July 10, 2025 • 56 mins
Cynthia Hill, a filmmaker from North Carolina, discussed her journey from pharmacy school to filmmaking, highlighting her documentaries "Tobacco Money," "Private Violence," and the upcoming eight-part series "Road to Race Day" on NASCAR. She emphasized the importance of storytelling and character development, sharing her experiences with funding through foundations and the challenges of balancing art and business. Cynthia's work often bridges gaps between different communities, such as her documentaries on tobacco farming and farm workers. She also discussed the unique access she had to NASCAR teams, particularly Hendrick Motorsports, and the impact of her films on audience understanding.
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Speaker 3 (01:41):
My next guest is a filmmaker from North Carolina. Her
TV series As Chef's Life is now in its fifth season.
The HBO documentary Private Violence and PBS documentary Tobacco Money
Feeds My Family are just two of the credits to
under her belt. Her current project is at eight part
docuseriies Road to Race Day, which follows Hendricks Motorsports, the
(02:04):
most winning team in professional stock car history, and it's
all going to be about this twenty seventeen NASCAR season.
And she also teamed up with Peter Berg's film forty
five to sell this thing to Complex Networks, which is unbelievable.
We're going to talk all about how she did all
that good stuff with guests Cynthia Hill.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
It's easy to access the equipment. There's not that hurdle
of it just being too expensive for people to access.
I mean, you can shoot a film on your iPhone now,
so if you really have a story to tell, you
can pretty much tell it no matter what your socioeconomic
(02:43):
situation is, which means that there are a lot more
people out there telling stories. And again, it's still trying
to get the stories out there that I think probably
is the biggest hurdle. Not necessarily making it, but getting
in out there to the masses still becomes a bit
of a hurdle.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, yeah, very very true. And that's something also we
touch upon the podcast. But you know, before you and
I talked about you know, distribution stuff like that, which
I'm actually very interested in hearing your point of view with.
I wanted to ask, you know, Cynthia, how you got
involved in the film industry. You know, so the question
I have to start with is did you go to
film school? Cynthia.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
I did not go to the film school. I went
to pharmacy school. So the natural logical transition or the
next path from pharmacy school is filmmaking, right, It's you know,
I grew up in a really remote area of eastern
North Carolina, you know, agricultural based economy. And the thing
(03:45):
that you would do if you went to college is
you would for a woman in particular, as you would
do nursing or teaching. So me, even going into pharmacy
school was kind of risky and and I really didn't
know what I wanted to do, to be honest with you,
I didn't have a particular calling. But I knew that
(04:07):
the pharmacist in town made the most money, or seemed
to make the most money, and so I thought that
at least he had one of the biggest houses. So
I thought, you know, if that's that was going to
be my profession. And then when you look at the
starting salaries of undergraduate degrees, especially when I was going
in the late eighties, the pharmacist was number one. And
(04:27):
so I just was ready to get out of a
poor town and make some money. And so I was
going to be a pharmacist. But that was not what
was in store for me.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
You know, you mentioned about the link between pharmacists and filmmaker,
and I was and you know what, I can actually
see it, you know, because you know, I've known some
people who've gone in the in the midfield, and they've
gone right into filmmaking. I actually had a friend of
mine who was a spinal surgeon, and he was in
the morning before surgery. He sat at his kitchen table
(05:01):
and he was writing a TV pilot and.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
Basically, yeah, it's surprising that right brain, left brain kind
of thing, and the healthcare profession I think is more
maybe artistic then we know, or at least maybe some
of the folks that are in it maybe so, I
don't know, but for me, it was definitely a strange
kind of diversion when it happened.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
But I wasn't necessarily the best pharmacy student. I wasn't
necessarily engaged, but you know, I was out there. I
was looking for something, and I met these folks working
on this TV show. They were traveling to Chapel Hill.
I went to UNC Chapel Hill and they were doing
(05:48):
this accident reconstruction show that was that type of show
that was really popular in the early nineties. And it
just seems so fascinating and way more fascinating than being
in a pharmacy accounting pills all day long. So I thought,
you know, I'm gonna hang out with these people, and
I ended up going out to LA because I made
some good friends and spending some time in LA and
(06:10):
I would just hang out with these people. And storytelling
was not necessarily something that I thought that I was
good at, because I was not a good writer. But
if you're in the South, storytelling is just ingrained in
you because you hear your grandmama, your granddaddy, everybody tells stories,
and so you're just it's just a part of who
(06:32):
you are. And so I had this knack for telling
stories that I did not know was there because I
was just driven into math and science because I was
obviously good at those things. And I found this whole
world that really was intriguing. And I came back to
(06:52):
pharmacy school the next year and for every project I
could possibly do papers, presentations, I would make videos for
it instead of actually doing the thing I was supposed
to do. And for my rotation when I was working
in different locations, like I had a retail rotation, and
instead of doing a paper which you were supposed to do,
(07:12):
I made two commercials for the pharmacy for a local cable.
So I found my niche in pharmacy school in this
really strange sort of way, and the dean of the
pharmacy school pulled me aside and was like, Cynthia, you're
not exactly the best pharmacy student, but you got something,
(07:34):
you got some talent here, and I want to try
to help you. And so he encouraged me to go
to graduate school at Auburn University in the pharmacy administration department,
which sounds like another kind of strange thing, but they
had a production studio in the graduate school there, and
any communications department would have salivated at the equipment that
(07:56):
we had access to, but because we had access to
pharmaceutical money, we had all this equipment, and they were
doing this health education media and they were one of
the first schools, especially pharmacy school, that was getting into
interactive healthcare. And so I found a surprising home there
(08:20):
and another sort of entree into deeper into the television world.
And I did this study with Primetime Live in New
York City, where we, as the pharmacy school, took the
study component of medication dispensing errors and we helped Primetime
Live do an undercover report on pharmacists making dispensing mistakes.
(08:44):
And so I flew up to New York and spent
a lot of time up there, and I became the
undercover shopper because I could control the medication, and I
became a part of that study. And then after that
I was just really completely just spoiled. I was not
going to end up in a pharmacy accounting pills after that.
So then I had to figure out how to become
(09:04):
a filmmaker.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I was going to ask you when you were in
the mystery shop, or if you had like a hidden
camera somewhere or something.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
I had somebody that was behind me with a camera.
I was mined. And then I had my companion had
a camera in his wig or in his hat, depending
on what set up we were using that day. So
it was this little girl from this rural town in
eastern North Carolina was not in eastern North Carolina anymore.
(09:34):
It was rather funny.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I imagine those there's hard copy or thre's twenty twenty
things where they would have those hidden cameras, and you know,
and again that's sort of like now, how everything's changed.
You know, cameras have become so miniaturized.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
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and now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
You know, you can have your phone out and that's
a camera. You have these little spy cameras that I
see sometimes online. Uh you know, cause imagine when you
when you shot that was it? When was it one
of those big sort of like mini DV cameras or
or something or something different. Well, it had a.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Big pack, so you had a backpack, but the lens
like he was able to bring it up into his
wig or his hat, so it was easier to hide.
But it was definitely a much larger rig than what
you would find today.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So and you know that that's where I imagine there
had to be a lot of like creativity, a lot
of ingenuity to hide that, you know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (10:39):
So, uh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
So when you were talking about storytelling, I mean just
to sort of take a step back, I mean you
were talking about growing up and in the South and
and you uh and you were you heard stories from
you know, your your grandmother. What were some of the
things that you like really stuck out with you, like
in terms of story I mean, was it was it
maybe how a person was telling it, or maybe what
was it some of the characters involved? I mean, because
(11:03):
I imagine a lot of that is what really sort
of molded your, uh, your way of storytelling, that that
you for when you make your own projects.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
Yeah, it's definitely. There are a lot of characters in
the South, so I gravitate to eccentric personalities. I think too,
It's that's one thing that you know, being in the South,
you're never short of somebody who's really interesting. You know,
they're all around you. And I think too, like my
(11:35):
my grandma's brother, uncle James, he was always good for
stories and they're always long and elaborate, and I think
I maybe inherited a bit of that and it takes
you a while to get to the point, but they're
always really good stories. And I have sort of this
this problem of ending stories. My first film that I made, Uh,
(12:00):
one of the my favorite compliments, I guess you could say,
is from Da Penny Baker. He said he was using
it in his classroom, but he's like, it's a really
good film with all of its three endings. So it's like, yeah,
I know what you're saying. So actually ending something is
(12:23):
difficult for me, you know, wrapping it up and coming
to a close, you know, because there's always something else
you can say that, you know, you helps make your point.
So trying to get it all in there has been
a challenge for me and something that has taken me
a while to to perfect, which I still haven't. But
(12:44):
you know, being able to concisely tell a story without
rambling on is a bit difficult for Southerners.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I think that's fine, Cynthia. I mean, did you see
Lord of the Rings, Return of the King. I mean
that had a lot of that had like seven different endings,
you know that just.
Speaker 5 (13:03):
No, I remember being to the best of them with
my endings, my multiple endings.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
I remember being in the theater with that movie and
people were like, oh is that it? Oh no, there's more,
and then they kept getting up and down. I was
it was like either this either either there was something,
this was a unique way of storytelling, or Peter Jackson
was just trolling everybody. Uh you know, but uh, but
you know where he.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Is in his career. I mean, he can keep going
if he's got something else to say, So I think
that that's kind of it too. You know, you have
the luxury at certain at a certain point where you
know you can keep telling the story you want to tell.
But I didn't that with my first film, even though
I thought I did. So yeah, and I.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Want to, you know, get into into talking about all
your films too, And I just want to touch one
more thing about storytelling, you know, because I love hearing
like all the different unique point of views and everything
about storytelling. And you know, there was a movie that
was out recently I didn't see. I think it was
maybe out a year or two ago, called Blue Ruin,
and the tagline really stuck out to me because I
think it was it was something along the lines of
(14:11):
a Southern revenge tale or the Southern Gothic revenge tale.
And I sort of kind of, you know, stuck with
me because I started to see a couple other articles,
you know about the the how the the Southern revenge
tale is kind of different. And and basically, you know,
as we tell stories, you know, you know, you tell
me it's a story, I tell you a story. There
there's all different components to them, and usually a story
(14:34):
is to reveal a transformation. You know, Usually there's you know,
something inside you know, of the of the society, of
the culture, that the of ideals that they hold true
or ideals that they really value. So you know, and
it's different too because you know, for people, you know,
I have a lot of listeners who aren't from America
and they still don't understand. You know, America is huge.
