147. [Georgia] The Flint River Killer

In 1977, police find two bodies of females on the banks of the Flint River in Georgia. They quickly believe they might have a serial killer at work. The case will go cold but modern DNA technology will finally bring justice for the families.

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Music courtesy of Blanche

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hey, everyone, welcome, bless this mess, and if you're grown podcast,
I don't care. Here what's Tuesday? Stu? All right, we're
back this week and we are going to Georgia.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Georgia.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm going to say no, no, anyways, we're gonna get
to the point this week because one it's late.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
And two it's not late.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Chitty chatted a little too much last week, I feel like.
But the problem was is we were doing a case
out of New Orleans, and we've been to New Orleans
multiple times, so we had some stories.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
So we did have stories.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
If last week was your first week listening. We do
chit chat during the podcast, a little bit a meander,
but not that much. That was an their level of
chit chat.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yes, that's Kara drinks way too much when we're in
New Orleans.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Stu drinks away. I'm not the one that fell asleep
on a cooler. Okay, we're not rehashing this all right, So,
like I said, this week, we're going to Georgia. But
let's take Kara some business first. We have our Patreon
dot com where you get the episodes twenty four hours
earlier in ad free, and then we are also doing
shoot the poo with Karen Stew once a week.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
I love how you just ran with that name that
sounds rhymes with my name. Right after I was like, eh.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
You said it on the first one. I said, oh
that's great.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yes, I know, so sure, bedballing, And you're like, Hey,
the one that's that rhymes with pooh and Stew. That's
the one we're going to Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yes, that's what we're gonna know with. Anyways, Well, you
can't say shoot the shit with Karen Stew. That doesn't rhyme,
so you need something similar that rhymes. Anyways, that's one.
So this week we're going to be Oh, it's not
this week.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
It was.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Last week we talked about Brian Kolberger the relent in
this documentary, and then we talked about the Texas serial killer,
possibly Stew, which also is something I'd like to do
a little bit more in depth. I'd like to to
run that one down Stew.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Okay, we're going to solve it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
I don't feel like people are looking as close as
they should be with this whole situation, because thirty eight
bodies from twenty twenty two to now is like too
many to be a coincidence.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
I know, nobody's drinking out of that damn.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Like, I know, can you imagine, just like do people
just function in there? They're going there, fish dead bodies everywhere.
That's like a lot of dead bodies.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, I don't think they were all in there at
one time.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
But there had to been at some point.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well yeah, but I mean, if all the dead bodies
are in there at one time when you're eating.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
One dead body is too much for me to be
fishing out of their stew.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, fish pea in there and they poop in there, so.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
All right anyways, So yeah, so check that out. That's
something we started doing each week where we just kind
of talk about random true crime news going on, and
then we gibber jabber about our lives. So if you
hate it, if you hate that part of the podcast, though, don't, it's.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Not for you, it really is.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
And then we have Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, TikTok. I've been
doing really well on I.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Feel like who knew, who knew?

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Anyways, I share a lot of documentaries because I watch
a lot of or episodes of true crime episodes. There
are like recommendations of what you should watch and then
we have bias a coffee, which we really appreciate everybody
who has taken pity on me and bought me a coffee,
appreciate you. But I think that's it. Do you have
anything else going on?

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Do you want me to talk Why?

Speaker 1 (03:45):
What are you going to talk about?

Speaker 2 (03:46):
I got nothing to talk about?

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Okay, Well, I know you never have anything to talk about.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
And when I do, you tell me, now, what would it?

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Because it's probably stupid?

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Exactly. You think whatever I got to talk about as stupid.
So you're like, no, we're not going to do that.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
All right, So that is all. We're gonna go ahead
and get to the case. We don't anger people, which
is common around here angering people, all right, So let's
go ahead and get into our case, because this one's
a doozy stew a doozy.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
I don't know if they've heard about it. I've never
heard of It's been a hot minute for for what
for some of our younger listeners.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Not for you, though you're not one of our younger
Well I was alive. I don't think that they. I
don't even think if they are of the age, they
would have heard of this. You never heard of it.
It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Well I didn't. I never followed your crime time I
changed on it. And when you're not around, I don't
watch tree. You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
You're welcome for introducing You're welcome world, all right, So
let's go ahead and get into our case. Out of Georgia.
On December twentieth, nineteen seventy seven, two duck hunters were
wading through the waters of the Flint River in Georgia,
which is just south of Atlanta, when they come upon
a body worshed up on the bank of the rivers.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Do it was what on the bank?

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Huh?

Speaker 2 (05:04):
What was it on the bank?

Speaker 1 (05:07):
You know, there's a portion of the country that says
it the same exact way I do. There's an actual
song of a country singer worshiping all my worries down
the drain. Rain is a good thing, he says it,
just like I do.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, Corn does make my girl a little frisky. Not
to night, I mean, whiskey, what I say, Corn makes
my girl fresky. I forgot I forgot.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
The okay, still again true? Not to night, all right?
So they immediately leave and call police please arrive on
the scene to find a very decomposed body of a woman.
They can tell she's been in the water a long
time because the skin has because she has skin slippage,
which do really fixated on that. It sounds so disgusting. Yes,

(05:54):
she also had a plastic bag wrapped around her head.
There was a chain with a cinder block that was
used to weight her down. As they further and investigated,
they realized that she did not die to the plastic
bag however, or the drowning. There were actually two gunshot
wounds in her head. Now, the gun appeared to be
a thirty thirty eight caliber pistol. Now, as they are

(06:16):
processing this scene, there's another officer standing up on a
bridge kind of just looking out, you know, canvassing the
scene and everything like that. And he looks over and
he sees a red bag on the other bank of
the like the other side, the other bank of the river.
So they pull the sleeping so it ends up being
they go over there and investigate, ends up being a

