Territorialism in Humans

Reading The Territorial Imperative by Robert Ardrey

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Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Brainbow.Today on the show, we're going to
be talking about territorialism in humans.Now, human evolution is one of probably
the biggest topic on this podcast.This book that I'm reading was recommended by

(00:29):
Loretti Ratziana Bruning, and she's thewell, she has a PhD in business
management, but she has a reallygood understanding, like her talent is understanding
human nature. So she deals alot with the interpersonal relations in the office

(00:52):
in workplace, and then she cameto these discoveries about psychology just through watching
people. And also she was along time docent volunteer at I think it
was some zooents in California. Soyeah, she watches the primates. You
know that she's she works or she'sa volunteer there, and the docents are

(01:17):
the people that you know, givethose tours. So she has quite a
bit, quite a bit experience withprimate behavior, particularly human beings. When
you look at humans from animal person, when you look at them as animals,
as us as animals, me too. We are we're apes. We're

(01:40):
part of the great ape family.But according to the official narrative, human
beings are separate from the animals.And we're not, you know, considered
apes, we're considered human beings,which I think, right there sets up
a false paradigm because if if ifwe come with this perspective of like we're

(02:01):
up here, there, down there, and then we project all of these
I guess projection, anthropomorphicism, it'slike such a huge it's it's like innate
in us. It's really hard notto do that. Sometimes it's called narcissism,

(02:21):
like when a person projects what theythink the other person is thinking.
And and when they when they projectlike I'm being I know, I'm being
vague because this is such a generaltopic, I I should probably just delve
into this, okay. I II emailed Loretta about a month ago,

(02:46):
and I because because on one ofher podcasts she was talking about how and
how in academia especially, but prettymuch most people think that animal are like
these benevolent creatures and we need tosave them, and they're you know,
these sweet little bambies, and it'sall like people are born good and it's

(03:09):
only civilization that corrupts humans. Andshe's like, no, all animals are
inherently selfish and territorial. And thisis what her belief system is coming from
from where she sees things, fromher observation and experience and that sort of
thing. So she has this InnerMammal Institute, and it's really cool.

(03:34):
If you go online you look upMemmal Institute. She provides training courses not
just for people that are in managementor in business, but just for every
day people. Now, I wasdiagnosed with major depressive disorder a while back.
Since I was a kid. Imean, she's you know. I

(03:55):
I my first attempted SUICID. Iwas eleven years old. I was hospitalized
for it, and so it's aserious thing for me. Now. I
tried everything. I tried everything,you know, and then it wasn't until
I was about forty No, no, no, I think I was probably
about thirty eight, no, no, something, maybe I was forty.

(04:17):
I was somewhere around forty. Icame across her book, jeez, and
I can't remember when I first readher book. It wasn't that long ago.
Actually it was earlier than it doesn'tmatter. But anyways, I was
in the library and I was reallydepressed, and I had just come out
of the hospital a couple of daysbefore. Because I didn't know what to

(04:40):
do, I want up in theemergency room because I was I was seriously
thinking about it, and I waslike, I can't, I can't,
I can't do this with my kids. I can't leave. And I just
wanted like something like medication or somethingjust to get me through it. In
the past, I had taken likepainkillers, and I had taken any of
your presents, and in it helped, but then after a while it just,

(05:04):
I mean, it doesn't it doesn'tsolve your problems. It just makes
it so that you don't go offthe deep end. And so I needed
something I need, like a sedativeor something like that. I wound up
in the emergency room and the Iwas talking to the doctor there, and
she was really nice and understanding.She told me, you know, because
of my situation, it would causeanybody depression, basically, she said.

(05:27):
And she's like, I don't wantto give you medicine because I don't want
to give you you know, likeI don't want to give you any pills
because they could be addictive. Andit sounds like you have a really good
perspective on life. And the ladythat was with her was a social worker.
She's like, I've been through domesticviolence, like I know what it's
like and they and they basically werejust like, you know, this is

(05:51):
going to pass, and if itdoesn't, then go see your regular doctor.
But they didn't want to prescribe anything. So I a couple of days
later, I was like at thelibrary because one of the things that has
comforted me throughout my life is reading. When I read it, it's like

(06:12):
having a friend and then people understandthings that you've been through and it makes
you feel like you're not alone.And I just love like authors are like
my imaginary friends in a way.So I was at the library, you
know, just looking for books,and then I happened to come across Loretta
Rata's book Habits of a Happy Brain, and it seems like pop psychology,

(06:35):
right, It's like how to behappy? That's what I thought from the
cover. And I just kind ofwas at the point where I was willing
to try anything, and something intuitivelyjust spoke to me, like just look
at it, because it's kind oflike to me, it sounded like,
you know, like those books ChickenSoup for the Soul or maybe something like

(07:00):
something for idiots, you know,like the how to Guide for idiots,
so because it was the habits ofa happy brain. And I've already been
through so much already, and I'mlike, oh, just be happy.
You know how many times have youheard that before? Just think positivity.
You know they have positivity in yourlife. Look at the brains. It's
just like, uh, put asmile on your face and eventually we'll be

(07:24):
happy. I've heard it all before, and I but anyways, I picked
up her book anyways, and thenI started reading about evolution and I'd never
heard of like brain chemicals before that. I mean, I've heard of them,
but I didn't know exactly what theydid. So she explained in a
very easy to understand way what thebrain chemicals do and hormones and the interactions

(07:50):
between humans and how we produce thesechemicals naturally, and how when you're in
situations where let's say, people arejudging you or social rejection or things like
that, then it causes it causesa spike in in chemicals that don't make

(08:18):
you feel so good or you don'tyou don't if you have like if you're
low on the total poll in thesocial hierarchy, then you're not going to
produce a lot of serotonin to beginwith. So you know, her philosophy
is that if you can see peopleas animals and realize that when you have

(08:39):
when you have people that reject you, or let's say, let's say that
somebody's hurt your feelings, instead oflike the traditional psychology is like, well,
this is all in your head andyou need to it's not what happens

(09:00):
to you, it's how you reactto it. And oh that's not a
lot of the advice that I've hadthroughout my life is oh, that's not
real, Like you're just looking atit negative in a negative light. But
you know, she says, well, no, people all want to be
better than each other, and soyeah, they're gonna want to make you
feel bad. They're gonna want tobe better than you. And and because

(09:22):
I've been programmed at an early ageof like, oh that's not true,
stop making that up in your head, instead of having that like upgrade where
it's like, well, yeah,you know, not everybody wants the best
for you. Not if there arepeople that most people they want to be
better than you and they'll take fromyou. If they tell you that they
love you, doesn't necessarily mean it'strue. If they say that they want