(14:56):
I mean, this country is absolutely huge, and we have
so many different, you know, different regions. You have the
East Coast, you have the West Coast, you have the Midwest,
you have you know, the Northeast, you have this, you
have the South. I mean, all of these different ways
of telling stories, and you know, all these unique points
of view. So, you know, Cynthia, when when you take
your movies out, do you notice that, you know, you
(15:18):
tell the you know different, do you notice that maybe
your stories have that that sort of like unique vantage
point but it's something that's sort of there's like a
parallel that can be drawn through all all through all
different types of regions and stuff like that.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean I've never really looked
at it that way. I do feel very much like
it is southern. But what does southern mean? You know?
I think for me and when it comes to storytelling,
it's about character. It's about character, and it's also about
the small moments. And you know, I when I am
in the field now in working in the documentary medium,
(15:56):
it's you know, I don't necessarily have have a set agenda.
You know, you go out to if you've got something
that you know, you're making a film about a certain
topic or whatever, you've got some agenda. You kind of
know what world you're entering. But I like to be
(16:17):
fluid in wait for things to happen and for characters
to reveal themselves, and moments that let the characters become
human just happen and unfold. And so I spend a
lot of time with nothing happening, waiting for those moments
to happen. And a lot of what I say, especially
when I work with new editors, is that what ends
(16:39):
up on the screen with me a lot of the
times are things that other I feel like other filmmakers
or maybe other editors, especially like in older kinds of
TV dot formats, where that stuff would end up on
the editing room floor typically. But I like those moments
that are subtle, that take the audience. It's a little
(17:01):
bit more time. Hey, you know, you've got to pay
closer attention to them and those things that are going
to build so that by the time I make my
point I have teased it out a long time and
so that it becomes even more meaningful to the audience
by the time you see that revealed. And so that's
what I'm doing when I'm in the field a lot
(17:22):
is just waiting for those moments. And when you're with
me and I work with new folks in the field,
they think I'm not doing anything because I look like
I'm not doing anything, but I'm listening and I'm playing,
paying close attention and waiting for that moment. And usually
that moment happens when everybody kind of lets their guard down,
(17:44):
or maybe you know, the moment after another moment is
usually the moment that I'm after. So it's kind of
it's hard to explain, but when you add all those
things together, it just really helps with it, you know,
it helps with the really building who those characters are
(18:07):
that you're with and those narratives because those small moments,
I feel like are they're really the important things that
are happening.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Oh and I see exactly what you mean too. It's
like a slow burn, you know, and rather than sort
of like the fast paced sort of MTV style of
sort of editing or you know, and honestly, I've seen
you know, that's good to have because I don't ever
want to see where filmmaking or anything becomes homogenized where
everybody shoots and edits and et cetera the same way.
(18:35):
And you know, just just as we get started talking
about your career, Cynthia, you know, you mentioned how do
you go from pharmacist to filmmaker? So you know what
was what was this step that you took so that
way you said, Look, I'm not going to do pharmacy
tech work anymore. I'm going to do filmmaking full time.
So you know what was that step that you took?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Well, until this year, I still was employed by Walmart
as a pharmacist, so I was canned unceremoniously as of late.
I'd only worked two days, so it was, uh, it
was coming. But it's I and just not that I
(19:14):
have I apologize up front. I have a tendency to
answer the question that I want to answer. So I'm
going going to backstep just a little bit. Pharmacy to
me gave me permission to experiment. It gave me that
solid foundation and that financial security that I needed to
(19:36):
take risks. And so I knew I could always go
and work as a pharmacist, So it allowed me to
not go and have to work on other people's projects
if I didn't want to. You know, I wasn't out
there using that creative side of my brain to you know,
do ad work or.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
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Speaker 5 (20:05):
Do something that wasn't coming from inside of me in
that medium, So I could devote all of that energy
to working on what I wanted to work on. So
that's what I've always done, and it's also I mean,
it's been really great for me because I have a
very distinctive style and you know when you see something
(20:26):
that I work on. But the downfall is that I
do create my stuff kind of in a vacuum, and
I don't have a lot of mentors and stuff like
that because I've never worked for anybody else. I've always
just done what I wanted to do. But when I
first started out, you know, I had this one story
(20:46):
that was burning inside of me that I knew I
had to tell, and that was the story of tobacco
farming and growing up in the South and in this
region of the country. Tobacco was the one crop that
all farmers and families could rely on. And yes, it
kills people, but it also put sent a lot of
(21:06):
us to college and created opportunities that would not have
otherwise existed, and also kept small farms intact in the
South when when it was no longer possible or viable
with other commodities.
Speaker 7 (21:22):
So I had this this this strange relationship with this
crop that kills people, but it also is something that
I had a lot of uh fondness for.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
You know. It was a lot of memories with the
family working and it was very much a family kind
of business and operation where we would we would help
each other, you know, harvest the crop every summer. And
that's what I did up until I went to college.
And so I knew that that was a story I
wanted to tell because I could see the demise of
(22:00):
that small family farm happening in front of my eyes,
and I had to tell that story. And so when
I first started out, it was like, I'm just going
to tell this story. I didn't consider myself an artist
or a filmmaker. I just knew I was going to
do that. So I was going to raise ten thousand
dollars and film for one season, and that was going
(22:22):
to be my film. But instead I filmed for over
three years and raised over one hundred thousand dollars, and
it took me another two years to edit the film,
to make my first film, and I still couldn't call
myself a filmmaker after that. I didn't have enough confidence
in myself. But that began my path, and each time
(22:45):
I start a film, I swear I'm going to make
it in less than five years. But I still have
a hard time making a film in less than five years.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
So maybe one day.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
So let me ask you said that when you decided
to raise that much money, you know that that's sort
of like the million dollar question. No plan intended for
a lot of filmmakers is they always say, you know,
what steps do you go to raise funds? Some people
say it's crowdfunding, some people will say it's private equity.
So you know, what what methods did you use to
to to sort of, you know, raise these funds to
(23:18):
help make your documentary.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
Yeah, for this one, it was all foundation money and
the first two grant proposals I sent out were funded,
which is completely one unheard of. I had already shot
some so I had something to show, you know, So
I was I was able to show proof of concept
(23:41):
and what I was trying to do. But if I
had not had that kind of success out of the gate,
I probably wouldn't have continued because it would have been
just too depressing. But then after those first two I
probably probably the next twenty five were not funded. So,
you know it, this is really one of those things
(24:01):
where it's it's so difficult and there's no magic answer
to it. You know, there's one of those. If it's
a social issue film, you know, you can try the
foundation route. If it's you know, you can try the
crowdfunding route. And I've done that twice now and I
never want to do that again. It says it's a
(24:24):
special kind of torture crowdfunding, or at least you know,
the process of actually, you know, during the campaign is torture.
And then it's even more torture when you have to
fulfill all this bullshit that you've promised people during your
crowdfunding campaign. You actually have to make good on all
these promises. So it's really, you know, there's no magic answer.
(24:48):
The equity thing. I still have a hard time with that,
I've had this one really amazing woman who's been trying
to give me money for this project that I'm currently
working on, and I I don't I don't know how
I feel about that, because you know, once you have
somebody that's invested in you, then it's like you feel
like you got to make money and too you feel
(25:09):
like you got somebody looking over your shoulder. And so
I'm contemplating that now. You know, I'm to a point
in my career that I need to be able to
do that. You know, this last project that we're the
I have a development deal with HBO and some development
money from Sundance for it, but I need to be
(25:30):
able to have some additional funds in place before I
can go back to try to show what the project
really is. And so what do I do in the meantime,
Because it's not really a social issue film that I
can go out and do the foundation route again. So
I'm sitting here thinking I really need to call that
lady back and take her money. It's hard, h this
(25:54):
whole legal thing with you know, sale securities, bloody blah
blah blah. But yeah, it's you know, I feel like
I've got to grow up and and you know, this
is this is my business now, this is this is
how I make a living. I am to that point
where I actually can say that, and I have a
(26:14):
lot of folks that now work with me or for me,
and you know, I've got to also be mindful of
their their well being too, not just my own.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yeah. Yeah, it is tricky. I mean, you know, that's
something we really talk a lot about on this podcast,
is you know, the whole legal aspect of taking people's money. Uh,
you know, private equity, crowdfunding, all those different routes and uh,
you know, and I've heard everything from hey we did
it for free, by uh. I mean that's what I
did too. You know, I didn't go to film school.
My first student film was me making a feature film
(26:47):
and we borrowed every set, everything, everything was all borrowed.
Uh you know, don't you know a friend of mine
had a house we could shoot in, and we've had
that all the way to you know, very expensive movies
on here. So you know, it's just always interesting to
hear you know everything, uh, you know, all those two
extremes and everything between, and you know, as we talk
more about you know, making documentaries and everything else. You know,
(27:08):
making it into a living is something special, Cynthia, because
you know that that takes a lot of hard work,
It takes a lot of talent, it takes a lot
of patience, uh, you know, and and a lot of times,
you know, you know, filmmakers maybe make one film or
two and they get kind of burned out from the
whole process.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Well that's it's true, you know, And I think I'm
struggling with that right now. You know, is it a
business or is it still a passion? You know, so
trying to straddle still wanting to do this work because
it's something that you know, burns inside of me versus
like just making content because I've got a lot of
mouths to feed and I don't want to be in
(27:48):
that place, you know. And it's new for me to
manage people, you know, because I I have finally accepted
that I'm an artist that comes with artist tendencies, which
means that I'm not great at necessarily manage people. And
so but you know, when you have this kind of
operation where we have right now, where this past year
(28:11):
we produced an eight part series that were hour long.
