BPS 416: The Brutal and Honest Reality of Self-Distributing a Film Today with Jeff MacIntyre

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four sixteen.
I believe, along with many others, that you must first
ask for what you want before you can have it.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Wally Amos broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood
when we really should be working on that next draft.
It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
screenplay bulletproof.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host,
Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Now.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
on the kind of project you are in the goals
of the project you are, so we actually break it
down by three categories, micro budget, indie film, market and
studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a
reader that's used to reading tempole movies when your movie
is gonna be done for one hundred thousand dollars, and

(01:14):
we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof script coverage,
our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, w MEE, NBC, HBO, Disney,
Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more.
So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered
by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, Guys,

(01:37):
today on the show, we have seventeen time Emmy Award
winning filmmaker Jeff McIntyre. And Jeff is the director of
a new film called The Great Cookie Comeback, which is
basically a documentary about the founder of Famous Amos Cookies
and how he lost everything and is trying to make

(01:57):
a comeback in his eighties and now. Jeff decided to
self distribute his film because he was getting such ridiculous
offers from traditional film distributors, so he thought that he'd
have a chance on going at it alone and seeing
what he could actually make. You know, and we have
you know somebody who's you have a niche of cookie lovers.
You have someone who's a celebrity, people who know who

(02:19):
Famous Amos is. A lot of things are in his
favor with self distribution, the cost of the film was low,
all of those kind of good things, but he had,
you know, a few mishaps and a few wins, a
few you know losses during his misadventures self distributing. So
he wanted to come on the show to talk about
the good, the bad, and definitely the ugly of self

(02:43):
distributing a film in today's world. And if you are
thinking of self distributing your film, this is an episode
you absolutely need to listen to. So, without any further ado,
please enjoy my eye opening conversation with Jeff McIntyre. I'd
like to welcome to the show, Jeff McIntyre man, thank
you so much for being on the show.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
Brother me. Yes, great to be here. Alex, thank you.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
I appreciate the guy to say right to kick things off,
I think I have to state the obvious, you know,
with everything that's going on in the world right now,
I don't think there's any bigger warning sign that the
end is near by the.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Fact that Alex booked a failed filmmaker on a show.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
I mean, come on, if that's not proof the end
is coming, just start digging your bunker.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
These are desperate times.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Listen, listen, my friend. I'm the host, and I'm a
failed filmmaker in many ways as well, so don't worry
about it. So we have all failed in one way,
shape or form, so it's all good. But I always
also do believe that you learn much more from failure
than you ever do from success. So that's why, and

(03:49):
that's why you and I which are I'm assuming similar
vintages as far as age is concerned, that we old enough, sir, exactly,
we have the shrapnel and uh and you what is it?
What's that saying? My my wife says it all the time.
The devil is more devil because of how long he's

(04:11):
been around, how old he is. So it's not because
he's a devil.

Speaker 4 (04:14):
Oh yeah, he's had more practice, practice, perfect, just devilish antic.
So yes, we have the shrap, but we've also got
the medicine to help shooe the wounds.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
I think he's holding up wild turkey.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
Is that this is high west, high West. Look at
that whisk You like good.

Speaker 4 (04:37):
Bourbons and whiskeys. They are just knocking it out of
the park.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
There you go, there you go.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
I know I could shoot you. Possibly don't believe me.
And you need a little proof.

Speaker 4 (04:45):
So what I'll do for the community. I'm taking one
for the community. Or I feel this guarantees this show
is only going to get better.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
I feel that this is going to be a good episode. Jeff.
I'm just have a feeling that this might be a
fun episode. So first and foremost, Jeff, how how did
you get into this ridiculous business?

Speaker 3 (05:04):
That is a key word. I'll take you way back
to the ripe young age of fifteen.

Speaker 4 (05:10):
I got started in radio at this cheeseball local radio station.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
What does this radio you speak of? I don't understand.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Oh is it like a podcast? No?

Speaker 4 (05:20):
No, no, This was a real FM radio station back in
nineteen eighty five.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
It was a true cast, not a podcast.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
And they eventually acquired even a cheesier cable access station.
So that's kind of where the ball started rolling. About
sixteen seventeen, started doing on camera stuff. But the real
pivotal moment where things really broke open and I really
owe a lot of my career too, was AFI not

(05:51):
the film school alternative fact interpretation.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
AFI.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
I told a couple of really big lies to score
some really sweet positions with ABC TV. This is back
in the nineties, and they desperate spot. They needed technicians,
they needed shooters, editors, and the bar was so low
anyone with a pulse and one working good eye probably
could have gotten the gig.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
So I come in.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
I meet with the headhunch show, this gruff old, grizzled
news guy.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
Eh, well, who are you? What do you? What can
you do for me? Well? I'm an editor, Sure i am?
Why not?

Speaker 4 (06:26):
I can be anything the guy wanted that day, and
granted to that point, I had edited very prestigious productions
like weddings and bar mitzvahs, so I understood the basics
of cutting, but maybe not on the broadcast news level.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
But the interview's progressing. Can you edit? I sure? Can
you can do news? Well, it would be news to
me if I couldn't do news. So this sounds good.

Speaker 4 (06:51):
So you'll start tomorrow, I said, Oh, just out of
curiosity for your news business. Here, what kind of equipment
do you use to edit your news?

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Oh? The Sony Arm four fifty. Oh of course, great choice,
that's what I'd use. Thank you. I'll see you tomorrow.

Speaker 4 (07:05):
So I get in the parking lot and I break
out my big huge cell phone. I call a buddy
who owns a production company. Hey, great, it's chef. I
just got this sweet gig at Channel seven, but I
have to learn how to edit. Do you have a
sony arm through four fifty? And he said, come on over.
He got me up to speed, and that's what really
started the professional ball rolling.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
And from there I told some.

Speaker 4 (07:25):
Other sweet lies and sure, I know how to shoot
professional stuff and produce in the field, so they send
me to foreign countries. And that's what I tell young
filmmakers and professionals. Don't wait till the door opens for you.
The moment you see a crack, you bust through that
door and show up with confidence. And if you know
in your heart you're not going to screw people over

(07:47):
and you probably can learn on the job and do
so quickly, you do it because those opportunities rarely come twice.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
And that's those moments.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
And that is exactly what I did with my fake
editing demo reel, which I used by grabbing other people's
commercial spots raw footage, re editing them, slapping a Nike
logo at the end of it. And I would go
and they were like, you know, twenty like ten million,
five million, dollar commercials whatever like, but they were foreign
raw footage from like Europe, and I was edited. I

(08:17):
was working at a production house. I grabbed it all,
put it together, send it out and I started working
as an editor really quickly.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
But you knew you had the skills.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Had fake it till you make it back, correct. That's
the thing. That's the thing. When you're gonna fake, fake
it till you make it, you need to understand that
you might have to bend the truth to get in
the door, but you've got to produce once you're in
the door, or learn on the job and things like that.
And I did that multiple times while I was coming up,
and I think all big you know, all all professionals

(08:49):
at one point or another extended the truth of what
their capabilities or experience was and figure it out along
the way just to get the opportunity. Because you're right,
if you see that crack, you gotta bust through that
with up question.

Speaker 4 (09:01):
Definitely, it's not like today where we all own the
transmitter basically, we all have our own channels. But back
in the days you and I were coming up, I mean,
there were hugekeepers, gun guarded gun guarded gates.

Speaker 3 (09:15):
They weren't letting you and me in.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
That's for damn sure, sir. Now tell me about your
new film, The Great Cookie, comeback, tell me about it.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
I really prefer not to talk about that film. I'd
like to talk about some interpretive dance. What. Oh my god,
Oh my god, it's gonna be fine.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
Okay, we'll talk about that film. So I don't know
too long to admit. About four or five years ago,
I producing partner Jason. He lives in Hawaii, Honolulu, and
he crosses paths with this guy named Wally Amos. And
just by namesake, yeah, Wally Amos.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
I don't know. I've never heard of him.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
But then when you learn that he's the Amos behind
famous Amos cookies, which we've all enjoyed at a gas station,
uh near you vending machine? Yes, and these actually have
the shelf life of gravel the package version, so that
this is good bunker.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
Uh you know.

Speaker 4 (10:29):
But back in the day, so Wally Amos. The cool
thing about Wally I'm so the booze is kicking in,
so the focus here, So my my buddy crosses Crosses
passed with him, and then uh, the idea is, oh,
let's do a reality show with Wally. I'm like, no,
no one wants to see a reality show with his
eighty plus year old guy.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
Let's do a documentary. His life is so rich and
most people only know him, you know, based on his
sweet treats.

Speaker 4 (10:56):
But his life or cookies was just droppingly interesting. He
was a music agent, one of the first black talent
agents in the US, where for William Morris he discovered
people like The Temptations, he signed Diana Ross, Marvin Gaye,
he discovered Simon and Garfunkle.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Jesus so exactly.

