August 6, 2025 • 28 mins
On today’s Bible Answer Man broadcast (08/06/25), we pick up where we ended on our previous broadcast and present more of an episode of the Hank Unplugged podcast. Hank is talking with Dr. Marcellino D’Ambrosio, author of When the Church Was Young: Voices of the Early Fathers. Hank and Dr. D’Ambrosio discuss the First Apology of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and a defense against the heresy of Gnosticism, the coextensive nature between tradition and scripture, the teachings of Clement of Alexandria equipping Christians to evangelize the Gospel, and Origen of Alexandria and the transformative nature of union with Christ.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the Christian Research Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. This
is the Bible answer Man Broadcast with Hank Anigraph. We're
on the air because truth matters and life matters. More
on today's special edition of The Bible answer Man. We
pick up where we ended on our previous broadcast and
present more of the pre recorded episode of the Hank
(00:29):
Unplugged podcast. Hank is talking with doctor Marcellino de Ambrosio,
author of When the Church Was Young Voices of the
Early Fathers. Let's now rejoin Hank Annigraph and doctor Dembrosio
in their conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
One of the most noteworthy and early of these apologists
was justin Martyr his ultimate act of witness, which you
have cautified in the book where he's going to be marty,
and he doesn't shy away from martyrdom or death. Rather
he gives an apology for the faith, the defense of
(01:06):
the faith.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
He's rather bold, isn't he. Somebody recorded his dialogue with
the prefect Arousticus and so we have that. It's a
precious thing to have from around the year one sixty
six AD. But he's pretty strong, absolutely, you know, he
doesn't just think he doesn't just believe. He knows that
(01:28):
his God is the true God and that Jesus is
the true Savior. And he says, we ask nothing better
than to suffer for the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ,
and so to be saved. If we do this, we
can stand confidently and quietly before the fearful judgment seat
of that same God and Savior. When in accordance with
divine ordering, all this world will pass away. So he
(01:50):
doesn't mince his words, and I just want to say
that he did something very courageous. It was a capital
offense to profess Christianity, so Christian meetings and liturgy word secret.
But Justin moved to Rome and opened his home as
a public seminar place where anyone could come and learn
about the Christian faith. And it was that ultimately that
(02:13):
led to his capture, his denunciation from another philosopher who
is jealous of him, and he ends up being martyred.
But he's an absolutely courageous man.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Another great apologist for the faith, following on the footsteps
of the Apostolic fathers Irenaeus. He writes a book titled
Against Heresies, and he had a connection with Polycarp Polycarppercur
was a disciple of John, and Irenaeus may have heard
Polycarp actually speak. So you have here a man who
(02:49):
makes a sterling defense against gnosticism. And I was hoping
that you could spend just a few moments unpacking gnosticism
for people who don't have a ha and what that is?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Sure, well, we have an idea of the New Age
movement now that kind of blends things exotic ideas from
the East together maybe with some Christian ideas, and it
may sound or look spiritual or Christian, but ends up
as you probe it, you know, you realize it's not
at all Christianity. And so that kind of a movement
happened in the second century, and it's a movement that
(03:24):
came from the East, and it played on the fact
that people really felt the need of salvation, and the
idea really of salvation in the Nastik movement was we've
got to get away from this material world and the
material of the human body. You know, yeah, you know,
all this gross flesh that we carry around and birth
(03:47):
and death and you know, having babies and eating and
all these things are kind of disgusting and we need
to try to get away from that into the spiritual realms.
And the idea was, you know, a few of us
really did descend from the spiritual realm. When we got
trapped in these bodies, we got to find our way
back to the pure spiritual realm, and there needs to
be someone who comes from that realm to teach us.
(04:09):
So Christian Gnostics took Jesus as that figure, and he
really wasn't God made flesh. He was God like an angel,
appearing as a phantasm and teaching us, not about He
didn't die for us. No, he came to teach us
certain passwords and secret things that will help us navigate
(04:31):
our way after we leave this body into the celestial sphere.
It was really kind of crazy stuff, and they basically
the Christian Gnostics said, well, yeah, it's not in those
books that you think came from the apostles. We have
our secret tradition. Jesus knew that most people couldn't handle
this stuff, so he just told a few of choice
disciples and we have that tradition. And that's fascinating because
(04:55):
the appeal of the Gnostics was to a secret tradition,
and you'd think that Iurineus would fight him by saying
no scripture alone, no secret edition, But instead he says, no,
we have the true Apostolic tradition, because Jesus, if he's
going to teach anything, is going to teach his disciples
who are closest to him. And we know all the
(05:17):
churches they founded, and the men who are now bishops
in those churches descend in a continuous line. They go
right back to those apostles, and none of them know
anything about any of this nonsense. So clearly we have
the truth about Jesus because we have the authentic tradition.
