BPS 433: No Film School, No Problem Gary King's Journey of Grit and Creativity

Episode Transcript
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Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four thirty three.
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Speaker 4 (01:39):
No, it's my pleasure, Gary, because you are a person
who I've had, who I've had, who I've wanted to
have on here for a while. You see, I'm already
messing up Grey. You see that I've had to I
wanted to have you on here for a while. And
I know I say that a lot, but honestly, you
and I have you know, talked briefly before via face

(02:00):
Book and Twitter, and then there was like a gap
and then we were talking briefly again. So you know,
you're just a person who I met years ago, who
I now get to have in this medium, and it's
so good to actually reconnect and and you know, do
something like this.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
I think it's just so cool, you know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (02:15):
Yeah, man, I appreciate again you inviting me, because Twitter,
you know, years ago, was actually a great place to
network and meet people, actually physically meet people after you
connect online, and it's changed a little bit into more
of like a news feed. So I appreciate the fact
that you would follow up or you did keep in touch,
because I think we did meet years ago when it

(02:36):
kind of first started. And I've just seen you blow
up and I have to kind of do a little
side note here and say, your voice and your style
reminds me of like an eighties DJ, back when I
was like commuting to school. I'm kind of old, you know,
so you know there was these like shock jock DJs,
not that you do a lot of cussing and you know,

(02:56):
all these weird kind of antics and stuff, but you
have that voice that really draws you in and stuff,
and so you know, I think this is a really
cool thing that you're doing.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
Gary. That is a huge compliment because I love the eighties.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
It was the best era of all time and in
the in the course of all human history, the eighties
is still the best time to ever be alive, and
I appreciate that so much.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Now my ego is going to be out of control now, Gary.

Speaker 6 (03:20):
It is. It is.

Speaker 5 (03:21):
It'd be like just to feed you get one more time,
Like you would be like one of the guys in
rotation at WKRP.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
I'm like, hey, this is David Gay RP. And I'd
have like a horn or something like, you know, like exactly,
and you're like, man, this guy's either you think he's
brilliant or or your dad would be driving and be like,
what the hell is this clown doing on the radio?

Speaker 6 (03:43):
Exactly, Man, exactly.

Speaker 4 (03:44):
So Gary, you and I again because we met a
few years ago, but you and I actually have a
same sorry, a similar trajectory, a similar a similar career
path because you actually started out in IT and and
development and stuff like that, and then you moved to
New York to become a filmmaker. And I want to
ask about that, just the sort of stories at the beginning.
So I assume went to college for maybe computer science

(04:08):
or something similar. So at what point did were you
draw into like the IT work? I mean, were you
always a big IT guy growing up?

Speaker 5 (04:17):
Actually it was HR and not IT because I'm not
really technical.

Speaker 6 (04:22):
I actually suck at that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 (04:23):
My brother was the engineer of the family, and I
went and fell into psychology for a while and got
a degree in psychology and did human resources for five years,
and it just wasn't a creative world, you know, like
HR is all about rules and regulations, hiring and firing,
and it's just kind of a very depressing realm that

(04:43):
you live in. And after five years, there was kind
of some way offs going around where it made me
kind of wake up from what I was doing what
I really wanted to do. And I was very lucky
having my wife answered me when I told her I
wanted to make films for a living instead of what
the hell are you talking about? Her? You know, there
was nothing like that. She just said to me, Okay,

(05:05):
so let's figure out how we're going to get you there.
I mean, it was like the perfect response. And this
was like mid two thousands and yeah. So we've been
going at it for a long time and every film
that I do just gets me closer to the goal.

Speaker 6 (05:16):
But I'm definitely not even close to where I want
to be.

Speaker 5 (05:19):
But it was definitely something where I had a love
for it growing up because my parents showed me all
these types of movies from different genres into fin errors
when I was a kid, and that stuck with me
the whole time.

Speaker 6 (05:31):
Even when I went and.

Speaker 5 (05:32):
Studied psychology, I didn't realize there was film school. I
didn't realize people made films for a living, and that
was part of the issue. That's why I didn't go
to film school. I studied something else. But thankfully, as
you know, nowadays, you don't actually have to go to
film school. You actually have to just go make films.
And that's part of the process of learning.

Speaker 4 (05:48):
Yeah, because you know, everyone has a camera nowadays and
even making practice films. And you know that's something that
has been talked about in this podcast through a myriad
of guests, is just that if even if you don't
have access to me maybe like a red package or
or like an a Sony was the Airflex package, you
know you have even if you take your phone and
do it like Mark Duplas says, and just make a

(06:10):
movie in your backyard for a hundred bucks or whatever.
It's all training to build you, to make you get
better so you can do other things, to do more
things to do. Incident, now instead of one hundred dollar budget,
you got a two undred dollars budget, and then you
just keep moving forward.

Speaker 6 (06:23):
Exactly, man, exactly.

Speaker 5 (06:24):
There's nothing more educational than going and like writing something,
trying to translate it from the page to the screen
by working with your crew, working with actors, trying to
produce the damn thing, you know, and then you're trying
to edit the footage to make it seem like you know,
you had some type of you know, idea that was
that made sense at the time. There's like I'm paraphrasing
Woody Yellen when he says something like I have this

(06:47):
perfect film idea in my head and then I slowly
mess it up as I write it and direct it,
and you know, all that defini when it comes out.
So it's such a learning lesson to do every film.
I'm still learning. And the funny thing is, you know,
all my films, the feature films that've done, are out
there and it's basically my film school.

Speaker 6 (07:03):
They're almost like student films if you think about it.

Speaker 4 (07:07):
You know, So you were talking about Woody Allen and
that that's also a guy who you know, some of
the things that he talks about and some of the
pointed things that he says are just like you're like, oh,
that's exactly what my problem is.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
You know, yeah, that's what I was doing.

Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, just to take a
step back, you know, I want to talk about just
in your background you mentioned HR and see this is
me Gary. When I see Silicon Valley, I'm immediately like,
okay it guy coding, you.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
Know, something with computer science.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
But so you worked in the corporate world, and that
that's where I was, you know, about what a year
ago or so, I worked at a college and it
was just like, you realize, you don't.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
Want to do it anymore.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
It's such a grind. So you moved down to New
York to become a filmmaker. I mean, did you, I
mean just to sort of to dig a little deeper
into that. Did you have a plan that this was
going to be it drive like a day that you
sat and said, listen, I'm not going to work this
job anymore beyond this day and I'm just going to
go to New York and become a filmmaker.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Or did you sort of just do it on a whim?

Speaker 6 (08:10):
It was kind of it was a loose plan.

Speaker 5 (08:12):
It was definitely My wife had friends and family out
in New York, so we we were living in the
BA area Silicon Valley, and we said, okay, New York
or LA are probably the two most prominent places where
we can get stuff down done in network and all
that stuff. And she's from upstate New York, so a
lot of her friends actually moved down into the city
and had she worked for the hospitality industry, so she

(08:36):
put out feelers to both New York and LA and
I just said, okay, so wherever you land your job,
that's Fate telling us that's where we need to go.
And those are the people I'm supposed to meet because
I had no connections, and it just figured, you know,
I was just going to let you know, Fate play
a hand and who I'm going to work with, and
what kind of stories I'm going to tell, what kind
of locations we're going to use, And it ended up
being New York and it was an amazing experience. Again,

(09:00):
the part of the plan was my wife was going
to have the stable job while I was just starting fresh.
We did cash out my four and one K, which
wasn't much after go to Uncle Sam took taxes away,
but we used that to make my first feature film.
I saved up a little bit more and when we
moved out there, I made contexts by doing some web
commercials and doing some other smaller projects first to build

(09:23):
up a network of people that saw my passion, saw
what I was trying to do, knew there wasn't much
money in it, but because of the story I written
and the things that I wanted to do, they were
in it for a little pay, knowing that we were
going to try to make something that was going to
get a lot of exposure for them.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
So when you made that first film, Gary, did you
write for the budget? And no, Hey, listen, I can't
make a huge action film.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
I can't make a four million dollar action film or
something like that. So did you write knowing this has
to be a small, compacted film? Small not obviously, you know,
it's professional and everything. I just met like small as
in scope again because we're not right, We're not trying
to make a four million dollar action film.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 5 (10:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (10:14):
So yes and no.

Speaker 5 (10:16):
Because my first feature film was called New York Lately,
and at the time I was really inspired by Robert
Altman and Pete t. Anderson and very a kaleidoscope of characters,
you know, following multiple storylines like shortcuts and boogie nights.

Speaker 6 (10:29):
The thing was, I also picked.

