BPS 423: From Instagram Mysteries to Indie Horror The Bold Experiments of Joe Kowalski

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
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Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four twenty
three eight.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
Ain't over till it's over, Yogi.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Berra broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when
we really should be working on that next draft. It's
the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business
of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.

Speaker 4 (00:33):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 5 (00:43):
Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now.
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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Speaker 6 (01:37):
On this episode, we have a Cleveland, Ohio based filmmaker
who recently made I Am the Doorway, a Stephen King
Dollar baby short film, and he's hitting the film festival
circuit with another film of his called Prism, with guests
Joe Kowalski, No problem, and remember the first time you
were here, I butchered your last name and I called
you something completely different. I don't even remember what it was,

(01:59):
and I can compared it to a deal deseain when
John Travolta called you know, yeah, he called her adell.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Disease, right. I do remember this?

Speaker 6 (02:10):
Yeah, I was like, what the hell happened there? I
was like, I knew his last name and I called
just something else. I was like, wait, what the hell
did I just do there? So I understand how John
Travolta feels. But since you've been on here, Joe, I
think you were episode eighty four. I want to say,
so that was actually, you know what, Joe, we're getting
close to over one hundred episodes ago, because I'm up

(02:33):
to like one, I'm up yeah, right, it's like one
sixty whatever I'm up to now, and you know, it's
just you know, it's almost one hundred episodes ago.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
We're like, we're like less than twenty away.

Speaker 6 (02:44):
And so, you know, Joe, I wanted to reconnect with
you because you're always up to something really cool, and
I wanted to ask about a couple of things, you know,
And as we sort of get rolling on this, so
you know, since we've last talked, you've done one you've
done a Dollar Baby Stephen King short film.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (03:02):
Two you've graduated from college, and three you have started
an Instagram murder mystery type interactive game. So I'm probably
missed a couple of other things. So I wanted to
ask about all that, all that stuff because I think
it's awesome, and particularly about your Stephen King short story
the Dollar Baby.

Speaker 7 (03:20):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (03:20):
For those listeners I've touched on this too, I had
I actually got a Dollar Baby done once, and I'll
tell you just real quick, I don't I don't want
to eat up all the time Joe with talking about me.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
I'm trying to talk to you about your stuff.

Speaker 6 (03:31):
But you know I I actually did the Dollar Baby too,
and I did in the death room. We actually shot
in Eastern State Penitentiary here in Philadelphia. I got us
a location for a pretty discounted rate. They wouldn't they.
They also just let us skip down on the insurance bond.
We actually had one, but it was it wasn't the
one that they usually recommend it was or asked for.

(03:52):
It was a It was a lower one that allowed
us to sort of, you know, make the production a
little cheaper. We shot for that in that in there
for like a day. We shot it Ridley Creek State
Park here right down the street from me here in
media and we kind of like put all this together
and at the end of it all the editor just
lost all the footage.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
And when I talked to everyone about it, they were like,
they were like, are you going to sue that guy?

Speaker 6 (04:16):
And I said, he's a lunatic, as I he came
recommended to me by somebody, right, And we we we
were working with him, and he just kept sitting on
the footage and I was like, what do you Because
you know what happened Joe. He had a Facebook addiction
and he would just scroll on Facebook rather than doing
it and I and I kept saying, I'm like, just
give me the footage back and I'll go to somewhere else. Well,

(04:36):
finally he got it together and we were gonna make
all these adjustments. We were so close to having the
final product done, and then he sends me this message
that his Mac was dying, and I said, look, I'll
help you pay for it.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
And then he he's like, oh, well.

Speaker 6 (04:49):
I don't know what I'm gonna do about this, and
blah blah blah this or that, and basically that was
the end of it. And he said that all the
his Mac finally died and all the footage went with it,
and I couldn't get ahold of them. You know a
lot of crazy editors out there, So I honestly, here's
my advice anyone listening to this, always have a backup
of your footage. Because my DP just gave him. My

(05:11):
DP just gave him the actual fucking hard drive with
everything on it.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
And said, here you go edit the footage.

Speaker 6 (05:17):
And I was like, dude, I go, I can't believe
you did that without giving it to me first and
letting me copy all this crap.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
But but that was my dollar baby adventure.

Speaker 6 (05:26):
It's another horror story that I have about filmmaking, Joe.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
It's like, you know, somebody else put it out.

Speaker 6 (05:33):
They're like, Dave, all your stories are all ending, like
heartbreak and and and and and you know, down on
much stuff like that. And I go, yeah, it's it's
the truth, man, because I have so many crazy people.
But uh but uh but no, but I want to
hear about your experience, Joe. You know, how did you
pick the story that you picked? You know, what story
did you actually pick? You know, how did you shoot
all this? How did you shoot everything?

Speaker 3 (05:53):
You know?

Speaker 6 (05:53):
Being as as it's you know, it's very limited to
being what you can do because obviously you can't get
investors for stuff like that, so you have to kind
of work in a very shoe string budget unless you
have a ton of money, you know what I mean.
But I want to hear all this about all about
this jokes. I'm fascinated. So what story did you pick
from the Dollar Baby collection.

Speaker 7 (06:14):
And just to clarify for the audience, the Dollar Baby
setup is something that Stephen King has done whereby he.

Speaker 4 (06:21):
Has a select number of his short stories.

Speaker 7 (06:23):
A lot of older ones in the seventies and early eighties,
that are available to use as long as you pay
a dollar to him. So it's probably about maybe twenty
short stories on the list. And it's really cool because
people like me, who don't have huge budgets and stuff
can technically make even King film without having to pay

(06:46):
ridiculous sums of money. So I had chosen I Am
the Doorway. This kind of came about because the girl
I was dating at the time it was a huge
even kingfan and she had heard of this before and
I had heard of it before. And we were putting

(07:08):
together a film called Prism that I released last year
that was a half an hour film, and we were thinking, like, well,
half an hour's kind of short to bring in a
whole audience and stuff.

Speaker 4 (07:20):
So we ended up doing is.

Speaker 7 (07:21):
We kind of made a film festival event and we
featured some other short films from around the world in
this theater in Cleveland, and I Am the Doorway, which
is the one we ended up going with was one
of those. It was kind of another way to kind
of make the ticket worth it for people, you know,
and kind of give them a full experience.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
So it was chosen by the girl that was dating
at the time.

Speaker 7 (07:50):
We went through a whole bunch of them, though, and
we read a bunch of them, and we were trying
to figure out, like, what is something that.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
We could do having almost no budget.

Speaker 7 (07:58):
And having only about a month's worth of time before
this big event, And what we did was choose that
one because a lot of what the supernaturalness, as you
see in a lot of Stephen King short stories, was
kind of taking place off screen and you were seeing
more of the results of what was happening, because you
get this astronaut who comes back to Earth and starts

(08:22):
getting these eyes that pop up on his body, and
we kind of created a framework story where we had
these two guys talking in a bar about this whole
situation and they kind of tie into the story. So
it was kind of cool doing that because typically I'm

(08:43):
used to starting stories from scratch and building upon those
and working upon that with friends, but it was really
interesting to take someone else's work, especially someone as you know,
prolific as Stephen King and try to adapt that to
like attend minute short film.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (09:04):
See, I just as a filmmaker standpoint, I'm sorry, as
a filmmaker standpoint, I just kind of think even just
trying to do something like that show we have an
astroast come back down on Earth.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
I mean, it just sounds expensive. We're just wearing my
producer hat. You know. Even with doing.

Speaker 6 (09:22):
With with Death Room, you know, I had that whole prisons,
you know, a location, and even just paying for that,
I was like, you know what they're gonna charge us.
You know, whatever they charged us, it was, you know,
I think probably a grand or something even for that day.
Even back then, I was like Jesus Christ a grand
and you know, we got to make sure everything's set and.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 6 (09:49):
Were there are so many problems that you know or
and ended up being my fault because I I to
do this. I listened to too many people, and that
was my fault for doing it. I've learned a lot
of things on each and every project. That project was
me listening to too many people, and I tried to
sort of do everything that everyone was recommending, and I
just I, you know, we had we had too much

(10:11):
time being wasted, and there was a lot of production
issues that could have been ironed out if I had
not listened to all those people, if you know what
I'm trying to say, like I am, that didn't even
need to be there, that we could have just went.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
We went went.

