department ofGovernment Efficiency, or DOGE.
We've all been confronted withincreasingly grim political
rhetoric, a lot of it comingdirectly from official
government channels andprominent figures in the
administration, some of whichhas resulted in deadly violence.

(02:44):
And that's only the beginning.
Frankly, these changes and theunprecedented speed at which
they've occurred feeloverwhelming for many of us. I
don't think it's anoverstatement to say that our
democracy is in immediatecrisis. But just how bad is it?
How did we get here so quickly?And if we're in such dire

(03:06):
straits with no one on thehorizon coming to save us, how
do we save ourselves?
Our guest today is award winningeditor, journalist and author
Karen Attia. Karen is the formerGlobal Opinions editor for The
Washington Post, where her workexplored the intersections of

(03:26):
race, culture, gender, andinternational affairs. She's
also a frequent contributor tobroadcast media, with
appearances on CNN, BBC, andNPR. Karen's also the author of
Say Your Word, Then Leave, ariveting account about the life
and assassination of Saudijournalists and her friend and

(03:48):
Washington Post colleague, JamalKhashoggi. We spoke with Karen
back in late July, only weeksbefore The Washington Post, an
institution she'd worked at foreleven years, fired her.
And she joined the more than400,000 Black women who've been
pushed out of the workforce justthis year alone. The Washington

(04:09):
Post took issue with socialmedia comments she made while
condemning political violence inthe wake of Charlie Kirk's
killing. In a substack postaddressing her firing, Karen

wrote (04:20):
The post accused my measured Blue Sky post of being
unacceptable, gross misconduct,and of endangering the physical
safety of colleagues, chargeswithout evidence, which I reject
completely as false. They rushedto fire me without even a
conversation, claimingdisparagement on race. This was
not only a hasty overreach, buta violation of the very

(04:41):
standards of journalisticfairness and rigor the Post
claims to uphold.
When we caught up with Karen,she helped us examine the
catastrophic impact of the Dogecuts, the ongoing ICE
deportations and raids, and thepower of an educated populace in
the fight against fascism. Butwe couldn't just leave it there.
We also had to get her thoughtson the ways we can all come

(05:03):
together to resist the harmfulpolicies enacted by the current
administration, the power ofradical empathy, and what it
would take implement her visionof a radical political imaginary
moving forward. Karen, we're sohappy to have you. Welcome to
Beyond Voting.

Karen Attiah (05:21):
I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me,
Emily.

Yes, thank you. So by the time this airs, you
will have completed your firstsemester of Resistance Summer
School. Congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah. Would you talk a little bit about like
what it was initially supposedto be and how it eventually
became something open to thepublic instead of a course at
Columbia?

Right, right. So, as you read in your intro, my
background is actually more ininternational affairs. So I went
to Columbia. I went to theSchool of International and
Public Affairs. And as someone,you know, I'm a Black woman.
I'm a daughter of immigrantsfrom Ghana and Nigeria, very
keenly aware that this so calledworld order put Black people,

(06:08):
Africans, at the bottom. I wasobviously very keenly aware of
race and the social andinternational, constructs of
that. But when I got to Columbiaand was a student, I was very
frustrated with how that wasnever explicitly talked about.
We were all supposed to, in thebackdrop of the UN, supposed to
just kind of behave as if thesestructures were natural and

(06:31):
normal, we were being trainedto, basically to perpetuate the
same sort of inequalities, in myopinion. So I got a chance to
teach at my old school and todesign a course that basically
brought all these thoughtstogether in terms of race.
How this process of creatingracial constructs has been a
mediated one, been a deliberateone, has been not just through

(06:52):
force and violence, but throughimages and through headlines and
through film and all of that. SoI designed this to create the
course that I never had as astudent. And yes, got to teach
for only one semester. That wasduring the time of the protests
over Gaza, the encampments, andI was very vocal in my stance

(07:16):
being against what I see as agenocide against the
Palestinians perpetrated byIsrael. I was very vocal about
that and very vocal aboutprotecting students' rights to
protest that while I was atColumbia.
So, taught the course, verypopular, actually over enrolled.
And then a few months later, Iwas told that my funding would
not be renewed for reasons thatto this day, I still don't know.

(07:40):
But I also do know. Do you knowwhat I mean?

Right, I do.

We get it. You get me. Yes. Yes. In this time when
I already knew that not onlyteaching about race was also
systemically excluded anyway,right?
But that we were in anenvironment where teaching about
race was being actively underwhether it's CRT, DAI, whatever
the point was, that teachingabout race and bringing these

(08:10):
dark, not only history, butthese dark arrangements that we
have today up was being activelysuppressed politically. I always
kind of knew that I was doingsomething that was a bit risky,
right? Even if it was atColumbia, but I did it anyway.
Yeah, yeah. That's so great.
Only for one course. So whenthey canceled the course,

(08:33):
someone said it would be astrategic challenge for you to
go public about what they did toyou. And so I sat on it for a
couple months. And it wasn'tuntil I saw the institutional
capitulation by Columbia to theTrump administration betraying
the very values that I wastaught at Columbia, that I was

(08:53):
like, you know what? Fuck this.
Fuck this shit. Why should mysyllabus, why should they tell
me that I can't teach? Whyshould it be sitting in the
closet gathering dust when thisis something that not only
belongs to me, but needs to beout there? I don't need to worry
until 2027, until the stormpasses, and then some committee

(09:17):
is going to approve me to onlyteach 18 people because that's
just this arbitrary limit.Right?

Right.

So, yeah, a couple of months ago, I just put on
Blue Sky. Like, hey, guys. I'vegot this course and I taught at
Columbia. Would anyone beinterested in? Honestly, Emily,
I would have been satisfied.
I if 20 people said yes, I wouldhave been like yes, right? Like
yeah, let's go. Like, honestly,this is something I I would

(09:44):
teach under a tree. Yes. Youknow?
But then 2,000 people said theywere interested. And then sold
out in forty eight hours, 500people. Wow. And plus
scholarships as well. So they'recompletely community funded.
And it's just turning somethingthat was like a cancellation

(10:05):
into a real blessing in acommunity. And, yeah, this is an
Ivy League course, you know, myRight. Yeah, this is, this is,
I'm not diluting it. This iswhat I was teaching at the
graduate level at Columbia, youknow, race and the history of
media and helping people tounderstand this moment today.
This is what I say in all myclasses.
I'm like my class. For all ofyou who are watching the news,

(10:28):
are watching what's happeningwith this administration, are
watching the capitulation, theice rates, all of that stuff.
Unfortunately, there has been apath that has gotten us here in
this class. Going to help youanswer that question. How did we
get here?

