BPS 435: Building Films from Scratch_Mastering Microbudget Movie-Making with Evan Kidd

Evan Kidd is a passionate indie filmmaker who believes great stories don’t need big budgets—just big heart. In this episode, he shares how he created his feature film Son of Clowns using the resources he already had: friends, favors, and faith in the process. With a deep respect for collaboration, Evan emphasizes the importance of building a reliable team, staying grounded, and keeping ego out of the equation. His filmmaking philosophy leans heavily on authenticity, transparency, and making the most of real-world environments, often embracing the beautiful chaos that unfolds on set. Throughout the conversation, Evan offers wisdom for creatives struggling with fear and perfectionism. He encourages filmmakers to stop waiting for ideal circumstances and start where they are, even if that means running sound themselves or rewriting scenes to fit accessible locations. “Filmmaking is just a big game of improvisation,” he says, reminding us that adaptability and passion are more powerful than money. His journey is a heartfelt lesson in making art that matters—without asking permission.


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to
ifahpodcastnetwork dot com.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four thirty five.
Your dream doesn't have an expiration date, Take a deep
breath and try again. KT Whitten broadcasting from a dark,
windowless room in Hollywood.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
When we really should be working on that next draft.
It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
screenplay bulletproof.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.

Speaker 4 (00:50):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
on the kind of project you are in the goals
of the project you are, so we actually break it
down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market, and
studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a
reader that's used to reading temp pole movies when your
movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand

(01:12):
dollars and we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof
script coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA,
wm E, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist,
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or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over
to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host

(01:37):
Dave Bullets.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Our next guest. We talk a lot about team building
and how do you find those reliable people, how do
you find people that you know you can collaborate with,
you know, And we also talk a lot about resource
based film making, you know, aka the Rodriguez List, because
you shouldn't make no if you're going to make a film.
I'm not talking about a student film. If you're going
to make a film nowadays, and you know you don't

(02:01):
have a bunch of money in the bank, you know,
you're not gonna be able to find some VC who's
just gonna, you know, money, drop a million dollars in
your bank account. What you should do is, you know,
use what resources you have to make a film. Don't
make a colossal space movie or some action movie like
a Lah John Wu, it's just gonna end up blowing

(02:23):
up in your face. And I and take it from
personal experience, it has blown up in my face before
when I've tried to just shoot for the moon and
you end up with a with a half done movie
that the effects don't look good enough. You know, a
movie that comes to mind is Primer. If you've ever
seen Primer, you know, it's a it's a whole movie
about time travel and the guy shot at Shane Kruz

(02:45):
shot it for like seven thousand dollars, and it's it's
very well done. It's a very cerebral movie. But it
just shows what you can do with the right resources
and the right script. But speak of the right resources
and the right script. You know, my next guest, we're
gonna be talking about just that. We're gonna be talking
about all of this stuff. And it is a phenomenal
phenomenal for conversation with guests. Evan Kid, Hey, Evan, thanks

(03:09):
off coming on the show.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
Hey, thanks for having me Man, Hey.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
My pleasure. Evan. You know, it's a question I always
ask everybody. It's a question I I just always begin
every interview with and that question is Evan, what got
you started in the film industry.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
I think just a love of the craft of cinema.
You know, It's it's that simple for me, as you know,
the other filmmakers have said this before, but you know,
I'm really no different. Like I grew up around it.
We watched a lot of movies in my house growing up,
and it was kind of the default. If something wasn't
going on, you know, parents would put on a movie,

(03:43):
we'd watch it, and I just kind of grew up
in that culture. You know. I ended up stealing my
dad's VHS camera a lot of times when I was
like three and four years old, and I would you
know shoot stuff around the house and the pets and
you know, stuff around the neighborhood. So it kind of
just grew really naturally. And then when I went, you
know into high school, there was like this little uh,
you know, film in the morning announcements class, which was

(04:06):
really cut and dry, but gave you access to you know,
tripods and editing software and stuff like that. So I
would kind of use that after hours and do what
I wanted, and I thought that was cool. And then
that was around the time YouTube is really taking off.
And so you know, I think all those things kind
of gelled together to propel me into you know, pursuing
it once I got to college and kind of from
there it's been history. So it's you know, been pretty natural.

