May 1, 2025 • 48 mins
Sean Mullin is an award-winning filmmaker. His critically-acclaimed feature film debut as a writer/director — Amira & Sam — won the top prize at numerous festivals and was distributed theatrically by Drafthouse Films. He’s the co-writer/co-producer of the film, Semper Fi – alongside Oscar-nominated director Henry-Alex Rubin (Murderball) and Oscar-nominated producer David Lancaster (Whiplash). Lionsgate released the film theatrically in 2019. He’s the writer/director of a feature-length documentary – Kings of Beer – about the world’s most intense brewmaster competition, which was released theatrically in 2019. He’s the writer/director of It Ain’t Over - a feature-length documentary about baseball legend, Yogi Berra – which will be released in 2022.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifagpodcastnetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, episode number four seventeen eight.
Ain't over till it's over.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yogiberra broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when
we really should be working on that next draft. It's
the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business
of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble
host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof
Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script
Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are
(00:55):
and the goals of the project you are, So we
actually break it down by three categories, micro budget, indie film,
market and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage
from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when
your movie is going to be done for one hundred
thousand dollars and we wanted to focus on that At
Bulletproof script coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA,
(01:16):
w MEE, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist,
and many many more. So if you need your screenplay
or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over
to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, guys, continuing with our Tribeca
coverage this week, we have on the show writer director
(01:38):
Sean Mullen, who is the director of the insanely good
new documentary on the great late Yogi Berra eight Ain't
Over Now. Sean and I talk about his hustle for
close to a decade to get off the ground as
a writer director, getting his projects made, how he was
(02:00):
able to get his first independent romantic comedy off the
ground which went on to do amazing business and win
a ton of awards and really launch his career, and
how he's been working in documentaries lately, including the great
new film he has it Ain't Over. I had a
chance to watch it, and my god, it truly touched
(02:21):
me to my core. It is a wonderful, wonderful film,
and this conversation really is chock full of amazing nuggets
for all you filmmakers out there. So without any further ado,
please enjoy my conversation with Sean Mullen. I like to
welcome to the show Sean Mullen, Hay and Sean Great.
(02:41):
I'm good man, I'm good man. Thank you so much
for coming on the show.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Brother.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
We're going to talk about your new film Eight Ain't Over,
which is of the late great Yogi Bearra and I
learned so much about Yogi watching it, and when your
pitch came across my desk, I was like, well, I
got to see it, got it. I don't want to
wait until it's the mainstream. I got to see it now,
(03:07):
and I fell in love with it, because, as I'm
sure you know, you probably fell in love with it
making it, making you fell in love with Ogi, just making.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Absolutely no, it's definitely a surrogate grandfather through the pandemic
for me and a lot of a lot of folks involved.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So absolutely So before we get before we get down
to your latest project, I wanted to go back back
into the archives. So why in God's green earth did
you want to get into this business?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
You know, I I don't think I wanted to. I
think anybody who wants to. I don't know, I'm a
little skeptical of maybe I don't. Yeah, I don't. You know,
it's I just was more of a I mean, it
just came out of me. You know, I just felt
like it was something. As a kid, I was always
writing short stories. I was always the one kind of
getting people together and telling jokes in the corner class.
(03:54):
I got in trouble a lot obviously for that. And yeah,
I just was always a storyteller. And I got a
k when I was at you know, I ended up
going to West Point for college, and you know, I about
a video camera and I recorded on my buddies telling
stories and all that stuff and so and you know,
I just always wrote and always you know, they just
kind of, I don't know, came came out pretty organically.
So I just feel like it's it's who I am
(04:16):
really instead of like who I wanted to.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Be fair enough, because I agree with you, if somebody
wants to be in this business, you got to look
at them a little especially now that if you've got
some especially if you've got some shrapnel on you, you know,
literally like you know, battle hardened through through this business
it's you look like do you really do you? You
want to go down the like I was. So my
(04:39):
son wants to be in the business, I go run away.
Is there anything else you can do? If there is,
and you love.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
It, I do that. That's I've been teaching on and
off for the best decade, and that's one of the
first lectures I give is like, listen, if you can
live with yourself doing anything else, to do that. But
if you can't, if it's a calling, if it's something
inside you, well then you're screwed. And just you know,
good luck, you know, go go after it. But but
but but but be passionate, don't give up, and work
hard and you know, collaborate and all the things you
(05:07):
need to do, uh to to to create great work.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I call it the beautiful illness because it's, uh it's
it's a thing. You're stuck with it. You can't get
rid of it. It's it's with you for life. No
vaccine is going to get rid of it. And it
can go dormant for decades, but it always I have
I have sixty year olds coming on like I was
a doctor. But what I really want to do is
direct grab a camera, grab grab a camera, doc and
(05:34):
you can finance your own project.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Now I have to ask you, you had a very
interesting start to your you know, your career, if you will,
outside of the film industry, where you were in the military,
and then you were also one of the nine to
eleven first responders. Is that correct? I?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yes, I was in Manhattan. I was the plans officer
for the New York National Guard on the morning of
September eleventh, so uh before before the attacks, we didn't
need too many plans, and then we needed a lot
obviously that day, and so I ended up ended up
spending the first two weeks full time, and then I
was kind of part time for a couple of months.
And then in January of two, it would have been
(06:13):
they they gave me a new title and promoted me
to captain and put me in charge of the soldiers
at ground zero from uh from like January until August
of two, and I was I was in charge of
the bridges and tunnels Manhattan and Ground zero, just making sure,
you know, everything was running smoothly. So and at the
same time though I was, I had I had moved
to New York City, I had left active duty and
(06:34):
moved New York City a couple of years prior and
become a stand up comedian and doing There was a
new theater who had just opened up Our Assistants Brigade
You see Me theater open in ninety nine, and so
I started doing improv theater and I was so it
was kind of a weird double life of working at
ground zero and doing comedy at night. Kind of yeah,
it was.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
It was a shame. It's to even say a joke.
Back then. I remember like, yeah, remember that Saturday Night
Line episode, like.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Absolutely, can we be funny? Kobe be funny?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Now?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Absolutely? Yeah, Juliana, I wonder whatever happened to him? I
but yeah, I mean I don't think I did comedy
for until probably at least October November. You know. It
definitely took about a month or so off and then
it was hard. It was hard time. It was a
crazy time in the city, but very formative time for me.
And then while I was at Ground zero, I applied.
I said, screw it, you know again, this is what
(07:22):
I this is what I'm going to do with my life.
I'm going to be a storyteller. So I applied to
grad school and I got accepted spring of two into
Columbia's MFA program for film directing, and so I left
the military summer o too and went right. I mean,
I was in my uniform one day as last day
I shaved, actually is August fifteen, two thousand and two,
and I and I went to Columbia the next day
for grad school.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I'd imagine that the work that you did at Ground
Zero and also in the military prepared you to be
a director in many ways because of just organizing large
groups of people making sure things get done.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Absolutely, no, no, it's interesting. The first thing some people
will hear, you know, or some people say it me
when I tell them I, you know, I'd gone to
West Point and all that, They'll be like, well, how
are you know? How are you a filmmaker that those
are so completely different worlds, And I, you know, I jokingly,
I was interviewed by a West Point magazine did a
little piece on me after my first film, and I
was kind of tongue in cheeks at West Points the
best film school in the country. I mean, I obviously,
(08:15):
you know, a little bit of a joke there, but
leadership is really what it's all about. And being able
to command your unit and you when you have a
film set, it's the same thing. Creating this environment where
everybody where you're inspiring people. You're not You're not just
telling people what to do, you're actually inspiring them, inspiring them.
And yeah, I mean, I think there's so many parallels
to being a good leader in the military and and
(08:38):
a director who can get the vision across while also
you know, navigating all the obstacles that arise during production.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Now, I was going back into your IMDb and I
went all the way back to the bottom. Okay, where
you get that first PA gig? Yeah, sure, what was
I'm sure, I'm sure you have stories.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
I do. I do. Yeah, the Best Thief in the
World was the name of the film, and I was
a PA. They found out I had come from ground zero,
and so they put me in charge of all walkie talkies.
They put me in charge of anything even remote, all logistics.
I mean I was running all the truck I was
doing everything. I but it was great experience and it
was Yeah, it was the summer that would have been
summer three. That was my first real on set gig.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And I'm assuming, of course you were paid very well handsomely.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, still living off it, actually still living off the interest.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
No, But so what was the biggest lesson you learned
on those days, those first days on set? Because I
remember when I was I was a PA. I was
just absorbing everything, like I just absorbed what the director
was doing, with the production was doing. I worked in
the office, I worked on set. I was just absorbing
as much. What was that lesson THO was the thing
(09:50):
that you learned that first those first few weeks. We'll
be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I think the biggest lesson for me was I had
just finished my first year of grad school, so I'm
on on a real set, and and I had interned
for the production company that produced the movie in the spring,
and so I had been involved in read the script
and got to meet the director and everything. And I
I think for me, the biggest thing I learned is
that I can do this. Like I I pictured myself
in the director's chair and I felt confident. I mean, yes,
(10:26):
I was a PA, uh you know, but I felt
it didn't feel like such a far stretch. It demistified
the process a lot, and it actually got me really
excited that I knew, you know, once I had the uh,
the funds and the ability to make a first feature,
I would be able to I felt confident I'd be
able to pull it off.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Isn't it funny that most PA's are sitting there going
I could do better?
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, yeah, but I could, you know, But I just
it didn't, you know, I didn't feel like it was
beyond the reach of my capabilities. I felt like I
felt good. It felt like vindication, like, Okay, I see
what he's doing. I see he's got a shot list,
I see he's got this stuff, and I can just
talking actors. I know that world too a bit. So yeah,
it was really it was really kind of an exciting
time to be honest with you, and.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
As well as when you're a stand up, because I've
worked with a ton of stand ups throughout my career
and it is, I mean, it is of such an
art form and it's so hard to do good stand up,
like it's one of the hardest things in the planet
to do, honestly, and knowing that you were a stand
up as well, that you got up in front of
that mic and everything, what did you bring from that
(11:33):
to your directing, because there there are some skills that overlap.
But what was it that it was there anything you
brought over?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I think the biggest thing was just being in the moment,
because even you know, being in the moment as the
director is the most important thing, you know. I mean
all this years and years of headache and sweat and
tears and blood that go into like getting a script
in the right place and getting over the attach and
getting the money. All that matters is what's between action
and cut, right, And you've got to really really be
locked in and I'm extremely focused, uh right there in
(12:04):
the moment, and that that's always a stand up till
you had to be. But you also have to react, right,
You have to react to the audience, and you have
to you know, and stand up. And then you know
on set is the director you have to you have
to really listen to what your actors are doing and
see what they're doing. If they're doing great, stay out
of their way. If something's rubbing you the wrong way,
you got to investigate. And and and so I think
that's probably the biggest thing I got was just the
ability to really be in the moment and and receptive
(12:25):
to shifts in tone or you know, anything else that
might throw off the story.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
I mean, to be fair, I mean directing is compromise.
I mean the whole thing is constantly compromised. I always
love I always coming to set with this obscene lips
shot list, and I gave it to the first a
D and the first AD is like, you know, we're
not going to make it. I'm like, I'm there, it's there.