Right, and it's such a testament to it shows
that with the overwhelmingenthusiasm about the course and
that people are taking it andtraveling from far distances to
be in class with you just showshow hungry people are for this
knowledge, you know? And it alsoaffirms for people that, like,
there is something more going onbehind the scenes, you know?
Like, people can see that andknow intuitively that something

(11:01):
is happening. And it sounds likeyour course is then also giving
them an analysis in the historyof how that's come to be. It's
also, I would say, like a reallypowerful statement to Columbia.
Like, Okay, you might be able topush me out, but you can't shut
me down. This information isstill going to be circulating in
the world. So that's awesome.

Right. But, you know, look, it's bigger than
Columbia, right? And I think forme, even teaching at Columbia
exposed imbalance andexploitation. So for me, it was
also like, well, why shouldstudents have to go into debt
just to listen to me? That's thevery And essence of why should
adjuncts be paid way less thanthey're worth?

(11:43):
Where is all that money going?And I've said before that a lot
of institutions are turning intoinvestment hedge funds with a
little bit of education on theside. And they've become not
education systems, butcredentialist institutions more
interested in credentials,right? So for me, this is also
jailbreaking that system thatprobably should have been

(12:05):
challenged a long time ago. Butnow it's like, yeah, can teach
freely.
I can actually probably teach insome ways more rigorously
without having fear that somedonor somewhere is not gonna
like what I'm doing and pull theplug. Right. And also it's a

(12:25):
community of people who justreally love to learn. They're
not there because they have tobe. They're like, Karen, chop
the syllabus.
Chop the syllabus. They're like,give us the books. And I love
it. I love it. It is I summerschool love that.
I'm like, y'all like, yeah,we're gonna we're gonna have our
we're gonna have our notebooks.I'll I'll drop my my back to

(12:46):
school. Get ready with me withthe pens and pencils, you know,
that I that I like to use. So Ithink a lot of my mentality
towards this is like, what doeselite education even mean? This
idea of like, why do we needthese institutions?
You know, granted, of course.

Well, and I think it's interesting too,
because it's like also, know,it's a fine line because this
administration also is kind ofthriving on some anti
intellectualism and kind ofvilifying higher education
institutions. But I think whatyour model shows us is that
certainly there's room forcommunity based education that's
accessible to all, right?

I mean, that's just room. That's the
foundation. That's the basis.That's how all of these places
started. It started ascollectives of people coming
together, knowing that aneducated populace is an
empowered one and is one that ismore resistant to fascists and
dictators and those who wouldwant to kill us.

(13:46):
So

Thank you. And so let's get into that a little
bit because we know that that'sat the root of it. Right? So
when Trump got inaugurated, hesigned an unprecedented amount
of executive orders. I guess ifwe're going on previous
administrations, we would haveassumed that there would be more
time between signing orders andthen actually putting them in
place.
There's been ICE raids, youknow, from LA to New York,

(14:10):
diversity, equity, and inclusionrollbacks, and now this so
called Big Beautiful bill, andmany other things. From your
perspective, why are all thesechanges being enacted at the
same time? What's your take onthe breakdown of democracy and
the lack of the checks andbalances that are currently
being enforced?

So being a journalist and being in
Washington during Trump onepoint zero, even then, seeing
the breakdown, obviously, innorms and rhetoric and all of
that, I think, for mepersonally, and for a lot of
people who are willing to speakthe truth, we always feared that

(14:49):
the combination of Trump'sincredibly powerful cult of
personality was hampered a bitby the fact that he had these
clowns around him. Like, right?Like, I'm thinking of Corey
Lewandowski. He had these almostcartoonish racists around him,
right? Fast forward to Trump twopoint zero, and it's very clear

(15:12):
that they came in with astrategy.
They came in way more organized.So I spent the interim period, a
good chunk of the Biden years,let's say, reporting in Texas.
You know, remember those schoolboards' elections and parents
talking about CRT and changingcurriculums, banning books. What

(15:35):
I saw in Texas in terms of thetactics, a lot of the tactics
included speed. It includedpassing rule changes literally
under cover of knights, right?
And doing things so fast with somuch money and having a blitz
around it that the left wereblindsided and caught off guard

(15:55):
that they didn't expect. So thathas, for me at the local level
and in a red state, that was theplaybook building even back in
2022 or so. What happens withthat is it is extremely hard to
challenge. So the response isusually, oh, we'll take them to
court. We'll sue.
But by then, the damage hasalready been done. So fast
forward to what I see and whatthey've done this year already

(16:19):
is I see a lot of that playbookin action. It is shock,
overwhelm, past executiveorders, literally take the keys
away from workers, shut offaccess to their computers
immediately. And they know thatthe response, particularly from
Liberals from now, is, You can'tdo that. We will see you in
court, which is a process thatwill take months, right?

(16:42):
But by then, a lot of damage hasalready been done. People are
either losing their jobs,contracts being canceled,
people's paychecks being cutoff. So I think the strategy,
this is what it looks like touse power. Right. By any means.
And we're realizing that ourdemocracy is only as strong as
people are willing to enforcethe rules behind these

(17:06):
arrangements, these agreementsthat we have about how to
conduct, our government and oursociety. So not only has he come
in with a better team, not onlyhas he come in with, the real
brains behind this are nothousehold names. There are
advisors who have very dangerousworldviews. In fact, again,
going back to education, whohave said outright, J. D.

(17:28):
Vance, let's say, has said thathe believes that Harvard, these
places of higher education, thattheir endowments are basically
resources for the enemy, and sothat they need to go after their
money. They're thinking in termsof war, this is war.

Yep, 100 yep, percent, yeah.

And so what we're seeing is force, is starvation
economically of these programs,of people's paychecks, of
destroying departments. Andagain, it's happening under
Trump, but this has been whatthe right has wanted to do for
decades. And just finally foundthe right Messiah to carry out

(18:09):
their divine mission.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What does this then say
about presidential authority forthe next four years?

We're in a scary ass place. Honestly, I mean, for
those who have been payingattention, we've been seeing a
long creep of the powers of theexecutive being expanded over
the years, not just sort ofexecutive orders, but more and
more power being concentrated inthe executive branch. What is
frightening about this time aswell is the lockstep almost of

(18:42):
the executive and the SupremeCourt, and the bypassing of
Congress on many of thesethings, right? Dismantling a
number of these departments. Somuch of this, technically, is
supposed to go towardscongressional review and
approval.
But instead, we have a king. Andit's very dangerous regardless

(19:04):
of party. And I'm not, again,I'm not trying to say before
people come for me, I'm nottrying to say that Obama was on
the same level. I'm not tryingto say that. But what I'm saying
is there were warning signsalready that there was too much
power being concentrated in theexecutive.

And

so it's part of the reason why, even under the
Biden administration, again,let's take Gaza, the
authorization of weapon sales toIsrael bypassing Congress,
basically bypassing the lawsthat we already have for vetting
weapon sales to countries thatare credibly accused of
committing human rights underthe Leahy law, it's actually by

(19:43):
law that was being circumventedunder the Biden administration.
And yes, people are gonna comefor me and say, No, but I'm
saying that this norm, thisprecedent was already in the
making before. Now we have amuch more virulent, dangerous
arrangement in the White House.

