June 29, 2023 • 39 mins
Jessica Guerrieri is a mom to three fierce, young daughters and has spent the past decade as an advocate for addiction recovery. Jessica enjoys competing in Spartan Races all over California and in May of 2023 she celebrated a decade of sobriety.
Jessica has a BA in English from UC Davis with an emphasis in creative writing. Her articles have been published on Scary Mommy, Yahoo Life, Mom.com, BluntMoms, Filter Free Parents, and Sonoma Family Life and Mendo Lake Family Life magazines.
“Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea” is book (being queried now) about an alcoholic mother’s obsession with her mother-in-law’s perfectionism which ultimately forces her to reexamine the enemy in the mirror.
During the interview Jessica shares her personal journey of recovery into sobriety. She also shares the trials and tribulations of being an author going through the query process of getting published. Jessica’s website is www.jessicaguerrieri.net
You can find her on Twitter and IG @witandspitup
Jessica has a BA in English from UC Davis with an emphasis in creative writing. Her articles have been published on Scary Mommy, Yahoo Life, Mom.com, BluntMoms, Filter Free Parents, and Sonoma Family Life and Mendo Lake Family Life magazines.
“Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea” is book (being queried now) about an alcoholic mother’s obsession with her mother-in-law’s perfectionism which ultimately forces her to reexamine the enemy in the mirror.
During the interview Jessica shares her personal journey of recovery into sobriety. She also shares the trials and tribulations of being an author going through the query process of getting published. Jessica’s website is www.jessicaguerrieri.net
You can find her on Twitter and IG @witandspitup
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Well, hello everyone, and welcometo the podcast. As always, I
am absolutely thrilled that you are here. And the reason I smirk when I
say that is because I've it's cometo my attention that I'm being imitated.
That's kind of like the joke aboutBilly D's how he does the intro,
So anywhere, I appreciate that,I guess. On the studio line with
(00:31):
me today, I have Jessica gerAery. How are you doing, Jessica.
I'm doing great. Thank you somuch for having me on. Oh
well, it's a pleasure having you. For those of you who may be
finding the program for the first time, we are primarily an interview and a
commentary based podcast. Today we havean interview for you. This is the
(00:53):
author. Now technically you're still queryingthis book. Is that Craig at this
time? It is true, althoughI did get an offer of representation yesterday,
so oh well, let's hope we'llget into that. Yes, but
Jessica has a lot of good thingsto talk about. Her book is titled
Between the Devil and the d BlueSea, and we're going to talk about
(01:15):
that. But she's also an advocatefor the recovery community, I guess you
could call it yea. As ofMay twenty twenty three, she has celebrated
a decade of sobriety and I congratulationon that. I know how difficult that
can be, so yeah, thankyou very much. Let me tell you
(01:37):
a little bit about Jessica. Jessicahas I'm going to say that's a Bachelor
of Arts and English from UC Daviswith an emphasis in a creative writing.
She is a mom to three fierceyoung daughters and has spent the past decade
as an advocate for addiction recovery.As we said, Jessica's articles have been
(01:57):
published on Scary Mommy, Yeah,lifemom dot com, Blunt Mom's, Filter
Free Parents, Sonoma Family Life,and Mendo Lake Family Life Magazine. So
her writing is all over. Jessica'squeery letter and opening pages were featured on
a podcast called The Ship No OneTells You About Writing, and we're going
(02:20):
to talk about how that kind ofled her into a next level of writing
and she got her agent because ofthat appearance. Am I right about that?
That was my first agent? Yes? I did, all right?
Awesome. Jessica enjoys competing in Spartanraces. All over California. Spartan races
are these kind of like these thingswhere you have to like run and then
(02:40):
swim and oh yes, okay,it's it's like obstacle courses. It's it's
sort of like a tough mutter,only I consider it to be a little
less. I don't know, Broie. It's like you don't have to smash
a beer on your head afterwards.It's like a wonderful community have athletes and
we you know, go all overCalifornia and jump over things. We hurl
(03:06):
our bodies in unsafe ways. It'sjust a whole bunch of fun. And
yeah, so I do that withone of my friends all over California.
Well that sounds really great. Imean obviously not to everybody, but to
me it sounds like a good dude. Probably too much for me, especially
now that I've gotten over. Iwas actually pretty athletic when I was younger,
(03:28):
and I'm still kind of I'm justlazy, so I don't exercise as
much as I used to. Butobviously, of physical fitness, if you
can avoid getting hurt doing that kindof stuff, it's a great thing.
Yes, let's talk about Well,let me just prefas. Let me tell
everybody just very briefly about the book. Between the Devil and the Deep Blue
Sea is about an alcoholic's mother's obsessionwith her mother in law's perfectionism, which
(03:54):
ultimately forces her to re examine theenemy in the mirror. And I don't
get that enemy in the mirror,don't we. Before we get to that,
let's give a little background about you. Tell obviously you're out in California.
Is that where you're from? Tellus a little bit how you got
to where you're at. Sure.Yeah, So I'm originally from the Bay
Area. I grew up about twentyminutes from San Francisco and about twenty minutes
(04:18):
from the beach, which is actuallywhere my novel takes place, in a
charming beach community called Halfman Bay,California. And so I spent pretty much
every weekend there with my family wheneverwe could. We called it over the
Hill, and so we'd travel overthe hill to get to the beach,
(04:38):
and that's where I'd pretty much spendmy childhood, which was wonderful. And
then I made my way up toDavis for my undergraduate degree, and then
I met my husband here and neverleft this amazing community. Well you're when
you talk about it as an amazingcommunity. I take it you're pretty happy
in California because there's a lot oftalk about, you know, the cost
(05:00):
of living and the politics out there. Has that impacted you at all?
Are you you just content where youare? You know, I know there's
a lot to be said about California. My heart. I'm a true California
girl all through and through, soI understand the concerns across the board with
(05:21):
California. I was recently in SanFrancisco with one of my friends and noticed
sort of the unhoused population and somesome incredibly sad things happening, and I
recognize that it's just it's a differentit's a different place than where I was
(05:42):
when I grew up because we spentso much time in San Francisco. The
thing I love about California and myspecific community is it's this really beautiful combination
of family community as well as anacademic community, and there's this marriage between
the two that sort of come together. Like our favorite thing to do is
(06:03):
go to Farmers Market and we getyou know, the student life mixed with
the the kids, uh you know, live music and vendors and we're all
outside and my kids are barefoot dancingto the songs, you know, and
it's just like this is what Iclosed my eyes and dreamed of. And
you know, the weather's gorgeous.So yeah, i'man. You know,
(06:26):
California is so large and so diverse. I mean, you could have two
or three people each with two orthree different impressions. And Ohio, it
was kind of that way too.M I know, a lot of people
win the Hero Ohio, they oh, corn, corn, that's what you
got, you know. Yeah,and that's true. We do have that,
but we're also we're also the seventh, I believe, with the seventh
largest economy in the United States.Of course, now California, we're behind
(06:47):
Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, afew others, m Florida, and but
uh, you know, we haveenergy here, we have medicine here,
you know, the Cleveland Clinic,I mean, and God forbid something go
wrong with your chicker. That's theplace to be. And technology, you
know, Intel just invested in us. So there's a lot happening here.
And people say, oh, yeah, you're where the corn is. It's
(07:10):
really I mean, you're like Hey, I've got cool things happening here.
Yes, did you always want tobe a writer or is that something that
you always kind of aspired to?Yeah? So, I Actually I have
all of my old journals, startingback from when I was, you know,
six or seven years old, andI kept them all and in a
(07:31):
list it says in order, Iwanted to be a writer, I wanted
to be a teacher. I wantedto be a mother. And I've accomplished
all three of those things. Actually, my background is in special education.