Speaker 5 (10:32):
That type of project because I was asking at the
time actors to work for no money. It would just
be the wonderful meals, copy and credit. So what I
wanted to do was have a lot of characters so
that each actor was only committing three to four days
of filming. It would still be a feature film, but
you know, the majority of actors were only committing three
to five days of their time and not like sixteen

(10:55):
twenty twenty five days of no pay, because I really
feel like shit if I was doing that. But this
was something we were casting a lot of newcomers, a
lot of people that hadn't had a lot of experience
at the time.

Speaker 6 (11:07):
One of them actually is blown up.

Speaker 5 (11:08):
She's on You're the Worst is Kelvin donnaghue, and she
was in a small role in my film at the time.

Speaker 6 (11:13):
She had some credits and she filmed for one day,
you know.

Speaker 5 (11:17):
So it was kind of just trying to be practical
about asking for people's time and commitment, knowing you weren't
paying to make a multiple storyline, a lot of actors
and characters, and then just being inspired by the type
of films at that time that I was digging. So
I just wanted to kind of combine those two.

Speaker 4 (11:34):
So let me ask you this, Gary, did you ever
when Heather got you know, was just got that a level,
elite level, did you try to reach out to her
and she say, who are you or something like that.

Speaker 5 (11:48):
Actually, no, you know, the funny thing was I moved
to LA right, I think as she booked it, or
was a little bit before she booked it. So she
moved to LA before I did, about four years ago
or something like that, and we connected for dinner and uh,
you know, just cut up and then she booked it.

Speaker 6 (12:07):
And so you know, she.

Speaker 5 (12:08):
Definitely thanked me when I text her, like holy shit,
congrats and stuff. And I mean, obviously he's busy now,
so she won't write me back is often, but she
definitely does respond.

Speaker 6 (12:19):
She's a very sweet girl.

Speaker 4 (12:20):
Yeah, and you know that's awesome. And uh, you know,
I always make that joke with friends of mine if
any of us ever, you know, won a contest or
got distribution, it'd be like, immediately it all goes to
your head.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
And become you know, like your ego just gets that
so out of whack.

Speaker 4 (12:36):
And we all make that joke with each other that
like as soon as one of us hits like, we're
not going to know anybody anymore, You're just gonna be
a big time with everybody.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Right.

Speaker 5 (12:45):
It's almost like you make it and you like buy
a new phone and don't import your contact so you're like,
you're like, who the hell is this now? Like you're
not gonna you know, told you're gonna change your whole
like click of people or something that'd be that would
be actually pretty.

Speaker 4 (12:57):
Terrible, And you know that that's the dream, Gary, that's
the dream. No, I'm just kidding. If everyone listening, I'm
just making a joke. I don't want people writing me
more hate mail. But but but walking aside, Gary, just
to get back.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
To, you know, to your career.

Speaker 4 (13:13):
One thing that you taught me, and this was what
you taught me a few years ago, which I've always
kept with me, was when you're filming a movie and
and you're the director and you're directing these actors and
you're going through take and take and take. One thing
you taught me that I always keep with me is
each take you need to have a variation of something
so that way, when you're editing, you have choices to

(13:33):
go through. And as as you know pointed as that is.
For some reason, when I was making my first films,
I don't know why, I'd never thought of just even
trying to do anything different, because like my early films,
everything was like every everything was the same, Like every
take was literally like exactly the same. And when you
told me that, I was like, oh, yeah, that actually
makes a lot of sense, you know what I mean,

(13:53):
And you make those adjustments. So so that's something Gary
that you've taught me that I've kept with me is
just you gotta you gotta have those choices when you're
in the editing room.

Speaker 5 (14:02):
Yeah. Man, that's funny because that basically happened on my
first short film. When I was sitting there reviewing the
footage with my brother. He was like, dude, like every take,
like all these takes are the same thing. You didn't
deal with do anything else, So am I what are
you trying to even choose? Except like if his hand,
you know, happens to like randomly lift up at this

(14:22):
line versus this other line, or whatever you know, but
basically I hadn't on that first film, didn't tell me
to do anything different because I was just looking for
this single thing. I was so focused. I'm trying to
get this one thing that you know, I didn't really
ask them to play around. But I mean directors have
different techniques. Some people like definitely have one single thing
in mind and they're just trying to nail that one thing.

(14:43):
And that's what it is. And I've heard other actors
say that, you know, why do I want to play
around with stuff? Like, just tell me what you want,
I'm gonna nail it.

Speaker 6 (14:49):
So it's funny.

Speaker 5 (14:50):
It's like it's it's this kind of organic thing that
you feel on set. You know what you want and
you have to feel out how the actor and how
the actor works and stuff. So it's it's it's really
really a weird thing to work as a director because
you actually don't get to do it a lot.

Speaker 6 (15:06):
Or not me, I don't get to do it a lot.
You know.

Speaker 5 (15:07):
You there's like years in between times when you're on set.
You can do some smaller short projects or things like that.
But when you think about it, the director, if you're fortunate,
maybe you get to do two or three projects a year.
If you're you know, if you're playing around a lot more,
that's great. But if you're doing like really big projects
with a lot of money, the opportunity to work with
actors is not as much. When the you know, when

(15:30):
the money's going, when the crew is there and everything's
on the line, like there's not you don't get to
do that very often. So it's not like you get
a lot of practice.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, and very true.

Speaker 4 (15:39):
And you know that's why again we're talking about making
movies yourself with you know, even just for practice, so
that way when you do actually get up to the plate,
you know, you're actually able to sort of make the most.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
Of every every single take and everything.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
And you know, as we sort of you know, talk
about that, you know, these directing styles. One thing too,
I forget who taught me this, but basically I think
I think I maybe heard it from somebody. But he
said what he would do is he would just let
he would let the actors go the first take was
with no direction. They would just go through the script
and then he then he would slowly come back in

(16:13):
and start making adjustments here or there. And you know,
some people are you know maybe their their third take
is always going to be their best for some weird reason,
and then the other actor always has their best take
is like the first take, you know, and just sort
of working and knowing everybody sort of ticks like that
or knowing that sort of thing. You know, that also
helps repair, which is also why Gary, I've noticed a

(16:34):
lot of directors always work with the same actors over
and over again.

Speaker 5 (16:39):
Right, very true, very true. A part of the rehearsal process,
if I'm lucky to get it, is finding out actors
working style.

Speaker 6 (16:46):
You know.

Speaker 5 (16:47):
Some people love to be told exactly what to do,
like look here at this line and look there, and
others want to be told what's my motivation? Like why
am I doing this? I need to know and feel
organically if you need me to go over here or
do this, like tell me like my internal characters motivation
or behaviors or thoughts to be.

Speaker 6 (17:06):
Able to do that.

Speaker 5 (17:08):
So you can always explore that working relationship in rehearsals
if you have a luxury. But you're right, it is
funny because as you start filming, you realize, damn this
this one actress, Okay, her best takes or take one
and two, and then it just starts to you know,
fills a lot because she comes out of gates like boom,
you know, right there. And then there's others where like,
you know, we're not really going to get anything good

(17:28):
until takes four, five, and six, because we've consistently seen that,
and you start, you know, you know, switching up your
shot lists because of that, which is hilarious. So, I mean,
there's so so many different things going on set as
a director. It's funny that you got to think about
things like that. And I'm talking to you about this
because not really, it doesn't get talked about a lot
until you actually do it and you realize, oh, that's

(17:48):
how it works, you know, although I see, like books
don't tell you this kind of stuff a lot of
the time.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
Yeah, and that's so true because you know, I have
a ton of filmmaking books, and you know, as I've
sort of read them through different eyes, you know, you
read reading through the eyes of like a complete novice,
you know, your complete needs, and then you really and
then you realize some of these books they're written by
people who've either never written or made a film, and
it's a lot of theory or they made a film
like thirty years ago and you're like, well, you know, okay,

(18:16):
some of it's still pertinent, but some of it's just like,
you know, hey, here's a great deal in a movieola
and you're like, what the heck. So it's you know,
it's just stuff like that, and you realize, well, damn,
this book's out of date.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
And but but you know, that's why I wanted to
start this podcast.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
Stuff like that, you know, really getting into the nitty
of gritty of stuff that people can actually take away.
And it's actually full on, you know, actual practical advice,
no theory, it's just this is how it is, and
this is what you can do when a situation like
that arrives exactly.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
Man, the funniest thing I definitely in the beginning of
my career, like twelve ten, twelve years ago, I bought
a lot of screenplaybooks. And obviously, when people are writing
and they're reading these screen how to you know, how
to write green plays? You just take the golden nuggets
from each book. Obviously, not every book is the Bible.
We have to follow to the te you know, but

(19:08):
it's funny when you actually look at these authors, when
you actually research. Like you said, you take a look
at their actual filmography, like what have they done? And
sometimes it's nothing or Okay, they've sold a lot of stuff,
which is great, nothing has been made or some people
like have sold one thing. So obviously they have some
type of credentials, but they're not the only one that
knows how to do it, which is you know, the

(19:28):
funniest thing, because I had some people try to tell me, oh,
your script doesn't follow Robert McKee. It's like, well, that's fine.
You know, I don't want to follow Robert McKee's story.
This script doesn't want to, you know, do his formula.
There's they prescribe just to one book, which kind of
drives me mad.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
You know, I have. I did the same thing.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
The first book I ever read was actually a screenplay
formatting book. It was called the Screenwriners Bible, and I
did read the story and you know, by McKee.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Right back after a word from our sponsor and now
back to the show.