Yeah. Yeah. No. I agree with that. And I think
also just the complete disregardfor any rule order and really
complete disregard for people'slives and particularly American
citizens.
I mean, I think one could arguethat the Biden administration
bypassing Congress to provideweapons to Israel, that also is
about perhaps a disregard forhuman life. But this

(20:26):
administration seems that theirdisregard for human life is
actually much more brazen andempowered, actually. And so I
want to talk about one thingthat was really destructive. So
Elon Musk laid the foundationwith massive cuts through DOGE,
you know, the Department ofGovernment Efficiency. Not to
mention the stealing of our datawithout consent, Right?

(20:48):
And it seemed apparent that ElonMusk's role or his appointment
to this role was actuallyillegal. But, you know, they
justify Doge with this narrativeof, like, weeding out waste,
fraud, and abuse, right, whichwas really not present at the
scale that they'd claimed. Socan you tell us, what did Doge
actually do? Have we alreadyfelt the impacts of that, and

(21:09):
what might be the futureimpacts?

Gosh, I mean, even just from a social level,
sitting here talking to you fromWashington, D. C, I think we
have yet to feel the economicimpact on what this even means
for this city. We realize thatthe narrative that has been
pushed particularly by the rightis that government workers are
lazy, that they're wasteful,that inherently you must be

(21:34):
coasting by. But I think whatAmericans are about to feel,
particularly as we have multiplecrises, whether it's we're
already seeing this with stormseason, in terms of FEMA
emergency response all of thatcomes from, obviously,
government workers. Another partof this, particularly from these
sort of social racial aspects,is that, particularly in

(21:57):
Washington, D.
C, a large number of federalemployees, this is how the Black
middle class was built largelyin this country, was through
federal workforce employment,right? So the thing about Doge,
and again, having been workingin Washington, having been, in a
way, observing what largely kindof had been almost like a gulf,

(22:19):
like a bit of a rift betweenSilicon Valley and Washington.
I'm sure a lot of peopleremember Mark Zuckerberg
testifying in front of Congress,and these old lawmakers clearly
having no idea what he's talkingabout, being super disconnected.
Like, there was this sense thatWashington was too bureaucratic,

(22:40):
too wasteful, just out of touchwith big tech. And now, very
quickly, I think in a way thatis stunning, Doge coming in, and
again, back to Messiahs, ElonMusk, having his own sort of
come to racist Jesus momentwhere he goes from being largely
kind of apolitical, and even noteven just apolitical, even kind

(23:02):
of a almost a bit of a figure ofimagining a better, cleaner
energy sort of world, going fromthat to now actively promoting
supremacist theories andbuilding anime girlfriends on X
capturing media and now thisdeep alliance between tech and a

(23:24):
certain vision of governmentthat, yes, disregards lives, but
doesn't seem to care fordemocracy, doesn't seem to care
for processes, doesn't seem tocare for what people actually
want, because a lot of this isunpopular.
We're speaking about all this. Alot of this people disapproved.
Like the polls are showing that.Like this is not what people
want. The problem with tech, andI'm glad you said the word

(23:44):
consent.
We're seeing a culture of, ifyou agree that democracy is
ruled by the consent of people,that these people are supposed
to be our representatives,they're supposed to serve us.
But instead, what we're seeing,particularly with tech, and take
ChatGPT, take these AI LLMs thatare being forced upon us,

(24:07):
consent is inconvenient. So dogegoing in, they're putting in
keywords, anything that has todo with diversity. It doesn't
matter if it means likediversity of being types in, it
doesn't matter. It's for them,the sense that it's getting
done.
It doesn't matter whose livesget destroyed. It doesn't

(24:28):
matter. It's something that isvery deeply and almost
spiritually incompatible withthis idea of consent and of
input. Right? And so we'realready seeing the disruption of
USAID.
Millions of people who hadaccess to lifesaving treatments
now cannot get them. People aredying. They will die. Yep. It's

(24:49):
marrying how do you create ademocracy that is essentially,
as we say, a necropolitic, wherethey get to decide who lives and
who dies more efficiently andwithout input and consent.

100%. Because by the time that people are feeling
the full impacts of the Dovishcuts, there will also be the
cuts from the big beautifulbill, so called, right, which,
you know, are we then able tosay this was Doge and this was
the big beautiful bill, right?So they also are really dodging
accountability here. Just if wecan really quickly so people

(25:22):
understand, because I don'tthink people understand. What
did Elon Musk do with our data?
And why did he want it in thefirst place?

Well, what did he do with our data? Well, we are
still not completely sure, butthey definitely were looking at
access to what employees weresaying with tax data. It's not
just a marrying of Iran hasbusiness interests with the US
government, obviously withStarling, with contracts and all

(25:50):
of that. This is

Yep. And now Grok having a contract with the
Department of Defense, right?

Right.

And Grok has an explicitly white supremacist
bent, right? What does this meanfor our safety and future as
Americans?

It means they could build some of the most
powerful weapons this world hasever seen, with little to hold
them back. And we're not, we'rejust at the beginning of what
artificial intelligence can dothat is even released to the
public, right? And with thedata, yes, he's gotten the

(26:26):
biggest, despite whatevertheatrics he and Trump might
have, Twitter spots or whatever,and then he's, you know, Musk
had to walk back his statementsin a way, right? Because
ultimately, you're dealing witha man who has Trump as
president, who has the force ofThe entire US law enforcement,

(26:46):
and can still throw your ass injail and confiscate your assets.
Doesn't matter how rich you are,there is no bigger force than
The US machine.
So for that to be married totech in which they can I mean,
obviously, we're also seeingsame with Mark Zuckerberg? We're

(27:07):
seeing more of these contracts,their next frontier being
military defense. And Palantir,you know, as well. So we're
looking at a very scary timewhere power is not just
concentrated in the hands of theexecutives, but power
concentrated in the hands of afew men who control our tech. So

(27:29):
what are they doing with ourdata?
Not only lining pockets,obviously, but learning exactly,
perhaps, how to not only controlus, but how to surveil, monitor
facial recognition. All that isalready here. Access to where
you're traveling, who you'remeeting with, who you're talking
to, who your friends are, what'sin your retirement account,

(27:52):
everything. And I think this ispartially a consequence of our
cultural readiness to give awayour personal data in order for
convenience so that we can shopand get cheap stuff on Amazon.
Yep.
But power's never satisfied withwhat it already has. It always
wants more. So while they get togo and launch rockets into space

(28:15):
and escape this, we're the oneswho are, through the cuts to the
tariffs, coming to compete moreand more with higher healthcare
costs, higher rental costs, allthis AI, none of that is going
into making just basicallyliving any easier for Americans.
It's a scary time.