So it's very important to see the importance of tradition
(05:37):
in the apologetics of the early Church in trying to
determine what is authentic Christianity. And remember, by this time
there's not a New Testament codified in a book like
we have it now in a volume. But interestingly enough,
we also find in Ireneus he's the first writer in
which we find virtually every book of the New Testament
(05:59):
that we now have as cited and used, with the
exception I think of Thurn John and maybe the Letter
of Jude. I'm just speaking from memory now. I think
I have it in my book. But so he's very,
very important a witness to the development of what we
now call the New Testament canon, but at the same
time the theology of tradition and Apostolic succession.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, I think that's beautifully said, because for Erinaeus, the
sacred Commission of the Apostolic Fathers was the proper transmission
of Apostolic tradition from one generation to the next, from
the Holy Fathers onward to the eucharistic assembly of every
local church in every successive generation. And what I got
(06:45):
out of Irenaeus, and even out of reading your book,
is that holy tradition of Apostolic Fathers is not an
independent instance. It was not a complementary source of faith.
Ecclesiastical understanding couldn't add anything to the scripture, but it
was the only means to ascertain to disclose the true
(07:06):
meaning of scripture. And so tradition was the authentic interpretation
of scripture, and in that sense it was coextensive with scripture.
Tradition was actually scripture rightly understood. And this is one
of the things that Irenaeus does. He's, as you said earlier,
(07:26):
not making a false dichotomy between holy tradition and Scripture,
but seeing the co extensive link between the two.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Absolutely indeed, yes, And this is also very important again
that tradition helps us discern which books are authentic and
contain the Apostolic faith, because remember, there was a Gospel
of Thomas, and there were actually two, an infancy Gospel
of Thomas and a Gospel of Thomas that was lost
(07:56):
that is mentioned by Ireneus, but it was dug up
in nineteen forty six forty seven in Egypt, and Nakamadi
finds and so you know that guy who's to say
that that's not from Thomas, well, you know, it's pretty simple.
None of the Apostolic churches knew about this. It doesn't
jive with the faith. It does not jive with the tradition,
(08:20):
the canon of tradition, which makes the cross the central
thing in the whole story of Jesus. The Gospel of
Thomas by the Gnostics is just this collection of sayings.
There is no cross, so anyway, but aaroneas kind of
helps us understand that it's what books are really in
the New Testament. Based on the rule of tradition, this
couldn't have been from Thomas because it doesn't have the
(08:43):
canon of tradition, sacred tradition. It doesn't have the cross
in it, and it's never been read in any apostolic
any of the of the churches. So tradition is very,
very important for ascertaining what are authentic and legitimate books
that were inspired by Holy Spirit and do go back
to Apostolic times and teaching.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well. Other thing I think we ought to say about
Ireneus is that he was the first to systematize the
exchange formula of salvation. You know, the word of God
or Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through his transcendent love,
become what we are, that he might bring us to
be even what he is himself. So you know the
(09:23):
whole early church notion that Christ, his kenosis becomes our theosis,
his emptying becomes our filling. So early on in Church
history you have what Athanasius so memorably codified as God
became man so that man might become God. Not in
terms of the essence of God, but in terms of
(09:45):
participating in the energies of God.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yes, as it says in the letter of Peter second
Peter one, you know that we're calling to be sharers
in the divine nature that idea is very very clear
and developed beautifully in Iraneus Nobility and the restoration of humanity.
You know, God the Lord didn't just come that we
be forgiven and that our sinsby wiped off God's record book,
(10:11):
but he came to really change us beginning even now
in this life. So I think that's really critical, and
you see it beautifully expressed in Ireneus, And you're right.
Erineus is the first one really to try to give
a coherent explanation of the entire face. So he's kind
of the proto systematic theologian in a certain way. In
(10:33):
his exposition, his idea was, you know that the best
way to fight narcissism is to get the anadote to
really lay out the truth in its fullness. And I
love him for that.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, And his defense against gnosticism didn't go unheeded, because
not long after Against Heresies was written, gnosticism actually faded
from the picture.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Don't go away and just a few moments will rejoin.
Hank Anagraph's conversation with doctor Marcollino Dembrosio, Sir Isaac Newton said,
if I have seen further, it is by standing on
the shoulders of giants. As Christians, we indeed stand on
the shoulders of giants. Unfortunately, many modern Christians barely know
(11:16):
the names of the early Church fathers. If you're curious
about these remarkable early Christians upon whose shoulders we stand today,
doctor Marcollino Dembrosio powerfully tells their stories in When the
Church Was Young Voices of the Early Fathers. To receive
your copy of When the Church Was Young for yourself
(11:37):
or as a terrific gift to a friend or loved one,
simply call eight eight eight seven thousand croi and make
a gift to support CRI's life changing outreaches eight eight
eight seven thousand croi or visit equip dot org.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Do you ever wonder what the early Church was like?
In When the Church Was Young, Doctor Marcellino Dembrosio dusts
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early Church heroes Augustine, Athanasius, Chris System and many more.