(09:43):
what's best for you, they maywant to use you. Well, if
you're armed with that knowledge and yougo through life like being wary of salesmen
and boyfriends and employers and you know, Google ruse and religious you know,
authorities, if you go through lifequestioning it and being suspicious, then it

(10:11):
could it could It could help you. But it also if you know,
if other people don't like that aboutyou, they could say that you're paranoid
and it's all in your head,and then you have to deal with like
is that true? Is it nottrue? And you go back and forth,
and you can't trust your intuition becauseit's always easier to believe that everybody
cares about you and they want it'sbest for you and think the best about

(10:33):
everyone and not everyone's out to getyou. But when you sense it,
so like I'm intuitive, and sowhen I sense that and then I immediately
shut it down, then I havethis belief in myself that like, I
can't trust myself and I'm stupid andI'm paranoid and there's something wrong with me

(10:54):
because I you know, and thatcreates a lot of inner like I'm at
war myself with that, and so, and I also have a history with
boyfriends that just wanted to control meand possess me and disempower me. And
then of course they would they wouldsay that that's all lies too, But

(11:16):
it's it's not just me that hisexperienced as fairly common with with it.
It's not like outright domestic violence,but it's just when when men see women
as like sex objects or just objectsor some if they if they already come
in like well I am superior,and they don't let you talk, and

(11:39):
they don't really let you they don'treally value anything you have to say,
and maybe they think that you're talkingjust because you want to be heard or
you want to say something important.I mean, there's men that actually think
that they think that women have nothingof value unless they're unless they're fuckable or
something like that. So I that'sthat that caused a lot of depression in

(12:03):
my life. So when I readher book and she acknowledged this aspect in
people, that yeah, people,people are selfish, it hit me like,
oh, we're animals and yeah,and so it validated a lot of
these things that I already believed,that I already felt, but that I
thought that I was the only onethat was seeing the world this way,

(12:26):
and and so it right then,right then at the library, I had
this like paradigm shift and I sawI start seeing everything differently. And I
have not had depression since then.There have been times when I've you know,

(12:50):
had you know, maybe days werefeeling depressed, but it was it's
never been like that since I have, you know, after after depression and
like that, there is a PTSDthat comes along with it. And but
when the depression sets in afterwards,because it's like your your brain is already
kind of like it has those groovesin it where you can get like negative

(13:16):
real fast and spiral into that samestate of emotion of feeling like completely worthless
and hopeless and stuff. And soyeah, I have had days like that,
but it's it's never been like likeit was before. And so I
credit Loretto Gratziana Bruning with helping memore than anybody with her philosophy. So

(13:41):
yeah, I highly recommend you know, checking out Intermammal Institute. There's a
training course in it and and that'spretty cool, so you can you can
teach others and spread the spread theword. Now in academia. They shunned

(14:01):
her, probably because with her philosophyit could eliminate the the demand for pharmaceuticals.
If people start using philosophy as atool to manage their emotions, then

(14:24):
they're not gonna, like, they'renot going to just reach for a pill
to do it or a drug tochange their emotions. And I think that
that could be a threat to theyou know, trillion dollar industry of pharmaceuticals.
So of course they own academia andthey could blackball whoever they want to.

(14:46):
And so she's her work has beenjust in the shadows, similar to
Robert Ardreie. I mean, Inever even heard of him until she told
me. So, Okay, soI emailed her and I and I told
her, I said, you know, Loretta, I think that you might
you know, I really respect youand stuff, but I think I think

(15:07):
that you're missing something when you saythat that we're wrong about thinking that about
how civilization makes people evil and thateveryone's you know, like the idea that
people are born good, but thatbut that maybe society corrupts people or something

(15:33):
like that, and seeing animals aswell, animals are good and animals aren't
like this, and and she's like, no, animals are very vicious and
selfish and territorial, and I justdidn't because I love animals and I've always
been you know, you see thestories and you want to believe it,
like, oh, it's you know, nature is so beautiful and we're the

(15:56):
heroes that are going to save nature. Well, okay, so what was
happening. The reason why I emailedthere is I said, I've been watching
these cats. I have these Ihave a cat station, and there's several
cats that show up, including andthen there's raccoons that show up, and
they all seem to be getting alongand it's not until there's a lack of

(16:18):
resources that they start getting aggressive witheach other. So, because in this
situation, they all seem like they'rewell fed and they just come to the
feeding station because it's you know,it's like a supplemental novelty thing. They're
not fighting. I didn't see iton the trail camera. My cat had
been following around this other cat,And I said, I think that they're

(16:41):
not innately territorial and aggressive. Ithink that there that they only do it
when there's a lack of resources.And then I said, also a perceived
lack of resources. Let's say,like you know, people feel like they
don't have enough and they need more. That would make them want to be
more aggressive fight with each other too. She's like, no, there's more

(17:03):
too than that. There. Youknow, we're we're all basically very greedy
and aggressive by nature, and it'sthey they want. Nobody wants to admit
this because it's like saying we're animalsand we are evil and and nobody likes
that. It doesn't, you know, make you feel good. It doesn't

(17:25):
make you feel based on this wholesuperiority hierarchy and complex that we're all it's
probably instinctive to us. Then ifwe're not superior to the animals, and
that's like huge blow to our ego. And so yeah, it turns everything
upside down, just the way herparadigm about the interpersonal relations and interactions with

(17:49):
others. Affects are neurochemicals, andit's not just like, oh, you're
depressed because you have a brain imbalanceor because you see things negatively, you
know. So so then okay,that was my stance on it. And
then and then I start watching thema little longer. Well, okay,

(18:11):
there is some truth to aggression withanimals that are in survival mode, they
are much more When an animals insurvival mode, it gets much more aggressive.
The more an animal has to fightfor territory, the more aggressive they're

(18:32):
going to be. And so naturallywhen it's in survival mode, it has
that drive to claim territory and itwill fight others. It's interesting because I've
noticed this with dogs too, likewild dogs and wild cats, that they
have just like this sense of Idon't want to say it's justice, but

(18:59):
they know that if that if thatterritory belongs to that animal, most likely
they're not going to bother with itunless it's really desperate. But I've seen
dogs like I've seen wild dogs backdown to an old feeble dog that had
no teeth because this dog lived,dang live in the house. The people