(04:28):
But I think it's also been a direct correlation to how,
you know, over the years, technology has really allowed more
people into the film business. You know, I've never had
a huge inkling to just go and direct you know,
Avengers five or whatever. For me, it's always just been
about telling a compelling story with you know, resources around me,
whether that be you know, cast and crew or just

(04:48):
you know the technology that you know, so many of
us have access to.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, you know, very true. And you know I remember
those big VHS cameras.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
See see you and I are kind of sort of
around the same age, I I mean, but you know,
and sometimes some of my guests are a little bit
older than I am, so you know, they didn't have that,
They had this like the Super Ring. Hey, that's what
they remember when they were a kid, you know. And
and guys like us, we had the you know those
big old it looks like a big boom box you
put on your shoulder. You couldn't use it for more
than five minutes or you know, you'd kill your back

(05:17):
and your neck, and you know, it looked like a
bazooka and uh, you know, and then now they went
to many DV but yeah, you know, I remember when
YouTube first was taking off in like two thousand and four,
two thousand and five. Yeah, and I remember just being
blown away. And I remember, you know, people were just
putting up different stuff and it was still on the
you know, nobody really talked about it until a few
years later, and then all of a sudden, it was

(05:38):
like this freaking juggernaut exactly.

Speaker 4 (05:39):
I mean, I remember when it first, you know, launched off.
I was like, we can put online video on the Internet.
And you know, at that time, my parents believe it
not still a dial up, so that concept was in
like two thousand and four, super foreign to me. Uh
And so you know, I would only watch YouTube literally
at school, and we weren't even supposed to do that.
So you know, for me, it was like technology was
just slowly emerging out of the shell. And then, you know,

(06:01):
give it a few months, you know, most everyone including
my family, got you know, DSL and faster internet, and
everything kind of started catching up to what you could do.
And for me that was extremely exciting. And I remember
thinking I could just make a movie and put it
on YouTube, like, holy shit, that's crazy, like and you know,
for me that didn't even seem within the realm of possibility.

(06:22):
But you know, like I was saying, given a little
bit of technology, I think that's half the reason I'm
able to do what I do and so many others.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah, totally agree. And you know, I actually want to
get into that too, about you know, making your film
Son of Clowns and you know, working with all the
resources you have around you. But I wanted to ask
really quickly, did you go to a film school?

Speaker 4 (06:40):
I did. Yeah, I went to East Carolina University a
couple of years ago. I graduated from that in Greenville,
North Carolina. And it was a great program. I really
enjoyed it definitely taught me a lot. I think it
was a lot more of a technical program in terms
of how to operate a camera, cut your own stuff
like that than it was, you know, truly trying to
craft you know, screenplays. That there was screenwriting classes, but

(07:01):
I kind of think it geared more to that. So
I did a lot of learning on my own in
terms of you know, the story structure and all that. Like,
it was definitely there, but I think if you really
really wanted to get the full you know, breadth of it,
I would talk to my professors and they'd be like,
you know, here's this resource. You got to look at
it on your own hours just because it wasn't built
into every part of the curriculum, but I would definitely
recommend it. It was a great program and really cut my

(07:22):
teeth there for sure. You know, met a lot of
the people who would end up helping me make Son
of Clowns and other films like that. But yeah, I
definitely think that is you know important, and you know,
at the very least, it gave me the know how
because I also do a lot of documentary work and
so a lot of designs in those situations, I don't
have as big of a crew as I would, you know,
on my narrative stuff, and like you know, shooting something

(07:44):
last last month and I was literally the only crew member,
and it was kind of by design, Like if I
really dug around, I could have you know, probably got
a camera operator or sound designer stuff like that, but
it was just such a you know, sporadic opportunity. I
didn't have time, and so in those occasions, I'm really
glad I went to film school because otherwise I don't
know if I'd know how to operate a camera, run sound,

(08:07):
you know, kind of do all those technical things.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
So yeah, you know, that's a question I usually ask.
You know, certain people have come on and they said, Dave,
film school is a waste of time. Some people have
come on and said, hey, film school was phenomenal to me,
and you know, and it's it's something I always go
back to because you know, our experience is your perception
equals reality, and you know, if your perception of if
something is you know, skewed or something is perception, if

(08:30):
something is hey listen, my experience was terrible, you know,
and my perception of it is it was totally worthless,
you know it.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
You know, So I just ask.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
People to be honest, you know what I mean, and
if and and I always like hearing people's different experiences.
I know, my listeners like hearing different people's experiences about
this stuff because I think it's that's critical, you know
what I mean. And it's sort of something you've touched
on with what you just said is also something critical,
and that is building a team. And I always ask people,
you know, how did you build your team? You know,
where does your where did you guys meet? Uh, you know,
and and you met your whole team through film school?

Speaker 4 (09:01):
Yeah, most of them. I did meet a lot of them,
a couple of folks after the fact, but you know,
I think it was that network that really makes film
school and valuable. You know, I've heard a lot of
people say you don't need film school. I've heard a
lot of people say, oh, yeah, you got to do it,
or else you're screwed. I kind of fall in the
middle of the road thinking, you know, obviously I'm a
product of a film school and I went to one.