It is a scary time. And these guys, too, also
have kind of an alternate viewabout what's next for this
planet, right? Which is alsopartially related to the
disinvestment in addressingclimate change, because they
actually think that they cantake a rocket to Mars and that
they will be able to live there.Right? And when they go there,
they wanna have a very smallgroup of humans who are there to

(28:55):
then start life on this other tocolonize this next planet.
So I'm wondering about yourthoughts on ICE partnering with
Palantir. And for people whodon't know, Palantir is a
software company that posts ontheir website real time AI
driven decisions in criticalgovernment and commercial
enterprises in the West, fromthe factory floors to the front

(29:17):
lines. So what are theimplications of our government
agencies partnering withcompanies that data mine
Americans?

I'm thinking of maybe a few months ago. There
was basically like a conferenceon immigration, border security,
and one of the officials wassaying, Well, we hope
immigration, we would love forimmigration to function like
Amazon Prime, we're able to bemore efficient, right? Like
using the same infrastructurethat we all use to get our

(29:46):
packages, our paper towels, likethe next day, they could do that
for getting humans out of thecountry. And we've already seen
that this approach, this focuson quotas and numbers and trying
to get as many people out, nomatter how crude it is, no
matter even if these people weredoing it illegal or if these

(30:08):
people were wrongly taken. Thistechnocratic efficiency is one
where it will be harder tochallenge, and not just harder
to challenge, but who do youhold accountable for things that
go on when it's an AI or aprogram that has been programmed
to make these life or deathdecisions?
I think on a legal frontier, wehaven't even scratched the

(30:31):
surface of who is legallyaccountable for an algorithm
making these decisions. And so Ijust, I think a lot about that
quote that we're hoping for ourimmigration system to set up a
system that's like Amazon,literally shipping people out of
the country in as fast as twentyfour hours. Right. And they're
testing that. And so, again,back to the question about speed

(30:55):
and technology, and not justthat, but the fact that there
are countries that are willingto partner with us in this
trafficking, basically, what Icall human trafficking, are
making money and cutting dealswith The US, obviously looking
at El Salvador, looking at therumors of Rwanda, you know, that
are to capitalize off of thistechno fueled purge, ethnic

(31:22):
purge, because it's not allimmigrants, right?
White South Africans are gettingfast tracked for asylum. So this
is a deeply racial thing of techaiding in the correcting of the
social order through thesecompanies that have been
empowered by us, in a way.Again, deeply scary. And again,

(31:43):
where's the not evenaccountability how do we get
them to stop?

Exactly, exactly. I think that's right.
How do we get them to stop? Ithink part of the reason why
people are able to move soquickly right now is because the
vast majority of Americans don'tunderstand what's happening.
They don't understand AI.
They don't understand thesignificance of data. I think
there's a fair amount of peoplewho are actually checked out of
just the news and as it'sunfolding every day.

I'd actually challenge that a little bit,
only in from the sense that,yes, there are a lot of people
who are horrified. There areenough people who horrified.
That being said, we have in thiscountry, the rhetoric, whether
it's a Democratic or Republicancandidate, the conversation
around immigration has alwaysbeen, we're not going after the

(32:29):
good ones. We're going after thebad ones. We're going after the
criminals.
And a lot of people eitherforget, didn't know, would like
to forget that for a while,Obama earned the name of
deporter in chief because he wasdeporting so many people. Tom
Holman, who is the current headof ICE, was appointed by Obama.

(32:51):
Holman deported so many peoplethat Obama gave him a medal.
When you bring that up, when Ibrought that up, people who are
quote unquote, on the otherside, liberals will say, But
Obama only deported thecriminals. It is not possible to
hit those numbers and not catchpeople up in the net that don't
deserve to be there, right?

(33:12):
So it gets to this question of,we always justify cruelty in
saying, we're only doing thisfor the criminals, right? When,
again, this idea of quotas orhaving quotas, the fact that
under the Obama administrationas well, children were
representing themselves incourt. I think for us, we have

(33:33):
to deeply go back to the drawingboard in terms of, this is why I
have my costs, right? Butchallenging this notion of we
can't say that, yes, what ishappening is cruel and it's in
front of my unapologeticallycruel. But they're using the
same rationales that previousadministrations have always it's

(33:56):
just the bad ones.

Right. Right. No. I agree with you on that.
What I meant to say was thatthey're able to move quickly
with tech, preventing theregulation of AI, I think,
because the vast majority ofpeople still do not understand
exactly what is AI and what'scapable with AI.
So that's what I meant. But Iagree with you on that point.

Yeah. The scary thing, is, and back to the
collapse of journalism as well,and people who are able to look
into records and challenge this,is we're also living with an
administration that is capableof manipulating data about what
is actually happening. So eventhose of us who are journalists,
if we were going to issue a FOIArequest, immigration in

(34:39):
particular has long been thehardest sometimes to get
accurate information andresponses from administrations.
So again, you could see, well,not even see a future, but a
moment where an administrationsays, Oh, but our AI, we've
designed our AI so that we onlygo after the criminals. So

(34:59):
whatever we're doing, becauseit's been done by AI and they're
so much smarter than us, we'veeliminated the process of error.
And we're supposed to believethat because it taps into what
we're being told about what AIcan do. And we're being told
that it is vastly better thanhumans at doing anything. So
this is where we are building afuture where a government that

(35:19):
is aligning itself with thetechnology that is supposedly
infallible, then all they needto do is say, ah, but it was AI.
So whoever says that, thenliterally, it's the word of God,
basically.

I'm Emily Williams. Welcome back to Beyond
Voting. I've been talking withaward winning journalist Karen
Attia. Before the break, Karenand I talked about her work
teaching her resistance summerschool courses and the power of
an educated populace to resistauthoritarian rule, the dangers
of the growing alliance betweentech billionaires and our
government, and the deeplytroubling consequences of this

(36:02):
administration's much morestreamlined second term. In the
second part of our conversation,I talked to Karen about what a
supercharged ICE budget couldmean not just for immigrant
detainees but American citizensin the future why the Democratic
Party has seemingly shown a lackof will when they had the power
to enact popular progressivepolicies and hold bad actors

(36:24):
accountable and why Karen thinksgoing all in on radical empathy
might be the only thing that cansave us.
Karen, I wanna go back to Obamaa little bit, you know, because
Oh,

they're gonna come for us. They're gonna come for
us.

That's okay. We can we can have a dialogue. We
can have a dialogue with them.That's okay. And it's so
interesting how Obama has comeup now in conversations in
response to what thisadministration is doing.
In the Washington Post, you saidthat Obama is not your emotional
support president. Okay. So I soI have two questions in response

(37:00):
to that. One, what did you meanby that? But two, what is it in
this country's imagination thatwould position Barack Obama as a
savior in this moment?