Long before the words Catholic, Orthodox, and Evangelical referred to
distinct and separated communities, the fathers of the Church gloried
(12:25):
in one faith, the United Body of Christ, which can
be none other than Evangelical, Catholic, and Orthodox. It's time
to rediscover our common inheritance and return to the days
when the Church was young to experience new growth that
will produce new fruit, new unity and joy. To receive
your copy of when the Church was young voices of
(12:45):
the early Fathers. Call eight eight eight seven thousand CRI
and make a gift to support the Christian Research Institutes
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Speaker 1 (14:00):
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(14:45):
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(15:07):
rejoin Hank Hanagraph and doctor Marcolino Dembrosio in their conversation
Yeah and.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
His defense against gnosticism didn't go unheeded, because not long
after Against Heresies was written, Gnosticism actually faded from the picture.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
It really did. So we owe Ireneus a great debt,
a great debt of gratitude, and it's I think he's
beautiful to read. On my website, I have lots of
excerpts from Iraneus, just bite sized little excerpts that are
some of his gems. I just love to share them
with people.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Of course, gnosticism has been resurrected again and again. One
of the latest permutations was Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code,
which resurrects the claim of a secret tradition that is
earlier and more faithful than the New Testament scripture. I
wrote a book with a co author called The Da
Vinci Code Factor Fiction, and doctor Paul Meyer, professor of
(16:02):
ancient history. He and I collaborated wrote a book together,
and that was again against a newer permutation of the
gnostic heresy. So these kinds of heresies, you think they're eradicated,
but like a virus, they reappear.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
That's right, mutated. They keep coming back. As we hear
Kohela say, there's nothing new under the sun. That's kind
of the way heresies are.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Clement of Alexandria. I would be remiss if we didn't
spend any time on this great apologist. And when I
think is cool about Clement of Alexandria, we're just talking
about gnostics. And a point you make in the book
is that words are not unifical, they're equivocal. They take
on the meaning that the context allows them to have.
(16:50):
And this is one of the things that Clement of
Alexandra did. He talked about the true gnostic or the
Christian gnostics, so he uses the language of gnosticism, but
he puts it within a proper context, and he points
out that the heretical gnostics were elitists. They kept their
knowledge a secret, but the true Gnostics shares that truth
(17:13):
with anyone and with everyone.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Absolutely, we're not just called to just believe in Christ.
We're called to enter into a deeper and deeper penetration
of the truth of who Jesus is. So we're called
to be growing. I love his idea of the Christian life.
It's not like, you know, you get saved and that's it,
and then you try to stay out of trouble. Until
(17:36):
you die and go to heaven. It's a dynamic progression
where you're learning more and more, you're entering more fully.
You find this in Paul for sure, you know. And
when Paul says I want to know Jesus Christ and
the power flowing from his resurrection, likewise to know how
to share in his suffering by being formed into the
pattern of his death, he says that in Philippians, well,
you know, Paul said that I want to know Jesus Christ.
(17:58):
Well don't you know him or any Paul, you're in
a pop But for Paul, he never knew the Lord enough.
He discovered anew every day deeper insights into who Jesus was.
And that wasn't just a head knowledge, that was experiential knowledge.
And so I think that's what we find in Clement,
you know. And he's teaching this and it's amazing. He's
the teacher of the New Christians, and it's fascinating. This
(18:19):
school of Alexandria, this catechetical school that was late second century,
they really wanted to equip the Christians of that town,
not just to stay out of trouble again and be
decent people, and not even just personally to grow in
holiness and knowledge, but to be equipped all to be
apologists and evangelists. And that's the way they were educating
(18:41):
the people. Clement's teaching, if you're Reclement, he's teaching ordinary Christians.
So the idea of the ordinary Christian life was pretty
exalted in Alexandria. Every Christian is called to grow in
holiness and to grow in the ability to share the
Gospel with everyone, even the most sophisticated of the people
in the culture. And Alexander was a very sophisticated place.
(19:04):
It had an incredible library, and it was the center
of actually the Gnostic movement. So you know, here we
find Christians not just sheltering and circling wagons and trying
to keep the world out and being uncontaminated by the world.
They were aggressively going out and sharing the Gospel. And
in two o two, the first well Clement was in
(19:25):
charge of the Alexandrian School. There it was the first
empire wide edict against Christianity, and the edict forbade not
believing in Christ, not worshiping Christ, but in evangelizing, in
sharing Christ with others. And you know what, the Christians
would not comply, and so you know, there were a
(19:47):
lot of martyrdoms in two o two because the Christians
of Alexandria had been trained that sharing the Gospel is key.
It's part and parcel of living for Christ. You cannot
not do that. You can't just practice your religion and
not evangelize. That's part of our faith.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, yes, let me pause for just a moment for
everyone listening in, I want to say, we've gone through
a lot of names here, but each one of those
names in the book becomes a gripping, fast paced story.
It's like you're reading a novel. I quite literally can
tell you that I couldn't put the book down, and
(20:25):
for that reason, I want to make it available to
everyone listening to me right now. The book available for
those who support the ministry of the Christian Research Institute.
You can get your copy by simply writing me at
box eighty five hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina, zip code two
eight two seven one. You can also order a copy
on the web at equip dot or equip dot org.
(20:49):
Again available for those who support the ministry, we'll send
you a copy. I want to move on to Origin.
Origin is an incredible father of the faith, and I
want to spend a little time here because here's a
student of Clement of Alexandria, who was a systematic theologian
(21:10):
who coined Greek phrases and terms that we use today.
So oftentimes on the biblelant Span broadcast, I use the
phrase theanthropists. I defined it, of course, by saying the
God man or Homo Ussias. He also, by the way,
popularized the term mother of God or God bearer or theotokis.
(21:30):
That term was used before, but he popularized that. So
here you have an apologist who is so important, coining
words and phrases that are part of our vocabulary today.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
He is just an amazing character, and I have to
say he's one of my great inspirations from this era.