Speaker 6 (10:24):
You know what, we don't even need this fucking thing.
Fuck it and let's just get rid of it, you know.

Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (10:28):
And I've worked with directors who have skewed one way
or the other, and some of them are very well meaning,
but yeah, you do have some people who will literally
waste all the time on stuff. They see it just
like like a party. You know, they got all their friends.

Speaker 4 (10:41):
Together and there. I wouldn't be cool if we did
this and.

Speaker 7 (10:44):
They take an hour, Oh we got to find a
rope and takes another hour.

Speaker 4 (10:48):
Let's let's just eat. We're gonna eat. Some people like that.

Speaker 7 (10:51):
And then you do have the people who are like
so angle about trying to this is my masterpiece. You know,
I gotta get every single detail right now, more of
a tiny little smirk in that performance and stuff, and
so one thing that I've learned over the years and
I'm trying to always get better at, is finding the
balance between like, I want this set.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
To be enjoyable.

Speaker 7 (11:10):
I want people to be having a good time and
not feel like they're miserable doing this. But at the
same time, we also do have to keep like a
tight schedule on this, and there are some things I
do want to be kind of specific about and that
I'm very certain that I went. But I also have
to know when it when to compromise on that, Like

(11:31):
if it's not going to work out, find it another
way around. If someone has a great suggestion, be willing
and open to all suggestions if they're going to make
the story better or help move things along better for everybody.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
So it is a really hard balance. It is very tough.

Speaker 7 (11:46):
So I can understand falling into that trap entirely because
I've been there before.

Speaker 6 (11:52):
Yeah it was funny too, because well funny now, but
it was just because you know, somebody was who's worked
at a at a film festival contacting me and he
actually was a local Philly guy and we met and
I'll never forget this. I forget his name, but I
never forget where we met. We actually met, and he
asked me to meet up with him at at the

(12:12):
Philly Anarchist Paper headquarters.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
And I said, first off, I didn't even know Philip.

Speaker 6 (12:18):
Yeah, I didn't even know Philadelphia had an anarchist newspaper.
I didn't even know an anarchist newspaper was a thing.
We walk in, Joe, and I'm not kidding you. There's
a big sign on the wall that says please no
drug use allowed or sorry, please do not use drugs
while on the premises and in parentheses, yes, this includes

(12:38):
weed in parentheses. And I and I'm just laughing, going
if you have to put a board up like that, Like,
what the fuck is going on in here?

Speaker 4 (12:47):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Man?

Speaker 3 (12:49):
I started talking to this guy.

Speaker 6 (12:50):
And as this guy was talking and I mean, I'm
sure he met well, Like I'm like, first off, the
neighborhood was terrible. And I'm sitting there going, why the
hell are we even Like? Why why did I have
to meet for them? This is another thing, Joe that
always kind of like grinds my gears. People always ask
to meet me in person, or they want to meet
up for coffee or something. I go, why why don't
we just do a Skype message or why don't you

(13:11):
just shoot me an email?

Speaker 3 (13:12):
Why do we have to meet face to face?

Speaker 6 (13:14):
Like I don't get it, Like, honestly, I gotta waste
my time, get put gas in my car, drive up
all the way into the city or wherever the hell
you are, and then then we gotta meet. And it never,
nothing ever gets resolved because we just go back and forth.
And it's the same thing with that Stephen King guy.
We could have done that over a Skype interview with
Sharon Screenshare and had the same exact thing, and we
both could have just been in the comfort of our

(13:34):
own homes. It's just, you know what I mean, It's
just I just I'm not saying I'm like gonna become
some obese shut in or anything like that, like the
mom from Gilbert Grape. But but but well I'm getting
there the other Joe. But but like to me, if
you're gonna meet somebody, you should have a clear objective
because everyone's you know, I'm at the point in my
life now where I just think time is money now

(13:58):
and I'm always you know, when I was, I mean,
how do you Joe twenty.

Speaker 4 (14:00):
Four, I'm only twenty two I'm a baby.

Speaker 6 (14:05):
Twenty two years young, and I'm sorry, and I'm cursing
up a storm at you, sir. But okay, so you're
twenty two, so I'm ten years older than you are.
And so basically I'm at the point now, Joe, where
like I've become like that guy I always didn't want
to be where I'm just like, you know, everything's.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Time is money, you know.

Speaker 6 (14:24):
But when I was when I was your age Joe, again,
I'm sounding old as shit right now. When I was
your age show, I actually I would go out and
I would I would go on random film sets, I
would meet new people, and I would just get you
know what. I'm just gonna treat everything like an adventure.
I'm gonna treat everything like a learning experience, and I'm
just gonna go out there and I'm just gonna see
whatever happens. And when I made my Stephen King Dollar baby,

(14:45):
I think I was twenty four or twenty five. And
then I use that experience to parlay that into making
a TV pilot which I won't go into because you know,
listeners of this show know that story inside and out.
But with the whole uh, with that, what I did
there was. I was always looking at everything as like
a learning experience, and when when you know, meeting all

(15:06):
these different people on the course of actually making this
Stephen King Dollar Baby, I've met so many interesting people,
for both good and bad.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
But like you know, I think as a filmmaker.

Speaker 6 (15:17):
When you're that age, you know, twenty two, twenty three,
twenty four, you know, you have to go out there
and see all these you know, make all these mistakes.
And then when you're like twenty eight twenty nine, that's
kind of like you're you're starting to be getting your prime.
That's the age Quentin Tarantino make Reservoir Dogs. I think
that was the age when when Rodriguez made Rebel without
a crew.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
I'm me Ella Mariacia. I'm not sure though.

Speaker 6 (15:41):
That's the age where Damien Chase made Whiplash and I
you know what i mean. So I kind of look
at those experiences as is kind of molding me, because
that's that's what I'm sure.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
That's the whole point of what I'm.

Speaker 6 (15:52):
Trying to say here is you know, and and you know,
treating this as knowing the when these opportunities come down,
knowing what is going to be a good opportunity and
what's going to just be a waste of your time.
It's almost like, you know what I mean, like when somebody,
like when a producer comes to you and says, hey, listen,
I got this. You know, a producer quote unquote comes
to you and says, hey, listen, Joe, I gotta I

(16:14):
got this. You know, whole whole TV pilot ready to roll.
I need someone to direct it. Would you want to
direct it? And you're, you know, at first, you're like, Okay,
I'll talk to you about it. And you start to
meet and you go, oh crap, there's so many.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
Holes in this. It's unbelievable, you know what I mean.
You start you start seeing between the lines, if you
know what I'm trying.

Speaker 4 (16:30):
To say, right.

Speaker 7 (16:31):
I think a big part of it too, is that
I think time is the most important thing for everybody
on set, not just because of how the schedule is
and everything, but ultimately, especially on an independent film.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
Uh and you don't have the ability to pay people.

Speaker 7 (16:49):
That's the biggest thing they're giving you, and that's the
biggest thing they can give you is just that time
to be there and help make firth thing come to
life and so I find it so incredibly disrespectful when
people don't value that time and don't take into account that,
you know, these people don't have to be there. They're

(17:09):
not they're not being paid to be there anything. They
don't have any obligation to you other than the sense
that maybe they care about this project too, or maybe
they want.

Speaker 4 (17:17):
To see you succeed.

Speaker 7 (17:19):
So I definitely know what you mean when it comes
to a lot of the points that you've made, and
I just I try to respect that time and I
want people to get a full experience out of it. So,
like I said, when I was trying to put together
this festival event, I wanted to make sure that if
people were going to come, and we didn't have a
set price, but we just were kind of taking donations

(17:40):
in general, if people are going to come and donate money,
I want them to come out seeing like an hour
and fifteen minutes of really top notch short films. And
it's tough when you have friends that come up and say, hey,
can you include my film in this, and I go,
I don't think I can. It doesn't quite meet the
expectations of what we're trying to do with this.

