BPS 411: Beyond the Script: Gordy Hoffman’s Guide to Emotional Storytelling

Life, they say, is a story we tell ourselves—a script of experience, moments, and emotions woven into a narrative only we can claim as our own. On today’s episode, we welcome Gordy Hoffman, a screenwriter, director, and the mind behind the BlueCat Screenwriting Competition. His journey through the labyrinth of storytelling has been marked by profound lessons in creativity, resilience, and the delicate art of telling tales that move the human heart.As he shares his insights, one thing becomes evident: the best stories are not formulas but living, breathing entities. Too often, writers are shackled by the idea that a script must be a well-oiled machine of plot points and three-act structures.

But according to Gordy Hoffman, true storytelling is about emotional investment. “The only rule of storytelling is getting an audience to care,” he explains. Without that, no amount of structure or technique can save a lifeless script. Whether it’s an Oscar-winning screenplay or a child recounting their day at school, the heart of a story lies in its ability to make someone feel something real.The conversation drifts into the art of critique—how some script consultants and teachers wield feedback like a sledgehammer rather than a guiding hand. Gordy Hoffman believes in nurturing creativity with kindness, rather than crushing it under the weight of harsh criticism. He’s seen firsthand how a poorly delivered note can stifle a writer, and he champions an approach where constructive guidance fosters growth rather than fear. After all, a writer’s vulnerability is embedded in their work, and the moment they detach from that, their stories lose their humanity.But what about the battle every writer faces—the looming doubt that creeps in halfway through a script, whispering that it’s all meaningless, that every page is a failure? Gordy Hoffman reassures us that this despair is not a dead end but a marker of progress. “Every screenplay you work on, you’re going to hit that wall where you think, ‘This is awful, I’m bored, and I want to start over.’ That’s when you know you’re halfway there.” The magic, he insists, lies in persistence—pushing through the malaise, trusting the process, and understanding that the creative spirit is not meant to be shackled by self-doubt.

The conversation inevitably turns to Hollywood, that glittering beast that both nurtures and devours dreams. The industry’s appetite for franchise films and established intellectual property has made it harder than ever for original screenplays to find their place. But for those who believe in their stories, avenues still exist—film festivals like Sundance, independent productions, and even the evolving landscape of television. The key is not just writing a screenplay but crafting one so undeniable that it demands to be seen.And what of inspiration? For Gordy Hoffman, it can come from anywhere—a fleeting moment, a stray observation, or even an index card scribbled with a single thought. Love Liza, one of his most well-known works, was born from a brief encounter at a gas station. “I saw someone near a pump, and I thought, ‘Are they sniffing gasoline?’ That small moment turned into a story about grief and addiction.” Such is the power of storytelling—it transforms the mundane into the extraordinary, giving meaning to even the smallest of moments.

The beauty of storytelling is that it is never truly finished. It grows, shifts, and takes on a life of its own, sometimes in ways we never intended. As Gordy Hoffman reminds us, the path of the writer is one of perseverance, of believing in the story even when the world seems indifferent. In the end, storytelling is less about perfecting structure and more about opening the heart—to others, to ourselves, and to the infinite possibility of what can be created.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifagpodcastnetwork dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four eleven.
First Think, second Dream, Third, Believe, and finally dare Walt Disney.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we
really should be working on that next draft. It's the
Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of
screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.

Speaker 5 (00:51):
Now.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
on the kind of project you are in the goals
of the project you are, so we actually break it
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(01:13):
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So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered
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(01:35):
dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Speaker 4 (01:40):
My next guest is a screenwriter and director.

Speaker 6 (01:43):
His film Love Liza won the Waldo Salt Screaming Award
at the two thousand and two Sundance Film Festival. His
other film, Dog Bowl Well premiere it at the twenty
fifteen Sundance Film Festival. We're going to talk all about
Paul Thomas Anderson, and we're going to talk a little
boitam thread. We're gonna talk about all that good stuff
because this guest.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
Has you know, been down the road a couple of times.

Speaker 6 (02:06):
And we're also going to talk about obviously the Blue
Cat Screenwriting Competition, which some deadlines are coming up, but
I've also linked to those in the show notes, and
also all the movies we talk about are in the
show notes. Again Dave Bullis dot com. Just remember that's
in case you need it for later. But with guest
Gordy Hoffman. You know, Gourdy, I've actually you know, followed

(02:27):
you for a while. I've I've actually entered the Blue
Cat a few times. I've seen a few webinars. You know,
not only is Blue Cat awesome, but but Gordy, you're
kind of like the the the guy that you want
to learn writing from because you're so like good natured
and you just like have that attitude, you know what
I mean, Like you just seem like you you not
only know what you're doing, but but you know what

(02:48):
I mean, like it's that that you're that you have
the personality that sort of comes through if you know
what I'm trying to.

Speaker 5 (02:53):
Say, Well, you know, well thank you. That's that's very
sweet to say. And you know, I learned probably a
long time ago that you know, when I was directing
and when I got into teaching, that.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
You know, being.

Speaker 5 (03:11):
Loving and kind and courteous when you're talking to somebody
about their stuff and trying to be makes them more receptive.
I mean, if you ultimately want to help people and
serve them and give them some information and help them
with their writing. You want them to be able to
listen and hear what you're saying. And you know, people
get you know, no one wants to be sort of

(03:31):
get negative or sort of shaming or anything, or like me,
denigrated or discouraged in a way. It just it shuts
people down, and they're not going to produce. Actors getting
that nervous crew gets angry, resentful, they're not going to be.
But if you're kind of courteous and respectful when you're

(03:52):
making a film and and when you're talking to people
about their work, it's difficult sometimes to navigate that. But
it's something that we stress with our readers often. You know,
we just say, you know, you got to be you
are talking to the reader when you're setting you know,
writing up the notes and and no one you know,
it's just natural. It's just no one wants to People

(04:15):
tend to shut down. They're not going to listen, they're
not going to hear the notes if if they're delivered
in a way so over time, I think, you know,
I'm just not the you know, it's not really I
guess that you know, there's probably some higher ethical reasons
why you should be good to nice to people. But
it's also it's also very practical, you know. It's also

(04:35):
it's also practical if you want to actually tell a
better story, then it's good to collaborate and work with
writers and work with your fellow collaborators in a way
that fosters that spirit so that they're relaxed and they
feel entitled in the work and excited. So yeah, I

(04:58):
don't want to crush people's spirits, Dave, crust their dreams.
You know. It's just like it stays with you for years,
you know. I mean it's like it's not a good look.
So yeah, so I think it's just I think all
anybody who likes to teach and has been teaching a
while kind of learns that it's a it's a much

(05:20):
more effective way to help a student. And that's what
you want to do when you're teaching.

Speaker 6 (05:27):
You know, in your journey, Gordy, you know, through through
going through all these different you know, uh places like
you know, like Sundance and going on to you know,
doing these webinars, and I mean, I'm sure you've met
a ton of ton of people, you know, and and
so you know, having done all that, have you met
screenwrinning teachers who are who are like that, who just
give like these very like paint like these notes that

(05:49):
are just like directing to the point and very maybe even.