(06:36):
red sleeping bag. They pull that sleeping bag out of
the river, unzip it, and to their horror, stew horror,
they find another body of a woman. Now this body
was much more fresh. It had only been in the
water a few days and the level of decomposition had
not occurred like the other body. There was no skin
slippage stew if you will.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
That is disturbing that.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yes. Upon the initial investigation, they found that she had
been shot in the abdomen, the leg, and the head.
So again the manner of death was not drowning or
anything like that.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Gunshot wounds, yes, which is just like these not paying attention.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yes, they also found that her pants had been cut
out around the crotch area, indicating a sexual assault. But
due to the fact that the body had been in water,
little or no evidence would have been able to be
obtained from a rape like doing a rape kit and
stuff with that, even in modern technology, not let alone
back in nineteen.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, because the only thing they can do in nineteen
seventy seven is type the blood.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, so they wouldn't Even if they were able to
do a rape kick, none of that stuff would have
been available to save for future testing. Now it appeared
that the same caliber gun had been used in this
murder as well. Police are immediately concerned that they are
dealing with a serial killer, as two bodies have been
found near each other with the same manner of death.

(07:58):
Another aspect of this case that is that there will
be actually two sheriff's departments investigating these because the first
body was found one bank, yes, on the Clayton County
side of the river, and then that second body was
found on the other bank, which is the Fayette side
of the river. Now they both are still in Georgia,
but it is two different sheriff's department because you know

(08:21):
it's a river of usually rivers separate county counties, Yes,
things like that. Now, the clay County Sheriff's department is
going to have a much more difficult time as their
body has been in the water for much much longer.
Now the body on the Fayete side of the river
is just a few days old, so they have a
lot more options when they're investigating who this body belongs to.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Now, on a side note, I find it interesting and
that in nineteen seventy seven they find two bodies in
the river and they're concerned about a serial killer, and
in twenty twenty two to twenty twenty five they find
thirty eight bodies in a lake and they're like, no,
they're not, there's no serial killer. It's fine.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Well, ever, they're saying they're trying not to cause a panic,
but they anyways, I really would like to do a
more of a deep dive into that, but we're not
going to do it right now. But one of them
was definitely classified as yes, one of them. Well, the
rest of the country is like this sketchy.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
It's sketchy. It could be a serial killer. There's thirty eight.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Now it's fine, it's fine, it's really just fine.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
Just accidents.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
And if that's the case, though, then they should be
having some sort of railing or something to prevent drunk
people from wandering into the lake. But I don't understand anyways, Okay,
we're not going to get into it because it's a
rabbit hole.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
So it's a tangent.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
If you want to hear more about what we think
about it, check out Shoot the Poo with Karen Stick
on payte But it is in Texas, though, so we
could do I would like to do a deeper dive,
no pun intent, i'ake. We could actually visit the place
because it's not that far from us in Texas. Time
for the Yes.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, Fayette County Sheriff's Department.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
They start first looking into any missing person cases that
they had, and they were quickly able to identify the victim.
Their victim, which is the one that was in the
water less time as thirty one year old Lyddy Evans.
Lyddy was a divorced mother of four who was living
with her twenty eight year old firefighter boyfriend, a fellow

(10:25):
that went by the name of Joe Cleveland.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
Which I kiper she's got a younger man.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, Joe Cleveland kind of sounds like Joe dirt.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
I thought Joe Cleveland sound like he should be like
a football star. Yeah, maybe quarterback or something.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Police are looking for Joe. Nobody can seem to find Joe,
so they start asking the family and friends if anybody
seen Joe or Lyddy. Now, the family says the last
time they saw Lyddy and Joe was December seventeenth. They
were supposed to be heading out of town to Panama City,
Florida flow Rider.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
You can't even say Florida, Oh my God to say.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
With some friends, Joe is known to hang out with
some shady characters. However, friends and family don't believe that
he's the type of person that would ever hurt Lyddy.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, because right now he's prime suspect because the girlfriend's
dead and they can't find him. I mean, I mean,
who else would do it? But yeah, his friends and
family just were not convinced that.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
They feeling that he would do such a thing.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Meanwhile, on the Clayton County side, they were running down
dental records to try to determine who the woman was
in the river that had the skin slippage.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Is that going to be our new drinking game?

Speaker 1 (11:43):
No, But I just did it for you because he
bothered you so much the first couple of times you
heard it.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
It still it's going to bother him the next ten
times I hear it.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Okay, So they were able to get a match to
forty five year old Betty Joe Efflyn. Now Betty Joe
was originally from Fort Worth, Texas, but she became a
truck driver, which was pretty advanced. I feel like that
she's like really breaking some glass ceilings for the ladies
back in the seventies, you know. And she ended up
and down and ended up down in Georgia that summer. Well,
Betty Joe, now she was a good time girls do.

(12:14):
She loved to drink she loved men, She loved a party,
my kind of girl. Yep. Loved to hang out at
the bars. Oh yeah, yep, probably those hole in the
wall bars like you like. She also loved to do drugs.
So during her time down in Georgia, she met a
man named Fred Wyatt. Now Fred was also a truck driver,

(12:36):
but while he was transporting legal loads, he also was
transporting illegal loads.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Which involved drugs.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, drugs, specifically marijuana. Now, Betty Joe's daughter did meet Fred,
and she did immediately did not like him.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
Now, Betty Joe's daughter was a grown woman, So she was.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
A child, No, she was grown, yes, yeah, so she
was probably in her twenties that she's meeting him. Yeah,
Betty Joe didn't just abandon her seven year old back
in Texas to Georgia. She was, she had a grown daughter.
But the daughter did come down she met Fred. She
was just not feel feeling Fred at all. She got
some bad vibes off vibes off ful Fred, but which

(13:18):
she was correct though, because he's, you know, illegally transporting
drugs and things like that. And well, yes, so she
felt that he was just soulless, Like she said, she
looked into his eyes and they just were dark and soulless,
and immediately did not like him. They also started or
She also started noticing bruising on her mother's arms, and