I'm laughing right now because, yeah, so what
happened was the ice raids werebroadcast everywhere on TV and
people were like, my god, seeingthings just falling apart. And
there are folks on social media,both on social media. And there
was an Atlantic article,honestly, was saying, there's
Barack Obama, we need him rightnow.

I read that one. I saw that one. Was thinking,
Okay, wait, what?

So and I just was like, what do you want this man
to do? First of all, like, lethim be. Second of all, like,
there are other presidents whoare like, like, George Bush is
right there. In fact, to me, Ithink it'd be interesting if
Bush spoke, because Obama hasbeen in the ether talking about
democracy and Yes, does. So Ithink it's a combination of a

(37:59):
couple of things.
I agree that in terms of ademocratic politician with the
sort of rock star power, likeObama, yes, he was a cultural
icon, yes. His rhetoricalabilities are above and beyond.
Yes, all of that was true. Andin terms of star power, Trump

(38:21):
has star power. I would say thathe has political power because
he has star power.
So do the Democrats have a wholelot of star power? Not so much.
Obama and Michelle, to anextent, probably are still, the
biggest stars of the DemocraticParty, which is a problem
because he's been out of officefor a solid decade. So it's

(38:42):
like, it speaks to the factthat, A, Democrats have not
built their bench in thismoment. And B, and I would argue
this, that we have, not thatit's Obama's fault, but this
tanking of democracy, this whiteracist backlash is, I would
argue precisely because thiscountry had the audacity to

(39:04):
elect a black man to rule whitepeople, not once, but twice.
So I said it's almost as ifwhite folks are burning down
black people's houses, goingafter the ethnics, and you want
someone who's representing thegroup that's being killed and
massacred to come out and dosomething. When it's like,

(39:24):
actually, particularly again, Ithink it's white folks who are
calling on Obama to be themagical Negro to save them. I
actually had people respond tome. They're like, he just makes
me feel good. And I'm like,that's not I get it, but, like,
that's not what, you know, whatwe need.
So I find it I find it in a wayfascinating, futile. But he is

(39:46):
coming out a bit more lately. Ithink they're paying attention
to what we're saying.

I I think he's listening. Yeah. Actually. Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's also a problem,because it never should have
been about what makes you feelgood. You know, that's what
people said about George Bush.Well, I wanna feel like I can
get a beer with my president.Mhmm. As opposed to, is our
president governing in a waythat makes life more livable for
everyone?
Right? I mean, what are ourvalues here? Also, you know, I

(40:13):
think when we think about, okay,so there was a black man who led
for eight years. I also feellike and it was particularly in
in reading that Atlanticarticle. I felt like there was
such entitlement.
Like, people are entitled toBarack Obama's time and to
demand that he come andintervene. So that's problematic
on its own level, right, when welook at the racial dynamics of
that. And okay. So he makes youfeel good. But what are you

(40:35):
doing to address these crisesthat are unfolding in front of
our faces day after day?
I mean, are really importantquestions.

Right. And then it's just also like, did we
forget Obama was deporter inchief? So you like, y'all want
like the same president that,again, I'm not before they come
for me, I'm not trying to saythat it's the same as Trump.
Obama maybe did it a little moresmoothly, perhaps. But and I
wrote about this under thattime, the Obama administration

(41:04):
was sued for their rocketdockets for not giving people
due process and getting peopleout of the country as quickly as
possible.
So I'm like, y'all's minds,like, let's just sit and put our
thinking caps on. Y'all arewatching the cruelty of the
raids right now, but you wannaask a president that in some
ways laid the foundation forwhat we're seeing today.

Right.

Make it make sense. It doesn't make sense to
me. Right. But people just said,people could not see. And I
think this is part of theproblem, like, he was their guy,
their guy could not have madeany mistakes, not like the other
guy, which I'm trying to, we'retrying to say that it is wrong
no matter which person does it.
We can't just go on vibes.

Exactly. Exactly. I was gonna say it in
how they make you feel whilethey're doing these these things
that are actually destroyingother people's lives. So, Karen,
just let's let's just talk alittle bit more about ICE and
potentially their next steps.Because with this new so called
big beautiful bill, theysupercharged funding to ICE.
And you've mentioned and andwe've seen in the news that the

(42:09):
majority of people who they'redeporting right now are black
and brown immigrants. Right?While South African white South
Africans are able to come andseek asylum. Right? And for
listeners, I just put that inair quotes, asylum in air
quotes.
They're now building thesedetention centers. So how do you
see ICE evolving with thisinflux of tax dollars in this

(42:30):
infrastructure that they'rebuilding? But then also, who are
the next targets of ICE whenit's not just undocumented
people or people seeking asylum?You know, what happens when it's
just anyone? And do you see thatbeing the trajectory?

Yeah, so the developments of not only ICE
receiving insane amounts offunding and not only building
the detention capacity andinfrastructure for this, but one
important part about this is thechallenge to birthright
citizenship, right? And thisidea that, yes, if you're a
citizen, this can't happen toyou, right? But birthright

(43:10):
citizenship and thenaturalization process is
actively being challenged rightnow. So you have the potential
for people to be stripped. Andthis has happened in history
before, where whether it wasincarceration of Japanese
Americans who were American bornhere, but because the powers

(43:34):
that be deter- not even deter- Imean, The US, yes, was at war.
But if you go back and you lookat the rhetoric at that time,
not only the rhetoric, but theactions that you could be
stripped of being an American ifyou were deemed to be an
internal enemy. And so this iswhy watching the rhetoric about,
particularly around liberalcities specifically, right?

(43:57):
Because it's interesting to mehow these raids are, we see the
most intense in attacks whenit's the so called liberal
cities that they're at war, theyneed the military intervention,
right? Whereas the raids thatare happening that are closer to
Trump's base, when they're atfarms, when they're hurting red

(44:18):
state small businesses, then,you know, it's quiet. But the
point is, is they're creating acontainer for a world in which
your citizenship can bechallenged and stripped for any
reason.
Mhmm. And I hope people preparefor that possibility. Not only
possibility, it has been donebefore. It has been done in

(44:40):
other countries, undesirablegroups. You are whatever the
government says you are.
And in an age where journalismis being challenged, people are
on you have this meme makingWhite House that can Photoshop
things onto people, it is alsothe deliberate manipulation and

(45:01):
distortion of reality. We're ina really, really tough time. So
who has the power to control thenarrative about who you are? So
the line between who iscriminal, who is not, who is
citizen, who is not, they canmake stuff up about you when
they want you gone.

And they have all your data too, so that can
be used to manipulate as well.

Absolutely. Yeah. So looking at ICE, I'm thinking
about so many people, so many ofus who said years ago, abolish
ICE, abolish ICE, and we lookedat crazy. Right. I guess if
there's any, if I had any sliverof some sort of hope, I

don't know.