(09:21):
But at the same time, it was a film school
that I think, really, you know, it kind of forced
me to do a lot of outside learning outside of
the program, So I think it kind of good, got
a good breadth of you know, a lot of different options,
you know, Like I said, I there's this story I
always tell I made this documentary called spaz Out a
couple of years ago, and the project was, you know,
out of this documentary class I was taking an undergrad

(09:43):
and basically you had to make this ten minute documentary
over the course of about two months, and it was
the story, you know I was telling was about this
underground punk groy music scene and there was you know,
doing shows out of this warehouse. It was super legal,
but there was a lot of you know, heart in
the you know, people trying to make music happen.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
And to me, it felt like a bigger story. So I,
you know, wanted to make something longer. And we're talking
to my professor and he was like, why do you
want to make it a bigger story? And I was like,
just because I feel like that's the best way to
tell it. And he was like, if that's the reason,
then go for it. And you know, I think that
has stayed with me because a lot of times I
want to make projects that maybe aren't originally thought of

(10:31):
or aren't originally you know in the you know, quote
unquote guidelines of something. And I think film school is
a you know, great launching pad. So you know, I
guess I got a little off track, but I would say,
you know, coming back around, you know, I think it
really depends for each person. Like if you are going
to go into extreme debt and you know, you know,
it might kind of mess up your trajectory for the

(10:51):
next couple of years. And you're pretty self taught, you
watch YouTube videos and stuff like that, you may not
need that kind of technical guidance. But you know, again,
and if you want the resources and the crew base
and the you know, internships and stuff like that, you're
not going to get that through YouTube tutorials. So I
think it really is kind of something each person needs
to weigh individually.

Speaker 3 (11:11):
Yeah, that's that's very true. A friend of mine, you know,
he went to UH I think he went to n
YU and you know, Morton Scrissese comes in to talk
to a class like once a semester or whatever, and
you know, when he walked in, he was like, holy shit,
Mortin Scissegy just walked in the right and and was like, Hey,
everybody want to talk about film And it's like, who's
gonna Who's gonna say no? First off? And you know

(11:32):
what I mean, but it's uh, but it's that, you know,
that's the benefit he got from going to n YU
or you know, and if you go to USC I
think Steven Spielberg comes in like once a semester as well.

Speaker 4 (11:41):
Yeah, and I mean that's invaluable. I mean, if you're
able to get that, how do you pass it up?
Like you said?

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Yeah, and but you know it's you know that. That's
what we want to talk about too, is you're building
your team, you know, and using those resources around you
to actually make your film. And I want to ask
you about building your team. So you know, Evan, when
you were building your team, I don't maybe it did,
maybe you didn't, But I don't know if anybody really
goes out with that mindset of, Hey, you know what
I'm going to go today, look for a team that

(12:07):
I could put together. I think it sort of happens naturally.
It happens organically, and eventually, you know, something clicks in
your mind where you go, hey, I could work with
this person as a producer, you know what I mean?
And I think you know, that's how people sort of
build teams, as I found doing this podcast and even
my own experiences in making stuff. So you know, what
are some of the qualities Evan, that you find with

(12:28):
your team that that when you were sort of putting
them together, when when you you know, May May May
put that team together to make a Son of Clowns.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
Your team is your backbone, and you are pretty much
as made as your team is made, I guess I
would say. And so you know, it's like a sports team.
You're the coach, but you want to pick your players.
And when you're making something like the way we made
my feature film Son of Clowns, for example, you know,
that was the biggest crew I've ever you know, had

(12:57):
the opportunity to work with up to this point. And
you know, certain days were better than others. You know,
certain days we'd have very small crew, like six seven people.
Other days we'd have a bigger crew, a lot of pas,
you know, probably fifteen twenty. And so most everyone in
that crew worked for free. No one made money. And
that's the thing that's tricky, because when you're in micro

(13:19):
budget cinema, like, no one cares. Before I made the film,
no one cared if I made Some of Clowns. I
was the only person that cared, you know, the actors
and the crew, but no one else cares. And that's
the kind of rough truth that you need to get around,
is that you know, when you're making your micro budget,
no one cares. And once you kind of accept that
and once you say, okay, people will care once we

(13:40):
make it. But like, up until this point, you don't
have investors. You're really bankrolling on your own credit card,
which is what I did. Basically, my mentality was fine
people who want to a work because at that time
the North Carolina film incentives just crashed because of some
stupid politics and so a lot of people were out
of jobs and a lot of people we're kind of
sitting around anyway. So I was like, well, instead of

