July 4, 2024 • 28 mins
On today’s Bible Answer Man broadcast (07/04/24), Hank notes that as Americans celebrate Independence Day today, it is important to remind ourselves of the fundamental purpose of the United States as set forth in the preamble to the Constitution: “to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity”. To discuss what is essential to know about our particular Government, Hank introduces a special presentation of his conversation with Professor Francis Beckwith, author of Politics for Christians: Statecraft as Soulcraft.
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(00:04):
Heard all across the United States,Canada, and around the world. This
is the Bible answer Man broadcast withHank Annigraph Hank as President of the Christian
Research Institute at CRI. Our desireis to equip you not only to defend
the historic Christian faith, but tobecome a winsome witness to a spiritually hungry
(00:28):
but skeptical world, because life andtruth matter. To learn more or to
find resources to help you grow ingrace, call eight eight eight seven thousand
CROI or go online to equip dotorg. That's equip dot org. The
following program was pre recorded and nowhere's Hank canagraph. As Americans celebrate independent
(00:54):
State, which commemorates the birth ofour nation, we do will to remind
ourselves of the fundamental purpose of theUnited States, as set forth in the
pre Emble to the Constitution, toform a more perfect union, to establish
(01:15):
justice, to ensure domestic tranquility,provide for the common defense, promote the
general welfare, and secure the blessingsof liberty to ourselves and to our posterity.
Today it is well worth reflecting onthe fact that as citizens in the
(01:40):
United States of America, which isa true liberal democracy, we can as
yet form political parties, we canvote, we can run for elected office,
and petition the government for a redressof grievances. Today's special Guests flows
for Francis Beckwith has well said thatChristians in our nation are uniquely blessed,
(02:07):
blessed with with opportunities to shape theircommunities in ways that were absent in previous
generations. Although the Bible does notsay a whole lot about the role of
a Christian citizen and his relationship tothe state, Scripture does communicate principles that
(02:29):
provide us with insight on the scopeof your and my responsibility in the context
of a liberal democracy. Christians haveto use their freedom wisely. They have
to behave honorably before those who haveas yet to believe in our Lord.
(02:55):
And we must as Christians, respectthe rule of law, and not only
that, but the authorities put inplace to protect such law, and that
for the sake of the common good. As Orthodox Christians living in America,
(03:15):
we are truly blessed to live ata time, to live at a place
where, unlike millions of fellow believersaround the world, we are yet free
to worship God and that in theopen. Moreover, at this critical juncture
(03:37):
in history, we most fervently pray, pray that our freedom to worship will
continue in the days to come.I am delighted to share with you or
a conversation I had with doctor FrancisBeckwith, a man who publishes and teaches
(04:00):
not only philosophy and religion, butjurisprudence, politics, and ethics. He
is professor of philosophy as well asChurch State Studies at Baylor University, where
he also serves as Associate director ofthe Graduate Program in Philosophy an affiliate professor
(04:25):
of political science. He's the authorof many books, including the book we're
going to focus on during today's broadcast, a book titled Politics for Christians subtitled
State as Soulcraft. Doctor Francis Beckwithexplains that in order to be wise stewards
(04:47):
of the gift of self government withinthe context of liberal democracy, Christians must
understand not only what their theol pologyteaches about their obligations to the wider community,
but also to understand both the natureof their government as well as its
(05:10):
political system. Those Christians have tobe, in the words of Jesus whise
as serpents and harmless as doves.So join me now. I discussed what
is essential to know about our particulargovernment with philosopher and author doctor Francis Beckweth.
(05:32):
Francis, let's talk about the titleof your book, state Craft as
soul craft. What does that mean. Well, it's a shorthand way of
saying what Aristotle taught, the ancientGreek philosopher, and that actually was picked
up by most thinkers in politics oftentoil. Really, the modern age,
(05:57):
and that is politics is not justabout having an orderly society, enforcing criminal
law and contracts, which, ofcourse it does involve all those sorts of
things. It also is about makingsure that people are at least allowed to
be good, not just good interms of relation to the civil and criminal
(06:21):
law and the political institutions, butbeing good citizens and good people. That
is statecraft. The role of thestate is to sort of form the soul.
Now, of course, as aChristian, I don't believe that government
saves you. But of course,living in a regime where let's say you
(06:43):
have religious liberty, or you livein a regime that is at least favorable
deferential to faith, you're more likelyto flourish as not only an individual,
but as part of a community ofother individuals that are flourishing. So staatecraft
is ohcraft is simply saying that thelaw, the government to public institutions make
(07:05):
us who we are. And thisis the part that I think a lot
of people don't grasp, is thateven if the government says we're not interested
in soul craft, it does doit anyway. It's just the very nature
of a public institution to inform peopleabout what is good, true, and
beautiful. Even if you happen tolive in a nation like most Western nations
(07:28):
that claim to be neutral on moralquestions, the government really can't be neutral
on such questions. It's going to, in one way or another, tell
us what is good, true,and beautiful, and it's going to shape
the souls and its citizens by doingso. You mentioned the word politics just
a moment ago. What is theetymology of the word politics. Well,
politics comes from a Greek word polis, which means the city, and so
(07:56):
it involves in a sense the community, and not just as a collection of
individuals, but as an entity thatis greater than those individuals. So for
that reason, politics, at leastthe way I define it, in its
way it's been traditionally understood, ismore than just let's say, electoral politics.