Originally, and before I became amom, I was in the classroom full
time with kids with special needs andabsolutely loved it. But then once I
(07:53):
wanted to become a mom, mypatience level, I could only give so
much, and I decided to giveto my own children, and so I
stepped away from the classroom. Andthen that's when I turned to writing full
time. To I utilized a blog, and I started a mommy blog called
Wit and Spit Up, and Iwas able to sort of use it as
like a therapeutic avenue for all ofthe charming, wonderful, horrific, messy
(08:22):
things that happened in motherhood. Yeah. Sure, and I'm sure there's a
lot of them. Um, youtalk about let's with your kind of with
your recovery. We'll just kind ofwork this into the conversation because I know
it impacted you know, the subjectof your book and some other things.
I've talked to a lot of peoplewho are in recovery and sometimes for example,
(08:43):
I talked to somebody not too longago that told me their problem started
in college when the the the fatculture, uh, you know, the
constant every weekend, come on withus, We're gonna party. We're gonna
you know, when you're playing allthese games and drinking games and anything.
And pretty soon the next thing heknew he was he was in trouble.
(09:05):
Um, I talked to you.I think one of the one of the
stories that really fascinates me is Italked to somebody once who was a straight
a student, absolutely straight, hadperfect attendance going at school. During graduation,
he had one drink and that washis first real taste of alcohol.
(09:26):
He ended up getting thrown out ofthat party and struggled with alcoholism for the
next thirty years. And I thatis I mean not just it was like
flipping a switch. So it's betterfor I mean, it's it's it differs
from person to person. How didhow did you become acquainted with that lifestyle?
Did it creep up on you ordid it kind of hit you all
(09:48):
at once? Sure, Yeah,I really appreciate that question because I've heard
every version of the story you justshared, and it just to pass on
so many different things. But forme, in my situation, what happened
was my mom is a first generationimmigrant from Ireland, and so I have
I have Irish blood in me throughand through, for better or for worse,
(10:13):
UM And so we come from afamily of um where alcoholism is prolific
within our family. And it wasalso never, never, just never a
bad word in the terms of myparents being vocal about what was happening within
the family and how people were strugglingand so not being said. I had
(10:37):
a family member who went away torehab and started being active in the program.
And I was a teenager at thatpoint, and I remember thinking I
got called home from a girlfriend's house. I was, you know, thirteen,
and I was so angry that myparents called me back from my friend's
(10:58):
house. And I thought in myhead, I was like, what could
be so important? And they satus down and then let us know that
this family member was in rehab andstruggling with alcoholism. And I remember thinking
in my thirteen year old head,what does this have to do with me?
Why am I here? Who cares? You know, your egotistical teenage
(11:18):
mind. And then it's so funnybecause it has everything to do with me.
It was the thing that switched onin my brain when I recognized that,
oh my gosh, I think Ihave a problem with alcohol. I
can't seem to stop drinking, andI want to stop drinking. And so
the solution for me was always gointo a program, a twelve step program,
(11:41):
and there is a solution in thatway. And so it was never
this like foreign entity that I knowa lot of people are so baffled by
addiction and they don't see it coming. They don't it's not in their family.
They are not quite sure what todo with it. For me,
it was normalized in a very healthyway. And so that's how I that's
how I came to be familiar withit. Yeah. The next question I
(12:05):
often ask is, because denial issuch a big part of it, you
know, um, when did youhear that inner voice that said, you
know what, I think I havea problem. What what happened? Sure,
So I like to describe this feelingof otherness. I always felt like
(12:28):
I was just on the outside ofother people, like looking in and so
desperately wanting to be a part ofI'm sixth one as a woman, which
is unusual. You know, Iwas an athlete, and but growing up,
you know, I think of seventhgrade dances and the awkwardness of seventh
(12:48):
grade dances and what it was liketo be five to eleven in seventh grade.
And back in seventh grade, wehad these, you know, dance
circles, and everybody wanted to beon the inside of the circle because that's
where the cool dance moves were happening. But as a tall, you know,
awkwardly tall girl, I was beingpushed to the outside, and I
would constantly be like, well,at least whether it was happening or not,
(13:11):
I felt like I was being pushedaside. And so alcohol became the
thing that made me feel like Iwas on the inside of that circle,
and it made me feel a partof it, made me feel like I
belonged, Sue, and and itdidn't matter what was happening. It was
my solution to literally whatever it was, any feeling that I didn't want to
(13:33):
feel, any hardship or any goodthing, it would elate it to another
level for me. And so thatis how I knew that it was my
go too. Yeah. Yeah,so you realized at some point, was
there was there an incident, whatmade you reach out for help? And
(13:54):
I think that's the real question ishow did you reach out for help?
Sure? Yeah, So my husbandis my biggest supporter and cheerleader, and
I get this question a lot wherepeople reach out within the community and they
ask about, you know, whatcan a partner do? And the great,
(14:15):
the amazing thing that my husband didwas that he never presented me with
like threats or ultimatums. He simplysaid to me the truth, which was
at the time, we were wantingto have children, and I knew,
you know, as I said,from my list, the only thing I
really wanted was to be a mother. And the scary realization that I had
(14:37):
was I wanted to drink more,and I knew that I wasn't going to
be able to stop drinking in orderto get pregnant. And if I did
get pregnant. I didn't know ifI was going to be able to safely
stop. So my husband simply saidto me, one day, I'll never
forget. I can't have kids withyou when you're drinking that way. I
would not feel safe doing that.And it was like a gut punch,
(15:01):
of course, um, and itwas. It felt cruel and mean,
and but it was exactly the sentencethat I needed to hear to realize,
oh my god, I'm going tomiss out on the thing that I want
more than anything because of something that'sout of control. It's very good that
(15:22):
you had an understanding partner, becausethat can be very tricky. I'm going
to have to say, most ofthe people that I have talked to come
from broken marriages and broken relationships andbroken families. And there are times when,
for instance, the person that Italked to who had the one drink
and was followed by thirty years ofhardship, he admits he put his family
(15:46):
through hell, you know, andthere was no sign that he was ever
going to get any better, sohe can't necessarily blame them. Um.
But yes, and and you,you you found recovery, So I'm very
very happy for you. Let mejust tell the audience that with AOD,
which is alcohol and other drugs,it's it's just not a matter of wanting
(16:07):
to step away. Once you becomedependent. There's patterns in your brain that
actually start to change. And justlike you have certain devices, certain things
about your your your instincts for survival, all of a sudden, your your
brain is putting you in survival modesaying I need this. And with alcohol
(16:29):
in particular, if you if youare really chemically dependent on alcohol, I
would very strongly encourage you to gethelp to stop stopping alcohol. When you're
that seriously addicted to alcohol can befatal, So you really have to manage
that correctly. And I would encourageeverybody to get help. There's nothing wrong
with reaching out and getting help.You talk about you're in the process of
(16:52):
querying, and that is a wordthat we hear a lot with authors.
What exactly is that? How doyou go about it? So it's actually
it's a very intensive process where youspend so many hours writing what's called a
query letter, and it's basically abusiness letter that is presenting you in a
(17:15):
professional capacity of your writing history andalso you're showcasing your book. You're giving
the meat and potatoes of what's inthere and hoping to hook an agent,
a literary agent into wanting to readmore or know more about you, no
(17:36):
more about the story. And sothat is really the main thing that they
look at, and it's it hasto be you know, it's not even
a page. Every word counts.I just took a seminar on how to
write one. I've I've reached outto a thousand different resources to do it.