(19:22):
in the house just fed it.But this dog had grown up around this
one block. And these big pack, this pack of wild dogs, they
wouldn't even go over there. Ifif Buttercup like barked at them, like
you know, yeah, they wouldjust move on. When these socks could
easily take down Buttercup, you know, the old dog with no teeth,

(19:44):
But they didn't. And I've noticedthat too with cats, that when a
cat lives in it, it's almostlike it has seniority, and so they
have this respect like, Okay,you're the boss because you own this and
I respect it, and they havethis kind of and I don't, okay.
In this book, it talks alittle bit about it, about this

(20:06):
respect that comes along with territorialism,and different animals have different gestures and postures
and how they show respect to anotheranimal to avoid conflict. And a lot
of times animals in nature will justavoid conflict because who wants to risk getting

(20:26):
injured? You know, you getif you get a scratch on you in
the wild, it could mean deathfrom infections and stuff, so it's just
not worth it. So there isthere is a bit of truth to the
degree of aggression correlates with how desperatethey are and survival won't and the lack
of resources. Right, But shewas right in the aspect of I was

(20:52):
thinking, well, you know,they all get along, and it's not
true because later on I found outthat that for one one of the and
I saw this with my eyes,one of the cats that lived in a
house who had seniorities, so tospeak. It was her territory. She
was very aggressive with my cat,and probably the main factor with drove him

(21:15):
away because she kept coming to uslike she owned us too, And I
was so stupid. I mean,I shouldn't say that, but I was
so not ignorant at the time.I was like, I thought, well,
if she sees me being nice toher or this cat, then he'll
know that I'm nice and not tobe afraid of me, because I thought

(21:36):
he was afraid of me because Iwas like a predator or something. And
so I didn't know what to dowith this cat. I didn't know if
she lived at the time, soI was like allowing her to be around
me instead I should have pushed heraway, but I was like, oh
that you know, we're all likegetting along, we're all nice, it's
all be nice to each other.Well, look how nice I am with
this cat. Well, my catwas probably looking at like she owns her

(22:00):
now, so this is her territoryand I can't go by her. And
I didn't understand that at the time. It makes me really excited to think
about it from his perspective. ButI also noticed that there was this other
cat who was astray, and astray wound up coming every day after my

(22:26):
cat had left. Then I noticedthat there was another cat who stopped going
to the feeding station. It's justthey disappeared, and it would just be
this one straight, big stray cat, I call him Big Bear. And
then of course there's Bluebell, wholived in one of the houses, who
had a seniority, so she wouldshow up with the feeding station. Big

(22:47):
Bear. What But the other catsdisappeared. I didn't know why at the
time, but now, but lateron I understood that how cats will drive
each other away, like the youknow, the whoever fights the most,
I'm away, and then they owneda territory. But I didn't. I
didn't understand. I was like,why is my cat coming back? Well,
now I do, so then therewas this other cat who changed feeding

(23:11):
station, went somewhere else looking formy cat. Still, then this other
cat shows up, and I hadlike six cats on the trail camera for
a few days, and then itwas just this other cat. She drove
Big Or. I thought it wasa female at the time, but it
turns out it was a noon ormale. He drove Big Bear away,

(23:32):
and so then there was just blueBell and well, I was calling him
Odessa, but now he finally he'sa boy, so I called him Odyss's
and she's just Otis now, soI call him Otis. And he was
there every day like Big Bear usedto be. So I'm like, oh,
so talked to a cat expert andhe told me, he's like,

(23:55):
yeah, your cat probably got drivenaway by another territorial cat. And like
I had heard it before, butI didn't really understand it because like when
I'm thinking of cats, I'm like, oh, there's plenty of food,
and they all can they all comein different times. But then I started
seeing her on him on camera,and I would see his tail like wagging

(24:17):
and he, you know, lookingbecause you only see so much on the
camera. You don't hear them,you don't see them fighting or chasing each
other away from the camera. ButI would see enough of him on the
camera to see like he's posturing,like this is my territory, nobody else
can come here. He would onlylet the Bluebell come because she had,
you know, she had more rightsto the neighborhood than he did. He's

(24:41):
very aggressive, very big too.I didn't realize it because I only saw
my trail camera like at first,but then he started like popping out,
did what Obi did, follow mearound, but then was too skittish.
Finally I got him in a trapbecause I knew he's astray and because he
had like claw marks on him andstuff, and he was eating like it's
like you're starving, very skinny too, and so he escaped the trap first

(25:06):
time. And then after about threeweeks, I finally, you know,
I got a new trap, anice new trap, and it had my
other cats, Gracie's the female,or scent on it and stuff. He
went in it. After I gotthis new trap. He went in this
new trap after one hour, andso I trapped him and my son was
with me at the time, andyou know, we went to you know,

(25:30):
I didn't think I because the catwould not go in the trap at
all. So I didn't have anyhopes or anything. And sure enough,
I there's the cat and it was. It was ferocious. It was like
howling, hissing, snarling, bangingback and forth. I was like,
oh my god, this cat's gonnahave a heart attack and it's banging all
over. It looked like a wildcat and like I in the zoo,

(25:52):
you know, I got that senselike this cat is freaking. It is
like a lion. So I didn'tknow what to do. I was I
kind of we were standing around andI threw a blanket on it, and
I didn't want him to scratch methrough the through the cage. So finally
I built up some nerve and Ithrew a blanket on him, and he's

(26:17):
like moving every time I pick itup, he's like, you know,
shakes and rattles of cage. Gothim in the car and and then got
him home, and I was scaredof him, so I you know,
I had I had him in thisone room. My daughter and I we
had already discussed that he's gonna bein her room, so you know,
I had that room ready and stuff, and and then let him listen.