I'malay theologian and so identify a lot with him, who
for most of his life was a lay teacher. He
was later ordained. He was such a powerful preacher that
it's just the big around says area in the Holy
Land just wanted him to preach, and he couldn't legally
(22:05):
preach if he wasn't ordained. So they ordained him because
he wanted to hear his teaching. But he was just
so passionate about the Lord. He saw his dad dragged
off in the persecution I just mentioned in two two AD.
His dad was dragged off for refusing to stop evangelizing,
(22:25):
and Origin wanted to run after him and to die
with his father. And his mother was smart, knowing he
was modest. He was sleeping, woke up in his underwear,
and she hid his clothes to stop him from running
out on the street after his father. But he was
just so passionate. He wrote to his dad and said, Dad,
don't give in, you know, be faithful to Jesus. And
his dad did die as a martyr, and at that
(22:46):
point Origin just decided he was going to live as
sacrificially as he possibly could. He lived the very ascetic life.
He took the Council of Jesus Council in Matthew nineteen
to become a eunuch for the Kingdom of God. He
became sick for the Lord. He dedicated himself to prayer, fasting,
and teaching for the rest of his life. Ended up suffering.
(23:08):
He wasn't martyred, but he was tortured for the faith
and died as a confessor. After being so terribly weakened
by that torture. So just an amazing character. The amount
that he wrote is just mind boggling, kind of like
Saint Augustine, you know, probably almost impossible for anybody to
keep up with Origin and actually read all that he wrote.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And even beyond everything that he wrote. I think what's
so interesting about Origin is he didn't merely want to
inform us. He wanted to transform us, because this was
the pattern of Christ. Christ meets us in the Word
of God, not just to give us a bunch of information,
(23:52):
but to transform our lives, to bring us into the
fellowship of the Holy Trinity.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I love the fact that he did and separate intellectual
knowledge from that transformative knowledge of acquaintance with God. I
love the way he talks about inspiration. You know a
lot of times Christians thinking about inspiration as the Holy
Spirit whispering in the ear of the evangelist, and that's
the moment of inspiration. And so the words are authoritative.
(24:19):
But I love the fact that Origin sees the Bible
as a temple and the Holy Spirit lives in that temple,
so it's not just the author that was inspired back
in the first century. The words are in breathed. They
contain the spirit, and when we approach them in faith,
the spirit can transform us. And that's his He's a
(24:39):
great Bible scholar who did all the Hebrew. He studied Hebrew.
He lined up different Greek versions and Hebrew versions to
establish the best texts. So he did a lot of technical,
gritty work. But when push came to shove, you know,
scripture primarily is a place to meet God and to
be transformed. That was his approach to Scripture.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
So cool about your book as well. There's so many
things I love about your book. You're just an incredible writer,
by the way. But what I love is if you
read the Old Testament, you read the patriarchs, they're never airbrushed.
They're presented with all their warts and moles and wrinkles.
They're realistically presented to us. And you do the same
thing in your book. You present Origin as a genius
(25:22):
on the one hand, but you also point out that
there was chaff mixed with the wheat of Origin's genius.
In other words, we have a mixed bag here, and
you're honest enough to tell that part of the story.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh, of course. Yeah. In fact, people were in the
history of the church was so aware of the chat
that they dismissed the wheat, and so what we got
to do is go back and recover that wheat and
not discard it because there's chaff.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, we've run out of time for today's special edition
of the Bible answer Man Broadcast. Be sure to tune
in again next time when we will continue Hack Hannagraft's
conversation with doctor Marcellino Dembrosio. An appreciation for your vital
gift to help strengthen and expand the life changing outreaches
of the Christian Research Institute, Hank would like to send
(26:11):
you doctor Dembrosio's book When the Church Was Young, Voices
of the Early Fathers. Simply call eight eight eight seven
thousand CRI and make a gift to support CRI's life
changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CRI or visit
equip dot org. You can also write to CRII at
(26:34):
Post Office Box eighty five hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina, two
eight two seven one. The preceding program was pre recorded.
The Bible Answerman Broadcast is funded solely by listeners like you.
We're on the air because truth matters. And life matters more.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Do you ever wonder what the early Church was like
in when the Church was young? Doctor Marcellino Dembrosio dusts
off dry theology and brings to life the lives of
early Church heroes Augustine, Athanasius, Chris System and many more.
Long before the words Catholic, Orthodox and Evangelical referred to
distinct and separated communities, the fathers of the Church gloried
(27:25):
in one faith, the United Body of Christ, which can
be none other than Evangelical, Catholic and Orthodox. It's time
to rediscover our common inheritance and return to the days
when the Church was young, to experience new growth that
will produce new fruit, new unity and joy. To receive
your copy of When the Church was Young Voices of
(27:45):
the Early Fathers. Call eight eight eight seven thousand CRI
and make a gift to support the Christian research institutes
life changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CRII or
visit equip dot org.