Speaker 4 (20:08):
And you know, I've read all these different books and
I think you you know, I'm in the same boat
with you because I think a lot of the times
there's so much theory going on that eventually you have
to say, what can I use out of this book?
It's kind of what Bruce Lee you always say, you know,
you get rid of take what's useful, and get rid
of the rest.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
And you're always you're always looking for that.

Speaker 4 (20:26):
You're always looking for like what is that one quote
or golden nugget that I'm going to read? That's good,
I'm gonna go aha, I have an aha moment, and
now my perception has changed and that has given me
a new way of thinking to solve a problem or
a dilemma or something like that. But you really, those
books are really it's far few and far between because
you're trying to, you know, constantly have all this theory

(20:49):
and worry about all these formulas like oh, my gosh,
does this scene have a positive or negative charge? You're like,
what the hell does that even freaking mean? You know,
you're you're have all this theory in these books and
you sit there and you go, well, how do I
actually implement that? You know, you can't be writing and
go writing to a formula or writing to a template
or writing to oh does this scene of a negative

(21:10):
or positive charge? And eventually you start getting lost in
your own head and then you never actually you get
stuck an indecision and never actually do anything.

Speaker 5 (21:19):
Yeah, that's totally true, because you're right, you just start
overthinking things. And part of the goal is just to
finish a script. To me that I have so many
people that have said, oh, I'm working on a script.
I'm writing this, I'm writing that. I've gotten an idea.
I always say, have you finished it? Have you finished
a draft? Well, no, I haven't.

Speaker 6 (21:37):
It's like, man, you know, it's like you got to
get over that hump.

Speaker 5 (21:40):
There's a lot of people that have this fear of
just like actually finishing it and getting that feedback. And
I call it the vomit draft. There's a million different
names for the first draft. You just got to get
it out there, done and give it to some trusted
readers and just get that kind of feedback because again,
almost like making a film, it's writing a script is
a learning lesson because after you write it, you've learned

(22:01):
so much. You have something on the page to analyze
and dissect now and get some feedback and then rewrite.

Speaker 6 (22:07):
Because as they say, the cliche is writing is rewriting.

Speaker 4 (22:10):
Yeah, writing is rewriting definitely, because once you get that out.
You have to think you can go back and figure
out what actually things are. Oh, this is what this means.
And I think a lot of times too, that's where
you get sort of caught up. I think a lot
of times where writers get caught up. Honestly, Gary is
input versus output. And here's what I mean by that.
I think a lot of times when writers are writing
a script or maybe even on the filmmakers are making

(22:31):
a short film or a feature length film, they're more
focused on the output of what the movie is going
to give. That meaning they're that all this movie is
going to go to Sundance and we're gonna win and
we're all going to become millionaires overnight.

Speaker 6 (22:43):
And I guilty.

Speaker 4 (22:45):
I think we've all had that, honestly, man, I think
we've all had that where it's like, Hey, this short
film this, I'm gonna put this up on YouTube or
I'm gonna do this, and we're going to become, you know,
overnight sensations and that's going to be our meal ticket.
And I and I honestly think you have to have
that attitude at some point because you have to have
some kind of passion or in the game that you're

(23:05):
going to be the best one, And I honestly I
think that's actually a good thing. But I think the
other part of it is it's like a double edged
sword because then you become so focused on what it's
going to give you that you're not focused on that
input of actually making it a good movie.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
You're focused on the right parts of it.

Speaker 5 (23:22):
I totally agree it's a hard thing to balance. You definitely,
you know you want to make a living at it,
so you want that type of success, but it shouldn't
be your driving goal when you're creating, because then you're
kind of guessing what some other person wants when it
should be your story. It should be what you want
to tell and the byproduct of that. And as always

(23:43):
you see that, especially at the film festivals and the
festival darlings. Usually it's the more personal the story, it's
actually the more accessible it is to an audience because
they still relate to it because they see that struggle.
Regardless of race or gender or sexual orientation and whatnot,
they relate to that struggle, you know. So it's something
where the more watered down and the more you're trying

(24:05):
to guess, the more story by committee the film is
and it's just becomes something that nobody really cares about.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
Yeah, there's universal themes that really could sort of you know,
hit home. And also when I noticed when the movie
does come with a story like hey this is my
biopic or hey this is you know, something that's actually
happened to me, and it's a you know, I mean
I've had you know, different people who I actually had
a Sundance Award when are on here, which was Morgan
Jay Freeman. He's episode ninety nine. He was actually on here.

(24:34):
He actually won Sundance I think in what ninety two
or something, and he was explaining, you know how the
whole thing sort of came together, and you know, it's
you know, it was a movie about these kids in
New York and a lot of people were like, hey,
you know what that's it has a universal theme. Or
you can grow up anywhere like this, and you know
you'll feel some of that, you know, you'll feel some
of that, some of those universal themes like ostracization, being

(24:57):
a kid, you know, you know, stuff like that. And
you know that's why it's not a bad thing to
put any of that stuff in a screenplay.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
I you know, I was a part of a writers
group one time, and people.

Speaker 4 (25:07):
Were actually saying, like, oh, why does everything have to
have universal themes blah blah this or that. I'm like
because it, you know, it's what draws people into your story.
You know, feelings, regret and stuff like that. Everyone has those,
and I think that that's a key element to sort
of why some screenplays sell, get made, et cetera.

Speaker 5 (25:24):
You know, yeah, it's funny too, because there's there's not
a formula at all. I mean, I made my most
successful one to date was in festival Wise. Critically Wise
was how do you write a Joe Sherman's on my musical?
And it's about browdie musicians, about Broadway people aspiring for success,
and some characters are people that haven't reached it and

(25:48):
they almost have to give up their career and it's
about you know, striving but not getting there ever. And
even though it's about Broadway, it had so many people
at the festival circuit come up to me and said, man,
I just really up for this character or that character's me.
Even they're not a dancer or a singer, but within
their life they had some type of goal that they
never reached. And they never got to get there, and

(26:10):
they will never get there. And so it's again, like
you said, a universal theme. It can be any topic
or subject setting, but there's something there that people relate to.
And that was powerful for me to learn from that
film because I made other films that I thought were
great and they you know, didn't turn out how I
thought they were going to be. And you know, the
festivals didn't really take to them. Audiences you know, some

(26:34):
some liked it, some didn't. So it's just, you know,
once you have that type of critical success, it's not
like you can just copy and paste it to the
next thing.

Speaker 4 (26:42):
You know.

Speaker 5 (26:43):
It's always it's such an organic, interesting process to try
to just create something that people will respond to.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, and that's the key.

Speaker 4 (26:51):
That's why I think a lot of times when people
take these movies and they sort of they deconstruct them.
They'll take like The Godfather or Raging Bowl or whatever,
and they take it and they reverse engineer it and
they go, how can I make that? Oh, well, you
see this one scene here in Scarface where he kills
the guy unexpectedly, Well, that that's what you that that's
his hero's turning point. Blah, blah blah blah blah. I'm like, Okay,

(27:13):
you know, at first, you when you when you're reading
screen when you're reading these screenwrining books, you're like, oh, wow, yeah,
that that's a brilliant that's a brilliant thing to say.
That's a brilliant analytical statement. But then as you sort
of realize, well, but how does that work towards us,
you know, well, maybe yeah, you might be able to say, hey,
if someone's reading your screenplay, hey remember in Scarface when
he did this thing.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Oh yeah, it might be cool here.

Speaker 4 (27:34):
Maybe I don't know, but I mean, like, you know,
but to write using that whole idea, I don't know
if that's that's that holds a lot of weight to it.
You know, you want to you don't want to be
ripping off movies. I actually had a friend of mine
who was in a screen running competition, but he was
a judge, and he literally said he would read these
screenplays and he said, Okay, this is a scene from
The Godfather, this is a scene from uh, you know,

(27:57):
uh Casino, stuff like that, And he realize they're just
copying these movies because you know, that's what they like,
and they're trying to make a version of that.

Speaker 6 (28:06):
Right, that's true.

Speaker 5 (28:07):
But you know what, Dave, I think every script needs
the line. You know, first you get the power. Once
you get the power, and you get the women, like
everyone needs that. I just kidding, but yeah, no, I
mean it's so true though, like you can't you can't.