Each was an hour long, so eight hours of that
and then another ten part half hour series. We're producing
a lot of content and it takes a lot of
people to pull that off. And you know, we're doing
this in a part of the country that doesn't have
(28:32):
the infrastructure and you know, the the depth of talent
and stuff. So you know, we're training our own where
we're making it work even when the odds are completely
against us. And that in and of itself, to me
is something that I'm really proud of and proud of
the team that we have in place for that. But
(28:54):
then how do you keep that going? You know, how
much of inside of me has to come out to
keep that that those creative juices going, because so far
that those stories are all coming from me, you know,
like just the creative part of it, you know, putting
it together, and that is really that's hard to keep
(29:17):
that going and to fill that burden of that, And
then like, is that really what I want to do
moving forward? Or do I want to like quit all
that and go back and you know, make a narrative film,
which I've been contemplating for a long time. So you know,
it's I'm struggling a bit. I don't know if it's
midlife bullshit mess. But yeah, you know, you the success
(29:41):
is great, but it's also like, is this really what
I want? And you know, are we are we happy?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
Lord, I'm in therapy.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Yeah, this podcast is like therapy for a lot of people,
myself included. But uh no, I'm just joking, cynthy, but no,
it's this is what it is. It's a discussion, you know,
uh and that's you know, some of the things that
we discussed on this podcast is stuff you don't hear
other you know, any other place. And what I mean
by that is, you know, the things that affect filmmakers,
things that they go through, stuff like that. You know,
(30:21):
too many podcasts, too many articles. They they paint either
a rosy picture or they paint this very bleak picture,
and and it's really, you know, it's not really one
of the other. It's usually in between, you know, the
ones that paint the rosy picture like oh, yeah, I
submitted to Sundance and we wanted ten billion dollars and
then we're all rich now, and the and the and
the the bleak pictures like oh, I try to submit
(30:43):
the Sun Dance, that's all bullshit. I couldn't get any
other film festival. There was all bullshit. And I thought
up on YouTube and nobody watched it. And now I'm,
you know, one hundred grand in the hole and I
hate my life and you know, so it's kind of like,
you know, trying to find this happy medium because I
believe me. I you know, when I started doing this,
even before I started doing this podcast, I I met
(31:05):
so many different people doing so many different things, on
so many different film sets, and I heard so many
different stories about successes and failures, successes and failures. And
that's why I wanted to do this podcast, you know,
because it's it's I've noticed a common thread among a
lot of filmmakers. That's why I started this podcast. So,
you know, when you made your tobacco documentary about you know,
(31:26):
obviously it's focused on the South, you know, but you
you kept going and you turned it into other projects.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So after after your your the documentary aired, you know
and was completed, you know what, you know, what what
was your next step in continuing your filmography?
Speaker 5 (31:43):
Well, I was helping work on another film at the
same time. Some other film makers here in Durham, and
so it's I was. That was February one, which was
about the Greensboro lunch counter sit in. So I was
able to see a little bit about, you know what
else could be opportunities. And then this story came along
(32:06):
as I was finishing up the tobacco film that was
about the farm workers that were coming from Mexico. And
can we start that over again because I feel like
the February one thing is kind of like left field.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Sure, absolutely, we were talking.
Speaker 5 (32:24):
Yeah, I'll just tell about the tobacco. I mean, I'll
ask me the question again.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Sure, sure, no problem. So so you know, you kept
on going. So you know, after you made your tobacco documentary,
you know what was the next step, do you you
you made to continue your filmography?
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Well, when I was finishing up tobacco money fees my family,
one of the farmers that I had been profiling was
getting farm workers from Mexico in this guest worker program.
And he got farm workers that We're being bussed directly
from Mexico straight to his farm. They would open the
(33:08):
door from the bus and they would get out on
his farm in North Carolina. And I was like, WHOA,
what the hell is that? You know, when I was
growing up, I remember when we had the first Mexicans
that showed up in our community to harvest cucumbers, and
that was the first time we locked our doors because
(33:34):
the Mexicans were in town. And so there's this thing
with we don't want foreigners in our communities doing our work,
is taking our work, But then we are actively busting
folks in to do the work that we don't want
to do. And I thought, oh my goodness, this is
(33:55):
so fascinating. And so then I spent the next two
years filming a story of these farm workers that were
coming from Mexico in this guestworker program. I was able
to find a farm in North Carolina that would let
me film, and that in and of itself was a
huge hurdle because there was so much suspicion about this
(34:21):
program and folks trying to do this gotcha kind of
filmmaking at the time and still to this day. And
so getting a farmer comfortable with us being there to
do a story about farm workers was really was not
an easy feed. But when we finally latched onto this
one guy who was willing to do willing to let
(34:43):
us stay on his farm.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
It was.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
So eye opening to spend a whole season with this
one farm worker. Several but we ended up going back
home with two of them, and we took that bus
ride back home to Mexico on bus after bus to
the back of a pickup truck to get to his
home back in his village in Durango, Mexico. And you know,
(35:13):
it's not that they know, especially for this guest worker program,
they're not trying to move to to the US. You know,
they were here to make money to bring back home.
And you know, I'd always hear these things about the
excuses for the horrible living conditions that the farm workers
(35:34):
had to live in, about how so much better than
what they got back in Mexico, and that how we're
you know, we're doing them so to favor. But then
when we got back to his home in Mexico, he
lived in this beautiful villa that it was very modest
but had a lot of outdoor space, and it was
on the side you could see his cows often the horizon,
(35:57):
and and it's just like these are people who want
to support their family, just like these farmers want to
support their families, and it was important for me to
after telling the farmers story, to also tell that farm
worker story. And I couldn't not do that, you know.
I felt like it was a disservice just to tell
(36:18):
the farmer's story without completing that that story. So that
was my second film.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
So when when you released that, that film you sort
of back to back with you tell the farmers, you know,
the farmer's story, you tell the workers story. You know.
How was that Did that change any perceptions?
Speaker 5 (36:39):
You hope that it does. I mean, I think that
the folks that that saw it, you know, that's really
the key is like getting folks to watch stuff. And
I think the one of the main accomplishments for me
and that with that film was that we had this
one screening where we had farm workers and farmers in
the room at the same time, watching the film at
(37:00):
the same time, and it was it was kind of funny,
like there would be moments where they would laugh at
the same things and they could see the humanity in
each other. And to me, that's what it was about,
you know, trying to bridge that gap. And I feel
like I do that quite a bit as trying to
(37:20):
bridge that gap. Of understanding. And you know, I'm not
I don't consider myself an activist filmmaker per se, but
I do tend to tackle topics that are important and
or at least I like to, but I like to
do it with story and really about understanding the you know,
(37:42):
the human condition and you know, really getting into characters
and understanding the plight and trying to walk in their
shoes for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yeah, and I think that's something that you know, a
lot of filmmakers have sort of missed, not all the filmmakers,
but producers and TV show owners. And you know, you
tune in because you want to see characters. You know,
you see these characters and these sort of you know,
predicaments and in you know, a couple episodes ago, I
interviewed Rna Sheer, and Randa Shear was you know, on
you the host of Usays Up All Night. And you know,
(38:16):
something I spoke to her about was to into in
today's sort of uh, you know, entertainment environment, a lot
of the people when they start putting money into things,
whether it be a TV show, you know, everything becomes
very mechanical. Now everything has an algorithm. Oh well, hey,
you know what you say this script and don't deviate
from this script, and I think it really takes away
a lot of character, and it's more about like situations,
(38:39):
if you know what I mean. So let's and I
think with documentaries especially, you have to have those characters.
And I just wanted to touch on that topic because
it's so important anymore, you know, just finding films that
have characters in them that you know, people can relate to.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
Yeah, I think that's that's important. You know, you can
have somebody telling you all day long that about this
person's plight, or you can interview them about their their
own plight and they can tell you certain things. But
if you're with them and you experience it with them,
I think that's a whole other level of understanding. And that,
(39:15):
to me was was what was important about making The
Guestworker film was that, you know, I did not understand it.
You know, I drive by a field and I see
people picking my produce. But I go to the grocery
store and I buy it, you know, and I'm not
really thinking about them when I'm I'm going to Whole
Foods and buying my five dollars piece of lettuce, you know.
(39:36):
So It's was important for me to give them not
just the face, but to also tell part of their
story and let them tell their own story, not you know,
through interview, but to witness it with them, to be
a true witness of that that experience.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
And that's that's the kind of filmmaking that I like.
It's what I like to watch heavily. Interview interview driven
kinds of films don't usually do it for me. Every
now and then I'll say what I'm like, Okay, I
take it back. I'm okay with interviews, but typically that's
(40:30):
not what I want. I have this thing where I say,
show me, don't tell me. You can tell me all
day long, but if I see it and I feel
it and I'm witnessing it, it's going to have so
much more impact on me. And I feel like that's
what it is for an audience too.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, you're experiencing with it. I really like that because
you know, again, you know when when people try to
sort of force the sort of force the issue or
even make you know, you know, these these sit down
interview you know, TV shows or movies, they're taking away
the character. They're sort of just trying to sort of
make everything happen, you know, along these sort of beats.
(41:09):
And again, you know that that's why, yeah, you know,
that's what's.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
Felling it down to, you know, just the that topic
or that issue and trying to hit that home. And
and I spend a lot more time kind of beating
around the bush hoping that people see my subtle hints
at what the issue is.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
You know.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
So I think that there's room for both kinds of storytelling.
It just as I prefer the kind that doesn't beat
you over tohead, you know, I prefer the kind that
takes me on a journey and lets me decide for myself.
And that's that's the kind of filmmaking I want to do,
is I want to take the viewer on a journey
and let them decide for themselves. Obviously, I have a
(41:49):
point of view, and so as I am laying out
the scenes and showing the audience that the moments that
I choose, I am, you know, obviously have a certain
point of view that's that they're watching. But I do
try to be very subtle in it, you know, even
if it's issue oriented and let the viewer decide for
(42:10):
themselves because I don't know what the hell I'm talking
about half the time.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Uh, it's the you know, I noticed on the clock
where we're we're starting to get a little pressed for time.
So I wanted to make sure I asked you what
about one project, which is actually how we started talking,
which is your your actual your eight part series on
on NASCAR Motorsports. So I wanted to ask you how
how did you get involved, you know, with the with
the with the project.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
Well, I have this short list of Southern things that
I would love to one day be able to film.
You know, it's I try to to stay in my region,
even if it's not necessarily Southern. Like my filmmaking, I
feel like my backyard is just as interesting as getting
on a plane and going somewhere else. So also I
(43:00):
I feel like I have permission to film once here too.