(26:40):
The first day, I was likethrowing food and shut the door, like
I was afraid he's gonna writ myhand off. And then my daughter I
gave some Valerian okay, and thenhe I guess he like meld off.
And my daughter goes in there rightaway, she's like, you're afraid of
that cat. He jumped right onmy lap and he wanted to be pet
and so I don't know. Imean, she it's like, you know,

(27:03):
I loosened up the lid for her, right and she just goes in
there. He warmed up to herreal fast, but so it was that
was about after that was a littleafter twenty four hours. And then he
did warm up to me too,right after that. But he's still I've
had him for a couple of weeks. Now he backslides a lot. He'll

(27:26):
get super affectionate, and he's gotsuch an amazing intelligence. It's like man.
Cats that have been through that arejust different dogs who have been on
the while too. They just havethis like wild intelligence about him. And
you know, I'm like, I'vebeen posting stuff looking at everyone who's got
a lost cat, and then Ifound this lady who had been missing her

(27:52):
cat for two and a half years, and we're both pretty sure it's him.
So she's in a position where,I mean, I don't want to
say too much. She writes alot about domestic violence. I believe she
has a PhD in psychology, andshe I should read some of her papers

(28:22):
actually to you guys later. Butshe says she's having health problems. She
can't take him back. Her otherhalf or I don't know if it's her
husband or boyfriend, does not believethat it does not. I don't think
he wants them, you know.So she said, I'm not in a
position to take him, so she'sbeen avoiding me a lot. She won't

(28:52):
do a video call. The lastI talked to her was a couple of
days ago. I was supposed totake I was supposed to take Otis to
the vet, but I can't gethim in a trap, and I'm afraid
that if I force him, ifI push him too much. I just
I could see that we are inthis delicate dance of trust, and I

(29:12):
have to let him trust me becauseI really want him to come out fully,
you know, enough to be tamewhere he could be around other animals
and stuff, And because I won'tlet him around my other cat or dogs,
because he's just he hisses and growlsat him and stuff. So eventually

(29:33):
I'm gonna take one of the band get him, you know, tested
for stuff and seeing the microtrip.But I mean, I'm looking at all
the markings in the personality, theway she described him and stuff, like
there's just idiosyncrasies about him that he'sgot like a his right eye has a
was damaged, and there's this,you know, Otis has the same thing

(29:56):
he's got like this thing on hisleft flank that's a unique mark. Everything
is striking, you know, hismarkings are very striking. And so I'm
pretty sure it's him. But theweird thing about it is is, Okay,
this cat had gone missing from herhouse when she lived in Vancouver,

(30:23):
Washington, when she lived here,he had gone missing, and they found
him one hundred and fifty miles awaybecause he apparently hitched a ride in the
hood of a car. So whoeverfound him opened up the hood of their
car and there's a cat in there. They went to go change a battery

(30:45):
because the car died, and theyopened up the car hood and there's there's
a cat. They call him Ari. And yeah, so if you're interested,
you could you could look up helpBring Ari Home. And it's on
Facebook and he has a whole page. And I'm like looking at all these

(31:07):
videos and I'm like, Holy,this is too weird. I mean,
it's too weird. I can't evenbelieve it. So if it, you
know, I'm pretty sure it's him. I have a lot of pictures of
otis And I don't want to botherthis woman though, because you know,
I don't know what she's going throughexactly, but she seems to be kind

(31:30):
of torn apart by it, andshe's got issues with her boyfriend husband.
I don't know, so I don'teven know. It may not even be
him, so I don't want to, you know, I just want to
say anything about it. But youknow, if it is him, he's
been it means he's been out therefor two and a half years now.
This ca has definitely been living inthe wild for who knows how long.

(31:53):
I mean, you feel you knowhe's back. He's got like all these
scabs and stuff, claw marks,he's acting the way he acts, So
yeah, I'm interested to find outfor sure, but I don't even think
she wants to know, because shetold me that she can't take him back,

(32:13):
and it's probably just easier to believethat it's not her cat, because
you know, it's like, howdid your cat get there? I'm sure
he didn't walk because she was inthe process of moving and she had to
leave him behind, and whoever hewas staying with escaped there and they never

(32:36):
saw him again. And she's youknow she put out this whole thing looking
for him. So anyways, Ihave a cat and and I text,
I mean, I messed emailed Blearetaback and I told her, I said,
I've learned a lot about cat behaviorand you're right. And I was

(33:01):
one. I was like, she'smen. She told me about this book,
Robert Ardrey, The Territorial Imperative.It's a personal investigation into the animal
origins of property and nations. Okay, so I'm just gonna read the excerpts
that I found here in just theprologue, in the first chapter, and

(33:25):
I may move on and do more, but I think that, you know,
I'm just for now, I'm justgoing to read the pieces of the
first chapter and talk about it.I'm kind of like, I don't understand

(33:45):
why I'd never heard of this authorbefore, Robert Ardrey, like I should.
And Conrad Lorenz too. I cameacross his book at at a thrift
store. I got it and Ijust bought it because I'm like, oh,
it's the book. Jacket doesn't haveanything on it. It just says

(34:07):
King Solomon's reading Lorenz. Now,Okay, so I have a bachelor's degree.
I went to a Catholic high school, graduated from like a Lutheran you
know school. I read a lot. Okay, so I'm I was born
in nineteen seventy five. This bookwas written in the thirties by Conrad Lorenz.

(34:30):
The other book was written in thesixties. I don't know why I've
never come across either one of theseauthors, you know, just by coincidence.
But you know, I, youknow how like if you're not familiar
with something, it kind of goesover your head. I'm sure that I'm
sure that I came across it atsome point, but like this should be

(34:51):
like widely discussed. Instead, it'ssome obscure, some obscured philosophy. Now.
So with Robert Arderie, he hisbook on territorialism is the only one

(35:15):
that I even know of. Hetalks about how you're not at that time,
you weren't even supposed to say humanshad instincts, and this is true
even in my current day. Ithought that I was pretty radical for saying
humans have been We're starting to hearthis more, but I always said humans

(35:36):
have instincts because I, you know, I thought that if we could just
change the taxonomy and the classification ofhuman beings and make us apes. It
would like, this is what Ifelt like my whole life's mission was supposed
to be. It seems really stupid, right, It's like, why,
what's the big deal about? Whyshould humans be apes? Why do you

(35:57):
feel like that's your mission in life? It's always been my mission in life,
is like, that's the one thingI have to set out to prove
that humans are apes so that whenchildren are in school and they're learning about
animals, like humans are apes andit's not like humans are over here and
all the apes are. It's like, no, there's chimpanzees, grills or
rangutans humans, and then there's monkeysand then there's you know, lem or

(36:19):
whatever different types of animals. Butyeah, we should be in that category.
And the reason why is because itchanges our whole scientific paradigm into a
correct perspective. So I did alittle bit of research. I can't find

(36:43):
anything in Loretta couldn't find any She'slike, the only book I know.
Everything I know about territorialism is inthis book. So I was like,
okay, well I got to readit and then we may do a podcast
on inner mammal to discuss it.But I'm gonna, you know, get
I told her I wanted to getthrough the whole book first. And then

(37:04):
with Conrad Lorenz, I ran acrosshis book King Solomon's Ring a few years
ago, probably about four years agoor so. I can't find anything else,
you know, it was just somethingas a fifth start, and then
first chapter this guy, this authorkeep saying Arthur, this author brings him