From the Christian Research Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. This
is the Bible answer Man Broadcast with Hank Anigraph. We're
on the air because truth matters and life matters. More
on today's special edition of The Bible answer Man. We
pick up where we ended on our previous broadcast and
present more of the pre recorded episode of the Hank
(00:29):
Unplugged podcast. Hank is talking with doctor Marcellino de Ambrosio,
author of When the Church Was Young Voices of the
Early Fathers. Let's now rejoin Hank Annigraph and doctor Dembrosio
in their conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
One of the most noteworthy and early of these apologists
was justin Martyr his ultimate act of witness, which you
have cautified in the book where he's going to be marty,
and he doesn't shy away from martyrdom or death. Rather
he gives an apology for the faith, the defense of
(01:06):
the faith.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
He's rather bold, isn't he. Somebody recorded his dialogue with
the prefect Arousticus and so we have that. It's a
precious thing to have from around the year one sixty
six AD. But he's pretty strong, absolutely, you know, he
doesn't just think he doesn't just believe. He knows that
(01:28):
his God is the true God and that Jesus is
the true Savior. And he says, we ask nothing better
than to suffer for the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ,
and so to be saved. If we do this, we
can stand confidently and quietly before the fearful judgment seat
of that same God and Savior. When in accordance with
divine ordering, all this world will pass away. So he
(01:50):
doesn't mince his words, and I just want to say
that he did something very courageous. It was a capital
offense to profess Christianity, so Christian meetings and liturgy word secret.
But Justin moved to Rome and opened his home as
a public seminar place where anyone could come and learn
about the Christian faith. And it was that ultimately that
(02:13):
led to his capture, his denunciation from another philosopher who
is jealous of him, and he ends up being martyred.
But he's an absolutely courageous man.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Another great apologist for the faith, following on the footsteps
of the Apostolic fathers Irenaeus. He writes a book titled
Against Heresies, and he had a connection with Polycarp Polycarppercur
was a disciple of John, and Irenaeus may have heard
Polycarp actually speak. So you have here a man who
(02:49):
makes a sterling defense against gnosticism. And I was hoping
that you could spend just a few moments unpacking gnosticism
for people who don't have a ha and what that is?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Sure, well, we have an idea of the New Age
movement now that kind of blends things exotic ideas from
the East together maybe with some Christian ideas, and it
may sound or look spiritual or Christian, but ends up
as you probe it, you know, you realize it's not
at all Christianity. And so that kind of a movement
happened in the second century, and it's a movement that
(03:24):
came from the East, and it played on the fact
that people really felt the need of salvation, and the
idea really of salvation in the Nastik movement was we've
got to get away from this material world and the
material of the human body. You know, yeah, you know,
all this gross flesh that we carry around and birth
(03:47):
and death and you know, having babies and eating and
all these things are kind of disgusting and we need
to try to get away from that into the spiritual realms.
And the idea was, you know, a few of us
really did descend from the spiritual realm. When we got
trapped in these bodies, we got to find our way
back to the pure spiritual realm, and there needs to
be someone who comes from that realm to teach us.
(04:09):
So Christian Gnostics took Jesus as that figure, and he
really wasn't God made flesh. He was God like an angel,
appearing as a phantasm and teaching us, not about He
didn't die for us. No, he came to teach us
certain passwords and secret things that will help us navigate
(04:31):
our way after we leave this body into the celestial sphere.
It was really kind of crazy stuff, and they basically
the Christian Gnostics said, well, yeah, it's not in those
books that you think came from the apostles. We have
our secret tradition. Jesus knew that most people couldn't handle
this stuff, so he just told a few of choice
disciples and we have that tradition. And that's fascinating because
(04:55):
the appeal of the Gnostics was to a secret tradition,
and you'd think that Iurineus would fight him by saying
no scripture alone, no secret edition, But instead he says, no,
we have the true Apostolic tradition, because Jesus, if he's
going to teach anything, is going to teach his disciples
who are closest to him. And we know all the
(05:17):
churches they founded, and the men who are now bishops
in those churches descend in a continuous line. They go
right back to those apostles, and none of them know
anything about any of this nonsense. So clearly we have
the truth about Jesus because we have the authentic tradition.
So it's very important to see the importance of tradition
(05:37):
in the apologetics of the early Church in trying to
determine what is authentic Christianity. And remember, by this time
there's not a New Testament codified in a book like
we have it now in a volume. But interestingly enough,
we also find in Ireneus he's the first writer in
which we find virtually every book of the New Testament
(05:59):
that we now have as cited and used, with the
exception I think of Thurn John and maybe the Letter
of Jude. I'm just speaking from memory now. I think
I have it in my book. But so he's very,
very important a witness to the development of what we
now call the New Testament canon, but at the same
time the theology of tradition and Apostolic succession.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, I think that's beautifully said, because for Erinaeus, the
sacred Commission of the Apostolic Fathers was the proper transmission
of Apostolic tradition from one generation to the next, from
the Holy Fathers onward to the eucharistic assembly of every
local church in every successive generation. And what I got
(06:45):
out of Irenaeus, and even out of reading your book,
is that holy tradition of Apostolic Fathers is not an
independent instance. It was not a complementary source of faith.
Ecclesiastical understanding couldn't add anything to the scripture, but it
was the only means to ascertain to disclose the true
(07:06):
meaning of scripture. And so tradition was the authentic interpretation
of scripture, and in that sense it was coextensive with scripture.