Speaker 5 (05:52):
Yeah, I've I've for yeah, I've heard of students going
coming back and being like, oh, you like saying you know,
And I think some people just feel like that's I mean,
some people think that that and you know if and
I think some people maybe like that, I don't know,
they like the oh I need to be I need
somebody to be tough on me, you know. And I

(06:13):
guess that. But I've had a lot of good writers,
talented people, people that are back have pretty good backbones.
You know, people just fold, you know when they do that.
But yeah, absolutely there's people that because it's, you know what,
it's easier to yell. I mean, it's it's easier to
just freak out on people, you know what I mean.

(06:34):
The work of being like a teacher and the work
of getting somebody effective notes that's struggling in this Wither story.
The work of being a respected director and effective director
is is is being is kind of being able to
react with grace and be able to be respectful It's
so easy to be a jerk, you know, I mean

(06:58):
to just be like why what were you know, like
whatever it is? And but you know, the thing is,
I'm a writer, you know, and I'm and I'm a
filmmaker myself. And I think that's that's why Bluecat, I
think is flourished the way it hasn't grown the way
it has And and I think that's what makes me
an effective teacher as well, because I'm like, would I

(07:19):
want to hear this? How would I want to hear notes?
How would I want to hear this? Like? What would
I what do I think would be fair? And you
know that having that perspective really helps. And I think
some maybe some teachers aren't we're never really writers or
they haven't been writing for a long time, and they

(07:40):
maybe it helps them so, but most teachers, you know,
I think a lot of really affective teachers, you know,
approach it with a pretty even keel. I don't think
you really hear a bunch of you know, here too
much about lunatic people. And I just don't think that that.
I don't think that screamers really. I mean, writing is

(08:01):
such a personal action, you know, it's a very vulnerable
thing all creative artistic pursuits. You know, it's like you're
really opening yourself up. You know, your instrument is your
personal life. And you know it can get a little
hairy when somebody's coming after the writing because it feels

(08:21):
like they're coming after you. So yes, and you only
know that. I think if you experience the process of
writing yourself and you know how personal it is, so yeah.

Speaker 6 (08:32):
Yeah, you know that that's that thing. You know, how
do you differentiate between the writing and yourself? You know,
you hit the nail on the head right there, because
you know, it's kind of like if you write a
screenplay or a short story and you turn it in
and the judges or the script consultant or whomever, or
you know, the writers group doesn't like it. So you
I mean, you feel like I've been there before. I

(08:54):
feel like it's an assault on me, you know, and
you're like, how dare you? You know, and then you
start cogitated.

Speaker 5 (09:00):
Yeah, and that's and that's that's a good it's a
good professional it's good exercising professionalism to be like, you know,
this is not about you, and sometimes things are very personal,
and you know, it feels like oh god, you know,
and somebody's like, I think that character is a certain
way and you thought differently, and that might reflect on
your values, and it might reflect on your ethical uh

(09:25):
you know core, you know, and and that can it
starts to feel like you're kind of getting It's kind
of like, oh, you know, you you think I'm a
creep or you think I'm angry, or you think I'm like,
you know whatever, or you think I condone this or
you know whatever. And the professionals, I think, you know,
I think it's good we all fall into that. And

(09:46):
I think it's always good for me to remember that.
You know. It's like, you know, this is a story.
You know, you're creating something. You're going to create more.
You know, you're gonna have a body of work.

Speaker 3 (09:59):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (10:08):
It's not you, it's not your life, it's you know,
and everything is so personal the reactions from people. I mean,
people are so spot get so wound up with feedback
sometimes and it's it's like haven't you ever gone to
a movie? It's like people that you love, like your
family or your best friends or your spouses, or your
partners or whoever, and you walk out and one person goes,

(10:31):
I hated that, and the other person goes, god, I
loved it, you know. And then and no one goes,
oh my god, we need to move out, you know,
or you know, there's no there's no big fallout. You know,
it's sort of like, okay, yeah, you like Star Wars,
I didn't you know, or whatever, and and you like
Shape of Water and I didn't. There's something, and and

(10:51):
that's it. Then you just go home and get dinner,
and you know, you just kind of go on. But
like when people have a reader or a writer's group,
or a manager pass or a producer never get back
to you, it's like and it's like, oh, you know,
it's so devastating. It's like, you know, they're just people
and it's just another reaction. And sometimes you might have

(11:14):
expectations about you know, wanting a reaction from like say
a contest, or from a producer or from a colleague.
You want that reaction to be you know, the work.
You know, you have expectations. But that's that's also something
that we you know, as professionals, we want to keep developing,
you know, a healthy sense of expectations and keep things
in check and know that it's not at the end

(11:35):
of the world if something doesn't, because you can as
a writer. Writers always you know, there's always another movie,
there's always another great idea. I mean, I'm you know,
I get so worked up and then you know, and
then you know, I come across another thing it's so incredible,
and I go and I'm so excited about the idea

(11:56):
of writing it, and I go, you know, and it
makes you free of everything else, you know, so lower
your expectations and realize everything is you know, everything's coming
from a personal their own personal plays. And just remember that.
You know how many times you've gone to the theater
and walked out with divided reactions and it's so perplexing sometimes,

(12:19):
you know, like what do you mean you didn't like that?
You know, and it's like no, I didn't, and it's
like okay, you know, and and it's just that's what
makes everything kind of fun, you know, that's what makes
the storytelling, you know, interesting.

Speaker 6 (12:31):
I think, yeah, you know, it reminds you that episode
of Seinfeld where where mister Peterman he didn't like he
said he took English Elaine to see the English patient
and she hated it and he actually fired her. It
is so funny because you know, not only does that
speak of character within Seinfeld, but it's also I mean,

(12:53):
you know, that's comedy because it's the ordinary that's brought
up to the extraordinary. Because it's so ludicrous that that
a boss fire an employee because he didn't she didn't
like what movie.

Speaker 5 (13:03):
Is right and that. But that's how impassionate we are.
That's how emotional we are about our decisions and our reactions.
But as a writer, you know, it's it's like, yeah,
and a lot of people get get really hung up
on you know, and and you know, blue Cat gives
out feedback and you know, and there's there's going to
always be somebody who's going to be like this person

(13:25):
you know, didn't you know, And I'm like, well, you know,
that's what it's going to happen. You know. It's not
a perfect process. You know, it's not math. It's not
two plus two equals for and it's just not we're
not doing that and not when like some people watch
call me by your name and have one reaction and
other people. I talked to a guy last night who
walked out. You know, he just thought it was too slow.

(13:47):
And other people think it's a masterpiece, you know, so
and both of everybody's right. I mean, you know, love Wise,
it was a movie I wrote. It came out a
long time ago. It was reviewed in that you know,
and people some are you know, came on theater, so
it was reviewed by the press, and and you know,
I realized that it was like the people that just
thought it wasn't even worthy of a short. They just

(14:08):
thought it was crap. You know. I'd be like, oh
my god, you know, and then and then but then
the people were like, oh, this is like a this
is this is genius. And I realized it's like they're
both sort of wrong and right, you know what I mean,
Like I can't go to the genius people. People that
think it was a masking roll. Well, you're right, that's
a good review, you know what you're talking about the
person who didn't like it. It's like, no, they're both right,

(14:30):
you know, they're both like somebody likes something really like,
oh my god, this is incredible. They're as crazy as
the person that says something's horrible, you know what I mean.
They're just it's just it's you know, it's all emotional
response and personal history and you know it's it's but
I mean, I hope you know, if anything, it's like
I always I'm glad I think it when people when

(14:52):
writers can like really look past that, because it really
frees you up, you know, you realize it's like it
keeps you going, and I think it gets you back
to folks, you know, on developing better story instead of
just focusing on reactions and all that stuff.