My queery letter is chef's kiss atthis point, but it took over
(18:00):
a year to really get it right. And the funny thing about it is,
you can be a tremendous writer.It's like it's like when people say
you're like book smart but not testsmart or however it is. It's like
and for me, writing the querywasn't my area of expertise, like writing
my synopsis or my you know ofmy That's not where my brain goes for
(18:25):
writing. I don't enjoy writing inthat process, but it's one of those
things you just have to do itand get through it and then ask for
help, like reach out to thecommunity of the writing community is incredible.
There is it's like the recovery community. All people want to do is help
one another. They just want tobe there for each other. And so
(18:45):
it's my favorite thing is like you'llput something out there and it's like,
how can I help you? Howcan I support you? Because I'm doing
this too, or I'm struggling withthis or I tried this. I have
a friend who just messaged me thatshe wants to start, you know,
she wants to start the process anddo it as a non fiction and she's
like, I will pay you foryour time to know how to do this.
(19:07):
I just am so lost, andI'm like, I will absolutely do
this for you because somebody did itfor me. That's how this works.
Sure. Um on Twitter, umthat I've noticed the writing community, Like
I hear the hashtag what is it? I am querying and some others.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there'sa there's a real what is it against?
Its hashtag am querying is a verypopular one. Okay, So yeah,
(19:32):
I've noticed the writer's community on Twitteris very large. So that's that's
fantastic. Yeah. Um, rejectionis certainly a part of that process.
And I'm I'm as a voiceover person, you know, I would have to
say most of the things I gofor, I know they're looking for a
voice like mine. But there aretimes when you know, I've been told
I'm too rock and roll, I'mtoo masculine, I'm too and you can't
(19:56):
you can't take it personally. There'sjust too many voices out there. Um
And so how do you how doyou manage it? Because a lot of
times, in a writer's case,you might have put in years of work
into this research and everything and thenjust be told them that's nobody's going to
read it. We don't want Howdo you deal with that? Sure?
So I liked it too, especiallyas it writing a novel or writing just
(20:19):
really anything. It's it's like apart of you. It's it becomes almost
like one of my children. Sothis is like my fourth child that I've
created. And the vulnerability of presentingit out to the world and you're you're
handing it over or a portion ofit or whatever it is, to an
agent, and the rejection, especiallyin the beginning, it feels like they
(20:41):
look at it, they grimace andthey say that's an ugly baby, and
they hand it right back to you. And it's like the same level of
heartache where you're just like, howcould you think that something that came from
me is horrible? And then youget ten of them, twenty of them,
thirty of them, and it justkeeps happening, and your skin becomes
(21:03):
so incredibly thick, because, firstof all, having been through addiction recovery,
like I can roll with the puncheswith the best of them, I
have been through some stuff. Andso somebody telling me this is not for
me is a subjective statement. Somebody'sfavorite novel in the entire world, the
(21:26):
Grapes of Wrath or whatever it is, could be somebody's did not finish on
the you know, in their intheir pile of I did not understand why
this was such a big deal.And that's just how this works. You
have to be able to let itroll off of your back and be your
biggest cheerleader and know what you haveto offer, know that what you're giving
(21:51):
is something valuable and something people aregoing to want to read, because if
you don't believe it, nobody elseis going to believe it. So yeah,
speaking of this whole process, howdid being on a podcast land you
an agent? So I see now, if people think podcasts aren't worth their
time. Here's a perfect example ofall great they are right, Tell me
how that worked for you. SoI was on the ship. No one
(22:14):
tells you about writing with Curly Watersand Cecilera, and it was it was
such a nerve wracking experience in thesense of like it was like six am
or something, and because everything's ondifferent time in California, New York,
and I was just so nervous becausethese these are such icons in the agent
community and I was new to thiswhole querying process and everything. But what
(22:38):
had happened is I had submitted mypages to them and my query letter for
essentially it's you're doing it to becritiqued on air, and there is no
there is no like pause button,there is no If they hate it,
they can say that they hate iton the air and there's no going back,
(23:00):
you know what I mean. Andso it was this level of again
vulnerability that was just like, well, I'm just going to lay it a
lot on the table and they,I mean, who better than to tell
me then to best of the businessand say like, do I have what
it takes and and just lay itout there. Because what I learned was
the mistakes that I made because atthat point it was a multi POV story
(23:23):
and I turned it into a singlePOV. The mistakes that I made while
you know, I came away sadthat they didn't immediately want to sign me
and all and all the pipe dreamsthat I built up in my head,
but really it was like, oh, I learned so much other people learned
from this. And it's the samething in recovery, where it's like I'm
(23:45):
going to put it out there.If this relates to you in some way,
if this helps you in some way, wonderful. If it doesn't,
then don't don't use it, don'ttake it. And then the really cool
thing is that my agent she listenedto the podcast and she found on Twitter
and asked me to query her.And it was like the first time that
I was on the receiving end oflike, oh the ball is in my
(24:07):
court, I get to do something. And then we just went from there,
which was amazing. Unfortunately, wedid end up parting ways just because
our vision had stalled. You'll realizein this and I'm coming to realize in
this industry you can have like alove match. And she's a wonderful person
and her editorial feedback got my bookto where it is right now and where
it was meant to be, butwe just weren't aligned to work together and
(24:30):
get across the finish line. Butlike, I would never be where I
am and have this offer that Igot yesterday without her help. And it's
these connections that you made. Andthe same thing with being on the podcast
is like I'm opening myself up topotentially get rejected, potentially be vulnerable,
but you will miss every shot thatyou don't take, and especially in the
(24:53):
writing community. Oh absolutely, Andthat's a great quote. I have a
pretty good idea. But I'm goingto go ahead and ask you. A
lot of times we incorporate when wewrite, when we create, we incorporate
a little bit of ourselves. Sowhat was your inspiration for between the Devil
and the Deep Blue Sea? Sure? So, I think right now there's
(25:17):
a very important thing that's happening withinthe motherhood community, and it's as a
result of the pandemic. I thinkaddiction among mothers is running rampant right now
because there was this narrative that washappening and you'll see it all over social
media, You'll see it in commercials, of this like mommy wine culture that's
(25:41):
happening, where there's a promotion thatwomen are somehow not strong enough to cope
with the stressors of motherhood without usingalcohol or substances as a crutch. And
I completely reject that narrative, andI refuse to believe that it's rooted in
misogyny. And you would never hearlike daddy daddy's beer. You know,
(26:07):
Daddy needs to his beer to bea dad. It's just it's unacceptable to
me. And so I wrote thisbook wanting to start a conversation in a
safe place for women. So thisis considered book club fiction of market fiction.
And when you think of moms inbook clubs, oftentimes you think of
(26:29):
them with like a glass of winein their hand. And what happened with
me was I was reading a fictionbook in my twenties and I had a
glass of wine in my hand,and I'll never forget relating to that character
who was going down the struggle ofaddiction. She was like in the throws
(26:52):
of a like unable to get offthe ride, as I call it,
and I just related to her somuch. And because she was a fictional
character that felt non threatening to me, it felt like a safe place to
explore this idea. And so Iloved the idea of writing about that feeling
and that relatability of just crossing overthe threshold into not being able to stop
(27:18):
even though you want to stop,and what it's like as a mother and
a woman, and how this impactsour daily lives in the things that mothers
will use in escapism to escape theheart, to not be in the difficult
place that is motherhood. And soI really got excited about this idea of
(27:41):
being able to share that and reachingother women, reaching other mothers, especially
because this conversation is so important rightnow. Yeah, that's really really interesting,
and I'm so glad that you're you'retalking about all this. I know
in the recovery community it doesn't alwayswork for everyone to share their story.
You have to do what's good foryour own mental health. But for those
(28:03):
who it helps to share their story, what it does do for other people
is it shows that recovery is possible. And a lot of times when people
are in the throes of addiction thatcomes with depression and a lot of other
things, and they can sit aroundand say that's just not going to be
an end to this. But recoveryis possible, and it may not be
the recovery that you envisioned, butthere is a better life that is available.