Speaker 4 (18:00):
It's tough to be able to do that and to
be able to say, like.

Speaker 7 (18:03):
You know, and I I think you worked hard in this,
but you know, deep down you know that it's not
quite the quality that you want. And it's a hard
thing to do that because you want to make everyone happen,
you want to have all those contexts. But you're right,
you do have to start getting more selective about how
you spend your time and what you choose to work on.

Speaker 4 (18:21):
Right.

Speaker 6 (18:24):
Yeah, you know, somebody once told me, Joe that life
is all about creating a bubble around yourself and you
and you start to understand what you like and don't
like inside of that bubble, and anything and everybody that's
not within that confines.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
You push out of that bubble. And basically that's you
know what I mean.

Speaker 6 (18:41):
And I started to realize that over the years and
when I when I meet people and it's just like, hey,
you know, because I do this podcast, and I'll get
an email probably maybe once, I don't know, maybe once
a week saying hey Dave, would you ever you know,
if you're ever up in New Jersey or in New York,
or you want to come in Philly or whatever, why
don't you come and we'll have coffee or whatever.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
I go, you know what, I just.

Speaker 6 (19:01):
Don't know why, Like you know what I mean, Like
I don't want to sell like a jerk. I don't
want to sell like a jerk. I really don't, Like
I don't want to be like, oh I'm Dave Bulls.
But no, I'm just like, you know, why would you
want to talk to me?

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Like what? You know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (19:14):
And it's just like I want I want to make
sure that we're each getting something out of it, and
it's not just going to be you know, turning to
a pitch meeting, which, by the.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
Way, Joe has happened.

Speaker 6 (19:23):
I've had people meet me and they go they're just
like hey, yeah, and there's like, hey, Dave, you know,
would you want to join this project?

Speaker 3 (19:28):
And I go no, like when they he was art
broke and he goes and he looks at me and
he goes, why not? And I go, well, uh, it's
and it's like you.

Speaker 6 (19:37):
Were just saying, you you you you try to you know,
you want to see people succeed, but you just want
to you know, you want to say, well, it's it's
because it's not going to work. Dude, there's so many
holes in this in in production, like, hey, can we
can we shoot a I You and I talked about
this before, by shooting period pieces on a budget.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 6 (20:05):
Like, hey, I want to shoot a civil war I
want to shoot a civil war period piece.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
With five hundred bucks. Oh okay, good luck. You know
you know what I mean?

Speaker 7 (20:17):
Yeah, absolutely, And you get the you get a lot
of that too, and and you know what if if
they do have a substantial amount of money, then those
things are realistic. But otherwise that's a big part of
it too, is knowing what realistically can accomplish. And that's
something I always try to take into mind when I
when I write the projects that I do, is I

(20:40):
know the resources I have to work with primarily, I
know the people I have to work with primarily, and
and be smart about how you do it, because people
will be so much more impressed if you make a
really good film within your limits than if you try
to reach too far. And that doesn't say you don't
that doesn't mean you shouldn't challenge yourself, and that doesn't

(21:00):
mean that you know you might throw in something that
might that might be a little more expensive, it might
be a little bit more complicated that you're gonna have
to figure out. You got to give yourself those challenges.
But at the same time, don't, like you said, try
to make like a period piece of like this crazy
futuristic sci fi when you know that realistically, if you
try to do that, you're only gonna get like twenty
percent of the way there, and people are just going

(21:22):
to see it as a little silly.

Speaker 6 (21:27):
Yeah, and it's just gonna be you know, if you
want to do yeah, do all that stuff, and you know, hey,
do you have somebody that knows or rents period piece costumes?
Because five you know, even if I bumped up to
five thousand dollars budget, like, you're gonna eat through that
in no time, just to just to setting up the world.
And it is gonna you're right, it's gonna end up
looking just silly, you know. And it's just gonna end

(21:48):
up looking just look crazy. I'll give you another example
and then and then we'll get back to what you
were talking about.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
And I don't want to take this again. I don't
want to. I wanted to talk about your stuff.

Speaker 6 (21:57):
But like, you know, I had a guy before come
to me and he wanted to shoot a zombie film
for like, I think he said, like five hundred bucks.
And I said, you know, it's possible, because I said,
if you look at Colin.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
And I actually had the director and writer Mark V.

Speaker 6 (22:10):
Prince on this podcast and we talked about how he
did it for fifty bucks or it really did? He
shot it for fifty bucks, shot a full length zombie
feature called Colin, which is actually really freaking cool. And
basically with Colin, it's a he get this guy gets
bit by zombie in the beginning of the film and
he becomes a zombie and for the rest of the film,

(22:30):
you follow this shambling zombie throughout the rest of the film.
It's actually really cool and and in fact, the fact
that he shot it, yeah, honestly, it was a phenomenal idea.
And the fact that he got it did it for
fifty bucks makes even better because I told him, I said, Mark,
if you had shot this for like, let's just say
somebody gave you a million dollars, I said, you would
have shot yourself in the foot. And you know what

(22:52):
I mean, because you would have been like, holy shit,
now we can have a building explode, you know what
I mean. And I think that's sometimes you know, as
again we were talking about you know, you gotta weigh
your opportunities. But Mark, you know, he was able to
do whatever he wanted because he you know, obviously fifty
bucks is fifty bucks. But but anyways, but you know,
as we talk about that, that guy was talking about
the zombie feature.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
He wanted to shoot it for five hundred bucks.

Speaker 6 (23:14):
And he basically was was like real adamant about shooting
this thing, and Joe, I am not getting around with you.
He wanted to shoot it at three o'clock in the morning.
He wanted to shoot this one scene at three o'clock
in the morning. And I'm looking on Google Maps and
I said, what's this building right across the street from
where we're going to film? He goes, oh, that's the
police station. I said, are we gonna have permits? He goes, no, No,

(23:37):
this's all going to be gorilla stuff. I said, So
we're gonna shoot right across from the police station with
the army of zombies, and you don't think anyone's going
to say anything?

Speaker 3 (23:44):
And he looks at me, and he goes, no, do
you think they will?

Speaker 6 (23:47):
I go, yeah, dude, I think the police are going
to look out their window and go, hey, here's somebody
filming without a permit.

Speaker 4 (23:54):
Yeah, oh boy.

Speaker 6 (23:56):
So yeah, it's stuff like that, man. But you know,
as we go back to talking about your stuff, Joe,
so what were some of the biggest production issues you
had while making your Dollar Baby?

Speaker 3 (24:06):
I mean, did you know, did you start a crowdfund
a campaign for it?

Speaker 7 (24:10):
Uh? No, Like I said, this was kind of more
of a side thing that we could show off for
the festival. So we actually shot pretty much most of
it all in one weekend, and one of the locations
was a restaurant that I do some media work for
that I got permission, and then we filmed at a
beach that was public, you know, just public property. And yeah,

(24:36):
it was just a lot of like again, like using
your resources and saying here, I have this, so why
don't I know this in here? You know, and working
with it and making it work within the stories context.
A far bigger project was the film Prism that I
that I mentioned that we were kind of showcasing around

(24:57):
this whole festival event, and that was that film basically
took a year from the first first typing it to
actually showing it off. And I can talk a little
bit about that if you'd like me too it all.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 7 (25:18):
Basically the movie is about six people from two different families,
and each character is represented by a separate color. So
while the most of the film you see is in
black and white, when that character is on screen, you
see their color pop out of the black and white.
So like if you remember, like in Schindler's List, there's

(25:38):
like the girl red dress, and.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
That photo effect comes up a lot.