Speaker 6 (15:05):
So yeah, and you hit the nail on the head too,
Gordy when you said about you know, this whole idea
of story, because I think too many times when when
you I mean, there's ten thousand screw running books out there,
and the problem is you start to read some of
these and it's all about a formula, you know what
I mean. It's it's the precise, you know, and it
is like you said, it's not math. But some of

(15:27):
those books, though, they treat it as such, where it's
like on page this, on page that this has to
happen and blah blah blah blah, and then you start
to get just lost in this. And that's why I think,
I mean, you must see a lot where you're kind
of like, this feels like they're not really writing a story,
but they're trying to solve like a like a math problem.

Speaker 5 (15:48):
Absolutely. I mean, you know, there was a really there
was a period of time where people were Saved the
Cat was sort of you know, I mean with all
credits to Save the Cat and the and the principles
that the really healthy story principles that it so that
it affirms and everything, and it was a period where
it was like, you know, maybe ten years ago where

(16:09):
it was like everybody was like, you know, really ablaze
with that, and people were using it left and right,
and and scripts some of the scripts were just ain't
coherent because they were just they weren't even they had
lost offense. They weren't even connected to their own story
intuitive sort of compass inside, and so they were like, well,
this is what the character is supposed to do on

(16:30):
this page. And it was like with them, and you'd
read it, you'd be like, I don't even know what's
going on, you know, and and and you and the
emotional thing wasn't happening and everything else. So yeah, you know,
you kind of look for you can you know, the
books are great and if you get stuff that inspires
you incredible, If you get something that makes sense, it's great.
A teacher, an analyst, a consultant. You know. It could

(16:54):
be the guy, some guy you need at Starbucks who says, oh,
I want to read your script, or some the barista,
you know, anybody wants to you know, I'll read it,
you know, And then they go, I just didn't think.
I mean, I've gotten notes from everywhere, you know what
I mean, and it just doesn't there's no there's no
bad source of notes. It's just the one that actually
help you move forward. And know that. But yeah, you

(17:16):
have to strike a balance between what the what formula is,
what kind of this is? What this is the third act,
you know whatever, and knowing that the only rule of
storytelling is emotional investment and getting an audience to care.
I mean, you know, I mean, good example, call me

(17:37):
by your name. I mean, I don't know what formula
that followed or were like act structure or anything like that.
I don't know. I don't know where a phantom thread.
You know, you can't. I don't know what I mean.
I mean, I'd have to probably watch it again or
a couple more times to see. But I'm sure that
Paul Thomas Anderson did not, you know, it was not

(17:58):
even thinking about that. He was just telling an emotional story,
creating characters that he thought an audience would be interested
in and invested in emotionally. And that is what drives
That's what drives affected storytelling. That's what that's what drives
classic movies making, and that's what that's what drives profit

(18:21):
in the marketplace is emotion. I mean, wonder Woman was
wonder Woman because people loved wonder Woman and they were
so gratified by her performance who she was, we were
able to connect with her. It was like, oh, you know,
and it's you know, and so this this happens, Whereas,
like you know, the thing with Star Wars. It's like

(18:41):
there was some mixed reactions out there we can all
kind of safely say, and some people were like, I
am not and basically boiled down to I am not
feeling Luke Skywalker. I do not. I'm like I've lost
my connection with Luke Skywalker. That's really what happened. It's
like it's like they did something else with Luke and

(19:04):
made some choices about the story, and that's what happened.
You can't. I don't think anyone can deny that there
was an emotional breakdown with some of the audience because
of who they knew, Luke Skywalker should be so anyway,
So it's all emotional investment. And so as long as
we can remember that when we're when we're writing, I mean,

(19:26):
just just you know, make a balance between. You can
read stuff inspired, get you thinking about things, get you
thinking about conflict and tone and things like this, you know,
get it's good to think about these things and study
them and look at other movies and how they function
everything else. But don't forget that eight year old child
that knew how to tell a story, you know what

(19:47):
I mean? You can you can. You can go to
a ten year old and go what happened after school today?
And they'll tell you a story. They'll know at a beginning,
to middle and end it. They know what the inciting
incident is, they know what the payoff is, they know
what the ending.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
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and now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (20:10):
You know, and they they know what that is. It's
in their bloodstream, it's in their DNA. And so we
got we we want to strike a balance between what
we learn and what we already.

Speaker 6 (20:21):
Know, you know, yeah, you know, and uh, somebody once
told me about kids storytellers that one of the main
reason that there they actually become such good storytellers is
is because they they're not afraid to fail, and they're
you know, they're not really concerned about that, and they
just sort of they.

Speaker 4 (20:38):
Just go in full force of that story.

Speaker 6 (20:40):
And it's not until you start, you know, going through
you know, your your young adult life or what have you,
you start to go, oh my god, the pure pressure,
Oh my god, what if I look, don't you know,
what if so many things, I'm an idiot?

Speaker 4 (20:50):
What if this isn't good, I suck? Then if this sucks,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (20:55):
Right right? There is definitely a definitely an open, open
feeling about what they're doing and everything else. Absolutely so.

Speaker 6 (21:04):
And by the way, I know you mentioned Paul Thomas Anderson.
You know, I actually saw your am a on on
Reddit Gordy and I last when you when somebody asked
are you the Gordy that but Paul Thomas Ayerson thanked
at the end of the master and you just responded
back with the the Heisenberg meme of your damn right.

Speaker 5 (21:25):
Yeah, you know, it was funny. As I was. I
remember that, I think I was. I had an intern
in the office and he was like, no, let me
get this any and I was like, okay, just put
it up there, you know. He was he thought that
was funny, or somebody was somebody in our office was like, yeah,
he kind of grabbed that meme and put that up there. Yeah,
I was. I was. I looked at the master a

(21:47):
little bit along the way the script, and and you know,
I'm obviously you know, Paul was very close to my brother,
and they were like best friends and like literally brothers
in their own right, you know. And and so we're
very been very close to Paul for for twenty oh,
you know, over twenty years. I mean, I you know,

(22:07):
I mean I saw, you know, the Boogie Knights. I mean,
my brother was telling me about Boogie I gave. I
gave my brother Love Lies than the Fall of ninety six,
and that was when he was shooting Boogie Knights, and
he was telling me about this movie that he was
making about the peign industry. You know. So it's I've known,
you know, Paul, he's amazing. He's he really is our best.

(22:30):
He's really the best we have, you know in America.
I mean he's just he's like a Kubrick level genius.
And he's gonna be I mean, the best is you
have to come. I mean he's gonna Phantom Thread totally
says that. You know, he's going to different play, he's
gonna be, he's gonna everything is gonna he's gonna make
so many great movies and then you know, in the

(22:52):
second half of his life. It's really exciting. But yeah,
I'm very honored. And he's always been very such a
such a humble he's always very respectful of me, and
you know, he's always been respectful of me, and he
always he likes my judgment. And he's just a great guy,
you know. I mean, he's a wonderful man too, is

(23:12):
a good guy.

Speaker 6 (23:13):
So you know, as we were talking about, you know,
directors and giving notes and stuff like that, so you know,
in your experiences and working with him, you know, does
he sort of have that sort of same mentality where
you know, it's it's not so much of hey listen
to me because I'm the director, but it's more of
like he knows how to collaborate, you know, the right way.