(28:30):
And I think the best message,and I'll let you respond to this.
I think the best message a lotof times with mothers is when they're
in a situation where they're starting tofeel tired, they're starting to feel like
maybe their partner isn't helping them.They're struggling with work and bills, and
a lot of times the baby isnot letting them sleep. It's so easy
(28:52):
to fall into this, Well,I'm the only person who is discouraged by
this. I should be happy tobe a mother. But that's not true.
There's people who have gone through thatbefore. Is that correct? Absolutely?
And I I struggled with postpartum depression. And I didn't realize I was
struggling with postpartum depression until I hadmy second And as I saw my second
(29:15):
daughter sixteen or eighteen months later,and I realized that the feelings, the
feelings that I had were not normalin the sense that the thoughts that I
had were dangerous thoughts. And andso I actually joined a mother's community called
fit for Mom Woodland Davis, andwe did exercise, we did book clubs,
(29:37):
we did mom's night outs, andwe promoted the idea of like community
and motherhood, and we would domeal trains for each other if someone was
having a hard time, if somebodyhad a baby, and they're some of
my closest friends to this day,and just recognizing that there's support out there.
(29:57):
It's like, instead of re chingfor that glass of wine when you're
feeling alone, you reach for support. You reach for another mother, another
woman, another person who understands whatyou're going through. The opposite of addiction,
I think is connection. And sothat's what we're That's what the solution
(30:18):
was for me, was realizing thatit was not going to be inside of
a substance or inside of a drink. If the answer was not in there,
it was with asking for help throughother people. That is an absolutely
fantastic message. I love that theanswer was in connection. That is that's
a That's that's wonderful. I reallylike that. That's awesome. Thank you.
(30:40):
Um, so you have this littlesaga going on, you're queering.
You know, you got this book, Um, where can people follow you
online? Where's the best place forpeople to follow the progress of your message
about recovery, all your positive messagesabout that, as well as your progress
as an author. Where can peoplefollow you? Yeah, I would love
for people to follow along. Soon Twitter, I'm wit and spit Up
(31:03):
WI t and spit Up, andon Instagram I'm also wit and spit Up.
This was from my blog that Istill have. Uh this is You
can also click on that to getto my writer's website, which I have
all of my podcasts, my everythingthat I've been on, everything that I've
written is on there as well.I also have like moms meditations and different
(31:29):
things like that that I've written forthe for the women's community. We do
yoga and I will often read meditationsand so I've written those for I wrote
a bunch for women in the pandemicand they're just guides that people can use
and go to um. And thenalso I just I finally, I guess
joined TikTok and Reluctant reluctantly and Iam Jess stays sober on TikTok and I
(31:57):
started doing conversations just like this whereI give people examples of situations that might
come up. I just did oneabout what happens in the summer. Summer
is so associated with like barbecues anddrinking, and like, how can I
still stay sober and have fun inthe summer and what does that look like?
You know, I have ten yearsunder my belt and I'm a really
(32:21):
social person. I love going out, I love going to concerts, I
love dancing. I love people,and I wanted to kind of give them
tips. And I was like,well, what's an avenue for me to
do that? And it's just meon TikTok recorded messages of hope of like
you can do this, and here'show try this strategy. This is what
I did. You know, neverever ride with someone, drive yourself so
(32:46):
you can leave if you need to. Just these these little things that I've
learned through other people, either inrecovery or just in my own experience.
And so yeah, that's great.I really liked the message, and uh,
TikTok you know, you can saya lot about it, but I
gotta tell you for creators right now. You know, I'm going to say,
(33:07):
between the changes that are happening inTwitter and with what's going on with
TikTok Um, I'm not so sure, the meta universe. I mean,
it's still important, you know,Facebook page is still important for your for
your author page or what have you. But there's some real activity happening in
other places right now. And yeah, it's great that you're doing that.
(33:28):
I'm gonna have to because I havea TikTok accunt as well. I don't
spend a lot of time on it. Yeah, but I'll pray for you
everybody, all my podcast friends day, Hey, you know you should do
something on there. I don't.I don't. I'm pretty sure people don't
want to see me dance, butyeah, maybe maybe I never know what
I mean, you pick the viralthat way, and then you know that's
all you get. That's how youget all the follow ups. It's one
(33:50):
of those things that you just haveto recognize that it's part of the process
when in being a writer, andlike, I want to hide behind my
book. I want to be aface of recovery. I want to be
a face of motherhood and strength andall of these things. I don't want
to I have a lot to sayon the page, but I also think
(34:13):
it's important to sort of step outin other places that I can access more
people and give like a hopeful message, and this is one of them,
you know. I know we foundeach other on Twitter, and it's only
because I've made a conscious decision whereI was like, yeah, Twitter can
be a very toxic, dangerous placesometimes, but when you find the right
(34:36):
pockets of communities that are there tosupport one other, it's actually a really
beautiful place and and really good thingscan happen there. And a lot of
amazing things have transpired us as aresult of just putting it out there.
That's fantastic for those of you whoare listening. If you want to follow
me on Twitter, you can dothat. I'm at Billy D's. That's
(34:57):
kind of the screen name that Iuse for just about everything. I don't
get to fancy with a bunch ofdifferent screen names that people can't follow,
Like, use the same one foreveryone. You can follow me on Twitter.
You just have to be nice,That's what I always say. Sometimes
they are, sometimes they're not,that's right, or you just get blocked,
you know, and you know what, sometimes the you know, sometimes
the naysayers can help drive your analytics. That's especially true on TikTok. Yeah,
(35:22):
so I'm if if if haters aregoing to help me, come on
and hate I'm Billy dies on TikTokas well. I'm being facetious of course,
right. Well. The thing,the thing that I've learned about this
type of stuff is i'd say thisoften to people. I would hate someone
like me in the late stages ofmy addiction. I would be a very
(35:46):
scary person to hear, because firstof all, I wouldn't want to believe
me. I would find all theways to discredit me. I'm talking about
something that's really uncomfortable and drawing amention to a topic that if you're in
it, and you're in the denialstage, you're in the really suffering stage.
(36:07):
Of course, of course you don'twant to hear from someone like me
like I'm much too happy, I'mmuch too positive about it, Like she
must be full of crap. Um. I assure you that I am not.
I have my dark days too,but I I'm gonna be that.
I'm gonna be that voice because Icannot tell you the number of people that
reach out to me and say thingslike I needed to hear this, or
(36:31):
I relate to this, or myhusband is struggling and I feel alone and
and it's like I'm it's for thosepeople, yea, and I that's that's
why I do it, and it'sit's it helps my recovery as well because
I hear the stories that I needto hear of other people struggling and the
(36:52):
reminder of what's available to me outin the addiction world if I ever choose
to go back. Well, right, well, I gotta tell you that's
a that's a great positive message.And yes, the success in sobriety when
you're with other people feeds more success. That's absolutely true. We have been
talking to Jessica. Do you saythe sea or is that is that party?
(37:15):
How? Or you just go byby Jessica Guarary Jessica, Yes,
all right, Well Jessica, thankyou so much for being on the podcast.
I wish you nothing but success.Stay in touch and you might have
to visit us again and give usan update. Thank you so much for
being on the program. Thank youso very much. I really appreciate it
(37:35):
absolutely. My name is Billy D's. You can find the Billidi's podcast pretty
much anywhere you find podcasts, andlike I mentioned, you can find me
on just about any social media platform. But I'm gonna say Twitter is kind
of like my social media home.At Billy D's, thank you very much
for listening to the podcast today andwe will talk to you again next week.