Just in case, Jessica, I know, I have fifty shots
before lunch. I know I got it. I got fifty lunch.
(12:53):
I know we'll get to five case.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I like I add a lot in grad school because
again the military. You know, I'm the six foot five
military guy, you know, so that everybody was like, oh,
he can tell people what to do without being a jerk.
And so so I did a lot of AD and
that really helped. That helped him for my directing as well.
I'm I'm very selective with my shot I'm much more
I'd rather have less set ups and more takes as
kind of my approach.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
So yeah, exactly, Now, how did you get your first film,
Amra and Sam off the ground?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Oh my goodness. Yeah, that's a definitely a long story,
but it was just, you know, it had been about
seven It took me seven years from the time I
got my MFA and six till that time we shot.
We shot summer of thirteen, and it was just a
real struggle. I had written some other script I had
worked as a screenwriter. I had gotten hired to write.
I got hired to write two scripts pretty quickly out
of grad school, one for Britney Spears, which was pretty insane,
(13:47):
working with her for a year, to say the least.
And then another one and another script that couldn't be
more different, a military drama for an Oscar nominated documentarian,
Henry Alex Rubin, who had murder Ball. That documentary murder
Ball I wrote, I wrote. I wrote a screenplay for him.
I actually got hired to write that screenplay when I
was in grad school in five and the film actually
got made fourteen years later. It came out about two
years ago. It's called semper Fi. And so that that script.
(14:10):
So I was working as a screenwriter, I was doing
other things. My creative partner from Columbia, Mike Connors, is
my best friend and we have a crush. Coming out
here in La he Uh. He made a feature that
I produced called Allegiance in twenty twelve, and so producing
his feature, I really started understand you know what it
takes that really, if you're going to make an independent film,
you've you've got to especially you don't come from any means,
(14:32):
you know, you know you've got to you got to
figure you know, figured it out. I mean, last thing
my parents ever you know, bought me was a one
way playing ticket to West Point, you know. So I
I you know, I've been I've been out here huston
trying to scrape together stream together money, uh, to to
get things made. And so yeah, we just I was
able to kind of get I got. I landed with
a great production company. I got very fortunate to be
(14:52):
introduced to a fresh company. Matt Miller and Eric Loachner
at the time have a company called Vanishing Angle and
they actually fast forward there that they are they Vanishing Angle,
Uh is the production company on it ain't over as well?
So uh, these are it's just a good a good
you know, lesson in keeping up relationships. But at the
time it was it was Matt and Eric. Now it's
(15:12):
run by Matt and Natalie. Matt Miller Nellie Metzker. But
but yeah, so we I got you know, we got
the script. I got the script to them, We we
got some money together. We thought we were gonna make it.
For six hundred k. We went out, made offers. We
got Martin Starr attached, which was incredible, was really exciting.
He had never been the lead in a uh in
a in a in a feature film before, let alone romantically,
(15:34):
let alone Special Forces, uh you know, uh, you know
Green Bray, So it was really something different for him,
a real departure. But he he was really drawn in
with the script and I think I was able to
sell him over over a lunch and and and we
got him attached. And then and then we got Dina Shahabi,
which was like this incredible, incredible actress. She was still
(15:55):
in grad school at the time, getting her MFA at
n y U and acting. She's since blown up, she's
doing a million things. And she was just on this
archiv Et one which was a big Netflix thing, but
she did Jack Ryan and all this other stuff. She's
an incredible actress. But this was her first film as well,
so lead role. And yeah, so it was just and
we killed ourselves. You know, and then and then half
the budget, you know, half the money felt you know,
we had We thought we had six hundred, We had
(16:16):
kind of verbal commitments for six hundred, and then by
the time we're shooting, we had three hundred. So I
had to cut another week OSTs, so it was instead
of a four weeks shoot, it was a three week shoot.
And it was just a mess. So we shot ninety
seven pages and sixteen and a half days, which was
a real, real, I mean, a real difficult, difficult thing.
But you know, through all the through all that, through
all that trial and tribulation, we ended up having a
(16:38):
really wonderful premiere and we ended up winning winning awards,
you know, over ten film festivals, and we got you know,
picked up by alamal Draft House. Tim League saw the film,
watched it, bought it and put it out in Alamo
Draft else theaters, which was really exciting. And I got
signed it an agency and all that stuff. So it
kind of it served its purpose of what I needed
to do. And I also just obviously love the film,
(17:00):
so it means love.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It's fascinating that, you know, I'd love to hear this
kind of stories of like we had six hundred. Then
we really only had three hundred. Now you kept going.
Is a testament to your ability and every in your
team's ability to just make it happen, because it's it
happened so often, and so many filmmakers coming up they
don't understand, like when the money drops, that the concept
(17:23):
of the money dropping until it's in the bank, until
it's an escro that you can pull a check. It's nothing, that's.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Nothing, no, no. And when I said we had six hundred,
I think we had ten grand in the bank. I
mean we had six hundred and then then money. And
I mean Meg Jarrett, I mean, she's the real angel
to that project. She was, she was She wrote the
first check. And then actually Peter Soboloff, who ended up
producing being one of the lead producers, Peter and Mike Sobloff,
who were big producers on the Yogi doc. They actually
(17:53):
you know, came in as well and brought some money.
And so it was just nervous and we were raising
money all the way up through prep and it was
a nightmare. I still fine locations. It was a real mess,
but at that point in my life. Also the film
in the film is anything that I would you know,
I think it's too much. I think I cramped too
much into it. I just I was like, this is like,
this is my shot, this is it, this is the
only film I'm you know, this is this is the
only film I'm ever going to get to make. It's
(18:13):
been seven years since grad school and it was really tough.
I was married, had a young daughter. You know, I
was like, what am you know? This is it? This
was my shot and if it and so I just
you know, there was no way I was backing down.
And if it didn't if it didn't succeed, I you know,
I don't know what I would have done.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
As they say, you went up to the plate, sir,
and you you were and you took and you took
a swing. And that's I mean, I've been there, brother,
I've been there that you know, You're like, this is
my shot. I got this has to go. The train
is left is leaving the station on this.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Day, it's over.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Regardless of what happens, we're making something.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
If I'm following, if I'm following Martin and Dina around
with the camera, you know, for you know, a few weeks,
we're going to get something. But everything fill in the place.
I just had incredible, incredible support, and Terry Leonard was
a producer who who really came on and really helped
out with that. And my cinematographer, Danny Vecchioni. Danny also
a cinematographer, worked with him on multiple projects since, and
(19:06):
he shot the Yogi doc. So again, a lot of
a lot of my key creative relationships were started with
that film.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Now, as you know, many times when we're on set
as a director, h there's that day, that moment that
you're losing the sun, camera breaks, the actor can't get
to set. What was that moment for you on that
film and how did you overcome it?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I mean there were there were about thirteen of those
every day, so every day every day. But now, I
mean there's one in particular that Dina still brings up
to because I'm still really close. I mean, Dina and
Martin and I we get together for dinners all the time.
We're really still close, and we really bonded during that
you know, again that's another kind of similarity to the military.
But you bond through the stress, right and.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
And so there was one so we you know the film,
you know, there were different days. You know, we were
averaging over seven pages a day, so that was pretty tricky.
But there was you know, one day where we had
there's a long scene that takes place in a bed,
which is like a ten page scene, so that was
not we got like fourteen like we got like twelve
or thirteen pages that day, which is huge. So but
we had an action day where we had all our
(20:21):
boat scenes and all of our motorcycle scenes, which were
it was just our kind of most logistically challenging day
and we had the weather had to be right and
everything had to just be perfect, like we had didn't
have a minute to spare, and we couldn't. When we
got on the boat to shoot the boat scenes, we
didn't have enough people was myself, DP, producer, sound and
then the actors. That's all we could fit on the boat.
(20:42):
And on one of the take we you know, on
one of the takes it was a perfect take. I
loved everything, but Dina had left on her jean jacket
because she was cold, and so the continuity it wouldn't
cut it all and it was a big medius part
of the scene and I just I almost broke. I mean,
that was the closest I came to breaking, because we
I didn't know if we could do it again, so
we had to circle back around because everything has to match.
(21:04):
And then the weather and then I've got this motorcycles
waiting for us, which We've got to get to them
in time to get the sunset motorcycle shots. And I'm
on the boat, and it's just so that that was
probably the closest I came to kind of breaking. I
mean there's a lot of emotional moments. I mean, the
most emotional moment making it though, was when you know,
when we had told all the agents and everybody there
(21:25):
was a six hundred thousand dollar movie. That's what went
out to Martin and everything like that. And for Martin
started was like, oh, that's not a lot of money.
I can't believe it. And about two thirds of the
way through the shoot, we were shooting the scene at
this mock police station, and Martin pulled me aside, and
we had been through a lot at this point and
he and he said, uh, you know, I don't know
how I go Sean. I just need to tell you,
I don't know how you guys are pulling this off
for six hundred thousand dollars and I just and I
(21:48):
just started I just started crying. I just started crying.
Tears came out of my eyes. And he's like, he's like,
what's up. And he gave me a hug and I said, Martin,
we only have three hundred thousand dollars and uh, and
he hugged me back and he started crying. And we're
just there hugging, crying each other outside this you know,
made up police station. Uh that we you know, you know,
(22:10):
a shot somewhere. So anyways, moments like that, it's it's
a lot. You know, it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Now, is there something that you wish somebody would have
told you at the beginning of your career, piece of
advice or something.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Man, I don't know, you know, I'm not a you know,
I'm not a big like regret guy. I looked back. Guy,
I don't you know. I just I'm never good at that.
So no, I mean, I you know, I'm sure. Yeah,
I mean they could have told me. There are a lot
of things I could.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Like, Hey, you're not going to get You're going to
get through.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah, you're going to three hundred. I mean, you know,
just how you know. I mean I think I was ready.
I think I was prepared for how hard it was.
I mean, I you know, it's just been it's been
very different. It's been very difficult on even personal relationships
and stuff, and you know, it's just been hard. It's
been a hard, hard road.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
And that's the thing that so many young filmmakers coming
up don't understand that this is not an easy path.
This is the the artist path is not an easy path,
but the filmmaker path is even more complex because we
cost so much frust and and we have to convince
other people to come along with us. It's very difficult
to do it all by yourself, if not impossible. So
(23:16):
it's it's it's I always like bringing these kind of
stories up so filmmakers listening, especially young filmmakers, understand what's
ahead of them, not to scare them off, but just
to understand the rules of the game. M hmm.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah. You almost have to just be possessed, you know, yeah,
which is you know, for better or for worse. But uh,
but you need a lot of collaborators, you need a
lot of support, You need people to vouch for you.
That's why I now, you know, vouch for younger filmmakers
and whenever I can and help out. Have had interns
over the years. I've got another one this summer, Giselle Denia.
(23:48):
She's really great and so I'm looking out for her,
trying to you know, trying to pass along any advice
I can. And actually I teach a class I teach.
I teach two classes over at a f I uh
if I the MFA program and directing I teach you
in the fall. It's like a directing one O one.