You know, I don't feel like I'm an Enarloper and
going in and trying to tell somebody else's story. So
you know, I try to stay based here in the South,
and so NASCAR has been on that list of things
that I would love to do, and for no other
reason that it's something that I grew up with. It
(43:21):
was very much a part of my family. My granddad
was a huge Richard Petti fan, and so every Sunday
we're watching a race, whether we wanted to or not.
And so I, you know, I wasn't a NASCAR fan
growing when I got when I became an adult, but
it still fascinated me. And also how people from outside
(43:43):
of the South perceived it and perceived the fan base
and the sport itself, like it's not really a sport,
and there's lots of things people say about stock car racing,
and so if you're gonna you know, I like to
admire myself in stuff that has a bit controversy, I
feel like sometimes and this was kind of one of
(44:03):
those things. But I wasn't in it for the controversy.
I just was wanting just to see that world from
the inside. And we just had the opportunity to approach
Hendrick Motorsports with the idea of coming in and doing,
you know, an inside look at it. And they are
really the giants in the sport. You know, they have
(44:26):
driving for them, Delenhart Junior, Jimmy Johnson who just won
the championship last year, Casey Kine and also Chase Elliott,
who's Bill Elliott's son, and he was getting into Jeff
Gordon's car because Jeff Jordon had just retired, and so
we wanted to enter the world with Chase because he
(44:48):
was he was new to the team and he just
turned twenty, and we thought it would be a really
interesting perspective starting the series with a newbie, and especially
one with that kind of pedigree. And surprisingly, Hendrick agreed.
And after the fact, I found out that they get
(45:09):
pitched a lot and never say yes. So I feel
really honored that they said yes. But I think it
was because I'm from the South. My ideas of what
I wanted to do and what I wanted to tell were,
you know, not any kind of again gotcha thing. I
just wanted to just go in. I wanted to embed
my team into their team and really see what it
(45:30):
was like to be, you know, in NASCAR and you know,
race every weekend. So I mean that's what we did.
We we filmed with them for six months, and we
filmed with all the drivers, not just Chase. They opened
the doors and said, hey, you want to film these
other drivers too, and We're like, oh yeah, so it was.
It was an amazing experience. You know. The unfortunate thing
(45:55):
is my ears are still ringing because it's so loud,
and but it's it was I hate this word and
I hate to even say it, but it was truly
unprecedented the access that they gave us. You know, they
they allowed us inside their facilities. NASCAR allowed us the
(46:15):
film at the race tracks with basically what we not
really telling us. You know, don't go there, don't go there,
and there are a few places we couldn't go. But
really we had the access that I didn't know that
we could have, and we had an amazing working relationship
with NASCAR and NASCAR Productions where we knew that we
(46:37):
would be able to get access to the race footage.
So we weren't always focused on trying to film the race,
but were you know, we were turning. We would focus
on the teams so that we could really see what
the inner workings are like and when something happens on
the track, what's the reaction of the team, and what's
the build up to the race and so, you know,
(47:00):
the races were important, but they just became just more
of a dramatic narrative tool for me to be able
to understand the pressure. So the outcome of the race
was less important because you know, we're not doing race coverage,
not sports coverage TV. We're really telling stories about people,
and you know, that's what we do. And so you know,
(47:23):
we focused on again on the characters and those small moments,
and I think what we were able to accomplish is
pretty unique, especially for that sport. I don't think you
ever see it really presented that way.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Yeah. I was going to ask too if they actually
got pitched a lot, because I can I can imagine
the answer would have been yes, you know, just because
you know, whenever you're in that position, whenever you're like
the leader or you know, you're involved in the A
level h you know, kind of like you know how
in the NFL, every team just gets pitched unbelievably amount.
(47:55):
You know, Hey do the you know, could we do
a documentary? Hey could we do this?
Speaker 5 (47:59):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (47:59):
You know, hey who you help out this charity? So
that's why, you know, I think you did have that
unique sort of way to sort of get your foot
in the door by saying I'm from the South and
you know, and I'm sure they wanted to see your
other to your other documentaries before they said yes, you know, yeah, and.
Speaker 5 (48:16):
It was really nice. We got to the meeting and
the head of the marketing team, Uh, he had already
seen my last film that was on HBO and was
a huge fan of the television series that I direct,
colle A Chef's Life, and so he already knew my
style and he saw how our team operated and felt
(48:39):
really comfortable with what we were presenting and the ideas
that we came to the table, and he knew that
what I said when I was in that meeting was true.
You know that I was not you know, I wasn't
trying to get in to do another kind of story
because the body of work that we came in with
showed what we were trying to do, and you know,
(49:02):
it did open those doors. And so it does prove
that eventually things do get a little easier. Other things don't.
But that door opening definitely was much easier than I
had anticipated, and that was nice. You know that that
came at a time in my career where, you know,
I've been making films for twenty years now, and so
(49:25):
it's nice to finally say hey, you know it does
work out sometimes, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
And I think you know, you're it did get easier
because you know, people can you start to build a
portfolio and you start to build a reputation, and I
think and that is key. You know something I always
say here on the podcast is your net worth is
your network or your network is your net worth? And basically,
you know, you were able to open those doors because
of your network. And it's it's all about you know,
being professional, you know, doing good work, you know, not
(49:55):
being crazy, you know, not being you know, because sometimes
you know, people get their foot in the door.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show, and.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
They shoot themselves in the foot. You know. It's it's
it's almost comical because a lot of filmmakers, you know,
they get themselves in the door and then they just start,
you know, immediately start making all these mistakes, and you know,
it just it really compounds, you know, and that's why
you really want to make sure because I mean, now
after you've done this, I mean it's like, you know, hey, hey, Cynthia,
what was your last project?
Speaker 5 (50:29):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (50:29):
Hey, I worked with Hendrick Commotorsports, and you know, we
did this and this and this, and you know, I
mean that that's just that's huge, you know, that's absolutely huge.
Speaker 5 (50:38):
We filmed with with Dale Junior, who everybody told me
that he would never wear a wireless mic, and we
you know, sometimes you would agree, you know. So we
spent really nice time with him, and that to me
is meaningful to be able to develop those kinds of
relationships and it is important. You know, the downside to
(50:58):
being in North Carolina it is that my network is
not extensive. I joke that I have a lot of
pig farmers in my network, which they're really important and
I appreciate them. But it's you know, it's it's difficult
because we are here. But you know, the benefits are
that I do have an extensive network here and the
(51:22):
folks here do trust do trust me, and and trust
the team that we have in place, and so when
we show up that does mean a lot.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah, and you know, again you never know what door
is going to open, you know. And again I like
how you know you mentioned again where you were, because
you know, every everything's different again, everything has changed, which
sort of you know, brings us back to full circle,
which I was, which was what you know, we open
up the podcast with you could be a filmmaker now, Uh,
you know across the America and it's it's opened a
(51:53):
lot of doors, Cynthia. I know, we've actually just run
out of time. So where can people find you out onlinethea.
Speaker 5 (52:01):
You made me or just my company name is Mark
Media m A r kay Media dot com. And The
Road to Ray Day, which is the NASCAR series, was
just released on the Complex Next Complex Network's platform Go
ninety and so it's currently streaming the next The last
(52:25):
episode is premiering tomorrow, so all the episodes will be
up after tomorrow. And my other films are somewhat harder
to fine. Private Violence, which was the last film with HBO.
That one I think you can find on Amazon and Hulu,
(52:48):
and A Chef's Life is on PBS. Season five is
premiering in October, so that one's still going strong.
Speaker 3 (52:57):
Yeah. So we got to talking, Cynthia, and we ran
out of time with because I was going to talk.
I had notes to talk about, uh, you know, all
of your all of your work, and you know, we
just you know, one of those things right out of time.
But but I'm going to link to everything in the
show notes everyone at Dave Bulls dot com. Twitter, it's
at dave Underscore Bullets, and I'm going to link to
all of Cynthia's social media as well, so you could
(53:19):
follow her and see all the really cool stuff that
she's up to.
Speaker 5 (53:24):
Thanks Dave, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
Oh my pleasure, Cynthia. And if you ever want to
come back sometime we talk, you know, more about your
next projects and you know, and then the other projects
we didn't get a chance to talk about, let me know,
you know, and you know, I love to have you
back on Happy too.
Speaker 5 (53:38):
It's fun. It is kind of like therapy. And maybe
just listen to that because I have a tendency not
to be PC, so maybe listen to the guest worker
stuff just to make sure I didn't say something too offensive,
because sometimes I say things that I don't know offensive
and they become offensive without me knowing it.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
So now it's all good. So everything's offensive nowadays.
Speaker 5 (54:04):
That's true. It is true. It can be, but you know,
I think it's like for me, it's it's you know,
I we work really hard to be inclusive and the
team I have in place, you know, we've we've built
a diverse team, and we work with a lot of
women too, and so we we spend a lot of
(54:26):
time trying to tell stories that have meaning and beyond
just you know the meaning of my demographic.
Speaker 3 (54:34):
So we try no and I and I I think
you do very well. And I honestly and uh, that's
why I wanted to have you on this podcast. And
again I want to link to everything of yours in
the show notes, and you know, people can check out
your work and uh, you know, I want to see
and obviously I hope you continue to move forward with
(54:56):
this and and you continue to uh to build that pilmography.
Speaker 5 (55:00):
Thank you. I appreciate it. I hope so hopefully I
won't burn out.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
Don't go back to pharmacy. That's what I'm that's the
message of this whole podcast is, don't go back to pharmacy.
Speaker 5 (55:09):
I don't know if I can anymore. I lost my job.
That's all right. I needed it. I needed that kicking
the butt.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Yeah, exactly right. It's like the old Roman army when
they got to a new country, they'd burn their boats.
Speaker 5 (55:25):
Yeah, this is it, you gotta yeah, there's no Yeah, Yeah, we're.
Speaker 3 (55:30):
Swimming Cynthia, Cynthia Hill, I want to say thank you
so much for coming on and I do wish you
the best of luck.
Speaker 5 (55:38):
Thank you, thanks so much, Dave.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
For it slash for twenty seven. Thank you so much
for listening. Guys, As always, keep on writing no matter what.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at bullet
Group Screenwriting dot tv.