(23:34):
Because I've had people on here who've worked with like
Quentin Tarantino, and that's one of the things they say
was his strengths was was that, you know, he would
get into this groove and they always knew when he
likes stuff because he would start, you know, laughing and
stuff like that, and and and you know, they they
knew his vibe is this does Paul Thomas.

Speaker 5 (23:48):
And I'm not been on the sat with Paul, so
I can't really speak to him as a director and
like what that is. But I mean, you know, so
I just all I can say is from my vantage point.
You know, he obviously knows how to cast. He knows
how to direct an ensemble of actors and and bring
them together in the scene. You know, he's very very gifted.

(24:10):
I mean, it's he does so many things well. People
just don't understand that he you know, he's writing on
a certain level that is highly original and authentic, emotionally authentic,
and he delivers high conflict. He never he doesn't run
from emotional emotional beats and high highly intense emotional situations.

(24:38):
You know, he knows how to cast he has an
incredible he has a Shakespearean sense of comedy and how
he balanced his comedy in his stories. So, I mean,
you know, you're a limited I mean, just in what
I just said, you're eliminating like several major directors that
are in this country, around the world that can't do

(25:00):
all of those things. They do not do all of
those things. They can't they can't do all that. And
you go on, you're not even talking about, you know,
where he puts the camera, You're not even you're not
even talking about how he employs score and sound. I mean,
it's it's it's it's off the charge. So it's like
he has so much of that cupboard. He's literally like

(25:23):
I mean to me, I mean, I I you know,
obviously you know I might biased, you know whatever, But
the fact is is that it's like, I mean, not
anyone who knows anything I think probably would agree with me.
But he is one of our he is he is
the master. I mean, he is one of the greats,
you know. And by the time it's all done, I mean,
he's because he's gonna keep going. He's a young man

(25:45):
and he's gonna keep going. And he's he's got all
his faculties, and Phantom Threat was such a such a
step forward I thought in so many you know, it's
such a mature there was something so mat sure about
the movie, and it was a real, real achievement. And
you know, and obviously the Academy you know, agrees because
they they not only nominated the movie Best Picture, but

(26:08):
also nominated him for directing and and I think that
that was well deserved. They know it, they know that
it was it was, it was truly, it was truly
an achievement and really really wonderful to see.

Speaker 6 (26:21):
So, you know, Gordy, that's that's actually one of the
movies I want to see this year. I haven't actually
been you know, either it wasn't playing at the time
I went, or I you know, I haven't been able
to sort of schedule time to go.

Speaker 5 (26:34):
It just came out. I mean, it just came out.
I mean it just came out, like I mean, in
la It's been out since the end of the year,
end of twenty seventeen, but it just was released I
think last weekend a lot of places, so a lot
of people have not caught up to that one yet, so,
you know, But so yeah, so but everyone will get
a chance to take it in. But I encourage every

(26:57):
all writers to look at that, you know, to go
to go to that movie and and think about what
what is successful and what is what is effective about
the story telling in the movie, and and and take
it in and I think you'll you know, it's a
good it's a really great movie for screenwriters. You know.

Speaker 4 (27:18):
That was my mistake.

Speaker 6 (27:19):
Which I actually thought it came out like the end
of November beginning December last year.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
So but but no, it didn't.

Speaker 6 (27:25):
Yeah, no, I was just gonna say, I I I
sometimes I get like released it's all mixed up, you know,
and uh but yeah, yeah, but but you know, you
made a good point. I want to I want to
actually ask about it. Is you know, when you're a screenwriter,
you know some of the you know, the the ideas
of becoming a better screenwriter or you know, you have
you have to read aize screenplays, and obviously you have

(27:46):
to go to different movies. Do you feel that there's
ever like an advantage of one over the other, Because
I I one time went to a screenwriting seminar and
the person said, you can't judge a you can't watch
a movie and try to dissect it that way because
you don't know what the script even look like. You know,
they actors could be improvising, you know, this scene blah
blah blah, and and I wanted to.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
Ask you what do you think of that advice?

Speaker 5 (28:13):
Well, I mean, the fact is is that you know,
that sounds I mean, it sounds like, uh, a fairly
reasonable point. But the fact that a screenplay is is
it's it's part of making the film. And I think
that ultimately, because there's a lot of scripts that you know,

(28:35):
so you're so you can't judge the script. Well, if
the script, you know, it doesn't matter in the end.
We need our audience. We're not writing scripts, you know,
we're right, We're trying to make a movie, you know.
So yeah, So, I mean I think ultimately it's it's yeah,
that sounds like, okay, well, you can't judge the movie
based off of this stuff? Are you? Are you saying

(28:57):
you can't judge the screenplay based off of the movie
that we've just seen.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (29:01):
That that's what they were saying was because Okay.

Speaker 5 (29:04):
I think generally, I think generally, I mean, I think
I'm sure there's exceptions where people, you know, drop the
ball or the money doesn't happen, or there's bad performances
or you know whatever. There's probably a number of reasons,
but I think it's generally, you know, strong writing, you know,
tends to reflect in a strong movie. It's it's very

(29:28):
difficult to make a great movie from a mediocre script.
It's just, you know, it's just difficult. They are very
much correlated. I don't think there's a lot of variants there.
And yeah, so interesting question though I've never heard that.

Speaker 6 (29:46):
Yeah, that's why I always like going and and you know,
just interviewing people like you, Gordy, just you know, people
out there in the field, and and you know, that's
why I want to do this podcast because they get
to hear all these different different takes on different things,
you know what I mean, and you get to share knowledge.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 6 (30:10):
Because I think that's what technology has done. I mean, honestly,
you know, once I started, it's it's kind of I
kind of had my Aha moment, you know, with all
this technology and the way media is the way it
is now, you know, that's that's what it is. It's
it's sharing knowledge and communicating with each other, just a
lot faster and on a much now it's on a
global scale, because I don't know if there's anybody on
this planet anymore that you can't talk to if you

(30:31):
want to, right, But uh, but yeah, and of course
we've seen with movies you know now it's you know,
you know you can put them on Netflix, Hulu, all
that good stuff, and then you can you know, that
show is distribution. But but I wanted to get back
to to you. Gordia is talking about, you know, your
career and everything.

Speaker 5 (30:49):
You know.

Speaker 6 (30:49):
You've actually, you know, directed a few movies, You've written
a few movies, so I actually wanted to ask you
about some of those and some of your experiences actually
making those.

Speaker 4 (30:58):
So you know, your your first movie.

Speaker 6 (30:59):
As you as you mentioned earlier, was Love Liza, So
you know, I wanted to ask you where where was
the impetus for writing that screenplay and how did you
go about being able to direct that movie.

Speaker 5 (31:11):
I didn't direct it. Todd So directed it. Yeah, I
wrote it, and I was I was a cab driver
in Chicago and I saw somebody near a gas pump
and I was like, I was like, is that person
sniffing the gas? And I didn't really see them sniffing it,
but I was like, and I was in my cabin.
I wrote that down in an index card. I used

(31:33):
to have all these blank index cards with me. I
wondered where those are. I like, I wish I could
find them. I wonder where they ended up. But I
you know, I had like, yeah, I got like, uh
to find some of that stuff. Anyways, Yeah, I wrote
down a man starts hopping gas and and you know,
and then that was the germ of it where I
was like, well, why would he start doing that? It's

(31:55):
just like, well, what if his wife committed suicide? And
then I started to write that, and and he finds
a note and I found that I didn't plan on that.
He finds the note, and the note ended up driving
the movie. But that's where love WISEA came from.