(37:31):
up, and I'm like, Inever even heard anybody else mentioned Conrad Lorenz,
who in the nineteen thirties. He'sa naturalist, you know, he's
like basically a sensitive person who observesnature. That's really what a scientist is,
isn't it. It's somebody who justis a very good observer, who

(37:54):
has a clear perspective and perception andwithout being biased, and you know,
has their preconceived notions and stuff,and who can form connections and say,
oh, you know, I seethis and this and make some kind of

(38:14):
comparison and have a theory like ohmaybe they do this because of this and
so forth, and then they tested. And that's really what science, natural
science is supposed to be about.Right, So you know what my eyesight

(38:34):
is, I got it. I'mlooking around for my glasses right now,
I can't find them, but soI'm gonna take my contacts out and so
then I can read these read whatI have written here. So okay,
Conrad of Lorenz is he writes sortof like a poet, and I guess

(38:58):
this is also the author who wrotethis other book. Very poetic makes science
interesting, and yeah, yeah,I don't really see too many modern scientists
writing in this kind of fashion wherethey use you know, like asive there's

(39:27):
a sensitivity to it and intuitiveness andsensitivity. Okay, so my contacts are
out, so now I can seeclearly when I read. I am totally
blind, like I can't see far, but yeah, I need to be
able to see what I'm reading.Right, So it begins with a preliminary

(39:50):
meditation. He says that in nineteenfifty five, that's when he had his
awakening. This book was first publishedInten sixty six. In nineteen fifty five.
He wound up going to this basementin Johannesburg's medical school, and he

(40:13):
was learning about the origin of manand he. In the nineteen thirties,
he lectured in anthropology for a seasonor two at the Chicago at the Chicago
World's Fair. So he has thisanthro ethropology passion that was dormant because then

(40:35):
he got into script writing and playwriting, so that took so his science took
a backseat. But it was knowingabout human behavior helped them. I mean,
if you're a dramatist and you're writingplays and movies, it's you got
to know about the subtle nuances ofhuman behavior, especially like with nonverbal communications,

(41:01):
so you can give directives of likethis is how you're gonna act and
say this, and you know,because there's this and drama. Drama is
a language, and it's it's it'smostly what's not said that has the biggest
impact in in our social in oursocializing. So like you know, when

(41:25):
you watch a movie or a soapoperas, they always they always exaggerate this
with their expressions and they don't sayeverything. So it's the things that that
are unsaid, the unspoken stuff wherethere's this drama taking place, and that's

(41:47):
really the fun stuff about movies andplays and soap operas and and and in
regular interactions with people, the unspokenstuff is never even considered because I mean
we may consider it personally, buthow do you convey that to another person?
How do you convey that to yourpsychologist and your or the judge and

(42:10):
say, well, he said hewas being aggressive aggressive, but he didn't
actually say that he took my cat. He just said that he knows where
my cat is and that he's beingaggressive aggressive, but that he hopes that
my cat comes back. So well, he said he's being he wants your

(42:31):
cat to come back, and youcan't prove that he took your It's just
like, no, there's like thesesubtleties where people like insinuate, but you
you know, we're taught that wecan't. If we can't prove it,
then it's not real. You haveto actually prove you have to basically have
it on video. It makes mewonder what's going to happen when we start

(42:52):
coming up with all these AI generatedvideos and pictures, Like we can't even
trust that then because now it's likewe you know, if you're in court,
you have to have it on videofor them to prove it. But
yeah, so when they start generatingAI stuff, then how can you prove
that it hasn't been doctored? Butwhen we're watching animals, we take into

(43:17):
consideration, their postures, their nonverbal communication, the drama that they do
when they say leave markings or getinto a fight. We take that as
well. Of course, they're notgoing to come out and say, I
hereby declare war on this person orthis animal over here, and I this

(43:40):
is my territory. No, butwe can make we can infer that that's
what they're doing by their behavior.Okay, he says, normal human beings,
jarred into consciousness of their own ignorance, tend to keep the information to
them so when they learn about he'stalking about, like with human behavior and

(44:06):
anthropology authors being shameless tended Russian toprint. So fathomless was my ignorance,
however, and so oceanic were thedimensions of scientific accomplishment. While my back
has been turned that the rush consumedsix years of my life, and even
then I learned only to float.For it was not just a matter of

(44:27):
astroprolificus and the predatory transition. Therewere alpha fish and pecking orders, gene
pools and displacement activities, exploratory behaviorand ritualized aggression, and all had bearing
on the human condition. Above all, there was territory he's talking about,

(44:50):
how he had this awakening when hewas like, he had this epiphany,
this paradigm shift, and is justbeginning to skim the surface of it.
It's weird when you have a paradigmshift and nobody is there to not validated,

(45:17):
but to share with you that theyknow it. So then you're just
kind of sitting there like alone.You're like, holy cow, like your
whole life, your whole life hasto be reevaluated because everything that you thought
and believe is like, now youhave this, say, upgrade, and
so now you can process the worldthrough different lens and see new information and

(45:42):
change the interpretation because now you're older. We do this all the time,
Like when we're children, we seethe world as a child, and then
we get older we can look backat what happened from a different perspective,
right, And then we keep gettingthese upgrades and upgrades and then these new
lenses and so we can see things. So he's saying, Okay, the
most important thing about what his paradigmshift was showing him was that humans were

(46:10):
territorial. What do you guys thinkabout that? Were you ever taught that
people are territorial? I mean,because what I've been taught was that people
have property and rights to property,and that you should respect their property.
And people get property based on howmuch merit they have and how much money

(46:34):
they make, and it's like it'sunquestionable. It's like, no, I've
been taught boundaries, and I've beentaught if you want to acquire territory,
that you just need to make money, then you could acquire territory, and
then other people, you know,should respect that. But I never never

(46:54):
considered until looking at this book,I never even considered that this was an
instinct that could hopefully be eradicated.It's almost like this is so deeply embedded

(47:16):
in us as an instinct, that'sa question. It It seems like something
only a crazy person would do,because well, let me just continue reading
a little bit. He says,there is a virtue I must presume in

(47:37):
shamelessness, since by placing on paradethe things one does not know, one
discovers that no one else knows either. The publication of African Genesis in nineteen
sixty one dropped a clue as tohow many people and how many lands share
the shock of my discovery about territorialismand humans and could share as well,