(37:59):
You're dog is cute, your kidsare adorable, and your cat really
does look good in that too too. But there's only so many times you
can talk about how cool the lossraptors are or how much you want to
rub that fuzzy belly. How abouta podcast with extraordinary people and scintillating conversation.
(38:20):
It's a Derrek Duval show. Buyingit at Derrek Duval Show dot com,
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whereveryou find your podcasts, and no,
I will not be attending your cats. Kincinera. I'm Billy DS and
host of the self titled podcast,The Billy D's Podcast. We are primarily
(38:42):
an interview and a commentary based podcastfeaturing authors and creators talking about their craft,
advocates for community issues, and myselfin an array of co host discussing
current events. There's no partisan rentingand raving going on here, just great
content. You can find The Billide'sPodcast on your favorite platform and on Twitter
at Billy D's. Thank you,and I hope you listen in
Well, hello everyone, and welcometo the podcast. As always, I
am absolutely thrilled that you are here. And the reason I smirk when I
say that is because I've it's cometo my attention that I'm being imitated.
That's kind of like the joke aboutBilly D's how he does the intro,
So anywhere, I appreciate that,I guess. On the studio line with
(00:31):
me today, I have Jessica gerAery. How are you doing, Jessica.
I'm doing great. Thank you somuch for having me on. Oh
well, it's a pleasure having you. For those of you who may be
finding the program for the first time, we are primarily an interview and a
commentary based podcast. Today we havean interview for you. This is the
(00:53):
author. Now technically you're still queryingthis book. Is that Craig at this
time? It is true, althoughI did get an offer of representation yesterday,
so oh well, let's hope we'llget into that. Yes, but
Jessica has a lot of good thingsto talk about. Her book is titled
Between the Devil and the d BlueSea, and we're going to talk about
(01:15):
that. But she's also an advocatefor the recovery community, I guess you
could call it yea. As ofMay twenty twenty three, she has celebrated
a decade of sobriety and I congratulationon that. I know how difficult that
can be, so yeah, thankyou very much. Let me tell you
(01:37):
a little bit about Jessica. Jessicahas I'm going to say that's a Bachelor
of Arts and English from UC Daviswith an emphasis in a creative writing.
She is a mom to three fierceyoung daughters and has spent the past decade
as an advocate for addiction recovery.As we said, Jessica's articles have been
(01:57):
published on Scary Mommy, Yeah,lifemom dot com, Blunt Mom's, Filter
Free Parents, Sonoma Family Life,and Mendo Lake Family Life Magazine. So
her writing is all over. Jessica'squeery letter and opening pages were featured on
a podcast called The Ship No OneTells You About Writing, and we're going
(02:20):
to talk about how that kind ofled her into a next level of writing
and she got her agent because ofthat appearance. Am I right about that?
That was my first agent? Yes? I did, all right?
Awesome. Jessica enjoys competing in Spartanraces. All over California. Spartan races
are these kind of like these thingswhere you have to like run and then
(02:40):
swim and oh yes, okay,it's it's like obstacle courses. It's it's
sort of like a tough mutter,only I consider it to be a little
less. I don't know, Broie. It's like you don't have to smash
a beer on your head afterwards.It's like a wonderful community have athletes and
we you know, go all overCalifornia and jump over things. We hurl
(03:06):
our bodies in unsafe ways. It'sjust a whole bunch of fun. And
yeah, so I do that withone of my friends all over California.
Well that sounds really great. Imean obviously not to everybody, but to
me it sounds like a good dude. Probably too much for me, especially
now that I've gotten over. Iwas actually pretty athletic when I was younger,
(03:28):
and I'm still kind of I'm justlazy, so I don't exercise as
much as I used to. Butobviously, of physical fitness, if you
can avoid getting hurt doing that kindof stuff, it's a great thing.
Yes, let's talk about Well,let me just prefas. Let me tell
everybody just very briefly about the book. Between the Devil and the Deep Blue
Sea is about an alcoholic's mother's obsessionwith her mother in law's perfectionism, which
(03:54):
ultimately forces her to re examine theenemy in the mirror. And I don't
get that enemy in the mirror,don't we. Before we get to that,
let's give a little background about you. Tell obviously you're out in California.
Is that where you're from? Tellus a little bit how you got
to where you're at. Sure.Yeah, So I'm originally from the Bay
Area. I grew up about twentyminutes from San Francisco and about twenty minutes
(04:18):
from the beach, which is actuallywhere my novel takes place, in a
charming beach community called Halfman Bay,California. And so I spent pretty much
every weekend there with my family wheneverwe could. We called it over the
Hill, and so we'd travel overthe hill to get to the beach,
(04:38):
and that's where I'd pretty much spendmy childhood, which was wonderful. And
then I made my way up toDavis for my undergraduate degree, and then
I met my husband here and neverleft this amazing community. Well you're when
you talk about it as an amazingcommunity. I take it you're pretty happy
in California because there's a lot oftalk about, you know, the cost
(05:00):
of living and the politics out there. Has that impacted you at all?
Are you you just content where youare? You know, I know there's
a lot to be said about California. My heart. I'm a true California
girl all through and through, soI understand the concerns across the board with
(05:21):
California. I was recently in SanFrancisco with one of my friends and noticed
sort of the unhoused population and somesome incredibly sad things happening, and I
recognize that it's just it's a differentit's a different place than where I was
(05:42):
when I grew up because we spentso much time in San Francisco. The
thing I love about California and myspecific community is it's this really beautiful combination
of family community as well as anacademic community, and there's this marriage between
the two that sort of come together. Like our favorite thing to do is
(06:03):
go to Farmers Market and we getyou know, the student life mixed with
the the kids, uh you know, live music and vendors and we're all
outside and my kids are barefoot dancingto the songs, you know, and
it's just like this is what Iclosed my eyes and dreamed of. And
you know, the weather's gorgeous.So yeah, i'man. You know,
(06:26):
California is so large and so diverse. I mean, you could have two
or three people each with two orthree different impressions. And Ohio, it
was kind of that way too.M I know, a lot of people
win the Hero Ohio, they oh, corn, corn, that's what you
got, you know. Yeah,and that's true. We do have that,
but we're also we're also the seventh, I believe, with the seventh
largest economy in the United States.Of course, now California, we're behind
(06:47):
Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, afew others, m Florida, and but
uh, you know, we haveenergy here, we have medicine here,
you know, the Cleveland Clinic,I mean, and God forbid something go
wrong with your chicker. That's theplace to be. And technology, you
know, Intel just invested in us. So there's a lot happening here.
And people say, oh, yeah, you're where the corn is. It's
(07:10):
really I mean, you're like Hey, I've got cool things happening here.
Yes, did you always want tobe a writer or is that something that
you always kind of aspired to?Yeah? So, I Actually I have
all of my old journals, startingback from when I was, you know,
six or seven years old, andI kept them all and in a
(07:31):
list it says in order, Iwanted to be a writer, I wanted
to be a teacher. I wantedto be a mother. And I've accomplished
all three of those things. Actually, my background is in special education.
Originally, and before I became amom, I was in the classroom full
time with kids with special needs andabsolutely loved it. But then once I
(07:53):
wanted to become a mom, mypatience level, I could only give so
much, and I decided to giveto my own children, and so I
stepped away from the classroom. Andthen that's when I turned to writing full
time. To I utilized a blog, and I started a mommy blog called
Wit and Spit Up, and Iwas able to sort of use it as
like a therapeutic avenue for all ofthe charming, wonderful, horrific, messy
(08:22):
things that happened in motherhood. Yeah. Sure, and I'm sure there's a
lot of them. Um, youtalk about let's with your kind of with
your recovery. We'll just kind ofwork this into the conversation because I know
it impacted you know, the subjectof your book and some other things.