Speaker 6 (32:10):
So you know, sometimes when I find pieces of material
that I've like written on an index card or back
of a receipt or something, I'll look at it Gordy
and I go, what the hell was I trying to say?

Speaker 5 (32:21):
Yeah, yeah, that doesn't happen to me too much anymore
but sometimes yeah, I'm like I'll look back on something
I write down in a little idea file. Usually I write,
I get the idea, and I put it on like
a little document, and I just you know, I have
so many of them, and but I usually I know
myself that I better explain it so that I can
look back on it and know exactly what it is,

(32:42):
because if I just write down macaroni and cheese, it's like,
I'm like, what the oh was that idea? You know?
You got to like looks like, oh what was that?
It's like so yeah, But I think we've all had
that experience of looking back at something we jotted down
and been like, Okay, I guess that one's gone.

Speaker 6 (33:03):
You know, I've gotten into the habit of using my
phone now. I use I use like ever note to
to take down all yeah, because it helps you organize things.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
And also you're not like counting around tons of sheets
of paper.

Speaker 5 (33:17):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's that's electronic. You know. That's the
technology that we have now, is that. Yeah, you don't
really have index cards anymore. You just I just usually
just write an email to myself, send it to myself,
and then it ends up on my little movie folder
idea lists for the year, and then uh, and I'm

(33:37):
backing it up every couple of days, the whole computer.
So I got creak. Sure I have everything. So it's
all it's all different from back in the days twenty
years ago when I came up with the idea for
Love Lives.

Speaker 4 (33:51):
And I find it interesting too.

Speaker 6 (33:52):
Gordy, you were you were a cab driver in Chicago
and you were just you know, I guess in between fares,
you were just you know, on index cards. You would
just sort of outline brainstorming ideas that you could put
into a screenplat.

Speaker 7 (34:02):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean that's the thing.
I mean, you know, it just that was what I
was doing. And I you know, to this day, it's like,
you know, I mean, you know, it's like anywhere.

Speaker 5 (34:13):
An idea will come up. But at that time, you know,
that's what that's what my day job was. It was
a whole nother experience, you know. And I drove a
cab in Chicago for three and a half years and
and and that was yeah, I can still remember exactly
the gas station that that happened, and and it was
just one of the random things it was like and

(34:35):
and and I just decided to go with it. You know,
it was an idea, and you know, I just remember that.
It's like sometimes you sit there and go, Okay, what
ideas should I work on? And and you know, any
idea that you pick, you're gonna make great, you know
what I mean. So it's like it's like, I'm like,
don't be so worried about whether or not this is
the right idea, because you're going to work on it

(34:58):
and it's gonna be awesome, you know, I mean, so
you'll make everyone everything work. And so it's like it's
such a and I forget that because I'll be like,
you know, like I don't know. And it's like even
because if I was forced to write my worst idea,
I would I would make it great, you know what

(35:18):
I mean. I would just be like, but one, I'd
be like, Okay, I got to write on that, and
then I would lean into it and I would start to,
you know, my imagination would kick in and I'd start
to come up with ideas. You know.

Speaker 6 (35:29):
Stephen Pressfield once said that you could if you can
get like a sentence out, you can draw a whole
novel just from that one sentence you can pull just
from that one absolutely, and and and he said, I
oh sorry, go ahead, no, no, no, I'm sorry. I was
just gonna say that he actually wrote the legend of
Backer Vance just from that one sentence. He had like

(35:50):
this moment where he kind of jotted down the sentence
and then he has pulled the whole novel from.

Speaker 5 (35:54):
That, right, I mean, you know, and that's it's you know,
do you usually like one little idea, a few little
words you jot down, and then it's like the idea
is there, and and and then you're off to the races.
And but you know, I've done that in classes too,
where it's like I have people, you know, brainstorm like

(36:15):
ten ideas for scenes, and then I ask them pick
the worst idea out of all the ones, and that's
the one I have them right on, and to show
them that basically, any anything you can make anything work,
you know, you do not have to It does not
have to be the best idea is not have to be.

(36:35):
I mean that's really why Ford any kind of writing challenges,
any kind of forty eight hour film. That's where that
comes from. It's because it's for it's people can give
given restrictions, you know, they can still have fun and
be creative and everything else.

Speaker 6 (36:54):
Yeah, and again it's I think it's just when you're
having fun, because I think that I think that's a
lot of things that people forget. But I mean I've
been there too, Gordy, where I'm like, you know, I
completely forget this is supposed to be fun, and it
becomes like so definitely serious, and you start kind of
doubting yourself along the way, and then it becomes a
little more, a little more, and then by the end
you're like, this whole thing sucks. I gotta get rid

(37:14):
of this whole screenplay. I gotta star it all over again.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
And then you can. It becomes a habit that you
have that you have to break.

Speaker 5 (37:23):
Well, every every screenplay. You know. It's like, you know,
any kind of master screenwriter or filmmaker you know will
tell you it's like anything you're working on, you're gonna
get to a wall. You're gonna get to a place
where you're like, this is awful, and I'm bored as
hell and I want to start something else, and there's
this has so many problems and I don't know how

(37:44):
to solve them. And and this is like taking forever,
you know, I mean, it's true despair. And and the
thing is now I know that like when I get
to that place, I'm like, okay, I'm making that way,
Like I know, it's like, okay, I'm actually halfway through,
you know, like because you are always going to hit
that spot and it's like and you are, and you

(38:04):
never get oh man, this is like a this is
so awesome. You know. It's never like that. You always
get to a place where like I'm I hate every page,
I'm like all this stuff. I'm sick of reading this thing.
I'm like, you have that feeling, and it's like in
that and when you have that feeling, it's like, oh, well,
you're getting there, You're almost You're you're probably rounding second.

(38:26):
Just keep going and then suddenly it will come back
and you'll fall in love with it again, and you'll
come up with new ideas and your problem you're you know,
solve these problems, and you'll have another draft and then
you'll start and then you'll be like okay, and you'll
own it all over again, and then you'll really have
something special. But we have to fight through, you know.
The boredom, the despair, you know, just the just the

(38:51):
loathing of the script. You know, at times it comes
up where you're just like, oh God, like I'm so
sick of looking at this and thinking about it. I
think it's sucks or whatever. And you know, you're like
four drafts.

Speaker 6 (39:04):
And you know, yeah it yeah, just even in the
outlining stages, you know, sometimes you're like, oh my god,
what the hell, what the hell was I thinking?

Speaker 4 (39:13):
And uh, you know, yeah.

Speaker 6 (39:15):
One of the things that I've learned too over the
years is just like little tips or so to speak,
or if you want to call them a hack.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
Uh you know that's a popular word now, Gordy hack.
So so everything to hack.

Speaker 6 (39:26):
So one thing I've learned is, uh, is if you
to start an argument, uh, you know, have one, you
know obviously that's where conflict comes from, Right, I want
a Uh you want a and uh we each have
a different way of how we're going to get it
or maybe you know what I mean, and then which
we both need this thing, And that's where this conflict
comes from, is that you know you want something and

(39:48):
you can't get it.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
I want something and I can't get it.

Speaker 6 (39:50):
So if you started you know, starting an argument, and
and that's why I make little notes where I'm going
back through stuff and just saying myself.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
This is.

