December 3, 2025 • 50 mins
Tonight on The Brian Crombie Hour, Brian is joined by Parisa Mahboubi, Associate Director of Research at the C.D. Howe Institute, for an in-depth look at what’s really happening in Canada’s immigration system. Drawing on data and personal experience, Parisa explains why numeric targets have overtaken a focus on skills, how the temporary resident and international student programs have become unbalanced, and why the current system feels unpredictable for newcomers. They also explore the broader impact on housing, infrastructure, and public confidence — and the key reforms Canada needs to build a clearer, fairer, and more sustainable immigration model. A thoughtful, timely, and essential conversation for anyone concerned about Canada’s future.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
Saga nine sixty am or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Bediving Everyone, Welcome to the Brian Crompi Radio Wire. I've
got Parsa Mahobi with us set tonight. She is an
associate director of research at the cd HOW Institute, and
we're going to talk about immigration. She's written a really
interesting column that I read about immigration and the challenges
we've got in our immigration system in Canada today, and
she's made a bunch of recommendations as to what we
should be doing, and so I thought it'd be great
(00:39):
to have her on. Parsha Mahobi is, as I mentioned,
associate director of research. She leads the Human Capital Policy
Research Program and chairs the Immigration Targets Council. Her research
focuses on social policy, with a particular emphasis on immigration, demographics,
generational accounting, as well as education, skills and labor market issues. Parisha,
(01:00):
welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thank you for having me, Brian.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Our pleasure, My pleasure. So tell me, you know, why
do you think why do you say that Canada's immigration
policy has lost its way? We've lost our way.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
That's true because in recent years we have moved away
from a clear medit based approach and we started chasing
numeric targets and also feeling, you know, addressing short term
labor needs and also meeting non economic objectives through our
(01:41):
economic immigration system. And at the same time, we didn't
realize that there must be a balance between temporary immigration
and permanent immigration. And not only we increased and you know,
we saw a significant increase in the number of temporary
immigrant vation and temporary immigrants in Canada, and in terms
(02:04):
of the type of individuals we admitted, that has been
also concerning we have we have to revise the system
to make sure that we are admitting and those that
can contribute to our economy in the long term and
increase gdpeople capital and contribute to our productivity in the
(02:26):
long term.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
So, you know, there's been lots of focus on the numbers,
and I guess what you're arguing is that who we
select is far more important than how many we we admit.
But let's talk about the numbers for a second. You know,
what I had heard is that we were, you know,
admitting two hundred and three hundred thousand people a year
into Canada, but it ballooned to like a million people
for a couple of years post COVID.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Is that correct, that's true. We saw significant increase both
in regards to temporary and permanent immigration. For permanent immigration,
government has always had a target for the number of
people that can admit every year, and post pandemic they
started to increase the target and the targets for permanent
(03:13):
immigrations significantly. Given that our population is aging and the
labor force growth mainly is driven by immigration, so there
was a justification that we need immigrants to support population
growth and labor force growth. But at the same time
we have also relaxed our admission of temporary immigrants non
(03:39):
permanent residents, which include international students and temporary foreign workers,
by relaxing criteria and admitting more of those without thinking, okay,
a large number of immigrants. New arrivals are going to
put pressure on the system and whether we are able
to absorb that significant can increase in our labor market,
(04:02):
housing market and other resources are available to support that
increase in the population. Unfortunately, with weak capital investment that
we have in the labor market and in economy, and
also low productivity, challenges we are facing. We weren't able
(04:24):
to absorb that increase in the number of people, and
also we didn't pay attentional quality. You know, there is
a trade off between quality and quantity. When you always yes,
when you increase the numbers significantly, you have to reduce standards.
And that also created challenges in a competition for entire
(04:44):
level jobs that young individuals are also looking for. So
the problem was significant increase during the short period period
of time and also reducing standards.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Okay, so let's talk about some of these different programs
or or or or immigration ways of coming into Canada
and breaking into its component pieces. If we could temporary
form foreign workers. You know, I have heard from lots
of people that we need these temporary foreign workers because
they're the people that work in jobs that Canadians won't take,
(05:19):
that they are low wage, that they are farm workers,
that they're doing some efforts and that and to do
to do a massive restriction of temporary foreign workers means
that will end up making some of our our farms,
on economic amusement parks, on economic uh, you know, healthcare
centers and economic et cetera. What what do you say
to that?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
So in terms of temporary immigration either as you know,
those internationalist students and temporary foreign workers. I admit that
we need them and they are valuable not only in
terms of the contribution to our labor market in the
short and also in terms of, for example, the contribution
(06:03):
of international students to our economy. They spend intuition, they
you know, they need housing, they spend a lot of money,
and they contribute to our economy. But the problem is
that and also another benefit of these categories is that
they are great potential for our permanent immigration. So we
(06:27):
introduced we do have two step immigration and we focused
we try to basically prioritize the international students who have
Canadian education and temporary foreign workers with Canadian work experience.
We try to focus on to select for permanent immigration
because the evidence shows that there's a value to that
(06:50):
these individuals have gained Canadian experience, they were in Canada,
they have majority, they have better language skills, so they
are great potential of potential candidates for permanent immigration. But
the problem is that when it comes to international students,
for example, again because we wanted to encourage the number
(07:14):
of international students, we admit as many as we could,
and we didn't pay attention to the type of institution
admitting those international students, the type of program we are providing,
even the quality of program, and also allowing international students
to work in Canada. That created actually a pathway for
(07:35):
those individuals that they wanted to work in Canadian labor markets.
So not with the purpose of gaining education in Canada,
but the bigger concerns and the objective for those individuals
was to enter the labor market for temporary foreigm workers. Also,
(07:56):
this is important that we need to address labor market
needs to through temporary immigration when there is absolutely no
way to fill those jobs and because for example, it
is it is it takes time to train someone to
gain specific skills to be able to fill those jobs,
or it is not possible to you know, it's not
(08:18):
possible to attract domestic workers and Canadians by offering higher
wages or making adomation. Maybe for some jobs it's not
possible to you know, it's not possible to automate them.
But if any jobs possible to be filled by increasing wages,
if it is possible to train them, you know, in
(08:40):
the short term, to train existing workforce and encourage them
to take those jobs, or make adomation and make capital
investment to add the labor needs. Employeers should do that first.
Even in sectors that we are not able to attract
the Canadians, we have to think about adomation. When it
comes to agriculture, is possible to reduce labor needs to automation.
(09:03):
This is something that unfortunately, employers have been dependent on
temporary immigration for so long time, and it's been so
easy for them to have access to temporary foreign workers
that they were completely discouraged considering other ways.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So, you know, it's interesting what you're saying in regards
to temporary foreign workers, that Canadian companies could just increase
their wages and attract Canadians to do those jobs and
or invest in more automation and machinery such that your
productivity increases. Just to counter that for a second, I've
been told that without temporary foreign workers, we might as
(09:41):
well close down the Niagara and the Okanagan fruit businesses,
that they're completely reliant on temporary foreign workers, that Canadians
won't take those jobs no matter what you pay, and
that temporary foreign workers are the only people that will
come in and perform those services. And that's one example,
and they go on to numerous other examples in the
(10:01):
agricultural sector that's comparable to the United States, frankly, that
without temporary foreign workers, they think that the industries will
just become an economic and closed down. You don't accept that,
is that correct.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I'm not against then, you know, I'm not against that
temporary foreign worker program is helpful to support businesses, and
I'm not saying that we should you know, actually, I'm
against shutting down the entire the program. It has some
streams that we benefit from. But in regards to some
(10:36):
of those occupations that employers think that it's not possible
to do it through domestic labor. We have to give
employers a path to at least reduce their dependency on
temporary foreign workers, for example. But I make it more
(10:58):
expensive bringing lower skill temporary foreign workers. That gives those
employers incentive to think about, for example, automation. Yes, maybe
even with automation, we still need some temporary forum workers,
but not at the current rate and level that we've
seen recently.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
So, you know, in the United States, we've seen examples
of ice, lots of media reports, videos or whatnot, of
ICE coming in and deporting people. We are, from understanding
scaling back our temporary foreign worker program fairly dramatically right now.