Speaker 6 (56:08):
Mm hmm
You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, episode number four twenty seven.
Start writing no matter what. The water does not flow
until the faucet is turned on.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Louis Lemore broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood
when we really should be working on that next draft.
It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
screenplay bulletproof.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Now.
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Today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now. Unlike
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There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's
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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullets.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
My next guest is a filmmaker from North Carolina. Her
TV series As Chef's Life is now in its fifth season.
The HBO documentary Private Violence and PBS documentary Tobacco Money
Feeds My Family are just two of the credits to
under her belt. Her current project is at eight part
docuseriies Road to Race Day, which follows Hendricks Motorsports, the
(02:04):
most winning team in professional stock car history, and it's
all going to be about this twenty seventeen NASCAR season.
And she also teamed up with Peter Berg's film forty
five to sell this thing to Complex Networks, which is unbelievable.
We're going to talk all about how she did all
that good stuff with guests Cynthia Hill.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
It's easy to access the equipment. There's not that hurdle
of it just being too expensive for people to access.
I mean, you can shoot a film on your iPhone now,
so if you really have a story to tell, you
can pretty much tell it no matter what your socioeconomic
(02:43):
situation is, which means that there are a lot more
people out there telling stories. And again, it's still trying
to get the stories out there that I think probably
is the biggest hurdle. Not necessarily making it, but getting
in out there to the masses still becomes a bit
of a hurdle.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, yeah, very very true. And that's something also we
touch upon the podcast. But you know, before you and
I talked about you know, distribution stuff like that, which
I'm actually very interested in hearing your point of view with.
I wanted to ask, you know, Cynthia, how you got
involved in the film industry. You know, so the question
I have to start with is did you go to
film school? Cynthia.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
I did not go to the film school. I went
to pharmacy school. So the natural logical transition or the
next path from pharmacy school is filmmaking, right, It's you know,
I grew up in a really remote area of eastern
North Carolina, you know, agricultural based economy. And the thing
(03:45):
that you would do if you went to college is
you would for a woman in particular, as you would
do nursing or teaching. So me, even going into pharmacy
school was kind of risky and and I really didn't
know what I wanted to do, to be honest with you,
I didn't have a particular calling. But I knew that
(04:07):
the pharmacist in town made the most money, or seemed
to make the most money, and so I thought that
at least he had one of the biggest houses. So
I thought, you know, if that's that was going to
be my profession. And then when you look at the
starting salaries of undergraduate degrees, especially when I was going
in the late eighties, the pharmacist was number one. And
(04:27):
so I just was ready to get out of a
poor town and make some money. And so I was
going to be a pharmacist. But that was not what
was in store for me.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
You know, you mentioned about the link between pharmacists and filmmaker,
and I was and you know what, I can actually
see it, you know, because you know, I've known some
people who've gone in the in the midfield, and they've
gone right into filmmaking. I actually had a friend of
mine who was a spinal surgeon, and he was in
the morning before surgery. He sat at his kitchen table
(05:01):
and he was writing a TV pilot and.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
Basically, yeah, it's surprising that right brain, left brain kind
of thing, and the healthcare profession I think is more
maybe artistic then we know, or at least maybe some
of the folks that are in it maybe so, I
don't know, but for me, it was definitely a strange
kind of diversion when it happened.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
But I wasn't necessarily the best pharmacy student. I wasn't
necessarily engaged, but you know, I was out there. I
was looking for something, and I met these folks working
on this TV show. They were traveling to Chapel Hill.
I went to UNC Chapel Hill and they were doing
(05:48):
this accident reconstruction show that was that type of show
that was really popular in the early nineties. And it
just seems so fascinating and way more fascinating than being
in a pharmacy accounting pills all day long. So I thought,
you know, I'm gonna hang out with these people, and
I ended up going out to LA because I made
some good friends and spending some time in LA and
(06:10):
I would just hang out with these people. And storytelling
was not necessarily something that I thought that I was
good at, because I was not a good writer. But
if you're in the South, storytelling is just ingrained in
you because you hear your grandmama, your granddaddy, everybody tells stories,
and so you're just it's just a part of who
(06:32):
you are. And so I had this knack for telling
stories that I did not know was there because I
was just driven into math and science because I was
obviously good at those things. And I found this whole
world that really was intriguing. And I came back to
(06:52):
pharmacy school the next year and for every project I
could possibly do papers, presentations, I would make videos for
it instead of actually doing the thing I was supposed
to do. And for my rotation when I was working
in different locations, like I had a retail rotation, and
instead of doing a paper which you were supposed to do,
(07:12):
I made two commercials for the pharmacy for a local cable.
So I found my niche in pharmacy school in this
really strange sort of way, and the dean of the
pharmacy school pulled me aside and was like, Cynthia, you're
not exactly the best pharmacy student, but you got something,
(07:34):
you got some talent here, and I want to try
to help you. And so he encouraged me to go
to graduate school at Auburn University in the pharmacy administration department,
which sounds like another kind of strange thing, but they
had a production studio in the graduate school there, and
any communications department would have salivated at the equipment that
(07:56):
we had access to, but because we had access to
pharmaceutical money, we had all this equipment, and they were
doing this health education media and they were one of
the first schools, especially pharmacy school, that was getting into
interactive healthcare. And so I found a surprising home there
(08:20):
and another sort of entree into deeper into the television world.
And I did this study with Primetime Live in New
York City, where we, as the pharmacy school, took the
study component of medication dispensing errors and we helped Primetime
Live do an undercover report on pharmacists making dispensing mistakes.
(08:44):
And so I flew up to New York and spent
a lot of time up there, and I became the
undercover shopper because I could control the medication, and I
became a part of that study. And then after that
I was just really completely just spoiled. I was not
going to end up in a pharmacy accounting pills after that.
So then I had to figure out how to become
(09:04):
a filmmaker.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I was going to ask you when you were in
the mystery shop, or if you had like a hidden
camera somewhere or something.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
I had somebody that was behind me with a camera.
I was mined. And then I had my companion had
a camera in his wig or in his hat, depending
on what set up we were using that day. So
it was this little girl from this rural town in
eastern North Carolina was not in eastern North Carolina anymore.
(09:34):
It was rather funny.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I imagine those there's hard copy or thre's twenty twenty
things where they would have those hidden cameras, and you know,
and again that's sort of like now, how everything's changed.
You know, cameras have become so miniaturized.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
You know, you can have your phone out and that's
a camera. You have these little spy cameras that I
see sometimes online. Uh you know, cause imagine when you
when you shot that was it? When was it one
of those big sort of like mini DV cameras or
or something or something different. Well, it had a.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
Big pack, so you had a backpack, but the lens
like he was able to bring it up into his
wig or his hat, so it was easier to hide.
But it was definitely a much larger rig than what
you would find today.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So and you know that that's where I imagine there
had to be a lot of like creativity, a lot
of ingenuity to hide that, you know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (10:39):
So, uh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
So when you were talking about storytelling, I mean just
to sort of take a step back, I mean you
were talking about growing up and in the South and
and you uh and you were you heard stories from
you know, your your grandmother. What were some of the
things that you like really stuck out with you, like
in terms of story I mean, was it was it
maybe how a person was telling it, or maybe what
was it some of the characters involved? I mean, because
(11:03):
I imagine a lot of that is what really sort
of molded your, uh, your way of storytelling, that that
you for when you make your own projects.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
Yeah, it's definitely. There are a lot of characters in
the South, so I gravitate to eccentric personalities. I think too,
It's that's one thing that you know, being in the South,
you're never short of somebody who's really interesting. You know,
they're all around you. And I think too, like my
(11:35):
my grandma's brother, uncle James, he was always good for
stories and they're always long and elaborate, and I think
I maybe inherited a bit of that and it takes
you a while to get to the point, but they're
always really good stories. And I have sort of this
this problem of ending stories. My first film that I made, Uh,
(12:00):
one of the my favorite compliments, I guess you could say,
is from Da Penny Baker. He said he was using
it in his classroom, but he's like, it's a really
good film with all of its three endings. So it's like, yeah,
I know what you're saying. So actually ending something is
(12:23):
difficult for me, you know, wrapping it up and coming
to a close, you know, because there's always something else
you can say that, you know, you helps make your point.
So trying to get it all in there has been
a challenge for me and something that has taken me
a while to to perfect, which I still haven't. But
(12:44):
you know, being able to concisely tell a story without
rambling on is a bit difficult for Southerners.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I think that's fine, Cynthia. I mean, did you see
Lord of the Rings, Return of the King. I mean
that had a lot of that had like seven different endings,
you know that just.
Speaker 5 (13:03):
No, I remember being to the best of them with
my endings, my multiple endings.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
I remember being in the theater with that movie and
people were like, oh is that it? Oh no, there's more,
and then they kept getting up and down. I was
it was like either this either either there was something,
this was a unique way of storytelling, or Peter Jackson
was just trolling everybody. Uh you know, but uh, but
you know where he.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Is in his career. I mean, he can keep going
if he's got something else to say, So I think
that that's kind of it too. You know, you have
the luxury at certain at a certain point where you
know you can keep telling the story you want to tell.
But I didn't that with my first film, even though
I thought I did. So yeah, and I.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Want to, you know, get into into talking about all
your films too, And I just want to touch one
more thing about storytelling, you know, because I love hearing
like all the different unique point of views and everything
about storytelling. And you know, there was a movie that
was out recently I didn't see. I think it was
maybe out a year or two ago, called Blue Ruin,
and the tagline really stuck out to me because I
think it was it was something along the lines of
(14:11):
a Southern revenge tale or the Southern Gothic revenge tale.
And I sort of kind of, you know, stuck with
me because I started to see a couple other articles,
you know about the the how the the Southern revenge
tale is kind of different. And and basically, you know,
as we tell stories, you know, you know, you tell
me it's a story, I tell you a story. There
there's all different components to them, and usually a story
(14:34):
is to reveal a transformation. You know, Usually there's you know,
something inside you know, of the of the society, of
the culture, that the of ideals that they hold true
or ideals that they really value. So you know, and
it's different too because you know, for people, you know,
I have a lot of listeners who aren't from America
and they still don't understand. You know, America is huge.