(08:18):
So we think of, for example, in twenty twenty yind presidential election,
and it's just about politics. Well, politics doesn't just involve elections and
electioneering and voting. It also involvesthe sorts of kind of informal rules that
arise in neighborhoods right or are localordinances. Any sort of association that involves
(08:43):
some set of rules that transcend theindividuals is in a sense political. In
a sense, the family is akind of political institution in that sense,
and this is why Aristotle taught thatthe family is sort of the beginning of
the city, or the building blockof the city's in itself a city.
(09:03):
In fact, he says that it'snot a perfect state, because in order
to have a perfect state, youneed more than just one family. You
need a collection of families that havemembers who do all sorts of things that
none of us can do on ourown. This is why we have different
professions and you know, jobs,and you know talents and so forth,
(09:26):
And of course political institutions arise sothat those activities can be protected and sustained
in an orderly fashion. But yeah, politics is, in terms of its
etymology, just refers to kind ofthe simple word the city. But the
city, you know, is notin the sort of modern way of city,
but just any sort of collection ofindividuals that have a humanitarian life together.
(09:50):
You know, politics is really connotative, isn't it. I mean a
lot of people will say I'm nota politician because of all of the baggage
now now that is attached to thatword, But if you think about a
denotatively, it gives you completely adifferent perspective. Yes, It's like when
people say that they don't like lobbyists. I joke with my students about this.
(10:13):
Anytime somebody's running for offices, you'llget something like a mailor or something
advertised on social media and says,I'm not like the Zogo politicians. I
won't be controlled by lobbyists. AndI will ask my students how many of
you have money in the bank,and of course they'll raise their hand and
go, oh, you have alobbyist. No, your bank has a
lobbyist. Is that you're all studentshere at Baylor, right? Guess what
(10:35):
I hate to inform you Keller hasa lobbyist. You know, it's part
of the nature of living in afree society in which we have representative government
for people to actually be involved withpolitics. I mean, what's the alternative,
you know, the alternative is tunanny. Don't go away. We'll be
right back and rejoin. Hank Catagraphsconversation with doctor Francis Beckwith What roles should
(11:01):
Christian citizens take in a liberal democracy? What is the proper separation of church
and state? What place should bemade for natural rights and the moral law
in the governance of a nation.How a nation answers these questions profoundly impacts
whether the government under which its citizenslive is just or unjust. In our
(11:22):
increasingly post Christian world, followers ofChrist must not relinquish politics to the unbelieving
world. Read Politics for Christians stateCraft as soul Craft by doctor Francis Beckwith.
To receive your copy of Politics forChristians, call eight eight eight seven
thousand CRII and make a gift tosupport the Christian Research Institute's life changing outreaches
(11:48):
eight eight eight seven thousand CRII orvisit us at equip dot org. The
Complete Bible answer Book Collector's Edition isthe comprehensive collection of the most often asked
questions Hank Hannigraph has received throughout hisfour decades as host of the Bible answer
(12:11):
Man broadcast. With more than halfa million copies already in print, this
newly revised and expanded Collector's Edition helpedseekers and skeptics alike sort through the truth
on topics such as reliability of theBible, religions and cults, the resurrection
and afterlife, and many more issuesvital to a better understanding of God in
(12:33):
Christ and our relationship to Him.To receive your copy of the Complete Bible
answer Book Collector's Edition, Revised andExpanded, call eight eight eight seven thousand
CRII and make a gift to supportthe Christian Research Institute's life changing outreaches eight
eight eight seven thousand CRII or visitus at EQUIP dot org. The number
(13:01):
of wolves surrounding the Christian flock isgrowing, and they relish nothing more than
Docile's sheep, utterly incapable of defendingthemselves from militant secularists at home to militant
Islamists abroad. The assaults on BiblicalChristianity are growing dangerously, but Christian research
institutes Support Team members aren't in favorof feeding these wolves. Instead, each
(13:24):
day they're making possible an array ofoutreaches that defang these wolfpacks with solid arguments
and evidence that have stood the testof time. What's more, Support Team
members are equipping themselves with criis equippingEssentials, a handpicked collection of the best
apologetics tools around. Your selection ofresources are just our way of saying thanks.
(13:46):
To learn more about the benefits ofmembership, simply visit equip dot org.
Once again, that's equip dot org. According to Politics for Christians by
Francis Beckwith a candidate who embraces Christianideals even if he or she is not
(14:07):
a Christian is a candidate that aChristian can support with a clear conscience.