I've talked to a lot of peoplewho are in recovery and sometimes for example,
(08:43):
I talked to somebody not too longago that told me their problem started
in college when the the the fatculture, uh, you know, the
constant every weekend, come on withus, We're gonna party. We're gonna
you know, when you're playing allthese games and drinking games and anything.
And pretty soon the next thing heknew he was he was in trouble.
(09:05):
Um, I talked to you.I think one of the one of the
stories that really fascinates me is Italked to somebody once who was a straight
a student, absolutely straight, hadperfect attendance going at school. During graduation,
he had one drink and that washis first real taste of alcohol.
(09:26):
He ended up getting thrown out ofthat party and struggled with alcoholism for the
next thirty years. And I thatis I mean not just it was like
flipping a switch. So it's betterfor I mean, it's it's it differs
from person to person. How didhow did you become acquainted with that lifestyle?
Did it creep up on you ordid it kind of hit you all
(09:48):
at once? Sure, Yeah,I really appreciate that question because I've heard
every version of the story you justshared, and it just to pass on
so many different things. But forme, in my situation, what happened
was my mom is a first generationimmigrant from Ireland, and so I have
I have Irish blood in me throughand through, for better or for worse,
(10:13):
UM And so we come from afamily of um where alcoholism is prolific
within our family. And it wasalso never, never, just never a
bad word in the terms of myparents being vocal about what was happening within
the family and how people were strugglingand so not being said. I had
(10:37):
a family member who went away torehab and started being active in the program.
And I was a teenager at thatpoint, and I remember thinking I
got called home from a girlfriend's house. I was, you know, thirteen,
and I was so angry that myparents called me back from my friend's
(10:58):
house. And I thought in myhead, I was like, what could
be so important? And they satus down and then let us know that
this family member was in rehab andstruggling with alcoholism. And I remember thinking
in my thirteen year old head,what does this have to do with me?
Why am I here? Who cares? You know, your egotistical teenage
(11:18):
mind. And then it's so funnybecause it has everything to do with me.
It was the thing that switched onin my brain when I recognized that,
oh my gosh, I think Ihave a problem with alcohol. I
can't seem to stop drinking, andI want to stop drinking. And so
the solution for me was always gointo a program, a twelve step program,
(11:41):
and there is a solution in thatway. And so it was never
this like foreign entity that I knowa lot of people are so baffled by
addiction and they don't see it coming. They don't it's not in their family.
They are not quite sure what todo with it. For me,
it was normalized in a very healthyway. And so that's how I that's
how I came to be familiar withit. Yeah. The next question I
(12:05):
often ask is, because denial issuch a big part of it, you
know, um, when did youhear that inner voice that said, you
know what, I think I havea problem. What what happened? Sure,
So I like to describe this feelingof otherness. I always felt like
(12:28):
I was just on the outside ofother people, like looking in and so
desperately wanting to be a part ofI'm sixth one as a woman, which
is unusual. You know, Iwas an athlete, and but growing up,
you know, I think of seventhgrade dances and the awkwardness of seventh
(12:48):
grade dances and what it was liketo be five to eleven in seventh grade.
And back in seventh grade, wehad these, you know, dance
circles, and everybody wanted to beon the inside of the circle because that's
where the cool dance moves were happening. But as a tall, you know,
awkwardly tall girl, I was beingpushed to the outside, and I
would constantly be like, well,at least whether it was happening or not,
(13:11):
I felt like I was being pushedaside. And so alcohol became the
thing that made me feel like Iwas on the inside of that circle,
and it made me feel a partof it, made me feel like I
belonged, Sue, and and itdidn't matter what was happening. It was
my solution to literally whatever it was, any feeling that I didn't want to
(13:33):
feel, any hardship or any goodthing, it would elate it to another
level for me. And so thatis how I knew that it was my
go too. Yeah. Yeah,so you realized at some point, was
there was there an incident, whatmade you reach out for help? And
(13:54):
I think that's the real question ishow did you reach out for help?
Sure? Yeah, So my husbandis my biggest supporter and cheerleader, and
I get this question a lot wherepeople reach out within the community and they
ask about, you know, whatcan a partner do? And the great,
(14:15):
the amazing thing that my husband didwas that he never presented me with
like threats or ultimatums. He simplysaid to me the truth, which was
at the time, we were wantingto have children, and I knew,
you know, as I said,from my list, the only thing I
really wanted was to be a mother. And the scary realization that I had
(14:37):
was I wanted to drink more,and I knew that I wasn't going to
be able to stop drinking in orderto get pregnant. And if I did
get pregnant. I didn't know ifI was going to be able to safely
stop. So my husband simply saidto me, one day, I'll never
forget. I can't have kids withyou when you're drinking that way. I
would not feel safe doing that.And it was like a gut punch,
(15:01):
of course, um, and itwas. It felt cruel and mean,
and but it was exactly the sentencethat I needed to hear to realize,
oh my god, I'm going tomiss out on the thing that I want
more than anything because of something that'sout of control. It's very good that
(15:22):
you had an understanding partner, becausethat can be very tricky. I'm going
to have to say, most ofthe people that I have talked to come
from broken marriages and broken relationships andbroken families. And there are times when,
for instance, the person that Italked to who had the one drink
and was followed by thirty years ofhardship, he admits he put his family
(15:46):
through hell, you know, andthere was no sign that he was ever
going to get any better, sohe can't necessarily blame them. Um.
But yes, and and you,you you found recovery, So I'm very
very happy for you. Let mejust tell the audience that with AOD,
which is alcohol and other drugs,it's it's just not a matter of wanting
(16:07):
to step away. Once you becomedependent. There's patterns in your brain that
actually start to change. And justlike you have certain devices, certain things
about your your your instincts for survival, all of a sudden, your your
brain is putting you in survival modesaying I need this. And with alcohol
(16:29):
in particular, if you if youare really chemically dependent on alcohol, I
would very strongly encourage you to gethelp to stop stopping alcohol. When you're
that seriously addicted to alcohol can befatal, So you really have to manage
that correctly. And I would encourageeverybody to get help. There's nothing wrong
with reaching out and getting help.You talk about you're in the process of
(16:52):
querying, and that is a wordthat we hear a lot with authors.
What exactly is that? How doyou go about it? So it's actually
it's a very intensive process where youspend so many hours writing what's called a
query letter, and it's basically abusiness letter that is presenting you in a
(17:15):
professional capacity of your writing history andalso you're showcasing your book. You're giving
the meat and potatoes of what's inthere and hoping to hook an agent,
a literary agent into wanting to readmore or know more about you, no
(17:36):
more about the story. And sothat is really the main thing that they
look at, and it's it hasto be you know, it's not even
a page. Every word counts.I just took a seminar on how to
write one. I've I've reached outto a thousand different resources to do it.
My queery letter is chef's kiss atthis point, but it took over
(18:00):
a year to really get it right. And the funny thing about it is,
you can be a tremendous writer.It's like it's like when people say
you're like book smart but not testsmart or however it is. It's like
and for me, writing the querywasn't my area of expertise, like writing
my synopsis or my you know ofmy That's not where my brain goes for
(18:25):
writing. I don't enjoy writing inthat process, but it's one of those
things you just have to do itand get through it and then ask for
help, like reach out to thecommunity of the writing community is incredible.
There is it's like the recovery community. All people want to do is help
one another. They just want tobe there for each other. And so
(18:45):
it's my favorite thing is like you'llput something out there and it's like,
how can I help you? Howcan I support you? Because I'm doing
this too, or I'm struggling withthis or I tried this. I have
a friend who just messaged me thatshe wants to start, you know,
she wants to start the process anddo it as a non fiction and she's
like, I will pay you foryour time to know how to do this.