Speaker 4 (11:17):
So that part of Wally's life is really really interesting.
And so that's how his entrede of cookies came to be.
He was representing an actress, Sherry Summers, who was in
Harold and Maud, which is one of my one of
my more favorite classic films, very quirky, and as they
were finishing up a meeting, Sherry busts out this bag

(11:39):
of chocolates of cookies, and Wally's like, where'd you get these?

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Oh? I made them. I just love to make cookies.

Speaker 4 (11:44):
So Wally started eating them and It reminded him of
the simpler days of his past when his aunt used
to make cookies. So he went home that night just
started making cookies. He was so he fell so in
love with the process of baking cookies and giving them
away that in Hollywood at that time, that became his trademark.
Whenever he'd take a meeting, he'd bring a small bag

(12:06):
of his famous chocolate chip cookies. So he kind of
he had this reputation around town as the cookie Man.
So one night he's meeting with Quincy Jones's secretary. They're
having dinner on the Sunset Strip, and she says, you know, Wally,
you and I should start a cookie store. And he
left that meeting and that idea has stuck in his

(12:26):
head ever since decades later. So, in nineteen seventy five,
Wally opened the very first chocolate chip cookie store. And
I know, by today's standards, there's candy stores, there's cookie stores.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
Back in the day, it wasn't.

Speaker 4 (12:40):
He took a big risk to try something brand new,
and it took off. He became a pop culture icon.
He was on every TV show and for ten years
he kind of ruled the roost in cookies. Until he
didn't and he lost it all. But should we go there?

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Do I need to take it?

Speaker 2 (13:01):
I mean, you have to watch the movie. They have
to watch the movie.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
So that's it exactly.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
Well. I actually we were discussing before we got on
air that I actually saw Wally on Shark Tank. He
was pitching his new cookies that he was trying to
h his new cookie company he's trying to launch. But
H just just just know everyone that watched the movie,
but generally speaking that Wally lost everything, lost his company.
H it was pretty It's a pretty brutal story, a

(13:30):
pretty brutal entrepreneurial story. And uh, and then this this
documentary is about his comeback. I'm assuming hence the name.

Speaker 4 (13:37):
Right, and it digs into some of the pitfalls along
his path, and it's it's great lessons for anyone in business.
You don't sign contracts without really understanding what you're signing.
The big thing that kind of crippled him since the
eighties and what he's been trying to overcome ever since.
When these companies would take him over, he signed away

(13:59):
the rights to use his own god given name and
likeness for any future Baked Good Company and that's all
he does, cookies, So they prohibited him for using what
everyone knows him for and he started like twelve other
cookie companies since Famous Amus, But nowhere along the way
was he able to say, hey, you out there, cookie lovers,

(14:19):
I'm the guy who started that cookie that you remember
in love. That really hurt him and that's why he
didn't get a deal on Shark Tank because there's no
access to this woman on that show said yeah, you're
just another random cookie on the shelf, now if we
can't tell the public who you were, So that was
really tough. But I think the better takeaway from the film,
the inspirational lesson is despite of setback after setback, nothing

(14:45):
stops this guy. He continues to persevere at eighty five
and he's trying to start his quote unquote final final
Cookie company, but nothing slows him down. And that's a
great lesson for all of us, especially in this space,
really hang on.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
To absolutely absolutely you can never Filmmakers we have, like
I said, we all have a sickness that once you're bitten,
you can't get rid of it, and it flares up
and it goes dormant, but it's always there. It's always there.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
Now, but you have to be smart in how you
manage the symptoms. Well, that's good. I like that.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
I'm wanted to use that one.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
I like that one cash tagged baby.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
And now if you don't want me asking, what was
the budget of this documentary?

Speaker 4 (15:25):
Chance I wear all the hats, maybe because I like
to cover my bald spot. I shot it, produced it,
edited it so hard cash hard costs were roughly fifteen thousand.

Speaker 3 (15:40):
And that included everything. It's nothing, And I try to
keep my productions low.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
And that's very smart. I've been yelling that for the
top of the Mountain for a long time. Keep your
overhead as low as humanly possible. So fifteen grand for
a documentary with a known entity like famous, amis? I
mean everybody? You just say famous, same as everyone goes,
oh the cookie guy. Oh, this is the documentary about
the cookie guy. So so you actually have a winning

(16:08):
formula here. You've got a known person who's very recognizable
around the world just by the name at least, and
then you also have very low cost So this is
a perfect Like if you were coming to me and
I was consulting you on this, I'll be like, you
are a perfect candidate for self distribution without questions? So
what made you decide to go down the self distribution

(16:30):
route as opposed to going down the traditional route where
you could have easily I think, gotten a distribution deal
off of this, and you might even been able to
get some sort of MG because of the topic and
because of the star of the documentary.

Speaker 4 (16:45):
One step back before I try to dodge your question.
So another great thing that was in our benefit, and
I think it's smartest filmmakers to really zoom out and
survey the entire landscape of what's going on in some
of your main subjects live, what is their network like?
And this was right at the time we embarked on this,
we knew he was going to be.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
On Shark Tank.

Speaker 4 (17:07):
Whenever you can leverage somebody else's free press.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
I mean, this episode is.

Speaker 4 (17:12):
Rerun probably eight nine times, and if you or I
were trying to try by a ten minute slot on
that network, forget it. There's no way we could afford
that kind of had money. So that was great to
put him back on the radar of public consciousness on
that show.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
That helped in our efforts.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
And yeah, I mean I'm kind of in the same
Rocky Leaky Boat as other indie filmmakers, thinking, well, let
me google film distribution, let me listen to Alex's show.
I know he interviews some distributors now and again. These
must be the good guys, so I'll blast them all
with emails, links to trailers, get them excited. And I

(17:49):
did all that, and I was met with, you know,
ninety of f you we have no interest, Thanks but
no thanks.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
The one or two who.

Speaker 4 (18:00):
Bit on the chocolate chip you know, did the standard
crappy offer and threw They threw the flame in the
dumpster to see if I wanted to buy the dumpster
before the fire really took off. And it was at
this time I was getting really frustrated, and that's when
I stumbled upon your buddy Rob Hardy had a course

(18:21):
Film Audience Blueprint, where it taught you how to go
find an audience for your film, I identify niches and
then market directly to them. And that course really was
an eye opener because at the moment I knew I
couldn't take on Hollywood's marketing machinery. There is no way
I can compete with their ad spends, match them, or

(18:44):
out spend them.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
We will always lose on that front.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
So the shotgun approach Hollywood uses to spray out their
message to everyone, hoping that everyone is their niche and
their audience can't work for indie filmmakers. So I thought
the only way I could survive is do a laser
targeted niche focus with my market, find the niches that
I think the story resonates with, and market direct. And

(19:10):
through taking this course, it gave me the confidence to
step it on my own after getting a couple crappy
offers from distributors, and I just felt that I could
do better. Maybe not, Maybe I didn't.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
The first round didn't back that principle, but I still
have hope.

Speaker 4 (19:28):
That when I do launch two point zero, I'll be
a better armed to make a much bigger splash the
next time.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
So how did you? Because because now I'm I'm kind
of breaking this down and analyzing the film and how
I would approach it. It is a niche film, but
it's a fairly large niche. Are we talking about, you know,
seniors because he's older. Are we talking about entrepreneurs because
of who he is? Are we talking about cookie enthusiasts.

(19:57):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show, like who are your niches?

Speaker 4 (20:08):
And how do you hack my excel talc al, I mean,
how did you do all that?

Speaker 2 (20:13):
So how did you first of all identify those niches?
And and to thinking and and and those three niches
I just threw out there. Some of them are obvious,
some of them are not, Like seniors is not an
obvious choice, but it is a niche that I think
that you could address with this film. How did you
first of all pick your niches? And then how did
you plan to target them?

Speaker 4 (20:35):
So we just broke down at its core, what are
this film's two or three major messages? What groups of
people would make them say, Hell, yes, I want to
get to know Wally, I want to hear his story
out to be moved by it. I want to find similarities.
So seniors, of course, And that was just kind of

(20:58):
a no brainer based on Wally at the time when
we started shooting, he was eighty two and his story
is so inspirational and it really plans to seed in
other seniors, people who are retired. It's never too late
to start a fresh chapter. There's always a blank page
waiting for you to turn your passion into something profitable

(21:20):
to start a business, even if it's crocheing toilet seed covers.
If you love crocheting, look at Wally. He turned his
love for chocolate chips into a viable concern and it
brings him joy. So I think that's a great lesson
for seniors. And as you know today, seniors have never
been more active, so they dig it. And then of

(21:41):
course there's the.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
Entrepreneurial, the small business owners.