Speaker 7 (25:43):
You know, you see like yellow highlights come out of
a you know, a picture of somebody or something like that.
We basically did that with the whole movie. So like
when our character Green was on screen, his shirt would
come out because he was wearing green, but also the
trees in the background you would see them. And that
was a very interesting challenge from a storytelling standpoint, from

(26:04):
a technical standpoint because all that I think, if you're
going to do something like that, each of the collies
have to have a meaning to them. So that was
something we were very certain about. And also the story
kind of weaves in and out of these characters' lives
and how they relate to each other, and this person's
cheating on this person, and this person's has a crush
on this person. And one thing I really had to

(26:27):
learn from this film was really to just outline everything,
and that's not something I'm very used to doing. I
kind of like diving in and then just seeing where
it goes. And sometimes that works, but it's a lot
of work after the fact to try to make that
into something cohesive. But particularly in relation to the families,

(26:47):
we had to like sit down and write out a
family tree and figure out the relation of each character
to the other, and that was something that was kind
of difficult because then we would say, well, this doesn't
really work. This character would an interact with this person.
It was a very unusual process for this whole movie,
and we aren't really able to show it off yet

(27:08):
because we're trying to get in some film festivals. I mean,
we haven't had any luck yet, but we're going to
keep trying. But the trailer is online if anyone wants
to check it out. If you look up like Prism
twenty sixteen or Prism Short Film twenty sixteen, or even
on my channel.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
Pog Joe and that's p O. G. I E. Joe.

Speaker 7 (27:29):
There's a couple of trailers on there, so you can
kind of get an idea of what I'm talking about
with this color thing.

Speaker 6 (27:36):
You know, Joe, I actually have some film festivals I
would recommend that you entered into. Number one being the
Delco Film Festival. I think they that would be a
good film festival for you to enter it into. That's
actually right by my house as well. But if you like,
I can actually introduce you. I can actually introduce you
to the guy who runs it.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
Oh that would be amazing.

Speaker 7 (27:56):
And you know, if I was ever in that area,
we could meet up and have some coffee and I
have this great pitch I want to sell you.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
No go, Joe, No way, no, No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 6 (28:09):
Yeah, No, I would see, like like somebody that I've
actually met and talked to, I would be down for that.
And you know the funny the founder is Chris Piermenico,
and he's actually been on the podcast before and uh,
Chris is Chris is a very good guy. And before
we got on the podcast, he said to me, He's like,
please try not to curse too much because I'm going

(28:29):
to recommend this to my students and don't tell any
weird stories. And I go, that's all I have in
life is weird stories and cursing.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
That's it. That's you take that away from me.

Speaker 6 (28:38):
I'm not I'm nothing anymore, right, But yeah, I'll.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Exactly, I'm just like a shell of a man.

Speaker 6 (28:45):
I'm not even I'm not even my George Costanza self,
but I will introduce you to him and I right
this podcast, and I'm sure Chris would love to talk
to you about having that film there. And you know,
so as you made You Know Your Dollar Baby too,
because I'll link to everything in the show notes as well.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Everybody.

Speaker 6 (29:01):
I'll link to the Delco Film Festival and every and
Joe's channel and everything else. But when when you're talking
about you Know Your Dollar Baby and you actually just
you shot it into a weekend, did you have any
like real huge production issues come up that that like
anything that we were talking about, or anything like completely unexpected, like, hey,
it rained on a Sunday when we thought it was
going to be clear skies anything like that.

Speaker 4 (29:23):
Actually, that was surprisingly straightforward.

Speaker 7 (29:25):
We were actually kind of marveling that it came out
as well as it did. And the nice part about
it is that the people we cast in it were
people that we were considering for the other film Prism
that were really good, but they just didn't quite fit
the parts we were looking for, So were like, what's
the capacity that we can use these people? So we
were able to get four of these actors who were really,

(29:46):
really good that I still wanted to work with into
this film and you know, get to spend a couple
of days filming with them.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 7 (30:04):
And the thing about that, it was just basically a
skeleton crew of me, my and my girlfriend at the time,
and so I guess we didn't really have to worry
too much about other cast and crew members. It wasn't
like the other film where we had like a full
cast and everything. It was kind of just us just
going at it, and it was it was almost a

(30:26):
fun relief side project after having that massive project, like
I said, kind of churning into that for a year.
So actually, I'm really really glad I did the Dollar
Baby because it was just such a nice, like, un.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
What's the word I'm looking for. It wasn't It wasn't
a high level stress thing.

Speaker 7 (30:46):
It was something that we planned out and really just
kind of had fun doing.

Speaker 6 (30:55):
And you know that's something too, you know, I talked
to Alex Ferrari about of any film hustle, and we
were talking about that as well, where you know, at
some points, I mean, you you and and it's good
that you learned at the age of twenty two. Sometimes
when you're making something, you just get this obsession with it,
like everything has to be perfect, and then you start,
you know, and everything, the stress starts to get on you.
And then by the end of it, you're like, I

(31:16):
just can't wait to get this thing done and I'll.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Never talk about it again.

Speaker 6 (31:20):
And you're like, and honestly, that's what happened to me
and my short, my student film. I I by the end,
Joe I was like, I just want to get these
last shots I'm gonna do. The last day I was
doing my short, my student film, I actually said I
to everybody, I said, We're doing one take of everything.
That's it, and then I'm and then we're just gonna
call it a day, and and everybody was just burned

(31:41):
out from it. So we ended up doing more than
one take on a lot of stuff, but still it
ended up and we're like, look, that's it, We're done,
and I don't want to talk about this every again,
but uh, it's you know, and then you want to
do something fun where you just can have fun while
you're actually shooting, because you know, at the end of
the day, this is supposed to be fun, right, yeah.

Speaker 7 (31:57):
Yeah, And that's why I think you really, you really
have to care about the story you're telling with a big,
long term production, because it is very easy to get
tired of it. But you have to know deep down
that when you finish it, it's going to be so
rewarding because it's a story you really care about, and
in a way, you never quite leave it because even
after you show it, at least in my case, we

(32:19):
did like crowdfunding, so you still have to.

Speaker 4 (32:21):
Go in and you know, make the.

Speaker 7 (32:22):
DVDs and the Blu rays and the bonus material, and
you still have to promote it for film festivals if
you're trying to get into that whole realm, and and
then you have to try to get the movie to
various people and who didn't get a chance to see it,
and you forever are always kind of attached to it
and pushing it and trying to get it out to people.

(32:46):
So that's the thing I think that's really important, and
that's why I try to come up with good stories
that are that I can care about even when I
don't feel like caring about them.

Speaker 6 (33:01):
Yeah, it is, you know, and when you're trying to have,
you know, just a good time with this stuff, and
you know, you want to be able to see, you know,
you have fun while you're making it, and then you
see up on the screen and that's something everyone can
be proud of. And you be cause you know, you
all did your best and you it's that feeling you get,
you know, Okay, we've you know, it was it was
a little tough, it was a little frustrating. We're all tired,
but we all did our best. And now the proofs

(33:22):
in the pudding. Now it's all up up on uh
up on screen there, and you know, some days you
watch it and you're like, oh, man, there's a mistake.
There's another mistake. Yeah, and you know and sort of
you know that, you know what I mean like that
that that sort of seeps in after a while too.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
But you know, at the end of the day.

Speaker 6 (33:38):
I think some of the best filmmaking advice is by
Mark Duplas, where he said, literally every weekend, go out
and for a hundred bucks make a short film with
your friends. He said, don't spend more than a hundred bucks,
and it'll teach you more about filmmaking than than than
anything else could, because you're actually out there doing it,
and you're actually out there actually making stuff, and you

(34:00):
can you know, and if you don't, and honestly, if
it sucks, hey we spend one hundred bucks.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
If it's good, you put up on YouTube.

Speaker 4 (34:06):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 7 (34:06):
And that's one thing I'm really grateful for with things
like YouTube is because since I've been doing it for
seven years now fairly regularly, it is that kind of
experience where I always I am trying new things and
making cool.

Speaker 4 (34:23):
Stuff with friends.

Speaker 7 (34:24):
And you're right, like, you know, even if you're not
even spending that much money, you're still getting the experience.
So you're you're making something that can be a sort
of time capsule. Like I remember when I was hanging
out with that friend in Cleveland, you know, years later,
and I think, honestly, I think that's how I got
to where I am. And it's not like I'm not

(34:45):
trying to brag or anything. I'm not saying that I'm
like at the top of the top or anything like that.
But I think I've done more than a lot of
peers my age because of that experience and because I've
always been interested in creating things and I can't stop.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah, exactly, you know.