(14:02):
sitting around, let's all do something. You know. I took
a hit from that, and a lot of other people
did because by day I do a lot of crew work,
you know, ac stuff like that, and so you know,
for me, it was kind of a situation where let's
make the best out of, you know, something that sucks.
And then you know, I would say on the second thing,
when you find crew that are passionate, grab those people

(14:23):
because those are the people you want with you on
the battlefield, so to speak. Those people will you know,
stay the extra hour, Those people won't mind if you
do lunch an hour or two late. You know, those
people really just want to get your story. And uh,
I'm a big believer in you know, quote unquote working
for free. Yeah, no one got paid. I definitely didn't
get paid. I went to the Red but you know,

(14:44):
it was my movie, so I totally understand that. But
every other aspect of this production, I said, let me
not make it so it costs people money. Okay, So
let me fill up the gas tanks, let me get
all their meals covered, you know, let me give them
something great for their real Let me actually publicize this film,
because I think the thing that happens and why a
lot of people are hesitant to do free work is

(15:06):
because they've been burned in the past. And I've had
it happen to me when you you know, work on
something for free. I think a lot of times there's
this kind of you know, hesitant notion, which I totally understand.
Like I do a lot of crew work for a living.
That's how I make a lot of my money. And
for me, like, I will work on a free project,
but I have to know where it's going. Will it

(15:27):
be sent out to festivals? Because the last thing anyone
wants is to work on a film and just have
it get thrown up on YouTube, get about one hundred
videos and then no one cares. You know, people want
to know they're part of a project that's going to
at least try to go somewhere. Like everyone knows it's
not guaranteed, but at the very end of the day,
there has to be some effort being made. So I
tried to be as transparent about that possible with like,
you know, the whole cast and crew. You know, I

(15:49):
sent them emails for months and months after the fact.
You know, we got into this film festival. We're going
to submit here, you know, stuff like that, you know,
give everyone their footage promptly so they can put it
on a reel that you know, that kind of thing.
Just just be a decent person. You know, if you
can't pay people, try to, you know, make all the
rest of the filmmakers who don't have a lot of
money look good.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, and you know that That's something I agree with too,
is I think people have been burned in the past
by free work and it's sort of you know, maybe
they've worked for free for you know, a person and
it's never been reciprocating, so they kind of say, you know,
I I you know, now I'm in the hole now,
so to speak. And you know, I got into a
friend of mine and actually teaches you know, film at
a high school, and he and I had gotten this
whole thing before because we were talking about free work

(16:34):
and you know, some people say do it, some people
say don't do it, and basically we all The thing
that we have a problem with was when I was
making my student front films, I said, you know, I
need some help, and some people offer to work for free. Well,
they would come on and then they would sort of
act like they don't need to be professional or act
like they need to actually do their job the right way,

(16:55):
because hey, you're not paying me anything, so what the
hell's the difference.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yeah, And I think that's the reason a lot of
these people have bad experiences is because there's a lack
of professionality on some free sets. I'm not going to
say all, but you know, the way I coordinated my set,
I would say, and a lot of people told me
it ran very professionally, and a lot of people said
they were shocked. You know, both you know day players
who just had you know, one scene they were just

(17:20):
coming and out, and you know people who are there
for the long haul too. A lot of people said that,
and you know, I guess I could take it as
a compliment, But for me, I want that to be
the bar, like I don't want I don't want that
to be the exception to the rule. You know.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Yeah, and that's the other thing to you always make
sure your set's running good. But again that's having that
team right, you know, making sure you have a producer
who you know and if that person's going to be
the producer. You know, do you have a UPM you know,
do you know, have a location manager, Do you have
you know, a solid first a D you know, do
you have a solid cinematographer? Usually what you know, when

(17:57):
what I've come across is when someone's going to make
a project and they have people work for free, usually
there's one sexy selling point. And what I mean by
that is usually they have some amazing location they can use,
or you know, some kind of you know, you know.
For instance, I had a friend of mine make a
film and he ended up having a world class cinematographer

(18:18):
on there, and that was a selling point, going, look,
you know, the film's gonna look good, and you know,
because we have this cinematographer, and people were actually more
interested in enjoying the project because they said, hey, if
this prop person is a part of it, you know
what I mean, then it's gonna be good.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
Definitely, I would say, you know, for us, maybe it's
kind of half a miracle that we pulled it off.
You know, I never had an ad for any of
these days, so I mean it was I lost my
voice so much just because I was doing double duty,
you know, with the directing, and especially there's a scene
in here where we had like forty extras and majority
of them were you know, kids under the age of eight.