Speaker 4 (21:46):
And I think when I do my kind of Phase
two revenue run, I will reach out to business schools
and I will cut two different versions of this film
to sell to the educational space, because his story is
so chock full of great business lessons that are timeless really,
and that brings a lot of hope. And also, once

(22:11):
again on the Phase two revenue scheme, reach out to
all these assisted living facilities retirement communities that are in
desperate need of programming. There's activity directors in every.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
One of these.

Speaker 4 (22:23):
Retirement communities that are dying for fresh content. So instead
it is selling them a DVD. I put together on
a whole activity in a box. So this includes the film,
a discussion guide, it includes activities, it includes an opportunity
to start a club, and this really eases a lot
of their pain, like what should we do with all

(22:43):
these retirees? Well, I think if you could solve other
people's problems with your art. I mean, those are just
checks that will hit your account eventually. So that's really
the two main niches. I considered bakers and cookie lovers,
but it was too broad early on.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Well, I mean, to be fair though, like seniors and
entrepreneurs are too very broad. They're niches, but they're pretty large.
They're pretty large.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
Incredibly, yes, so maybe I didn't drill down enough. I
got lazy and I did. I mean, as you know,
it is a grueling process to make the film. To
finally get it out, you're pushing it through the creative
birthing canal and it's painful. At that point, that's where
a lot of filmmakers they've run out of gas, not
only physical, psychic creative gas, monetary gas for many, and

(23:36):
they don't have the juice to take you.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
The next mile.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
And to me, I know you probably agree the next
mile is the most important, the marketing mile. Oh absolutely,
we better have our best shoes strapped on for that
last leg of the journey.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Most filmmakers don't understand that. Before, like when you and
I were coming up, making the movie was the toughest part.
It was the most expensive part. There was no access.
You know, just doing a color grading session would cost
you three hundred dollars an hour. You know, it was
it was insane. But now making the movie technically is

(24:11):
the easiest part of the entire filmmaking process. And we've
been trained, and Hollywood has been putting out this message
that you put out all the audio. I mean, you
put out all the art first, and then you hand
over the business as somebody else to handle. Where in
the new film economy, you've got to know everything from

(24:32):
script all the way to how to generate revenue with
your film. And if you don't understand that that last part,
after that final cut is cut and the deliverables are ready,
you're done, you're done. And most filmmakers don't get that,
but they learn the hard way.

Speaker 4 (24:48):
They do, and it either drives them away or it
makes them stronger once their wounds heal. And to me,
this last leg of the race, the marketing rate, it's
like it's like climbing a mountain. It's a log it's
climbing a mountain barefoot through three feet of snow with
COVID positive piranhas nipping at.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
Your heels just to get to the summit right.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
And for many the first time they get a blister
on their little toe, Oh my feet are and I'm
going home, and they throw in the towel. This is
where strength and resilience and perseverance for us will carry
us to the top and get us to the summit
where we pop the cork.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
We celebrate.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
But not only do I believe is it a win
for our own films to make it across the finish line,
but it's a win for the whole indie film community
because we show it is possible to win absolutely and
the more examples of that, I think, the more inspiration
will provide other filmmakers or maybe too scared to go
through the pain of the climb. So and that's the

(25:48):
vital I think where we're at today. That's one reason
I released that that brutally honest case study, because we
have to all be more transparent if we truly are
a community, it's up to us start sharing our wins
and our losses so we can learn from each other.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
So you so now you've just you've you've identified your
niches uh, and you've identified your audience, and you have
your film and you've decided to go self distribution. What
platform did you decide to use or platforms did you
decide to use to put the film out online?

Speaker 4 (26:18):
I guess let's one step before that. I had to
start generating buzz and market it. You want to talk
about because I did spend a good amount of time
building the Facebook page.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Well, let's let's talk about the Let's talk about the
platform real quick. The next question is all about the marketing.
So what platform did you I used gum Road okay,
and then and you didn't put it on any of
the other major platforms iTunes, Amazon.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
Oh okay, no, thank you, thank you, Alex.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
I'm sorry. That also is part of phase two. I
kind of got sidetracked. I wanted to try this launch
by myself to market direct to the fans with UH
to sell and rent stream only no, yeah, to own
or rented the film from gum Road, which I controlled
the majority of those profits. And then I'm going to
do the whole you know, svo D A v O

(27:06):
D T v O D that still is on the list,
but to date, no, no, I have not ventured into
those waters. So I'm excited to get it up on
those platforms for sure.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
All Right, So we'll come back to the platforms in
your ROI in a second. But how did you now
start planning on putting the word out on this film?

Speaker 3 (27:26):
I think two years.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
Two years before I released it, you know, I launched
the Facebook page and tried to start building up an audience,
producing a ton of original content, custom graphics, memes, clips
from the film.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
So I hustled to.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
Just drive engagement and to build the numbers. I boosted posts,
I put tons of money in Zuckerberg's pocket.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
With varying degrees of return. And so I mean, at
the end of the day reperd a launch, maybe I
had close to three thousand Facebook fans.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Which, yeah, which is it's not It sounds like a lot,
but in the scope of Facebook, it's it's it's nothing. Yeah,
it's not a whole lot, not for a film launch, now, Mike,
So you decided to focus all of your energy towards
a Facebook page as opposed to a homepage or a
blog or something like that.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
I nope, you good, good question. I also had the
film's website where I had set up, you know, a
squeeze page. So a lot of the campaigns on Facebook
would be to drive traffic to the film website where
people I could capture the email, get them on a
news get my email list, I could send them newsletters,
because that's what filmmakers have to The first thing they

(28:44):
need to do is start building your list.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
That is so important and whatever you have to do.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
I I tried a couple different enticements to see what
would move the needle.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
I offered some people his recipe for free. For others,
it was.

Speaker 4 (28:59):
A discount movie ticket, and then I tracked what gave
me the most bang for the buck, and.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Those are called lead generators for people listening. So that's
basically a lead. So you give away a freebie of
some sort to get people on your list so you
could start building a relationship with them and you provide
a tremendous amount of value to them with that lead generation.
Whatever that might be could be a video, could be
a PDF, could be a recipe, could be a checklist,
It could be a thousand different things, as long as

(29:26):
it's really irresistible to the audience. You're targeting. So that
and then if you don't really ask me, how big
was your list when you launched?

Speaker 3 (29:37):
Pass?

Speaker 4 (29:38):
Okay, so the email wait wait, wait, no, damn it,
you're driving me to drink again, I think of.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
I'm a it was pathetic.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Okay, it was truly pathetic.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
It was no, it was like one hundred and twenty
one Okay, so big fail, big fail.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
There.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show. All right, So okay,
so you brought you brought your So you have a small,
very small email list, and you've you focused a lot
of energy on Facebook and you're getting people into your

(30:17):
funnel and things like that. So out of all of that,
and you have gum Road as your your main place
that you're going to be selling your film. So the okay,
how much did you spend on Facebook ads on your launch?
And how many ads did you use?

Speaker 3 (30:36):
So I ran one hundred and twenty one ads. Now
this keep in mind, this.

Speaker 4 (30:39):
Is probably too know. Through February into February, right to
the launch, one.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Hundred and twenty one ads.

Speaker 4 (30:47):
I dropped one three and eighty three dollars, not a
penny more in ads and.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Not a penny more.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
Hell no, Zuckerberg got enough of my high hard earned money.
Yeah dare he h.

Speaker 4 (31:04):
And then this is just to build on your last
point why it's absolutely crucial to own your audience's info
because with one algorithm change poof all your connection to
your potential fan Oh, it's gone.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
You don't want any.

Speaker 4 (31:18):
Other social overlord to control your fan base. You must
be able to reach out directly and communicate with your people.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
That's why you have to build a list.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Well, that's exactly what happened with Facebook originally. If you remember,
like we're talking about eight years ago or something like that,
you used to be able to post something on your
Facebook page and thirty forty percent of people would see it.
Now it's half a percent for free, unless it goes viral,
unless it gets shared, unless something else happens organically, generally speaking,
gets to pay to play. So that changed the business

(31:49):
model for millions of companies around the world, millions of
people around the world overnight. So you always have to
play in your own sandbox. You have to control the sandbox,
because when you played in somebody else's sandbox, you play
by their rules. YouTube did the same thing. People were
making a lot of money off of their ads, and
all of a sudden, Facebook just went Amazon their affiliate
marketing fact they turned no more and people lose their minds.