Speaker 6 (35:04):
And you know, I think artists more than anybody else obviously,
because they have this desire to create. It's like this desire,
this innate desire you're kind of born with and you
have this desire to create, and sometimes you're when you're younger,
you don't really know.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
What it is.

Speaker 6 (35:20):
You just kind of do it, you know what I mean,
whether it be like an arts and crafts or something
like that. And then some people pick up a video
camera if they're if they're you know, if they that's
what they're if their adolescence is filled with if their
parents had a video camera, and you you sort of
you know, you start doing all this stuff, and I mean,
you know, because you're born with this life and it's
almost like this feeling of we have to create something

(35:43):
of value at all times. And it's something I feel
too and it's almost like this feeling of Okay, I'm here,
now what should I do? Well, you know, and if
you're an artist, you say, well, I'm going to create
some more. And I have this desire to create. And
you know, maybe other people are like chefs and they
just want to make make food, and that's that's desire
to create. You know, when we start putting all these

(36:03):
projects out there, and you know, you've been on YouTube
for seven years, and I think that's phenomenal. Honestly, Joe,
I hope you keep doing it because honestly, you know
you're you're obviously I know you're getting better.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
You're getting better and better and better.

Speaker 6 (36:17):
And also because I just think it's a great outlet too,
because again, like we were just saying, if you make
a film for one hundred bucks and if you don't
like it at the end of the day, hey, look
I spend one hundred bucks. But if you do like it,
hey put it on up on YouTube and who knows
what could happen?

Speaker 4 (36:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And.

Speaker 7 (36:36):
There's there's I think there's a lot of marriage that
we were saying about having those those projects that are just.

Speaker 4 (36:41):
Something fun and one thing for me too.

Speaker 7 (36:45):
Besides just the YouTube stuff, is also our podcast, which
which you've actually been on once before, and.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
We're not that's right, Yeah I have.

Speaker 7 (36:54):
Yeah, we're not as far along as you are, but
we're getting pretty close to seventy episodes. And that's like
a fun thing where like just me and a few
of my friends can get together once a week and
just have a good time. And it's not something you know,
I'll have it edited in a couple hours and you
still have to post it and promote it a little bit.
It sponsors occasionally and stuff like that, but at the

(37:16):
same time, when we're just sitting there recording it, it's
just an hour where we can just just have a
good time and talk, whether it be about deep things
or maybe it's just goofy, light hearted stuff. But that's
been a really cool project to collaborate with my friends
on because it is that little kind of low stress

(37:38):
relieving kind of project.

Speaker 6 (37:43):
Yeah, it's you know, the podcast is fun. You know,
that's why I do my podcast. I actually made a
promise to myself. I said, the day itself's becoming fun,
i'm gonna stop doing it. I've broken that promise a
few times, but you know, I was listening. I was
listening to Tim Ferris one time, and he said the
whole idea, the whole conceptly his podcast was. He goes,
I just want to edit it myself, but I want

(38:04):
to make editing no more than ten minutes.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
He goes.

Speaker 6 (38:06):
If I had to sit here and edit out stuff,
he goes, I hate doing that. He goes, I think
it's pointless. He goes, I just want to have a
conversation and put it up online. And I mean, look
at his fan base. It's unfreaking believable. And you know,
that's kind of like what I wanted to was, you know,
just having not having to sit here for you know,
four hours a night, going, okay, let me edit this
podcast and do all this stuff. I mean, I do

(38:28):
do some editing to it, but I try to keep
it as pure with the conversation as possible. Most of
my editing involves like I'm gonna boost your maybe i'll
boost your audio a little bit, or maybe i'll put
it like a deh hissser effect in there, just to
sort of take out any sort of like that static
noise or de hummer something like that, you know. But yeah,

(38:48):
I mean, a podcast is a really cool way just
to sort of you know, just a it's another form
of media. And because the the the gatekeepers are all
non existent, because I mean literally, you can create a
podcast with your phone now and upload it to like
something like Podbean.

Speaker 4 (39:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (39:03):
Absolutely, And I already had all the equipment I needed
to make something like this, because I already have a
bunch of audio and video equipment from doing all the
other work that I do. So it wasn't like I
needed to go out and get some stuff. I mean,
eventually we did get like a nicer microphone, and you know,
we'd like to eventually save up to do more live

(39:26):
shows to kind of have the equipment to do that.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
But I mean most of the.

Speaker 7 (39:29):
Stuff was already there. Only needed was each other and
an idea. So I totally see the appeal. And while
I edit it in like ten minutes, I do take
out some things, and you know, we bleep out a
couple words and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (39:45):
For the most part, it's it is a pretty low
stress project compared to a lot of other things that
I'm trying to do.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now to the show.

Speaker 6 (40:03):
And you know, actually it's something else I want to
talk about too, is you know, what else are you
are you trying to do? Because I know you did
the Instagram Murder Mystery game, So I want to hear
about this because you know, I purposely don't know anything
about it. Maybe I wanted to actually talk to you
about it. So like, what is is it like a game?
It's a game that anybody can play, right, yeah.

Speaker 7 (40:20):
Yeah, as long as you have an Instagram account, you
should be able to play it. And this is actually
I was trying to make a capstone for an interactive
media class that I was taking before I graduated this
past semester, and you know a lot of people were
doing a lot of cool stuff with like VR and
with like some interactive videos. But I was trying to

(40:43):
think of something that I hadn't tried before because I
had done a little bit of both those things. And
I was thinking a lot about how people use Instagram sometimes.

Speaker 4 (40:53):
To create these picture grids of sorts.

Speaker 7 (40:56):
You know, if you upload the pictures in the right order,
all of a sudden, if you go to that person page,
you know, one big picture can be made out of
like nine pictures. And I just thought that was really cool.
So I was wondering, like could you do something with that,
Like how do you how do you make something that
feels self contained, you know, not like it's like like

(41:17):
it's like you're inside this little experience through Instagram. And
so what I did is I used those kind of
picture grids and I use the tagging system whereas like
if you if you tap on a picture, it will
come up with like a tag in that person's account.
So I between those two features. Again, Instagram isn't designed

(41:40):
for something like this, but I kind of yeah, created
a game of sorts, and if you go to the
account Murder Mystery Game all one word, people can check
that out. I mean you start out with like a
map of Cleveland, and then if you go to the
individual pictures, there are those tags where you can go
to other parts of Cleveland and look for clue, and
then you get the testimony from all these different characters.

(42:03):
And if you tap on more of the pictures within
those accounts, you can sometimes see these fake characters' accounts
and just little clues that are hidden throughout. And like
I said, the whole idea is that you're trying to
solve this this murder mystery of this girl who was killed.
So it was a very unusual project because it's not

(42:25):
a linear thing where you just set out like, Okay,
I have this scene and I have this scene. But
at the same time, I was utilizing a lot of
the things I had learned from doing video and filmmaking
and stuff like that, Whereas you know, if you set
up a schedule, I'm meeting with this person at this time,
we're gonna record video of them, we're gonna stage a
bunch of pictures with them, and then later on we're
moving to this person. And planning it out like that

(42:48):
made it a much less scarier process because I got
way in over my head. One of the things I faced, too,
was that for every new Instagram account, you have to
have an email address attached to it. So I was
just making all these like Gmail accounts that we're associating
with all the different accounts. But then Gmail is like, hey,

(43:09):
you can't make that many accounts, and I was like okay,
So they went to Yeahoo, and I started making all
these big yeah who accounts to try to make more
Instagram accounts, and yeah Who was like, hey, you can't
make that many yeah Who accounts. So I ended up
going to like seven different email servers to try to
create all these fake email accounts I could make all

(43:30):
these different Instagram accounts, which is just yet another way
that proves that Instagram wasn't really designed to work like that.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
You know, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 6 (43:41):
You know, Instagram is is cool at all, but there's
a lot of things that are like limiting with it.
I know they want to make like, for instance, the
mobile uploading. You know, I tried to like post things.
I can post things to my desktop, but you know
what I mean, And sometimes they make it so difficult
to just post, you know, stuff like that, because I hey,
I want to take a photo and I want to
do some stuff to it then put it to Instagram.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
You know what I mean. Yeah, and again I understand
completely were you Oh no, that was real.