(18:54):
So you know, like I said, trying to get that
many people at it was a party scene, so there
was you know, noise and a whole bunch of stuff
coordinated is very difficult. But I'm a firm believer if
you know, you put something to mind, it truly can happen.
As corny as it sounds, would I do it that way?
Gainified a choice? No, But you know, I think a
lot of times in micro budget cinema, you just got

(19:16):
to treat it like it's almost its own separate thing
from normal filmmaking, because you know it well, I say,
that not as a slight to it, but you know,
when you get put in these situations like, for example,
another thing that happened during filming, our sound guy got
sick on the third day and you know, thanks to
going to ECU and you had to run a boom.

(19:36):
None of our pas had touched it. And I was like, okay,
it was our shortest day. I'm gonna have to run
this boom. And I was not excited about it. But
it was like everyone came out, we had this restaurant
cleared out, and it was the only day we were
going to be able to get in this restaurant, and
if we didn't shoot, we're going to lose the location,
and you know, we waste a whole bunch of people's
time and blah blah blah. So I mean it's really

(19:57):
just rolling with the punches, and you know, we called
it off. I made it work.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
What again, would I choose to do that?

Speaker 3 (20:13):
No?

Speaker 4 (20:13):
But I think when you do work in micro budget,
you just kind of have to be flexible. And you know, definitely,
if anyone has ego, I mean, check that shit. At
the door because that does not even fly. Like you know,
had I been on a normal set, there would be
no way in hell I would touch a boom pole.
But in a situation like that where you're making your movie,

(20:36):
you know, for me, this was like one of the
most personal stories I've ever told, you know, in a
lot of ways, and so you know, for me, I
just wanted to get the thing made, and so I knew, okay,
I got to buy a bullet do this, and I
just kind of roll the punches.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
Yeah, ego is something that is very dangerous. And you know,
I've I've been a part of some projects, man, where
some people's egos were so unbelievable. And you know, I'm
usually sort of the bad cop, like I'll be the guy,
and I don't mean, I don't you know, just you know,
you don't fight fire with fire right away. I just
sort of get to take him aside and say, hey, guy,
you know, maybe we should just tone this down. I

(21:10):
think some people, you know, and you know, I mean
I've met some people who were just I don't know
where they get their ego from. It's it's almost like
somebody when they were younger told them that they were
so special and so talented, and they can everybody else
can just go fuck themselves and then you and then
they come to these film sets and it's like, hey,
I'm here, let me you know, real quick, little funny story.

(21:30):
I went to a friend of mine's film set and
it was about that it was a horror movie, was
a slasher film, and there was this PA it was
walking around who thought that he was God's gift to
film and thought he was so de rel you know,
thought he was so misused by being a PA. And
I said, hey, you know, you know, what's this guy's deal.
I went to shake his hand, He's kind of looked
at me, and I was like, what the fuck? And

(21:51):
and later on somebody said, oh, yeah, he doesn't want
to be a PA, and the director knows he's got
an ego problem and just made him a PA, sort
of like a punished type deal. And yeah, I mean
it was just I said, why doing this fire the guy?
Why do you even have you know, I'd rather have
nobody and just put you know, tape on the floor
and say hey, come in here, this way, this ways,
the craft, this ways, the set, well, this way's the

(22:13):
group of Yeah, so it's like, well, you know, the
ego just it just I mean, I I you know,
I've encounted that before and it really, it really is
so toxic because it starts to spread other people too. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:24):
I mean when I got out of film school, I
worked on Shark Tank for a little bit, and you know,
I was a camera pa and I kind of worked
my waff a little bit of Matt World. You know,
it's not really a world. I love hanging out in
a lot reality, but I've done a lot of it,
and you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with it,
but I do see actually, believe it or not, a
lot of ego in reality TV. And this is on

(22:45):
the crew side, not in all shows. And actually Shark
Tank is not my example. They were actually very lovely.
But I worked on some other shows after that, and
you know, I saw a lot of these like reality directors. Man,
they like thought they were God's gift. And I'm just like, man,
you're you're directing like a fake fight between people on

(23:07):
like a TLC show, like what like you know, and
I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, but I mean,
you know you're gonna get what you kind of deserve
gossip wise, I guess by your crew if you're acting,
you know, just like an idiot and like, you know,
telling people, oh, you don't know who I am. I
did this pilot of this. I'm just like, well, I
mean half this stuff I've not even heard of. And

(23:28):
that's kind of my problem. It's like, I don't like
pretentiousness on any level. But if you're gonna, like, you know,
if in this and I'm sure he's a wonderful guy,
but you know, if Scorsese was a little pretentious to me,
I guess I could take it because he's Scorsese. But
you know, it's like if some of these other people
do it, you know, I kind of, you know, have
a little question mark over my head and I kind