(13:42):
she did confront her about them, and Betty Joe would
always just make excuses, but the daughter did believe that
Fred was abusing her. Now, despite these issues and warnings
from her family, Betty Joe continued the relationship and ended
up marrying Fred after just a couple months of knowing him.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Courting.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yes, courting, if that's what you want to call me
for doing. Courting, yes, so she she quickly ran into
a marriage with Fred despite these huge red flags. Thought, yes, Stuart,
you say that every time.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well you keep saying red flax.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
I know, but that's a common.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
For I thought you were setting me up.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Okay, Well, red flags just looked like flags when you
got your rose colored glasses on. You want me to
say that every time too, Okay.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Police find out that Betty had been reporting missing by
her daughter, and the weeks leading up to finding the
body Betty's Betty Joe's daughter believed that Fred was most
likely the suspect that had something to do with her disappearance.
So police go looking for old Fred, but they knock
on the door nobody's home. So now they have two

(14:51):
bodies of women, two missing spouses. Both spouses had Sketchy
passed and were connected to the drug trade. They keep
looking for Fred, and they quickly find out that Old
Fred had been killed in a car accident. His car
had collided with the train. They pulled a file for
the train accident, and you can see in the photos

(15:13):
he slumped over the front seats like he's laying with
his body toward the passengers.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Show imagine, imagine a photo. Imagine so if you get
if you're in a car and you get killed, your
feet are probably going to be down near the gas
pedals and things like that. Imagine just a body basically
laid over with their head in the passenger seat, their
legs hanging out of the vehicle, both legs on the

(15:38):
driver's hide on the driver's side, and the door open
like this was clearly not this, Clearly something else was
going on.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yeah, because he hit the train. The train didn't hit him,
according to the photos and the and the accident.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
Okay, he ran into the side of the train.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
He ran into the side of the train. He wasn't
on the track.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, so his body would it wouldn't like necessarily even then,
you wouldn't necessarily have died unless.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
It was, you know, the train actually hits you.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, the train, because you could hit the front and
still be alive. You could still survive that.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Now, with all these murders around Fred, they decided to
exhumee the body and re examine his injuries. They quickly
realized that Fred did not actually die from the car wreck,
but that he had two twenty two caliber bullets in
the back of his head. His death was reclassified from
whatever it was to a homicide.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
And by whatever it was, he means it was classified
as an accident originally, but now it's a homicide.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
I don't know what accidental car accident.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
No, it's called an accident. Store they just labeled an accident,
all right.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
I don't know that's what they labeled this part of Georgia.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, my question is is it was he was? It
was clearly like not. The scene did not portray that,
So I'm good. I've kind of felt like after we
go through this, people may may agree. I felt like
that it was somebody behind the scene was a part
of this, you think, Yes.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
I think somebody was like, man, my chif's about the end.
I gotta get high. I don't far to do that.
Where's the coroner? Where did somebody call them? Yeah? We
called him. He was sleeping, he was at his girlfriend's house.
Bl blah blah blah, he's passed off. He's coming in.
He's like, yeah, all right, die in the train accident.
I gotta go.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Okay, maybe I could see that happening too, all right. See,
they start looking into who could possibly benefit from Fred's death.
He was involved with drugs and had some criminal activity
in the past, but he also had a thirteen thousand
dollars life insurance policy.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
Big money yep back then.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Sure, Now the policy did not go to Betty Joe,
and in his death it would actually go to a
woman named Mary Marie, not Mary Marie Jackson Wyatt now
Marie Jackson. She was not actually his wife. It was
an old girlfriend, but she would call herself his wife,

(18:10):
and she even took on his last name. That's why
she had the same last name as him. Now. She
lived with Fred for four years, but then he met
Betty Joe and left Marie and he met her while
he was living with Old Marie in a trailer. He
met Betty Joe, and then Marie was wondering.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
What it was a double one.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Marie was kind of wondering where he'd been for the
last few like week or two. He just wasn't coming home,
and come to find out, he'd you know, started a
whole new life with old Betty Joe over their good
time Betty Joe. So, please are wondering if Marie was
the one who killed who would kill Betty Joe and Fred,
because they're both dead at this point, and she was
the one who would benefit financially, and she's obviously actually

(18:50):
you know, angry at the two of them, but she insisted,
so they go talk to her. She insists that she
did not have anything to do with the murders and
that Fred was just a shady person and there was
lots of people that would want Fred dead, and the
police were like, yeah, you're.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Probably probably right. Yeah, he's a sketchy sound betch Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
She said, if they want any answers to what's going on,
the best person to talk to would be Carl Patten,
which was Fred's nephew and his enforcer. If someone owed
him money in this drug trade. So he's really really
entrenched in this lifestyle with Fred and knows all the
inner workings and happenings of his drug empire.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Meanwhile, on the Fayette side of the river, the police
are still looking for Joe Cleveland. Since Clayton and Fayett
were sharing information and working together, they had mentioned the
name Carl.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Pat Clayton mentioned the name Carl.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
Pet Clayton mentioned the name. They're the ones that got that.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, got that information from Marie. So they're telling the
Fayette side, Hey, we got this guy named Carl Patten.
And this sends up a red flag for the Fayette
Sheriff's Department.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yes, because when they're speaking to family and friends about
Lyddy and jose vacation, they were told that they were
going to go on vacation with Carl and Norma Patten
as the people there, they're they're associates. Yep, this connection
just seems to be too suspicious to be a coincidence.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, I mean, it's a small town, but it ain't
that small. No, There's that's just too weird. So the
Fayette County Sheriff's Department, they go to speak to Carl
Patten and his wife Norma. Well, they bring up Fred
and Betty Joe as well. They're investigating the whole Lady
Joe side, but now they have all this information, so
they do talk to him about Fred and Betty Joe,

(20:37):
and Carl says that he knows them, and that they
also bring up the ex wife.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
It actually turns out that Fred is Carl's uncle.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
We already said that, We already said that, where were you,
Marie said? Marie said that his nephew and his inform
Sir is Carl.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Wow, it's just like not even okay, I'm reminding people
that weren't paying attention, like I wasn't okay.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
Always brings in like this big like it's like we
mentioned that three paragraphs back, all right.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Huh, all right.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
So he mentions that he does know Fred, and he
knows Betty Joe, and he's also still good friends with
Fred's ex girlfriend Marie. Now they seem pretty relaxed whenever
they're talking about Fred and Betty, But all of a sudden,
the police department brings up Joe and Lyddy, and all
of a sudden, both of them, Norma and Carl seem
to get a little bit unsettled when speaking about the