Tradition was actually scripture rightly understood. And this is one
of the things that Irenaeus does. He's, as you said earlier,
(07:26):
not making a false dichotomy between holy tradition and Scripture,
but seeing the co extensive link between the two.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Absolutely indeed, yes, And this is also very important again
that tradition helps us discern which books are authentic and
contain the Apostolic faith, because remember, there was a Gospel
of Thomas, and there were actually two, an infancy Gospel
of Thomas and a Gospel of Thomas that was lost
(07:56):
that is mentioned by Ireneus, but it was dug up
in nineteen forty six forty seven in Egypt, and Nakamadi
finds and so you know that guy who's to say
that that's not from Thomas, well, you know, it's pretty simple.
None of the Apostolic churches knew about this. It doesn't
jive with the faith. It does not jive with the tradition,
(08:20):
the canon of tradition, which makes the cross the central
thing in the whole story of Jesus. The Gospel of
Thomas by the Gnostics is just this collection of sayings.
There is no cross, so anyway, but aaroneas kind of
helps us understand that it's what books are really in
the New Testament. Based on the rule of tradition, this
couldn't have been from Thomas because it doesn't have the
(08:43):
canon of tradition, sacred tradition. It doesn't have the cross
in it, and it's never been read in any apostolic
any of the of the churches. So tradition is very,
very important for ascertaining what are authentic and legitimate books
that were inspired by Holy Spirit and do go back
to Apostolic times and teaching.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well. Other thing I think we ought to say about
Ireneus is that he was the first to systematize the
exchange formula of salvation. You know, the word of God
or Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through his transcendent love,
become what we are, that he might bring us to
be even what he is himself. So you know the
(09:23):
whole early church notion that Christ, his kenosis becomes our theosis,
his emptying becomes our filling. So early on in Church
history you have what Athanasius so memorably codified as God
became man so that man might become God. Not in
terms of the essence of God, but in terms of
(09:45):
participating in the energies of God.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yes, as it says in the letter of Peter second
Peter one, you know that we're calling to be sharers
in the divine nature that idea is very very clear
and developed beautifully in Iraneus Nobility and the restoration of humanity.
You know, God the Lord didn't just come that we
be forgiven and that our sinsby wiped off God's record book,
(10:11):
but he came to really change us beginning even now
in this life. So I think that's really critical, and
you see it beautifully expressed in Ireneus, And you're right.
Erineus is the first one really to try to give
a coherent explanation of the entire face. So he's kind
of the proto systematic theologian in a certain way. In
(10:33):
his exposition, his idea was, you know that the best
way to fight narcissism is to get the anadote to
really lay out the truth in its fullness. And I
love him for that.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, And his defense against gnosticism didn't go unheeded, because
not long after Against Heresies was written, gnosticism actually faded
from the picture.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Don't go away and just a few moments will rejoin.
Hank Anagraph's conversation with doctor Marcollino Dembrosio, Sir Isaac Newton said,
if I have seen further, it is by standing on
the shoulders of giants. As Christians, we indeed stand on
the shoulders of giants. Unfortunately, many modern Christians barely know
(11:16):
the names of the early Church fathers. If you're curious
about these remarkable early Christians upon whose shoulders we stand today,
doctor Marcollino Dembrosio powerfully tells their stories in When the
Church Was Young Voices of the Early Fathers. To receive
your copy of When the Church Was Young for yourself
(11:37):
or as a terrific gift to a friend or loved one,
simply call eight eight eight seven thousand croi and make
a gift to support CRI's life changing outreaches eight eight
eight seven thousand croi or visit equip dot org.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Do you ever wonder what the early Church was like?
In When the Church Was Young, Doctor Marcellino Dembrosio dusts
off dry theology and brings to life the lives of
early Church heroes Augustine, Athanasius, Chris System and many more.
Long before the words Catholic, Orthodox, and Evangelical referred to
distinct and separated communities, the fathers of the Church gloried
(12:25):
in one faith, the United Body of Christ, which can
be none other than Evangelical, Catholic, and Orthodox. It's time
to rediscover our common inheritance and return to the days
when the Church was young to experience new growth that
will produce new fruit, new unity and joy. To receive
your copy of when the Church was young voices of
(12:45):
the early Fathers. Call eight eight eight seven thousand CRI
and make a gift to support the Christian Research Institutes
Life Changing Outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CRII or
visit equip dot org. Truth Matters, Life Matters More details
Hank Hanigraff's personal pilgrimage from his long defensive truth to
(13:08):
his discovery that life matters more. Essentially, two books in one.
Part one equips Christians to defend the essential truths of
the historic Christian faith. Part two explains why truth is
necessary but hardly sufficient. That the map is not the territory,
the menu is not the meal. We are created to
experience life to the full through union with God in Christ.