(47:59):
the excitements of a six year safariif you're unknown scientific lands, an intellectual
excursion with a generation earlier could haveconcerned only but a few educated now concerned
and educated many. I don't thinkanything anybody would even be interested. I
can't. I mean, I don'tknow anybody that would be interested in,

(48:20):
Oh, let's go explore territorialism inhumans. I think they'd be like,
what are you, what are youtalking about? It's like, it just
it's interesting because at the time itwas groundbreaking to understand that humans have an

(48:43):
instinct. It was it was likeit was taboo. It was going against
It was a radical idea that wasjust beginning to emerge from religious indoctrination,
and it was rebelling against this falseideology that religions have concocted to elevate man

(49:07):
to a divine status over all theanimals. So at the time, it
was pretty cool. It was like, Okay, well people are animals.
Let's okay. Fast forward from nineteensixty six, nineteen sixty one, Fast

(49:30):
forward, fast forward. I meanup until I was a kid, I
was when I was growing up,I was taught animals don't have emotions.
We just project that onto them,and they are only instinctive, they don't
have emotions, and they're the onesthat are territorial. And we have property
because we are these divine people thatwhen we make money, we have a

(49:54):
right to property. It never occurredme to analyze that at as an animal,
like, well, maybe you're justfighting because you know, you have
these survival needs that you want tohave met, and the more territory you

(50:15):
have, the more of a senseof control you have over your environment,
and hence you you know, abilityto survive. And it's it's so it's
like, well, yeah, duh, of course, like they're but but
nobody an that's like, that's philosophy. Philosophy, philosopher. People don't like
philosophers because we think about this stuff. It's like, well, duh,

(50:37):
Like why are you thinking about thisstuff so hard? Yeah, of course
we want to have property. Itmakes us happy. Why do you have
to analyze that? Well, okay, The reason why is because if we
could figure if we can make oursubconscious conscious, if we can make our
instincts conscious, if we could bringthat up from the from the depths and

(51:00):
analyze it, we could overcome it. We could well theoretically, if we
brought this into the spotlight and wesaid, Okay, this is what this
behavior is. It's not like thebest traiting human beings that actually is the
cause of war and fights and aggressionand you know, dispute neighbors, dispute

(51:25):
with neighbors and so forth. EvenI mean, if we considered it like
that, if we eradicated it,we could probably bring peace to the planet,
could definitely stop having, you know, the feeling like a need to

(51:46):
own stuff and have wars with thingsaround us, have wars with things that
are I feel like a threat thatare different. So I yet, I
think it is important. It's notjust like something that we should just blindly
ignore because it's like, well,yeah, that's what it is, like
just accept it. It's like,well, why can't we just continue to

(52:08):
evolve. All we need to dois just make the bring this stuff to
light. Well, I don't thinkthat. I think it's first of all,
I think it's a lot of workto analyze stuff and to philosophize about
it, and and it does itand it's like, well, if everyone's
happy and free and peaceful, it'slike, where's the money in that?
But then you know, it's like, well, maybe you don't need money,

(52:30):
maybe you're just it's like a biggame of fake monopoly, and you
just you know you're winning, Butreally, who cares? You know,
Like, I hope I'm not goingoff into this idealistic imagination land. Okay,
let's continue to just stick to thescript of this book. There is

(52:53):
nothing so moving, not even actsof love or hate, as the discovery
that one is not alone. Wellhere here, isn't that the truth?
I mean, this is why Ilove to read, and this is why
I've always wanted to be a writer, is because I wanted to share that

(53:14):
connection that I found so much solaceand comfort. And when you realize that
you're not alone, it's such amoving experience. He says. Many of
the concerned scientists, as we shallsee, believe it as I do,

(53:37):
that man is a territorial species,this is in the sixties, and that
the behavior so widely observed in animalspecies is equally characteristic of our own.
And yet it is astonishing there existsin all the scientific literature only one book
devoted exclusively to the subject. Thatbook was reord in nineteen twenty, and
it concerned only BirdLife, and itestablished the concept of territory, and I

(54:00):
have dedicated my book to its author. Since then, no attempt has been
made to publish in any language forthe benefit of either the layman, the
scholar, or the scientists himself.A single volume volume exploring a subject what
could be vital to our understanding ofthem. If there is a book about
that is dedicated to territorialism in Man, then I would like to know who

(54:23):
that author is. But like Lorettasaid, this is all she knows.
This is the best book on it. And you know, this is like
in sixty six. In nineteen twenty, the book that he's referring to,

(54:45):
Well, who did he dedicate thebook to? It says to the memory
of Henry Elliott Howard. But I'mgoing to have to look this up later.
In nineteen twenty book on bird lick. Okay, So this book,

(55:06):
the Territorial Imperative says that he saysthat we're entering terra incognita. You know
what that means, uncharted land,and that the crossing of an all but
unknown intellectual continent may have its fascinations, but it also has its casualties.
I guess, I guess you gottabe careful, you know, even in

(55:31):
academia, when you are stepping onothers' financial feet. The first chapter is
called of Men and Mockingbirds. Aterritory is an area of space, whether
of water or air or earth,which an animal or group of animals defends

(55:52):
as an exclusive preserve. The wordis also used to describe the inward compulsion
in animate beings to possess and defendsuch a space. A territorial species of
animals, therefore, is one inwhich all males and sometimes females two bear
an inherent drive to gain and defendan exclusive property. In most but not

(56:15):
all territorial species, defence is directedonly against fellow members of its kind.
The squirrel does not regard a mouseas a trespasser in most but not all
territorial species. Not in chameleons,for example, the female is sexually unresponsive
to an unpropertied male. As ageneral pattern of behavior in territorial species,

(56:38):
the competition between males, which weformerly believed was one for the possession of
females, is in truth for possessionof property. We may also say that
in all territorial species, without exception, possession of a territory lends enhanced energy
to the proprietor. Students of animalbehavior cannot agree as to why this should

(56:59):
be, but the challenger is almostinvariably defeated, the intruder expelled. In
part, there seems some mystery flowof energy and resolve which invests a proprietor
on his home grounds. It's likethe home the home team, they always
have the advantage. What is thisenergy of having that home advantage? This

(57:24):
is one of the drives for territory, is so that you can increase that
energy that I don't know what itis either it's it's something that I want
to meditate on, but yeah,like what is that home advantage? Or
like even in war, the countrythat's defending itself has has the advantage because

(57:52):
well, they know their they knowtheir terrain and their climate and their land
and so forth. But it's alsolike they have they they're they're on the
side of what's right. When you'reon the side of truth and what's right,
there's this energy that is so muchstronger than the ones that are trying

(58:17):
to take and defeat you. Sothat's why they have to team up.
They have to, like the goodguys the bad guys have to team up
to take over the good guys.I think that teaming up is bad sportsmanship.
It's not allowed in Fortnite, shouldn'tbe allowed in war either. I

(58:40):
mean, I don't think that anyyou know, we teaming up is bullying.
If you're at school or at workand there's people teaming up to that's
like that should be frowned upon.It shouldn't be like, well, you
know, we're more powerful, sotherefore we have a right to take take
you over. It's like, Ithink we're getting pretty close to recognizing that

(59:00):
as being an unfavorable trait in humans. But yeah, that's the home advantage.
Like you see with like Buttercup,the old dog with no teeth,
he had the home advantage even thoughthe group of wild dogs gound have taken
them easily, but they gave itto him. He worked for that.