Speaker 6 (40:09):
You know, maybe this is something that I can do better.
And then you know, like Stephen King once said, if
you if you take a draft or something, put it
in your drawer for two weeks or whatever, go back
to it and that's when you can look at it
again with fresh eyes.

Speaker 5 (40:21):
Yeah, it's great out time changes things and you can
look at stuff and be like, oh yeah, you know,
and you can definitely you know, there's a lot of
that stuff. But yeah, that's great advice.

Speaker 6 (40:34):
So you know, Gody As you took Love Liza and
you were able to write a full screenplay, you know,
how how did you go about you know, just sort
of even pitching it and you know, getting it into
the right hands to get it produced.

Speaker 5 (40:49):
Well, you know, it was a long process. But you know,
my brother read it and like I said, he had
not started shooting Boogie Knights yet, so he wasn't a
movie star or anything like that. He just young and
he read it and he loved it. You know, and
I didn't wasn't giving it to him to be like, hey,
you want to do this, but he wanted to play

(41:10):
the guy, and and that's what it is. So we
attached he was a task. We got a director, we
got Todd Deliso, and then we started to a couple
of producers, and then we started to talk to people
that could add access to money and uh find you know,
producers that you know, could raise raise actually the money

(41:32):
to make the movie. And so it took a you know,
it didn't take that on maybe four years from from
like the whole period of like starting to think about
it and people looking at it, you know, and then
and then then we found some folks and and made it,

(41:53):
you know, and got was able to get Kathy Bates involved,
and and that was how we we got the money.
It was a very low budget at the time. And
and then you know, it got into Sundance. You know,
people responded at Sundance to it, and it got to
Sundance and and then it was bought by Sony Classics

(42:18):
and they distributed. So yeah, so that was that's sort
of the journey. And I think it's I mean, somebody
told me it's on HBO right now, so I think
if you have HBO you'll be able to watch it.
And obviously it's on Amazon for rental, but it's but
Sony ended up Sony Classics. The same guys that were

(42:42):
involved with Love Wise Are, you know, are still running
Sony Classics, you know, and uh call Me by Your
Name is a Sony Classics acquisition that they picked up
before Sundance. And yeah, so you.

Speaker 6 (42:57):
Know, go do you mentioned Sundance and you mentioned, uh know,
call Me by your Name and also you know, with
the Love Liza. I saw an article and I don't
know if you saw this yet in the La Times
that says the SPECS script is dead, and what they
mean is is that Hollywood only wants to make the
big budget blockbuster movies you know, based on you know,

(43:17):
superheroes and things like that, or or remakes of classic
movies and stuff like that, you know, you know, and
that the SPECS scripts now all good at Sundance. So
if you want to make an original movie, you know,
the place to debut it, to show it and get
it bought, et cetera is Sundance.

Speaker 4 (43:33):
You know.

Speaker 6 (43:33):
I don't know if you've read that article, but but
do you do you agree with that in today's current
market for screenwriters that you know, Sundances is where you know,
independent movies really go.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
Well.

Speaker 5 (43:46):
I mean, Sundance is an incredible market. I mean, you
get into Sundance, I mean, all eyeballs are there for
acquisitions and you can, you know, pick up a movie
that can do considerable performance at the box office and
also could win Academy Awards. So you know, obviously it's

(44:09):
a it's a great launch pad now, you know. I mean, look,
if you write a great screenplay, you know you're gonna
be able to do a lot of things, you know,
and that's never going to change the idea of Yeah,
the what was happening in the nineties. The market's changed,
there's uh the you know how they but you know,

(44:32):
but the nineties were also different from the forties, you
know what I mean. So it's not like some you know,
like some evil thing has happened. It's just the market changed.
Storytellers can go different places, but you obviously can you know,
if you write something special, you know you might be
able to get you know, involved in television and television

(44:54):
episodic is obviously sort of that there's another golden age
U right now in terms of you know, storytelling and television.
But you know, but then you can also you know,
write a get Out or write a Lady Bird. Obviously
these people have access and everything, and there's certain you know,

(45:15):
opportunities that might have been afforded Greta Gerwig or whatever.
But the fact is is that you know, three billboards,
you know, these are all movies that are doing doing well.
They're going to do well. No one who is involved
with making them is on is like, wow, I wish
I hadn't have been involved to get Out. I mean,
it's like no way and get Out was you know,
a low lower budget, did not have any kind of

(45:37):
like Avengers type of budget, and it was. But it
all goes back to the writing, you know, and you know,
so just you know, people find you know, writers, and
people want to find like well spec market or you know,
make some you know, ideas about and the bottom line
is it's ultimately an excuse not to do like to

(46:01):
not to deal with the truth. The truth is is
that we have to do what we were talking about earlier.
We have to fight through the boredom to just spare
keep working on our drafts and make them so good
that it blows people away. I mean I got my
short got into Sundance two years ago and got me
a job, like a feature writing job shortly thereafter. And

(46:25):
it was all because of the work that I put
into the short. And I made the short as best
I knew. I just made it best I could, and
you know, and it worked. You know, it got into
Sundayance and people saw it and and land and you know,
it led to a really nice you know, it helped
it can help my career and then moved everything forward.

(46:47):
And you know, somebody would be like, oh, how you
know it didn't follow any kind of formula or anything
else in terms of I just decided to make you know,
I was like, I want to make the short to
kind of show people I can direct, and and then
up doing things that I did not anticipate or expect.
And but I but the thing that I did plan
on doing was making it as best I could. And

(47:10):
so everybody, and I know, people were like, well whatever,
you know, yeah, sure right, it worked really hard on
your screen place that's really great advice. Well you know what,
that's what happened. I mean, it's like where do you
think get out any of these movies, anything that's like
comes out of nowhere, any you know, anything that like

(47:31):
it's like interesting, Where do you think it comes from?
It comes from people like picking up, you know, opening
it up, getting going with their movie, working really hard
on it, continuing to take notes, continuing to push it forward.
That's that's stuff that's never that's that has not changed,
you know. And yeah, the idea, maybe it's a good

(47:51):
thing that like, oh, you can't just put together a
high concept and the movie movie. You know, the studios
are so scared somebody else is going to get it,
so they buy something and it's like sort of half
baked and it's not even that great, and then you
don't even get to really work on it after they
bought it. I mean, you know, maybe that's not really

(48:12):
what we want, you know, Maybe we want a system
that is like that is exactly like that. It's like right,
a big sick right right, write something like three billboards,
come up with something creative, righte, create a dramatic story,
write a really funny comedy, rte a really scary horror movie,
and just make it the best you can, you know.

(48:34):
And I think the market's going to find you anyways,
and it might be better than if they bought your
high concept you know a thing fifteen years ago or
twenty years ago and did that you know.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
Yeah, and the movie you took the Sundance was dog
Ball correct.

Speaker 5 (48:55):
Yeah, yeah, that was a short I had a couple
of years ago that I that I had there. That's
also that's on Amazon Prime. So if anybody you know
wants to see it, it's it's on Amazon Prime. So
if you have Amazon Prime, you can watch it for free.

Speaker 4 (49:10):
And I'll make sure to link to that in the
show notes as well.

Speaker 5 (49:13):
So yeah, yeah, just you know, so if you're like,
you're like, I want to see if this guy that's
what he's talking about, I would see his crappy short,
I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go check out his short.
See if it's good.