(13:30):
Is there more to the Christian life than what you
are experiencing? Truth matters, Life Matters More unveils the unexpected
beauty of an authentic Christian life. To receive Truth Matters,
Life Matters more for yourself or as a terrific gift
to a friend or loved one called eight eight eight
seven thousand CRI and make a gift to support the
Christian Research Institute's life changing outreaches eight eight eight seven
(13:53):
thousand CRI or visit us online at equipp dot org.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Bertrand Russell famously said most people would rather die than think,
and many of them do not so with CRI Support
Team members. Support Team members are not only serious thinkers,
but their membership and CRI's Support Team helps to equip
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(14:22):
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(14:45):
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equip dot org. Once again, that's equip dot org. Let's
(15:07):
rejoin Hank Hanagraph and doctor Marcolino Dembrosio in their conversation
Yeah and.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
His defense against gnosticism didn't go unheeded, because not long
after Against Heresies was written, Gnosticism actually faded from the picture.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
It really did. So we owe Ireneus a great debt,
a great debt of gratitude, and it's I think he's
beautiful to read. On my website, I have lots of
excerpts from Iraneus, just bite sized little excerpts that are
some of his gems. I just love to share them
with people.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Of course, gnosticism has been resurrected again and again. One
of the latest permutations was Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code,
which resurrects the claim of a secret tradition that is
earlier and more faithful than the New Testament scripture. I
wrote a book with a co author called The Da
Vinci Code Factor Fiction, and doctor Paul Meyer, professor of
(16:02):
ancient history. He and I collaborated wrote a book together,
and that was again against a newer permutation of the
gnostic heresy. So these kinds of heresies, you think they're eradicated,
but like a virus, they reappear.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
That's right, mutated. They keep coming back. As we hear
Kohela say, there's nothing new under the sun. That's kind
of the way heresies are.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Clement of Alexandria. I would be remiss if we didn't
spend any time on this great apologist. And when I
think is cool about Clement of Alexandria, we're just talking
about gnostics. And a point you make in the book
is that words are not unifical, they're equivocal. They take
on the meaning that the context allows them to have.
(16:50):
And this is one of the things that Clement of
Alexandra did. He talked about the true gnostic or the
Christian gnostics, so he uses the language of gnosticism, but
he puts it within a proper context, and he points
out that the heretical gnostics were elitists. They kept their
knowledge a secret, but the true Gnostics shares that truth
(17:13):
with anyone and with everyone.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Absolutely, we're not just called to just believe in Christ.
We're called to enter into a deeper and deeper penetration
of the truth of who Jesus is. So we're called
to be growing. I love his idea of the Christian life.
It's not like, you know, you get saved and that's it,
and then you try to stay out of trouble. Until
(17:36):
you die and go to heaven. It's a dynamic progression
where you're learning more and more, you're entering more fully.
You find this in Paul for sure, you know. And
when Paul says I want to know Jesus Christ and
the power flowing from his resurrection, likewise to know how
to share in his suffering by being formed into the
pattern of his death, he says that in Philippians, well,
you know, Paul said that I want to know Jesus Christ.
(17:58):
Well don't you know him or any Paul, you're in
a pop But for Paul, he never knew the Lord enough.
He discovered anew every day deeper insights into who Jesus was.
And that wasn't just a head knowledge, that was experiential knowledge.
And so I think that's what we find in Clement,
you know. And he's teaching this and it's amazing. He's
the teacher of the New Christians, and it's fascinating. This
(18:19):
school of Alexandria, this catechetical school that was late second century,
they really wanted to equip the Christians of that town,
not just to stay out of trouble again and be
decent people, and not even just personally to grow in
holiness and knowledge, but to be equipped all to be
apologists and evangelists. And that's the way they were educating
(18:41):
the people. Clement's teaching, if you're Reclement, he's teaching ordinary Christians.
So the idea of the ordinary Christian life was pretty
exalted in Alexandria. Every Christian is called to grow in
holiness and to grow in the ability to share the
Gospel with everyone, even the most sophisticated of the people
in the culture. And Alexander was a very sophisticated place.
(19:04):
It had an incredible library, and it was the center
of actually the Gnostic movement. So you know, here we
find Christians not just sheltering and circling wagons and trying
to keep the world out and being uncontaminated by the world.
They were aggressively going out and sharing the Gospel. And
in two o two, the first well Clement was in
(19:25):
charge of the Alexandrian School. There it was the first
empire wide edict against Christianity, and the edict forbade not
believing in Christ, not worshiping Christ, but in evangelizing, in
sharing Christ with others. And you know what, the Christians
would not comply, and so you know, there were a
(19:47):
lot of martyrdoms in two o two because the Christians
of Alexandria had been trained that sharing the Gospel is key.
It's part and parcel of living for Christ. You cannot
not do that. You can't just practice your religion and
not evangelize. That's part of our faith.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes, yes, let me pause for just a moment for
everyone listening in, I want to say, we've gone through
a lot of names here, but each one of those
names in the book becomes a gripping, fast paced story.
It's like you're reading a novel. I quite literally can
tell you that I couldn't put the book down, and
(20:25):
for that reason, I want to make it available to
everyone listening to me right now. The book available for
those who support the ministry of the Christian Research Institute.
You can get your copy by simply writing me at
box eighty five hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina, zip code two
eight two seven one. You can also order a copy
on the web at equip dot or equip dot org.
(20:49):
Again available for those who support the ministry, we'll send
you a copy. I want to move on to Origin.
Origin is an incredible father of the faith, and I
want to spend a little time here because here's a
student of Clement of Alexandria, who was a systematic theologian
(21:10):
who coined Greek phrases and terms that we use today.