(32:13):
So because you are, you're completely dependent on that platform.
So a one hundred percent agree. The email list is
the most powerful thing any marketer has, more powerful than
a million two million followers on Facebook. It doesn't mean anything.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
You're exactly right, And to do it again, I would
have focused more effort on pointing all my ads to
that landing page. But keep in mind, and I think
a lot of indie filmmakers suffer from this. Early on,
we really we get drunk on the dopamine likes shares.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
It is intoxicate.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
They like me, they really like me.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Oh my god. I don't have to spend money on
a therapist. I just have to post something and I'm loved.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
But listen up, you damn indie filmmakers. As hustlers, this
is really important. Never confuse the like button with the
buy button. One causes a temporary chemical reaction, the other
produces a long lasting financial one. And never get wooed
in by a like or as share, because those are

(33:22):
meaning they're vanity metrics that won't pay your rent. You
can't call your landlord and say, oh, you know what
this month's rent, I'm a little short.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
Do you take likes?

Speaker 2 (33:31):
Can I can give you? I can give you twenty
thousand followers? Is that because that pay my right?

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Well?

Speaker 5 (33:37):
That may have some value if you're offering, but though
it doesn't because if you're just giving followers away, that
doesn't it doesn't work. You can buy followers, you can
buy empty like tomorrow. You can spend I think I
think the number is like twenty or thirty thousand dollars,
and you can have a million followers, and seriously, that's
literally the cost of buying followers.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
But it means nothing. It's complete vanity because you their
robots or their fake accounts, or their people from god
knows where who have no interest in what you're doing.
So it's basically just like, look how cool I am?
I remember I spoke to a filmmaker that that decided
to spend I think he spent like seven thousand dollars

(34:18):
on YouTube views to get his trailer to be viewed
over a million times, and the movie costs like you know,
it's like a low budget fifty thousand dollars, like action
horror film or something like that with like you know,
I think Michael Madsen was in it, or Eric Robbers
or something like that. So and he was used in
his mind and he was a little bit out there

(34:41):
as far as ego is concerned. And that's saying a
lot because we're all crazy. But he then called all
the film distributors like, look, there's a million people who
saw our film. You've got to buy it. I guess what.
It didn't really work and they lost eight thousand dollars
because of it. Because that's vanity, total vanity.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
It's complete vanity. And that's the thing. You know. Likes
can be bought, but sales have to be earned.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Mm hmm. And before you come, make sure the thing
is with sales, especially with independent film, you've got to
your value proposition has to be massive if you're if
you're trying to go outside the normal world of like iTunes, Amazon,
places where people are very comfortable spending their money because

(35:28):
their credit cards are ready on file. They just click
a little button and it's done. When you're going to
a platform like gum Road or Vimeo, Vimeo or something
like that they are. They don't know who this is.
So now you want me to pull out my credit
card type it into the site that I have no
idea about, to watch a documentary about cookies, or to
watch an independent film that I made about filmmakers running

(35:49):
around Sundance like it doesn't you know it's it's it's not.
It's not a good business strategy. And I love gum Road,
don't get me wrong. I think they're great. And VHX
before they were bought by Vimeo was great as well.
But you're adding another few layers to the process, which
creates less sales. So let me ask you, since you've

(36:11):
been so forthcoming with your numbers. Out of that thousand level,
it was eleven hundred dollars and eighty three.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
Cents, thirteen eighty three.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Thirteen eighty three, okay, thirteen eighty three. Out of that
thirteen eighty three, what was your ROI? What was your
return on investment?

Speaker 4 (36:24):
So these numbers I think covered the first two weeks
of launch. That was all point of that video to say, hey,
this is what self distribution can do for you if
you follow all.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
The steps the gurus give you.

Speaker 4 (36:39):
So the grand total that week was thirty six dollars
and ninety four cents.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Now that's a that's thirty six American.

Speaker 4 (36:51):
USD no bitcoin, but keep in mind.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
But then I it was that was already depressing enough.

Speaker 4 (36:58):
But then I said, oh, it's not thirty six because
to test gum road, I did a couple of test transactions.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
So the grand.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
Total, now let me check my math here was twenty
nine dollars in ninety six cents for a launch of
a film that took five years, thirteen hundred and eighty
three bucks in advertising.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
Plan.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
So so do you mind if I can kind of
dissect this the situation.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
A little bit, get your chainsaw out.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
I want I want to. I want to because I
want to. I think this is a really great and
I think why you put the video out originally, and
I will put that in the show notes. That video
is amazing, that it's like forty almost an hour, it's
insane manifesto, it's a manifesto. It's a fantastic video. I
think because you want to help filmmakers. So I think
this is a great learning moment. So you did a

(37:53):
lot of the concepts, right you You found you have
a niche product, which is a niche a film that's
aimed at certain groups which you could arguably get to.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
It is a.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Valuable good value proposition because there really isn't anything like
this out there. And then the now that's the good stuff,
and you and you, you wanted to self distribute. You
put it on a platform so you can control the money.
Also good. There's a lot of that stuff. And then
you started doing targeted Facebook ads, and you even started
building an email list to a certain extent. So I

(38:30):
think you've discussed it already. We said it. The biggest
mistake you made is all these ads that you were
spending money on were not into a funnel. We're not
directly aimed at that email building list.

Speaker 6 (38:42):
Real quick before you slaughter me, guys, I'm not beating
them up. Guys, listen, I'm not beating him up. This
is why we're not.

Speaker 4 (38:53):
No, he's being incredibly kind. Two other things I did,
or I attempted to do, but the other parties bailed on.
But I really believe in and I think this is
really key for especially documentary filmmakers. I reached out to
influencers who I felt would gel with this film, who

(39:15):
have an audience that totally would love Wally's message. And
let's say, for example, a business blogger, one of the
top business bloggers as a podcast a decent audience, and
I analyze, and I think every filmmaker, you should come
up with a spreadsheet where you put you list all
the influencers that.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
Could relate to your niche, and then you also put
other social numbers. How many followers do they have? That's important.
You want to align yourself with big beefy networks. I
reached out to them.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
I said, hey, listen, I want to try something new
for marketing a film. I'd like to work with you
and create a course. I want to create a course
that uses Wally's story to really drive home some of
the principles you teach.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
Part of your mission statement.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Will be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
And you watch the film.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
You'll pull out five key business lessons in this film,
and then I'll produce it for you. We offer it
to your audience as an add on to the film,
or if you want to give it away as a
value add great. But you make a course, because as
you know, courses are huge and all these guys are
looking for fresh content.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
I thought it would have been a slam dunk and
I got one or two people on the hook and
then they just they vaporize.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
But I think that is key because then they have
skin in the game and they're going to work to
promote this course that they can.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Then monetize themselves. So I recommend that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Absolutely, education, online education, especially post COVID is huge, huge, huge, huge,
And as I'm sure you following what I do, I've
added a tremendous amount of education to my business. And
and that's something that I've because that's what the audience wants,
that's what my my my tribe wants, what my customers want,

(41:08):
and the people that I I'm trying to serve want.
So yes, absolutely. In my book Film Rise of the
Film Entrepreneur, I talk about courses as one many of
many ways you could do it.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
So to get back to your yeah, so that was
to break down.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
So like if I was gonna, if I was gonna
go down this road with this film, I would have
first and foremost, I would have seen if there was
you see, he couldn't go after another cookie company because
he's competing with another cookie company, so that that you
can't kind of leverage that you might have to. You
can maybe find some sort of entrepreneurial organizations, nonprofits, things

(41:45):
like that that you could have maybe partnered with to
get the word out, get on their email list, start
leveraging their emails list. And then why you haven't created
a course specifically on entrepreneural course of your own based
off of his That something you should be doing, because
I think you'll make a lot more money selling that
course off of his name and cut them into it,

(42:06):
by the way, and you give them yeah, absolutely, so
you you partner with him on a course on entrepreneurial
course and that's a huge that would be a huge,
huge money maker revenue. It's kind of like really low
hanging fruit in my mind where I see this personally
as the film as a lead generator. It's a it's

(42:26):
a lost leader. There is. If you can make some
money with it, great, but if you can't, it's all good.
You should be able to generate enough other things that
could do it, Like if you could reach out to
uh Sir Latab or those kind of like chefy baky
kind of companies and see if you can incorporate into

(42:49):
their world somehow where you give the movie away. Look fact,
Sick and Nearly Dead did this so beautifully. I use
them as a case study in my book. And he
literally gave the movie away and he partnered with the
Brevel Juicer in the movie. And now when I went
to go buy my Bevel Juicer, because that's the juicer

(43:10):
I was gonna buy because that's the movie I saw.
So it was great marketing. I went to bed Bath
and Beyond and when I went to go buy it,
guess what was sitting right next to it a DVD
of the movie. If you buy it, you get a
copy of the movie for free. And it just was
He built an entire business around this concept of juicing.
There's potential for that here in the cookie side of things.