Speaker 4 (49:22):
Man, I want to check out on you Gordy Hoffman.

Speaker 5 (49:27):
So yeah, yeah, you gotta you gotta check out you
gotta watch dog Bowling Man. See like, come on, man,
check it out. It's nothing like you know, you go
and check out his movie. You're like, oh man, he
really but I think people are like dog Will's good.
It's got some nice, great actor. I mean, the star
of is excellent, and I think people enjoy it.

Speaker 6 (49:46):
Yeah, you know, I remember, you know, I saw you
are crowdfunding for that, and I just wanted to ask Gordy,
you know really quickly, you know what were your experience
is crowdfunding?

Speaker 4 (49:56):
That movie did?

Speaker 6 (49:57):
Was crowdfunding what you thought it would be? It was
a little harder, a little easier.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (50:11):
Oh man, it's like, I mean, for somebody with low
self esteem, I mean, it is brutal. You gotta you
gotta like you know what, you gotta ask people for stuff.
It's like, oh, I mean it really but you know
what it was like, I was, I you know, I
you know, I stumbled onto a lot of things that
you do well. I mean, it's a whole nother podcast,
but you know I I you know, I found my

(50:33):
way through it and people. I had a lot of
people that wanted to help me and I so I
had a successful run. And then I hadn't finished the
script yet, and I like, I raised all this money
and I was like, oh no, now this has to
be good and talk about pressure. I was like whoa.
And but then I you know, then I kept it
was great. I mean, you know, I really made you

(50:54):
committed to like making a great movie. It was an
excellent way to fund the movie. It worked. I mean, man,
I mean think about all the kickstarter campaigns or crowdfunding
campaigns you've been involved with, and you know, and fortunately
for my backers, you know, they backed a film that
went to sundancee. You know, so they were like they

(51:15):
were like, wow, this is awesome. And then it went
and then it went. You know, I played all over
the country and you know, so people were able to
most a lot of people that backed it were able
to see it in a theater, like at a festival,
and and I was at a lot of those festivals.
So it was really it was super fun and and
but yeah, the Kickstarter was a lot of work. I mean,

(51:36):
you know, it's again it's a whole other podcast. But
you know, there's a lot there's a few few tips
for that. But if you ever want to do a Kickstarter, uh, like,
like as I did two campaigns with dog Ball, one
at the beginning, one at the end. And yeah, I've
got a raft of experience about that and I always
always want to share that because I think there's a

(51:57):
lot of things that people do and they can avoid
and and I think it's a great way to find
the money to make a short film and show people
that you can write and show people you can direct,
and you know, I think it's Kickstarter is fantastic. But
there are some things that I think people get, you know,

(52:19):
and it usually goes ultimate you know, in many ways,
it goes back to you know, something that bogs writers down,
bogs filmmakers down, is a lack of patience. I think
people are impatient to launch their campaign. They're impatient to shoot,
so they don't want to like do another draft, they
don't want to write another movie. They want to get
to shooting. And I think with Kickstarter, it's like you

(52:42):
just kind of want to launch it. You know, You're
like I want to Okay, we're ready, you know, and
then you launch it and you know, you don't really
have your ducks in a row. You're not really ready,
and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, you know,
like I'm like, no one is no one, I don't
really I'm not really getting the money I thought I
was gonna you know, And I think it goes back
to having some patience and you know, preparing and doing

(53:07):
the right work and getting it all ready and doing
exactly what you would do if you were, you know,
wanting to shoot a script, you know, just taking the
time to do it.

Speaker 6 (53:15):
Yeah, you know, I crowdfunded way back when, in like
twenty ten, and then I did it again in twenty eleven,
and you know, it was explaining people what crowdfunding was
it that time, because you know, not you know, nowadays
everybody has a Kickstarter.

Speaker 4 (53:28):
It seems I think some people.

Speaker 6 (53:29):
Get a little burned out, right, But I mean when
you're actually doing it, Gordy, I mean I hear you.
I was right there with you, because it feels, you know,
you're like, my god, is this seeing even gonna be possible?
You know, are people you know, because everyone will tell
you what I what I usually do is and this
is really quickly bring out of time.

Speaker 4 (53:48):
I call it the one percent rule.

Speaker 6 (53:50):
And so if you ask one hundred people to donate
to your crowdfunding campaign, ninety nine everyone everyone's gonna tell
you yes, but ninety nine won't do it, and that
one person will actually go through, and and and give
you some money. So if you use that one percent rule,
that's what the that's the multiplication that you're gonna have
to do to make sure that you have your movie.

(54:12):
So your multiplication your and your your division. And then
if you you you figure you have to tell that
many people. So if you know that you're gonna need
maybe like I don't know, twenty thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars,
you have to kind of can you know, figure out
how many people that you're gonna have to talk to
in order to get that done, because you know, everyone
does what's called Chinese math, and they're like, well, if

(54:32):
I had twenty thousand people each give me a dollar,
i'd have one have them all the money.

Speaker 4 (54:37):
Or I need only need one person to give me
twenty thousand dollars, you know what I mean.

Speaker 6 (54:41):
So it's kind of like, you know, using all that
to your advantage, you have to figure out, you know, okay,
these are where I could go, these are the family,
these are their friends, they can give me thirty percent.
You know. It's stuff like that that you know you've
learned as you as you go about.

Speaker 4 (54:55):
Doing all this stuff.

Speaker 5 (54:58):
Yeah, yeah, it's a you know there's a lot of
stuff going on with it, but I think it I
mean it boils down to content, how you present you know,
your idea, and I think there's a lot of pitfalls
with that. I figure people think, oh, I should make
a four minute video. No one in the world has
ever watched a four minute video. No one watches four

(55:20):
minute videos. Ever. It's like, you know, and it's like,
let me explain it, let me bring everybody in. Let's
talk for seven minutes about what the movie's gonna be about.
No oney want to Nobody wants to watch that. You know.
It's like so there's these things that you sort of realize.
It's like, you know, make a forty five second video,
you know, and and like write a little bit about it.
People want to read it. They're going to find it.

(55:41):
But basically, just give them a little video reminder. Make
sure you have a ton of rewards. Make sure you
have a lot of different ways for people to get in.
If you only have one twenty five dollars award and
then the next one seventy five dollars, you're gonna be
in trouble, you know. But if you have five different
twenty five dollars awards. You know, some people don't want DVDs,
you know, they don't want a poster, you know, And

(56:02):
it's like if the only thing at that money level
is a poster, and then they're like, I don't want
a poster, you know. But if you're like, oh, you know,
I won't give you anything at twenty five dollars, you
get people signed up for that because they don't want
anything nail to them. So I mean, it's like, it's amazing.
I mean, all these things that I sort of learned
while I was doing it.

Speaker 6 (56:22):
Yeah, it's it's all the things, you know, speaking of
the video really quickly. I know, we were almost out
of time, but really, but I once had a friend
of mine hit his crowdfunding campaign was not going anywhere,
and he said, could you you know, he goes, Dave,
I've know you've done this before, would you mind looking
at this for me? And I looked at it and
and Gordie he had him he had like a nine

(56:44):
or ten minute trailer so to speak, and it was
him talking on the couch.

Speaker 4 (56:48):
I said, my god, I said, what could you pop it?

Speaker 6 (56:51):
There was no like other shots, There was no like
footage of the movie or even concept uard or the
storyboard or nothing, even the screenplay. For godsakes, it was
literally him on a couch talking for like ten minutes,
and I said, dude, I know you and I don't
want to do any money to this.