And we've talked about, you know, going down. Are we
(11:41):
going to have deportations? Are we going to have a
Canadian version of ICE? Are we going to have forcible
you know, groups of I don't know police people are
our CMP or whoever it is, immigration personnel going to
farms across southwestern Ontario and the Okanagan arresting temporate foreign
workers and and putting themselves and deporting them. Are we
(12:02):
going to have ICE come to Canada to put in
place these policies to dramatically reduce temporary foreign workers in Canada.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
That may not be the right approach, but there is
no doubt that to protect our integrity of immigration system,
we need better policy and we need to be more
firm about what should be the next step for temporary
foreign workers. For example, the first step is to improve
(12:33):
the system in terms of admissions. And also many of
temporary immigrants in Canada they arrived with the hope of
becoming permanent immigrants. So basically that was a message that
we sent to the ward that's come to Canada as
a temporary foreign workers or international students and you will
become permanent immigrants. So that's a message that we sent
(12:57):
to the message which was wrong. And the problem is that, unfortunately,
in the past, we were able to admit many of
these temporary foreign workers or temporary residence to permanent immigrants
because there was a balance between the total number of
you know, the total population of temporary residents in Canada
compared to the number of people we can admit every year. Unfortunately,
(13:21):
that's that ratio is not in the in the that
has expanded. There is the imbalance between the number of
people can be that can become permanent immigrants in Canada,
and that created challenges for many of those because people so.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's a good program, but it was expanded to two sizeably,
there was too many people that energy.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
It expanded significantly. But at the same time, the quality
and the type of temporary foreign workers or international students
also you know, has changed, so that created significant challenges.
And also we do have, for example, the targets that
the government has in place. It's mainly for international students
(14:07):
and temporary foreign workers, but we have asylum system something that.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Let's wait let's wait on the silent system and permanent residency.
Let's just focus on temporary foreign workers bottom line and
temporary foreign workers. I think your analysis, my assessment is
that you think it's a good program. But it was
expanded and the quality of people that we're allowing in.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
With expanded, and some reforms have been made that when beneficial.
So we need both managing the numbers in terms of
managing the number of arrivals new arrivals to the country.
At the same time, we have to revise the system
that does that. Who think that there is no way
(14:49):
for them to become permanent immigrants to arrive or either
a stay in canda. If the message is kill yet,
if you reform our permanent immigration system and make it transparent,
make it predictable. Unfortunately, right now, our permanent immigration system
true economic immigration, I mean for admitting economic immigrants, it's
(15:13):
not transparent. It's not there is no way even top
talent can predict whether what's the chance of becoming permanent immigrants.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Unfortunately, we're talking about immigration today. We've got an expert
from the City how Institute with us, So we're going
to take a break for some messages and when We're
back in two minutes. We're going to chat some more
with Presha about temporary students. We're going to talk about
we're going to talk about refugees, asylum seekers, We're going
(15:42):
to talk about permanent residents. Stay with us. Everyone back
in two minutes.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Streamers live at SAGA nine sixty am dot C.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Welcome back everyone to the Brank Promby Radio while we're
talking immigration today with the expert, Prisa Maha Movie. She's
an Associate director of Research at the cd HOW Institute.
She leads the Human Capital Policy Research Program and shares
the Immigration Targets Council. She's written recently a really good
column in the paper that really walked through some of
the challenges we have in our immigration system. We've talked
(16:26):
about temporary foreign workers, and now want to switch if
I could, Prisa and talk about foreign students. And I
want to give you two points of view that I've
heard and hear what you got to say. So I've heard,
you know the temporary foreign sorry that that the foreign
students program was just a way of a whole bunch
of private colleges almost getting a whole bunch of people
(16:47):
in that they were fooling that it would be a
fast route to Canadian citizenship. They weren't actually offering them
really good education. They brought them to the country. They
all came from one or two countries in Asia, and
it really took advantage of them because they tried to
position it as a quick way, a fast way to
(17:08):
get a job in Canada, to get Canadian immigrant status,
and they didn't they didn't actually go to school. They
were sort of fictitious educational programs. That's one point of view.
The other point of view was fifty seven percent of
all of the great venture capital companies in Silicon Valley
were started by people on student visas. I was a
(17:30):
student on an H one visa in the United States.
That we've gotten now, particularly because of the restriction the
Trump government has put on foreign students into the United States,
an incredible opportunity to have a brain gain into Canada
with incredibly bright people from around the world. They're going
to come to Canada, go to our universities and spur
(17:51):
some of the economic development that we so desperately want.
And it's the proof is what's happened in Silicon Valley.
And so therefore foreign students are a resource that we want.
Foreign students are just private college ways of getting fast
immigration status. And our real problem in our economy to
(18:12):
this is a brain gain huge opportunity in Canada, which
is true.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Actually both are true because we do have a wide
range of institutions in Canada that we attract international students.
Some that they are Unfortunately, we had some bad players
that they use the system. They played and they gained
(18:40):
the system, and they attract too many international students with
the goal of you know, just focusing on their tuition
revenue and without providing high quality and education to those
international students, promising them that they can become permanent immigrants,
attracting them and they come to Canada with the hope
(19:02):
of you know, gaining Canadian education and also becoming part
of Canadian society and become permanent immigrants and contribute to
our economy. At the same time, we do have institutions
that we we still they are able to attract top
talent and top students from the world. They gained great
(19:24):
they received great quality education here in Canada and some
of those are able to remain in Canada and contribute
to our economy, or we can export education to other countries.
And so there are two stories actually exist, and we've
had it and the recommendations of my pieces that we
(19:47):
need to move away from the first story to the
second one. You know, we allow those institutions, respected institute
institutions that have proven that they can produce use high
quality international students, they can provide high quality programs to
those international students. We need to allow them to continue
(20:10):
attracting those top students from the world and without no resolution,
even under numbers. If they are able to attract your
top students, why not. You know, we shouldn't really restrict them.
But at the same time, we have to eliminate bad players.
That's that's the policy that we need to do.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
How do we how do we do this? You know,
I've heard that the Harvard School of Business and Harvard
Kennedy School of Government, because of the threats from the
Trump government of kicking out people on H one videos
as in the United States, have made an agreement with
the University of Toronto such that they can come and
study at the Monks School to the Roment School. And
(20:55):
you know, these are people that had H one visas
to go to a pretty good university of the United States.
The Trump is now potentially not allowing to stay in
the United States. Harvard and UFT have negotiated an agreement
to help these people. Sounds to me like you're probably
people that would be great, you know, benefits to society,
(21:16):
benefits to our community, benefits for those educational institutions. How
do we ensure that we keep those people or keep
the opportunities for those people to come and as you say,
not encourage the bad actors. How do you do that?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
So, first of all, we need to take advantage of
what's happening around us. For example, what's happening in the
south of the border and the immigration policy in US.
We have to maximize our benefit from those policies shifts
in other countries. This is something other countries also are doing.
(21:51):
We need to do that to benefit from and also
in terms of doing that, this is also a province's responsibilities.
It's not all federal government in terms of nominating or
designating the institutions to be able to admit international students.
This is provinces that are doing that, and they have
(22:11):
to review their list. They have to we have to
use the data and use the data in a better way.
The data about, for example, labor market outcomes of post
you know, international students graduated and inter the labor market.
We shouldn't really allow international students who for those institutions
(22:33):
that they are not able that the government even doesn't
allow them to provide the post graduation work permit. It
means that the quality of education or their students is
not high enough to be able to inter the labor market.
So we have to refine the list of institutions in
(22:55):
we have a list of designated institutions that they can
admit international students. This is on provinces they have to
do that. But at the same time, federal government should
increase its you know, involvement in refining the list of
institutions and to be able. So we have in those
(23:17):
institutions that they have proven they have they are able
to produce high quality international students, being able to use
their power and their ability to attract more international students.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So we've talked about temporary foreign workers and we've talked
about international students, and you know, I think a lot
of people are worried that the programs increased the fairly
dramatically over the last couple of years, and so that
created a lot of problems, problems with housing, problems with healthcare,
problems with jobs, you know, et cetera. I've had again,
(23:52):
two different points of view presented to me. One is that,
you know, it was a huge program, it was taken
advantage of, it was a massive increase. It created a
housing you know bubble as they demanded housing that we
that we didn't have, et cetera. And then if had
other people say, you know, it's the best way to
integrate people into your society if they come and they
get educated, they learn the language, or they come they
(24:15):
get a job, they get Canadian employment, Canadian experience, because
otherwise the permanent residence is that we potentially get. The
biggest challenge they have is if they don't have English
language or French language abilities. That Australia, I understand, allows
people to come with a job already offered. Canada doesn't.
(24:38):
And so therefore, having someone that's got a job already,
which is critical if you're gonna you know, have a
successful life and career and be able to afford a
house and integrate in society. We don't allow that. So
if someone's come in as a student or a temporary
form worker, they'll have the benefit of the job and
so therefore actually integration into society is far better if
(25:00):
they've started as a temporary foreign worker or started as
a foreign student, rather than just coming in as a
permanent potential permanent residence. So you know, two points of
view on that topic. Where do you land?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
So in terms of temporary foreign workers, we have to
make a balance. First of all, in terms of the benefit.