Christians in America had the historically uniquepower to enact laws that advance the common
good and must take this special obligationseriously by using good judgment while voting and
supporting legislation and political candidates. Thisis not to say that Christians will always
(14:30):
agree on what policies and candidates representthe best option to advance the common good,
but there is no doubt that Christianshave a biblical mandate to advance it.
To receive your copy of Politics forChristians Statecraft as soul Craft, call
eight eight eight seven thousand CRII andmake a gift to support the Christian Research
(14:50):
Institutes Life Changing Outreaches eight eight eightseven thousand CRII or visit us at equipped
dot org. Well, let's rejoinHank Hantagraph and doctor Francis beckwith as they
(15:11):
continue their conversation. You know,one of the most helpful parts of your
book, Politics for Christians, atleast from a personal perspective, and other
people have indicated this to me aswell, is where you explain what a
liberal democracy is. A lot ofpeople when they hear the word liberal have
(15:31):
all kinds of ideas of what thatmight mean. And the same thing is
true with democracy. So explain bothparts, the liberal part and the democracy
part of a liberal democracy. Yeah, so let me just start with the
second part, democracy, because typicallywhen you hear the word democracy, you
think of popular vote. Right,everything's run by majority vote, and so
(15:54):
people tend to think and rightfully.You'll also hear, you know, I've
listened to talk radio once in awhile, people say we don't live in
a democracy, and what they meanto say is this, we don't live
in a nation that votes on everything. You know, we don't vote on
every law. That is to say, as individuals, right, we vote
(16:15):
people into office that represent us.That we're democracy, at least the way
it's been traditionally. Honestaid liberal democracydoesn't mean that everything is voted on.
It simply refers to the kind ofequality that human beings share. That is
to say, I am just asmuch a citizen as the President of the
(16:37):
United States. We don't live ina monarchy. I oftentimes tell my students
when I went to law school twentyyears ago, I called it the Great
democratizing Experience. And what I meantby that was I went to law school.
I had a PhD in philosophy,and I thought I was going to
just ace everything, and I washumbled and I realized that I was just
(17:00):
one of fifty students, and towardsclass, we were all equal. So
that sense of democracy is of equalitythat we have. But it doesn't mean
that we vote on everything, becausethat would reduce to mob rule. And
this is why at least of theUnited States and in the American founding,
we have a constitution that limits thepower of groups for the purpose of securing
(17:29):
that equality. So imagine if wedid vote on everything directly, you would
have cases where if you had popularenthusiasms, you could have tyranny right because
you could have a charity of amajority, and that would technically be at
least to kind of rough democracy.But that gets us to the first part
of liberal democracy. The word liberalreally means liberty. That is, that
(17:55):
there are certain fundamental liberties that thegovernment is ombligated to protect. And we
typically think of those liberties, atleast in the United States, in our
Bill of Rights. But even priorto the Bill of Rights being put into
the Constitution, the understanding was thatthe Constitution was to limit the federal government
(18:17):
so that communities throughout the United Statesand the differing states can pass laws to
advance the common good of those communities. And so when I use the word
liberal, I don't mean it inthe sense of like liberal versus conservative,
which is the kind of way inwhich we talk in our popular politics.
I mean liberal in the sense thatthere are fundamental liberties and so in a
(18:41):
sense, everyone today, virtually everyoneI'm sure, there are likely exceptions to
this, but today, if aperson calls themselves a liberal or a conservative,
in a way, we're all kindof liberals, right, I mean,
we all kind of believe that theyare fundamental liberties. To be sure,
there are deep disagreements on certain issues, but that's the way in which
(19:02):
I explained liberal democracy. It's notsimply, at least the democracy part.
It's not simply you know, thiskind of fifty percent plus one is how
we determine the law. And inthe context of America, the founders understood
that that would be just a recipefor tyranny. You needed a variety of
other institutions that were not the resultof direct election. So we had sort
(19:27):
of the federal government, the USSenate, which at the time was not
directly elected. They were chosen bystate legislatures. And you had the representation
direct representation in the House of Representatives. You also had the court system.
Plus you've also had the different states, and so the founders kind of assumed
that human beings, if given toomuch power, have a tendency to be
(19:51):
tyrannic owned so they created the systemin which they thought it would be more
difficult for any one group or individualto take over. So what some of
us today or some people will say, oh, we've got too much gridlock.
The Sounders would say gridlock is goodbecause gridlock means that people will be
forced to have to negotiate disagreements ina way that would result in compromise and
(20:18):
so forth. Of course, thequestion today is have we truly sustained that
kind of government? And that's anargument that people are currently having to be
sure. We often as Christians talkabout the art and science of biblical interpretation.