Speaker 5 (57:08):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it's it's really I mean
I learned that like right when I was doing it.
They I mean somebody, I was reading a blog and
somebody was like, we we watched we watched videos for
six months, like we just studied Kickstarter campaigns for six months.
And I was like, wow, okay, and they were like,

(57:29):
and we ended up making a movie. We ended our
video ended up being two minutes or a minute and
a half or something like that. And they said, and
we should have made it shorter. And I was like
when I heard that, I was like, whoa, And so
my you know, my video is seventy seconds. I think
it's like a minute. And I made it like a

(57:51):
deconstruct I did like this. I just came up with
a quick concept and went out and shot it, and
it was it was a little bit slapped together, but
it was like I just I was like, I'm gonna
sort of do the anti Kickstarter video and not really
it was different, but people love the video, you know,
and it was like it was people really responded to
the video because it just reminded people like, oh, Gorty's talented,

(58:14):
is funny or whatever. You know, they just said enough
and then you know so, and then I just I
And I also believe I had a lot of rewards.
I had creative rewards. They were funny to read, and
I had a ton of different ones, you know, not
so many that people couldn't make a decision, but I
just had a lot of ways for people to participate.
And I also just remember that it's like just remember

(58:37):
not everybody wants a DVD, And if you apply that
principle to every war that you give, then you're gonna
come up with alternatives and you'll be surprised that people
will actually they'll take the other thing. And you'll be like, oh,
they don't even want a DVD or they don't even
want to a download, or you know, they just want
to this, you know, they want to actually have that

(58:59):
or whatever. And but yeah, the videos, you know, I
don't think I've ever watched a video, I mean anything
that's over like literally and everyone you go on there
I was like four minutes long. Five It's like, you
kidding me. I mean, no one watches, nobody wants Nobody
watches that, not even you know, not that anyone related
to them. Nobody, nobody watches. You know. It's just too long, man,

(59:22):
It's too long, dude. Okay, come on, man.

Speaker 6 (59:26):
The best crowdfunding video I've ever seen, Gordy. This guy
actually pretended he was kidnapped and they filmed it and
he was actually and his guys were like, well, you know,
you need this money, and he would goes, well, I'll
get it, and they're like, who's gonna give you this money?
He said, I'll go to crowd I'll go to Kickstarter
and or Indy go go. And he goes, I'll ask
the money on that and he goes. They go, really

(59:48):
you can do that, and they That was the pitch
and it was actually it tied into the movie as
well because it was about a kidnapping, so it was
actually pretty creative.

Speaker 4 (59:56):
And it was the body by Kenny G.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 6 (01:00:09):
Not not the musician, by the way, it was, but
it was another another Kenny G. But but but I'll
link to that everyone in the show notes but it
was actually a really really good, uh good crowdfunding campaign
and he ended up making the movie. But but you know, Gordy,
I know we're running out of time. I just enclosing, Gordy, Uh,
I just want to talk about Blue Cat again. I

(01:00:29):
know Blue Cat it's open for submissions right now for
the twenty eighteen season. So if you could, you know,
just in the in a few minutes we have left,
could you just you know, give us a little bit
more information about Blue Cat.

Speaker 5 (01:00:43):
Well, everybody should know that we have really great readers
and we provide written analysis on every script that enters.
So if you enter Bluecat, you will get notes back
on your script. Google read your entire script and you
will get notes back. So that's that's a lot of
people still don't know about that, but Blue Cat's been

(01:01:03):
doing that for you know, over fifteen years now. But
that's that's that's one of our traditions and we do
that as a part of the entry fee. We accept
features shorts pilots both hour and a half hour, and
we are also accepting short films this year, the first
time we've ever done that. So we're gonna have a
screening next June of the top short films that we receive.

(01:01:27):
The deadline's February twentieth, and the next I'm not sure
when you're airing this, but February twentieth is the is
the next is the final deadline. And you know you
can google us and sure you guys will have the
links for that. But yeah, I mean, and if you're
ready to submit, you'd like to get some notes, Bluecats

(01:01:48):
great for that. If you've got if you're really really
excited about your script, please send it to us. If
you're still like knowing you needed to work on it,
then work on it. Fend it to Nichols or Austin
later of the year and you can you can get
back to us in the future. But you know, just
use Bluecat use screenplay contests to you know, to help

(01:02:09):
you and encourage you to develop yourself. And and only
when that happens, you know, should you be using screenplay contests.
But yeah, we're really excited. We you know, we have
a great such a fantastic group of readers. I'm very
proud of them, and and and everyone really loves our feedback.
So you know, looking looking forward to meeting the next

(01:02:33):
winner and you know, the next winners and uh and yeah,
so I'm looking forward to getting your scripts.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Yeah and uh.

Speaker 6 (01:02:43):
Like I said, I've entered group blue Cap before and
I really like the feedback that I got. And like
I said, gord to you, somebody I have one to
have on here before because you have you have the right,
you know, added to the personality to run a screwing competition.
You're you're not only the founder, but you're also like
this brand ambassador for it. And you know you have
that right attitude for it.

Speaker 4 (01:03:02):
Man.

Speaker 6 (01:03:02):
And uh, I and uh, you know that's why it's
so cool having you are on Gordy exent every interview.

Speaker 4 (01:03:07):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 6 (01:03:08):
It's like you're the type of guy like nothing bothers you,
you know what I mean, You're just like you just
go with the flow.

Speaker 5 (01:03:14):
Yeah. Well I appreciate that, man. I mean hopefully I
can remember that sometimes when I'm a traffic out in
Los Angeles. But yeah, I uh look forward to being
back on again. Man. It was a great talk. I
could we could probably keep going. I mean, so if
you ever want me back on, I'd love to talk
about anything. You'd you know, and want to get into
there's a lot of stuff and the just a great

(01:03:36):
interview and love having love being.

Speaker 6 (01:03:39):
On oh and I'd love to have you back on
Gordy and and before we uh we we sort of
cut this off.

Speaker 4 (01:03:44):
Where can people find you out online?

Speaker 5 (01:03:49):
Well, you can find me if you Google, you can
find my probably my Instagram account and I you know,
I don't really tweet a lot, but I do have
a Twitter account, and you know, you can reach out
to me through Blue It's pretty easy to find Blue
Cat and you can reach out to me the air
and stuff. And I'm also you know, one of the
things that we do where there's a lot of interaction

(01:04:10):
is we have something called the Blue Cat Writers Group
and that's on Facebook and it's a closed group but
pretty much anyone who wants to join just gets approved
and we always have weekly discussion questions, and you know,
there's a lot of interaction and it's very positive and
it's not overwhelming, and there's not a lot of you know,

(01:04:31):
extra stuff in there. It's really you know, it's really
about the craft of writing and sort of give and
take around that. So that's another place that people can find.

Speaker 6 (01:04:39):
Me and I'll make sure everyone to link to all
of Gordy's social media links in the show notes. But
Gordie Hoffman Man, it has been a blast talking to you,
and I definitely would like to have you back on
because we you know, like I like, we were just saying,
you know, we could we could talk for another whole
another hour or.

Speaker 5 (01:04:54):
Two, right, Well, looking forward to it, Dave.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Forward slash four eleven. Thank you so much for listening
to guys, as always, keep on writing no matter what.

Speaker 4 (01:05:15):
I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
dot tv.