It's a fourth semester program I teach. In the fall,
I teach a like a directing one O one class
shot shot selection, shot progression, you know, kind of basic
(24:12):
directing class, intro to directing. And then the fourth semester
I teach a class called the first Feature where we
go through and we do case studies of dozens of
first features and you know what works what doesn't. So
I'm doing my best to pass along any knowledge I've
gotten over the years to make things a little bit easier.
But it's it's it's never gonna be easy for anyone.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I mean, you could you could tell somebody don't put
your hand in the fire because it's gonna it's hot.
Until you get into that fire, baby, you don't, you
really don't. You really don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
That's true. That's so true.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Here are all these stories by us old timers sitting around
talking about it. But until you're in the until, as
they say, you're in the ship. Uh, you, you really
won't know what's going on.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Now.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
When I was looking at through your your your filmography,
I'm like, okay, so he did this amazingly wonderful romantic comedy.
How does he go from I know, a romantic comedy
decemp for five, which is completely one eighty you know,
obviously much bigger budget, you know, a bigger cast and
action and different tone. How did you get like as
(25:12):
a as a as a creative and as a director.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, I mean I don't really when I'm looking at stories,
I don't look at genre or you know, even or
even you know, I don't really necessarily pay attention to format.
You know, I'm doing more docs now, but it's really
about to me, it's about character and story, and for
for me, the stories that have resonated the most are
(25:36):
are stories where there's some sort of tension between perception
and reality. So for Amir and Samo's, you know, the
perception and reality of a veteran returning from war and
an a ROCKI refugee. It's this kind of star cross
lever thing where where there there's a tension there. And
with Yogi, I mean with Yogi the perception of Yogi
versus the reality of Yogi. So for me, that's what
I'm really keyed into is every story I've gotten involved
(25:58):
with as some sort of tension between perception in reality.
And so I don't really you know, whether it's a
comedy or drama or doc or scripted. I don't think
any of that matters it to me. It's about kind
of you know, the story and the characters and if
I can undercover some sort of tension that is compelling.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
How did you approach the action because you hadn't at
that point. Have you shot on the action at that point?
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Are you talking about for Semper five?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
So actually, so I did not direct Semper five. So
now you wrote out you wrote no, no, no, no, no,
I'm sorry. Yeah. So Henry Alex Rubin, who did a
murder ball Oh he ended up no, no, he directed it.
So I was just a I was a co writer.
I co wrote the script with him, and then I
was a co producer on as well, because I was involved.
I mean, that's I mean this. I had a one
hundred and fifty five drafts over fourteen years, and not
(26:45):
one dime until until until we until you know, the
first day of shooting.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Really so so at that point you shoot like, kid,
I'm want to be involved a little bit.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Well I tried to. Yeah, I tried to be as
involved as as they'd let me go.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Now, I when I saw your fest and it was
really interesting because I love the way you shoot docs.
It's very interesting, very cinematic. It's you know, there's some
documentarians who shoot it like a documentarian, but you seem
to shoot it like a documentary with a cinematic eye.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
And Kings of Beer are you talking about.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I just had I just had j on the show.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
I'm sorry. Oh yeah, he was Now Jay was amazing. No, No,
that was fun, those little those Yeah, that was my
So my first documentary was called Kings of Beer. And yeah,
I tried to bring again. I brought my DP. It
was a really incredible you know, cinematographer Danny Bechioni and
he he's got a real cinematic eye. And so we
you know, we visually tried, we tried to visually design it,
(27:44):
you know as kind of you know, to make it
look kind of, I don't know, as cinematic as possible.
And yeah, I'm glad. I'm really proud of it. That
was my first doc. And you know, it's also it
got a little bit had a little bit of a
stink on it, I think for some people after the
release because it was financed by Budwiser. So a lot
of people are like, oh, this is propaganda, this is stuff.
But I was like, listen that, you know, I did
(28:05):
get paid the first time my life. I got paid
really well. First I was like, oh, this is what
directors get paid. Oh, this is like this is this
is this? Yeah exactly, I got I mean, and and
so I understood. I understood that end of it. So yeah,
Budweizer did finance it, but they weren't involved, you know,
they weren't super involved with the editor or any of
the stuff. It was really up to me. And I
was really again when after care and when after Perception
(28:26):
Verse Reality, when I again, this is a Kings of
beer is probably one of my best examples where if
I tell you who are the top five groom masters
at Budweiser, you know you probably like, well, first of all,
you didn't know they had multiple Budweisers there's but you
probably like, oh, they're heavy set, white bearded, white dudes
from the Midwest, like just pressing a button Homer Simpson
taking a nap, right, No, I mean it was. It
was the five top brewmasters. There's sixty five brewers around
(28:47):
the world of brew butt, and the top five that
I followed for a year were after American, female, African,
American male h a Chinese man from Wuhan went to
Wuhan actually, which was crazy shot there right before everything happened.
Uh didn't speak any English. And then another woman, UH
from Canada who brews in in New Hampshire. And then
(29:08):
and then this uh, this white dude who was an
army combat bet which which was like really fascinating story.
So you know, again flipping flipping people's perceptions of what
a brew master might be. And and I'm really proud
of the film, and it taught me how when I
was finishing up post with that is when I got
the call from Peter Mike Sobloff saying, Hey, we know
the bears, we've gotten into them. Would you be interested
(29:29):
in directing a documentary about Yogi? And I was like,
I actually my initial reaction was like, well, let me
give me and me because I Yogy seems too perfect,
Like what's the drama, what's the tension? Right? And then
I started reading. I read some books and I went online.
I watched some videos and I was like, oh, oh no,
there there's there's something here. There's there's a real tension
between who he was and who people thought he was.
So I dove in.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah. So so let's let's talk about a and over
because we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. I agreed with you,
Like when I watched the film, I knew Yogi is
a pitch man. I mean I knew him as a
baseball player obviously, but I really didn't understand the impact
(30:13):
that he had had on the Yankees, and not only
on Yankees, on the baseball, on baseball itself, and how
he was not respected as or put in the light
that he should have been in because he was as good,
if not better than any of those guys on those
teams that he won ten championships.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
There's one stat that's and this is just the baseball
people out there, but there's one stat that we didn't
We couldn't show her in the movie. You know, you
have ninety minutes to tell this guy's incredible, you know,
ninety year journey, and so we couldn't fit everything in.
But there are only two players in the history of
baseball to finish in the top four of MVP voting
for seven straight years, and that's really tough to do
because it's really about consistency to finish that high in
(30:54):
MVP voting. I mean, Yogi won three of them, but
he finished in the top four seven years in a row.
The only other player to do it with Mike Trout.
So you know, he's not talked about though in the
same same kind of levels as some of these guys,
and so that was definitely something we were we were
going after it. He's also and again just from the
Yankees legacy, I mean he's the only I mean, if
you look at his life and we kind of we
cover this on the dock, but like you know, he
(31:16):
he came up as a as a as a rookie
and met Babe Ruth and shook hands with Babe and
got to know him a little before Baye passed. And
then and then he he was mentored by DiMaggio, and
then he was a you know, he was a teammate
of Mantle. And then you know, of course he's a coach.
He's a coach, yeah, in Maris of course, and and
Whitey and the whole crew. And then and then fast
(31:37):
forward to he's a he's a coach for you know,
Gidrey and Willie Randolph and and and Reggie and and
then and then he's the manager for Mattingly and then
he mentors you know, uh Jeter and Girardi and that
whole crew too. So there's no Yankee. There's nobody who's
done that. From from shaking hands with Babe Ruth to
mentoring Derek Jeter, there's you know, he really is theol,
(32:00):
the backgbone of the Yankees. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
And then you know that whole fourteen year bit with
him and George Steinbrenner, Yeah, yeah, I mean that that
was insane. Do you know that when I was down
in for Lardo watching spring training, I got George Seinbrenner
to sign my baseball.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Well, there you go, I got it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
He was signing baseballs, and I made it out to
ESPN like even some kids were looking for George slibren.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah. I mean he was an interesting guy. I mean,
you know, I think Bob Costas put it well in
the in the documentary, and he was a polarizing figure.
But but you know, he did love the Yankees, and
he did love Yogi. They had they had obviously a
bit of a falling out. But we were able to
interview George's son, Hal and he was He couldn't have
been more kind and just really wonderful about things he
had to say about Yogi. So it was really nice
(32:44):
to be able to talk to so many wonderful people.
I mean, you saw the interviews. We got some great ones, so.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Oh no, some amazing ones. Yeah, but I have to
ask you, so when when and I've had other people
on the show have tackled large you know, you know,
just kind of like big shadows of people, just massive personalities,
how do you approach someone's legacy like this, Because I
know you were doing it with the help of the family,
so that actually helps obviously that you're not doing it
(33:09):
against the wishes of the family and everything, But how
do you even approach telling that story? I mean the
pressure on you, Like people are going to look at
this documentary. This is gonna be what people go back
and look at about yoga, because there really isn't a
definitive documentary on yogi.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
I mean not yet. I mean there is no there
is June eleventh, Yeah, there will be. No. We were
really proud of it and no, the family was incredible.
Like the biggest concern from day one was to not
make it some sort of like hagiography, some sort of
puff piece, some sort of that's documentaries that just put
their subjects on a pedestal and then I call these
(33:46):
things and this is very I was very upfront with
my producers on day one. I said, I don't want
to do called a Wikipedia doc, a Wiki doc where
it's just like they were born, they did this, they
did that. There's a difference between emotion, right, which is
what I'm after, and information, which is what you can google, right,
And so I I I'm really really it had to
play emotionally. I think it does play. I don't know.
(34:06):
I let you lead if you don't.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Agreed, agreed. I teared up a few times.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and if it doesn't have those
emotional that emotional component to it, I'm not interested in
directing it. So I was very upfront with that from
day once. So it was like, how are we going
to tell the story in a way that is going
to really get to the heart of audiences and so
but at the same time without you know, without it
being you know, just too much of a like I said.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Like a puff piece. You're absolutely right, because some documentaries
are just very informative. They just always like Wikipedia style.
You're right, like the Wiki doc. I know what the concept.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, I just I'm working on two docs right now
to other docks and and and yeah, that's just my
that's my number one thing is what can what can
we offer people that is actually truly cinematic, that is
actually going to engage them in a way emotionally, you know,
and lives right here instead of living up here, you know.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah, and then the whole I did a new Yogi bear.
I knew that whole backstory, but I didn't know how
deep it went. Why he was called Yogi. I was
wondered why he was called like that's obviously not his.
It'sal your name, right right. Yeah, there was one. There
was one piece in the in the documentary that blew
my mind. I just could not believe that that happened
(35:20):
because he's I think he was the first. He caught
the first no hitter in.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
A perfect game. He caught the only game. Yeah he caught. Yeah,
he called. He called all ninety seven pitches. So like
you know, so Larsen was just like locked in, like,
tell me Yogi what to do, and.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
He never and he never called, and he never did.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
He didn't check him off. He didn't check him off
once in ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So he got so then and then yeah, decades later
he makes up it's Yogi Bear to day.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Well you can't.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, yeah, Yankee Stadium.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
You can't. Well it's that, you know. It's the type
thing in a documentary too, where I'm always looking at
where if I were to script it, Oh yeah, it
would the producers would throw it out. They said, this
is ridiculous. And that's when you know, I think you
got a doc that really works, is when there's a
moment that is so unbelievable that you couldn't have scripted
it and that definitely that moment you know, had that,
you know, and it's also a great example of that
(36:09):
information has been out there forever, Like you could have
read that on Wikipedia and you could have read it
and bullets and books. It's a fact that he was
part of these two you know, these two perfect games.