(43:32):
In the baking side of things, you can partner with
companies in regards to how you create baking, educational baking packages.
There's so many different things that you can do to
kind of combine him and the film and trying to
generate other revenue sources obviously t shirts, hats, aprons, bake goods,

(43:56):
things like that. But if you're able to create this,
but you're now creating an ecosystem with your film, and
if you can create that ecosystem, and I think that's
one place where you could you could do probably a
bit better. Now it's actually not focused on so much
on the getting of the revenue from the movie itself,
but from all these other revenue sources, because it is

(44:18):
a it's a it's a absolutely film entrepreneurial play. Like
the movie is a giveaway almost one hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
And there's a real evergreen quality to it too, absolutely,
And that's something like I said for Phase two, it's
institutional sales too. It's reaching out, like I said, to
the senior homes business schools right and repackaging it in
that form. And I think I forget which hotel chain,
maybe Radison. They one of their trademark is they actually

(44:48):
leave out hot chocolate chip cookies for guests. So I've
a while back, you know, I try to be in
contact with them to want not put Wally's face on
these cookies or use his and we could put the
we could stream the movie on the hotel video on
demand systems for a couple of months. Airlines, there's a

(45:09):
Midwest Express, uh, it was a Wisconsin based airline years ago.
Used to give out hot chocolate chip cookies.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
Once again, Pivot give.

Speaker 4 (45:17):
Out Wally's new cookie and you get to watch the
movie free in the in the seatback or stream it.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Is there a package? Do you have a package where
you get cookies and the movie for sale early on?

Speaker 3 (45:31):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (45:32):
But once again, the thing with Wally is when we
embarked on this journey, he actually had kind of a
good thing going. He had started a cookie company called
Cookie Kahuna, which when you watched him on Shark Tank,
that was the company who was promoting. But wouldn't you
know it, a couple of months before we release, he
splits from that company.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Thank you, moment of silence. Moment of silence, and then
for all the money maker, I'm not going to pull
the bottle up again, and Drake I already did that
when it happened. But yeah, he really threw us for
a curve.

Speaker 4 (46:07):
But then the story only got a little more juicy
because then he had to do so he had to
leave his home state to try to start another company,
and he was a victim of elder abuse in this
other state he went to, So the story got really wacky.
But yeah, that's just kind of in true Wally form.
He's and he'll tell you he's never been a good businessman.

(46:28):
He's a great marketer, but he never truly, you know,
understood the whole business thing.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Well.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I mean even even that you can go down to
Costco and buy cases of famous am As cookies and
package them yourself and sell them. I mean you could arguably.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
Right there is yeah, there is exactly, you know, like
if it's like.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Look, I mean, if you could you could do something
like that, I mean, there's there's there's a lot of
potential here. I think you said this, you said this
in the in your video. It's like it wasn't lack
of plan as much as it was execution and figuring
out those kind of dialing in those certain things. Because

(47:14):
like if I was trying, like it's seriously, if I
sat there and started thinking about how to market this,
I would be creating bigger value propositions like crazy like
cookie packages and baking and all these other kind of
revenue streams and seeing what I can leverage as far
as audiences through other companies and things like that, as

(47:35):
opposed to going down the road of and influencers are
great and going down the business side is great, and
I love your ideas with the senior living and the
cruise lines and the airlines and business schools and all that.
That's excellent. I know, I know one documentary filmmaker made
over a million dollars with a senior based of.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
Film with the age of Champion guys.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
Those guys yeah and Chris, Yeah, yeah, they they.

Speaker 4 (48:03):
Killed and I based a lot of this on them.
They're incredible what they did.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yeah, And I think you could go to that same
senior living convention once COVID is done and sell and
sell licenses there. There's just no question you could do
that as well. So there is definitely a bright future
for the Great Cookie comeback. There is definitely a bright future.
So we've discussed what you've done right and a few

(48:27):
things that you did wrong as well. Let me see
how on a second, uh, because we covered a bunch
now that so yeah, we covered a lot of stuff already.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
I mean, if you want to, if you want to
dive into I did get a couple offers from distributors.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
So okay, So with distributors specifically, because I'm let me
tell you what the let me see if I can guess,
So okay, and let me see if I can guess
these deals no money upfront, so no MG's okay, great,
so no money up front. I'm gonna say it's going
to be an eight to ten year length, give or.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Take if I was lucky, but okay, yeah, oh right.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
Or fifteen years. Yeah, I was trying to be nice.
It's about fifty it's about fifteen years.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
Right, thank you. I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Then there was also call the marketing expenses, of course,
which they'll cap, and it's going to range. I'm gonna say,
on the less predatory side, fifty thousand, on the more
predatory side one hundred thousand.

Speaker 4 (49:30):
A little lower, but yeah, I don't think they Yeah, yeah,
twenty twenty thousand.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Okay, that was Actually that's not a bad marketing cap.
But then that means you'll never.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
See I'll never see anything anything.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
You'll never see anything. It's basically a lost leader. At
that point. Those were the deals you were gotten. But
that's the standard deal. And if you would have been
a lesser filmmaker in the sense of your knowledge, you
would have just been on one of those and prayed
because you're like, oh, it only cost me fifteen grand,
you know, I'm sure I'll get that least that back.

(50:05):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
Never which you won't, which you won't.

Speaker 4 (50:18):
And thanks to guys like you and Rob Hardy, I mean,
you've you're really rattling the cages and shouting this from
the mountaintops and you're keeping us awake, and it's all
of our responsibilities to stay sober and not be wood
because once again, just like likes and shares, it's very
intoxicating when you get an email or return email from
a distributor, Oh my god, they like my film, and

(50:40):
then you know, the Hollywood red carpet fantasy starts playing
and you're in your mind, but no, you have to
shut that down. You got to pull the plug on
that projector because it rarely ever works out that way,
and it's just it's like waiting. It's high school prom
all over again. Will you wait till week before the
big dance?

Speaker 3 (51:00):
Ask a girl out?

Speaker 4 (51:01):
And your options are so limited by then and you're
really nervous and you're desperate.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
They all smell that on you and you get a.

Speaker 4 (51:07):
Bunch of no's and the day three two days before
the prom and eventually this one girl says yes, and
you're so elated and relieved.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
Despite your reputation, she still said yes.

Speaker 4 (51:20):
Right, the chances that she'll show up or or actually
be there at midnight or dance with you, and then
lopper comes on time after time.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Well, obviously, isn't this the beginning of every Blake Edwards film.
I think maybe that's what I'm channeling now, that's right, exactly, exactly, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
And oh and then by the end of the evening,
absolutely no distributing will be going on.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
No, there'll be no distributing. None, no distributing, No distributing
at all is gonna happen. Now, did you think of
possibly going with a film aggregator to get your film
up on these platforms? Is that something you're thinking doing?

Speaker 4 (52:02):
And this is an area that I really haven't dipped
my toe in the water enough. I mean, film hub
seems very intriguing.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
No, I'm sorry, that was just a twitch in my neck.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
I apologize, Oh gotcha, I think it was Freudian. I'm
gonna replay the video. But aside from them, tell me
who should I call or all?

Speaker 4 (52:22):
All of us are on the edge of our footons, Alex,
what are some city aggregators.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
I'm catering on the edge.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Well, because of the whole Distributed debacle and how I
heavily promoted them for two years. It's one of the
reasons why I came out so heavily guns of blaring
against them when I found out what happened. I try
not to recommend any specific company because a company that
could be good right now is not a company that's

(52:50):
going to be good six months from now. And I've
found that anytime I release one of these podcasts, they
are evergreen, and I hear people are like, oh, I
went with this distributor because they were on your show.
And then I'm like, oh, but they're not good anymore
because they did this or that and their companies this now,
and I have to delete that episode. So I, oh wow, Yeah,

(53:12):
I've become Ever since distriber, I've become very militant. So
I if I hear any negative thing about a past
company or guest that I've spoken to that could possibly
harm filmmakers, I go back and delete it and I
delete it from everywhere.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
Well, thank you on behalf of all of us.

Speaker 4 (53:30):
Thank you, because we do look to you and others
in the space for kind of stage advice because we
don't have access to these big guys. So you're in
a really, I think a unique position, and you know
it to be able to bring us people that.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
We cannot connect with.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
So we take that to be almost an endorsement when
I get your position. But the deal I got was
from a guest from one of your past podcasts, a
distributor that I have to check your library to see
if they're still on, not to say.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
They are, Oh, I know exactly who you just by
the terms, I knew who they were, and they are
no longer and they are no longer on the on
the podcast.

Speaker 4 (54:08):
Right yeah, rhymes with crappy toss. But which is the
nature of the deal.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
No one will get that.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
I have no idea what you're talking about, sir.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
Uh. But what a world?