It's if

it's I hope so, Karen. I hope there's more than
a sliver of hope.

I mean, I would hope that even within sort of
MAGA worlds in a way thatthey're seeing a little bit that
like, wait, this is a little toofar. This is not what I voted
for.

Right. Well, which is interesting because I
think we are seeing a little bitmore of that. And I think also
with these Epstein files in thelist where there was a list, now
there's not a list. I think weare beginning to see where there
could be a potential fracturewithin MAGA, and a potential
departure from MAGA support forDonald Trump. What do you think

(46:19):
it would take for that split?
Because let's be honest, right?We have heard some people come
forward and saying, I voted forTrump, but I didn't vote for
this. But also he still doesreally have support on the
ground. And we're seeingglimmers of these fractures,
even with Tucker Carlson reallychallenging Ted Cruz I on

never thought. Who would have thought? Or even
Marjorie Taylor Greenechallenging Epstein, or even her
also challenging on US fundingfor Israel. I was like, the
world is upside down. Exactly,exactly.
That being said, he still haspower. We see how he goes after
people who are disloyal to him.Right? So, but that's my small,

(47:04):
tiny, from that side, I'm notcounting on, I wouldn't like
hold my, but like glimmers.

Okay, so you think then that like his MAGA
base is pretty loyal and thateven these things around, if he
happens to be on the list, theEpstein list, wouldn't impact
their loyalty to him?

It's so hard to say. He's been able to not only
survive, but be reelectedthrough the Access Hollywood
tapes, two impeachments, January6. I mean, to an extent.

That's fair.

That's why I'm like, I'm just not really one
for like, I just like to look athistory and facts. But that
being said, I wonder if Israelwill start to be breaking
points. I do wonder, the Epsteincase, particularly this space,
particularly the sort ofChristian right, has made a part
of their culture being antihuman trafficking, whatever that

(47:59):
means to them. So for him toactively align with a
universally reviled pedophileand trafficker is something to
watch. That being said, I stillI, in general, caution against
holding one's breath for waitingfor other people to do
something.

I feel that. I know.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. They do.

We'll see.

Okay. Alright. A bit more about Obama and the
Democrats. So at differentpoints throughout the Obama and
Biden administrations, Democratseffectively had a majority in
both houses. And in oneinstance, they had a friendly
Supreme Court.
So either through unwillingnessto abolish the filibuster to get

(48:44):
past the supermajorityrequirements needed to bypass
GOP stonewalling in the Senateor kneecapping themselves
preemptively by things like notconsidering a public option with
Affordable Care Act. They'vedefinitely shown a lack of will
when it comes to enactingpopular progressive policies. So

(49:04):
what has stopped the Democratsfrom doing exactly what they say
they want in the way thatRepublicans in this
administration is doing now? Andthen also, if the Dems win back
both houses of Congress, do weexpect them to stand up and
resist? And what would thatresistance look like from your
perspective?

I was just I can't see this, but I'm, like,
smirking and LOL ing. I don'tknow, at this very moment in
time, on July 22, 12:06PM, I'vehad it with the Democrats. I
mean, you're not alone in In thesense, in the establishment
Democrats, the sense of, yeah,exactly as you said, when there

(49:42):
was an option to use andexercise power through
abolishing the filibuster,which, by, in and of itself, has
been used to protect some of themost egregious racist laws. It
is a tool of our plantationpast, basically, that they've
voted to, or they've electedrather, to gain power and then

(50:06):
not use it in order to protectthe supposed values that they
ran on. I mean, it's almost asif their strategy, which is less
of an electoral strategy andmore of a fundraising strategy,
to fundraise off of being theperpetual loser or underdog,
right?
After every big win, we getthose texts from Nancy Pelosi

(50:27):
being like, We need your helpand we need your support. Well,
what did this party do when youhad that power? And I think
there's been a fundamentalbreach of trust. I mean, now I
would ask any of them, whyshould we vote for you again?
And it's not enough just towell, we're not Trump.
Right? And if you're seeing alot of the postmortems, even

(50:49):
right now, they're even refusingto go back and look at the Biden
Harris campaign. They'reconcluding basically that, oh,
there weren't that manymistakes. Like, let's just move
on. I mean, I think that part ofwhat resistance would look like
is fucking getting rid ofwhatever, like, old school 1995
Democratic consultant class, thesame ones that for a quick

(51:12):
second on the campaign trailwith Harris and Waltz.
I don't know if you remember,there's a moment where Waltz was
like, unleash and he was callingthe like, do have kiwi folks who
are obsessed with bathrooms?He's calling them weird. He's
like, these people are justweird. And it was working. We're
like, hell yeah, like, you know,this is the nice attack line in
the right for a second.
Like they were flustered. We'renot weird. We're, you know, but

(51:36):
then they pulled him back. Theybenched him, that sort of
energy. And it's a fundamental,almost like misread of not only
misread, but an activeabandonment.
They're more likely to fightagainst the progressive wings of
the Democratic Party than theyare against the right. Instead,

(51:59):
we see this try to appeal to theright. Harris talking about
having the most lethal army inthe world and talking about her
guns. Yet, again, benching thesort of that authentic not to
mention carrying on withgenocide and all that. But I
think in terms of even for ifyou could even say where the
party should get there are a lotof people that need to be

(52:19):
primaried, to be honest.

I I agree with you on that, Karen. And I just
wanna say for our listeners, ifyou all want a good postmortem
on the twenty twenty fourelections, go ahead and listen
to season one of Beyond Votingbecause we got deep into all of
these issues. And let me alsojust say about there's a lot of
Democrats who need to beprimaried. Let me also just say,
if I hear another one say, wewanna reach across the aisle and

(52:41):
we wanna try to work with theRepublicans, That should've been
out of the window a long timeago, and it certainly is not the
time to be saying it now orexpecting any kind of
collegiality from theRepublicans at this point. You
know, I just heard Cory Booker,saying that last week in protest
that this is not collegial when

Residue shoved into a locker. Is not collegial.
He yelled as he was strappedinto

We're a leaving. Yeah. We're leaving. Like, okay.
We need some serious resistancehere.
We also need some electedofficials who are serious about
getting good, solid policiespassed for people. And we're not
seeing that from the DemocraticParty right now. We haven't seen
that for a while, I think onecould argue. So, Karen, okay,
two last questions here, okay?Number one, if no one's coming

(53:27):
to save us, how do we saveourselves?
You know, how can we as citizenscreate some accountability in
the face of growing fascism,racism, authoritarianism? Are
there some action steps, or doyou believe all is lost?