(19:07):
I just am so lost, andI'm like, I will absolutely do
this for you because somebody did itfor me. That's how this works.
Sure. Um on Twitter, umthat I've noticed the writing community, Like
I hear the hashtag what is it? I am querying and some others.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there'sa there's a real what is it against?
Its hashtag am querying is a verypopular one. Okay, So yeah,
(19:32):
I've noticed the writer's community on Twitteris very large. So that's that's
fantastic. Yeah. Um, rejectionis certainly a part of that process.
And I'm I'm as a voiceover person, you know, I would have to
say most of the things I gofor, I know they're looking for a
voice like mine. But there aretimes when you know, I've been told
I'm too rock and roll, I'mtoo masculine, I'm too and you can't
(19:56):
you can't take it personally. There'sjust too many voices out there. Um
And so how do you how doyou manage it? Because a lot of
times, in a writer's case,you might have put in years of work
into this research and everything and thenjust be told them that's nobody's going to
read it. We don't want Howdo you deal with that? Sure?
So I liked it too, especiallyas it writing a novel or writing just
(20:19):
really anything. It's it's like apart of you. It's it becomes almost
like one of my children. Sothis is like my fourth child that I've
created. And the vulnerability of presentingit out to the world and you're you're
handing it over or a portion ofit or whatever it is, to an
agent, and the rejection, especiallyin the beginning, it feels like they
(20:41):
look at it, they grimace andthey say that's an ugly baby, and
they hand it right back to you. And it's like the same level of
heartache where you're just like, howcould you think that something that came from
me is horrible? And then youget ten of them, twenty of them,
thirty of them, and it justkeeps happening, and your skin becomes
(21:03):
so incredibly thick, because, firstof all, having been through addiction recovery,
like I can roll with the puncheswith the best of them, I
have been through some stuff. Andso somebody telling me this is not for
me is a subjective statement. Somebody'sfavorite novel in the entire world, the
(21:26):
Grapes of Wrath or whatever it is, could be somebody's did not finish on
the you know, in their intheir pile of I did not understand why
this was such a big deal.And that's just how this works. You
have to be able to let itroll off of your back and be your
biggest cheerleader and know what you haveto offer, know that what you're giving
(21:51):
is something valuable and something people aregoing to want to read, because if
you don't believe it, nobody elseis going to believe it. So yeah,
speaking of this whole process, howdid being on a podcast land you
an agent? So I see now, if people think podcasts aren't worth their
time. Here's a perfect example ofall great they are right, Tell me
how that worked for you. SoI was on the ship. No one
(22:14):
tells you about writing with Curly Watersand Cecilera, and it was it was
such a nerve wracking experience in thesense of like it was like six am
or something, and because everything's ondifferent time in California, New York,
and I was just so nervous becausethese these are such icons in the agent
community and I was new to thiswhole querying process and everything. But what
(22:38):
had happened is I had submitted mypages to them and my query letter for
essentially it's you're doing it to becritiqued on air, and there is no
there is no like pause button,there is no If they hate it,
they can say that they hate iton the air and there's no going back,
(23:00):
you know what I mean. Andso it was this level of again
vulnerability that was just like, well, I'm just going to lay it a
lot on the table and they,I mean, who better than to tell
me then to best of the businessand say like, do I have what
it takes and and just lay itout there. Because what I learned was
the mistakes that I made because atthat point it was a multi POV story
(23:23):
and I turned it into a singlePOV. The mistakes that I made while
you know, I came away sadthat they didn't immediately want to sign me
and all and all the pipe dreamsthat I built up in my head,
but really it was like, oh, I learned so much other people learned
from this. And it's the samething in recovery, where it's like I'm
(23:45):
going to put it out there.If this relates to you in some way,
if this helps you in some way, wonderful. If it doesn't,
then don't don't use it, don'ttake it. And then the really cool
thing is that my agent she listenedto the podcast and she found on Twitter
and asked me to query her.And it was like the first time that
I was on the receiving end oflike, oh the ball is in my
(24:07):
court, I get to do something. And then we just went from there,
which was amazing. Unfortunately, wedid end up parting ways just because
our vision had stalled. You'll realizein this and I'm coming to realize in
this industry you can have like alove match. And she's a wonderful person
and her editorial feedback got my bookto where it is right now and where
it was meant to be, butwe just weren't aligned to work together and
(24:30):
get across the finish line. Butlike, I would never be where I
am and have this offer that Igot yesterday without her help. And it's
these connections that you made. Andthe same thing with being on the podcast
is like I'm opening myself up topotentially get rejected, potentially be vulnerable,
but you will miss every shot thatyou don't take, and especially in the
(24:53):
writing community. Oh absolutely, Andthat's a great quote. I have a
pretty good idea. But I'm goingto go ahead and ask you. A
lot of times we incorporate when wewrite, when we create, we incorporate
a little bit of ourselves. Sowhat was your inspiration for between the Devil
and the Deep Blue Sea? Sure? So, I think right now there's
(25:17):
a very important thing that's happening withinthe motherhood community, and it's as a
result of the pandemic. I thinkaddiction among mothers is running rampant right now
because there was this narrative that washappening and you'll see it all over social
media, You'll see it in commercials, of this like mommy wine culture that's
(25:41):
happening, where there's a promotion thatwomen are somehow not strong enough to cope
with the stressors of motherhood without usingalcohol or substances as a crutch. And
I completely reject that narrative, andI refuse to believe that it's rooted in
misogyny. And you would never hearlike daddy daddy's beer. You know,
(26:07):
Daddy needs to his beer to bea dad. It's just it's unacceptable to
me. And so I wrote thisbook wanting to start a conversation in a
safe place for women. So thisis considered book club fiction of market fiction.
And when you think of moms inbook clubs, oftentimes you think of
(26:29):
them with like a glass of winein their hand. And what happened with
me was I was reading a fictionbook in my twenties and I had a
glass of wine in my hand,and I'll never forget relating to that character
who was going down the struggle ofaddiction. She was like in the throws
(26:52):
of a like unable to get offthe ride, as I call it,
and I just related to her somuch. And because she was a fictional
character that felt non threatening to me, it felt like a safe place to
explore this idea. And so Iloved the idea of writing about that feeling
and that relatability of just crossing overthe threshold into not being able to stop
(27:18):
even though you want to stop,and what it's like as a mother and
a woman, and how this impactsour daily lives in the things that mothers
will use in escapism to escape theheart, to not be in the difficult
place that is motherhood. And soI really got excited about this idea of
(27:41):
being able to share that and reachingother women, reaching other mothers, especially
because this conversation is so important rightnow. Yeah, that's really really interesting,
and I'm so glad that you're you'retalking about all this. I know
in the recovery community it doesn't alwayswork for everyone to share their story.
You have to do what's good foryour own mental health. But for those
(28:03):
who it helps to share their story, what it does do for other people
is it shows that recovery is possible. And a lot of times when people
are in the throes of addiction thatcomes with depression and a lot of other
things, and they can sit aroundand say that's just not going to be
an end to this. But recoveryis possible, and it may not be
the recovery that you envisioned, butthere is a better life that is available.
(28:30):
And I think the best message,and I'll let you respond to this.
I think the best message a lotof times with mothers is when they're
in a situation where they're starting tofeel tired, they're starting to feel like
maybe their partner isn't helping them.They're struggling with work and bills, and
a lot of times the baby isnot letting them sleep. It's so easy
(28:52):
to fall into this, Well,I'm the only person who is discouraged by
this. I should be happy tobe a mother. But that's not true.
There's people who have gone through thatbefore. Is that correct? Absolutely?