(14:56):
I mean, this country is absolutely huge, and we have
so many different, you know, different regions. You have the
East Coast, you have the West Coast, you have the Midwest,
you have you know, the Northeast, you have this, you
have the South. I mean, all of these different ways
of telling stories, and you know, all these unique points
of view. So, you know, Cynthia, when when you take
your movies out, do you notice that, you know, you
(15:18):
tell the you know different, do you notice that maybe
your stories have that that sort of like unique vantage
point but it's something that's sort of there's like a
parallel that can be drawn through all all through all
different types of regions and stuff like that.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean I've never really looked
at it that way. I do feel very much like
it is southern. But what does southern mean? You know?
I think for me and when it comes to storytelling,
it's about character. It's about character, and it's also about
the small moments. And you know, I when I am
in the field now in working in the documentary medium,
(15:56):
it's you know, I don't necessarily have have a set agenda.
You know, you go out to if you've got something
that you know, you're making a film about a certain
topic or whatever, you've got some agenda. You kind of
know what world you're entering. But I like to be
(16:17):
fluid in wait for things to happen and for characters
to reveal themselves, and moments that let the characters become
human just happen and unfold. And so I spend a
lot of time with nothing happening, waiting for those moments
to happen. And a lot of what I say, especially
when I work with new editors, is that what ends
(16:39):
up on the screen with me a lot of the
times are things that other I feel like other filmmakers
or maybe other editors, especially like in older kinds of
TV dot formats, where that stuff would end up on
the editing room floor typically. But I like those moments
that are subtle, that take the audience. It's a little
(17:01):
bit more time. Hey, you know, you've got to pay
closer attention to them and those things that are going
to build so that by the time I make my
point I have teased it out a long time and
so that it becomes even more meaningful to the audience
by the time you see that revealed. And so that's
what I'm doing when I'm in the field a lot
(17:22):
is just waiting for those moments. And when you're with
me and I work with new folks in the field,
they think I'm not doing anything because I look like
I'm not doing anything, but I'm listening and I'm playing,
paying close attention and waiting for that moment. And usually
that moment happens when everybody kind of lets their guard down,
(17:44):
or maybe you know, the moment after another moment is
usually the moment that I'm after. So it's kind of
it's hard to explain, but when you add all those
things together, it just really helps with it, you know,
it helps with the really building who those characters are
(18:07):
that you're with and those narratives because those small moments,
I feel like are they're really the important things that
are happening.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Oh and I see exactly what you mean too. It's
like a slow burn, you know, and rather than sort
of like the fast paced sort of MTV style of
sort of editing or you know, and honestly, I've seen
you know, that's good to have because I don't ever
want to see where filmmaking or anything becomes homogenized where
everybody shoots and edits and et cetera the same way.
(18:35):
And you know, just just as we get started talking
about your career, Cynthia, you know, you mentioned how do
you go from pharmacist to filmmaker? So you know what
was what was this step that you took so that
way you said, Look, I'm not going to do pharmacy
tech work anymore. I'm going to do filmmaking full time.
So you know what was that step that you took?
Speaker 5 (18:54):
Well, until this year, I still was employed by Walmart
as a pharmacist, so I was canned unceremoniously as of late.
I'd only worked two days, so it was, uh, it
was coming. But it's I and just not that I
(19:14):
have I apologize up front. I have a tendency to
answer the question that I want to answer. So I'm
going going to backstep just a little bit. Pharmacy to
me gave me permission to experiment. It gave me that
solid foundation and that financial security that I needed to
(19:36):
take risks. And so I knew I could always go
and work as a pharmacist, So it allowed me to
not go and have to work on other people's projects
if I didn't want to. You know, I wasn't out
there using that creative side of my brain to you know,
do ad work or.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
You know, we'll be right back after a word from
our sponsor and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Do something that wasn't coming from inside of me in
that medium, So I could devote all of that energy
to working on what I wanted to work on. So
that's what I've always done, and it's also I mean,
it's been really great for me because I have a
very distinctive style and you know when you see something
(20:26):
that I work on. But the downfall is that I
do create my stuff kind of in a vacuum, and
I don't have a lot of mentors and stuff like
that because I've never worked for anybody else. I've always
just done what I wanted to do. But when I
first started out, you know, I had this one story
(20:46):
that was burning inside of me that I knew I
had to tell, and that was the story of tobacco
farming and growing up in the South and in this
region of the country. Tobacco was the one crop that
all farmers and families could rely on. And yes, it
kills people, but it also put sent a lot of
(21:06):
us to college and created opportunities that would not have
otherwise existed, and also kept small farms intact in the
South when when it was no longer possible or viable
with other commodities.
Speaker 7 (21:22):
So I had this this this strange relationship with this
crop that kills people, but it also is something that
I had a lot of uh fondness for.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
You know. It was a lot of memories with the
family working and it was very much a family kind
of business and operation where we would we would help
each other, you know, harvest the crop every summer. And
that's what I did up until I went to college.
And so I knew that that was a story I
wanted to tell because I could see the demise of
(22:00):
that small family farm happening in front of my eyes,
and I had to tell that story. And so when
I first started out, it was like, I'm just going
to tell this story. I didn't consider myself an artist
or a filmmaker. I just knew I was going to
do that. So I was going to raise ten thousand
dollars and film for one season, and that was going
(22:22):
to be my film. But instead I filmed for over
three years and raised over one hundred thousand dollars, and
it took me another two years to edit the film,
to make my first film, and I still couldn't call
myself a filmmaker after that. I didn't have enough confidence
in myself. But that began my path, and each time
(22:45):
I start a film, I swear I'm going to make
it in less than five years. But I still have
a hard time making a film in less than five years.
Speaker 6 (22:52):
So maybe one day.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
So let me ask you said that when you decided
to raise that much money, you know that that's sort
of like the million dollar question. No plan intended for
a lot of filmmakers is they always say, you know,
what steps do you go to raise funds? Some people
say it's crowdfunding, some people will say it's private equity.
So you know, what what methods did you use to
to to sort of, you know, raise these funds to
(23:18):
help make your documentary.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
Yeah, for this one, it was all foundation money and
the first two grant proposals I sent out were funded,
which is completely one unheard of. I had already shot
some so I had something to show, you know, So
I was I was able to show proof of concept
(23:41):
and what I was trying to do. But if I
had not had that kind of success out of the gate,
I probably wouldn't have continued because it would have been
just too depressing. But then after those first two I
probably probably the next twenty five were not funded. So,
you know it, this is really one of those things
(24:01):
where it's it's so difficult and there's no magic answer
to it. You know, there's one of those. If it's
a social issue film, you know, you can try the
foundation route. If it's you know, you can try the
crowdfunding route. And I've done that twice now and I
never want to do that again. It says it's a
(24:24):
special kind of torture crowdfunding, or at least you know,
the process of actually, you know, during the campaign is torture.
And then it's even more torture when you have to
fulfill all this bullshit that you've promised people during your
crowdfunding campaign. You actually have to make good on all
these promises. So it's really, you know, there's no magic answer.
(24:48):
The equity thing. I still have a hard time with that,
I've had this one really amazing woman who's been trying
to give me money for this project that I'm currently
working on, and I I don't I don't know how
I feel about that, because you know, once you have
somebody that's invested in you, then it's like you feel
like you got to make money and too you feel
(25:09):
like you got somebody looking over your shoulder. And so
I'm contemplating that now. You know, I'm to a point
in my career that I need to be able to
do that. You know, this last project that we're the
I have a development deal with HBO and some development
money from Sundance for it, but I need to be
(25:30):
able to have some additional funds in place before I
can go back to try to show what the project
really is. And so what do I do in the meantime,
Because it's not really a social issue film that I
can go out and do the foundation route again. So
I'm sitting here thinking I really need to call that
lady back and take her money. It's hard, h this
(25:54):
whole legal thing with you know, sale securities, bloody blah
blah blah. But yeah, it's you know, I feel like
I've got to grow up and and you know, this
is this is my business now, this is this is
how I make a living. I am to that point
where I actually can say that, and I have a
(26:14):
lot of folks that now work with me or for me,
and you know, I've got to also be mindful of
their their well being too, not just my own.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yeah. Yeah, it is tricky. I mean, you know, that's
something we really talk a lot about on this podcast,
is you know, the whole legal aspect of taking people's money. Uh,
you know, private equity, crowdfunding, all those different routes and uh,
you know, and I've heard everything from hey we did
it for free, by uh. I mean that's what I
did too. You know, I didn't go to film school.
My first student film was me making a feature film
(26:47):
and we borrowed every set, everything, everything was all borrowed.
Uh you know, don't you know a friend of mine
had a house we could shoot in, and we've had
that all the way to you know, very expensive movies
on here. So you know, it's just always interesting to
hear you know everything, uh, you know, all those two
extremes and everything between, and you know, as we talk
more about you know, making documentaries and everything else. You know,
(27:08):
making it into a living is something special, Cynthia, because
you know that that takes a lot of hard work,
It takes a lot of talent, it takes a lot
of patience, uh, you know, and and a lot of times,
you know, you know, filmmakers maybe make one film or
two and they get kind of burned out from the
whole process.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Well that's it's true, you know, And I think I'm
struggling with that right now. You know, is it a
business or is it still a passion? You know, so
trying to straddle still wanting to do this work because
it's something that you know, burns inside of me versus
like just making content because I've got a lot of
mouths to feed and I don't want to be in
(27:48):
that place, you know. And it's new for me to
manage people, you know, because I I have finally accepted
that I'm an artist that comes with artist tendencies, which
means that I'm not great at necessarily manage people. And
so but you know, when you have this kind of
operation where we have right now, where this past year
(28:11):
we produced an eight part series that were hour long.