But but until you see it, until you are involved,
until you're experiencing it through everything he had gone through.
That's the difference between again, you know, kind of you know,
a cinema treatment and just a you know, just a
(36:32):
little wiki doc thing.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Now, on a business standpoint, when you know, because I've
studied docs for you know, most of microd I'm a
big fan of docs. But on a business standpoint, it's
I always find it so interesting when filmmakers work on
docs to have a building audience, So especially when it's
a larger than life figure like Yogi. How hard was
(36:54):
it to get the financing to put this whole thing together?
All that because people think like, oh, you're making a
Yogi Barrett Dog. I mean, the money must have just
been rolling in.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Well no, I could listen, listen, that's a whole nother
I mean, you know, I was extremely, extremely fortunate that
from day one. Peter and Mike Soboloff, who were the
first two. They were the ones who put the whole
kind of project together at the very beginning and called
me and asked me to direct. They went out and
raised the budget themselves, I mean, the two of them,
(37:26):
you know, they and I. I mean, I couldn't have
been more fortunate to work with, you know, two more supportive,
you know, you know, just bold, you know, uh producers.
And the first thing that they did, they went out
and you know, they were out while they were out
raising the money. I went and I turned right back
to Vanishing Angle Matt Miller and Natalie Mesker again, who
produced my my first feature of Meir and Sam, you know,
(37:47):
years ago, And I said, hey, would you guys want
to team up with the sobloss Is to be a
good team. They can kind of go out and raise
the money and lead that front. You guys can handle
the production side of it. And then I got my
old editor Julian Robinson from Amir and Sam, who's incredible
editor of the film. Is very well edited, I mean,
and all the archival he had he had to dig
through and all this stuff. So and I got Danny
and my old cinmhotographer. We kind of put the band
(38:08):
back together and and and made it happen. But as
far as raising the money, fortunately, you know, Peter has
really good ties to a lot of folks who are
huge Yankee fans, and he's a big finance guy in
New York, so he was able to, you know, him
and Mike were able to to make it happen somehow.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Right exactly, because I mean, yeah, if you tap into
there's a certain pool in New York.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Yeah, absolutely, no, it was nice. Well, the craziest thing,
the craziest thing is, over the course, over the course
of making this documentary, uh, Peter and Mike have gotten
involved in it are now minority owners in the Yankees actually,
so they actually own a piece of the Yankees too,
which is which is totally totally aside from the dock
just happened. So so that's pretty cool. Yeah. They Yeah,
they're great, they're they're they're a great team.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah. So and and then you've gotten to trybeca obviously.
So what was it like getting that call?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Man, It was wonderful. It felt like the right place,
you know, it just felt like this is where we
this is this is where we wanted to premiere the film,
so we knew it. We knew it. We were hoping
and they called us right away. And they called us
super early, back in like November, like I think November,
you know, way way early. I mean yeah, before they
even closed you know, before they even you know, closed submissions,
(39:18):
and they're like, hey, we want this, we want this,
and uh, we got excited, and then we were able
to get an incredible, incredible you know, if you know
the indie film business, you know you need a great
sales agent. And so we you know, we started at
the top and we took a stab at John Sloss
at Senetic and and he, uh, you know, he flipped
for it and he's been so incredib him and the
whole team of Senetic have been really incredible. So they're
(39:38):
selling it. So that's great. So yeah, I just started
to put all the all the all the pieces together.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Man. I really hope it gets out there because you know,
for for any baseball fan out there, I mean, Yogi's
just I mean, even if you're not a baseball fan,
if you're a certain age, you know who Yogi is.
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show, purely because he did
(40:05):
thousands of commercials. You know, I don't know, yeah, conmersals man,
it was given the doc He's like, I don't know,
I'm doing some it was AFLAC or something like that.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Was like Amtrak, AFLAC. Yeah, he didn't know which one.
It was like, it's one of those. Yeah, I'm getting
a check.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
It's fine.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
But he seemed like such a sweet guy man, and
such an authentic kind of like it. It's one of
those people that you just they don't make souls like
that anymore, Like they truly don't.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
He just I mean, this is what I tell people
about the film. It was a real, real honor and
pleasure to tell a story about someone who just always
did the right thing. He just always did the right thing.
He just that was it. He just at every turn,
whether it was you know, uh, you know, breaking the
color barrier and help you know, helping, you know, befriending
you know, Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby and all these
(40:54):
guys who are coming into the league, who you know, whatever,
just at every turn. It's really the film is really
about a life well lived, and it's broader, you know,
we you know, one of the kind of templated films
we looked at when we were looking at these docks
was the Mister Rogers Dock, you know, had come out
one thing, and that was one of the films that's
that actually sparked the Sobolofs to call me they could
they be cause actually I got the call from them
(41:15):
in July of eighteen, So it was the summer that moved.
This project's be going on four years, you know, And
I got the call in July of eighteen and they
had just seen that doc and they were like, we
need to do something kind of in that vein for Yogi,
and so yeah, just a real I mean, I was
extremely honored, and you know, and and just the fact
that you know, Lindsay's happy with it, the great granddaughter,
(41:36):
she's incredible. She narrates the film and and I'm just
excited for the rest of the bear. The biggest audience
to have seen the film so far has four people,
and we're premiering in a thousand seat theater next Saturday,
So it's gonna be it's gonna be something.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Now. A really important question is, though, did was Jackie
safe you know.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
What's the craziest thing. I mean, you can you know, yeah,
did you like that little piece of the film that
back and forth thought, Oh a lot of fun it was.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
I'm talking about Jackie Robinson's there's a very famous play
at all, a play at home plate, where Yogi thinks
he got him, but Jackie was ruled safe. Jackie, the
great Jackie Robinson, and to his grave.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Oh is he great? He wouldn't never, No, he would never.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Even even when you saw frame by frame. I was
watching it and I'm like, what do you think I
first saw it. When I first saw it, him like, nah,
he's he got him out. Then there was like that
one sequence for the other angle, and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah, that's what's really great about it. So from the
front angle he looks out and then but from the
reverse angle he definitely looks safe. So but he I mean,
it's it's safe. It's great. I mean what it's what's
great about baseball too, right is that? Yeah? That was
Game one of the fifty five series, and it was
a really big deal and Yogi was at his height
and Jackie was you know, I mean, these were these
(42:53):
were characters who were larger than life, you know, and
to have that massive play at home plate in the
steel of home, and who steals home anymore? So it
was just it was a real It was Yeah, it
was really great. But no, if you look at that's
the great thing about it. If you look at U
from one angle, he looks clear, clearly out, and another angle,
you know, he looks safe. So that's great.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Now I'm gonna ask you a couple questions, ask all
my guests, sir, sure, what advice would you give a
filmmaker trying to break into the business today?
Speaker 3 (43:19):
What advice you know? That's uh, you know, start making films,
no matter how how big or small. Just start start shooting.
Start learning learning, learn the craft, Understand what a shot means.
Understand when you're a subjective it means something. When you're objective,
it means something. Learn how to compress, learn how to elaborate,
learn how learn the fundamentals? Uh, you know, just through
(43:41):
you can shoot. You know, one of one of the
classes I teach today if by and I taught at
usc for for a few years before as well, They've
got a great program there, and you know, I I
just would run my students through these like very basic
exercises like character A wants something from character B. And
you know, create a story no dialogue, and just how
(44:01):
do you articulate beats? So just like learning the basics
of like how do shots add up to you know,
an emotional impact, you know, with with an audience. And
so I would I would just say, start shooting, you know,
just on a video came on your phone, on whatever,
Start telling stories, start writing. You know, if you can write,
You've got a leg up as a director. I'll tell
(44:21):
you that. If you can write, you really do, because
nobody's you know, nobody's gonna just give a director a
great script. You know, the great scripts are few and
far between, as we all know, and so nobody's going
to give one to you if you're starting out. So
if you can write, that's great. If you can't write,
find a writer, team up with a writer, co write
with a writer. You know, Adapt to short story. It's
amazing how many first features are adaptations of short stories
(44:44):
or something that exists. So don't be afraid to grab
a piece of material from somewhere else. Tarkowski's you Know,
Iva's Childhood is one of the great all time great
first features. It was an adaptation. So yeah, anyways, just
that'd be my advice, is just to go out and
hold the craft. It's the same thing with acting and
some actors, oh I want to act well, like do
some theater like get learn how to act, like learn
(45:06):
the craft and you know, before you know, you try
to make it big, you know, So that that'd be
my advice.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Now. And what is the lesson that took you the
longest to learn, whether in the film industry or in life.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Well, I'm still I mean, I don't know, man, I'm
still learning. Just uh, the lessons taken me the longest
to learn. Gosh, i'd say, you know that, I don't.
You know, Gosh, that's a good one. You know, I
don't know. I'm still I mean, I think I've learned,
(45:41):
you know, I've just learned so much, you know, I
think just like you know, I guess just how you
know how important relationships really are, relationships and collaborations. I think,
you know, I knew it. I knew it kind of instinctly,
but looking back at the past fifteen years, starting to
see you know, people pop up again again on my
prom and just knowing that, like it's really building this
(46:02):
kind of again to use a you know military term,
you know unit, you know this this this kind of
you know brigade or whatever you want to call it,
of supporters, uh, and and cultivating support from other filmmakers,
but also just you know, financiers and just champ you know,
understanding that it takes a lot of people to believe
(46:24):
in you in order to make it through this, and
being very respectful of that. Anytime anybody does believe in you,
really honor that and be grateful for it. And yeah,
I think that's that's the biggest lesson that I've I've
taken away.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
And three of your favorite films of all time?
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Oh my goodness, three of my favorite films. Well, let's see,
I think, you know, I don't. I don't know if
I have a favorite, but I definitely there are a few.
There's there's a there's a Russian film from nineteen fifty
nine called Ballot of a Soldier, which I think is
probably one of the all time great great films. I
recommend it's also a film not a lot of people
have seen, so I highly recommend tracking that one down
for anyone out there. I love the fifty five movie
(47:06):
Marty Pettetreewsky's Marty is really high up on my list
as well. And then goodness, I mean, I'm oh, man,
I'd say another one I throw out there. I'm a
big yam cheer fans of Rapriz. His first feature is
one of my favorites too. So I don't know, I mean, jeez,
I could you know. I could name I probably about
(47:27):
fifty favorite films, you know, but those are three that
just popped off my head.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Sean. Man, I appreciate you coming on the show, brother.
Congratulations on a great, great film and I look forward
to seeing more stuff from you in the future, brother,
And thank you for bringing Yogi out of the shadows
and showing showing who Yogi really is in your film. Brother.