No. I mean, of course, I don't believe all is
lost. Ultimately, there arestill more of us than there are
of them. And I think to anextent, definitely, my little
pocket of trying to do somethingin this moment was to create a
space where people could learnabout band knowledge about race

(54:03):
and media and internationalaffairs. And I think, again, as
we talked at the beginning,speed at which that all this is
happening, I think, has justbeen shocking to people.
And I don't blame people forbeing a bit stunned and having I
mean, I've had my world tornapart in so many ways. So I
don't expect for answers to comeovernight. I do believe that we

(54:25):
do have to go back to thedrawing board. I do see,
particularly as we're talkingabout an increased age of
internet surveillance, datasurveillance, that the internet,
frankly, is just not as safe asit used to be. And so we're
going to be seeing a lot morepeople getting back down to,
even the politicians who aresuccessful, it gets back down to
literally talking to people,knocking on doors.

(54:46):
Just even the basic act ofgetting to know who your
neighbors are, seeing thesevideos, not only of ICE rates,
but communities coming togetherto fight off these officers and
protect, putting their bodies onthe line for their friends and
for their neighbors or forpeople that they don't even
know. I think we're gonna see alot of mutual aid, people having
to get into that in the interimas we figure out the broader

(55:10):
political solutions. But I keepsaying, yeah, we're gonna have
to learn to organize at a verybasic, basic level. Like, the
culture workers are gonna bereally important now. The truth
tailors are gonna be really,really important now.
The educate the people withmoney also, it's look. Like,
this onslaught has happenedbecause the right is willing to

(55:32):
put their money where theirmouth is. The sort of lefts, the
social justice space, what like,definitely, again, this
reticence from power is also areticence from actually giving
people the funds to be able toorganize in an exchange. One
issue in the run up to theelection that was actually a

(55:54):
piece that I was wanting to doand did not end up getting to do
or publish, but was that Blackvoting organizations on the
ground were saying, weresounding the alarm, that they
were not getting anywhere nearas much funding as they did
during the twenty twentyelection. And they were raising
the alarm, saying that this wasthey were the ones who were
closest to their communities andknew how to reach their

(56:15):
communities.
They were getting almost lessthan half of what they got for
the previous cycle. So imaginewhat that is meaning for not
only the arrogance of theDemocratic Party that basically,
you know, they were sending intheir own consultants, who were
not parts of their communitieswho had not done that work, but
it just goes to show that if theso called left actually wants

(56:38):
power, it's going to meanraising funds, raising money,
because you're not going to winthis against a side that is
heavily funded. Their media iswell, heavily funded, heavily
organized. So to me, it's justthose basics. Again, back to the
drawing board.
Mhmm. Mhmm.

Final question, Karen. In your radical
imagination, how do we rebuilddemocracy from where we are
right now so that we actuallyhave a country where everyone
has what they need and can livewith dignity?

So you're asking me to imagine a new world. Like,
what is possible? Yes. I mean,first of all, I think obviously
a fundamental issue with thissociety is that our democracy,
if you count democracy as givingeveryone the chance to
participate equally in society,that's only, frankly, been
around since the Civil RightsAct. Also, that opened the door

(57:34):
for many more advancements forimmigrants, for women, right?
I mean, I fundamentally thinkthat a better world and a better
democracy is one where Americapurges its anti Blackness, as
long as that is a fundamentalcore, as I said. I will argue
until my grave that thiscountry, anytime there's been

(57:56):
Black progress, there's beenfierce, fierce backlash to the
point where, you know, whetherit's integrating swimming pools
and white folks being willing topour acid into the pool so that
they can't swim in it either, ifthe Black people can't swim in
it, they can't swim in it towhat we're seeing now, where
Trump being the avatar of areordering of society is

(58:19):
destroying our media, ouracademia. Anything that allowed
Black people and immigrants tothrive, they're going after
firsts. So to me, a country thatfundamentally is willing to
allow Black people to live andthrive would be a first step to

(58:39):
an actual multiculturaldemocracy. Oh, well, and then
addressing the it's a womenproblem.
This is a country that isactively trying to deny just
bodily autonomy. It's notallowing people to be
themselves. Right? So, I mean,it's hard for me to imagine
because you're asking me toimagine a country that wasn't
built on slavery and genocide.Right.

(59:01):
Right. To imagine if we were tostart over again, if that was
even possible, to start overagain with a basic fundamental
premise that there's enough foreveryone, that there's enough
land, and there's enoughresources, that we have enough
to take care of everyone. Peopleshouldn't have to die because
they don't have money. It'sprobably for another podcast,

(59:25):
but I think it's a very deeplywe'd have to have a completely
different spiritual reset. AndI'm not even talking about,
like, a Christian or nonChristian perspective, but a way
from an act of hatred of empathyand sensitivity to others.
And this makes us a very weakcountry, actually, as we're
seeing now. And I'm seeing it inaction, that people who are able

(59:48):
to have the strength to practicenot only radical empathy, but
are willing to get the powerthat it takes in order to put
that sort of empathy into policyand practice. That's the only
way. Like, we can't have allthese nice and fuzzy feelings
and be martyrs. No, I don'tbelieve in that.
But for those who want to dogood in the world to think

(01:00:10):
deeply about power and not beafraid of that. I don't know if
that answers your question.

Emily Williams (01:00:14):
Yeah. No, does. It's great.

Karen Attiah (01:00:16):
That's why education is so threatening to
them. That's why journalism isso threatening to them, because
what that does for people whoare able to read and people who
are able to slow down, it's oneof the few ways, not with AI,
not with some chat GPT, but it'sone of the few ways that you're
able to put yourself in theexperience of someone else. And

(01:00:37):
it is the one way that you'reable to expand yourself as a
human being and expand yourimagination as to what is
possible. And that isthreatening because fascism and
authoritarianism is inherentlynarrow. They're the ones who get
to decide who has merit.
They're the ones who get todecide who's a woman and a man
or not. We are stuck in theirvery small imaginations, right?

(01:00:57):
So we have to do a lot ofimagination work to counter it.
So that's where I'm at, which iswhy I'm in my sexy, radical
professor era. Yeah, because Ideeply believe in that, I deeply
believe in walking the walk whenit comes to this stuff.
So, yeah, we'll see.

Yeah. We'll see. Thank you so much, Karen. This
has been wonderful.

Karen Attiah (01:01:18):
Of course. Thank y'all for having me.