(21:40):
last time that they saw them. They said they were
supposed to go on a trip to Panama City with
the couple, which is panning out with what everybody else said.
But at the last minute they called Lyddy and Joe
got into a huge fight, and so they called up
Norma and Carl and called off the whole trip. Now,
please are suspicious of this answer because Carl and Norma

(22:02):
do not seem concerned at all. So this is their
friends that are going on a trip with, and they're
not concerned at all about that their friends are actually missing.
They're not inquiring about them. Oh my god, I'm questions.
They're like, oh my god, We're like the first thing,
if we had friends that we were supposed to go
on it and then they canceled on us. Whatriends that

(22:23):
we're going to go on a trip with?

Speaker 2 (22:24):
The other if we had friends.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
If we had friends that we were going to go
on a trip with, and the last thing we heard
from them was they got in a fight and canceled
the trip. The first thing that when police came over
and say, oh my god, we're supposed to go on
a trip with them. They got in a fight. Is
something you know going on with them? What's happening? So anyways,
they quickly take a glance at Carl's vehicle as they're
heading out, and they find some blood on the back trunk.

(22:49):
Now this is evidence enough for them to go ahead
and bring Carl and Norma into the station on like
suspicions and everything. While they paint a search. Weren't for
their home and inside that home, so they get their
research warrant. They go back in. Inside the home, they
find a blood stained cushion. They also found a two
thirty eight caliber shell casings, as well as a sleeping

(23:10):
bag that was very similar to the one Liddy was founded.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Police process the items and find that the blood type
on the pillow matches Liddy's blood type, which is actually
a very rare blood type. And then only five percent
of the population have that blood type.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah, it with some sort of a something like a
negative or something like that. It was something real that
it was very small, very few people.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Have, unlike myself, which I match probably everybody.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Well, see I have the blood type that everybody can use.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yes, that's why I marriage you.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yes, you guys are useless to me. I think we've
talked about this before. All of you are useless because
you all have like the AB or whatever and I
have the O positive, which everybody I can give to you,
but you guys can't help me. No, I'm just I
am just free to all of you. Any you'll just
watch me die.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yes, we'll use you for organ.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Suck me dry, you know, classic mother child relationship.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Anyhow, any hoosel please take all this evidence to the
district attorney. And while they believe that Karl and Norma
did have something to do with the killings, all of
the evidence is circumstantial because they can't type. They can't
they can't do DNA at this time to find out
that this is Liddy's blood.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
So yeah, all they have is that they were going
to go on a vacation with them and then they canceled.
And then they have some blood on a cushion that matches.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
And the trunks and.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
A little bit. But the blood on the trunk doesn't
match either one of them.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Could have been you cut your hand and yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
The blood on the back of the trunk doesn't match
either Joe or Lyddy. So they it's all circumstantial and
it's very weak at best, because you just need, you know,
just a reasonable doubt to not convict.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
Somebody, and then all of a sudden there's no double jeopardy.
So yeah, can't bring them back in if you do
find out they were So anyway, the point of this
is the DA is like, well, we don't take it fly,
you got to go find something else. So Karl and
Norma are released with no charges.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Well, meanwhile, the Clayton County Sheriff's Department was getting their
own search. Weren't for the patent property. Now they had
discovered that Carl and Joe had cleaned out the house
of Fred and Betty. So this is Joe that's missing
and Fred. Oh, I think we mentioned it's not Joe's
blood either, but we haven't mentioned we said it wasn't

(25:38):
Liddy's or Joe's blood. Yeah, because we don't know what
happened to Joe yet. We still haven't found Joe. We
found let's recap because this is very confusing. I understand it.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
There's a lot of people it's oh, it's.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
It's it's I feel like it's less confusing than last
week when we had never in Worry. That was super
confusing and we probably should have used like code names
for them that weren't never in Worry like inn in
w anyway, So right now, let's recap. We have Betty
Joe who was found on the Clayton side that had
been in the water for a long time. She was

(26:07):
married to Fred, who was found crashed into the train
but then was exhumed and discovered to actually be a homicide.
And then we have Lyddy who was on the Fayet
side of the river and she was found just a
few days. She'd only been in the water a few days.
We do not know where Joe is currently.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
And Lyddy and Joe were an item and Betty Joe
and Fred.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yes, So the Clayton County finds out that Carl and
Joe had cleaned out the house of Fred and Betty Joe,
which they had no right to those belongings whatsoever. I mean,
it was his nephew, but he's not he's Betty Joe.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
To take it.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah, So they bring Betty Joe's daughter with them so
she can identify any of her mother's belongings inside the
patent home. Well, she quickly recognized her mother's bedroom, furniture,
various pieces of jewelry, photos, basically all of her mother's
belongings are in now in this home with Norma and
Carl now normal. To top it off, was even wearing
Betty Joe's vest, and whenever Betty Joe's daughter saw it,

(27:13):
she said, she went and attacked her.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
She said, the last things to remember was having her
hands around our throat.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah. So, after discovering that the patents stole most of
Betty Joe and Fred's belongings, they are certain that they
had to have something to do with their murders. However,
one big piece of the puzzle is still missing, and
that is where is Joe Cleveland? Who knows, probably playing
a football game somewhere.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
I suspect police would finally get their answers four months
after discovering Liddy and Betty Joe, when Joe Cleveland's body
is discovered wrapped in a sleeping bag. It was weighted
down with chains and cinder blocks and the O oak
mulgi stew, I'm gonna butcher it, oak oak mulgy.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
I was born. Oklahoma's the old mogi. Okay, that's how
you say.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Well, it's about sixty miles away, and the manner of
death was gunshot wounds to the head with a thirty
eight caliber pistol. It was clear that whoever killed Lyddy
and Betty Joe also killed Joe along with a similar
cause of death. They also found that the blood found
on the trunk of Carl's vehicle matched the blood type