So I appreciate you, man. Thanks again.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, no, thank you for the time. I really appreciate it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I want to thank Sean so much for coming on
the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tripe today.
Thank you so much, Sean. If you want to get
links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head
over to the show notes Atproofscreenwriting dot TV. Forward Slash
four seventeen. Thank you so much for listening to guys,
as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk
to you soon.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
dot tv.
You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifagpodcastnetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, episode number four seventeen eight.
Ain't over till it's over.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yogiberra broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when
we really should be working on that next draft. It's
the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business
of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble
host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof
Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script
Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are
(00:55):
and the goals of the project you are, So we
actually break it down by three categories, micro budget, indie film,
market and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage
from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when
your movie is going to be done for one hundred
thousand dollars and we wanted to focus on that At
Bulletproof script coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA,
(01:16):
w MEE, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist,
and many many more. So if you need your screenplay
or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over
to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, guys, continuing with our Tribeca
coverage this week, we have on the show writer director
(01:38):
Sean Mullen, who is the director of the insanely good
new documentary on the great late Yogi Berra eight Ain't
Over Now. Sean and I talk about his hustle for
close to a decade to get off the ground as
a writer director, getting his projects made, how he was
(02:00):
able to get his first independent romantic comedy off the
ground which went on to do amazing business and win
a ton of awards and really launch his career, and
how he's been working in documentaries lately, including the great
new film he has it Ain't Over. I had a
chance to watch it, and my god, it truly touched
(02:21):
me to my core. It is a wonderful, wonderful film,
and this conversation really is chock full of amazing nuggets
for all you filmmakers out there. So without any further ado,
please enjoy my conversation with Sean Mullen. I like to
welcome to the show Sean Mullen, Hay and Sean Great.
(02:41):
I'm good man, I'm good man. Thank you so much
for coming on the show.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Brother.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
We're going to talk about your new film Eight Ain't Over,
which is of the late great Yogi Bearra and I
learned so much about Yogi watching it, and when your
pitch came across my desk, I was like, well, I
got to see it, got it. I don't want to
wait until it's the mainstream. I got to see it now,
(03:07):
and I fell in love with it, because, as I'm
sure you know, you probably fell in love with it
making it, making you fell in love with Ogi, just making.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Absolutely no, it's definitely a surrogate grandfather through the pandemic
for me and a lot of a lot of folks involved.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So absolutely So before we get before we get down
to your latest project, I wanted to go back back
into the archives. So why in God's green earth did
you want to get into this business?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
You know, I I don't think I wanted to. I
think anybody who wants to. I don't know, I'm a
little skeptical of maybe I don't. Yeah, I don't. You know,
it's I just was more of a I mean, it
just came out of me. You know, I just felt
like it was something. As a kid, I was always
writing short stories. I was always the one kind of
getting people together and telling jokes in the corner class.
(03:54):
I got in trouble a lot obviously for that. And yeah,
I just was always a storyteller. And I got a
k when I was at you know, I ended up
going to West Point for college, and you know, I about
a video camera and I recorded on my buddies telling
stories and all that stuff and so and you know,
I just always wrote and always you know, they just
kind of, I don't know, came came out pretty organically.
So I just feel like it's it's who I am
(04:16):
really instead of like who I wanted to.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Be fair enough, because I agree with you, if somebody
wants to be in this business, you got to look
at them a little especially now that if you've got
some especially if you've got some shrapnel on you, you know,
literally like you know, battle hardened through through this business
it's you look like do you really do you? You
want to go down the like I was. So my
(04:39):
son wants to be in the business, I go run away.
Is there anything else you can do? If there is,
and you love.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
It, I do that. That's I've been teaching on and
off for the best decade, and that's one of the
first lectures I give is like, listen, if you can
live with yourself doing anything else, to do that. But
if you can't, if it's a calling, if it's something
inside you, well then you're screwed. And just you know,
good luck, you know, go go after it. But but
but but but be passionate, don't give up, and work
hard and you know, collaborate and all the things you
(05:07):
need to do, uh to to to create great work.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I call it the beautiful illness because it's, uh it's
it's a thing. You're stuck with it. You can't get
rid of it. It's it's with you for life. No
vaccine is going to get rid of it. And it
can go dormant for decades, but it always I have
I have sixty year olds coming on like I was
a doctor. But what I really want to do is
direct grab a camera, grab grab a camera, doc and
(05:34):
you can finance your own project.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Now I have to ask you, you had a very
interesting start to your you know, your career, if you will,
outside of the film industry, where you were in the military,
and then you were also one of the nine to
eleven first responders. Is that correct? I?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yes, I was in Manhattan. I was the plans officer
for the New York National Guard on the morning of
September eleventh, so uh before before the attacks, we didn't
need too many plans, and then we needed a lot
obviously that day, and so I ended up ended up
spending the first two weeks full time, and then I
was kind of part time for a couple of months.
And then in January of two, it would have been
(06:13):
they they gave me a new title and promoted me
to captain and put me in charge of the soldiers
at ground zero from uh from like January until August
of two, and I was I was in charge of
the bridges and tunnels Manhattan and Ground zero, just making sure,
you know, everything was running smoothly. So and at the
same time though I was, I had I had moved
to New York City, I had left active duty and
(06:34):
moved New York City a couple of years prior and
become a stand up comedian and doing There was a
new theater who had just opened up Our Assistants Brigade
You see Me theater open in ninety nine, and so
I started doing improv theater and I was so it
was kind of a weird double life of working at
ground zero and doing comedy at night. Kind of yeah,
it was.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
It was a shame. It's to even say a joke.
Back then. I remember like, yeah, remember that Saturday Night
Line episode, like.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Absolutely, can we be funny? Kobe be funny?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Now?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Absolutely? Yeah, Juliana, I wonder whatever happened to him? I
but yeah, I mean I don't think I did comedy
for until probably at least October November. You know. It
definitely took about a month or so off and then
it was hard. It was hard time. It was a
crazy time in the city, but very formative time for me.
And then while I was at Ground zero, I applied.
I said, screw it, you know again, this is what
(07:22):
I this is what I'm going to do with my life.
I'm going to be a storyteller. So I applied to
grad school and I got accepted spring of two into
Columbia's MFA program for film directing, and so I left
the military summer o too and went right. I mean,
I was in my uniform one day as last day
I shaved, actually is August fifteen, two thousand and two,
and I and I went to Columbia the next day
for grad school.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I'd imagine that the work that you did at Ground
Zero and also in the military prepared you to be
a director in many ways because of just organizing large
groups of people making sure things get done.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Absolutely, no, no, it's interesting. The first thing some people
will hear, you know, or some people say it me
when I tell them I, you know, I'd gone to
West Point and all that, They'll be like, well, how
are you know? How are you a filmmaker that those
are so completely different worlds, And I, you know, I jokingly,
I was interviewed by a West Point magazine did a
little piece on me after my first film, and I
was kind of tongue in cheeks at West Points the
best film school in the country. I mean, I obviously,
(08:15):
you know, a little bit of a joke there, but
leadership is really what it's all about. And being able
to command your unit and you when you have a
film set, it's the same thing. Creating this environment where
everybody where you're inspiring people. You're not You're not just
telling people what to do, you're actually inspiring them, inspiring them.
And yeah, I mean, I think there's so many parallels
to being a good leader in the military and and
(08:38):
a director who can get the vision across while also
you know, navigating all the obstacles that arise during production.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Now, I was going back into your IMDb and I
went all the way back to the bottom. Okay, where
you get that first PA gig? Yeah, sure, what was
I'm sure, I'm sure you have stories.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
I do. I do. Yeah, the Best Thief in the
World was the name of the film, and I was
a PA. They found out I had come from ground zero,
and so they put me in charge of all walkie talkies.
They put me in charge of anything even remote, all logistics.
I mean I was running all the truck I was
doing everything. I but it was great experience and it
was Yeah, it was the summer that would have been
summer three. That was my first real on set gig.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And I'm assuming, of course you were paid very well handsomely.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, still living off it, actually still living off the interest.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
No, But so what was the biggest lesson you learned
on those days, those first days on set? Because I
remember when I was I was a PA. I was
just absorbing everything, like I just absorbed what the director
was doing, with the production was doing. I worked in
the office, I worked on set. I was just absorbing
as much. What was that lesson THO was the thing
(09:50):
that you learned that first those first few weeks. We'll
be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I think the biggest lesson for me was I had
just finished my first year of grad school, so I'm
on on a real set, and and I had interned
for the production company that produced the movie in the spring,
and so I had been involved in read the script
and got to meet the director and everything. And I
I think for me, the biggest thing I learned is
that I can do this. Like I I pictured myself
in the director's chair and I felt confident. I mean, yes,
(10:26):
I was a PA, uh you know, but I felt
it didn't feel like such a far stretch. It demistified
the process a lot, and it actually got me really
excited that I knew, you know, once I had the uh,
the funds and the ability to make a first feature,
I would be able to I felt confident I'd be
able to pull it off.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Isn't it funny that most PA's are sitting there going
I could do better?
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Yeah, yeah, but I could, you know, But I just
it didn't, you know, I didn't feel like it was
beyond the reach of my capabilities. I felt like I
felt good. It felt like vindication, like, Okay, I see
what he's doing. I see he's got a shot list,
I see he's got this stuff, and I can just
talking actors. I know that world too a bit. So yeah,
it was really it was really kind of an exciting
time to be honest with you, and.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
As well as when you're a stand up, because I've
worked with a ton of stand ups throughout my career
and it is, I mean, it is of such an
art form and it's so hard to do good stand up,
like it's one of the hardest things in the planet
to do, honestly, and knowing that you were a stand
up as well, that you got up in front of
that mic and everything, what did you bring from that
(11:33):
to your directing, because there there are some skills that overlap.
But what was it that it was there anything you
brought over?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I think the biggest thing was just being in the moment,
because even you know, being in the moment as the
director is the most important thing, you know. I mean
all this years and years of headache and sweat and
tears and blood that go into like getting a script
in the right place and getting over the attach and
getting the money. All that matters is what's between action
and cut, right, And you've got to really really be
locked in and I'm extremely focused, uh right there in
(12:04):
the moment, and that that's always a stand up till
you had to be. But you also have to react, right,
You have to react to the audience, and you have
to you know, and stand up. And then you know
on set is the director you have to you have
to really listen to what your actors are doing and
see what they're doing. If they're doing great, stay out
of their way. If something's rubbing you the wrong way,
you got to investigate. And and and so I think
that's probably the biggest thing I got was just the
ability to really be in the moment and and receptive
(12:25):
to shifts in tone or you know, anything else that
might throw off the story.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
I mean, to be fair, I mean directing is compromise.
I mean the whole thing is constantly compromised. I always
love I always coming to set with this obscene lips
shot list, and I gave it to the first a
D and the first AD is like, you know, we're
not going to make it. I'm like, I'm there, it's there.
Just in case, Jessica, I know, I have fifty shots
before lunch. I know I got it. I got fifty lunch.
(12:53):
I know we'll get to five case.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I like I add a lot in grad school because
again the military. You know, I'm the six foot five
military guy, you know, so that everybody was like, oh,
he can tell people what to do without being a jerk.