Speaker 2 (54:28):
What a world it is? It is it's it's an
insane world, and it's getting insaner. You know, can twenty
twenty be over with? Please? It's a general statement, let
alone everything else. If I would have told you in
January that not only will the entire world shut down
and the economy would shut down in the United States,

(54:49):
but all movie theaters will be closed. There would be
no summer blockbuster season whatsoever without any real foreseeable future
of movie theaters coming back to what they are, and
that the only Loane film that might hold some sort
of theatrical hope. And it's a it's a it's a

(55:12):
Hail Mary. Not because of the film, but because of
the circumstance. Is a film that has very few stars
in it, and it's based on based on an original
ip created by Christopher Nolan called Tenant, and and that
and and and don't get me wrong with Robert Patterson
and stuff like that, but you know they're not It's
not a giant Marvel film. So actually the Marvel DC

(55:36):
and James Bond films were pushed because they were scared.
But they're hoping that Tenant might open. And they're still
talking of like as of this recording. You know it might,
we might, we might hold on to it.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
That's a two hundred million dollar plus gamble theatrically. And
by the way, you have to watch that film theatrically.
That's the way you watch a Christopher Nolan film. You
watch it and I, if at all possible But if
I would have told you all that you was that, Alex,
you're insane, You're insane.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
Put the bottle down, Alex, come on exactly.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
But that's the world we live in. And I've been
and you know, I've been saying this for a while,
that Rome is burning. Uh and the coronavirus, unfortunately, has
added a lot of gasoline to that fire in our industry,
and it's gonna It's never gonna die, but it will shift,
and us as filmmakers need to shift with it, need
to pivot, need to figure out new ways to make

(56:31):
this work and use the new technology at our disposal
that we can use to empower us little instead of
defeating us. So, to go back to what you were saying,
as far as aggregators are concerned, I'm not sure that
it makes financial sense to go with an aggregator for
your film. And I'll tell you why, because if you're

(56:52):
spending money to get on iTunes.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
For tivod no, never, I never do iTunes.

Speaker 4 (56:58):
Okay, So for a film like this, there's so little
what I've heard, there's so little return on investment. I'm
not gonna spend a grand and a half to make
twenty four.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Dollars correct exactly, So, so iTunes.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
You're not gonna well, first and foremost, t VOD as
a general statement is pretty much a dead. It's dead
for independent filmmakers unless you could drive traffic. Unless you
could drive tremendous amount of traffic to those spaces, then
you can make it. But being found organically yet not
not it's gonna happen. So iTunes, Google Play, Fandango and

(57:31):
those kind of TVOD places not worth it. Amazon, you
could upload yourself. It will take a lot longer if
you upload it yourself, other than if you would have
went with, you know, another a distribution company or an aggregator.
But you could have do it yourself, and they do
take a big chunk, but they are the biggest marketplace

(57:52):
where everybody's on it and everybody's comfortable hitting that that
that rental. If you're gonna put it on evod, I
would put it up for ninety nine cents because it's
better than the three cents you're going to get per
hour screened on Amazon Prime. So that would be my suggestion.

(58:12):
Don't spend three to four five thousand dollars with an
aggregator to get them all all these platforms, because that's
a mistake that a lot of filmmakers make, and you
really should try to focus your energies as much as
you can on one major platform, if at all possible,
And I think Amazon will probably be the best bet
for you if you can find a way to get
on AVOD, that's where I think your money's going to

(58:34):
be made. And I think AVOD is right now as
of this recording. AVOD is where the money is. And
I agree, like to b TV, to b Pluto, Peacock
is coming out, there's so many of these these AVOD
platforms coming out where that's the only place people are
making money right now. Six months, I have no idea.

(58:57):
In the year, I have no idea, But right now
that's where money's made. Like when I released my first feature,
I sold it to Hulu. That's not possible now, not
possible now. So I actually sold it to China through
foreign distributor not possible now, not possible now. So there's
moments of time that things are available, Like there was

(59:18):
a moment for Tivot in twenty ten, eleven, twelve thirteen,
Tivod was killed. It was killing it, s FOD was
nah and there was no AVOD, then s FOD started
picking up and so on. You might, and this is
a big mit, you might want to talk to a
good qualified producer's rep to see if they can pitch

(59:40):
it to a Netflix or a streaming platform and see
if they would take it, take it on. I actually
will Glenn Reynolds and Sebastian toward as both of them
have been on the show. They're both really good producers
reps who actually do what they say they can do,
and they actually care about filmmakers. It might be a possibility.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
No, they don't exist.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
and now back to the show. I know they're they're unicorns.
They're actually unicorns in the space, but that might be
a possibility as well. Again, it's a conversation. It's a conversation.
It is not again, I guarantee it's a conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
It's it's worth happening.

Speaker 4 (01:00:25):
I did speak with a couple of producers reps and
they just really turn like in your other job, do
you sell cars?

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Yeah? Really slick and slimy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Yeah. Most producers reps, most sales agents, you know a
lot of them are very predatory and a lot of
them are very slick. Oh yeah, I can get you this,
so I can get you that, and I could do this,
and I could do that, and like, you know, look, guys,
do you believe you can make some money with this film?
Make a freaking phone call submitted to Netflix. If you
make it, we're gonna cut. We'll cut, We'll cut the deal,
all right. If not, forget it, Yeah, moving on. You

(01:00:57):
know that's what I need you for. If you can
make it happen, great, let's cut a deal. If not,
I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of money for
one platform, you know, or this or that. It's just
not that kind of film. But those are some of
the avenues I think you can go down. But listen, man,
I appreciate Jeff that you've come on and talk so

(01:01:17):
freely about this process. It is a rarity I do.
Anytime filmmakers want to do this, I generally, if it's
a good story, I definitely want to bring them on
the show. Because I've had a few of these bad
distribution story kind of situations on the show and they're
very popular. People love them, and I think it's a
real good service to the community to actually hear people

(01:01:39):
who are in the trenches going through it, figuring it out.
But what I love about you is that that was
one point oh. Release one point oh. Now you're planning
release two point oh, which is a whole other world.
And please let me know what happens with release two
point oh. I'd love to hear what happens. How you're
able to generate revenue. I think you have a lot
of potential with this film. There's a lot of money

(01:02:01):
that could be made, and it could help a lot
of people to watching this inspirational wise and and things.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
And and that's the goal, turning a loss into a win.
And these are all I think losses are real. They're
teachable moments and to lean into it because I was
kind of part of me struggle do I really want
to release this to the world.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
And say, hey, I failed.

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):
But the community has been really supportive and and I
have to give a shout out. You know who kind
of inspired this was a guest you had on your show, Naomi.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Yes McDougall jones right her.

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
Bite Me film, and she did the whole cross country
tour and she's amazing. She cut an incredible YouTube series
which I implore every filmmaker to watch her little Her road
Trip series.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
It is available. It's available on Indie Film Muscle TV.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
Oh wonderful. Watch it. You'll learn a ton and maybe
it'll light a fire under you.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Yeah, she was great, try something new, and she interviewed
a couple of filmmakers who then I brought on as well,
who had a horrible distribution deal as well, and they
actually were like, they were brutal. They just like, this
is the company and this is what they did to me,
and they haven't paid to me, so screw them. And
this is don't say I'm like, okay, all right, let's

(01:03:17):
do this.

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
How do you really feel? But that's so important and
to your audience.

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
I just want to follow up with thank you for
posting the manifesto, but to let everyone know if they
actually make it through that and they're still standing, we
want to continue the educational process and offer a free course.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:03:36):
That's where I teamed up with Rob Hardy, your buddy,
and for people who watched the video, they could opt
in and we were like delivering over an hour and
a half of free content to arm people with the
right steps to find a niche and market to them directly.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
That's awesome, that's totally free.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Yeah, I'll put it. I'll put all that in the
show notes without questions. Now, what's next? What's next for you?

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
So two days after the lockdown orders came and you're
in LA.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
You remember those texts the mayor sent out.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
I'm still getting I'm still getting text about the riots, sir.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
So oh right, the curfew.

Speaker 4 (01:04:10):
Oh we're cutting it close, we have, but we better
wrap this up and shut the shades. But uh, I
had met a guy at a party in a couple
of months earlier. And this party I only found out
the next day on Facebook. It was a Who's who
a former child stars, like every child actor was at
this party. It was a birthday party for a guy
I used to go to a junior high with and

(01:04:31):
he actually was a pretty big child star, Keith Coogan.
His grandpa was Jackie Coogan. He was okay, he was
in Adventures in Babysitting to Mom, the Babysitters Dead Toy,
so every eighties TV show. So I contact this guy
who hosted the party, who happened to be a screenwriter,
and said, hey, Ryan, we're.

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
Not doing anything. Now, let's do something.