Speaker 6 (28:24):
Just like I said, copy and paste things.

Speaker 5 (28:26):
They can definitely be inspired by stuff, but you know,
you can be influenced by things. But to try to
just say it worked there, it's a moment I can
think that that I think will just work here because
it worked there. That's that's a little hard to kind
of like force it in. So you know, it's something
where it's it's a learning lesson. Again, I think people

(28:48):
definitely once they finish that script and get that feedback,
you can tell when something's you know, authentic and.

Speaker 6 (28:54):
Should be there.

Speaker 5 (28:54):
Whereas people be like, this feels like it's from a
left field because it was doing this and all of
a sudden put this scene in here, and it totally
doesn't make sense, you know.

Speaker 4 (29:03):
Yeah, And you know, I do agree that that line
should be in every movie, by the way, and that
that should be I take that back, It should be
in every movie, and uh that that that is uh
you know that is something that that it just lets
you know who the guy is. You know who let
who the guy is, and they wants the women in
the power and and everything. So, you know, guys, as
we're talking sort of too about you know, making writing

(29:25):
screenplays and and actually all these sort of fine points
about directing, I wanted to ask about your second feature
film because after you made your first feature, or after
you made your first film in New York, you know, where,
at what point did you start wanting to make your
second one. You were already like, look, I'm gonna use
this momentum and push this right into my second film,
which was I think, uh it was Dying of the Dead,
right or.

Speaker 6 (29:46):
It's actually I got lucky.

Speaker 5 (29:48):
I got hired to make a horror movie called Dismal
by some producers who were based in North Carolina, and
we went to shoot in Georgia.

Speaker 6 (29:55):
So that was just a director for hire.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,

Speaker 5 (30:07):
And I wanted to gain that experience of working with
somebody else's script, working with a producer, working on location.
So I was out in Georgia for like I think
five or six weeks. So it's something I, you know,
got very lucky with and I was really excited because
I started looking like Woody Allen or you know, Steven Soderberg,
like I was pumping out like wow, this this year,

(30:28):
I got two movies coming out. And then the next
year I had What's Up Lovely, which I was doing
on my own, and I made it for like two
thousand dollars, So I had three movies coming out in
two years. So I was like, this is cool. This
is something I'm going to keep doing because that's it
feels so easy, you know, like.

Speaker 6 (30:43):
Movie the Year.

Speaker 5 (30:43):
Yeah, this is a great pace. Obviously it doesn't doesn't
work like that.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Yeah, so sorry.

Speaker 4 (30:49):
Eventually the break starts a slam and you're like, oh man,
you know, and I think we've all been there too,
where you're like, well, what the hell's next and you
just want to make something, you know, like I'll make anything.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Let's just do this thing.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
Uh So I but I but I what I meant
to say was death of the dead. I'm sorry, I
call it dying of the dead, but death of the day.
So I'm starting to like all you know, all the
ramerror movies are coming into no but I'm just kidding.
But uh, but when you actually so, when you started
to actually go back and make your own films, you know,
at what point were you just like, you know, I

(31:23):
want to go back to.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Making my own stuff.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
I mean, you did say you got a director for hire,
gig and you got to work with somebody else's script.
But at what point were you like, you know, I
want to go back to just you know, doing some
more of my own, my own material.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
You know, at that time, I was really really inspired
by Steven Soderberg and his body of work at you know,
his commercial peak was I think got the late nineties,
mid two thousands, where he was doing we were saying,
we were calling it the one for one for me,
one for them, one for them, one for me. So
he was doing you know, Aaron Brockovich for the studio,

(31:58):
but then he'd go and make the or he make
Out of Sight for the CEO. Then he'd go and
make some gosh full as a full frontal I think
it was called. So he'd make you know, smaller independent films,
experimental stuff like The Girlfriend and Experience. I was in
love with him doing smaller films that were taking risks
and doing different type of storytelling, and then he'd makes

(32:20):
something for the studio, And obviously I was doing on
a way lower budget, way lower scale and scope, but
that was kind of like my idol at the time,
just like, you know, if I can sustain this thing
where I'm going to make something for myself and then
go get hired to do something and take some of
that money and you know, funnel it back into mind
to make another film for myself, like this could be

(32:41):
kind of cool. And that's what I was trying to
do in my early early career with the first I
think four films or so.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
Yeah, you know Steven Soderberg, He's always up to something,
and it's always really cool to see directors like that.
I have a friend of mine he loves Richard link
Letter because Richard just does whatever he wants. I mean,
if you watch the same thing exactly, because if you
watched uh, his latest one, which I think is called
Everyone Loves Some or Everyone Wants Some, Uh, that one
that was that last year. I had a friend of

(33:08):
mine who watched it and was like, Dave, is there
a plot to this movie? And I said, I said, well, no,
it's Richard Linkletter. It's just you know, it is what
it is, and uh, you know, it's it's I knew
what to expect going in there, you know. And and
that's sort of why I think everybody wants to have
now the director's career who everyone wants to have is
of course Damien Chase, because you know he did he

(33:30):
did uh.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Lot of Land and then he did with all that
whip whiplash.

Speaker 5 (33:37):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
Yeah I could I just blanked down in that name.
But uh but yeah, but you know, and that's sort
of the thing is. You know, again, I think a
lot of people are are focused on that, on that output,
because again you're the saying, well, Damien now can pretty
much do whatever he wants.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
He used to be Tarantino.

Speaker 4 (33:52):
Everyone wanted his career because and and that's where I'm
guilty at Gary. I still want his career just because
he came out of no where working at a video store.
That's what I love is that he didn't go to
film score or anything else.

Speaker 5 (34:05):
Yeah. Yeah, man, I mean that's I remember you on
your other podcast you mentioned that you worked I think
at a video store. I worked at a Blockbuster up
in Seattle for a summer one summer while I was
in school, and it was awesome.

Speaker 6 (34:18):
Man.

Speaker 5 (34:18):
And again I didn't go to film school either, and
so it's something where just watching films, absorbing them and
then again is more about the actual making of them.

Speaker 6 (34:29):
Is the education you need. Film school was amazing, don't
get me wrong.

Speaker 5 (34:32):
If I had the chance that the networking opportunity is amazing.
The people, the connections to get, the alumni connections you
get once you start entering the industry are totally totally amazing.

Speaker 6 (34:46):
And that's something I wish i'd done.

Speaker 5 (34:48):
But I met so many people that have gone to
film school or no people that have gone, and they say, oh,
well they you know, they don't really they don't really
make movies though they don't really know how to like
direct movies. They've done some shorts, but they've never done
a feature or whatever. So it's you know, it's still
a live sword. But it's something I think everyone was

(35:08):
living that dream when you wanted to be Tarantino or
Rubber rigaz back in the nineties, and like you said,
Dame Gazelle, now it's there's so many that's a good thing,
like you have idols to aspire to be, which is,
you know, keeps your fire going.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
So when you worked at that Blockbuster in Seattle, do
you have any funny stories, Gary, any funny customer stories any?

Speaker 5 (35:29):
Oh? Yeah, uh yeah. The best one I remember was
we had a tape, you know, the dropbox, the overnight dropbox.
So we come in the morning shift, we go through
the bin, empty the drop box, and you always have
to do the check. So like it says back lash
the Mohicans, you have to open up the case and
make sure it's last Mohicans in there, you know. So

(35:50):
we're going through the check to make sure for the
tapes are correct. And I open up the case and
the title is just let's say lash the Mohicans. I
can't remember exactly what was, but it was wasn't that tape.
All it had was this label that said X handwritten X.
I'm like, what's this?

Speaker 6 (36:06):
You know what? I'm not sure what this is?

Speaker 5 (36:08):
A wet better check to see what it's I have
a feeling what it might be. The store is not opening.
I'm gonna put it on the overhead monitors just to see.
And it was full on fucking like it was a
total porn and someone had purn the wrong tape. And
it was funny because we had to look up the customer.
We had to make that embarrassing call and as soon
as we called, as soon as we called was hey,

(36:29):
this is a blockbuster. The customer that said, oh, you
got the porn, didn't you, Like he knew somehow he knew.
And so that was I think probably the weirdest, funniest story,
because I mean, who the hell re turns a porno?

Speaker 6 (36:40):
It's a blockbuster. It's just crazy.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
It's just called X.

Speaker 5 (36:45):
And yeah they label it X. I mean what that
at least name it like you know, DeBie does Dallas
or like like title unless in his house, you think
his pomographs like x X one, X two, x three,
and he has like a database because he doesn't want
his wife to know there was like porn. So he's
got like you know, some secret you know, filing system
or something.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
He's hiding it away.