(28:25):
of Joe. But again, this is all circumstantial.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
Very very weird, circumstantial. But Carl and Joe hung out
and did nefarious things together, so.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
They could have cut his hand whenever they were going
duck huner or something. They did not have DNA back
in nineteen seventy eight.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
As they had, they didn't have DNA testing.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Okay, DNA testing, squeeze me. On top of just circumstantial evidence,
they also did not have a motive as to why
Carl would kill Freddy. Freddy Well, Freddy and Betty were
next to each other, So fred Betty, Joe and Lyddy
and Joe.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
I mean they were all friends of him with them.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah. Yeah, So at this point there's nothing police can
do other than let Carl just go about his business.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
They think he's done something with this, but they can't.
They have they have, So twenty five years would pass?

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Twenty five years?

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yes, when a cold case detective picks up the files
to see if there's anything he can do with more
modern technology in terms of DNA evidence. Now, as he's
looking through the files, he finds a photo of that
pillow that was blood stain, that had that blood stain
on it, and he knows that if he can get
his hands on that pillow, then he can find the killer.
But it's been twenty five years, so was the evidence

(29:43):
maintained properly? Is the evidence even here? I mean we've
we've heard of things like, oh, yeah, there was a
flood and we throw all the out, Yeah, we threw
everything away. Well, to his surprise, he was able to
locate that pillow and scent it off for DNA testing.
Now that pillow comes back to match Lyddy Evans. They
now have like this solid evidence that Lyddy was killed

(30:05):
in the patent's home because the amount of blood that
was on the pillow, it's specifically tied to Lyddy and
she has found murdered.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Police find out that Carl has since moved to a
place called Locust Grove, Georgia, and he's working as a
roofer inbuy on February twenty third, two thousand and three,
then went to his house to arrest him. He was
in bed at the time with his wife, Norma. Carl
was taken into custody while Norma was taken into another

(30:34):
room of the house to be interviewed by police. The
detective told Norma that if she would tell the truth,
she might be able to get out of this without
an hil time. But she said, no, I'm going to
stand by my man.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
No, she says.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
She flipped on Carl in a heartbeat, like she was
a pancake. Yeah, she started singing what I found.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
So whenever they showed pictures of Carl being arrested and everything,
and he's got man boobs, a big building. I don't
know how he's a roofer. He would have just crashed
that probably, yes, And you know, I'm not the thinnest person.
But I'm going to make fun of Carl because he
killed a lot of people. So it's coming to you.

(31:13):
We're gonna make fun of your band boobs. He needed
to have a sports brawn. It looked painful just to walk,
all right. So Norma tells police that Carl did not
have a good relationship with Fred Wyatt, his uncle. She
said Fred was a mean son of a bitch and
would frequently beat Carl. Now, Carl also felt that Fred

(31:35):
was shorting him on some of the drug deals. And
you know this, this lines up because the daughter of Betty, Joe,
believed that Fred was abusing her as well.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Now, as we mentioned before, Carl was still good friends
with Marie, which was Fred's ex girlfriend. Now, Carl did
not like the way that Fred had treated Marie. Apparently
Fred was abusive to her as well, and Marie would
often confide in Carl about fred behavior. Now this gave
motive for Carl to kill Fred. They're starting to see
more of the picture coming together.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yes, so Carl's needing help to commit his crime so
against Fred, So he enlists his friend Joe Cleveland to
assist in the killing. Joe had always wanted to get
in the same business as Carl. I guess being a
firefighter was dull.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Work for Joe, not paying the bills. I mean, I
don't know what he was real jealous of, Like all
the money that Carl seemed to always have.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
He was all flashing around. Yes, and Joe wanted a
taste of that lifestyle.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Like Joe had like a single wide and Carl had
a double wife. Exactly Like when we're talking about flashing
money people, we're not talking about life. We're talking about
He had matching you know, sheets, like a matching towel set.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Was really he was able to go to Cole's and
get the bedspread with a thorough pill.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yes, he was really living it up.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Carl and Joe headed over to Fred's home and they
were greeted by Betty Joe. She tells him that Fred
is on a long haul trip and then he won't
be back for some time.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Who knows, Fred could have had a whole other family
somewhere else. He did that to Marie Betty Joe.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Now, Betty Joe's making small talk and speaking about how
much she loves Fred and how great her new marriage is.
They're like two months into this new marriage and Carl's
getting pissed off and he's just sitting over there fuman
and Joe can see that Carl is fhuman.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Because he's on Marie's side with all this. He's still
upset that Fred cheated on Marie with Betty Joe.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
I would think you'd be happy that Marie wasn't getting
beat by Fred anymore. But for some reason, he's mad.
He's just mad. Well, Joe sees all this going down,
and according to the story, what we can gather is
Joe takes it upon himself to just pull out the
gun and start blasting away at Betty. Joe.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yes, apparently Joe was trying to prove himself to be Carl.
He sees Carl getting upset about this. I'm sure he
knew a little bit of the back like history and
things like that, and so he takes it upon himself
to just really make this big, bold move and he
thinks he's gonna win Carl over and be able to
join his crime family. Because there was another part of
this where Carl everyone had these rumors he was part

(34:19):
of the Dixie MAFI or whatever. Yes, I don't think
he actually was, but that was what he was rumored
to be, so they're preody be scared of him.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yes, So that's going on. Joe's trying to make a
little inroads with Carl, and Carl's like, holy shit, what
the hell you don't show? All right, Okay, well we
got to do now? Is we got to clean this
shit up. So they quickly wrap Betty Joe up in
trash bags, They strip her out of her clothes, place
her in the trunk of her own vehicle, and then