So oftentimes on the biblelant Span broadcast, I use the
phrase theanthropists. I defined it, of course, by saying the
God man or Homo Ussias. He also, by the way,
popularized the term mother of God or God bearer or theotokis.
(21:30):
That term was used before, but he popularized that. So
here you have an apologist who is so important, coining
words and phrases that are part of our vocabulary today.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
He is just an amazing character, and I have to
say he's one of my great inspirations from this era.
I'malay theologian and so identify a lot with him, who
for most of his life was a lay teacher. He
was later ordained. He was such a powerful preacher that
it's just the big around says area in the Holy
Land just wanted him to preach, and he couldn't legally
(22:05):
preach if he wasn't ordained. So they ordained him because
he wanted to hear his teaching. But he was just
so passionate about the Lord. He saw his dad dragged
off in the persecution I just mentioned in two two AD.
His dad was dragged off for refusing to stop evangelizing,
(22:25):
and Origin wanted to run after him and to die
with his father. And his mother was smart, knowing he
was modest. He was sleeping, woke up in his underwear,
and she hid his clothes to stop him from running
out on the street after his father. But he was
just so passionate. He wrote to his dad and said, Dad,
don't give in, you know, be faithful to Jesus. And
his dad did die as a martyr, and at that
(22:46):
point Origin just decided he was going to live as
sacrificially as he possibly could. He lived the very ascetic life.
He took the Council of Jesus Council in Matthew nineteen
to become a eunuch for the Kingdom of God. He
became sick for the Lord. He dedicated himself to prayer, fasting,
and teaching for the rest of his life. Ended up suffering.
(23:08):
He wasn't martyred, but he was tortured for the faith
and died as a confessor. After being so terribly weakened
by that torture. So just an amazing character. The amount
that he wrote is just mind boggling, kind of like
Saint Augustine, you know, probably almost impossible for anybody to
keep up with Origin and actually read all that he wrote.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And even beyond everything that he wrote. I think what's
so interesting about Origin is he didn't merely want to
inform us. He wanted to transform us, because this was
the pattern of Christ. Christ meets us in the Word
of God, not just to give us a bunch of information,
(23:52):
but to transform our lives, to bring us into the
fellowship of the Holy Trinity.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I love the fact that he did and separate intellectual
knowledge from that transformative knowledge of acquaintance with God. I
love the way he talks about inspiration. You know a
lot of times Christians thinking about inspiration as the Holy
Spirit whispering in the ear of the evangelist, and that's
the moment of inspiration. And so the words are authoritative.
(24:19):
But I love the fact that Origin sees the Bible
as a temple and the Holy Spirit lives in that temple,
so it's not just the author that was inspired back
in the first century. The words are in breathed. They
contain the spirit, and when we approach them in faith,
the spirit can transform us. And that's his He's a
(24:39):
great Bible scholar who did all the Hebrew. He studied Hebrew.
He lined up different Greek versions and Hebrew versions to
establish the best texts. So he did a lot of technical,
gritty work. But when push came to shove, you know,
scripture primarily is a place to meet God and to
be transformed. That was his approach to Scripture.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
So cool about your book as well. There's so many
things I love about your book. You're just an incredible writer,
by the way. But what I love is if you
read the Old Testament, you read the patriarchs, they're never airbrushed.
They're presented with all their warts and moles and wrinkles.
They're realistically presented to us. And you do the same
thing in your book. You present Origin as a genius
(25:22):
on the one hand, but you also point out that
there was chaff mixed with the wheat of Origin's genius.
In other words, we have a mixed bag here, and
you're honest enough to tell that part of the story.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh, of course. Yeah. In fact, people were in the
history of the church was so aware of the chat
that they dismissed the wheat, and so what we got
to do is go back and recover that wheat and
not discard it because there's chaff.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, we've run out of time for today's special edition
of the Bible answer Man Broadcast. Be sure to tune
in again next time when we will continue Hack Hannagraft's
conversation with doctor Marcellino Dembrosio. An appreciation for your vital
gift to help strengthen and expand the life changing outreaches
of the Christian Research Institute, Hank would like to send
(26:11):
you doctor Dembrosio's book When the Church Was Young, Voices
of the Early Fathers. Simply call eight eight eight seven
thousand CRI and make a gift to support CRI's life
changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CRI or visit
equip dot org. You can also write to CRII at
(26:34):
Post Office Box eighty five hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina, two
eight two seven one. The preceding program was pre recorded.
The Bible Answerman Broadcast is funded solely by listeners like you.
We're on the air because truth matters. And life matters more.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Do you ever wonder what the early Church was like
in when the Church was young? Doctor Marcellino Dembrosio dusts
off dry theology and brings to life the lives of
early Church heroes Augustine, Athanasius, Chris System and many more.
Long before the words Catholic, Orthodox and Evangelical referred to
distinct and separated communities, the fathers of the Church gloried
(27:25):
in one faith, the United Body of Christ, which can
be none other than Evangelical, Catholic and Orthodox. It's time
to rediscover our common inheritance and return to the days
when the Church was young, to experience new growth that
will produce new fruit, new unity and joy. To receive
your copy of When the Church was Young Voices of
(27:45):
the Early Fathers. Call eight eight eight seven thousand CRI
and make a gift to support the Christian research institutes
life changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand CRII or
visit equip dot org.
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