Speaker 4 (44:11):
I'm sorry, it's a little bit of a lag because
that's that leads to some of it.

Speaker 7 (44:15):
I was just gonna say, I did run into that
problem a lot too, especially given that I have a
very cheap phone that doesn't have a whole lot of memory.
So anytime I had to like download all of these
pictures or god forbid, when I had to download the
actual video clips. It would take up so much room
on my phone that I would have to like delead
a bunch of apps on my phone, download the pictures

(44:36):
and footage, upload them to this Instagram account, and then
re download my apps again.

Speaker 6 (44:44):
Yeah, it's uh. I mean, I know there was a
slight lag on your side. I don't know, you know,
I think it might be uh just our our recording
host Skype, but but uh with your phone and you
had to do backup all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
I've been there before.

Speaker 6 (45:01):
I used to have, Like I bought one the one
I bought, one of the smart first smartphones that came
out called the LG Revolution Joe. It was one of
the worst freaking friends I've ever had. It was so
I bought it in the two thousand and six or seven.
It was little, literally garbage, and I kept having to
like back up on every everything else. I would try to,
you know, it was so I've been there, man, but

(45:22):
but no, I So it's so so if somebody wanted
to like solve the murder mystery Joe, so if I
had an Instagram account, let's just say right now, I
say I want to check out Joe's murder mystery game.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
I went to that inta I have an Instagram account.
I went to your Instagram account.

Speaker 6 (45:35):
So we're how do I how would I go about
like solving my first clue to see you know, to
seeing who you know? Obviously we find out who was murdered.
How do we go about, you know, sort of doing this.
Do you provide any clues or are they supposed to
sort of have to solve it themselves.

Speaker 7 (45:50):
Yeah, it's very much on the on the user's own
volition that they have to find the clues. But there
are a lot of clues sprinkled throughout, but there are
a lot of red herrings out and dead end And
basically when most of the accounts start with murder mystery
and then end with a word, So like when you're
at the beach, it's murder mystery Beach, and when you're downtown,

(46:11):
it's murder mystery Downtown. So to figure out if they
solved right, you have to go to an account that
starts with murder mystery and ends with the murder weapon
used to kill the victim. So and then on that
page you get to kind of see if you're right,
and you get a little kind of set of pictures
and a little video clip kind of.

Speaker 4 (46:32):
Explaining how that went down.

Speaker 7 (46:35):
So if you look around and you go to all
these different accounts, you'll you should be able to find
out what the murder weapon was. And not everyone I've
shown it too has figured it out. Some people needed
a little extra help, but I did have quite a
few people who were able to get to the end successfully.
So that was the one thing I was nervous about,
like did I make this too hard? Like are people

(46:55):
are going to be able to figure this out? But
there are there are some people who were able to
get to the end.

Speaker 6 (47:02):
So Joe just to just to sort of ask, when
you get to the end, is there any sort of
like like I don't want to say prize, but is
there anything that like a little trophy or something that
like people would like, you know what I mean, like
they could sort of bragging rights or you know what
I mean? Is there anything at the end where people
know it's the end? And is there any type of
like prize so to speak, as I'm trying.

Speaker 7 (47:22):
To say, not so much any external prize, but like
I said, when you when you get to the account,
when you saw it, there is like a set of
pictures and like a video clip that kind of explained
how exactly how it happened. You get to see how
how the murder happened. And I, uh, that's that's that's

(47:43):
pretty much it.

Speaker 6 (47:47):
No, I just wanted to ask, you know, I imagine, what
do you like, you know, cool bragging rights?

Speaker 3 (47:52):
And it is a really cool idea.

Speaker 6 (47:54):
So I'm glad, you know, honestly used in social media
that way where you know, it's very creative and you know,
it's a lot of interactivity, which I which you know,
I think is becoming big now, especially with you know,
stuff like advances and VR and stuff like that.

Speaker 7 (48:08):
Yeah, And that's the thing is that all these interactive
methods are constantly evolving. You're never going to have the
same technology used, you know, even two or three years later.
I went to the Cleveland Film Festival this year, which
is a pretty pretty big festival for those who don't
know anything about it, and they I went to a

(48:29):
whole VR demonstration. And I've always kind of had a
cataal interest in VR. I've gone to some meetings where
I've got to try out the oculus and some of
the other more elaborate ones where you get like the
full body experience, which is really really really cool. And
I and I really believe especially that virtual reality is

(48:50):
going to continue to be a bigger and bigger factor
in our lives. I think, not only in terms of gaming,
but in terms of how we learn and things used
in schools and and how we promote ideas, and it
can be such an immersive experience. But yeah, some of
these films at the Cleveland Film Folcs, it was really

(49:10):
interesting to see how they used virtual reality, because I
think some of them nailed it really well, and some
of them were like, you know, like there was I
saw this documentary where they took you to an area
where malaria was really active, and it was about this
family trying to move to a new area where they

(49:32):
could have tents that had mosquito nets on them, and
being and like seeing and be able to look around
in these environments really really connected you with this family
in a way that I don't think I would have
felt quite as strongly if it was just a regular
two D image that I was watching. And of course
at the end, it was for an organization where you

(49:52):
could donate to help these families.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
We'll be right back after a word, from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 7 (50:05):
And that was like a really exciting use of VR
that I think that could be really useful in the future.
But then I also watched another one where the whole
idea is that you died and you got like buried,
and that sounds really cool in theory, but it was

(50:26):
not done in a way that I felt was like
it just felt really gimmicky. Like if it was telling
like a really compelling story, I think it would be
more interesting, but it was kind of grainy, and it
was to the factor that like, I think within two
or three years, the technology is going to make something
like that a little less likely to hold up than
this really engaging documentary. And I also got to see too,

(50:50):
there's a short film called Pearl that was nominated for
an Academy Award, and it was a really big deal
because it was the first virtual reality project to be
nominated for an Academy Away. And that was another one
like it was, yeah, maybe the technology will evolve and
this this short film won't be as immersive or as
as high tech as it is right now, but it

(51:11):
was such an endearing story that I think I think
it will hold up it was about this this father
and daughter playing music together and traveling in this same
van across across the country, and.

Speaker 4 (51:22):
It was it was just very very touching.

Speaker 7 (51:24):
So I think I think the more and more people
use this kind of technology and the more it evolves,
I think we'll keep finding what works and what doesn't,
and what will hold up and what won't.

Speaker 6 (51:38):
Yeah, you know, you touched on something there that I
feel about about about VR, And sometimes I just feel
that they're using it as sort of like a gimmick
where it's like it's not really about a story. It's
about like it's an it's a pure experience. It's almost
like a roller coaster. Yeah, you get on the roller
coaster and you're not being you're not asking to be
told a story. It's just like, here's an experience. And

(51:59):
if that, honestly, if that's what somebody wants to do, hey,
and we're paratne because you know, I think, you know,
you can't really tell somebody, you know, if if that's
an experience that you want to have, hey, man, you know,
go for it. But like as far as storytelling goes,
I think VR is gonna fall short. I just I
just don't think see it actually where people are gonna
sit there. Honestly, Joe, if like maybe two hours, maybe

(52:22):
four hours, even with.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Like a video game. I'm talking about video games right now.

Speaker 6 (52:26):
If we're like if I had a video game with
a VR headset on with a controller in my hand
and it was like a first person shooter and I'm
you know, zombies are coming in. I honestly can't see anybody.
I can't see like a main part portion of the
population anywhere in the world wanting to do that for
more than like twenty minutes. I honestly, man, I think

(52:46):
VR has a lot of a lot of things that's
gonna share with three D. I think where VR is
gonna come into play. And I mentioned this with Jamie Buckner,
who was on the podcast few episodes ago, as we
were talking about this as well.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
I think the big thing with VR is.

Speaker 6 (52:58):
Is gonna be education, because yeah, because I actually used
to work in higher ed and I got to see
a lot of different stuff, and I think one of
the big things is gonna be is going to be
like you, your textbook isn't going to be an actual
book anymore.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
It's gonna be almost.