Is there an art and a scienceto interpreting the Constitution properly? And
(20:38):
are there different perspectives? Some peopleare originalists, other people think that the
Constitution is a living document. Talkabout that a little bit. Yeah,
there's different schools of thought on that. The view that I'm sure most of
your listeners have heard about is calledoriginalism, which is a view that's associated
with the late Justice Antonin Scalia andJustice Amy Cony Barrett, and it's the
(21:03):
view that we should interpret the Constitutionas it was originally understood. A lot
of people misunderstand this. They thinkthat it's the view of original intent,
and in fact Scalia himself did notlike the term original intent because his thinking
was, it's not what the authorsor founders intended, it's what the words
(21:26):
meant. So to give an example, imagine when the fourteenth Amendment was passed,
where it says that once life,liberty, or a property cannot be
taken without the process of law.And then there's another part that says that
the government has an obligation to enforcethe law equally. It's sometimes called the
equal Protection Clause. Now imagine thatthere were some people, clear there were
(21:49):
people who wrote who are involved withthe Fourteenth Amendment who thought that the equal
Protection Clause permitted racial segregation, andso they're intent was that it not be
extended or thought to make racial segregationillegal. Well, it took almost one
hundred years, but in nineteen fiftyfour, the Supreme Court said that precisely
(22:11):
what it means, that is,people should be treated with equal protection under
the law. And even though therewere clearly people that wrote the fourteenth of
Theomen who were segregationists or would havebeen segregationists, it doesn't matter what the
words mean, not what people intendedthem to me right, or what they
(22:33):
speculated how they'd be applied in thefuture. So I think another example I
use it my students in class.Imagine you're asked by your boss. Let's
say you're the partner in a lawfirm, and you're asked by the senior
partner to chair a search committee fora new hireing. And the boss comes
in he said, I want youto hire the best person. Oh and
(22:55):
by the way, my son isapplying. So when he says, in
his mind the best person, hisintent is that you hire his son.
Well, it turns out, let'ssay you don't hire his son, because
it turns out he's not really thebest person. So it's what the words
meant at the time, not whatwas in the head of the people who
(23:18):
authored the fourteenth Amendment. And thisis not to say that there aren't going
to be disagreements among originalists. Thereare, to be sure. Now some
of the other views. There's aview that's associated with some more liberal justices,
which is the view that it's sometimescalled the living constitution view, the
term coined by the late Justice Brennan, and it's the view that the Constitution
(23:45):
sort of has to change with thetimes. And what's unusual about that view.
I think a problem with that viewis that it tends to buy into
this understanding that history is always gettingbetter, progressing. So, to give
you an example from Justice Brennan's reasoning, in a couple of cases involving the
(24:07):
death penalty, he argued that theEighth Amendment, which prohibits cruel and unusual
punishment, he says, well,today we recognize the death penalty as being
cruel and unusual, so therefore thedeath penalty is unconstitutional. Now Justice Clea
has pointed out, or pointed outin civil writings, the Constitution itself presupposes
(24:30):
the death penalty. It says thatthe government can't take life, liberty,
or property without due process of law. Well, if you can take life
with due process, then clearly thedeath penalty is accepted. And the other
problem with Blennan's view is that he'simagining that somehow we're going to become a
(24:51):
more gentler and kinder culture as timedevelops. But if let's say we become
a more barbaric culture, and somebodysays, well, I don't think cruel
and unusual should exclude, you know, torturing people, because after all,
you know, we're progressing, andwe believe torture is good now. So
(25:14):
Scalia's point is that we have tolook at what was meant by cruel and
unusual when that was passed at theend of the eighteenth century, because it
may not be the case that JusticeBretan's future where we become less barbaric,
is in fact going to be thecase. Better that we tightly teather the
meaning of that amendment to what wasintended at the time. If in fact
(25:38):
we want to change it, wehave an amendment process to do. Then
thank you for listening to the specialedition of the Bible answer Man Broadcast with
Hank anagraph to hear this handk unpluggedpodcast interview with Professor Francis Beckwe in its
entirety. Go to equip dot org, iTunes, or wherever you listen to
(25:59):
your favor podcasts. In appreciation foryour vital gift to help strengthen and expand
the life changing outreaches of the ChristianResearch Institute, Hank would like to send
you doctor Beckwith's book Politics for ChristiansStatecraft as Soul Craft. Simply call eight
eight eight seven thousand CROI and makea gift to support CRI's life changing outreaches.