(34:47):
they drive her down to the Flint River. They dispose
of the body. They weighed it down with cinderblocks and chains,
and as they're finishing up, Carl warns Joe that he
better not tell a soul about what just happened.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah, you can't be running your mouth. I mean, I mean,
that's the basic rules.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, evidently for this to end up in the story,
Joe must have been some guy that ran his trap
a lot.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yes, well he did run his trap a lot. What
are you talking about how it ended up in the story.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Well, if they're like and the reenactment, Carl's like specifically
telling him don't run, I know why.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
It does, Stewart, we know why. He said that.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
He must have been known for running his mouth a
lot though about other things.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
Well, no, if he just told him not to say anything,
how would he know he was running his mouth about
killing people? If that's the first person Joe had ever killed.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
But if he probably ran his mouth about other ship
likes Okay, drug stuff, and you're not he was a
gossip people.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
Well then why would he bring him in if he
thought that about him. I don't know that was that
doesn't make any sense. They specifically said it because of
what Joe's actions are later.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Okay, well I understand that. But if you would trust fella,
you wouldn't have to be like, hey, don't tell anybody
that we just did this in the paraly.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Sometimes you just need to say things just to make
sure everybody understands, Hey, you're not going to tell such
and such that I said this, right unless right, No,
you just say to people just it's a general statement,
all right. A month later, Carl is back at his
original mission, which was to kill sorry people, that was
a very long thing because Stue's asked Stuart, all right,

(36:29):
So Carl's back at his original mission because I mean,
they killed Betty Joe, but the plan was to kill Fred,
so he needs to progress this this part of the
original plan. He calls Fred and he makes a plan
to head out to do some target practice with their guns. Now,
as they are drinking and shooting guns, Fred asked Carl
if he knew what happened to Betty Joe because at

(36:49):
this point Carl was just telling police I think she
just ran off, which I mean, she wasn't the most
stable human. She was into drugs, drinking, truck carverer she
could have that could have been very well a possibility.
This is when Carl decides to just shoot Fred in
the head out there because they're out there doing middle
nowhere some bear can.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
They're drinking bear shooting bear cans with their twenty two's.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
So Carl calls up Joe to help him out with
staging that car crash with the train. Joe comes out
and helps Carl load up Fred in his car and
then they go and push it in the train. That's
why his body was not well.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Joe actually drove the car into the train, toward the
train and then jumped out.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
As he jumped out, Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yes, and then they pulled his stage to his body
in the front seat.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yes, okay, Yes, it was clearly staged. Thank you Stu
for that.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
You are welcome.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Norma continues to tell place how Lyddy and Joe were murdered.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yes, again, all this that we're talking about is strictly
from Norma she is spilling the beans.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
On this Carl. Carl clammed up real tight. He was
I'm going to talk.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, he had to go put a shirt on.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
He was his orange jumps in.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Yes, that took a long time for him to get
his shirt over his weekend.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Two. Yeah, So a week or two after the murder,
Carl found out that Joe told Lyddy what they had done.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Which again comes back to why in the thing they
said that Carl told him do not tell anybody.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Curious to know if Joe just was a person that
ran his mouth down.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
No, this is this is on Carl because when someone
tells me, don't tell anybody, there's a difference. When someone
tells me don't tell anybody. I'm going to tell you.
I'm not going to tell anybody else. No, there's a difference.
I feel like you need to really specify don't don't
tell Lyddy and don't tell anybody else, because they need

(38:42):
to say don't tell Stu. Because if someone tells me
don't tell anybody, I'm going to tell you. But then again,
that's still in the circle of trust though, because you're
not going to tell anybody. Yeah, but I think there
needs to be a difference because to me, when someone
says this is a secret, don't tell anybody, I'm still
going to tell my spout. And I think other people
are the same way.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
My first husband or second or third.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
No, I'm saying in general, I think.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
You happen to be married to at the time.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
I think people are gonna say, I that doesn't really
include my spouse. Yeah, I'm gonna tell them, but I'm
not gonna tell anybody else. I think when you're a couple,
you're part of person. For wrap myself out, for helping
with them, You're gone, yes, yes, So you're Lyddy and
I'm Joe.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Oh lord, yes, So Carl found out that Joe told
Lyddy what they had done. Yes, Lyddy was she got
told by Joe. So she's freaked out. She calls her
mom and somehow this gets out through the grapevine back
to Carl and he's like, oh this no, this ain't good.

(39:51):
Something's got to happen. So he talks to Norma and
he's like, normal, we gotta shut down all this uh
this talk going on out there, and Norma's like, yeah,
you're right, Carl, we gotta we gotta stop all this.
So this is when they come up with a trip
down to Panama City. So Joe and Norma are like, Hey, Joe, Lyddy, whytch,
y'all come to us with us to Panama.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
City, Joe And I said, Joe and Normal, Yeah, Carl
and Norma like to Panama with us. And Norma is
just going to go along with anything that Carl wants
her to do. She's just in it with him. So
that's whenever Joe and Lyddy they come over to get
ready to go with this trip, and that's how they
ended up in their home.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yes, so Carl's there. They're shooting the ship, they're drinking
a couple of things, blah blah blah. They're playing with
their guns. They're swapping their guns back and forth, and
then Carl he just takes the gun. He shoots at Lyddy.
He shoots her in the leg, he shoots her in
the stomach, then he shoots her in the head. Then
after that he turns to Joe. He shoots Joe right

(40:52):
in the head. Police later find out from Carl that
while Norma was getting I mean because once once Joe
got arrested, he started or once Carl got arrested, he
started talking to police.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah, because they were told like, hey, Norma turned.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Onma fleft, told everything, blah blah. So Carl was like, screwed,
I'm just going to start talking to So they later
find out from Carl that after he shot and killed
Lyddy and sent Norma out to the r V to
get cleaning splies or whatever, she was sleeping bags, sleeping bags,
cleaning splies whatever to clean up the crime, saying he