(59:23):
And the dogs show respect in theirnon verbal ways. They show respect that
I acknowledge you, and I acquiesceto you, and I submit not I
mean not submit, but it's likeI respect it, Okay, So then
they're just gonna leave it avoid theconflict. People do that too. This

(59:46):
is why like we bow our heads. We have these these gestures of when
we respect someone that maybe won't holdup in court. But then we also
have ways where we try to intimidatesomeone, which you can't really explain that
unless you're watching film or something,but generally people recognize it. It's just

(01:00:09):
not something that holds any merit whenyou're talking, when you're trying to prove
too that you're being like bullied by, you know, say, like you're
trying to prove it to somebody likeyou can't say, well, he looked
at me like this, and thenhe said this in this way. It's
like, well, you sound likeyou're just being overly sensitive and reading too

(01:00:30):
much into things. But yeah,animals have their communication, noncommunicative ways of
acknowledging respect to others. Man Ishall attempt to demonstrate in this inquiry is
as much a territorial animal as ina mocky bird singing in the clear California
night. We act as we dofor reasons of our evolutionary past, not

(01:00:52):
our cultural present, and our behavioris as much a mark of our species
as is the shape of a humanthigh bone or the configuration of nerves in
the corner of the human brain.If we defend the title of our land
or the sovereignty of our country,we do it for reasons no different,
no less innate than do lower animals. Neither are men and dogs and mockingbirds

(01:01:15):
uncommon creatures in the natural world.Ringtail lemurs and gray crusted grebs, prairie
dogs, robins, tigers, muskrats, metal warblers and Atlantic salmon, fence
lizards, flat lizards, three spines, sticklebacks, nightingales and Norway rats,
herringles and monkeys. All of uswill give anything we are for a place

(01:01:37):
of our own territory, and theevolving world of animals is a force,
perhaps older than sex. By theway, I'm reading these excerpts as I
go, so some of it likeit doesn't really flow as fluidly, but
I don't want to read the wholechapter. You guys could order this book
on Amazon if I recommend it doingthat, But I'm just trying to get

(01:01:58):
through this the best parts of whatI've been reading. And it may come
to us as the strangest of thoughtsthat the bond between a man and the
soil he walks on should be morepowerful than his bond with the woman he
sleeps with Even so, in arough preliminary way, we may test the
supposition with a single question, howmany men have you known of in your

(01:02:20):
lifetime who died for their country?And now how many died for a woman?
Any force which may command us toact in opposition to the will to
survive is a force to be inspectedat such a moment of history as ours,
with the benefit of other than obsoleteinformation that I believe this force to
be a portion of our evolutionary nature, a behavior pattern of such survival value

(01:02:45):
to the emerging human being that itbecame fixed in our genetic endowment, just
as the shape of our feet andeverything else that were made of. Even
as that behavior pattern calls sex evolvedin many organisms as nature's most effective answer
to the problem of reproduction, sothat behavior pattern called territory evolved in many

(01:03:07):
organisms as a kind of defense mechanism, as nature's most effective answer to a
variety of problems of survival. Hesays, a bird does not fly because
it has wings. It has wingsbecause it flies. What do you think
about that? What came first thewings or the will? I wonder about

(01:03:29):
this? In evolution with mutations likehow is it that let's say an animal
went from let's say like a snaketo like a salamander, Right, how
did it grow legs? How didthe squirrel evolve to have a bushy tail.

(01:03:53):
There's doesn't seem to be any needfor that. But you only see
these squirrels with bushy tails in clineit's where the winters are harsher. In
California they got these skinny, scrawnytails like rodents. And then in like
in the Midwest, they have thesevery big, beautiful tales. And so

(01:04:14):
it's like, how do they dothey all just die? The ones,
No, because they could easily survivewith a skinny tail. But it's it's
just nice. It's like a luxury. So so then it's like selective breeding,
you know, it's it's it's interestingto think about evolution how it works.
I think, you know, I'vethought about it a lot, and

(01:04:35):
I can't help but believe, becausethis is just an intuitive feeling that I
have, is that we could changeour DNA through our thoughts and our will.
So we create we create transformation byhaving a desire or having the imagination

(01:05:00):
to see it or to conceptualize it, Like how do you how can you
think of ideals and imaginary things withoutthe brain that we have? How and
so we do we evolve this brainto be able to conceptualize new ways of
doing things, to alter our environmentand so forth? Or or are we

(01:05:25):
this way because we have this brain? Like what came first, chicken or
the egg? I think that whenhe says, do we think because we
have brains? Or do we havebrains because we think? What we're talking
about here is more is like metacognitionand creativity because all animals have brains.

(01:05:47):
But so do we have this thekind of brain that we have this like,
you know, the ability to create? Do we are we creative because
we have creative intelligence? Or dowe do we somehow build our brains from

(01:06:15):
something else? And what is thisforce? It seems as though there's this
this life force, the same lifeforce that gives us the home team advantage,
that gives us that energy when weown something and we have that pride
of ownership, and it's like asort of confidence. It's the same thing
when you're on the side of trutheverything, you're just more powerful. The

(01:06:39):
truth stands on its own, youdon't need to defend it. It's like
the territories like that too. Youdon't have to defend what you already own
and with. When you own something, then you have it. So I

(01:07:00):
don't know this. This is goingin circular patterns right now, but it's
a good thing to meditate. Now. Do does a bird fly because it
has wings? Or does it havewings because it flies? And are we
creative because of our brains? Ordo we have our brains like this because

(01:07:20):
we're creative? Something to think about. Should you have access to any of
the older zoology textbooks, you willfind either little reference to behavior or none.
Discussion is confined to those animal attributeswhich zoologists cause call morphological and physiological,