Speaker 5 (37:04):
And it's weird, you know, but they're they're all late,
you know, they're all displayed nicely on the shelf. But
the wife thinks, like, oh, it's like X man or
something like who knows. But then there's something else totally.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
There could be a movie in there to Gary, like
some guy returns the tape and the Blockbuster employees like
watch this and the like, oh my god, this is
like a smut film, and then the guy comes after them.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
There's almost like a movie in there.

Speaker 5 (37:30):
That's like, I love Brian de Palmer blowout or let's
like blow up. That's like, that's totally dude, that's like
and you could set it in the eighties because like
they don't have video stories anymore, video stories anymore.

Speaker 6 (37:41):
It's like eighties or nineties. Dude, I think you got
a film.

Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah we should. We should write that together, man.

Speaker 6 (37:47):
Yeah, well, okay, so dark comedy or a suspense thriller.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
Oh you know what, I think dark comedies work better
right now.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
But it could be a cool suspense thriller to throw.

Speaker 4 (37:59):
It back, you know, just almost like that Brian de
Palma style kind of like uh, you know sisters.

Speaker 5 (38:05):
Hmm, wow, that'd be really dark. But I would love
a female lead. That'd be cool if if she's the
one that finds it and then you know, this guy
starts trying to like you said, trying to get that
tape back or.

Speaker 6 (38:17):
That's interesting that's that's uh pretty cool man.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
By the way, everyone listening to this, that's guyranized now
trademark licensed you and not gonna be in the theater,
just like eating popcorn for a preview some of the
new Tarantino Manson Family Murder movie, and you're gonna see
that's gonna be a trailer. This idea, like, wait a minute,
that was that podcast I did with Dave That was
our idea.

Speaker 6 (38:42):
Right from Paramount Studios X.

Speaker 4 (38:45):
She was a lonely videos to We're block but and
then it changed yeah right, uh yeah it'd be but
it would be you know that that would be a
fun idea to do because I know a lot of
times Kevin Smith, you can't say this is a pot
but I have Kevin Smith podcast fing in front of me,
and he always uses his podcast as sort of like
a way to sort of get new movie ideas and

(39:08):
stuff like that. I think it's great because I think
podcasting is such a really cool tool. Some people make
books out of it, like Tim Ferriss and James Autacher
and stuff like that. And I really Kevin's idea though,
just using it to sort of facilitate, you know, making
new movies and stuff like that, or.

Speaker 3 (39:24):
You know, or what have you. I think it's just
really cool as a creative outlet, you know what I mean.

Speaker 6 (39:28):
Yeah, man, that is really cool. I didn't realize he
did that.

Speaker 5 (39:31):
It's I think if you have an audience, podcasting could
be amazing, you know, because it is the way to
directly talk with them instead of having to like write
tweets or like a long Facebook post. I mean, it's
definitely something where it's a lot more you get to
like express yourself a lot more quickly and something, like
you said, organically instead of having a proofread writing and

(39:52):
then just sharing with your audience and then getting feedback
that way.

Speaker 6 (39:55):
That's that's interesting. Man.

Speaker 5 (39:56):
It's something again, if you had a pretty good listening
audience says something that really could work.

Speaker 1 (40:03):

Speaker 6 (40:12):
You know, and he has he has huge audience. I mean,
he has a huge audience.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
Yeah, he does.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
And you know, I actually have have had it on
the Thornton Brothers and they had a really cool idea
for a film that's centered around a podcast, and basically
it's about a guy who's in his basement and he's
this real far right radical guy and he has this
podcast that he uses to sort of just through all
this venom and hate to out in the world. And

(40:37):
then one day a listener comes to silence him. And
it's a really really cool it's called Cactus Jack, and
I can't wait to see them do it, and I really,
you know, just hope that that they keep pushing forward
with it.

Speaker 5 (40:51):
Now, did they they pitched it on the show to
you or they were already working on it and they
just kind of told you this is what we're doing.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
Oh yeah, they were already working on it and they
pitched it.

Speaker 5 (40:57):
Okay, okay, yeah, that's cool. I mean it sounds like
a what like a one location type of thing. It's
like a smaller budget to be able to just or
is it like a huge scope tech movie.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
It's just one one location, almost like Don't Breathe, which
I think is awesome and I'm like, guys, keep going
with that idea, man.

Speaker 6 (41:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:17):
Yeah, it's funny because they totally reminded me and it's
totally not the same film, but just pump up the
volume with Christian Slater from the eighties and he wasn't
even like a far right guy in that movie, but
he was just this underground college DJ. But they just
kind of see that setting just like if they can
get an actor to be you know, a charismatic as
Christian Slater from back then, or if it's a female.
Who knows if they're actually thinking it's gonna be a female.

(41:39):
But I mean, yeah, whoever's playing that DJ better be
fucking charismatic because they're gonna be carrying that movie a lot.

Speaker 6 (41:44):
That's that's really cool.

Speaker 4 (41:45):
Yeah, they actually did some test screen and he's actually
like real, real interesting. And by the way, I apologize
for for going off topic and I'm talking about other
people's movies.

Speaker 6 (41:53):
Sorry, no, man, No, that's awesome. That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
So let's talk more about Kevin Smith.

Speaker 4 (41:58):
Oh but yeah, but you mentioned one of your movies,
by the way, that you crowdfunded, which was how do
you write a Joe Shechrmer Song?

Speaker 3 (42:07):
I wanted to ask you about that.

Speaker 4 (42:08):
You know, you successfully crowdfunded a large portion of I
believe there was going to be an orchestra as part
of like of one of the extended goals I believe,
So I wanted to ask Gary, you know, where did
the impetus for the idea come from to actually make
this film, you know, and really, how did you go about,
you know, actually actually making it.

Speaker 5 (42:28):
So I've always loved musicals growing up. My parents showed
them to me, and it was something that I always
just enjoyed, Like I did not have a problem with
people just breaking in a song and dance, and they
showed me like Singing in the Rain, the Music Man,
My Fair Lady, and I loved them. And then I
discovered Westside Story, which is a little bit darker, but
they still broke out into song and dance, and I

(42:49):
was like, this is awesome. You know, musical is one
of my favorite genres. And then I discovered all that
jazz and I was like, wow, this blew my mind,
like the editing style and the the way the songs
were incorporated into the film versus them breaking out into
song and dance, like you know, that's a totally different
type of musical. And then Once came out and I
was like, man, okay, so this is like low key,

(43:11):
smaller film but amazing songs, you know, but shot for
one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So I was like okay,
Like I love musicals. I don't think we make enough
of them, and I wanted to do something for modern
audiences which kind of blended both the spectacle and being realistic.
So I wanted to write a story that kind of
was grounded in reality but still had some amazing songs.

(43:32):
But I never had the song. So I just had
that idea for years until after I moved to New
York again. I was there for a few years and
networked and made a few films. And Mark Deconso, one
of my lead actors from New York Lately, had a
friend named Joe Sherman, and he said, dude, I want
to show you something. We were let's see, trying to
think North Carolina. We were in North Carolina at the

(43:52):
Charlotte Film Festival and I was in Mark Schrroman. He
pulls out his laptop because I want to show you something.
It's like, dude, Mark, I don't want to watch poem
right now? Know where at a festival it's all good?
And he's like, no, no, no. This guy named Joe
Sherman he writes music and it's awesome. And he showed
me some songs and I was like, is this guy
for real? Like is he already signed. Is he doing
Broadway movie Broadway shows? He's like no, he just moved
from Minnesota and he's just you know, fresh off the

(44:16):
boat and he's like trying to make his way in
New York.

Speaker 6 (44:18):
And I was like, I got to meet this guy,
and we did.

Speaker 5 (44:20):
We talked, and I told him about my initial idea
about aspiring artists that are anonymous in New York. There's
so many, you know, amazingly talented singers and dancers in
New York, but they're your waiter, they're your server, they're
your bartender, you know, and you'll never know that they're
actually talented. That was the first spark of the idea
of the film, to be like, I want to show

(44:42):
what these people do and the struggles they go through
and the fact that you'll never know because they'll never
make it. And that evolved a little bit after, but
that was the beginning. And with his songs incorporated and
just starting to do a few drafts and just you know,
honing in the story.

Speaker 6 (45:00):
That's how it became the movie that it is.

Speaker 4 (45:04):
And you see, that's sort of how those ideas are
a ferment, you know, those ideas sort have come out
of nowhere, you know, And it's just it's just amazing
how even the simple thing that someone showing you a
video can just open up a whole new sea of
things and the whole new sea of ideas and possibilities.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
Right man, I have like, literally right now, fifteen different ideas,
and back then, you know, I was tuning around with
like three or four. But the thing that always happens
is I meet somebody, or I find a location, or
something happens where all of a sudden, that idea of
bubbles to the top. So, for among us, the film
that's coming out, the horror movie coming out August eighth,
gotta plug it.

Speaker 6 (45:41):
That film.