(23:48):
of look at that a little weird. So you know,
for me, I just try to not be pretentious and
not not you know, act like an idiot, you know,
treat people with respect. You know, I've been there. I've
been the PA. I know kind of how much you
know it sucks and how a lot of times people
take advantage of you. So you know, with this film,
I tried to tell my PA's you know, I don't

(24:08):
want you to just grab coffee, like I want you
to tell me what you want to do and will
put you near that department or if you have questions,
you know, between takes, feel free, like you can talk
to me, like I don't want to ever appear or
seem unapproachable. So that that's kind of my mindset.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah, the you know, I we can understand Scorsese's pretentious.
You know, I had one time I was on a
film set and one of the guys said was arguing
with another guy, and he says, do you know who
I am? I won the South Blah blah blah film Festival.
No one's ever heard of this fucking film festival. And
the fact that he won it with some movie called

(24:50):
I think it was called a dirt Bag or sleeves
Bag or something, and and he screened at one time
and I was like, this movie won a film festival.
I said, what was the two entries? And but like
when he said that, everyone just kind of laughed, and
it's just like, you know, there's there's two options. Either
you're just ignore that guy or people start to fuck

(25:10):
with them, you know what I.

Speaker 4 (25:11):
Mean, Like, well, well, my dad always had a saying
when I was a kid when I you know, act
it out or whatever, you know us to be like.
You know, if if I could roll the tape back
on that and show you, you'd really see how much
of an idiot you were. And I, you know, I
apply that to anyone else I meet, because I think
a lot of times, in the heat of the moment,
people say stupid stuff. But you know, if we were

(25:32):
to roll the tape back, so to speak, on everyone,
I think a lot of people would admit, Wow, I'm
coming across like a douchebag.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
Yeah, I I That's why it is so important about
building that team to just make sure you know, all
those egos are toxic people or people who are going
to try to, you know, take over the project. You know.
I had one time some people message me and I
wasn't even part of the project, and they were working
with a friend of mine and they said, Dave, can
you go talk to him because he's listening to this

(26:00):
one guy who started off as nothing. He was just
like a consultant, and now all of a sudden, he's
a producer and he's going and telling us how he's
trying to micromanage everybody. And they said, you know this
was this started off as a fun little project and
now this guy's like ruining every everything. Can you can
you talk to him? Uh to my friend who was
in charge, and I said, I I don't think I
can go down that path because he like because you

(26:21):
know what I mean, because he likes that guy so much.
It's like you got to pick and choose your battles
and what the well.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
Absolutely, and going back to what you said about the team,
I mean, that's the most important aspect, you know, both
in life and in filmmaking, is just surround yourself with
good people.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
Yes, very true. Cat all those negative people, those hateful, passive,
aggressive people, and uh, you know I just read an
article on Twitter the other day about how that how
like this snarky attitude that some people have, Like oh yeah,
that's real fucking cool. You know that attitude you have
to get you know that that's even toxic to yourself,
you know what I mean? And and and so what

(26:56):
happens is if you have those people on set, we're like,
oh great, we're doing another film. Get those people out.
I don't care what they've done in the past, how
talented they are, just ask them very politely to leave
and just try to, you know, say hey, listen, we thanks,
but no thanks.

Speaker 4 (27:10):
Well, you know, isn't that the worst kind of person,
you know, someone who complains about the environment in which
they're very part of. You know, it's like, if you're
so wonderful, why are you here? You know. It's like
I always find that, you know, kind of gross, and
you know, anytime I see that, I just kind of
have to roll my eyes a little bit. I mean,

(27:31):
there's definitely a culture, you know, with certain people who think,
you know, they're better than this, or they don't have
to do this, or you know. But you know, at
the end of the day, it's like, if you feel
that way, why did you show up in the first place. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah, it's really odd, and I think it is an
ego thing, you know. They just want to make themselves
feel heard and seen. Like, you know what I was
gonna I could have been in my apartment today, but
instead I'm going to be out here on this film
set telling you how great I am. Yeah I can't.

Speaker 4 (27:57):
It's like, you know, I could be in my underpants
watching Netflix, but I decided to grace you with my presence.
So it's like oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, you know, it's one of the reasons why I
refuse to watch cinema sins and trailer whatever that's called
the truth of the trailer or oh honest trailers, that's it.
And you know those two things because it's just like
the snarky, nitpicking type of deal and some and you know,

(28:27):
you could tell that both the people who run them,
I guarantee you want to be filmmakers, and they just
are too frustrated or can't do it, so they just
have to make this thing where they insult other people's work.