(41:28):
cut Carl cut a hole in Liddy's crunch and then
he raped her lifeless body because he was supposedly upset that.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
Lyddy made him bail, made him.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Kill Joe, who was his best friend.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yes, it wasn't Joe's fault that he ran his mouth.
He ran his mouth Lyddy's fault for bomb, I guess, yeah,
which explains that the why the crotch was missing out
of her pants whenever they found her.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah. So they get him all wrapped up in the
sleeping by and they disposed of the bodies and the
two different rivers at the time.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yes, and Norma was completely one hundred percent part of this.
Helped push the bodies into the river, help dispose them
help the whole situation. So Norma signs a plea deal
and agrees to testify against Carl to put him behind
bars for the rest of his life, but a trial
would never happen because Carl pled guilty to avoid the
death penalty, similar to Brian Coburger's to hmm, now, I

(42:27):
agree the same amount of bodies too, except for Karl's
got something up a sleeve. He does, yes, but like
I said, he pled guilty, and while agreeing to this
plea deal, he explains to police that the real person,
the real reason why he killed Fred, was actually Marie.
Marie had asked him to kill Fred and promised him
part of that life insurance money if he did this.

(42:49):
I think it was like five thousand dollars worth of it.
He also confesses to killing Marie's first husband, Richard Jackson,
in nineteen seventy three, for the same reasons he killed Fred.
He said that he was mistreating her and then she
had the life insurance. He actually went on trial in
May of twenty twenty, twenty twenty three for that murder,
the murder of Richard Jackson, so in the end he

(43:11):
was sentenced. So he pled to four went on trials
for the one. I don't know why. Maybe they were
just like, we're not going to give you a plea deal.
Probably were like, no, we're not giving you a plea
deal for this. No anyways, but he didn't get a
death penalty for that anyways. In the end, he was
sentenced to five life sentences plus twenty years and then.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Marie, and they were consecutive, not concurrent.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Yes, but he was already he would have already been
like fifty something whenever. He yeah, whenever. So he wasn't
going to get out anyways anyways. And so based on
his physique he definitely wasn't like any good health. Now. Marie, however,
who was behind two of these murders and kind of
set off this chain of events, was never charged because

(43:52):
she actually died of cancer in nineteen ninety eight and
all this came out in two thousand and three.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
So she got away with murder.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
Were like being the person behind it all?

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, accessory, Well, I don't know, instigator.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
A lot of times people that do that to get
charged with the murder themselves too.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yes, well, they can't prove anything. There's no phone calls,
no text no letters. No, nothing.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Well no, but they if she'd been alive, they could
have interviewed her and things like that. She could have
been they could have said, okay, well, if you'll agree
to testify against Carl, then we'll give you whatever. But
she was too old and too bad a health to
stand trial anyways, and she was dead by the time
they figured them out. So yeah, she was all hateful

(44:38):
bitch though, because she turned on old Carl right away.
She's like, hey, go talk to Carl, talk to.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Carl about these deaths.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, so she turned on him straight away. So she's
just terrible person. I don't know why Carl was.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
I don't know. I hadn't turn back on her.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
Well, because he actually did it though, and he killed
Lyddy and Joe Oh, went and kill Marie.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Yeah, adverse killing people.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
But he seemed to dislike her. I don't know, he
will Supposedly she was like his aunt to him and
stuff like that, and he really, like you know, just
latched onto her at the beginning and saw her, yeah,
like a mother's aunt type figure. So all right, well
that is our case. He was technically a serial killer.
He killed five people for different various reasons, not the

(45:24):
reasons that we normally see a serial killer. But he
was a serial killer. He did. He was classified as.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
That, unlike the one or two or three people that
might be involved in the Austin murders.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yes, yes, we will get we will investigate, we will
get to the bottom of We will catch this person.
We will catch this murderer, or we won't.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
If you're the killer listening.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yes, unless you're listening and they're out there and they're
close by, Okay, then now we will never mind. You're fine,
Just just too clear of the lake. Guys, it's not safe,
especially if you're a male between the ages of thirty and.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Forty forty nine.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yes, oh well you're safe.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Just made it.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
Shut up, Kara, all right, Stu, do you have a
yelling Jesus?

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Of course I have a yelling I don't think he does,
ye Jesus.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Okay. Oh, we got to tell the other part of this,
that is my yell need Jesus. Okay, Stu's gonna give
a yo. We have a really good This is similar
to last week where there was like something crazy afterwards.
So go ahead, Stee, tell us your y'all need Jesus.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Okay. Serial killer devastated to learn his daughter was slain.
According to the mother, well, there's a lot.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Of yell need Jesus, people that need.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
Jesus, say Florida, not Florida.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Not Florida.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Coming to us from News Nation by Liz Jason, Updated
August twenty seven, twenty twenty four. Norma Patten, the wife
and accomplice to a serial killer, is also the mourning
mother of a daughter allegedly murdered by a different suspect,
the daughter's husband. Evidently the old Carl was looked at

(47:00):
and to his daughter his own daughter's death. Yeah, because
she was murdered before he got caught. Earlier this month
at Atlanta police arrested Christopher Wolfenbarger.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
What's earlier this month? What year was this?

Speaker 2 (47:15):
This is in? Was it twenty August twenty seven four?
Is the date of the story.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
So, but that was when it was updated. When was
it was that when he was caught.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Yeah, he wasn't caught until after Karl went to jail,
which was twenty twenty three.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
No, Karl went to jail in two thousand and three. Yes,
but she'd been missing for twenty five years. I believe
she was murdered in nineteen ninety nine, Stu, keep reading,
just keep reading, I'll get the dates for the people. Okay, okay,
what happened to Stu's in charge of the research.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Well, her husband was charged with murder and his wife, Melissa,
who was found dead, Her body was dismembered in trash
bags on the side of the road in nineteen ninety nine.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
There we go. Yes, so Carl was still out because
he didn't get caught in till two thousand and three.
So in nineteen ninety nine, he's still out and his
daughter goes missing.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yes, and they didn't find out that Carl Christopher did
this for quite some time after the fact.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, it was twenty five years.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Yes, the arrest may solve a twenty five year old
cold case that involved police questioning Melissa's father, Carl Patten,
the notorious He actually got his own name, the Flint
River Killer. And it wasn't until two thousand and three
that detectives identified Melissa's remains, which were initially found in