There is no doubt that when they arrived to Canada
either by job offer. It is possible that even for
both temporary and permanent immigration, individuals arrive with the job offer.
But those who already in Canada, you know, they have
(25:36):
Canadian experience. Of course, they they are more familiar with
that labor market, that integration is. You know, they already
went through a stage of integration phase and post the
permanent immigration they are able to integrate better and more
successful in our labor market because of the experience they gained.
(25:59):
At the same time, the problem with temporary immigration is
that significant increase in their numbers create imbalance. So when
we have a large number of even high quality, a
large number of temporary foreign workers in Canada, but we
have limited number of people we can admit every year
(26:21):
for permanent immigration. That creates that imbalance, create challenges. So
this is something we have to Yes, definitely we want temporary,
high skill, those with relevant labor market skills temporary foreign
workers in Canada. But the total number, the stock of
temporary foreign workers should be checked and should be imbalanced
(26:44):
with the number of people we can admit. There is
no doubt about that. And in regards to, for example,
the type of temporary foreign workers we admit. For example,
there are jobs restaurant jobs or in some grocery store
that we higher temporary foreign workers that we don't really know.
It doesn't mean that Canadians they are not available to
(27:07):
take those jobs. Post pandemic, we didn't see a reduction
in the total number of people in the labor force,
the labor force numbers. It wasn't it didn't decline. It's
just there was a shift from you know, there were
some industrial shift and equational shifts because people found they
were able to find better jobs. They moved from one
(27:29):
job to another job. That's the thing employers need to
remain competitive. They have to seek for you know, potential labor.
In Canada, many many groups they are facing high unemployment
and high unemployment and employment unemployment rate is rising. So
this is really important to consider that that we have
(27:51):
to make a balance with the absorbed capacity of labor
market and the number of people we bring. I'm not
saying we should shut shut down the door which we
need immigrants for our population, but the message is that
more is not better, and we have to think about
who we select. Who we select is more important than
(28:13):
how many.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Okay, So again it sounds like you're not against the program.
You're saying that we need to limit the size of it.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
And reform it. We need to reform this, okay.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
So do you have a number? What guardbrails would you
put in place? What what numbers would you put in place?
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Currently, so we are at more than seven percent of
the you know, the total temporary residence right now, it's
at slightly higher than seven point percent of total population.
To last year, the government announce five percent ceiling for
you know, the target for temporary foreign work in temporary
(28:52):
immigrants in general. I think we still need to make
sure we meet that target first. That should be the
first We need to create a ceiling and maintain that
ceiling for the total number of temporary residents. That doesn't
mean that's the perfect number, but that's the first step
(29:12):
we need to achieve. We haven't been successful to meeting
that target since the announcement. Actually since the announcement we
saw initially increase in the number of temporary residents. So
we have to make sure that the government by end
up next year is able to meet the five percent
target and reassess, Okay, how many you know, the ultimate
(29:35):
goal should be a balance between the total number of
temporary residents with the total number of people we can
admit every year. Maybe the ratio should be one fifth,
one tenth, I don't know, you know, we have to reassess.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Weal, so we've got about forty million people in Canada,
so you're talking about two million people being the limit.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Like that. Right now it's more than three million. So
the problem is that every year now we are admitting
less than five hundred thousand immigrants. You know, it's close
to it's less than four hundred thousand. So we have
to make a balance between because all you know, the
(30:20):
ultimate goal of temporary residence in Canada is to become
permanent immigrants.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Hold hold it. So if you're if you're saying the
target should be five percent of the population for temporary
workers and students, which is about two million people. And
you're saying we're over three or at three million right now?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
We are we are, yes, we are around three million.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So do we have a million people that we got
to deport out of Canada?
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Not deport necessarily. So there are three ways to manage
temporary immigration. First of all, arrival, so the government and
on slash yer for the first time some targets on
for example, the number of study permits and temporary temporary
work permits. But the problem is that it's not still
(31:15):
clear even to me whether they include just new arrivals
to Canada or include those numbers included renew walls, so
renewal includes those people already in Canada. There are different
ways that the government can manage those numbers. First of
all by limiting the number of arrivals, and also by
(31:38):
ensuring that those who are you know, they don't have
they have no other ways to stay in Canada, they
leave the country eventually. And also the main other way
is that to transition, to make those some of those
temporary immigrants to become permanent immigrants. So currently around forty
(32:02):
percent of total permanent immigrants come from those temporary immigrants,
so that's one way of reducing the total number. But
how who should be selected as permanent immigrants Again, that's
that's the main question. We have to focus on those
who were able to find good pain jobs. They it's
(32:24):
not it shouldn't be just experienced. It should be also
the earnings, whether they were able to find good jobs,
not just any job in Canada.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I agree. We got to find people that are going
to integrate into our society, make the contribution, find good jobs, and.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Also verify their earnings because some gain the system.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
We're going to take a break for some messages, and
when you come back, I want to ask our guests
about her own personal experience, because Prisa is an immigrant
as well. Stay with us at one Back into Night.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
No Radio, No Problem. Stream is live on SAGA ninety
sixty am DoD C A.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Welcome back everyone to the bran Crumby Radio. Or we've
got Parisa mahar Movie with us today. She's with the
cd HOW Institute. She runs their immigration policy. She's written
a recent article that I found very compelling about, you know,
the challenges with our immigration policy. I want to take
a step back if I could for a second. Parsa,
you're an immigrant yourself, and you know you seem like, frankly,
(33:36):
the perfect immigrant because you know, I take a look
at your resume. You you Shiraz University. You got a
bachelor's in economics, and then you've got a master's in economics.
Where is Sharaz University by.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
The way, Shiraz is a city in Iran, the southwest
part of Iran.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
And you did a research thesis on the effective exchange
rate volatility on foreign trade. Then you came to Canada,
and maybe you'll tell us a little bit about how
you came to Canada. You went to the University of
Guelf and got a master's degree in applied microeconomics and
looked at educational attainment, literacy skills, and labor market outcomes
among different generations of immigrants in Canada. And then you
(34:13):
got a PhD in economics. And so from two thousand
and seven to two thousand and seventeen, ten years you
were going to school in Canada. I don't know whether
you were an international student or what, but you know,
you got a pretty impressive educational background. And then you
went to work. And you worked for seven years at
(34:34):
the University of Guelf as a teaching assistant, as an instructor,
as a research assistant, and then a special a statistical
assistant at Stats Canada, and then the cd HOW Institute.
You've spent nine years as a senior policy analyst and
then Associate director of research, and you're now running the
research on immigration. You seem to be exactly the type
(34:56):
of immigrant that we want, great education, work, experience, and
now you're contributing to society. Sounds like immigration is working.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Yes, immigration. So first of all, I didn't I came
to Canada as a permanent immigrants. I wasn't international students,
and I didn't come through economic immigration. I came through
family class. But I was well educated before arriving. You know,
I obtained my master's before arriving to Canada. But when
(35:28):
I arrived, I realized that, especially in my field of study,
I needed to go back to university to be able
to find the job that I was hoping for, you know,
the type of jobs that I wasn't really interested. So
that was the decision, and that was the right decision
for me. So that's why, for example, international students are
(35:51):
great potential. Because even I wasn't international students and I
had I was permanity residence. I realized that gaining and
education would help me to land in high paying job,
in a job that is relevant to my skills and education,
and I can be more successful and contribute more to
(36:12):
our economy.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
So did you speak English when you came to Canada?
Speaker 3 (36:16):
I was able to speak English, but of course it
has improved over time. So coming from ENM.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And you came through family unification, did you have parents
here or cousins here or what my espouse?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
So the thing is that when those coming from family extreme,
they don't. They are not selected based on their human capital,
you know, based on their education, language, and the labor market.
Data also shows that economic immigrants, because they are selected
based on their human capital factors like education, language, and skills,
(36:57):
they do better than other streams of immigrants. But what
I did is that go verification.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
I've heard the people that come as part of family
reunification actually integrate really well because they've got family here
as a support system. Is that true or not true?
Speaker 3 (37:13):
The data doesn't show that. The data showed that economic
immigrants again because they are selected based on the factors
that help them to integrate immediately into the labor market.
But I'm talking about the principal applicants of economic immigration.
I'm talking about thirty percent of total immigrants in Canada
that because they are selected based on those factors, they
(37:36):
can contribute immediately to our labor market. So that's the
immediate labor market outcomes. So even for me, I went
back to university, I studied, and then I joined the
labor market. So that's the value of you know, that's
the value that we can think about international students what
they can offer if they receive high quality education in Canada.