Speaker 5 (45:42):
I had always wanted to do a horror movie, but
you know, didn't think about it other than that, I
just want to make something scary. And again, Mark Deconso,
my usual guy, the actors that my family has a
lake house up in Maine. We could totally shoot for
next to nothing as long as we just you know,
we can stay there and just make sure we don't
screw up the house or anything. And then you know,

(46:04):
and I was like, okay, you can't blow it up. Okay,
we won't blow it up, but we'll make it a
haunted house, but I want to twist the conventions and
play with the genre so it doesn't feel like paint
by numbers type of movie. But that's you know again,
like that's why that movie came about, That's why we
shot that one next. So there's always something that comes
into play that brings the project to the to the surface.

Speaker 4 (46:23):
So you can't blow up the house, you can't. You
can't go through the walls, you can't you know, put
blood everywhere, away all your fun Gary.

Speaker 6 (46:32):
I know, man, I know.

Speaker 5 (46:33):
So then we just wrote a you know, one room
talkie movie with white walls behind it and shot on
hi aid VHS and no, just kidding, no, I mean
we definitely that was That's the part of the fun.
It's like, okay, so there's a little bit of you know, constraints,
so how are you going to be creative around that?

Speaker 6 (46:50):
And that's what how the film became what it is.

Speaker 4 (46:55):
You know, it's funny, and I do want to ask
you about the about the film again in just one second.
I want to a little anecdote about filming in a
friend's house, a friend of mine, A friend of mine.
When I did my student film, which was my first
ever film. I actually he said, hey, we can film
my grandparents' house. He goes, they're away. They have like
three houses and this is the one house that they're
not going to use and they're not using for the

(47:17):
time for a long while, and we can film there.
The first day of filming, we accidentally knocked the entire
door off the hinges. And because this guy had to
burst into a room, right, so rather than rather what
happens is the door. I've never seen a bathroom like this.

(47:39):
The door hits into the sink. There's no stopper or whatever.
So he bursts in the room and he hits the door,
gets the sink and literally the door comes off in
his hand like he's now holding the door like it's
like a prop, and he's like what. The guy goes,
what the fuck did you just do? And now we're

(47:59):
like we're trying, and we're trying to actually figure this out.
So then it becomes the idea of do we call
a carpenter or do we try to fix it ourselves?
And it's almost like a sitcom. It's almost like a
bad eighties sitcom where it's like, oh, great, now we
got to fix this.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
Door, and as we fix the door, something else has
to break.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
But we ended up on the guy's dad was actually
had a carpenter friend. He came in and he actually
fixed the door for us at a later time.

Speaker 5 (48:26):
It was just.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
It just it was just the incident itself.

Speaker 5 (48:31):
That's so two things come to mind with that story.
So number one, hopefully you use that take in the
film like that made it into the movie. Oh yeah, okay.
And two, you could totally tell you guys are film
nerds versus like sex freaks, because like risky business, like
if someone's house was empty, like party, but you guys
said let's make a movie.

Speaker 6 (48:54):
You guys were film nerds, which is great, kudos to that.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
Exactly, a couple of guys fill the house to themselves,
time to make a movie, right.

Speaker 5 (49:02):
Right, That's the first thing that comes to my mind.

Speaker 4 (49:06):
It's funny too, because that same guy his grandparents let
us use their beach house.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
This is I'm sorry, I'm sorry to keep holding these.

Speaker 6 (49:14):
Stories, but this is great. This is great.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
He said, Hey, my great parents let us go, let
us use their beach house. So you know, of course, hey,
let's let's bring down some beer. Let's bring down some stuff. Well,
he when we get there, he says, oh, there's only
one rule, and and I said what's that? He goes,
there can be no girls here, and I and I said,
why is that? He goes, Well, if if somebody were
to come in, he goes, like from my family, he goes.

(49:37):
And then if they told my grandparents they would get
upset because they're very old fashioned and and this and that.
So I said, well we can, we can make another
movie while we're in here, and he stared daggers into
me and he goes, he goes, I'd rather just have.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
A party nice.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor her.
And now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (50:07):
Because this guy was I think a little burned out
of movie the first one. But uh, but no, it
was just hilarious and uh and that that was We
ended up just actually driving to a c anyway because
he's right by he was, so we ended up I
ended up winning like two hundred bucks at a slot
machine that night. But but that's all. But to get

(50:30):
back to your your actual filmography, and your latest film
is actually droughout the August the eighth, So if you could,
you know, could you just give us a you know,
a sort of a summary of the film, and give
us a log line, and and you know, just a
little more, any more information you give us about the film.

Speaker 5 (50:46):
Yeah, So among us is it's a supernatural thriller, horror thriller.
It's about two it's a married couple of two characters. Mainly,
it's a very character driven story about My original idea
was to st the movie off with people just leaving
the house already, because with most horror movies, you always
ask if the house is haunted, why don't you just leave?

(51:07):
So this one we already address it. They leave the
house and they get into a car accident, the husband
gets paralyzed, and we flash forward a few months and
they're struggling with their marriage now that they're living in
an isolated area, hoping they've escaped whatever was haunting them.

Speaker 6 (51:21):
They've lost their child.

Speaker 5 (51:23):
They're a broken family, and the story is really about
trying to move on and trying to still stay together
and still love each other amongst all this tragedy, and
there's a haunting still. So it's something where I try
to make something a little bit different but still play
with a lot of stuff where there's you know, some
scares and some suspense, but there's definitely more there, and

(51:45):
I don't want to talk about the other, you know,
elements that I put in there other than that I
love to I channeled Brian to Palma, Little John Carpenter.
But also I had films when I was writing and
making it that I showed the actor and my DP
that I wanted to kind of feel in term, I
wanted our film to feel like in terms of the tones,
so it'd be like eyes White shut that marriage, you know,

(52:08):
think about that marriage that they had, The Gray with
Leam Nice and Jel Carnahan's The Gray, Uh, three Colors
Blue was another one, Insidious, the Descent, Rust and Bone.
So these were the ones that I kind of told
people like, these are the films that show people that
are struggling and you really care for them. And that's
the kind of movie that I really wanted to make.

Speaker 4 (52:29):
Yeah, and I love those those movies by the way
that you mentioned, because because those movies, you know, are
those sort of movies where it's more about the character
and more about you know, using the location you have rather.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
Than again exactly, rather than again exactly.

Speaker 6 (52:41):
I'm sorry, Gary, Oh no, I just said, yeah, I'm
agreeing with you.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
Sorry I thought I kept cutting you off. I'm sorry
about that. No, so because sometimes you know, actually cut
people off. I'm sorry about that, but I always like, whoop. Sorry,
I didn't mean to step on your line. But but
what happens is, you know, movies like that are really cool.
What I mean, like The Gray for instance, I remember
the selling point for me was they had a production

(53:06):
still or maybe it was maybe it was just a
quick video and Liam Neeson had those broken mini bottles
on his hands, ready to fight those wolves, and I went, well,
this movie is gonna be great. I mean, how can
you go wrong about that?

Speaker 5 (53:19):
Right?

Speaker 6 (53:20):
Right?

Speaker 5 (53:21):
It's yeah, that movie is amazing. I was one of
my favorite movies that year. I mean, the performances and again,
just the kind of movies that I love is like
you really get to know the characters to care about them,
and then the shit goes down, you know.

Speaker 6 (53:35):
And that's something I analyzed.

Speaker 5 (53:37):
And this is how we're talking about scripts, Like I
didn't analyze the script of the Exorcists, but I watched
it and I remember it was about forty minutes into
the running time before anything really you know, spooky happened.
So it's forty minutes of character development. And I was
lucky enough to talk to William Freakinet. He did a
book signing, and this was in Brooklyn. We just had

(53:57):
watched Sorcerer and he had an autobiography out and after
the screening I got gone to sign it and I
just said, hey, mister, I said Billy.

Speaker 6 (54:05):
No, I didn't say Billy. I said, mister freaking.

Speaker 5 (54:08):
What advice do you have for me if I'm going
to go shoot a horror movie in a few a
few weeks actually, And do you have any advice? Just
simple advice? And he just said, no bullshit scares, make
us care, and that's exactly what I aim to do.

Speaker 4 (54:25):
So and using that advice, that's when he says, no
bullshit scares. Using that advice, does he mean like none
of the sort of stuff where like, you know, a
scare happens or or and it's like turns out to
just be a false Uh you.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
Know what I mean? Like the person sort of looks
behind the curtain and there's nothing there. And then I.

Speaker 5 (54:45):
Remember, because the Exorcist had a moment when you know,
the mother goes up to the attic and there's a
big candle and then a flame and she's scared because
the caretaker's up there.

Speaker 6 (54:53):
So that's like the genuine thing because that happened.