Speaker 4 (28:37):
Yeah. I mean, I don't know personally for them, but
I mean I know there are people that way, definitely,
And you know, I think it's unfortunate because again not
to you know, PROD the fire or whatever. But you know,
nowadays it's easier than ever to be a filmmaker. So
it's like, if you're still ragging on people, it's like, damn,
what's your excuse?

Speaker 3 (28:59):
And you know what's fun, Evan. I have friends who
I've known who are like that. You know, I'll enter,
you know, I'll post what I'm doing on social media, like, Hey,
I'm entering this contest. This guy sent me an email,
and it was just this attitude like, oh man, I
wish you know, I don't have the time anymore, blah
blah blah and this, and I'm like, dude, you know,
write a page a day or something I don't know,

(29:20):
or write something I mean, you know what, why are
you coming to me?

Speaker 4 (29:23):
You know what I mean? Like, and was sitting you
up for advice or he was just saying like I'm
tired of seeing you talk about stuff.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
It was more like a backhanded, backhanded compliment sandwich. It
was like, hey, good to see you doing stuff well.
But then then here comes the passive aggressiveness and then
he finishes up with like another compliment. So it's kind
of like, you know, I don't know how to take
this sandwich.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
But yeah, no, I've gotten a couple of those over
the years. And I mean, I think it's just like
when you're doing something good or well, or you know,
maybe not even good or well, just in general just
being active and not you know, sitting on your couch.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (30:09):
You know, some people take offense to that, or some
people wish they were doing that and you know, I mean, again,
everyone has their own situation. I'm not going to pretend
I know why. You know, some people can't make a
film every year or whatever. But you know, to those
of us who are attempting to do that, I really
don't think you know the way to do it is,
you know, backhanded compliments. I mean, if you're interested in
truly doing that for yourself, ask how did you do it?

(30:31):
Ask how can I help you? Ask can you help me?
You know, I think there's a more productive way to
have that conversation.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
And you know what, I want to have that conversation
right now, Evan, I want to ask how you did it,
because you know, with Son of Clowns, you know you
so let me just guess with what you did and
maybe you can correct me. You know, maybe I'm wrong,
But you sat down and I think you made an
asset list of what you had access to, and you
sort of built the script on that, and you sort

(31:01):
of and you already had your team in place, and
you sort of, you know, you showed your team, hey,
I made this, I wrote this script. Son of Clowns.
What do you think they need to give you some feedback?
And you know, maybe went through a few drafts and
then you were saying, you know what, I think it's
ready to make this thing. And you you know, you
got those you know, the asset list, you you know,

(31:22):
you know, you you knew you had access to that stuff,
and you were able to sort of put together, you know,
a shooting schedule, and you were you know, you put
everyone's schedules together, you know, of all the actors, and
you know, you got yourself a cinematographer or who was
already a part of your team, or you did it yourself,
and you were able to, you know, within one degree

(31:43):
or another, pretty much shoot the script that you wrote
because you sort of wrote from the inside out. Am
I right or wrong?

Speaker 4 (31:50):
That's pretty pretty accurate to how the dominoes fell? Yeah,
I mean pretty much that's what I did. You know,
I started this project completely a couple of months after
I got out of film school. I was like, okay,
I want to write something.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
You know.

Speaker 4 (32:05):
I was kind of schlepping it out on those reality
shows coming home at night, kind of wishing I could
do something a little more artistic. So I started writing,
and you know, took about you know, yearish, and at
that point I was finishing some promotion film festival circuit
touring for my last short, Displacement Welcome, which was my
thesis film from Film School at East Carolina, And during

(32:28):
one of those kind of interview situations, I met this
guy named Bradley Bethel, and he was a writer, but
he also expressed an interest in wanting to make movies
and produce and he was in the middle of making
a documentary and he you know, had a lot of
success with that, and he was saying he was interested
in kind of shifting into producing narrative film as well.
So once I met him, it was kind of a

(32:48):
combination of my network and his network. So I met
my cinematographer through him. He met his assistant producer through me,
So you know, we kind of shifted and traded around
people we both it's new until we had this amalgamation
of a whole bunch of people. And then kind of
going back to what you said about, you know, making
a list of assets and things that had access to
absolutely because you know, when you're making a micro budget film,

(33:12):
you know you really don't have the luxury of just
like pointing to a place on the street and saying
we're gonna buy that place out for a day and
stick our cameras in there, because that's not how it
works when you're doing this. You know, we found these
locations weeks and months in advance, and you know said, hey,
what is the time when you know you're either doing
little to no business or your clothes. So that way