(01:07:44):
that is, dealing with physical structuresand processes. Yeah, because since
then. I remember Jane Goodall whenshe first came out talking about emotions in
chimpanzees. They they mocked or andthey thought she was not a real scientist.
They didn't take her seriously for manyyears because they just thought she was
projecting an anthropomorphizing. They really didn'tbelieve that animals had emotions. And you

(01:08:12):
didn't see anything about what's called ethology. I have not heard that word in
so long. I haven't seen thatanimal behavior. It's not really a big
field. Okay, let's see.And then he talks about Conrad Lorenz,

(01:08:34):
the Austrian naturalists, the father ofethology, the modern study of animal behavior.
Among the many creatures which have fallenunder his imaginative yet critical eye has
been the night heron. Three differentgenera of night herons all have a behavior
trait in common as dog wags itstail to indicate friendly intentions, so the

(01:08:56):
night herons bob their heads to emphasizethe bob. All three genera have crests
which they raise like flags for theamiable occasion, but the flags differ in
pattern. Does the knight heron bobhis head to display the crust he possesses,
or does he possess the crest becausehe would bob his head anyway.

(01:09:17):
Lorenz reason that since the three crestsdiffer, whereas the gesture is the same,
some ancestors of the family must havefound such a gesture of value in
keeping down disputes, and that thebodily structures had evolved in descendant species to
enhance the value. His reasoning isconfirmed by heron so young that they have
not yet grown crests. They toobow. H So when they bow their

(01:09:44):
head, there's this, you know, this regal type of crust that signifies
their playcating. It's it's just likea natural way to placate a rival.
As any Lorenz devote comes to know, he run into some of his most
charming experiences through accident. Such anaccident revealed the importance of the head bob

(01:10:05):
in the life of the night Heron. One of the objects of his study
was a family nesting in a treenear his house. When the father Heron
would return to the nest, healways bowed to the young inside with what
might seem the most remarkable paternal courtesy, but there was more to it than
manners. One afternoon, when thefather was absent, Lorenz climbed the tree

(01:10:27):
to check up on the young andsee how they were coming along. They
were accustomed to him and raise nofuss, But in the midst of Lorenzo's
examination, the father returned unexpectantly,and, outraged by the intrusion, made
threatening displays at the naturalists. Unhappily, however, the distracted father forgot to
make his bow of friendly intentions andwas promptly attacked by his own young So

(01:10:50):
interesting. So, yeah, there'sa type of posturing. Well, okay,
so people when they go to seea king king, they bow,
they kiss the pope's ring, theman takes the woman's hand and what he
used to kiss her hand. Thesesigns of respect are go way back and

(01:11:12):
you can even observe it in otherprimates to the bowing. They do that
with gorillas. The alpha will begreeted by the others with by bowing,
or sometimes they'll turn around and theirposture with their butt like torque in front
of them a little bit like hey, you can have this and so yeah
and so torking is and showing theirrump very similar gestures of like of submission.

(01:11:55):
To refer to human instincts is todamn oneself as a reactionary of the
most fascist minded sort. Total devotionto learning, on the other hand,
is to label one's self as liberal, progressive, securely democratic. I guess
back then, and I don't know, I mean, I thought that it
would have been like a slight toreligious folks to say that humans had instincts,

(01:12:21):
but I guess it was more oflike a Republican maga type thing where
it was like if you said humanshave. If you said humans have instincts,
then you're not being open minded.He said that back then it was
like the liberal Well, I guessliberals have always dominated academia. I mean,

(01:12:49):
is that true or not? Inthe United States. Total devotion to
learning, on the other hand,is to label one's self as liberal,
progressive, securely democratic. Yeah.I think educated people were always like considered
to be liberals, the intellectuals orliberals, right, Okay. The Study

(01:13:09):
of Instinct, a work so glacialin its objectivity that no scientists, whatever
his emotional allegiances, could ignore,is entirely that some succeeded. Of course,
may be deduced by the fact thatthe book is today out of print
and unavailable in both Britain and America. So this book, the Study of
Instinct. Conrad Lorenz wrote nineteen thirtyseven The Companion in the Bird's World,

(01:13:43):
and in nineteen fifty one The Studyof Instinct talked about emotional intelligence, and
that was I guess canceled. Okay, okay, so I guess that's where

(01:14:28):
I stopped reading. I'm gonna pickthat up a little bit later. King
Solomon's Ring by Conrad Lorenz. Thebook is has like these little drawings on
it. I love how the somewriters, like the naturalists, they were
also into drawing, so they wouldtry to draw well. They would draw

(01:14:48):
pictures of like the plants they wouldobserve, or or because they didn't have
cameras back then, right in thenineteen thirties, Now we do. Now
It's like I think it should.I would love to see natural science be
revived with just ordinary citizens. Nowit's like, well, who's interested in

(01:15:10):
science unless you're actually have a degree. But back then it was like,
yeah, anybody could be a scientist. You just go out there and look,
go out there and watch the squirrelsand look at the plants, and
boom, You're as good as scientistsis anybody. But now it's like all
regulated and like if you're not reallytaken seriously. Although there's Eye Naturalists.
I love Eye Naturalists. It's awebsite and app, you take pictures,

(01:15:34):
you can learn about it, andthey have all these people, you know,
identifying and talking about their own observation. So I think the citizens sciences
is like a great move in theright direction, kind of rad Lorenz said
that in the higher animals, theability and inclination to do damage is unfortunately
indirect proportion to the degree of theirintelligence. For this reason, it's impossible

(01:16:01):
to leave certain animals, particularly monkeys, permanently loose without supervision. I like
this quote from him that the higheranimals the ability and inclination to do damages
in direct proportion to the degree oftheir intelligence. Who's more intelligent than humans?
Well, if that's true, whatother animals are intelligent? Dolphins?

(01:16:26):
Right, birds are intelligent? Well, dolphins, what kind of damage do
they do? I don't know.I don't really look at dolphins too much.
What other animals? I guess Okay, have you ever had a dog
that was really smart? Does itdo more damage than a dog that is
not very smart? I would kindof I like that quote, but I

(01:16:48):
don't know if I really agree withit. I should probably wrap this up
now. Well, thank you forjoining me here on this discussion. I
I think I raised more questions thanI than I didn't provide answers. But

(01:17:11):
yeah, I'm just starting to delveinto this book and I have to sit
down and spend the time and readit, and then I'm gonna do a
part two on this. I hopeyou have a wonderful rest of your day
and please join me next time onpart two and I will see you guys later