(26:25):
Eight eight eight seven thousand CROI orvisit equip dot org. That's equip
dot org. You can also writeto CURI at Post Office Box eighty five
hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina,two eight two seven one. The preceding
program was pre recorded. The Bibleanswer Man Broadcast is funded by listeners like
(26:48):
you. We're on the air becausetruth matters and life matters more. The
Complete Bible answer Book Collector's Edition isthe comprehensive collection of the most often asked
questions Hank Hannigraph has received throughout hisfour decades as host of the Bible answer
(27:11):
Man Broadcast. With more than halfa million copies already in print, this
newly revised and expanded Collector's Edition helpedseekers and skeptics alike sort through the truth
on topics such as reliability of theBible, religions and cults, the resurrection
and afterlife, and many more issuesvital to a better understanding of God in
(27:33):
Christ and our relationship to Him.To receive your copy of the Complete Bible
answer Book Collector's Edition, Revised andExpanded, call eight eight eight seven thousand
CRII and make a gift to supportthe Christian Research Institute's life changing outreaches eight
eight eight seven thousand CRII or visitus at equip dot org
Heard all across the United States,Canada, and around the world. This
is the Bible answer Man broadcast withHank Annigraph Hank as President of the Christian
Research Institute at CRI. Our desireis to equip you not only to defend
the historic Christian faith, but tobecome a winsome witness to a spiritually hungry
(00:28):
but skeptical world, because life andtruth matter. To learn more or to
find resources to help you grow ingrace, call eight eight eight seven thousand
CROI or go online to equip dotorg. That's equip dot org. The
following program was pre recorded and nowhere's Hank canagraph. As Americans celebrate independent
(00:54):
State, which commemorates the birth ofour nation, we do will to remind
ourselves of the fundamental purpose of theUnited States, as set forth in the
pre Emble to the Constitution, toform a more perfect union, to establish
(01:15):
justice, to ensure domestic tranquility,provide for the common defense, promote the
general welfare, and secure the blessingsof liberty to ourselves and to our posterity.
Today it is well worth reflecting onthe fact that as citizens in the
(01:40):
United States of America, which isa true liberal democracy, we can as
yet form political parties, we canvote, we can run for elected office,
and petition the government for a redressof grievances. Today's special Guests flows
for Francis Beckwith has well said thatChristians in our nation are uniquely blessed,
(02:07):
blessed with with opportunities to shape theircommunities in ways that were absent in previous
generations. Although the Bible does notsay a whole lot about the role of
a Christian citizen and his relationship tothe state, Scripture does communicate principles that
(02:29):
provide us with insight on the scopeof your and my responsibility in the context
of a liberal democracy. Christians haveto use their freedom wisely. They have
to behave honorably before those who haveas yet to believe in our Lord.
(02:55):
And we must as Christians, respectthe rule of law, and not only
that, but the authorities put inplace to protect such law, and that
for the sake of the common good. As Orthodox Christians living in America,
(03:15):
we are truly blessed to live ata time, to live at a place
where, unlike millions of fellow believersaround the world, we are yet free
to worship God and that in theopen. Moreover, at this critical juncture
(03:37):
in history, we most fervently pray, pray that our freedom to worship will
continue in the days to come.I am delighted to share with you or
a conversation I had with doctor FrancisBeckwith, a man who publishes and teaches
(04:00):
not only philosophy and religion, butjurisprudence, politics, and ethics. He
is professor of philosophy as well asChurch State Studies at Baylor University, where
he also serves as Associate director ofthe Graduate Program in Philosophy an affiliate professor
(04:25):
of political science. He's the authorof many books, including the book we're
going to focus on during today's broadcast, a book titled Politics for Christians subtitled
State as Soulcraft. Doctor Francis Beckwithexplains that in order to be wise stewards
(04:47):
of the gift of self government withinthe context of liberal democracy, Christians must
understand not only what their theol pologyteaches about their obligations to the wider community,
but also to understand both the natureof their government as well as its
(05:10):
political system. Those Christians have tobe, in the words of Jesus whise
as serpents and harmless as doves.So join me now. I discussed what
is essential to know about our particulargovernment with philosopher and author doctor Francis Beckweth.
(05:32):
Francis, let's talk about the titleof your book, state Craft as
soul craft. What does that mean. Well, it's a shorthand way of
saying what Aristotle taught, the ancientGreek philosopher, and that actually was picked
up by most thinkers in politics oftentoil. Really, the modern age,
(05:57):
and that is politics is not justabout having an orderly society, enforcing criminal
law and contracts, which, ofcourse it does involve all those sorts of
things. It also is about makingsure that people are at least allowed to
be good, not just good interms of relation to the civil and criminal
(06:21):
law and the political institutions, butbeing good citizens and good people. That
is statecraft. The role of thestate is to sort of form the soul.
Now, of course, as aChristian, I don't believe that government
saves you. But of course,living in a regime where let's say you
(06:43):
have religious liberty, or you livein a regime that is at least favorable
deferential to faith, you're more likelyto flourish as not only an individual,
but as part of a community ofother individuals that are flourishing. So staatecraft
is ohcraft is simply saying that thelaw, the government to public institutions make
(07:05):
us who we are. And thisis the part that I think a lot
of people don't grasp, is thateven if the government says we're not interested
in soul craft, it does doit anyway. It's just the very nature
of a public institution to inform peopleabout what is good, true, and
beautiful. Even if you happen tolive in a nation like most Western nations
(07:28):
that claim to be neutral on moralquestions, the government really can't be neutral
on such questions. It's going to, in one way or another, tell
us what is good, true,and beautiful, and it's going to shape
the souls and its citizens by doingso. You mentioned the word politics just
a moment ago. What is theetymology of the word politics. Well,
politics comes from a Greek word polis, which means the city, and so
(07:56):
it involves in a sense the community, and not just as a collection of
individuals, but as an entity thatis greater than those individuals. So for
that reason, politics, at leastthe way I define it, in its
way it's been traditionally understood, ismore than just let's say, electoral politics.