(38:00):
And also, for example, for in the reforms that I
provided for permanent immigration, for economic immigration, I focus also
on language. Language is really important for integration of immigrants.
I witnessed that, I experienced that. So it's really really
important to focus on those potential those candidates for permanent
(38:25):
immigration through economic immigration system that they have high language
skills in official language for example.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
So I've been told that one of the criticisms is
that we value education above everything else in our permanent
residency process, that we don't value necessarily having a job.
That people aren't allowed to actually get a job off
before they come. And the language isn't valued as high
as you're suggesting, So how would you change our permanent
residency program?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
So we have a system that a look it's points
to each factor. These factors include experience and the In
terms of the allocation of points, it's a slightly different
between Canadian work experience and or any work experience outside Canada.
(39:16):
So those with Canadian work experience they get some bonus points.
And also in terms of for example, having a job offer,
the system used to allocate some points you know for
the job offer. And also in terms of language, we
do allocate some points, but the when I compare for example,
(39:39):
the allocation of points to language and also within the
language ability great so we are not doing enough compared
to other countries like Australia. So we have to emphasize
high language ability. We have to reform and system in
terms of location of the points to each factor and
(40:03):
also within each factor, how we distribute the points. We
need also add other factors. We have to look at
the data. We have to use the evidence to improve
our system. That what that means means that for example,
education alone is not a good factor of skills. You know,
the high level of education. It means that individuals probably
(40:27):
they have higher levels of skill that can contribute better.
But education it alone is not a good factor.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
All these physicians or scientists supposedly driving ubers and taxis.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
So that's another problem. Selection is one part of our
immigration system. Integration is another part. We have to work
together not only improving the selection but also integration. That
requires different sets of policy and reforms and recommendations for
the government, and they have to go hand in and
(41:00):
you know, we shouldn't only focus on selection, but better selection. Definitely.
The data shows that even with the challenges we have
with integration, improving selection indirection, for example, introduction of EXPERI
century in twenty fifteen sixteen. Since the beginning of that,
(41:20):
we saw significant improvements in the labor market outcomes of
economic immigrants in Canada. Even with the current situation we
have in terms of for example, qualification, recognition and the
other challenges that immigrants facing. In terms of integration selection
improved outcomes, we have to focus on that. We have
(41:41):
to refine the system, we have to improve it in
instead of taking away some of those advantages with business.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
It sounds good. But you know you're the opposite example.
You know, you obviously had incredible qualifications, You spoke English,
you had great probability of having a great career, but
you came in just because you were the spouse of somebody.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
But I believe if I at that time, if I
applied through economic immigration, I was able to obtain, you know,
to meet the requirements because I had you know, I
had master's degree, I had work experience in Iran. I
was able to to meet the requirements for the language
even But at the same time, I'm telling you if
(42:26):
if the requirement is higher, that encouraged foreign potential candidates
to invest in their language before arrivals. You know, if
I wanted to come to economic immigration, I would have qualified.
Probably I would have again, you know, I could become
a permanent immigrant even at that time. But one thing
(42:50):
that is really important, if if I, if I wanted
to come Canada with a better system, I would have
invested in my human capital in my life language more
than uh. It was at that at the time.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
You had a master's degree in economics and you uh,
and you spoke English. You know what more could you
out of interest? And I don't want to get too personal,
but did your spouse come as an economic immigrant or
or how did your spose get here?
Speaker 4 (43:16):
No, he was also uh, he came also to the
family class, but he was also well educated, so we
could both consider as economic immigrants.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
But even that, we both study in Canada after arrivals,
even with higher education.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
So you know, it's interesting because what you're saying is
we got to reduce our our our foreign students. We've
got to uh, you know, improve our quality of and
the points and and and the and the quality of
people coming through economic integration. And yet you and your
spouse are the examples of maybe we should just pick
(43:56):
families that have got great people associated with them and
bring in great families because you know, you're your suppose
to the best examples of people that have integrated into
our society and and got educated and speak the language
and contribute to our community.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I disagree because first of all, I'm just one example.
We don't know the total number of people, you know,
in terms of the qualification. And also, at the same time,
we have to we have to make sure that family
they're united in Canada. You know, if espouses depend on
children's they are away from each other. We have to
(44:32):
make sure that they meet each other. And I believe
the targets for a family carell ass now is designed
in a way that makes sure that people can reunited
in Canada. So I'm not you know, we have to
maintain economic immigrants because I was one example who knows
(44:53):
what you know. The data shows that on average that
category they are not doing better than economic immigrants, and
economic immigrants are the ones.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
That we really want.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Average earnings is above Canadian earnings and they are able
to contribute our economy and building up the total earnings
in Canada and contribute to GDP per capital, something that
we need to focus on. We shouldn't focus on increasing GDP.
We have to focus on increasing GDP per capital.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
I agree with that completely. We're going to take a
break for some messages and come back in two minutes
with our expert on immigration and some concluding comments. Stay
with us, everyone back in two minutes.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Streamers live at SAGA nine sixty am dot C.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Welcome back everyone to the brand Crimty Radio or I'm
having a really enjoyable fasting conversation with Faresa Maharubi, who
is the head of the immigration program analysis at the
cd HOW Institute. She's written a really interesting article a
couple days ago about immigration, and she's talked about foreign
student workers, about temporary workers, and she's talked about family unification,
(46:12):
and she's talked about economic immigrants, and bottom line, I
think what she's saying is we've got to reduce the
number and we've got to increase the equality of the
people that we allow into our country, and that she
thinks language, work, experience, and education are the keys. Though
it's interesting that her own personal experience is a little
(46:32):
bit different than all of that, in that she and
her spouse came here through family ratification and it would
appear turned out pretty good. If you had a chance,
preset to sit down with the Prime Minister or the
Minister of Immigration, what would you tell them to do
right away? What did you tell them?
Speaker 3 (46:48):
So the first thing that they need to do is
to reform permanent immigration system for economic immigrants, and we
have to reduce all those at hoc programs and too
many programs they have created. It's it's it's made the
system unpredictable and it's really difficult to understand the contribution
(47:08):
of each program to our economy. The data is not
enough data available to assess the program immediately and you know,
in a timely manner. And also we need to reform
also temporary immigration in a way that we ensure that
those potential candidates for permanent immigration are the higher skilled
(47:34):
and those that they can contribute to our economy in
the long term. And we have to we have to
focus on increasing public confidence. Without public confidence in immigration,
it's not possible to move the needers. It's not possible
to make sure that immigrants can contribute to our economy
and benefit from living in Canada. So it's going to
(47:56):
make it even difficult to attract top talents, and so
we have to focus on that. And also we have
to make sure that we encourage employers to do better
when it comes to addressing their labor and is they
have to invest in capital and focus on investing in
the type of capital they can contribute to our productivity.
(48:17):
And also ensuring that immigrants they can contribute to our
economy and have a bigger share, because this is what
we need and more is not better, that's the main message.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
More is not better, no PRISTI thank you so much
for Jonas. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
I thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
I think you're right. We we've lost public confidence in
the immigration program for some reason. I think it's because
this significant increase over the course of the last couple
of years, and and and and I really worry that that,
you know, some of this anti immigrant flavor from the
United States might spill over into Canada. And yet Canada
was built on immigration. I think that you are an
(48:53):
incredible example of the contribution that immigrants can make to Canada,
and we need to make sure that public support for
immigration stays high. I do think, and I've spoken to
and interviewed several other people where we've got an immigration system,
at least we have had in the past, and immigration
system that the rest of the world envied and look
and and you know, tried to emulate Australia, New Zealand,
(49:16):
the UK, et cetera. And I do think we have
an incredible opportunity right now to gain from the restrictive
policies in the United States. But we just you know,
more is not not better as.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
And who is select who is select is really important, so.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
We need to find more people like you. So thank
you so much for joining us tonight. Thank you for
the contribution that you're making at the cd HOW Institute
and the studies that you're doing in the articles that
you're writing, because I think it's great proof that immigrants
can be incredibly beneficial to and contribute to Canadian society.
So we need immigrants, and we do need to increase
our per capita GDP, and the statistic that you gave
(49:55):
that economic immigrants actually do really well and actually way
incomes on average better higher than Canadians. So we just
need to do a better job.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
Absolutely, we need to make sure that we don't reverse
the gains we've we bet able to gain through immigration
since the introduction of Expressentery.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
That's the show for tonight, everybody, thank you for joining.