And I I struggled with postpartum depression. And I didn't realize I was
struggling with postpartum depression until I hadmy second And as I saw my second
(29:15):
daughter sixteen or eighteen months later,and I realized that the feelings, the
feelings that I had were not normalin the sense that the thoughts that I
had were dangerous thoughts. And andso I actually joined a mother's community called
fit for Mom Woodland Davis, andwe did exercise, we did book clubs,
(29:37):
we did mom's night outs, andwe promoted the idea of like community
and motherhood, and we would domeal trains for each other if someone was
having a hard time, if somebodyhad a baby, and they're some of
my closest friends to this day,and just recognizing that there's support out there.
(29:57):
It's like, instead of re chingfor that glass of wine when you're
feeling alone, you reach for support. You reach for another mother, another
woman, another person who understands whatyou're going through. The opposite of addiction,
I think is connection. And sothat's what we're That's what the solution
(30:18):
was for me, was realizing thatit was not going to be inside of
a substance or inside of a drink. If the answer was not in there,
it was with asking for help throughother people. That is an absolutely
fantastic message. I love that theanswer was in connection. That is that's
a That's that's wonderful. I reallylike that. That's awesome. Thank you.
(30:40):
Um, so you have this littlesaga going on, you're queering.
You know, you got this book, Um, where can people follow you
online? Where's the best place forpeople to follow the progress of your message
about recovery, all your positive messagesabout that, as well as your progress
as an author. Where can peoplefollow you? Yeah, I would love
for people to follow along. Soon Twitter, I'm wit and spit Up
(31:03):
WI t and spit Up, andon Instagram I'm also wit and spit Up.
This was from my blog that Istill have. Uh this is You
can also click on that to getto my writer's website, which I have
all of my podcasts, my everythingthat I've been on, everything that I've
written is on there as well.I also have like moms meditations and different
(31:29):
things like that that I've written forthe for the women's community. We do
yoga and I will often read meditationsand so I've written those for I wrote
a bunch for women in the pandemicand they're just guides that people can use
and go to um. And thenalso I just I finally, I guess
joined TikTok and Reluctant reluctantly and Iam Jess stays sober on TikTok and I
(31:57):
started doing conversations just like this whereI give people examples of situations that might
come up. I just did oneabout what happens in the summer. Summer
is so associated with like barbecues anddrinking, and like, how can I
still stay sober and have fun inthe summer and what does that look like?
You know, I have ten yearsunder my belt and I'm a really
(32:21):
social person. I love going out, I love going to concerts, I
love dancing. I love people,and I wanted to kind of give them
tips. And I was like,well, what's an avenue for me to
do that? And it's just meon TikTok recorded messages of hope of like
you can do this, and here'show try this strategy. This is what
I did. You know, neverever ride with someone, drive yourself so
(32:46):
you can leave if you need to. Just these these little things that I've
learned through other people, either inrecovery or just in my own experience.
And so yeah, that's great.I really liked the message, and uh,
TikTok you know, you can saya lot about it, but I
gotta tell you for creators right now. You know, I'm going to say,
(33:07):
between the changes that are happening inTwitter and with what's going on with
TikTok Um, I'm not so sure, the meta universe. I mean,
it's still important, you know,Facebook page is still important for your for
your author page or what have you. But there's some real activity happening in
other places right now. And yeah, it's great that you're doing that.
(33:28):
I'm gonna have to because I havea TikTok accunt as well. I don't
spend a lot of time on it. Yeah, but I'll pray for you
everybody, all my podcast friends day, Hey, you know you should do
something on there. I don't.I don't. I'm pretty sure people don't
want to see me dance, butyeah, maybe maybe I never know what
I mean, you pick the viralthat way, and then you know that's
all you get. That's how youget all the follow ups. It's one
(33:50):
of those things that you just haveto recognize that it's part of the process
when in being a writer, andlike, I want to hide behind my
book. I want to be aface of recovery. I want to be
a face of motherhood and strength andall of these things. I don't want
to I have a lot to sayon the page, but I also think
(34:13):
it's important to sort of step outin other places that I can access more
people and give like a hopeful message, and this is one of them,
you know. I know we foundeach other on Twitter, and it's only
because I've made a conscious decision whereI was like, yeah, Twitter can
be a very toxic, dangerous placesometimes, but when you find the right
(34:36):
pockets of communities that are there tosupport one other, it's actually a really
beautiful place and and really good thingscan happen there. And a lot of
amazing things have transpired us as aresult of just putting it out there.
That's fantastic for those of you whoare listening. If you want to follow
me on Twitter, you can dothat. I'm at Billy D's. That's
(34:57):
kind of the screen name that Iuse for just about everything. I don't
get to fancy with a bunch ofdifferent screen names that people can't follow,
Like, use the same one foreveryone. You can follow me on Twitter.
You just have to be nice,That's what I always say. Sometimes
they are, sometimes they're not,that's right, or you just get blocked,
you know, and you know what, sometimes the you know, sometimes
the naysayers can help drive your analytics. That's especially true on TikTok. Yeah,
(35:22):
so I'm if if if haters aregoing to help me, come on
and hate I'm Billy dies on TikTokas well. I'm being facetious of course,
right. Well. The thing,the thing that I've learned about this
type of stuff is i'd say thisoften to people. I would hate someone
like me in the late stages ofmy addiction. I would be a very
(35:46):
scary person to hear, because firstof all, I wouldn't want to believe
me. I would find all theways to discredit me. I'm talking about
something that's really uncomfortable and drawing amention to a topic that if you're in
it, and you're in the denialstage, you're in the really suffering stage.
(36:07):
Of course, of course you don'twant to hear from someone like me
like I'm much too happy, I'mmuch too positive about it, Like she
must be full of crap. Um. I assure you that I am not.
I have my dark days too,but I I'm gonna be that.
I'm gonna be that voice because Icannot tell you the number of people that
reach out to me and say thingslike I needed to hear this, or
(36:31):
I relate to this, or myhusband is struggling and I feel alone and
and it's like I'm it's for thosepeople, yea, and I that's that's
why I do it, and it'sit's it helps my recovery as well because
I hear the stories that I needto hear of other people struggling and the
(36:52):
reminder of what's available to me outin the addiction world if I ever choose
to go back. Well, right, well, I gotta tell you that's
a that's a great positive message.And yes, the success in sobriety when
you're with other people feeds more success. That's absolutely true. We have been
talking to Jessica. Do you saythe sea or is that is that party?
(37:15):
How? Or you just go byby Jessica Guarary Jessica, Yes,
all right, Well Jessica, thankyou so much for being on the podcast.
I wish you nothing but success.Stay in touch and you might have
to visit us again and give usan update. Thank you so much for
being on the program. Thank youso very much. I really appreciate it
(37:35):
absolutely. My name is Billy D's. You can find the Billidi's podcast pretty
much anywhere you find podcasts, andlike I mentioned, you can find me
on just about any social media platform. But I'm gonna say Twitter is kind
of like my social media home.At Billy D's, thank you very much
for listening to the podcast today andwe will talk to you again next week.
(37:59):
You're dog is cute, your kidsare adorable, and your cat really
does look good in that too too. But there's only so many times you
can talk about how cool the lossraptors are or how much you want to
rub that fuzzy belly. How abouta podcast with extraordinary people and scintillating conversation.
(38:20):
It's a Derrek Duval show. Buyingit at Derrek Duval Show dot com,
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or whereveryou find your podcasts, and no,
I will not be attending your cats. Kincinera. I'm Billy DS and
host of the self titled podcast,The Billy D's Podcast. We are primarily
(38:42):
an interview and a commentary based podcastfeaturing authors and creators talking about their craft,
advocates for community issues, and myselfin an array of co host discussing
current events. There's no partisan rentingand raving going on here, just great
content. You can find The Billide'sPodcast on your favorite platform and on Twitter
at Billy D's. Thank you,and I hope you listen in
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!