(08:18):
So we think of, for example, in twenty twenty yind presidential election,
and it's just about politics. Well, politics doesn't just involve elections and
electioneering and voting. It also involvesthe sorts of kind of informal rules that
arise in neighborhoods right or are localordinances. Any sort of association that involves
(08:43):
some set of rules that transcend theindividuals is in a sense political. In
a sense, the family is akind of political institution in that sense,
and this is why Aristotle taught thatthe family is sort of the beginning of
the city, or the building blockof the city's in itself a city.
(09:03):
In fact, he says that it'snot a perfect state, because in order
to have a perfect state, youneed more than just one family. You
need a collection of families that havemembers who do all sorts of things that
none of us can do on ourown. This is why we have different
professions and you know, jobs,and you know talents and so forth,
(09:26):
And of course political institutions arise sothat those activities can be protected and sustained
in an orderly fashion. But yeah, politics is, in terms of its
etymology, just refers to kind ofthe simple word the city. But the
city, you know, is notin the sort of modern way of city,
but just any sort of collection ofindividuals that have a humanitarian life together.
(09:50):
You know, politics is really connotative, isn't it. I mean a
lot of people will say I'm nota politician because of all of the baggage
now now that is attached to thatword, But if you think about a
denotatively, it gives you completely adifferent perspective. Yes, It's like when
people say that they don't like lobbyists. I joke with my students about this.
(10:13):
Anytime somebody's running for offices, you'llget something like a mailor or something
advertised on social media and says,I'm not like the Zogo politicians. I
won't be controlled by lobbyists. AndI will ask my students how many of
you have money in the bank,and of course they'll raise their hand and
go, oh, you have alobbyist. No, your bank has a
lobbyist. Is that you're all studentshere at Baylor, right? Guess what
(10:35):
I hate to inform you Keller hasa lobbyist. You know, it's part
of the nature of living in afree society in which we have representative government
for people to actually be involved withpolitics. I mean, what's the alternative,
you know, the alternative is tunanny. Don't go away. We'll be
right back and rejoin. Hank Catagraphsconversation with doctor Francis Beckwith What roles should
(11:01):
Christian citizens take in a liberal democracy? What is the proper separation of church
and state? What place should bemade for natural rights and the moral law
in the governance of a nation.How a nation answers these questions profoundly impacts
whether the government under which its citizenslive is just or unjust. In our
(11:22):
increasingly post Christian world, followers ofChrist must not relinquish politics to the unbelieving
world. Read Politics for Christians stateCraft as soul Craft by doctor Francis Beckwith.
To receive your copy of Politics forChristians, call eight eight eight seven
thousand CRII and make a gift tosupport the Christian Research Institute's life changing outreaches
(11:48):
eight eight eight seven thousand CRII orvisit us at equip dot org. The
Complete Bible answer Book Collector's Edition isthe comprehensive collection of the most often asked
questions Hank Hannigraph has received throughout hisfour decades as host of the Bible answer
(12:11):
Man broadcast. With more than halfa million copies already in print, this
newly revised and expanded Collector's Edition helpedseekers and skeptics alike sort through the truth
on topics such as reliability of theBible, religions and cults, the resurrection
and afterlife, and many more issuesvital to a better understanding of God in
(12:33):
Christ and our relationship to Him.To receive your copy of the Complete Bible
answer Book Collector's Edition, Revised andExpanded, call eight eight eight seven thousand
CRII and make a gift to supportthe Christian Research Institute's life changing outreaches eight
eight eight seven thousand CRII or visitus at EQUIP dot org. The number
(13:01):
of wolves surrounding the Christian flock isgrowing, and they relish nothing more than
Docile's sheep, utterly incapable of defendingthemselves from militant secularists at home to militant
Islamists abroad. The assaults on BiblicalChristianity are growing dangerously, but Christian research
institutes Support Team members aren't in favorof feeding these wolves. Instead, each
(13:24):
day they're making possible an array ofoutreaches that defang these wolfpacks with solid arguments
and evidence that have stood the testof time. What's more, Support Team
members are equipping themselves with criis equippingEssentials, a handpicked collection of the best
apologetics tools around. Your selection ofresources are just our way of saying thanks.
(13:46):
To learn more about the benefits ofmembership, simply visit equip dot org.
Once again, that's equip dot org. According to Politics for Christians by
Francis Beckwith a candidate who embraces Christianideals even if he or she is not
(14:07):
a Christian is a candidate that aChristian can support with a clear conscience.
Christians in America had the historically uniquepower to enact laws that advance the common
good and must take this special obligationseriously by using good judgment while voting and
supporting legislation and political candidates. Thisis not to say that Christians will always
(14:30):
agree on what policies and candidates representthe best option to advance the common good,
but there is no doubt that Christianshave a biblical mandate to advance it.