And so so I did a lot of AD and
that really helped. That helped him for my directing as well.
I'm I'm very selective with my shot I'm much more
I'd rather have less set ups and more takes as
kind of my approach.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
So yeah, exactly, Now, how did you get your first film,
Amra and Sam off the ground?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Oh my goodness. Yeah, that's a definitely a long story,
but it was just, you know, it had been about
seven It took me seven years from the time I
got my MFA and six till that time we shot.
We shot summer of thirteen, and it was just a
real struggle. I had written some other script I had
worked as a screenwriter. I had gotten hired to write.
I got hired to write two scripts pretty quickly out
of grad school, one for Britney Spears, which was pretty insane,
(13:47):
working with her for a year, to say the least.
And then another one and another script that couldn't be
more different, a military drama for an Oscar nominated documentarian,
Henry Alex Rubin, who had murder Ball. That documentary murder
Ball I wrote, I wrote. I wrote a screenplay for him.
I actually got hired to write that screenplay when I
was in grad school in five and the film actually
got made fourteen years later. It came out about two
years ago. It's called semper Fi. And so that that script.
(14:10):
So I was working as a screenwriter, I was doing
other things. My creative partner from Columbia, Mike Connors, is
my best friend and we have a crush. Coming out
here in La he Uh. He made a feature that
I produced called Allegiance in twenty twelve, and so producing
his feature, I really started understand you know what it
takes that really, if you're going to make an independent film,
you've you've got to especially you don't come from any means,
(14:32):
you know, you know you've got to you got to
figure you know, figured it out. I mean, last thing
my parents ever you know, bought me was a one
way playing ticket to West Point, you know. So I
I you know, I've been I've been out here huston
trying to scrape together stream together money, uh, to to
get things made. And so yeah, we just I was
able to kind of get I got. I landed with
a great production company. I got very fortunate to be
(14:52):
introduced to a fresh company. Matt Miller and Eric Loachner
at the time have a company called Vanishing Angle and
they actually fast forward there that they are they Vanishing Angle,
Uh is the production company on it ain't over as well?
So uh, these are it's just a good a good
you know, lesson in keeping up relationships. But at the
time it was it was Matt and Eric. Now it's
(15:12):
run by Matt and Natalie. Matt Miller Nellie Metzker. But
but yeah, so we I got you know, we got
the script. I got the script to them, We we
got some money together. We thought we were gonna make it.
For six hundred k. We went out, made offers. We
got Martin Starr attached, which was incredible, was really exciting.
He had never been the lead in a uh in
a in a in a feature film before, let alone romantically,
(15:34):
let alone Special Forces, uh you know, uh, you know
Green Bray, So it was really something different for him,
a real departure. But he he was really drawn in
with the script and I think I was able to
sell him over over a lunch and and and we
got him attached. And then and then we got Dina Shahabi,
which was like this incredible, incredible actress. She was still
(15:55):
in grad school at the time, getting her MFA at
n y U and acting. She's since blown up, she's
doing a million things. And she was just on this
archiv Et one which was a big Netflix thing, but
she did Jack Ryan and all this other stuff. She's
an incredible actress. But this was her first film as well,
so lead role. And yeah, so it was just and
we killed ourselves. You know, and then and then half
the budget, you know, half the money felt you know,
we had We thought we had six hundred, We had
(16:16):
kind of verbal commitments for six hundred, and then by
the time we're shooting, we had three hundred. So I
had to cut another week OSTs, so it was instead
of a four weeks shoot, it was a three week shoot.
And it was just a mess. So we shot ninety
seven pages and sixteen and a half days, which was
a real, real, I mean, a real difficult, difficult thing.
But you know, through all the through all that, through
all that trial and tribulation, we ended up having a
(16:38):
really wonderful premiere and we ended up winning winning awards,
you know, over ten film festivals, and we got you know,
picked up by alamal Draft House. Tim League saw the film,
watched it, bought it and put it out in Alamo
Draft else theaters, which was really exciting. And I got
signed it an agency and all that stuff. So it
kind of it served its purpose of what I needed
to do. And I also just obviously love the film,
(17:00):
so it means love.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It's fascinating that, you know, I'd love to hear this
kind of stories of like we had six hundred. Then
we really only had three hundred. Now you kept going.
Is a testament to your ability and every in your
team's ability to just make it happen, because it's it
happened so often, and so many filmmakers coming up they
don't understand, like when the money drops, that the concept
(17:23):
of the money dropping until it's in the bank, until
it's an escro that you can pull a check. It's nothing, that's.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Nothing, no, no. And when I said we had six hundred,
I think we had ten grand in the bank. I
mean we had six hundred and then then money. And
I mean Meg Jarrett, I mean, she's the real angel
to that project. She was, she was She wrote the
first check. And then actually Peter Soboloff, who ended up
producing being one of the lead producers, Peter and Mike Sobloff,
who were big producers on the Yogi doc. They actually
(17:53):
you know, came in as well and brought some money.
And so it was just nervous and we were raising
money all the way up through prep and it was
a nightmare. I still fine locations. It was a real mess,
but at that point in my life. Also the film
in the film is anything that I would you know,
I think it's too much. I think I cramped too
much into it. I just I was like, this is like,
this is my shot, this is it, this is the
only film I'm you know, this is this is the
only film I'm ever going to get to make. It's
(18:13):
been seven years since grad school and it was really tough.
I was married, had a young daughter. You know, I
was like, what am you know? This is it? This
was my shot and if it and so I just
you know, there was no way I was backing down.
And if it didn't if it didn't succeed, I you know,
I don't know what I would have done.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
As they say, you went up to the plate, sir,
and you you were and you took and you took
a swing. And that's I mean, I've been there, brother,
I've been there that you know, You're like, this is
my shot. I got this has to go. The train
is left is leaving the station on this.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Day, it's over.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Regardless of what happens, we're making something.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
If I'm following, if I'm following Martin and Dina around
with the camera, you know, for you know, a few weeks,
we're going to get something. But everything fill in the place.
I just had incredible, incredible support, and Terry Leonard was
a producer who who really came on and really helped
out with that. And my cinematographer, Danny Vecchioni. Danny also
a cinematographer, worked with him on multiple projects since, and
(19:06):
he shot the Yogi doc. So again, a lot of
a lot of my key creative relationships were started with
that film.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Now, as you know, many times when we're on set
as a director, h there's that day, that moment that
you're losing the sun, camera breaks, the actor can't get
to set. What was that moment for you on that
film and how did you overcome it?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I mean there were there were about thirteen of those
every day, so every day every day. But now, I
mean there's one in particular that Dina still brings up
to because I'm still really close. I mean, Dina and
Martin and I we get together for dinners all the time.
We're really still close, and we really bonded during that
you know, again that's another kind of similarity to the military.
But you bond through the stress, right and.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
And so there was one so we you know the film,
you know, there were different days. You know, we were
averaging over seven pages a day, so that was pretty tricky.
But there was you know, one day where we had
there's a long scene that takes place in a bed,
which is like a ten page scene, so that was
not we got like fourteen like we got like twelve
or thirteen pages that day, which is huge. So but
we had an action day where we had all our
(20:21):
boat scenes and all of our motorcycle scenes, which were
it was just our kind of most logistically challenging day
and we had the weather had to be right and
everything had to just be perfect, like we had didn't
have a minute to spare, and we couldn't. When we
got on the boat to shoot the boat scenes, we
didn't have enough people was myself, DP, producer, sound and
then the actors. That's all we could fit on the boat.
(20:42):
And on one of the take we you know, on
one of the takes it was a perfect take. I
loved everything, but Dina had left on her jean jacket
because she was cold, and so the continuity it wouldn't
cut it all and it was a big medius part
of the scene and I just I almost broke. I mean,
that was the closest I came to breaking, because we
I didn't know if we could do it again, so
we had to circle back around because everything has to match.
(21:04):
And then the weather and then I've got this motorcycles
waiting for us, which We've got to get to them
in time to get the sunset motorcycle shots. And I'm
on the boat, and it's just so that that was
probably the closest I came to kind of breaking. I
mean there's a lot of emotional moments. I mean, the
most emotional moment making it though, was when you know,
when we had told all the agents and everybody there
(21:25):
was a six hundred thousand dollar movie. That's what went
out to Martin and everything like that. And for Martin
started was like, oh, that's not a lot of money.
I can't believe it. And about two thirds of the
way through the shoot, we were shooting the scene at
this mock police station, and Martin pulled me aside, and
we had been through a lot at this point and
he and he said, uh, you know, I don't know
how I go Sean. I just need to tell you,
I don't know how you guys are pulling this off
for six hundred thousand dollars and I just and I
(21:48):
just started I just started crying. I just started crying.
Tears came out of my eyes. And he's like, he's like,
what's up. And he gave me a hug and I said, Martin,
we only have three hundred thousand dollars and uh, and
he hugged me back and he started crying. And we're
just there hugging, crying each other outside this you know,
made up police station. Uh that we you know, you know,
(22:10):
a shot somewhere. So anyways, moments like that, it's it's
a lot. You know, it's a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Now, is there something that you wish somebody would have
told you at the beginning of your career, piece of
advice or something.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Man, I don't know, you know, I'm not a you know,
I'm not a big like regret guy. I looked back. Guy,
I don't you know. I just I'm never good at that.
So no, I mean, I you know, I'm sure. Yeah,
I mean they could have told me. There are a lot
of things I could.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Like, Hey, you're not going to get You're going to
get through.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Yeah, you're going to three hundred. I mean, you know,
just how you know. I mean I think I was ready.
I think I was prepared for how hard it was.
I mean, I you know, it's just been it's been
very different. It's been very difficult on even personal relationships
and stuff, and you know, it's just been hard. It's
been a hard, hard road.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
And that's the thing that so many young filmmakers coming
up don't understand that this is not an easy path.
This is the the artist path is not an easy path,
but the filmmaker path is even more complex because we
cost so much frust and and we have to convince
other people to come along with us. It's very difficult
to do it all by yourself, if not impossible. So
(23:16):
it's it's it's I always like bringing these kind of
stories up so filmmakers listening, especially young filmmakers, understand what's
ahead of them, not to scare them off, but just
to understand the rules of the game. M hmm.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah. You almost have to just be possessed, you know, yeah,
which is you know, for better or for worse. But uh,
but you need a lot of collaborators, you need a
lot of support, You need people to vouch for you.
That's why I now, you know, vouch for younger filmmakers
and whenever I can and help out. Have had interns
over the years. I've got another one this summer, Giselle Denia.
(23:48):
She's really great and so I'm looking out for her,
trying to you know, trying to pass along any advice
I can. And actually I teach a class I teach.
I teach two classes over at a f I uh
if I the MFA program and directing I teach you
in the fall. It's like a directing one O one.
It's a fourth semester program I teach. In the fall,
I teach a like a directing one O one class
shot shot selection, shot progression, you know, kind of basic
(24:12):
directing class, intro to directing. And then the fourth semester
I teach a class called the first Feature where we
go through and we do case studies of dozens of
first features and you know what works what doesn't. So
I'm doing my best to pass along any knowledge I've
gotten over the years to make things a little bit easier.