Speaker 6 (53:15):
Like a tablet that you know, when you're learning about
the human body, you're gonna well, now we're gonna kind
of get into ar. But but the there's just gonna
be an image of like, hey, we're studying the human brain,
and then image of the human brain will come up
out of this tablet and yeah, be able to actually
interact with it and touch and touch. Okay, well this
is this is your sarahbellum and this is gonna be

(53:35):
your uh, you know, frontal cortex and stuff like that,
and you're and you're like, oh, okay, that's where this
is in the brain and shit like that. And I
think that's where I think VR is going to be
very huge. By the way, you want to hear something
really cool that I was shown in higher ed and
it never got to I've never seen it anywhere, and
I don't think I don't think it's ever going to
be approved. They had a special paint that had nanotechnology

(53:57):
in it that actually blocked cell phones, so like if
you were like, yeah, and actually except for to dial
nine one one, that was the only thing that allowed
I never heard anything about it, since I honestly don't
think i'd get it passed because I could because probably
there's probably gonna be some issue where like it probably

(54:18):
well that they said it didn't it blocked nine it
didn't block nine one one, but they probably end up
did blocking nine one one or something and I couldn't
figure out how to get it passed or or maybe
some you know what I mean, because because if if
something ever did happen at a school, god forbid, you
would sit there and say, oh, well, they didn't have
their cell phones.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
Because then because of the pain on the walls.

Speaker 6 (54:37):
Yeah, so you don't want to be, you know, you
don't want to be in that situation and be like,
well the pain on the walls, you know, stop them.
But yeah, I I but but it's a cool idea though,
I mean, honestly, it sounds like a really good idea.
But but I but I get why it wouldn't be
too mainstream and maybe maybe they're gonna roll it out
later on. Maybe it's one of those things that takes

(54:57):
a few years to come out. But but uh, yeah,
that's where I see VR going. As far as VR
and movies go, I just don't think it's ever going
to happen. I honestly, I think we're at the point
now where. I mean, there's a video game that's out
right now that somebody was telling me like, hey, Dave,
look at this. You could make a movie out of
this someday. And I took a look at it and
I said, this thing is so far from a movie.

Speaker 3 (55:19):
I don't even know where to begin.

Speaker 6 (55:21):
And it was it was this big war game where
you can have these two armies battle into each other.
And I said, there's no there's no detail to the characters.
Every character has the same exact stabbing motion. I said,
it's really cool in scope, but I mean in when
you actually get down to it, it's not really It's
impressive from a coding standpoint, but from a movie standpoint,

(55:42):
I said, this would be that you know, people would
tune out after a minute. You know, there's no story
to it. There's no there's no there's nothing that's being told.
And you know that that's again when we when we're
differentiating between a story and an experience.

Speaker 7 (55:56):
Yeah, I think I think there's a way they could
still co exist. This though, because I do kind of
agree with you, I don't think it's going to take
over movies that all movie theaters are going to be
VR experiences. Or anything, because I think it does offer
a different thing. And the thing that I'm starting to
notice is that when you're directing a VR film, you
direct it more like a stage show or like a play,

(56:18):
because you with a movie you have the choice of
like I'm going to put the pick of the camera
here and this is what the audience sees, whereas like
with a VR film, you have to think more of
like what do I what do I want to lead
the audience toward, Like if I want to look over
this way, I'll have something to flash you over here,
you know, or if I I'll have them follow this

(56:39):
character as they walk across the way. And it presents
an interesting challenge that I think doesn't replace movies, but
could be a very interesting thing in and of itself.
And I have to say, when it comes to gaming
and stuff, there was a really cool game I tried
at one of these VR demonstrations where you were on
top of a castle and you had to knock over
these little Minecraft like figures from getting into your fort.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
And I have to say, after after.

Speaker 7 (57:04):
About a minute of being there with this bow and
arrow on top of this this tower, you know, shooting
at these little guys trying to get into your castle.
Not only do you first of all forget that you're
pressing a button that's in your hand to unleash this
bow and arrow. You kind of forget that you're not

(57:26):
in this environment. And and I think that's the thing
where I don't know if I entirely agree that I don't.
I don't think it will take over take over gam
maybe the only thing available, But it was such an
incredible experience for me to do this that if I
think if it's cheap enough, and I think it gets
if it gets into enough hands, I can't see a

(57:47):
future where this isn't a huge part of gaming personally.

Speaker 6 (57:53):
Yeah, I you know, I think it goes back to
how people want to play their games. I know a
lot of people want to like stream and you know,
and they can wear their Viera headset and stream at
the same time. I mean, look, for example, Paudie Pie
if he were to do something like that, you know,
I think also it depends upon Sometimes honestly, Joe, I

(58:14):
feel like I'm staring at a screen every second of
my day some days, which I probably am. I'm staring
at it either a laptop. I have four different laptops
I have to use. I have two cell phones, and
I'm just like when I drive, I also have an
onboard computer that's my GPS, and also collect cell phone
stuff for me, and it's just like, you know, I

(58:36):
just I don't have to look at that. But like
driving is probably the only time LEFTO I'm not staring
at a screen, and I'm just you know, do I
really want to do I really want to you know,
just keep staring at a screen that's now gonna be
like two inches from my face. You know, I actually
played when I played that Batman game, it was actually
for for PS four. It was actually really cool to
look around the back cave and everything like that, and
you know, take a look at this or that, and

(58:58):
and my friend had that exercise bike thing where you
can put the VR headset on.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
You can you know you're in the Alps or whatever.
Really cool.

Speaker 6 (59:06):
But I just wonder if it's something where you're gonna
want to use it every day for the moment. And
I know those people out there who would use it
every day, but for other people, I wonder if it's
just something that would What I'm trying to say is
I wonder if VR would end up just becoming a
real niche market, almost like three D became what I
think four K Blu Rays might become. Because I hear

(59:27):
four K Blu rays and I and I honestly, you know,
I mean, how many people if I if I gave them,
like and you know a screen I said, pick out
the four K version, could actually find it if it
was the same TV with the same players with this,
you know what I mean? Yeah, And it's just because
I mean, if it's not shot in four K, I mean,
it's not gonna look like four K. I mean, honestly,

(59:47):
Mad Max Fury road shot in two K. I see
a four K release of it, and I'm like, why
it's not even it wasn't even shot in four K.
I mean, I know they could do upscaling and stuff
like that, but I mean, really.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show, you.

Speaker 6 (01:00:10):
Know what I mean, Like, I think a lot of
this stuff's going to end up becoming a niche sort
of market, if you that's just my prediction.

Speaker 7 (01:00:17):
Oh VR will definitely have to cross that hurdle very
similar to what you said like three D, where I
think one of the big reasons three D didn't catch
on as big as it did in a home market is.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
Because of the glasses situation.

Speaker 7 (01:00:29):
You know, if you wanted to get together, because like
I saw like demonstrations.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
As like three D sports games, and those were really cool.

Speaker 7 (01:00:35):
It just looked like these little tiny people on your
screen running around. But you know, like if someone's trying
to get together a group of friends and watch like
a like a basketball game or a football game or
something like that, I highly doubt they're going to want
to put on a bunch of glasses and fiddle with
that and all, let's get the settings right and stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:00:54):
So I think you're right to a certain degree.

Speaker 7 (01:00:56):
I think if VR wants to not just become that
little niche thing, they're gonna have to find a way
to a make it more financially available to everybody, and
b find a way that maybe they won't have to
have these big clunky headsets on the entire time and
make it more of a maybe a more integrated experience
where it seemed like less hassle.