I remind you I'm on every Monday through Friday at
six o'clock on nine to sixty am. You can stream
me online at Triple W Saga at sixty am dot CA,
and all my podcasts and videos go off on my
website Briancromby dot com, on social media, on my YouTube channel,
on podcast servers as soon as the radio show gets
broadcast are good night, everybody. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Price.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
I really enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
Thank you so much, Thank you for having
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Me stream us live at Saga nine sixty am dot
C
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
Saga nine sixty am or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Bediving Everyone, Welcome to the Brian Crompi Radio Wire. I've
got Parsa Mahobi with us set tonight. She is an
associate director of research at the cd HOW Institute, and
we're going to talk about immigration. She's written a really
interesting column that I read about immigration and the challenges
we've got in our immigration system in Canada today, and
she's made a bunch of recommendations as to what we
should be doing, and so I thought it'd be great
(00:39):
to have her on. Parsha Mahobi is, as I mentioned,
associate director of research. She leads the Human Capital Policy
Research Program and chairs the Immigration Targets Council. Her research
focuses on social policy, with a particular emphasis on immigration, demographics,
generational accounting, as well as education, skills and labor market issues. Parisha,
(01:00):
welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thank you for having me, Brian.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Our pleasure, My pleasure. So tell me, you know, why
do you think why do you say that Canada's immigration
policy has lost its way? We've lost our way.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
That's true because in recent years we have moved away
from a clear medit based approach and we started chasing
numeric targets and also feeling, you know, addressing short term
labor needs and also meeting non economic objectives through our
(01:41):
economic immigration system. And at the same time, we didn't
realize that there must be a balance between temporary immigration
and permanent immigration. And not only we increased and you know,
we saw a significant increase in the number of temporary
immigrant vation and temporary immigrants in Canada, and in terms
(02:04):
of the type of individuals we admitted, that has been
also concerning we have we have to revise the system
to make sure that we are admitting and those that
can contribute to our economy in the long term and
increase gdpeople capital and contribute to our productivity in the
(02:26):
long term.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
So, you know, there's been lots of focus on the numbers,
and I guess what you're arguing is that who we
select is far more important than how many we we admit.
But let's talk about the numbers for a second. You know,
what I had heard is that we were, you know,
admitting two hundred and three hundred thousand people a year
into Canada, but it ballooned to like a million people
for a couple of years post COVID.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Is that correct, that's true. We saw significant increase both
in regards to temporary and permanent immigration. For permanent immigration,
government has always had a target for the number of
people that can admit every year, and post pandemic they
started to increase the target and the targets for permanent
(03:13):
immigrations significantly. Given that our population is aging and the
labor force growth mainly is driven by immigration, so there
was a justification that we need immigrants to support population
growth and labor force growth. But at the same time
we have also relaxed our admission of temporary immigrants non
(03:39):
permanent residents, which include international students and temporary foreign workers,
by relaxing criteria and admitting more of those without thinking, okay,
a large number of immigrants. New arrivals are going to
put pressure on the system and whether we are able
to absorb that significant can increase in our labor market,
(04:02):
housing market and other resources are available to support that
increase in the population. Unfortunately, with weak capital investment that
we have in the labor market and in economy, and
also low productivity, challenges we are facing. We weren't able
(04:24):
to absorb that increase in the number of people, and
also we didn't pay attentional quality. You know, there is
a trade off between quality and quantity. When you always yes,
when you increase the numbers significantly, you have to reduce standards.
And that also created challenges in a competition for entire
(04:44):
level jobs that young individuals are also looking for. So
the problem was significant increase during the short period period
of time and also reducing standards.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Okay, so let's talk about some of these different programs
or or or or immigration ways of coming into Canada
and breaking into its component pieces. If we could temporary
form foreign workers. You know, I have heard from lots
of people that we need these temporary foreign workers because
they're the people that work in jobs that Canadians won't take,
(05:19):
that they are low wage, that they are farm workers,
that they're doing some efforts and that and to do
to do a massive restriction of temporary foreign workers means
that will end up making some of our our farms,
on economic amusement parks, on economic uh, you know, healthcare
centers and economic et cetera. What what do you say
to that?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
So in terms of temporary immigration either as you know,
those internationalist students and temporary foreign workers. I admit that
we need them and they are valuable not only in
terms of the contribution to our labor market in the
short and also in terms of, for example, the contribution
(06:03):
of international students to our economy. They spend intuition, they
you know, they need housing, they spend a lot of money,
and they contribute to our economy. But the problem is
that and also another benefit of these categories is that
they are great potential for our permanent immigration. So we
(06:27):
introduced we do have two step immigration and we focused
we try to basically prioritize the international students who have
Canadian education and temporary foreign workers with Canadian work experience.
We try to focus on to select for permanent immigration
because the evidence shows that there's a value to that
(06:50):
these individuals have gained Canadian experience, they were in Canada,
they have majority, they have better language skills, so they
are great potential of potential candidates for permanent immigration. But
the problem is that when it comes to international students,
for example, again because we wanted to encourage the number
(07:14):
of international students, we admit as many as we could,
and we didn't pay attention to the type of institution
admitting those international students, the type of program we are providing,
even the quality of program, and also allowing international students
to work in Canada. That created actually a pathway for
(07:35):
those individuals that they wanted to work in Canadian labor markets.
So not with the purpose of gaining education in Canada,
but the bigger concerns and the objective for those individuals
was to enter the labor market for temporary foreigm workers. Also,
(07:56):
this is important that we need to address labor market
needs to through temporary immigration when there is absolutely no
way to fill those jobs and because for example, it
is it is it takes time to train someone to
gain specific skills to be able to fill those jobs,
or it is not possible to you know, it's not
(08:18):
possible to attract domestic workers and Canadians by offering higher
wages or making adomation. Maybe for some jobs it's not
possible to you know, it's not possible to automate them.
But if any jobs possible to be filled by increasing wages,
if it is possible to train them, you know, in
(08:40):
the short term, to train existing workforce and encourage them
to take those jobs, or make adomation and make capital
investment to add the labor needs. Employeers should do that first.
Even in sectors that we are not able to attract
the Canadians, we have to think about adomation. When it
comes to agriculture, is possible to reduce labor needs to automation.
(09:03):
This is something that unfortunately, employers have been dependent on
temporary immigration for so long time, and it's been so
easy for them to have access to temporary foreign workers
that they were completely discouraged considering other ways.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So, you know, it's interesting what you're saying in regards
to temporary foreign workers, that Canadian companies could just increase
their wages and attract Canadians to do those jobs and
or invest in more automation and machinery such that your
productivity increases. Just to counter that for a second, I've
been told that without temporary foreign workers, we might as
(09:41):
well close down the Niagara and the Okanagan fruit businesses,
that they're completely reliant on temporary foreign workers, that Canadians
won't take those jobs no matter what you pay, and
that temporary foreign workers are the only people that will
come in and perform those services. And that's one example,
and they go on to numerous other examples in the
(10:01):
agricultural sector that's comparable to the United States, frankly, that
without temporary foreign workers, they think that the industries will
just become an economic and closed down. You don't accept that,
is that correct.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
I'm not against then, you know, I'm not against that
temporary foreign worker program is helpful to support businesses, and
I'm not saying that we should you know, actually, I'm
against shutting down the entire the program. It has some
streams that we benefit from. But in regards to some
(10:36):
of those occupations that employers think that it's not possible
to do it through domestic labor. We have to give
employers a path to at least reduce their dependency on
temporary foreign workers, for example. But I make it more
(10:58):
expensive bringing lower skill temporary foreign workers. That gives those
employers incentive to think about, for example, automation. Yes, maybe
even with automation, we still need some temporary forum workers,
but not at the current rate and level that we've
seen recently.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
So, you know, in the United States, we've seen examples
of ice, lots of media reports, videos or whatnot, of
ICE coming in and deporting people. We are, from understanding
scaling back our temporary foreign worker program fairly dramatically right now.
And we've talked about, you know, going down. Are we
(11:41):
going to have deportations? Are we going to have a
Canadian version of ICE? Are we going to have forcible
you know, groups of I don't know police people are
our CMP or whoever it is, immigration personnel going to
farms across southwestern Ontario and the Okanagan arresting temporate foreign
workers and and putting themselves and deporting them. Are we
(12:02):
going to have ICE come to Canada to put in
place these policies to dramatically reduce temporary foreign workers in Canada.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
That may not be the right approach, but there is
no doubt that to protect our integrity of immigration system,
we need better policy and we need to be more
firm about what should be the next step for temporary
foreign workers. For example, the first step is to improve
(12:33):
the system in terms of admissions. And also many of
temporary immigrants in Canada they arrived with the hope of
becoming permanent immigrants. So basically that was a message that
we sent to the ward that's come to Canada as
a temporary foreign workers or international students and you will
become permanent immigrants. So that's a message that we sent
(12:57):
to the message which was wrong. And the problem is that, unfortunately,
in the past, we were able to admit many of
these temporary foreign workers or temporary residence to permanent immigrants
because there was a balance between the total number of
you know, the total population of temporary residents in Canada
compared to the number of people we can admit every year. Unfortunately,
(13:21):
that's that ratio is not in the in the that
has expanded. There is the imbalance between the number of
people can be that can become permanent immigrants in Canada,
and that created challenges for many of those because people so.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's a good program, but it was expanded to two sizeably,
there was too many people that energy.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
It expanded significantly. But at the same time, the quality
and the type of temporary foreign workers or international students
also you know, has changed, so that created significant challenges.