Speaker 4 (01:04:53):
Wacky and creative. Let's come up with a show that
we could, you know, put child actors in and shoot
it all on Zoom. So we came up with the
first kind of scripted Zoom comedy. It's called The Quarantine Bunch.
And we've got like six former child stars on here,
even Ted Lanes from The Love Boat Isaac he makes
an appearance, and some other guest stars, and it's a

(01:05:15):
who the premise is all these child stars, you know
the reputation.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
They're all a little yeah yeah crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):
That's callfaul. Thanks you you said it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:24):
So they used to have a support group where they
met in person, but since the Quarantine now they have
all their meetings on Zoom where everyone could tune into
their drama. So the Quarantine Bunch was born, and it's
a fun little show. But it just shows the necessity
of being able to pivot when you can no longer
produce content in a way you're used to. We have
to quickly turn on a dime and channel our creativity

(01:05:47):
in another format.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
In well, first of all, you had me at support
group now, but like, and this is something that filmmakers
of today don't understand, is that you know, when you
and I were coming up. Everything was pretty well established,
like things really hadn't changed in I mean occasional little things.
Here VHS showed up and kind of threw a little

(01:06:10):
monkey wrench in right. Then then DVD showed up.

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
Cable.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Remember cable was.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
Gonna knock everything out, Channel Select TV.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Yeah, all this, so there's things and then you know,
but then it's once it once Netflix showed up in
OA in the in the streaming space, not in the
other space, in the DVD rental space, but in the
streaming space. Everything's accelerated so quickly that the marketplace, the technology,

(01:06:39):
everything has changed so much prior to the nineties. Really,
I mean when I went to when I went to college,
I learned on a flatbed, but I also learned on
that Sony and the CMX thirty six hundred. Let's let's
start dating myself the Grass Valley as well. But then
I used the now this is for the for the
old folks, listen, the montage as my editing. Yes, the montage.

(01:07:06):
The montage was the nonlinear editing system I learned on,
which was on Windows three one one. And then I
would take the floppy and walk it over to the
CMX thirty six hundred, plug it in and try to
get that EDL to work, which it never did.

Speaker 3 (01:07:23):
Good luck, it never did.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
But then by the time I graduated DV Mini, DV
started showing up, and then HD started showing up, and
then Avid showed up, and then every so it was
kind of like it was just weird. I was right
in the middle of the shift, so a lot of
the stuff I learned in school was pretty much useless.
Like I know what time code is, I know what

(01:07:45):
drop frame is. You know, all this kind of stuff
that I needed back then, beta's SP's and digi beta's
and all that stuff. I mean, all that kind of
crazy Oh, titles, Camember.

Speaker 4 (01:07:57):
My wife, movie trailers, movie getting and the young bucks
who come in there when they kicked back a spot
because it wasn't QC properly.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
And then they come to my wife and say, what's
this thing called titles?

Speaker 4 (01:08:11):
Aren't the titles safe already because they're on a screen,
nothing's threatening them.

Speaker 3 (01:08:16):
Oh my god, yeah, these little things.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
But but then but now yeah, no, no, But then,
but then you have to pivot because things started changing
so rapidly. You know, I went from an AVID editor
to a final cut editor because I couldn't find any
work as an avid editor in my market, because everybody
started using final cut, because everyone started all these in
house agencies and in house production company started buying final

(01:08:39):
cuts because it was more affordable. So I learned that.
Then I jumped into color, Then I jumped into post supervising.
Then I was directing, you know, not just commercials, but
other things. So it was just this constant pivoting and
shifting where if you you're like, oh, I'm only going
to make my movie this way and I'm going to
get it out this way, you're done. You've got to pivot.
You've got to be able to change, and you.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Have to continue to evolve. If you don't keep evolving,
you start devolving, and then you do a circular spiral
back into the earth from where you came. And I
think for a lot of filmmakers, the seed is planneted.
You're a movie guy, the seed is planned. Early on,
when we went into the theater, we were misrized by
the flicker, the twenty four frames per second flicker of

(01:09:20):
dreams on the screen. And we love these icons our
film heroes, and a lot of filmmakers still think that's
the only way they can produce their craft, their art
is through the template that their icons used.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
Correct, and that doesn't I remember, I was, I remember
I was coming up, and I just in two thousand
and five, I released the DVD that I sold to
filmmakers about how I made a movie a short film.
Back then, and in two thousand and five, there was
no online education. There was no educational products for independent filmmakers.
I know it's hard to believe, but there was none.

(01:09:56):
and now back to the show. And I decided at
that point, and I made one hundred thousand dollars off
of a short film and we sold five thousand units,
and we did a lot of great stuff back then.
But I was if you go back to YouTube, I

(01:10:17):
actually have the first tutorials filmmaking tutorials up on YouTube.
It's still there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
Oh that's awesome, and.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
I but I, uh no, it's actually really fun. They're fun.
I mean they're an SD and there. H yeah. I look,
I looked so much better than I did now. But
but the problem, the point is that I decided not
to keep going down that educational route. One, because no
one knew what YouTube was going to be, and no
one knew what the whole I didn't see that much ahead.

(01:10:46):
But secondly, I said, well, Spielberg never did this, why
should I? Scorseseing never did this. I'm not gonna like,
I don't I'm not going to be an educator. I'm
not going to go down this road or do something
else that my icons, my my idols didn't do. And
you can't think that way. You've got to think about
what's new, what's the space, what's the technology, what are
the platforms, How can I get my message out? How

(01:11:08):
can I move my career forward. When I jumped into
podcasting five years ago, there was a lot of podcasts
out there, but not nearly as many as there are now.
It's in the filmmaking space. Now it's everybody has a
filmmaking podcast. But I'm one of the few that have stayed.
I'm one of the few that survived these last five
years where a lot of my contemporaries decided to just

(01:11:28):
you know leave. But it's because I found that niche.
I was like, oh, well, there's somewhere here I can
make some noise here, as opposed to jumping onto YouTube
and trying to do it there. So it's always about pivoting.
It's always about shifting and adjusting and putting more tools
in that toolbox.

Speaker 4 (01:11:45):
And staying persistent. And I think that's really the foundation
of your success, is you remain vigilant and persistent and
where most don't. Once again we come back to the
views conundrum, where it's tough to create content these there's
a lot of competition. There's so much noise out there,
signal to noise, Oh my god, how do you pierce
through it? And it is only through consistent creative output,

(01:12:09):
And that's a lot of work to feed the beast.
But then when you don't get the views, the social proof,
I mean, it's easy to turn tail and say, you
know what, I put eight videos up, they didn't hit.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
I'm going home. I'm trying something new.

Speaker 4 (01:12:21):
So to stick with it and get over the hump
like you did with your podcast. That's really the formula
for success show. Just digging down, just showing up is
half the battle.

Speaker 3 (01:12:35):
One hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (01:12:36):
And you don't have to be perfect, don't wait until
you have it all, just you learn as you go,
but keep producinglutely building your library.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Absolutely no question. Now I'm gonna ask you, if you
get a question to asked all my guests, what advice
would you give a filmmaker wanted to break into the
business today.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
I'd say, really explore a good trade school.

Speaker 4 (01:12:54):
I mean, refrigerators always need repairing, plumbers or in demand
during this time, toilets, boat engines, oh, boatings to get
the hell out out of the country.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
Don't.

Speaker 4 (01:13:07):
But but if you have to, if you're so moved
by your inner child to pick up a camera, I mean,
really stay sober about this big career choice and make
really smart decisions. Don't give all your money to a
school with the promise that they're going to arm you

(01:13:28):
with the tools and the career possibilities, because they won't.
You don't need anyone but yourself in an internet connection
to be a self taught success story. So don't spend
money on a film school. I'm sorry that pisses off
a lot of people who are still in debt to
their film schools. But you don't need that static anymore
because you've got the only tool you need to start creating.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
Oh no, Yeah, there's so much, so much education out there,
either free or even paid at a much much more
affordable rate than it is to go to a film school, which, honestly,
when you start film school, if you there for four years,
do you think everything you're learning is going to be
even up to date by the time you're out, Like,
it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 4 (01:14:08):
I mean, journalism schools up to three years ago, they
still were focusing heavily on print. I mean, hello, this
is a sign of the times calling it's twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (01:14:18):
Maybe you've heard.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
Yeah, it's it's.

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
A disservice, they really, I mean it's such a disservice
because then you put someone in a vice script, an
economic vice script. Oh, you give them relevant information and
you get them on the hook for the next twenty
years to pay you for information that won't produce a
dime in their pocket. That pisss me off, it does.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
It's yeah, I mean, it's all about ROI.

Speaker 3 (01:14:41):
Yeah, and you have to stay focused on that. And
some the peerists will say, oh no, but I'm an artist.
I fix my beret. I can't focus on the money.

Speaker 4 (01:14:50):
But if you don't focus on the money, you'll never
have the backing to create your art and buy your berets.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
So there's a balance and you're monocle. Don't forget the monocle.
Oh the monocle, sir, And let me ask you. I
went to film school, I went to a trade school,
I went to full sale and my education was fairly
affordable at the time. Ask me how many times I've
shown my degree or have been asked for my degree?