Speaker 5 (54:55):
I think it's the one where the hand comes off
and touches you, you know, when they're like, I'm trying
to think of what movies that did, but like a
character's looking around a spooky house and then a hair
I mean, a hand comes from off frame and then
touches the shoulder and then the music is jacked by
like you know, ten times louder now and just just
to give you that scare versus like a scare that's earned,

(55:18):
you know.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
Yes, And there's actually a really good, uh sort of
movie school if you will, about that where if you
look a up the First Halloween where Donald Pleasants is
sitting outside Michael Myers's house and those kids go up
there and they're like, hey, knock on the door, and
Donald's Pleasants as doctor Loomis goes, hey, Mike, you know,
get out of here, your motherfucker your little shit. Yeah,
and the kids freak out and they run away. Well,

(55:41):
Donald Pleasants all proud of himself. Well, the sheriff grabs
his shoulder real quick. But there's no music whatsoever.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
There's none.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
It's just it's just Loomis going, Oh my god, Jesus,
you could be Michael Myers, you know, And it's just
that that right there. And I realized I'd never even
thought of it, and so I watched it again. I'm like, man,
there is no musical cue there, and it's brilliant. It's
almost like that guy John Carpenter knows what he's doing.

Speaker 6 (56:02):
Yeah, I think.

Speaker 5 (56:03):
He might have something. He might go places. No, but like, yeah,
Halloween is an amazing felm. And I think there's another
scene where Jamie Lee Curtis. Lorie is walking in the
daytime and she's walking home from school and I think
she's staring at the house. And as she's staring at
the house, she bumps into somebody and again I don't
believe there's like a music cue there, but it starts

(56:25):
the shit out of you.

Speaker 6 (56:26):
And it's exactly, you know the point.

Speaker 5 (56:28):
Like, so we have something in my movie where I
totally didn't purposely try to make it a jump scare,
but there's a moment like some character says something to
someone who's back is turned and I didn't put in
a cue. I didn't put in like a dude to
try to like just make people jump, because it's not earned.
That's like the jolt, that's like a startling moment versus
like a truly truly terrifying moment where you're startled because

(56:51):
it's actually happening to that character in that scene, not
because the score is making it happen.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah, because I think that. And that's the
the main problem I have a lot of modern horror
movies too, is is there's no real there's no real
idea of there's a real core, you know what I mean.
It's it just feels like it's sort of put together,
you know what I mean. And it's just I actually
it's the problem. I have a lot of movies lately.
But but I digress. I mean, I trust me. I

(57:17):
watched so many movies, Gary and I have a twenty
minute role. If you can't droll me in with the
first twenty minutes, I turn it off. You know, I'm
done with that. But I just feel sometimes that there's
not a lot of there's there's a there's too much money,
not a create not enough creativity, or maybe there's there's
too much focus on the output and enough on the input, you.

Speaker 5 (57:38):
Know, m yeah, I mean, thankfully there's a resurgence of
solid horror movies lately, but like you said, I mean
for every solid horror movie, there's like ten that copy
it or copied the one that came before it that
was a hit, and they don't really know what they're doing.

Speaker 6 (57:56):
They're just trying to copy the formula.

Speaker 5 (57:57):
And that's that's when it just becomes stale or you
know something where you're like this, this, this has no
this had no reason to be made except for money
because obviously, like people really didn't care about it.

Speaker 4 (58:09):
But so, you know, you with your new movie among
Us coming out on August the eighth, you know where
that can people view that at?

Speaker 5 (58:17):
It is actually available on every major cable provider, which
is amazing. This is my first time my film is
going to be this wide to basically be on demand.
So if you're at home on August eighth, you can
just turn on your cable provider and among Us will
be there. You can also get it on iTunes, Amazon, Google, YouTube,
like all those kind of streaming kind of services view

(58:38):
d services you can get and it also is available
on DVD and Blu Ray on Amazon dot Com, and
the DVD and Blu Ray have some bonus features, so
it has a deleted scene, alternate ending, and some bloopers
so you get some fun stuff that way.

Speaker 6 (58:52):
I love physical media. I still collect physical media.

Speaker 5 (58:55):
I know I'm old school, but I wanted to make
sure our distributors, Gravitas put some bonus features on if
they're going to put out physical meaning, I think you
got to put something not.

Speaker 6 (59:04):
You can't put out bare bone stuff.

Speaker 5 (59:06):
You got to put something fun for people to be
able to want to collect it.

Speaker 4 (59:09):
Yeah, I mean, Gravitas is awesome, by the way. I mean,
congratulations on everything, Gary, I mean, you know, just just
for meeting you a few years ago, I mean, you
have just exploded it. I'm like, man, he's Twitter verified,
he's got a wiki page.

Speaker 5 (59:21):
I mean, man, well, yeah, I mean if that's if
that's success, then sure I'll take it. But you know, obviously,
for me, the funniest thing is like, if there's what
you're never satisfied where you're at, because man, ten years ago,
I would have loved to be here now where I'm
sitting being like, man, okay, a film with distribution. It's

(59:43):
awesome because you know, when I first started, the first
two or two films I made when in terms of
distribution didn't get picked up. And so now I'm like,
I have distribution.

Speaker 6 (59:54):
This is great.

Speaker 5 (59:54):
They actually gave me a sweet deal. We're making money.
This is awesome. But now obviously I want want something bigger.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,

Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
I want something a little bit more, and that's the
thing that drives me to keep going.

Speaker 6 (01:00:15):
So thank you again.

Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
I didn't I totally don't mean like not to sound
like I that I'm not very appreciative. Like, I totally
love the fact of where I'm at, but it's just
there's so much more to do and so much things
to create that I just want so much more, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
Oh yeah, I completely understand, Gary, true, Trust, I completely understand.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
You know, there's nothing wrong against universal theme. There's nothing
wrong with want of a better life for yourself.

Speaker 6 (01:00:42):
Right, that's true, man, that's very true.

Speaker 5 (01:00:46):
But yeah, the funniest thing is that I was shocked
about the Wikipedia page. I have no clue who created it.
I was really shocked about that piece. I mean, I
still don't know. Sometimes I see it being updated and
I'm like, wow, I don't know. I don't know who
was doing this. This is funny.

Speaker 6 (01:01:01):
See, I expect ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:01:03):
I was gonna say, see, you're you've got this fan
base you've been developing and and and they're doing it,
you know, and uh they're they're they're holding the Gary
King or they could think you're that guy from that
World's End with That's so I'm page.

Speaker 6 (01:01:15):
That's the page.

Speaker 5 (01:01:16):
I think that's the page they're actually they thought they
were doing and then it turned out to be me.

Speaker 6 (01:01:20):
Yeah, that's that's pretty much.

Speaker 4 (01:01:22):
When I saw that movie, I was like, Oh, Gary King,
I know that guy.

Speaker 5 (01:01:26):
That was part of the fun of that movie because uh,
my friends said when they were watching they would giggle
every time. Not I mean the movie's funny, but they're
like it was the extra funny factor because they'd be
like Gary King and it's like they just think of
me it started giggling.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Yeah, it's uh again, that that's all.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
I got another layer of enjoyment out of that movie too,
just because by the way, Gary. Speaking of which, uh,
some Twitter questions came in do you have a few
minutes just to answer maybe one or two questions. I yes,
So this question came in. I'm sorry, let me go
grab my phone. I know this is not good for
an audio podcast. As I grabbed my phone, I know

(01:02:04):
everyone's like, oh right. So this one came in and
it said, I demand to know what Carrie's favorite records
are to write to? All caps. This is the most
important question. So Gary, Gary, what are your favorite records
to write to?

Speaker 6 (01:02:21):
Jesus Man? Oh god.

Speaker 5 (01:02:26):
So yeah, it's it definitely varies from script to script.

Speaker 6 (01:02:30):
Obviously.

Speaker 5 (01:02:31):
When you know you're writing a certain genre, you kind
of pick and make create a playlist for your stuff.
So I actually did a music drama that's done and
we're in development almost, you know, hoping to shoot soon.
It's being shopped around. It's kind of a road trip
movie about a singer songwriter. So I pulled up Man,

(01:02:51):
I made a playlist of these random people, you know,
the beauty of Spotify. And I'm not being sponsored by
Spotify here, but I mean I can pull up the
playlist right now, since sitting in my computer, I can
just I'll name a few artists from that playlist that
I that I had.

Speaker 6 (01:03:07):
So you went to your phone. I'm going to my laptop.
Let's see here.

Speaker 4 (01:03:10):
By the way, I actually just submitted to have this
podcast on Spotify. So if you, if you are endorsed
by them, Gary, please put in a good word for us.

Speaker 6 (01:03:19):
Right, Okay, So I had.

Speaker 5 (01:03:23):
Let's see, so I had some Johnny Cash, Joni Mitchell,
Marvin Gaye, Beach Boys, let's see, Iggy Pop, Ario Speedwagon,
Joe Cocker, The The Who, Future Islands. Well, and let's
tell this this reader, I'm not this reader, this listener.
I will share my playlist with you. If he tweets me,

(01:03:46):
I can. I can always send this off to him,
like I can make it public. But not.