Each was an hour long, so eight hours of that
and then another ten part half hour series. We're producing
a lot of content and it takes a lot of
people to pull that off. And you know, we're doing
this in a part of the country that doesn't have
(28:32):
the infrastructure and you know, the the depth of talent
and stuff. So you know, we're training our own where
we're making it work even when the odds are completely
against us. And that in and of itself, to me
is something that I'm really proud of and proud of
the team that we have in place for that. But
(28:54):
then how do you keep that going? You know, how
much of inside of me has to come out to
keep that that those creative juices going, because so far
that those stories are all coming from me, you know,
like just the creative part of it, you know, putting
it together, and that is really that's hard to keep
(29:17):
that going and to fill that burden of that, And
then like, is that really what I want to do
moving forward? Or do I want to like quit all
that and go back and you know, make a narrative film,
which I've been contemplating for a long time. So you know,
it's I'm struggling a bit. I don't know if it's
midlife bullshit mess. But yeah, you know, you the success
(29:41):
is great, but it's also like, is this really what
I want? And you know, are we are we happy?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (29:58):
Lord, I'm in therapy.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Yeah, this podcast is like therapy for a lot of people,
myself included. But uh no, I'm just joking, cynthy, but no,
it's this is what it is. It's a discussion, you know,
uh and that's you know, some of the things that
we discussed on this podcast is stuff you don't hear
other you know, any other place. And what I mean
by that is, you know, the things that affect filmmakers,
things that they go through, stuff like that. You know,
(30:21):
too many podcasts, too many articles. They they paint either
a rosy picture or they paint this very bleak picture,
and and it's really, you know, it's not really one
of the other. It's usually in between, you know, the
ones that paint the rosy picture like oh, yeah, I
submitted to Sundance and we wanted ten billion dollars and
then we're all rich now, and the and the and
the the bleak pictures like oh, I try to submit
(30:43):
the Sun Dance, that's all bullshit. I couldn't get any
other film festival. There was all bullshit. And I thought
up on YouTube and nobody watched it. And now I'm,
you know, one hundred grand in the hole and I
hate my life and you know, so it's kind of like,
you know, trying to find this happy medium because I
believe me. I you know, when I started doing this,
even before I started doing this podcast, I I met
(31:05):
so many different people doing so many different things, on
so many different film sets, and I heard so many
different stories about successes and failures, successes and failures. And
that's why I wanted to do this podcast, you know,
because it's it's I've noticed a common thread among a
lot of filmmakers. That's why I started this podcast. So,
you know, when you made your tobacco documentary about you know,
(31:26):
obviously it's focused on the South, you know, but you
you kept going and you turned it into other projects.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So after after your your the documentary aired, you know
and was completed, you know what, you know, what what
was your next step in continuing your filmography?
Speaker 5 (31:43):
Well, I was helping work on another film at the
same time. Some other film makers here in Durham, and
so it's I was. That was February one, which was
about the Greensboro lunch counter sit in. So I was
able to see a little bit about, you know what
else could be opportunities. And then this story came along
(32:06):
as I was finishing up the tobacco film that was
about the farm workers that were coming from Mexico. And
can we start that over again because I feel like
the February one thing is kind of like left field.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Sure, absolutely, we were talking.
Speaker 5 (32:24):
Yeah, I'll just tell about the tobacco. I mean, I'll
ask me the question again.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Sure, sure, no problem. So so you know, you kept
on going. So you know, after you made your tobacco documentary,
you know what was the next step, do you you
you made to continue your filmography?
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Well, when I was finishing up tobacco money fees my family,
one of the farmers that I had been profiling was
getting farm workers from Mexico in this guest worker program.
And he got farm workers that We're being bussed directly
from Mexico straight to his farm. They would open the
(33:08):
door from the bus and they would get out on
his farm in North Carolina. And I was like, WHOA,
what the hell is that? You know, when I was
growing up, I remember when we had the first Mexicans
that showed up in our community to harvest cucumbers, and
that was the first time we locked our doors because
(33:34):
the Mexicans were in town. And so there's this thing
with we don't want foreigners in our communities doing our work,
is taking our work, But then we are actively busting
folks in to do the work that we don't want
to do. And I thought, oh my goodness, this is
(33:55):
so fascinating. And so then I spent the next two
years filming a story of these farm workers that were
coming from Mexico in this guestworker program. I was able
to find a farm in North Carolina that would let
me film, and that in and of itself was a
huge hurdle because there was so much suspicion about this
(34:21):
program and folks trying to do this gotcha kind of
filmmaking at the time and still to this day. And
so getting a farmer comfortable with us being there to
do a story about farm workers was really was not
an easy feed. But when we finally latched onto this
one guy who was willing to do willing to let
(34:43):
us stay on his farm.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
It was.
Speaker 5 (34:48):
So eye opening to spend a whole season with this
one farm worker. Several but we ended up going back
home with two of them, and we took that bus
ride back home to Mexico on bus after bus to
the back of a pickup truck to get to his
home back in his village in Durango, Mexico. And you know,
(35:13):
it's not that they know, especially for this guest worker program,
they're not trying to move to to the US. You know,
they were here to make money to bring back home.
And you know, I'd always hear these things about the
excuses for the horrible living conditions that the farm workers
(35:34):
had to live in, about how so much better than
what they got back in Mexico, and that how we're
you know, we're doing them so to favor. But then
when we got back to his home in Mexico, he
lived in this beautiful villa that it was very modest
but had a lot of outdoor space, and it was
on the side you could see his cows often the horizon,
(35:57):
and and it's just like these are people who want
to support their family, just like these farmers want to
support their families, and it was important for me to
after telling the farmers story, to also tell that farm
worker story. And I couldn't not do that, you know.
I felt like it was a disservice just to tell
(36:18):
the farmer's story without completing that that story. So that
was my second film.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
So when when you released that, that film you sort
of back to back with you tell the farmers, you know,
the farmer's story, you tell the workers story. You know.
How was that Did that change any perceptions?
Speaker 5 (36:39):
You hope that it does. I mean, I think that
the folks that that saw it, you know, that's really
the key is like getting folks to watch stuff. And
I think the one of the main accomplishments for me
and that with that film was that we had this
one screening where we had farm workers and farmers in
the room at the same time, watching the film at
(37:00):
the same time, and it was it was kind of funny,
like there would be moments where they would laugh at
the same things and they could see the humanity in
each other. And to me, that's what it was about,
you know, trying to bridge that gap. And I feel
like I do that quite a bit as trying to
(37:20):
bridge that gap. Of understanding. And you know, I'm not
I don't consider myself an activist filmmaker per se, but
I do tend to tackle topics that are important and
or at least I like to, but I like to
do it with story and really about understanding the you know,
(37:42):
the human condition and you know, really getting into characters
and understanding the plight and trying to walk in their
shoes for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yeah, and I think that's something that you know, a
lot of filmmakers have sort of missed, not all the filmmakers,
but producers and TV show owners. And you know, you
tune in because you want to see characters. You know,
you see these characters and these sort of you know,
predicaments and in you know, a couple episodes ago, I
interviewed Rna Sheer, and Randa Shear was you know, on
you the host of Usays Up All Night. And you know,
(38:16):
something I spoke to her about was to into in
today's sort of uh, you know, entertainment environment, a lot
of the people when they start putting money into things,
whether it be a TV show, you know, everything becomes
very mechanical. Now everything has an algorithm. Oh well, hey,
you know what you say this script and don't deviate
from this script, and I think it really takes away
a lot of character, and it's more about like situations,
(38:39):
if you know what I mean. So let's and I
think with documentaries especially, you have to have those characters.
And I just wanted to touch on that topic because
it's so important anymore, you know, just finding films that
have characters in them that you know, people can relate to.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
Yeah, I think that's that's important. You know, you can
have somebody telling you all day long that about this
person's plight, or you can interview them about their their
own plight and they can tell you certain things. But
if you're with them and you experience it with them,
I think that's a whole other level of understanding. And that,
(39:15):
to me was was what was important about making The
Guestworker film was that, you know, I did not understand it.
You know, I drive by a field and I see
people picking my produce. But I go to the grocery
store and I buy it, you know, and I'm not
really thinking about them when I'm I'm going to Whole
Foods and buying my five dollars piece of lettuce, you know.
(39:36):
So It's was important for me to give them not
just the face, but to also tell part of their
story and let them tell their own story, not you know,
through interview, but to witness it with them, to be
a true witness of that that experience.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
And that's that's the kind of filmmaking that I like.
It's what I like to watch heavily. Interview interview driven
kinds of films don't usually do it for me. Every
now and then I'll say what I'm like, Okay, I
take it back. I'm okay with interviews, but typically that's
(40:30):
not what I want. I have this thing where I say,
show me, don't tell me. You can tell me all
day long, but if I see it and I feel
it and I'm witnessing it, it's going to have so
much more impact on me. And I feel like that's
what it is for an audience too.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, you're experiencing with it. I really like that because
you know, again, you know when when people try to
sort of force the sort of force the issue or
even make you know, you know, these these sit down
interview you know, TV shows or movies, they're taking away
the character. They're sort of just trying to sort of
make everything happen, you know, along these sort of beats.
(41:09):
And again, you know that that's why, yeah, you know,
that's what's.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
Felling it down to, you know, just the that topic
or that issue and trying to hit that home. And
and I spend a lot more time kind of beating
around the bush hoping that people see my subtle hints
at what the issue is.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
You know.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
So I think that there's room for both kinds of storytelling.
It just as I prefer the kind that doesn't beat
you over tohead, you know, I prefer the kind that
takes me on a journey and lets me decide for myself.
And that's that's the kind of filmmaking I want to do,
is I want to take the viewer on a journey
and let them decide for themselves. Obviously, I have a
(41:49):
point of view, and so as I am laying out
the scenes and showing the audience that the moments that
I choose, I am, you know, obviously have a certain
point of view that's that they're watching. But I do
try to be very subtle in it, you know, even
if it's issue oriented and let the viewer decide for
(42:10):
themselves because I don't know what the hell I'm talking
about half the time.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Uh, it's the you know, I noticed on the clock
where we're we're starting to get a little pressed for time.
So I wanted to make sure I asked you what
about one project, which is actually how we started talking,
which is your your actual your eight part series on
on NASCAR Motorsports. So I wanted to ask you how
how did you get involved, you know, with the with
the with the project.
Speaker 5 (42:38):
Well, I have this short list of Southern things that
I would love to one day be able to film.
You know, it's I try to to stay in my region,
even if it's not necessarily Southern. Like my filmmaking, I
feel like my backyard is just as interesting as getting
on a plane and going somewhere else. So also I
(43:00):
I feel like I have permission to film once here too.