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
Alex, how many times have you shown?

Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
Never? Once has anyone asked me where did you go
to school? Let me see your degree? What are your qualification?
Where they just go? Can you do the job and
what I hire you to do? Do you have a
real do you have a resume? Do you have references?
That's all I care about. We are carnies, and the
sooner people understand that we're high tech carnies. That's what

(01:15:41):
the film industry is built on. High tech carnees who
either are in posts in a closet like I was
for many years, or on set directing or on set
you know, doing other jobs. You are a carne in
one way shape of high tech carnee. And in the
Carney world they don't care about credentials.

Speaker 4 (01:15:59):
No, But in the Carner world it's all about your game.
It has to stop someone for a second, catch an eye,
hook a heart, grab someone, and then it's your pattern
and you have to bring something very different that someone
else in that marketplace can't bring. So once again, it's
really getting in touch with your unique sorry for the cliche,
unique value offering to the world, and you can't be
scared off by maybe going down a different path. It's

(01:16:23):
so important to stand out these days and have the
courage to be your unique self because.

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
The market wants that.

Speaker 4 (01:16:29):
I mean, we're in this era of authenticity and authentic
storytelling is a currency, so lean into that. I think
that's what the market really wants more of these days.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
It's the only value.

Speaker 3 (01:16:40):
One more tip.

Speaker 4 (01:16:42):
This episode's going on three hours, but I thank you
Skype for not shutting the servers down. Another tip for
young filmmakers, and this really helped me, especially if you're
thinking about going into documentary. I learned so much of
every facet of the process by working in TV news
because you have to be a one man band, and
it may not it may be cause an eye roll. Oh,

(01:17:04):
I don't want to tell those kinds of stories. You
know you're not there for that. You eventually will tell
the stories you want to tell. But you learn every
facet of the technical process and you become very quick,
and that is really key. I don't want filmmakers laboring
for five years. There's zero ROI if you spend five
years on a project, you need to turn your your
your your productions around much quicker and spend less money

(01:17:26):
on them.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
Yeah. Yeah, like you made your you made your film
for fifteen thousand dollars and that's not that's doable because
of your tools and the toolbox you've put over the.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
Years one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
Or also if you want to have to pay people
to do your jobs and you just be the artist,
don't forget if you were just the artist and you
had your beret, that's a one hundred fifty two than
two hundred fifty thousand dollars job film. And same thing
goes with me with my last film. I spent around
three thousand dollars making my feature. But it was but
it was a you know, it was a different ballgame,
but it was. I just did a lot of it

(01:17:58):
myself and hired key people that I and when I
say key, there's three you know other than the actors
and you. But I did that because I have twenty
odd years under my belt that I have a lot
of tools on my toolbox and I carried a lot
of that weight to my own shoulders. If not, that
movie costs you know, one hundred thousand bucks. You know,
if I do it right.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
There's no way to get that back.

Speaker 4 (01:18:19):
As indie filmmakers, where a lot of us are, you
really have to to learn the craft so you can
perform at all levels of it and not rely on others.
And we know people older filmmakers who still bring on
a DP a sound version and they have to hire
a crew of five, which maybe you and I can
single handedly.

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
Do correct, correct, And it's all just different and try.
I think the generation coming up behind us and behind them,
they're very self sufficient and they're handling.

Speaker 3 (01:18:48):
Definitely, and that's exciting. That is exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
Yes, Now, what is the lesson that took you the
longest to learn, whether in the film business or in life.

Speaker 4 (01:19:01):
This sounds really crappy, it's it's multifaceted.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
and now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:19:16):
Nobody gives a damn absolutely about your film. They don't
or you.

Speaker 4 (01:19:21):
It's the fun and that is it's liberating once you
can lean into that zero expectations from the world or
your audience, and.

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
It's on us to.

Speaker 4 (01:19:33):
Help people care about something that is important to us.
And you can find a common ground to where people
will lean in a little if you're offering them something
of value. But also, you're not a slave to what
the market thinks of your work. If this, if this
project causes you joy while you're creating it, Wow, that
is one hundred percent ROI. Your happiness during the creation

(01:19:57):
process is huge that can never be discounted.

Speaker 3 (01:20:00):
And we forget that once we labor for a year
or two, we put it online and it just flops,
and we think, because we got twelve hundred and fifty
three views, it's a failure, But we forget how much,
you know, fun we had and how much we learned
during the process of making it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:16):
Yes, without question, great answer. And three of your favorite
films of all time?

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
I knew you're gonna ask that. Uh, Honestly, I'm not
a real film guy.

Speaker 4 (01:20:28):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
Three of your favorite documentaries? Documentaries?

Speaker 3 (01:20:32):
Okay, I do have some favorite. My favorite film is Airplane.

Speaker 4 (01:20:35):
Oh no, I don't know if anyone's ever given you
that answer, Oh, has.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
It's been on the show. Really, you could turn on
airplane right now and piss yourself. It's so funny. I
picked the wrong data, start sniff and glue. I mean
it's just so good.

Speaker 3 (01:20:50):
You ever been in a cockpit? You ever seen a
grown man naked?

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
You spent any time? You like watching Barbaria? Do you
like watching Barbarian films? Johnny, I've ever seen? Have you
spent any time at Turkus? And it just smoke.

Speaker 4 (01:21:03):
And there's easter eggs throughout that You could watch it
like ten times and you'll find something new to last
and it's I Actually I sat on the plane next
to we were going to Beijing for a project, next
to one of the I'm blanking on.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
Who are the two guys?

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
Jay Is Abrams Abrams Abrams and Sucker Sucker Sucker Zuckerman.

Speaker 3 (01:21:26):
I sat next to Jerry hilarious guy. But uh, I
mean I love Quirky. I mean there's a guy.

Speaker 4 (01:21:35):
I wrote this guy's name down because I love Stephen Conrad.
He on the TV's The Perpetual Grace, The Patriot on Amazon.
He did a Secret Life of Walter Mitty. Have you
heard I love Secret Left film I love quirky, just different.

Speaker 2 (01:21:54):
Fair enough. Now, where can people find you in your work.

Speaker 3 (01:21:59):
As if they want to after this?

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
If anyone's still listening one I.

Speaker 3 (01:22:05):
Don't know, go to.

Speaker 4 (01:22:09):
Movie marketingmakeover dot com. That's how you can get this
free course. You could find me there. I mean, I
don't know, you can find oh. I have a company,
by the way, I've only had it for like twenty
five years, but I have a production company called Content
Media Group here in Los Angeles, so you could find
me there too. I love you know, opening an ear

(01:22:29):
to the up and coming generation of filmmakers, So feel
free to reach out with any questions. But we're all
here to support each other and to keep indie filmmaking
alive into the future.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Amen, Brother, preach, sir, preach, preach Yes, Amen sir, Amen,
Amen passed the plate. Jeff, thank you so much for
being on the show Man. I really appreciate it, and
thank you for being so honest and raw about your experience.
Thank you for allowing me to beat it up a
little bit for the scope of education of our audience.

(01:23:00):
I do truly appreciate it, because I think we do
learn much more from our mistakes than we do from
our victories, as I have put my mistakes out there
in many, many ways, many times in my books, everywhere else.
But I think it's really great of you. So thank
you again for everything you've done, and good luck to
you with Launch two point zero.

Speaker 4 (01:23:21):
And thank you for keeping us all awake to the
possibilities of what we can become as z Indie filmmakers. Alex,
thank you for building this great community.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
I want to thank Jeff for coming on the show,
not only dropping major, major knowledge bombs on the Trive,
but for being so transparent and open about his successes
and his failures going through this journey of self distributing
his film. Self distribution, guys, is no joke. If you
are going to self distribute your film, you really have

(01:23:51):
to be on your a game. The higher the budget
of your film, the tougher it's going to be to
recoup your money intoday's world. Try to keep those budgets
as low as possible, but the higher that budget goes,
the better You have to execute your plan, and you
have to have a plan in the first place before
you try to self distribute it. If you plan on

(01:24:12):
just putting your movie out there on iTunes and Amazon
and Google Play and YouTube, and you expect people to
find your movie and that's how you're going to make
your money back. In self distribution, I promise you you
will more and likely fail because that is not an
option anymore in today's world. So I talk all about
distribution and a lot of the pitfalls of distribution and

(01:24:36):
what you can do to actually generate revenue with your
film in my best selling book, Rise of the Film Entrepreneur,
which of course you can get at filmbizbook dot com. Now,
if you want to get links to anything we talked
about in this episode, head over to pullaproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Forward slash for sixteen. Thank you so much for listening, guys,

(01:24:57):
As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk
to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
Screenwriting dot tv.

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