To receive your copy of Politics forChristians Statecraft as soul Craft, call
eight eight eight seven thousand CRII andmake a gift to support the Christian Research
(14:50):
Institutes Life Changing Outreaches eight eight eightseven thousand CRII or visit us at equipped
dot org. Well, let's rejoinHank Hantagraph and doctor Francis beckwith as they
(15:11):
continue their conversation. You know,one of the most helpful parts of your
book, Politics for Christians, atleast from a personal perspective, and other
people have indicated this to me aswell, is where you explain what a
liberal democracy is. A lot ofpeople when they hear the word liberal have
(15:31):
all kinds of ideas of what thatmight mean. And the same thing is
true with democracy. So explain bothparts, the liberal part and the democracy
part of a liberal democracy. Yeah, so let me just start with the
second part, democracy, because typicallywhen you hear the word democracy, you
think of popular vote. Right,everything's run by majority vote, and so
(15:54):
people tend to think and rightfully.You'll also hear, you know, I've
listened to talk radio once in awhile, people say we don't live in
a democracy, and what they meanto say is this, we don't live
in a nation that votes on everything. You know, we don't vote on
every law. That is to say, as individuals, right, we vote
(16:15):
people into office that represent us.That we're democracy, at least the way
it's been traditionally. Honestaid liberal democracydoesn't mean that everything is voted on.
It simply refers to the kind ofequality that human beings share. That is
to say, I am just asmuch a citizen as the President of the
(16:37):
United States. We don't live ina monarchy. I oftentimes tell my students
when I went to law school twentyyears ago, I called it the Great
democratizing Experience. And what I meantby that was I went to law school.
I had a PhD in philosophy,and I thought I was going to
just ace everything, and I washumbled and I realized that I was just
(17:00):
one of fifty students, and towardsclass, we were all equal. So
that sense of democracy is of equalitythat we have. But it doesn't mean
that we vote on everything, becausethat would reduce to mob rule. And
this is why at least of theUnited States and in the American founding,
we have a constitution that limits thepower of groups for the purpose of securing
(17:29):
that equality. So imagine if wedid vote on everything directly, you would
have cases where if you had popularenthusiasms, you could have tyranny right because
you could have a charity of amajority, and that would technically be at
least to kind of rough democracy.But that gets us to the first part
of liberal democracy. The word liberalreally means liberty. That is, that
(17:55):
there are certain fundamental liberties that thegovernment is ombligated to protect. And we
typically think of those liberties, atleast in the United States, in our
Bill of Rights. But even priorto the Bill of Rights being put into
the Constitution, the understanding was thatthe Constitution was to limit the federal government
(18:17):
so that communities throughout the United Statesand the differing states can pass laws to
advance the common good of those communities. And so when I use the word
liberal, I don't mean it inthe sense of like liberal versus conservative,
which is the kind of way inwhich we talk in our popular politics.
I mean liberal in the sense thatthere are fundamental liberties and so in a
(18:41):
sense, everyone today, virtually everyoneI'm sure, there are likely exceptions to
this, but today, if aperson calls themselves a liberal or a conservative,
in a way, we're all kindof liberals, right, I mean,
we all kind of believe that theyare fundamental liberties. To be sure,
there are deep disagreements on certain issues, but that's the way in which
(19:02):
I explained liberal democracy. It's notsimply, at least the democracy part.
It's not simply you know, thiskind of fifty percent plus one is how
we determine the law. And inthe context of America, the founders understood
that that would be just a recipefor tyranny. You needed a variety of
other institutions that were not the resultof direct election. So we had sort
(19:27):
of the federal government, the USSenate, which at the time was not
directly elected. They were chosen bystate legislatures. And you had the representation
direct representation in the House of Representatives. You also had the court system.
Plus you've also had the different states, and so the founders kind of assumed
that human beings, if given toomuch power, have a tendency to be
(19:51):
tyrannic owned so they created the systemin which they thought it would be more
difficult for any one group or individualto take over. So what some of
us today or some people will say, oh, we've got too much gridlock.
The Sounders would say gridlock is goodbecause gridlock means that people will be
forced to have to negotiate disagreements ina way that would result in compromise and
(20:18):
so forth. Of course, thequestion today is have we truly sustained that
kind of government? And that's anargument that people are currently having to be
sure. We often as Christians talkabout the art and science of biblical interpretation.