And also we do have, for example, the targets that
the government has in place. It's mainly for international students
(14:07):
and temporary foreign workers, but we have asylum system something that.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Let's wait let's wait on the silent system and permanent residency.
Let's just focus on temporary foreign workers bottom line and
temporary foreign workers. I think your analysis, my assessment is
that you think it's a good program. But it was
expanded and the quality of people that we're allowing in.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
With expanded, and some reforms have been made that when beneficial.
So we need both managing the numbers in terms of
managing the number of arrivals new arrivals to the country.
At the same time, we have to revise the system
that does that. Who think that there is no way
(14:49):
for them to become permanent immigrants to arrive or either
a stay in canda. If the message is kill yet,
if you reform our permanent immigration system and make it transparent,
make it predictable. Unfortunately, right now, our permanent immigration system
true economic immigration, I mean for admitting economic immigrants, it's
(15:13):
not transparent. It's not there is no way even top
talent can predict whether what's the chance of becoming permanent immigrants.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Unfortunately, we're talking about immigration today. We've got an expert
from the City how Institute with us, So we're going
to take a break for some messages and when We're
back in two minutes. We're going to chat some more
with Presha about temporary students. We're going to talk about
we're going to talk about refugees, asylum seekers, We're going
(15:42):
to talk about permanent residents. Stay with us. Everyone back
in two minutes.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Streamers live at SAGA nine sixty am dot C.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Welcome back everyone to the Brank Promby Radio while we're
talking immigration today with the expert, Prisa Maha Movie. She's
an Associate director of Research at the cd HOW Institute.
She leads the Human Capital Policy Research Program and shares
the Immigration Targets Council. She's written recently a really good
column in the paper that really walked through some of
the challenges we have in our immigration system. We've talked
(16:26):
about temporary foreign workers, and now want to switch if
I could, Prisa and talk about foreign students. And I
want to give you two points of view that I've
heard and hear what you got to say. So I've heard,
you know the temporary foreign sorry that that the foreign
students program was just a way of a whole bunch
of private colleges almost getting a whole bunch of people
(16:47):
in that they were fooling that it would be a
fast route to Canadian citizenship. They weren't actually offering them
really good education. They brought them to the country. They
all came from one or two countries in Asia, and
it really took advantage of them because they tried to
position it as a quick way, a fast way to
(17:08):
get a job in Canada, to get Canadian immigrant status,
and they didn't they didn't actually go to school. They
were sort of fictitious educational programs. That's one point of view.
The other point of view was fifty seven percent of
all of the great venture capital companies in Silicon Valley
were started by people on student visas. I was a
(17:30):
student on an H one visa in the United States.
That we've gotten now, particularly because of the restriction the
Trump government has put on foreign students into the United States,
an incredible opportunity to have a brain gain into Canada
with incredibly bright people from around the world. They're going
to come to Canada, go to our universities and spur
(17:51):
some of the economic development that we so desperately want.
And it's the proof is what's happened in Silicon Valley.
And so therefore foreign students are a resource that we want.
Foreign students are just private college ways of getting fast
immigration status. And our real problem in our economy to
(18:12):
this is a brain gain huge opportunity in Canada, which
is true.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Actually both are true because we do have a wide
range of institutions in Canada that we attract international students.
Some that they are Unfortunately, we had some bad players
that they use the system. They played and they gained
(18:40):
the system, and they attract too many international students with
the goal of you know, just focusing on their tuition
revenue and without providing high quality and education to those
international students, promising them that they can become permanent immigrants,
attracting them and they come to Canada with the hope
(19:02):
of you know, gaining Canadian education and also becoming part
of Canadian society and become permanent immigrants and contribute to
our economy. At the same time, we do have institutions
that we we still they are able to attract top
talent and top students from the world. They gained great
(19:24):
they received great quality education here in Canada and some
of those are able to remain in Canada and contribute
to our economy, or we can export education to other countries.
And so there are two stories actually exist, and we've
had it and the recommendations of my pieces that we
(19:47):
need to move away from the first story to the
second one. You know, we allow those institutions, respected institute
institutions that have proven that they can produce use high
quality international students, they can provide high quality programs to
those international students. We need to allow them to continue
(20:10):
attracting those top students from the world and without no resolution,
even under numbers. If they are able to attract your
top students, why not. You know, we shouldn't really restrict them.
But at the same time, we have to eliminate bad players.
That's that's the policy that we need to do.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
How do we how do we do this? You know,
I've heard that the Harvard School of Business and Harvard
Kennedy School of Government, because of the threats from the
Trump government of kicking out people on H one videos
as in the United States, have made an agreement with
the University of Toronto such that they can come and
study at the Monks School to the Roment School. And
(20:55):
you know, these are people that had H one visas
to go to a pretty good university of the United States.
The Trump is now potentially not allowing to stay in
the United States. Harvard and UFT have negotiated an agreement
to help these people. Sounds to me like you're probably
people that would be great, you know, benefits to society,
(21:16):
benefits to our community, benefits for those educational institutions. How
do we ensure that we keep those people or keep
the opportunities for those people to come and as you say,
not encourage the bad actors. How do you do that?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
So, first of all, we need to take advantage of
what's happening around us. For example, what's happening in the
south of the border and the immigration policy in US.
We have to maximize our benefit from those policies shifts
in other countries. This is something other countries also are doing.
(21:51):
We need to do that to benefit from and also
in terms of doing that, this is also a province's responsibilities.
It's not all federal government in terms of nominating or
designating the institutions to be able to admit international students.
This is provinces that are doing that, and they have
(22:11):
to review their list. They have to we have to
use the data and use the data in a better way.
The data about, for example, labor market outcomes of post
you know, international students graduated and inter the labor market.
We shouldn't really allow international students who for those institutions
(22:33):
that they are not able that the government even doesn't
allow them to provide the post graduation work permit. It
means that the quality of education or their students is
not high enough to be able to inter the labor market.
So we have to refine the list of institutions in
(22:55):
we have a list of designated institutions that they can
admit international students. This is on provinces they have to
do that. But at the same time, federal government should
increase its you know, involvement in refining the list of
institutions and to be able. So we have in those
(23:17):
institutions that they have proven they have they are able
to produce high quality international students, being able to use
their power and their ability to attract more international students.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So we've talked about temporary foreign workers and we've talked
about international students, and you know, I think a lot
of people are worried that the programs increased the fairly
dramatically over the last couple of years, and so that
created a lot of problems, problems with housing, problems with healthcare,
problems with jobs, you know, et cetera. I've had again,
(23:52):
two different points of view presented to me. One is that,
you know, it was a huge program, it was taken
advantage of, it was a massive increase. It created a
housing you know bubble as they demanded housing that we
that we didn't have, et cetera. And then if had
other people say, you know, it's the best way to
integrate people into your society if they come and they
get educated, they learn the language, or they come they
(24:15):
get a job, they get Canadian employment, Canadian experience, because
otherwise the permanent residence is that we potentially get. The
biggest challenge they have is if they don't have English
language or French language abilities. That Australia, I understand, allows
people to come with a job already offered. Canada doesn't.
(24:38):
And so therefore, having someone that's got a job already,
which is critical if you're gonna you know, have a
successful life and career and be able to afford a
house and integrate in society. We don't allow that. So
if someone's come in as a student or a temporary
form worker, they'll have the benefit of the job and
so therefore actually integration into society is far better if
(25:00):
they've started as a temporary foreign worker or started as
a foreign student, rather than just coming in as a
permanent potential permanent residence. So you know, two points of
view on that topic. Where do you land?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
So in terms of temporary foreign workers, we have to
make a balance. First of all, in terms of the benefit.
There is no doubt that when they arrived to Canada
either by job offer. It is possible that even for
both temporary and permanent immigration, individuals arrive with the job offer.