Speaker 6 (01:03:49):
But yeah, no, it's it was. It's definitely like it's
a it's a road trip movie.

Speaker 5 (01:03:52):
It's it's a singer songwriter and she meets a guy
who plays like the blues, and so it's all these
different styles that are going through and she's remembering her
father had passed away and he loved, you know, older
kind of music like the Beach Boys and stuff. So
it's like a mishmash of all these types of musical styles.
So it celebrates various types of artists and genres as

(01:04:12):
as this movie goes along. So I'm really happy about
it and I can't wait to make it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:16):
The guy did actually tweet both of us, so it's
Dave muhalland so.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
You can see you'll see the sweet at.

Speaker 6 (01:04:22):
Your timeline, right nice?

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
Okay, So, and the second question that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
Came in Gary was was I'm sorry I put my
phone down, but I know the gist of it was
basically was basically, you know, where if if you could
give any advice for a person to start making a film,
where would it be.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
What would it be? I'm sorry.

Speaker 6 (01:04:42):
And the first time, first time ever, it's like.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
A first time filmmaker.

Speaker 6 (01:04:48):
I would It's funny because I remember.

Speaker 5 (01:04:50):
So there's piece of advice that Allman says is basically,
don't take any advice. And he's a maverick and he's
one of those guys who didn't take any advice and
you just is his own thing. So that's that's, you know,
one thing that you can say. What the other one
is for me is just not to give up. Definitely
see it through to the end, because once you do,
you'll either know if you love it and if you're bitten.
By the bug to want to make more, or if

(01:05:12):
you've had enough and think, okay, I did that and
I'm going to try something else now.

Speaker 6 (01:05:16):
Because filmmaking is not easy.

Speaker 5 (01:05:18):
There's a lot of work into it, a lot of
different people that come into play. I was very fortunate
to meet people early on in my career that believed
in me and wanted to work with me for very
little money. And I know the do Plos brothers say
this too, where they say, you know, if you're making
a movie and people you're paying people one hundred a
day just to be there, but you know others are

(01:05:40):
asking for more. Those aren't the people you want to
work with. And you're starting out because you want people
there for you for the story, not from the money.
Because at that stage, at that level, everyone's there trying
to make something great, trying to elevate their careers. So
it's something Just do it, do it for the love,
and then do it again.

Speaker 3 (01:05:59):
And that is excellent advice.

Speaker 4 (01:06:01):
Gary, don't take any advice, no, but right.

Speaker 5 (01:06:04):
So whatever I just said, just do it and then
just go do what go do what you want.

Speaker 4 (01:06:09):
Yeah, and seriously and getting together and this is not
to not to keep you for too long. I'm sorry, Gary,
I know we're going over, but I just wanted to
mention one thing that I've been listening. I listened to
a lot of podcasts on my drive to and from work,
and I also listened to a lot of books.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
On audible, uh via audible.

Speaker 4 (01:06:25):
And one thing I've noticed is, you know, building that mastermine,
building a crew around you, you know what I mean
of people who are not only supportive, but also we're
striving to make you better and also bring you opportunities
and stuff like that, and and uh and it's and
it's a mutual beneficial thing. You know, it's not just
all them giving to you. But I think just you know, uh,

(01:06:47):
building that finding those people is like a skilling of itself,
you know what I mean, like finding a producer who
just would work with you, almost like finding like your
your Frank Marshall, or finding like your Lawrence Bender, something
like that, you know what I mean. And people have
asked me to because you know I do so like

(01:07:08):
I'm I'm okay, this is the only time where I'm
gonna get a little cocky.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
Gary. I'm not a very cocky guy. I am.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
Actually I'm not gonna just just make stuff up. I'm
actually very good at networking and producing stuff. I I
that is the only time I've ever gonna I've realized
I'm It's just like a natural thing for me to do.
And I'm always meeting new people and stuff like that,
and that.

Speaker 5 (01:07:28):
That's gonna be your sound bite to promote this show,
by the way, You're just gonna use that piece there.

Speaker 4 (01:07:33):
Like like who is this guy again? Why do I
Why am I listening to this show? But that that's
actually where I'm really good at. And I and honestly,
when I when I've been able, when I've been asked
to do other people's movies, I'm always like, I don't
want to fucking do that. I don't want to make
it anybody else's movie. I want to make my own movies,
you know. And it's just kind of you kind of
wonder where to draw that line though, because that's what

(01:07:54):
I've been wondering in the in the in the the
past couple of years, because I've I've turned down so
many movies have an offered me come on as a
producer because I'm just like, well, there's no money, it's
just well, you know what i mean.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
And it's probably good for both of us.

Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
I turn it down because you know what I mean,
Like I was just looking for money from this one
project or I might you know what I mean, And
it's not what I really want to do, So my
heart's not into it, you know what I mean. So
I think it's good for everybody if if me saying no.

Speaker 5 (01:08:21):
Yeah, no, I mean, a great producer is hard to find.
I produced myself out of necessity, not because I love it,
but finding a producer that loves it is rare, and
if they're good at it, you got.

Speaker 6 (01:08:33):
To hold on to them.

Speaker 5 (01:08:34):
And that's why I'm sure, Like you said, Lawrence Bender
work with Tarantino for like three or four films, and
all these other people, if they partner up, they partner
up for a very very long time. And it's something
my wife does very well, and she does for my
films only because like you, you know, it's like I
believe in these projects. I don't want to be hired
to do something just to do it. So it's something

(01:08:55):
where it's such a hard skill and it's such a
it's not only hard, but it's something it's very delicate.
Like you said, you have to be very good at
what you do to get things done right away. And
it's it's again if I might be giving you a
call later about producing, but now I'm just kidding you. Definitely.

(01:09:17):
The cool thing is as a filmmaker for yourself too,
you know what it takes to produce something, so as
you're writing it or as you're directing it, you can
wear both hats to know what you can demand of
the crew or of yourself based on what you have
with the with the project.

Speaker 6 (01:09:34):
And if that's a.

Speaker 5 (01:09:35):
Really great skill, like that's what I'm proud of as
a director, having produced, I know when to ask for
things and when not to ask for things based on
what's going on.

Speaker 6 (01:09:44):
And the producers really, you know, appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
Anytime you want to call me Gary to talk about producing,
let's do it, man.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
That's it.

Speaker 5 (01:09:54):
All right, sounds good.

Speaker 4 (01:09:55):
I was just telling the story the other day about
how I got a bunch of different locations for free,
and people were like, how the hell did you do that?

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
And I said, well, it's a funny story.

Speaker 4 (01:10:14):
So but but you know, it's just you know, I've
been doing a lot of writing for the past couple
of years, and I hope to actually enter some scripts
into slam Dance this year, you know, just to sort
of get that juice back. And that's when the main
reason I created this podcast was not only just to
do something creative, but I get to meet all some
people and I mean it's just been all positives you

(01:10:36):
know about this podcast, and it's just you know, it's
it's just awesome, man, and Gary, I just want to
say thank you so much for coming on, and uh,
before we go, I just want to have one more question,
that is where can people find you out online?

Speaker 6 (01:10:49):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 5 (01:10:50):
First of all, you know, this conversation went really really quickly,
so I enjoyed myself a lot, and they can find
me at the best place is g r king dot com.
It's g r k I n G dot com. I
believe there's links to my Facebook, to my Twitter there,
and there's information to all my films where you can
find them. So New York Lately, What's up, Lovely? And

(01:11:11):
how do you write a Joe Sherman song? You can
see a little bit of information about them, as well
as links to Amazon Prime where you can watch them
for free and you can find out information about, among us,
my latest horror movie coming out, where I would love
for you guys to check out and appreciate the support.

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
Gary, I want to say thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:11:28):
You have to add one link to X the project
the working title also just X handwritten X.

Speaker 4 (01:11:35):
And yeah, by the way, was X Was it a
VHS tape or was it a DV day?

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
I'm hooked. That's it. Let let's hitch this tomorrow.

Speaker 6 (01:11:45):
Right, I'll make some calls, we'll get to the meeting.

Speaker 4 (01:11:47):
Seriously, let's do it, man, Let's do it. Yeah, what's
stopping this?

Speaker 5 (01:11:52):
Nice?

Speaker 6 (01:11:53):
Nice?

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Gary R.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
King. I want to say thank you so much for
coming on.

Speaker 5 (01:11:56):
Buddy, Dave, Dave b Thank you sir, and hope to
come back again sometime and definitely we'll be talking soon too.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot
TV Forward slash for thirty three. Thank you so much
for listening to guys. As always, keep on writing, no
matter what, I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
dot tv.

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