You know, I don't feel like I'm an Enarloper and
going in and trying to tell somebody else's story. So
you know, I try to stay based here in the South,
and so NASCAR has been on that list of things
that I would love to do, and for no other
reason that it's something that I grew up with. It
(43:21):
was very much a part of my family. My granddad
was a huge Richard Petti fan, and so every Sunday
we're watching a race, whether we wanted to or not.
And so I, you know, I wasn't a NASCAR fan
growing when I got when I became an adult, but
it still fascinated me. And also how people from outside
(43:43):
of the South perceived it and perceived the fan base
and the sport itself, like it's not really a sport,
and there's lots of things people say about stock car racing,
and so if you're gonna you know, I like to
admire myself in stuff that has a bit controversy, I
feel like sometimes and this was kind of one of
(44:03):
those things. But I wasn't in it for the controversy.
I just was wanting just to see that world from
the inside. And we just had the opportunity to approach
Hendrick Motorsports with the idea of coming in and doing,
you know, an inside look at it. And they are
really the giants in the sport. You know, they have
(44:26):
driving for them, Delenhart Junior, Jimmy Johnson who just won
the championship last year, Casey Kine and also Chase Elliott,
who's Bill Elliott's son, and he was getting into Jeff
Gordon's car because Jeff Jordon had just retired, and so
we wanted to enter the world with Chase because he
(44:48):
was he was new to the team and he just
turned twenty, and we thought it would be a really
interesting perspective starting the series with a newbie, and especially
one with that kind of pedigree. And surprisingly, Hendrick agreed.
And after the fact, I found out that they get
(45:09):
pitched a lot and never say yes. So I feel
really honored that they said yes. But I think it
was because I'm from the South. My ideas of what
I wanted to do and what I wanted to tell were,
you know, not any kind of again gotcha thing. I
just wanted to just go in. I wanted to embed
my team into their team and really see what it
(45:30):
was like to be, you know, in NASCAR and you know,
race every weekend. So I mean that's what we did.
We we filmed with them for six months, and we
filmed with all the drivers, not just Chase. They opened
the doors and said, hey, you want to film these
other drivers too, and We're like, oh yeah, so it was.
It was an amazing experience. You know. The unfortunate thing
(45:55):
is my ears are still ringing because it's so loud,
and but it's it was I hate this word and
I hate to even say it, but it was truly
unprecedented the access that they gave us. You know, they
they allowed us inside their facilities. NASCAR allowed us the
(46:15):
film at the race tracks with basically what we not
really telling us. You know, don't go there, don't go there,
and there are a few places we couldn't go. But
really we had the access that I didn't know that
we could have, and we had an amazing working relationship
with NASCAR and NASCAR Productions where we knew that we
(46:37):
would be able to get access to the race footage.
So we weren't always focused on trying to film the race,
but were you know, we were turning. We would focus
on the teams so that we could really see what
the inner workings are like and when something happens on
the track, what's the reaction of the team, and what's
the build up to the race and so, you know,
(47:00):
the races were important, but they just became just more
of a dramatic narrative tool for me to be able
to understand the pressure. So the outcome of the race
was less important because you know, we're not doing race coverage,
not sports coverage TV. We're really telling stories about people,
and you know, that's what we do. And so you know,
(47:23):
we focused on again on the characters and those small moments,
and I think what we were able to accomplish is
pretty unique, especially for that sport. I don't think you
ever see it really presented that way.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Yeah. I was going to ask too if they actually
got pitched a lot, because I can I can imagine
the answer would have been yes, you know, just because
you know, whenever you're in that position, whenever you're like
the leader or you know, you're involved in the A
level h you know, kind of like you know how
in the NFL, every team just gets pitched unbelievably amount.
(47:55):
You know, Hey do the you know, could we do
a documentary? Hey could we do this?
Speaker 5 (47:59):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (47:59):
You know, hey who you help out this charity? So
that's why, you know, I think you did have that
unique sort of way to sort of get your foot
in the door by saying I'm from the South and
you know, and I'm sure they wanted to see your
other to your other documentaries before they said yes, you know, yeah, and.
Speaker 5 (48:16):
It was really nice. We got to the meeting and
the head of the marketing team, Uh, he had already
seen my last film that was on HBO and was
a huge fan of the television series that I direct,
colle A Chef's Life, and so he already knew my
style and he saw how our team operated and felt
(48:39):
really comfortable with what we were presenting and the ideas
that we came to the table, and he knew that
what I said when I was in that meeting was true.
You know that I was not you know, I wasn't
trying to get in to do another kind of story
because the body of work that we came in with
showed what we were trying to do, and you know,
(49:02):
it did open those doors. And so it does prove
that eventually things do get a little easier. Other things don't.
But that door opening definitely was much easier than I
had anticipated, and that was nice. You know that that
came at a time in my career where, you know,
I've been making films for twenty years now, and so
(49:25):
it's nice to finally say hey, you know it does
work out sometimes, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
And I think you know, you're it did get easier
because you know, people can you start to build a
portfolio and you start to build a reputation, and I
think and that is key. You know something I always
say here on the podcast is your net worth is
your network or your network is your net worth? And basically,
you know, you were able to open those doors because
of your network. And it's it's all about you know,
being professional, you know, doing good work, you know, not
(49:55):
being crazy, you know, not being you know, because sometimes
you know, people get their foot in the door.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show, and.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
They shoot themselves in the foot. You know. It's it's
it's almost comical because a lot of filmmakers, you know,
they get themselves in the door and then they just start,
you know, immediately start making all these mistakes, and you know,
it just it really compounds, you know, and that's why
you really want to make sure because I mean, now
after you've done this, I mean it's like, you know, hey, hey, Cynthia,
what was your last project?
Speaker 5 (50:29):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (50:29):
Hey, I worked with Hendrick Commotorsports, and you know, we
did this and this and this, and you know, I
mean that that's just that's huge, you know, that's absolutely huge.
Speaker 5 (50:38):
We filmed with with Dale Junior, who everybody told me
that he would never wear a wireless mic, and we
you know, sometimes you would agree, you know. So we
spent really nice time with him, and that to me
is meaningful to be able to develop those kinds of
relationships and it is important. You know, the downside to
(50:58):
being in North Carolina it is that my network is
not extensive. I joke that I have a lot of
pig farmers in my network, which they're really important and
I appreciate them. But it's you know, it's it's difficult
because we are here. But you know, the benefits are
that I do have an extensive network here and the
(51:22):
folks here do trust do trust me, and and trust
the team that we have in place, and so when
we show up that does mean a lot.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah, and you know, again you never know what door
is going to open, you know. And again I like
how you know you mentioned again where you were, because
you know, every everything's different again, everything has changed, which
sort of you know, brings us back to full circle,
which I was, which was what you know, we open
up the podcast with you could be a filmmaker now, Uh,
you know across the America and it's it's opened a
(51:53):
lot of doors, Cynthia. I know, we've actually just run
out of time. So where can people find you out onlinethea.
Speaker 5 (52:01):
You made me or just my company name is Mark
Media m A r kay Media dot com. And The
Road to Ray Day, which is the NASCAR series, was
just released on the Complex Next Complex Network's platform Go
ninety and so it's currently streaming the next The last
(52:25):
episode is premiering tomorrow, so all the episodes will be
up after tomorrow. And my other films are somewhat harder
to fine. Private Violence, which was the last film with HBO.
That one I think you can find on Amazon and Hulu,
(52:48):
and A Chef's Life is on PBS. Season five is
premiering in October, so that one's still going strong.
Speaker 3 (52:57):
Yeah. So we got to talking, Cynthia, and we ran
out of time with because I was going to talk.
I had notes to talk about, uh, you know, all
of your all of your work, and you know, we
just you know, one of those things right out of time.
But but I'm going to link to everything in the
show notes everyone at Dave Bulls dot com. Twitter, it's
at dave Underscore Bullets, and I'm going to link to
all of Cynthia's social media as well, so you could
(53:19):
follow her and see all the really cool stuff that
she's up to.
Speaker 5 (53:24):
Thanks Dave, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
Oh my pleasure, Cynthia. And if you ever want to
come back sometime we talk, you know, more about your
next projects and you know, and then the other projects
we didn't get a chance to talk about, let me know,
you know, and you know, I love to have you
back on Happy too.
Speaker 5 (53:38):
It's fun. It is kind of like therapy. And maybe
just listen to that because I have a tendency not
to be PC, so maybe listen to the guest worker
stuff just to make sure I didn't say something too offensive,
because sometimes I say things that I don't know offensive
and they become offensive without me knowing it.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
So now it's all good. So everything's offensive nowadays.
Speaker 5 (54:04):
That's true. It is true. It can be, but you know,
I think it's like for me, it's it's you know,
I we work really hard to be inclusive and the
team I have in place, you know, we've we've built
a diverse team, and we work with a lot of
women too, and so we we spend a lot of
(54:26):
time trying to tell stories that have meaning and beyond
just you know the meaning of my demographic.
Speaker 3 (54:34):
So we try no and I and I I think
you do very well. And I honestly and uh, that's
why I wanted to have you on this podcast. And
again I want to link to everything of yours in
the show notes, and you know, people can check out
your work and uh, you know, I want to see
and obviously I hope you continue to move forward with
(54:56):
this and and you continue to uh to build that pilmography.
Speaker 5 (55:00):
Thank you. I appreciate it. I hope so hopefully I
won't burn out.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
Don't go back to pharmacy. That's what I'm that's the
message of this whole podcast is, don't go back to pharmacy.
Speaker 5 (55:09):
I don't know if I can anymore. I lost my job.
That's all right. I needed it. I needed that kicking
the butt.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Yeah, exactly right. It's like the old Roman army when
they got to a new country, they'd burn their boats.
Speaker 5 (55:25):
Yeah, this is it, you gotta yeah, there's no Yeah, Yeah, we're.
Speaker 3 (55:30):
Swimming Cynthia, Cynthia Hill, I want to say thank you
so much for coming on and I do wish you
the best of luck.
Speaker 5 (55:38):
Thank you, thanks so much, Dave.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
For it slash for twenty seven. Thank you so much
for listening. Guys, As always, keep on writing no matter what.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at bullet
Group Screenwriting dot tv.
Speaker 6 (56:08):
Mm hmm
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