But those who already in Canada, you know, they have
(25:36):
Canadian experience. Of course, they they are more familiar with
that labor market, that integration is. You know, they already
went through a stage of integration phase and post the
permanent immigration they are able to integrate better and more
successful in our labor market because of the experience they gained.
(25:59):
At the same time, the problem with temporary immigration is
that significant increase in their numbers create imbalance. So when
we have a large number of even high quality, a
large number of temporary foreign workers in Canada, but we
have limited number of people we can admit every year
(26:21):
for permanent immigration. That creates that imbalance, create challenges. So
this is something we have to Yes, definitely we want temporary,
high skill, those with relevant labor market skills temporary foreign
workers in Canada. But the total number, the stock of
temporary foreign workers should be checked and should be imbalanced
(26:44):
with the number of people we can admit. There is
no doubt about that. And in regards to, for example,
the type of temporary foreign workers we admit. For example,
there are jobs restaurant jobs or in some grocery store
that we higher temporary foreign workers that we don't really know.
It doesn't mean that Canadians they are not available to
(27:07):
take those jobs. Post pandemic, we didn't see a reduction
in the total number of people in the labor force,
the labor force numbers. It wasn't it didn't decline. It's
just there was a shift from you know, there were
some industrial shift and equational shifts because people found they
were able to find better jobs. They moved from one
(27:29):
job to another job. That's the thing employers need to
remain competitive. They have to seek for you know, potential labor.
In Canada, many many groups they are facing high unemployment
and high unemployment and employment unemployment rate is rising. So
this is really important to consider that that we have
(27:51):
to make a balance with the absorbed capacity of labor
market and the number of people we bring. I'm not
saying we should shut shut down the door which we
need immigrants for our population, but the message is that
more is not better, and we have to think about
who we select. Who we select is more important than
(28:13):
how many.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Okay, So again it sounds like you're not against the program.
You're saying that we need to limit the size of it.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
And reform it. We need to reform this, okay.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
So do you have a number? What guardbrails would you
put in place? What what numbers would you put in place?
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Currently, so we are at more than seven percent of
the you know, the total temporary residence right now, it's
at slightly higher than seven point percent of total population.
To last year, the government announce five percent ceiling for
you know, the target for temporary foreign work in temporary
(28:52):
immigrants in general. I think we still need to make
sure we meet that target first. That should be the
first We need to create a ceiling and maintain that
ceiling for the total number of temporary residents. That doesn't
mean that's the perfect number, but that's the first step
(29:12):
we need to achieve. We haven't been successful to meeting
that target since the announcement. Actually since the announcement we
saw initially increase in the number of temporary residents. So
we have to make sure that the government by end
up next year is able to meet the five percent
target and reassess, Okay, how many you know, the ultimate
(29:35):
goal should be a balance between the total number of
temporary residents with the total number of people we can
admit every year. Maybe the ratio should be one fifth,
one tenth, I don't know, you know, we have to reassess.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Weal, so we've got about forty million people in Canada,
so you're talking about two million people being the limit.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Like that. Right now it's more than three million. So
the problem is that every year now we are admitting
less than five hundred thousand immigrants. You know, it's close
to it's less than four hundred thousand. So we have
to make a balance between because all you know, the
(30:20):
ultimate goal of temporary residence in Canada is to become
permanent immigrants.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Hold hold it. So if you're if you're saying the
target should be five percent of the population for temporary
workers and students, which is about two million people. And
you're saying we're over three or at three million right now?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
We are we are, yes, we are around three million.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So do we have a million people that we got
to deport out of Canada?
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Not deport necessarily. So there are three ways to manage
temporary immigration. First of all, arrival, so the government and
on slash yer for the first time some targets on
for example, the number of study permits and temporary temporary
work permits. But the problem is that it's not still
(31:15):
clear even to me whether they include just new arrivals
to Canada or include those numbers included renew walls, so
renewal includes those people already in Canada. There are different
ways that the government can manage those numbers. First of
all by limiting the number of arrivals, and also by
(31:38):
ensuring that those who are you know, they don't have
they have no other ways to stay in Canada, they
leave the country eventually. And also the main other way
is that to transition, to make those some of those
temporary immigrants to become permanent immigrants. So currently around forty
(32:02):
percent of total permanent immigrants come from those temporary immigrants,
so that's one way of reducing the total number. But
how who should be selected as permanent immigrants Again, that's
that's the main question. We have to focus on those
who were able to find good pain jobs. They it's
(32:24):
not it shouldn't be just experienced. It should be also
the earnings, whether they were able to find good jobs,
not just any job in Canada.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
I agree. We got to find people that are going
to integrate into our society, make the contribution, find good jobs, and.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Also verify their earnings because some gain the system.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
We're going to take a break for some messages, and
when you come back, I want to ask our guests
about her own personal experience, because Prisa is an immigrant
as well. Stay with us at one Back into Night.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
No Radio, No Problem. Stream is live on SAGA ninety
sixty am DoD C A.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Welcome back everyone to the bran Crumby Radio. Or we've
got Parisa mahar Movie with us today. She's with the
cd HOW Institute. She runs their immigration policy. She's written
a recent article that I found very compelling about, you know,
the challenges with our immigration policy. I want to take
a step back if I could for a second. Parsa,
you're an immigrant yourself, and you know you seem like, frankly,
(33:36):
the perfect immigrant because you know, I take a look
at your resume. You you Shiraz University. You got a
bachelor's in economics, and then you've got a master's in economics.
Where is Sharaz University by.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
The way, Shiraz is a city in Iran, the southwest
part of Iran.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
And you did a research thesis on the effective exchange
rate volatility on foreign trade. Then you came to Canada,
and maybe you'll tell us a little bit about how
you came to Canada. You went to the University of
Guelf and got a master's degree in applied microeconomics and
looked at educational attainment, literacy skills, and labor market outcomes
among different generations of immigrants in Canada. And then you
(34:13):
got a PhD in economics. And so from two thousand
and seven to two thousand and seventeen, ten years you
were going to school in Canada. I don't know whether
you were an international student or what, but you know,
you got a pretty impressive educational background. And then you
went to work. And you worked for seven years at
(34:34):
the University of Guelf as a teaching assistant, as an instructor,
as a research assistant, and then a special a statistical
assistant at Stats Canada, and then the cd HOW Institute.
You've spent nine years as a senior policy analyst and
then Associate director of research, and you're now running the
research on immigration. You seem to be exactly the type
(34:56):
of immigrant that we want, great education, work, experience, and
now you're contributing to society. Sounds like immigration is working.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Yes, immigration. So first of all, I didn't I came
to Canada as a permanent immigrants. I wasn't international students,
and I didn't come through economic immigration. I came through
family class. But I was well educated before arriving. You know,
I obtained my master's before arriving to Canada. But when
(35:28):
I arrived, I realized that, especially in my field of study,
I needed to go back to university to be able
to find the job that I was hoping for, you know,
the type of jobs that I wasn't really interested. So
that was the decision, and that was the right decision
for me. So that's why, for example, international students are
(35:51):
great potential. Because even I wasn't international students and I
had I was permanity residence. I realized that gaining and
education would help me to land in high paying job,
in a job that is relevant to my skills and education,
and I can be more successful and contribute more to
(36:12):
our economy.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
So did you speak English when you came to Canada?
Speaker 3 (36:16):
I was able to speak English, but of course it
has improved over time. So coming from ENM.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And you came through family unification, did you have parents
here or cousins here or what my espouse?
Speaker 3 (36:32):
So the thing is that when those coming from family extreme,
they don't. They are not selected based on their human capital,
you know, based on their education, language, and the labor market.
Data also shows that economic immigrants, because they are selected
based on their human capital factors like education, language, and skills,
(36:57):
they do better than other streams of immigrants. But what
I did is that go verification.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
I've heard the people that come as part of family
reunification actually integrate really well because they've got family here
as a support system. Is that true or not true?
Speaker 3 (37:13):
The data doesn't show that. The data showed that economic
immigrants again because they are selected based on the factors
that help them to integrate immediately into the labor market.
But I'm talking about the principal applicants of economic immigration.
I'm talking about thirty percent of total immigrants in Canada
that because they are selected based on those factors, they
(37:36):
can contribute immediately to our labor market. So that's the
immediate labor market outcomes. So even for me, I went
back to university, I studied, and then I joined the
labor market. So that's the value of you know, that's
the value that we can think about international students what
they can offer if they receive high quality education in Canada.
(38:00):
And also, for example, for in the reforms that I
provided for permanent immigration, for economic immigration, I focus also
on language. Language is really important for integration of immigrants.