But it's it's it's never gonna be easy for anyone.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I mean, you could you could tell somebody don't put
your hand in the fire because it's gonna it's hot.
Until you get into that fire, baby, you don't, you
really don't. You really don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
That's true. That's so true.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Here are all these stories by us old timers sitting around
talking about it. But until you're in the until, as
they say, you're in the ship. Uh, you, you really
won't know what's going on.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Now.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
When I was looking at through your your your filmography,
I'm like, okay, so he did this amazingly wonderful romantic comedy.
How does he go from I know, a romantic comedy
decemp for five, which is completely one eighty you know,
obviously much bigger budget, you know, a bigger cast and
action and different tone. How did you get like as
(25:12):
a as a as a creative and as a director.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, I mean I don't really when I'm looking at stories,
I don't look at genre or you know, even or
even you know, I don't really necessarily pay attention to format.
You know, I'm doing more docs now, but it's really
about to me, it's about character and story, and for
for me, the stories that have resonated the most are
(25:36):
are stories where there's some sort of tension between perception
and reality. So for Amir and Samo's, you know, the
perception and reality of a veteran returning from war and
an a ROCKI refugee. It's this kind of star cross
lever thing where where there there's a tension there. And
with Yogi, I mean with Yogi the perception of Yogi
versus the reality of Yogi. So for me, that's what
I'm really keyed into is every story I've gotten involved
(25:58):
with as some sort of tension between perception in reality.
And so I don't really you know, whether it's a
comedy or drama or doc or scripted. I don't think
any of that matters it to me. It's about kind
of you know, the story and the characters and if
I can undercover some sort of tension that is compelling.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
How did you approach the action because you hadn't at
that point. Have you shot on the action at that point?
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Are you talking about for Semper five?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:25):
So actually, so I did not direct Semper five. So
now you wrote out you wrote no, no, no, no, no,
I'm sorry. Yeah. So Henry Alex Rubin, who did a
murder ball Oh he ended up no, no, he directed it.
So I was just a I was a co writer.
I co wrote the script with him, and then I
was a co producer on as well, because I was involved.
I mean, that's I mean this. I had a one
hundred and fifty five drafts over fourteen years, and not
(26:45):
one dime until until until we until you know, the
first day of shooting.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Really so so at that point you shoot like, kid,
I'm want to be involved a little bit.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Well I tried to. Yeah, I tried to be as
involved as as they'd let me go.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Now, I when I saw your fest and it was
really interesting because I love the way you shoot docs.
It's very interesting, very cinematic. It's you know, there's some
documentarians who shoot it like a documentarian, but you seem
to shoot it like a documentary with a cinematic eye.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
And Kings of Beer are you talking about.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I just had I just had j on the show.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
I'm sorry. Oh yeah, he was Now Jay was amazing. No, No,
that was fun, those little those Yeah, that was my
So my first documentary was called Kings of Beer. And yeah,
I tried to bring again. I brought my DP. It
was a really incredible you know, cinematographer Danny Bechioni and
he he's got a real cinematic eye. And so we
you know, we visually tried, we tried to visually design it,
(27:44):
you know as kind of you know, to make it
look kind of, I don't know, as cinematic as possible.
And yeah, I'm glad. I'm really proud of it. That
was my first doc. And you know, it's also it
got a little bit had a little bit of a
stink on it, I think for some people after the
release because it was financed by Budwiser. So a lot
of people are like, oh, this is propaganda, this is stuff.
But I was like, listen that, you know, I did
(28:05):
get paid the first time my life. I got paid
really well. First I was like, oh, this is what
directors get paid. Oh, this is like this is this
is this? Yeah exactly, I got I mean, and and
so I understood. I understood that end of it. So yeah,
Budweizer did finance it, but they weren't involved, you know,
they weren't super involved with the editor or any of
the stuff. It was really up to me. And I
was really again when after care and when after Perception
(28:26):
Verse Reality, when I again, this is a Kings of
beer is probably one of my best examples where if
I tell you who are the top five groom masters
at Budweiser, you know you probably like, well, first of all,
you didn't know they had multiple Budweisers there's but you
probably like, oh, they're heavy set, white bearded, white dudes
from the Midwest, like just pressing a button Homer Simpson
taking a nap, right, No, I mean it was. It
was the five top brewmasters. There's sixty five brewers around
(28:47):
the world of brew butt, and the top five that
I followed for a year were after American, female, African,
American male h a Chinese man from Wuhan went to
Wuhan actually, which was crazy shot there right before everything happened.
Uh didn't speak any English. And then another woman, UH
from Canada who brews in in New Hampshire. And then
(29:08):
and then this uh, this white dude who was an
army combat bet which which was like really fascinating story.
So you know, again flipping flipping people's perceptions of what
a brew master might be. And and I'm really proud
of the film, and it taught me how when I
was finishing up post with that is when I got
the call from Peter Mike Sobloff saying, Hey, we know
the bears, we've gotten into them. Would you be interested
(29:29):
in directing a documentary about Yogi? And I was like,
I actually my initial reaction was like, well, let me
give me and me because I Yogy seems too perfect,
Like what's the drama, what's the tension? Right? And then
I started reading. I read some books and I went online.
I watched some videos and I was like, oh, oh no,
there there's there's something here. There's there's a real tension
between who he was and who people thought he was.
So I dove in.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah. So so let's let's talk about a and over
because we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. I agreed with you,
Like when I watched the film, I knew Yogi is
a pitch man. I mean I knew him as a
baseball player obviously, but I really didn't understand the impact
(30:13):
that he had had on the Yankees, and not only
on Yankees, on the baseball, on baseball itself, and how
he was not respected as or put in the light
that he should have been in because he was as good,
if not better than any of those guys on those
teams that he won ten championships.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
There's one stat that's and this is just the baseball
people out there, but there's one stat that we didn't
We couldn't show her in the movie. You know, you
have ninety minutes to tell this guy's incredible, you know,
ninety year journey, and so we couldn't fit everything in.
But there are only two players in the history of
baseball to finish in the top four of MVP voting
for seven straight years, and that's really tough to do
because it's really about consistency to finish that high in
(30:54):
MVP voting. I mean, Yogi won three of them, but
he finished in the top four seven years in a row.
The only other player to do it with Mike Trout.
So you know, he's not talked about though in the
same same kind of levels as some of these guys,
and so that was definitely something we were we were
going after it. He's also and again just from the
Yankees legacy, I mean he's the only I mean, if
you look at his life and we kind of we
cover this on the dock, but like you know, he
(31:16):
he came up as a as a as a rookie
and met Babe Ruth and shook hands with Babe and
got to know him a little before Baye passed. And
then and then he he was mentored by DiMaggio, and
then he was a you know, he was a teammate
of Mantle. And then you know, of course he's a coach.
He's a coach, yeah, in Maris of course, and and
Whitey and the whole crew. And then and then fast
(31:37):
forward to he's a he's a coach for you know,
Gidrey and Willie Randolph and and and Reggie and and
then and then he's the manager for Mattingly and then
he mentors you know, uh Jeter and Girardi and that
whole crew too. So there's no Yankee. There's nobody who's
done that. From from shaking hands with Babe Ruth to
mentoring Derek Jeter, there's you know, he really is theol,
(32:00):
the backgbone of the Yankees. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
And then you know that whole fourteen year bit with
him and George Steinbrenner, Yeah, yeah, I mean that that
was insane. Do you know that when I was down
in for Lardo watching spring training, I got George Seinbrenner
to sign my baseball.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Well, there you go, I got it.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
He was signing baseballs, and I made it out to
ESPN like even some kids were looking for George slibren.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah. I mean he was an interesting guy. I mean,
you know, I think Bob Costas put it well in
the in the documentary, and he was a polarizing figure.
But but you know, he did love the Yankees, and
he did love Yogi. They had they had obviously a
bit of a falling out. But we were able to
interview George's son, Hal and he was He couldn't have
been more kind and just really wonderful about things he
had to say about Yogi. So it was really nice
(32:44):
to be able to talk to so many wonderful people.
I mean, you saw the interviews. We got some great ones, so.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Oh no, some amazing ones. Yeah, but I have to
ask you, so when when and I've had other people
on the show have tackled large you know, you know,
just kind of like big shadows of people, just massive personalities,
how do you approach someone's legacy like this, Because I
know you were doing it with the help of the family,
so that actually helps obviously that you're not doing it
(33:09):
against the wishes of the family and everything, But how
do you even approach telling that story? I mean the
pressure on you, Like people are going to look at
this documentary. This is gonna be what people go back
and look at about yoga, because there really isn't a
definitive documentary on yogi.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
I mean not yet. I mean there is no there
is June eleventh, Yeah, there will be. No. We were
really proud of it and no, the family was incredible.
Like the biggest concern from day one was to not
make it some sort of like hagiography, some sort of
puff piece, some sort of that's documentaries that just put
their subjects on a pedestal and then I call these
(33:46):
things and this is very I was very upfront with
my producers on day one. I said, I don't want
to do called a Wikipedia doc, a Wiki doc where
it's just like they were born, they did this, they
did that. There's a difference between emotion, right, which is
what I'm after, and information, which is what you can google, right,
And so I I I'm really really it had to
play emotionally. I think it does play. I don't know.
(34:06):
I let you lead if you don't.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Agreed, agreed. I teared up a few times.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and if it doesn't have those
emotional that emotional component to it, I'm not interested in
directing it. So I was very upfront with that from
day once. So it was like, how are we going
to tell the story in a way that is going
to really get to the heart of audiences and so
but at the same time without you know, without it
being you know, just too much of a like I said.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Like a puff piece. You're absolutely right, because some documentaries
are just very informative. They just always like Wikipedia style.
You're right, like the Wiki doc. I know what the concept.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, I just I'm working on two docs right now
to other docks and and and yeah, that's just my
that's my number one thing is what can what can
we offer people that is actually truly cinematic, that is
actually going to engage them in a way emotionally, you know,
and lives right here instead of living up here, you know.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah, and then the whole I did a new Yogi bear.
I knew that whole backstory, but I didn't know how
deep it went. Why he was called Yogi. I was
wondered why he was called like that's obviously not his.
It'sal your name, right right. Yeah, there was one. There
was one piece in the in the documentary that blew
my mind. I just could not believe that that happened
(35:20):
because he's I think he was the first. He caught
the first no hitter in.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
A perfect game. He caught the only game. Yeah he caught. Yeah,
he called. He called all ninety seven pitches. So like
you know, so Larsen was just like locked in, like,
tell me Yogi what to do, and.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
He never and he never called, and he never did.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
He didn't check him off. He didn't check him off
once in ninety seven.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So he got so then and then yeah, decades later
he makes up it's Yogi Bear to day.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Well you can't.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, yeah, Yankee Stadium.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
You can't. Well it's that, you know. It's the type
thing in a documentary too, where I'm always looking at
where if I were to script it, Oh yeah, it
would the producers would throw it out. They said, this
is ridiculous. And that's when you know, I think you
got a doc that really works, is when there's a
moment that is so unbelievable that you couldn't have scripted
it and that definitely that moment you know, had that,
you know, and it's also a great example of that
(36:09):
information has been out there forever, Like you could have
read that on Wikipedia and you could have read it
and bullets and books. It's a fact that he was
part of these two you know, these two perfect games.