(48:43):
black trash bags, and they found her head and some limbs,
but they never did find her.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Well, this could be a whole nother case like called together.
This is a dateline writing itself.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
I mean pretty much. Yeah, the body's DNA was familial
match to her father, so they used the DNN and
then wherever they got a match and coaches they're like, hey,
matchless to the Syria because that's why it.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Would have happened in two thousand and three, because he
got booked in two thousand and three. So then all
of a sudden they were able to identify Melissa.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yes, well yeah, because they had two children. They had
one I think her name was Tina, born in nineteen
seventy and then Melissa was born in nineteen seventy seven.
Around all the time that all these bodies.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Are messing busy, He's killing people, he's making baby, having babies.
Norma's pregnant, pushing dead people over reilings. I mean, she's
just the all American girl, you know.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
Yeah, So as you if you listen up to this point,
you would know that Carl was taken into custody for
the nineteen seventy seven murder of Lyddy Matthew Evans thirty one,
and was soon linked to four other victims. The Flint
Killer Flint River Killer resides at Dodge State, president Chester, Georgia.

(49:58):
Norma said her husband was devastated to find out their
daughter had possibly been murdered, but was also relieved to
know who may now be responsible.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
How the fuck do you think everybody else feels for
those twenty five years there Liddy being murdered, all these well, Fred,
nobody cared about Fred. Now Lyddy was the real victim.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
Fred had to die.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yes, the only person who was actually innocent in all
those people that he killed. I don't know anything about
Richard the first one. But the only person innocent was
Liddy because Joe helped Joe killed Betty Joe. Oh, I
forgot about Betty Joe. Okay, yeah, Betty Joe too.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
I ain't forget about Betty.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
Sorry, I forgotten Betty. I was only thinking of like
Joe and Fred, and Fred was terrible. But yeah, Betty
Joe is innocent and Lyddy. But I really feel bad
for Liddy because she had four children, four small children
and everything like that.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
Evidently, there's a podcast out there that you can listen
to that has the children of Lyddy on the podcast
about the murder of Melissa. So the children.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
They were killed by the children mother who was killed
by Carl are doing a podcast about his daughter who
was murdered by her husband.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Yes, so this is this is stuff I found out
while googling, doing a search on this stuff.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yes, I couldn't figure out why they kept mentioning this
Melissa Wolf Wolf and Burger. Yeah, they kept mentioning it.
I'm like, how is this connected? I understand? It was
almost like whenever I find out that Carla friest tole
that fire hydrance do I know?

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Right?

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Well, just comes full.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
Circle, Okay, getting back to our y'all need Jesus. He
meaning Carl Patten, was deliriously happy as soon as he
found out Chris had been arrested Norma. According to Norma Patten,
he was jumping up in joy. He called me to
tell me he knew his man.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Boobs were just flopping all around, just a bounce and
just like knocked him out. They were so excited.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Norma said that she had suspicions from day one about
Wolfenbarger's involvement in her daughter's death. Patton acknowledged her daughter's
death that showed us what we put other families through,
and nobody deserves that. Those families didn't deserve it, and
we don't deserve it. Either.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
I saw Norma on that porch when they interviewed her
after she was like she got a year's probation or something.
That bitch did not give two changes. She did happy
she's still married to Carl.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Yeah, yeah, I got a husband in president, you know whatever.
She told Banfield that I guess which is the new
stuff that her husband was changed long before the death
is death of his daughter. He changed long before he
got locked up for those murders. He changed almost immediately
as soon as it was done in the seventies. I'm
sure Norma said he's changed even more since he's been

(52:59):
locked up. And to deal with the situation with Melissa
and her death, not being able to go to the
cemetery and not being able to put flowers on the
cemetery for his daughter tears him up.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
According to Norma, nobody cares Carl about your I mean,
I feel sorry about the daughter. I mean she yeah,
she had this shitty dad and then she has this
shitty husband, and probably her having this shitty parent, actually
not just dad parents, probably those types of behaviors that
she learned led her to latch onto somebody who could

(53:33):
do this to her.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
You know, yes, an abuse of controlling freak.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yes, all right, so that's our y'all need Jesus, that's
our case. It's just crazy out there, folks. Just be vigilant.
It's crazy out there. So there might be a serial
killer down in Austin. We don't know, we don't we do.
We do know, it's definitely happening, and we're going to
break this thing.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Wide over, cracking like an egg.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
Yes, all the extra time we have, we're gonna investigate.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
We're gonna ignore our children for the next six months
and solve this.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Well, we are watching I'll be Gone in the Dark,
and that's pretty much what she did that show, I'll
be Gone in the Dark with Michelle McNamara with the
Golden State Killer.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Oh yes, you're watching that there too. I'm popping in
and out. So I don't even know the name of it.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
Okay, Well it's called I'll Be Gone in the Dark.
It's a good book. And this is the first. I
thought i'd seen the documentary before, but I guess I haven't.
So anyways, all right, well I must have watched some
other special on it, because I know I watched a special.
All right, Well, that is our case for the week, STU,
Do you have anything else to add?

Speaker 2 (54:41):
Would you like me anything?

Speaker 1 (54:42):
No? Patreon, dot com, slash Bless this Mess podcast. We
appreciate all the support. We've gotten a few new Patreons
this week, so really appreciate you. Buy us a coffee.
Of course I won't beg for it again, because that's
is beneath me.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Evidently it's not.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
And then rate reviews, subscribe five stars only criticizing the comments,
and then Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for documentary recommendations. Also
post like books I pick up like I was like
depressed the other day, like and I needed to go
to the bookstores to that was no, that was yesterday, Yes, yeah,

(55:19):
all right, so I guess we will see you next time.
Buy everyone say bye to by do tell't you.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
Know it's bad to be superstihous. Mynapping elsin is working.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
It's learning.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Say this wordy, I can