I witnessed that, I experienced that. So it's really really
important to focus on those potential those candidates for permanent
(38:25):
immigration through economic immigration system that they have high language
skills in official language for example.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
So I've been told that one of the criticisms is
that we value education above everything else in our permanent
residency process, that we don't value necessarily having a job.
That people aren't allowed to actually get a job off
before they come. And the language isn't valued as high
as you're suggesting, So how would you change our permanent
residency program?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
So we have a system that a look it's points
to each factor. These factors include experience and the In
terms of the allocation of points, it's a slightly different
between Canadian work experience and or any work experience outside Canada.
(39:16):
So those with Canadian work experience they get some bonus points.
And also in terms of for example, having a job offer,
the system used to allocate some points you know for
the job offer. And also in terms of language, we
do allocate some points, but the when I compare for example,
(39:39):
the allocation of points to language and also within the
language ability great so we are not doing enough compared
to other countries like Australia. So we have to emphasize
high language ability. We have to reform and system in
terms of location of the points to each factor and
(40:03):
also within each factor, how we distribute the points. We
need also add other factors. We have to look at
the data. We have to use the evidence to improve
our system. That what that means means that for example,
education alone is not a good factor of skills. You know,
the high level of education. It means that individuals probably
(40:27):
they have higher levels of skill that can contribute better.
But education it alone is not a good factor.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
All these physicians or scientists supposedly driving ubers and taxis.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
So that's another problem. Selection is one part of our
immigration system. Integration is another part. We have to work
together not only improving the selection but also integration. That
requires different sets of policy and reforms and recommendations for
the government, and they have to go hand in and
(41:00):
you know, we shouldn't only focus on selection, but better selection. Definitely.
The data shows that even with the challenges we have
with integration, improving selection indirection, for example, introduction of EXPERI
century in twenty fifteen sixteen. Since the beginning of that,
(41:20):
we saw significant improvements in the labor market outcomes of
economic immigrants in Canada. Even with the current situation we
have in terms of for example, qualification, recognition and the
other challenges that immigrants facing. In terms of integration selection
improved outcomes, we have to focus on that. We have
(41:41):
to refine the system, we have to improve it in
instead of taking away some of those advantages with business.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
It sounds good. But you know you're the opposite example.
You know, you obviously had incredible qualifications, You spoke English,
you had great probability of having a great career, but
you came in just because you were the spouse of somebody.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
But I believe if I at that time, if I
applied through economic immigration, I was able to obtain, you know,
to meet the requirements because I had you know, I
had master's degree, I had work experience in Iran. I
was able to to meet the requirements for the language
even But at the same time, I'm telling you if
(42:26):
if the requirement is higher, that encouraged foreign potential candidates
to invest in their language before arrivals. You know, if
I wanted to come to economic immigration, I would have qualified.
Probably I would have again, you know, I could become
a permanent immigrant even at that time. But one thing
(42:50):
that is really important, if if I, if I wanted
to come Canada with a better system, I would have
invested in my human capital in my life language more
than uh. It was at that at the time.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
You had a master's degree in economics and you uh,
and you spoke English. You know what more could you
out of interest? And I don't want to get too personal,
but did your spouse come as an economic immigrant or
or how did your spose get here?
Speaker 4 (43:16):
No, he was also uh, he came also to the
family class, but he was also well educated, so we
could both consider as economic immigrants.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
But even that, we both study in Canada after arrivals,
even with higher education.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
So you know, it's interesting because what you're saying is
we got to reduce our our our foreign students. We've
got to uh, you know, improve our quality of and
the points and and and the and the quality of
people coming through economic integration. And yet you and your
spouse are the examples of maybe we should just pick
(43:56):
families that have got great people associated with them and
bring in great families because you know, you're your suppose
to the best examples of people that have integrated into
our society and and got educated and speak the language
and contribute to our community.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I disagree because first of all, I'm just one example.
We don't know the total number of people, you know,
in terms of the qualification. And also, at the same time,
we have to we have to make sure that family
they're united in Canada. You know, if espouses depend on
children's they are away from each other. We have to
(44:32):
make sure that they meet each other. And I believe
the targets for a family carell ass now is designed
in a way that makes sure that people can reunited
in Canada. So I'm not you know, we have to
maintain economic immigrants because I was one example who knows
(44:53):
what you know. The data shows that on average that
category they are not doing better than economic immigrants, and
economic immigrants are the ones.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
That we really want.
Speaker 3 (45:05):
Average earnings is above Canadian earnings and they are able
to contribute our economy and building up the total earnings
in Canada and contribute to GDP per capital, something that
we need to focus on. We shouldn't focus on increasing GDP.
We have to focus on increasing GDP per capital.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
I agree with that completely. We're going to take a
break for some messages and come back in two minutes
with our expert on immigration and some concluding comments. Stay
with us, everyone back in two minutes.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Streamers live at SAGA nine sixty am dot C.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Welcome back everyone to the brand Crimty Radio or I'm
having a really enjoyable fasting conversation with Faresa Maharubi, who
is the head of the immigration program analysis at the
cd HOW Institute. She's written a really interesting article a
couple days ago about immigration, and she's talked about foreign
student workers, about temporary workers, and she's talked about family unification,
(46:12):
and she's talked about economic immigrants, and bottom line, I
think what she's saying is we've got to reduce the
number and we've got to increase the equality of the
people that we allow into our country, and that she
thinks language, work, experience, and education are the keys. Though
it's interesting that her own personal experience is a little
(46:32):
bit different than all of that, in that she and
her spouse came here through family ratification and it would
appear turned out pretty good. If you had a chance,
preset to sit down with the Prime Minister or the
Minister of Immigration, what would you tell them to do
right away? What did you tell them?
Speaker 3 (46:48):
So the first thing that they need to do is
to reform permanent immigration system for economic immigrants, and we
have to reduce all those at hoc programs and too
many programs they have created. It's it's it's made the
system unpredictable and it's really difficult to understand the contribution
(47:08):
of each program to our economy. The data is not
enough data available to assess the program immediately and you know,
in a timely manner. And also we need to reform
also temporary immigration in a way that we ensure that
those potential candidates for permanent immigration are the higher skilled
(47:34):
and those that they can contribute to our economy in
the long term. And we have to we have to
focus on increasing public confidence. Without public confidence in immigration,
it's not possible to move the needers. It's not possible
to make sure that immigrants can contribute to our economy
and benefit from living in Canada. So it's going to
(47:56):
make it even difficult to attract top talents, and so
we have to focus on that. And also we have
to make sure that we encourage employers to do better
when it comes to addressing their labor and is they
have to invest in capital and focus on investing in
the type of capital they can contribute to our productivity.
(48:17):
And also ensuring that immigrants they can contribute to our
economy and have a bigger share, because this is what
we need and more is not better, that's the main message.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
More is not better, no PRISTI thank you so much
for Jonas. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
I thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
I think you're right. We we've lost public confidence in
the immigration program for some reason. I think it's because
this significant increase over the course of the last couple
of years, and and and and I really worry that that,
you know, some of this anti immigrant flavor from the
United States might spill over into Canada. And yet Canada
was built on immigration. I think that you are an
(48:53):
incredible example of the contribution that immigrants can make to Canada,
and we need to make sure that public support for
immigration stays high. I do think, and I've spoken to
and interviewed several other people where we've got an immigration system,
at least we have had in the past, and immigration
system that the rest of the world envied and look
and and you know, tried to emulate Australia, New Zealand,
(49:16):
the UK, et cetera. And I do think we have
an incredible opportunity right now to gain from the restrictive
policies in the United States. But we just you know,
more is not not better as.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
And who is select who is select is really important, so.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
We need to find more people like you. So thank
you so much for joining us tonight. Thank you for
the contribution that you're making at the cd HOW Institute
and the studies that you're doing in the articles that
you're writing, because I think it's great proof that immigrants
can be incredibly beneficial to and contribute to Canadian society.
So we need immigrants, and we do need to increase
our per capita GDP, and the statistic that you gave
(49:55):
that economic immigrants actually do really well and actually way
incomes on average better higher than Canadians. So we just
need to do a better job.
Speaker 3 (50:08):
Absolutely, we need to make sure that we don't reverse
the gains we've we bet able to gain through immigration
since the introduction of Expressentery.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
That's the show for tonight, everybody, thank you for joining.
I remind you I'm on every Monday through Friday at
six o'clock on nine to sixty am. You can stream
me online at Triple W Saga at sixty am dot CA,
and all my podcasts and videos go off on my
website Briancromby dot com, on social media, on my YouTube channel,
on podcast servers as soon as the radio show gets
broadcast are good night, everybody. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Price.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
I really enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
Thank you so much, Thank you for having
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Me stream us live at Saga nine sixty am dot
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Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.