Is there an art and a scienceto interpreting the Constitution properly? And
(20:38):
are there different perspectives? Some peopleare originalists, other people think that the
Constitution is a living document. Talkabout that a little bit. Yeah,
there's different schools of thought on that. The view that I'm sure most of
your listeners have heard about is calledoriginalism, which is a view that's associated
with the late Justice Antonin Scalia andJustice Amy Cony Barrett, and it's the
(21:03):
view that we should interpret the Constitutionas it was originally understood. A lot
of people misunderstand this. They thinkthat it's the view of original intent,
and in fact Scalia himself did notlike the term original intent because his thinking
was, it's not what the authorsor founders intended, it's what the words
(21:26):
meant. So to give an example, imagine when the fourteenth Amendment was passed,
where it says that once life,liberty, or a property cannot be
taken without the process of law.And then there's another part that says that
the government has an obligation to enforcethe law equally. It's sometimes called the
equal Protection Clause. Now imagine thatthere were some people, clear there were
(21:49):
people who wrote who are involved withthe Fourteenth Amendment who thought that the equal
Protection Clause permitted racial segregation, andso they're intent was that it not be
extended or thought to make racial segregationillegal. Well, it took almost one
hundred years, but in nineteen fiftyfour, the Supreme Court said that precisely
(22:11):
what it means, that is,people should be treated with equal protection under
the law. And even though therewere clearly people that wrote the fourteenth of
Theomen who were segregationists or would havebeen segregationists, it doesn't matter what the
words mean, not what people intendedthem to me right, or what they
(22:33):
speculated how they'd be applied in thefuture. So I think another example I
use it my students in class.Imagine you're asked by your boss. Let's
say you're the partner in a lawfirm, and you're asked by the senior
partner to chair a search committee fora new hireing. And the boss comes
in he said, I want youto hire the best person. Oh and
(22:55):
by the way, my son isapplying. So when he says, in
his mind the best person, hisintent is that you hire his son.
Well, it turns out, let'ssay you don't hire his son, because
it turns out he's not really thebest person. So it's what the words
meant at the time, not whatwas in the head of the people who
(23:18):
authored the fourteenth Amendment. And thisis not to say that there aren't going
to be disagreements among originalists. Thereare, to be sure. Now some
of the other views. There's aview that's associated with some more liberal justices,
which is the view that it's sometimescalled the living constitution view, the
term coined by the late Justice Brennan, and it's the view that the Constitution
(23:45):
sort of has to change with thetimes. And what's unusual about that view.
I think a problem with that viewis that it tends to buy into
this understanding that history is always gettingbetter, progressing. So, to give
you an example from Justice Brennan's reasoning, in a couple of cases involving the
(24:07):
death penalty, he argued that theEighth Amendment, which prohibits cruel and unusual
punishment, he says, well,today we recognize the death penalty as being
cruel and unusual, so therefore thedeath penalty is unconstitutional. Now Justice Clea
has pointed out, or pointed outin civil writings, the Constitution itself presupposes
(24:30):
the death penalty. It says thatthe government can't take life, liberty,
or property without due process of law. Well, if you can take life
with due process, then clearly thedeath penalty is accepted. And the other
problem with Blennan's view is that he'simagining that somehow we're going to become a
(24:51):
more gentler and kinder culture as timedevelops. But if let's say we become
a more barbaric culture, and somebodysays, well, I don't think cruel
and unusual should exclude, you know, torturing people, because after all,
you know, we're progressing, andwe believe torture is good now. So
(25:14):
Scalia's point is that we have tolook at what was meant by cruel and
unusual when that was passed at theend of the eighteenth century, because it
may not be the case that JusticeBretan's future where we become less barbaric,
is in fact going to be thecase. Better that we tightly teather the
meaning of that amendment to what wasintended at the time. If in fact
(25:38):
we want to change it, wehave an amendment process to do. Then
thank you for listening to the specialedition of the Bible answer Man Broadcast with
Hank anagraph to hear this handk unpluggedpodcast interview with Professor Francis Beckwe in its
entirety. Go to equip dot org, iTunes, or wherever you listen to
(25:59):
your favor podcasts. In appreciation foryour vital gift to help strengthen and expand
the life changing outreaches of the ChristianResearch Institute, Hank would like to send
you doctor Beckwith's book Politics for ChristiansStatecraft as Soul Craft. Simply call eight
eight eight seven thousand CROI and makea gift to support CRI's life changing outreaches.
(26:25):
Eight eight eight seven thousand CROI orvisit equip dot org. That's equip
dot org. You can also writeto CURI at Post Office Box eighty five
hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina,two eight two seven one. The preceding
program was pre recorded. The Bibleanswer Man Broadcast is funded by listeners like
(26:48):
you. We're on the air becausetruth matters and life matters more. The
Complete Bible answer Book Collector's Edition isthe comprehensive collection of the most often asked
questions Hank Hannigraph has received throughout hisfour decades as host of the Bible answer
(27:11):
Man Broadcast. With more than halfa million copies already in print, this
newly revised and expanded Collector's Edition helpedseekers and skeptics alike sort through the truth
on topics such as reliability of theBible, religions and cults, the resurrection
and afterlife, and many more issuesvital to a better understanding of God in
(27:33):
Christ and our relationship to Him.To receive your copy of the Complete Bible
answer Book Collector's Edition, Revised andExpanded, call eight eight eight seven thousand
CRII and make a gift to supportthe Christian Research Institute's life changing outreaches eight
eight eight seven thousand CRII or visitus at equip dot org
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