I'm so glad that we got to talk to Karen about
the many threats to our rightsin this country. But before I
get into that, I first want totake a minute to address
something I think is importantto note concerning the growing
and imminent threat tojournalistic freedom. The points
Karen made during our interviewexemplified how critically

(01:01:41):
important journalism and a freepress are to the health of our
democracy. It's essential thatmembers of our news media remain
free and fully unencumbered toreport on the actions of our
government officials withoutinterference whether that be
from the federal government,from the billionaires who own
our media, or from corporationsseeking favor or safety from

(01:02:04):
retribution from those entities.Having access to the knowledge
we need to recognize and opposethreats to our rights and
liberties is paramount.
Any attack on that should beseen as an existential threat to
our constitution and met withfierce and immediate pushback by
all of us. Recently, we've seena rise in attacks against the

(01:02:25):
free press and free speech.According to reporting from CNN
and The Hollywood Reporter, thenewly appointed Federal
Communications Commissionchairman, Brandon Carr, who's
also the author of the FCCregulatory chapter of Project
twenty twenty five, madecomments supporting the
suspension of Jimmy Kimmel.Kimmel sparked criticism when he

(01:02:46):
speculated on the motive behindCharlie Kirk's alleged killer
during his late night talk show.Carr's comments came after TV
station conglomerates NexstarMedia and Sinclair Broadcast
Groups and President Trumpexpressed outrage.
Carr then followed that up bysaying, We can do this the easy
way or the hard way, seeminglypressuring ABC's parent company

(01:03:10):
Disney to remove Kimmel from theair. It's very difficult not to
read that as governmentoverreach and a threat to the
First Amendment. Increasingly,journalists and other public
figures like Joy Reid, StephenColbert, Mehdi Hassan, Mark
Lamont Hill, and Breonna JoyGray have been taken off air or

(01:03:33):
removed from their esteemedpositions despite well
performing shows and criticallyimportant reporting. And in
September, the Pentagon issuednew restrictions on what kinds
of information media outlets canreport on, threatening to revoke
their press passes if they don'tcomply. It's clear that legacy
media is in treacherousterritory.

(01:03:55):
Now more than ever, we need togive our attention and support
to independent outlets committedto speaking truth to power in
the face of unprecedentedopposition. Turning back to our
discussion with Karen, I'm stillthinking about her take on the
transformative power of radicalempathy and not in a sense of
blindly sympathizing with peoplewho do awful things in an empty

(01:04:19):
show of collegiality. Rather,the kind of empathy that
understands what makes all of usricher as people and our country
stronger is a commitment tovaluing and honoring each
other's experiences. One thatknows a thriving multicultural
democracy requires an educationin those experiences, a radical
compassion for others, and thepractice of those principles

(01:04:43):
through our public policies.Now, before you accuse me of
being too woo woo, I know thatpolitics and governing isn't
just about what makes one feelgood.
We must still commit to holdingthose who've done harm
accountable, becauseaccountability is necessary to
create the kind of change weneed to see across our
institutions. But I do think wehave to evaluate our policies

(01:05:06):
and our elected officials inways that question the true
impact of what we're doing andwhat we're not doing. And what
does it mean not only formyself, but for everyone,
particularly those who are mostmarginalized? I think it's fair
to say that the moment we findourselves in today is partially
of our own making. As Karenmentioned, many Democratic

(01:05:29):
leaders haven t shown the willto push through bold policies
that would make lifedemonstrably better for working
people.
Nor did they prevent many of theinstitutional failures we ve
seen for several election cyclesnow, when they had control of
all three branches ofgovernment, partially because of
an allegiance to corporateinterests over the will of the
voters. But it was also areluctance to hold bad actors

(01:05:50):
accountable for fear ofeventually suffering
consequences themselves. Thathas to change. So how do we
start building a better futurefrom where we are now? Let's
start with advocating to makehigher education affordable and
accessible to everyone.
Higher education has beenpoliticized and demonized by the
current administration and itspolitical allies, and

(01:06:11):
consequently there has been apuzzling embrace of anti
intellectualism. We have toloudly reject that. Education is
a human right. When people canread books about people's lives
who are different from them,grasp how systems of oppression
work, and then learn how tocombat them, it helps them
develop the kind of empathy andpolitical practice that is the

(01:06:33):
antidote to fascism andauthoritarianism. When people
lack an education that givesthem access to financial
stability, you end up with apopulace so worried about
meeting their basic needs thatthey're not as apt to
participate in politicalactivism.
And that's by design. Similarly,that lack of education has led
many to take the function of ourgovernment and its services for

(01:06:55):
granted. Many of the folksadvocating so strongly for
weaning out the waste, fraud,and abuse in our government
through Doge cuts didn't seem tofully appreciate the need for
FEMA, the Department ofEducation, the EPA, the CDC,
farm subsidies, and similargovernment programs that provide
critical stability to so many ofour lives. In the haste to start

(01:07:18):
running our government like abusiness or a tech company, they
eliminated the critical, farreaching services that actually
support people. A fundamentalunderstanding of the function of
government would make it clearthat government shouldn't
actually function like abusiness.
It should function like agovernment by the people and for
the edification of its people.Many Americans have been able to

(01:07:42):
live comfortably because ofthose programs for a long time.
That's why it's been so shockingto see these long standing
programs dismantled so quicklybecause so many of us didn't
believe we could truly end upwhere we are. But now we're
seeing the truth, and it'saffecting everybody. Now is the
time to get past the fiction ofour American exceptionalism the

(01:08:03):
belief that we are uniquelyinvincible.
That maybe if we just keepholding on, things will
eventually work out. Or somehero will come to the rescue.
But the hard truth is no one iscoming to save us. There's only
one way through our immediatecrisis: we have to come together
to save ourselves. We want tohear from you.

(01:08:27):
How do you envision the power ofradical empathy to change lives
in your community? How have therecent policy changes affected
the lives of you and yourneighbors? What strategies are
you using to push back againstthose harmful local and federal
policies? Tell us on IG at ArcusCenter or drop it in your five
star review of the show. Themore folks who share our show,

(01:08:50):
the more we'll grow our audienceand be able to bring you
episodes about critical issuesthat matter to you.
A huge thank you to Karen Atiafor joining us and helping us
get our new season off to anincredible start. We're so
grateful for her insight and thetime she spent with us, and we
can't wait to see what she doesnext. You can follow Karen and

(01:09:11):
her work on Substack, The GoldenHour, and on socials karenatia,
that's A T T I A H, on Blue Skyand Instagram. You can also
check out her past columns atthe Washington Post. If you
liked this episode, please makesure to share our show with
everyone you know, friends,family, comrades, colleagues.

(01:09:35):
Also, a minute to visit us atarcuscenter.kzo.edu and check
out the important work we'redoing with the next generation
of social justice and humanrights leaders. That's it for
this episode of Beyond Voting.Don't forget to join us next
week. Until then, thank you somuch for listening and see you

(01:09:56):
in the streets. Beyond Voting ishosted by me, Emily Williams.
Keisha T. K. Dutas is ourexecutive producer. Kristen
Bennett is our lead producer.And this episode was written by
Kristen Bennett and me.
Manny faces is our engineer.Marketing is courtesy of Fabian

(01:10:18):
Mickens of FM Digital. And ourmusic is provided by Motion
Array. Special thanks to my teamat the Arcus Center for Social
Justice Leadership. Quentin,Adriana, Coco, Tamada, Kara, and
all the students.
Beyond Voting is a production ofPhilos Future Media.

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