Speaker 6 (01:01:16):
You know, yes, that is that is exactly right, man,
with those three D glasses. I had a friend of
mine who actually bought a three D TV and he
bought four pairs of glasses. He bought it a one
black Friday he had. You know, we went over there,
we put on the glasses. We watched Avatar. Well it's
really cool, and I was like, you know, but after it,
I'm like, you know, by the end, unless like, I'd
rather just watch a regular two D movie Like I honestly, man,

(01:01:38):
I'm old school in that method where I'm just like,
I'd rather watch an eighties horror slasher like Jason Jason
Friday The Thirteenth Part three. He tried, They tried to
make that three D and I was like, yeah, it's
cool and everything, where you know, the arrows are coming
at you with the one shot and this and that
and the other thing. But I'm like, at the end,
you know, somebody once told me, good three D goes in,
bad three D comes out. So if you're constantly like

(01:02:00):
dodging stuff, that's you know, okay, that's almost like a
wake up to the audience or that's like a cool
effect or whatever. But good three D, like Avatar was,
it goes in and you can actually just see as
far as you can actually as the eye can see
literally because it's just an immersive world back there, you
know what I mean. And and you know, that's one
of the things why I actually did like Avatar.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
I actually was dating a girl at the time. We
went to go see it, and she goes.

Speaker 6 (01:02:22):
That was terrible. I was like, I was like, shut up,
what do you know about it? That's like, shut out,
what do you know about movies? I said, I'll tell
you if it's good or not. No, I'm just kidding
around you. But but but but uh but she said,
you know, she didn't like it. We were talking about it,
and I was like, you know, I'm I'm a sucker
for James Cameron. But uh, but just to get back
that we were talking about, you know, with with with

(01:02:44):
all this stuff, you know, I just think yet having
people having to put on like headsets and stuff like that,
it it becomes like a almost like a like you know,
because some people are gonna say, oh, Greg, I put
on this headset again, or I gotta put it away
and you gotta find it again, or it's just like
something like Dave misplace it, or you know what I mean.
It's just more things that are there moving parts to
a situation.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:03:05):
Yeah, I think it's a very akin to something.

Speaker 7 (01:03:08):
I mean, it could go either way because I mean
look at something like a like a computer tablet, right
like like when the iPad came out, people were scoffing
because people been trying to pitch tablets for years, I
mean been there have been tablets that came out in
the nineties and it just never connected with the public.
You know, it just wasn't. They were too pricey, they
were too clunky. But Apple managed to make something that

(01:03:31):
people wanted and found a usage for. They brought back
an old idea and made it in a way that
was consumable and made it in a way that people
really really liked. So yeah, I completely agree. I think
with VR and I think there are I agree that
there are some good uses of three D, but I
don't think there was enough of a of a of

(01:03:54):
a difference. Like I think one movie that used it
really well that I saw in three D was Pixar's
Up Up, because like at the beginning of the film,
the three D was very flat because you're living in
his life where he's cooped up and he's just this
old guy, this widower, and and he's lonely, and then
like when he's out there in the middle of South America,

(01:04:14):
like gets really deep and he's up in the clouds and.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
It feels big and vast.

Speaker 7 (01:04:19):
So I think people are gonna have to use VR
like that, you know, Like I said, don't just tell
a story about Look, you're.

Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
Dying and now you're in a coffin, Like take the.

Speaker 7 (01:04:27):
Gimmick out of it and really focus on the exciting
storytelling potential of this medium and what can be.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
Done with it.

Speaker 7 (01:04:34):
And and that doesn't mean you have to play it safe,
but be smart about how you use it and use
it in a way that people connect to.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
Yeah, jactly, right, Joe. It always comes back to the story.

Speaker 6 (01:04:49):
It always comes back to you know, what kind of
story are you telling and what what kind of emotional
core are we going with here?

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (01:04:57):
Because people have to care about these characters. They have
to be you know, not sympathetic, but empathetic. We have
to empathize with them, and you know, and with the
story you're telling, you know, it's just we have to
become hooked. And that's why I always get pissed off
Joe and people say, you got to hook them in
the first ten pages. No, you have to hook them
the whole freaking story, not in the first ten pages.
Maybe the reader, maybe the maybe some reader, the gatekeeper

(01:05:20):
I have to hook for the first ten pages he
or she passes. But from when I gather, most most
gatekeepers who are script readers who have to read those scripts,
they have to read everything cover to cover. They can't
read the first ten pages and say see if you know,
forget this and and and you know what I mean,
And they have to write a report about it afterwards
they have through their weekend reads and as well, and

(01:05:41):
from what I gather, they have to read every script
cover to cover. So you have to hook them the
whole script. And you know, you have to hook them
the whole whole time, no matter what you're doing. And
you know, as you talk about the experiences, that too
has a hook to it. You know, even if you
write a roller coaster, there has to be something special
about it that sets it apart, whether you put all
the extra loops in, whether they're twists and turns, whether
you sit down with the Superman roller coaster, all that

(01:06:02):
good stuff, and yeah, I mean you know so uh yeah,
you know, everything has to have you know, it's it's speciality,
it's it's you know, what makes it special. And you know,
because Joe, I mean we you know, we've been talking
for about over an hour now, and I want to ask,
you know, Joe, is there anything we could talk about
that you wanted to discuss now, or anything you wanted
to say to put a period at the end of
this whole conversation.

Speaker 7 (01:06:24):
Uh? No, I guess just as a whole like it's
it's really good to talk about this kind of stuff
with people who who share your interests and and also
care about creating and and I think it's important to
to connect with with people who are doing stuff similar
to us.

Speaker 4 (01:06:42):
And I think.

Speaker 7 (01:06:43):
You just you do that so wonderfully on your show
and and you create this conversation because there are all
these people out there who are making such cool stuff
and and it's so cool that you bring a light
to those things. And I just want to thank you
for for creating that conversation.

Speaker 6 (01:07:03):
Oh, thank you so much, Joe. I try my best,
I you know, with it with this podcast and everything
like that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
And Uh, one.

Speaker 6 (01:07:09):
Of the reasons I started this was because I wanted
to actually talk to filmmakers out there, and uh, I
got to meet great no great people like you. I've
got to you know, and I've I honestly've got to
meet so many great people. And uh, I just look
at it as like this is the tip of the iceberg,
and I actually want to just keep moving forward with
this and in a lot of different ways, and you know,

(01:07:29):
and start doing a couple more things and people people. Actually,
you know, not to segue too far away, but somebody
once said to me, what are you working on now?
You know, you haven't worked on anything in probably a
few years, And honestly, it's it's I've been taking a
step back to take to take two steps forward. And
you know that's something I'm working on now is I'm
working on a ton of stuff and uh a lot
of cool podcasting stuff as well that uh uh that

(01:07:52):
I've been talking a few people about and hopefully, you know,
I'm gonna hope, hopefully do a bunch of stuff with
that soon. And but I also got a couple of
other things playing. But uh, but Joe, thank you so much,
you know for coming on. And where where can people
find you out online?

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
Uh?

Speaker 7 (01:08:05):
If you go to Pogjoe dot com, p O g
I E Joe dot com. Uh, you can see all
the things that I've talked about. We have our Prism
trailer on there. There's I think I just put a
thing about the Murder Mystery game. Uh, there's links to
our podcast and we're on all different kinds of podcasting
apps and sources and everything. My YouTube stuff is on there.

(01:08:26):
So I want to see any of the stuff I've
mentioned at all during the show, that's probably the best
place to go.

Speaker 6 (01:08:34):
And I will link to all of that in the
show notes. Everyone, Joe does some really really cool stuff.
And I really I like that nickname too, Pogi Joe,
and you know, and uh, and he does some really
cool stuff and I'm gonna link to that all in
the show notes. Joe Kolalski pog Joe. I want to
say thank you so much for coming on my friend.

Speaker 4 (01:08:55):
Hey, thank you so much. It's it's always a joy
to talk to you.

Speaker 6 (01:08:59):
Oh, thank you you. And you know, I appreciate at
least one person wants to talk to me, but thanks
you so much. Joe notes, it's really great and honestly, man,
I can't wait to see what you're gonna do next,
and I also will introduce you to that guy who
runs that film festival. Right now, I will shoot, I
will make a Facebook message introduction and get you two talking.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
Thank you. That would be brilliant. I would really like
to talk to him.

Speaker 6 (01:09:23):
Sure, no problem, Joe, Joe, have a great day and
I will talk to you very soon, my friend.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
All right, you want to thank Dave so much for
doing such a great job on this episode. If you
want to get links to anything we spoke about in
this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof
Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash for twenty three. Thank you
so much for listening. Guys, as always, keep on writing
no matter what.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
Screenwriting dot tv.

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