But but until you see it, until you are involved,
until you're experiencing it through everything he had gone through.
That's the difference between again, you know, kind of you know,
a cinema treatment and just a you know, just a
(36:32):
little wiki doc thing.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Now, on a business standpoint, when you know, because I've
studied docs for you know, most of microd I'm a
big fan of docs. But on a business standpoint, it's
I always find it so interesting when filmmakers work on
docs to have a building audience, So especially when it's
a larger than life figure like Yogi. How hard was
(36:54):
it to get the financing to put this whole thing together?
All that because people think like, oh, you're making a
Yogi Barrett Dog. I mean, the money must have just
been rolling in.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Well no, I could listen, listen, that's a whole nother
I mean, you know, I was extremely, extremely fortunate that
from day one. Peter and Mike Soboloff, who were the
first two. They were the ones who put the whole
kind of project together at the very beginning and called
me and asked me to direct. They went out and
raised the budget themselves, I mean, the two of them,
(37:26):
you know, they and I. I mean, I couldn't have
been more fortunate to work with, you know, two more supportive,
you know, you know, just bold, you know, uh producers.
And the first thing that they did, they went out
and you know, they were out while they were out
raising the money. I went and I turned right back
to Vanishing Angle Matt Miller and Natalie Mesker again, who
produced my my first feature of Meir and Sam, you know,
(37:47):
years ago, And I said, hey, would you guys want
to team up with the sobloss Is to be a
good team. They can kind of go out and raise
the money and lead that front. You guys can handle
the production side of it. And then I got my
old editor Julian Robinson from Amir and Sam, who's incredible
editor of the film. Is very well edited, I mean,
and all the archival he had he had to dig
through and all this stuff. So and I got Danny
and my old cinmhotographer. We kind of put the band
(38:08):
back together and and and made it happen. But as
far as raising the money, fortunately, you know, Peter has
really good ties to a lot of folks who are
huge Yankee fans, and he's a big finance guy in
New York, so he was able to, you know, him
and Mike were able to to make it happen somehow.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Right exactly, because I mean, yeah, if you tap into
there's a certain pool in New York.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Yeah, absolutely, no, it was nice. Well, the craziest thing,
the craziest thing is, over the course, over the course
of making this documentary, uh, Peter and Mike have gotten
involved in it are now minority owners in the Yankees actually,
so they actually own a piece of the Yankees too,
which is which is totally totally aside from the dock
just happened. So so that's pretty cool. Yeah. They Yeah,
they're great, they're they're they're a great team.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah. So and and then you've gotten to trybeca obviously.
So what was it like getting that call?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Man, It was wonderful. It felt like the right place,
you know, it just felt like this is where we
this is this is where we wanted to premiere the film,
so we knew it. We knew it. We were hoping
and they called us right away. And they called us
super early, back in like November, like I think November,
you know, way way early. I mean yeah, before they
even closed you know, before they even you know, closed submissions,
(39:18):
and they're like, hey, we want this, we want this,
and uh, we got excited, and then we were able
to get an incredible, incredible you know, if you know
the indie film business, you know you need a great
sales agent. And so we you know, we started at
the top and we took a stab at John Sloss
at Senetic and and he, uh, you know, he flipped
for it and he's been so incredib him and the
whole team of Senetic have been really incredible. So they're
(39:38):
selling it. So that's great. So yeah, I just started
to put all the all the all the pieces together.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Man. I really hope it gets out there because you know,
for for any baseball fan out there, I mean, Yogi's
just I mean, even if you're not a baseball fan,
if you're a certain age, you know who Yogi is.
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show, purely because he did
(40:05):
thousands of commercials. You know, I don't know, yeah, conmersals man,
it was given the doc He's like, I don't know,
I'm doing some it was AFLAC or something like that.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
Was like Amtrak, AFLAC. Yeah, he didn't know which one.
It was like, it's one of those. Yeah, I'm getting
a check.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
It's fine.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
But he seemed like such a sweet guy man, and
such an authentic kind of like it. It's one of
those people that you just they don't make souls like
that anymore, Like they truly don't.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
He just I mean, this is what I tell people
about the film. It was a real, real honor and
pleasure to tell a story about someone who just always
did the right thing. He just always did the right thing.
He just that was it. He just at every turn,
whether it was you know, uh, you know, breaking the
color barrier and help you know, helping, you know, befriending
you know, Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby and all these
(40:54):
guys who are coming into the league, who you know, whatever,
just at every turn. It's really the film is really
about a life well lived, and it's broader, you know,
we you know, one of the kind of templated films
we looked at when we were looking at these docks
was the Mister Rogers Dock, you know, had come out
one thing, and that was one of the films that's
that actually sparked the Sobolofs to call me they could
they be cause actually I got the call from them
(41:15):
in July of eighteen, So it was the summer that moved.
This project's be going on four years, you know, And
I got the call in July of eighteen and they
had just seen that doc and they were like, we
need to do something kind of in that vein for Yogi,
and so yeah, just a real I mean, I was
extremely honored, and you know, and and just the fact
that you know, Lindsay's happy with it, the great granddaughter,
(41:36):
she's incredible. She narrates the film and and I'm just
excited for the rest of the bear. The biggest audience
to have seen the film so far has four people,
and we're premiering in a thousand seat theater next Saturday,
So it's gonna be it's gonna be something.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Now. A really important question is, though, did was Jackie
safe you know.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
What's the craziest thing. I mean, you can you know, yeah,
did you like that little piece of the film that
back and forth thought, Oh a lot of fun it was.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
I'm talking about Jackie Robinson's there's a very famous play
at all, a play at home plate, where Yogi thinks
he got him, but Jackie was ruled safe. Jackie, the
great Jackie Robinson, and to his grave.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Oh is he great? He wouldn't never, No, he would never.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Even even when you saw frame by frame. I was
watching it and I'm like, what do you think I
first saw it. When I first saw it, him like, nah,
he's he got him out. Then there was like that
one sequence for the other angle, and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah, that's what's really great about it. So from the
front angle he looks out and then but from the
reverse angle he definitely looks safe. So but he I mean,
it's it's safe. It's great. I mean what it's what's
great about baseball too, right is that? Yeah? That was
Game one of the fifty five series, and it was
a really big deal and Yogi was at his height
and Jackie was you know, I mean, these were these
(42:53):
were characters who were larger than life, you know, and
to have that massive play at home plate in the
steel of home, and who steals home anymore? So it
was just it was a real It was Yeah, it
was really great. But no, if you look at that's
the great thing about it. If you look at U
from one angle, he looks clear, clearly out, and another angle,
you know, he looks safe. So that's great.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Now I'm gonna ask you a couple questions, ask all
my guests, sir, sure, what advice would you give a
filmmaker trying to break into the business today?
Speaker 3 (43:19):
What advice you know? That's uh, you know, start making films,
no matter how how big or small. Just start start shooting.
Start learning learning, learn the craft, Understand what a shot means.
Understand when you're a subjective it means something. When you're objective,
it means something. Learn how to compress, learn how to elaborate,
learn how learn the fundamentals? Uh, you know, just through
(43:41):
you can shoot. You know, one of one of the
classes I teach today if by and I taught at
usc for for a few years before as well, They've
got a great program there, and you know, I I
just would run my students through these like very basic
exercises like character A wants something from character B. And
you know, create a story no dialogue, and just how
(44:01):
do you articulate beats? So just like learning the basics
of like how do shots add up to you know,
an emotional impact, you know, with with an audience. And
so I would I would just say, start shooting, you know,
just on a video came on your phone, on whatever,
Start telling stories, start writing. You know, if you can write,
You've got a leg up as a director. I'll tell
(44:21):
you that. If you can write, you really do, because
nobody's you know, nobody's gonna just give a director a
great script. You know, the great scripts are few and
far between, as we all know, and so nobody's going
to give one to you if you're starting out. So
if you can write, that's great. If you can't write,
find a writer, team up with a writer, co write
with a writer. You know, Adapt to short story. It's
amazing how many first features are adaptations of short stories
(44:44):
or something that exists. So don't be afraid to grab
a piece of material from somewhere else. Tarkowski's you Know,
Iva's Childhood is one of the great all time great
first features. It was an adaptation. So yeah, anyways, just
that'd be my advice, is just to go out and
hold the craft. It's the same thing with acting and
some actors, oh I want to act well, like do
some theater like get learn how to act, like learn
(45:06):
the craft and you know, before you know, you try
to make it big, you know, So that that'd be
my advice.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
Now. And what is the lesson that took you the
longest to learn, whether in the film industry or in life.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Well, I'm still I mean, I don't know, man, I'm
still learning. Just uh, the lessons taken me the longest
to learn. Gosh, i'd say, you know that, I don't.
You know, Gosh, that's a good one. You know, I
don't know. I'm still I mean, I think I've learned,
(45:41):
you know, I've just learned so much, you know, I
think just like you know, I guess just how you
know how important relationships really are, relationships and collaborations. I think,
you know, I knew it. I knew it kind of instinctly,
but looking back at the past fifteen years, starting to
see you know, people pop up again again on my
prom and just knowing that, like it's really building this
(46:02):
kind of again to use a you know military term,
you know unit, you know this this this kind of
you know brigade or whatever you want to call it,
of supporters, uh, and and cultivating support from other filmmakers,
but also just you know, financiers and just champ you know,
understanding that it takes a lot of people to believe
(46:24):
in you in order to make it through this, and
being very respectful of that. Anytime anybody does believe in you,
really honor that and be grateful for it. And yeah,
I think that's that's the biggest lesson that I've I've
taken away.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
And three of your favorite films of all time?
Speaker 3 (46:42):
Oh my goodness, three of my favorite films. Well, let's see,
I think, you know, I don't. I don't know if
I have a favorite, but I definitely there are a few.
There's there's a there's a Russian film from nineteen fifty
nine called Ballot of a Soldier, which I think is
probably one of the all time great great films. I
recommend it's also a film not a lot of people
have seen, so I highly recommend tracking that one down
for anyone out there. I love the fifty five movie
(47:06):
Marty Pettetreewsky's Marty is really high up on my list
as well. And then goodness, I mean, I'm oh, man,
I'd say another one I throw out there. I'm a
big yam cheer fans of Rapriz. His first feature is
one of my favorites too. So I don't know, I mean, jeez,
I could you know. I could name I probably about
(47:27):
fifty favorite films, you know, but those are three that
just popped off my head.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Sean. Man, I appreciate you coming on the show, brother.
Congratulations on a great, great film and I look forward
to seeing more stuff from you in the future, brother,
And thank you for bringing Yogi out of the shadows
and showing showing who Yogi really is in your film. Brother.
So I appreciate you, man. Thanks again.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, no, thank you for the time. I really appreciate it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I want to thank Sean so much for coming on
the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tripe today.
Thank you so much, Sean. If you want to get
links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head
over to the show notes Atproofscreenwriting dot TV. Forward Slash
four seventeen. Thank you so much for listening to guys,
as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk
to you soon.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
dot tv.
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