(33:32):
we don't have to you know, shut you down and
you know, take your guys's you know, cash full out
for a couple hours or whatever, you know, and make
it as easy for you guys as possible. And you'd
be surprised if you kind of phrase it that way
what a lot of people will be willing to do.
You know, we kind of explain to them we will
promote this film heavily. Your you know, stuff will be seen.
But you know, I think more than that, Like that's

(33:55):
kind of promises that you know, people have heard before.
I think if you're just transparent and honest and you
just say, look, we don't want to cost you money,
because like if you're a bar owner, right so we
filmed in several bars. If you're a bar owner and
I and Evan Kid just randomly shoots you an email
you don't know me from Adam. You know, you open
your email and you just see, hey, we have this
in you feel wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, lest film your peace

(34:16):
please blah blah blah. You're gonna be like, okay, so,
uh is this going to cost me money? Am I
gonna be out? And you just have to make it
speak their language. Essentially, they don't care that you're making
this personal film. Blah blah blah. All they care about
is Okay, I want to help you out, but you know,
let's not cost me a lot of money. So that
that's kind of the situation we framed with them.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
So the reason I was able to to sort of
gauge out Evan is because you know, I've done this myself,
and lately I've been sort of that's been my you know,
for podcast listeners. They know that for every time I
introduce a show. Now, I've been talking about this, you know,
you know making you know, how do you make a film?
You know, how do you make a film with what
you have access to right now? And you know, some

(34:59):
people at the Rodrigaz list, Uh you know, I actually
had Robert Riguez as a producer on here and we
and even and I were talking about that because he's like, yeah, Dave,
you pretty much got it. That's exactly what he what
he did. And uh so, you know, you know, if
you have access, you know, let's just say, for instance,
I had friends of mine. They had access to an
old abandoned meat packing plant and they had the key

(35:20):
and they were able to film there. And you know,
that's if that became a location. You know, Okay, we're
going to set the entire film in this abandoned meat
packing plant. Well what happens in there? Well, obviously it's
a horror film because you're not going to set a
comedy in there. So so it's now you know, it's
a slasher film, okay, And they're stuck in there, all right,
and you know, one thing leads to another and they
sort of, you know, go from there, and you know

(35:43):
that that's sort of how they built the script, you know,
and I think that's how And I just also noticed
this too, Evan. I think this is sort of becoming
the calling cards slash hallmark of our time, where this
is this is a a sort of definition of talent.
Can a person or film maker make a film in
one location and keep it interesting? You know, what I

(36:03):
mean ken a person, you know, make a movie with
you know, the Rodriguez list and keep it interesting. And
I sort of think this is a you know, sort
of the benchmark now where we're serious filmmakers and people
who just sit around and say, hey, listen, I have
an idea for a film. You know, I don't know
what to do, and I'm just gonna wait until somebody

(36:23):
gives me ten million dollars exactly.

Speaker 4 (36:26):
You mentioned Rodriguez, I mean him and link Later and
filmmakers like that. I mean, that's who I kind of idolize,
and you know, watched growing up in high school and
going through film school, and you know, those are kind
of the mindsets I like to kind of, you know,
put myself in if possible, because you know, I mean,
working with a million producers and investors in Hollywood's money

(36:49):
and you know, or some you know, rich guy's money
or whatever. I mean, that would be fantastic. I'm not
gonna lie. But you know, at the same time, I
think resource based filmmaking will get you a story that
you're not going to get if you make you know,
a film that way, if you kind of do it
quote unquote by the book I think in resource based filmmaking,
like you said, you know, there's people who will set

(37:10):
films in there, you know, meatpacking, abandoned warehouse, or you know,
like a lot of the mumble course stuff from ten
years ago, New York apartment pretty much the whole time.
And you know, I think a lot of people poke
fun at that, or you know, kind of look at
it in a different way. But I mean, I actually
think there's a lot of strength to being a good
enough filmmaker to set something in one location like you said,

(37:32):
and keep it interesting. I think that might make you
more talented than if you, you know, have a film
that puts you in an outer space going through a different
planet every ten minutes or whatever. You know, nothing wrong
with that, but I just think that's more interesting to me.
And you know, a lot of times filmmaking is like
solving a puzzle. So you know, for me, I like that,
I like that challenge. And I mean for Son of Clowns,

(37:54):
we probably made it harder on ourselves than we needed to,
just because we did have so many locations and a
lot of times your characters would drove around throughout the
triangle at North Carolina. That's the region of the film
is set, and you know, we probably didn't need to
make it is in depth as we did, but we
kind of wanted the film to have a slice of Raleigh,
North Carolina, So we kind of wanted to incorporate a

(38:14):
lot of different locations to give you know, people who
knew the area a little taste of it. And so,
you know, if we were to do it a different way,
like you know, I'm writing a new feature right now
and it's a little bit more of a psychological film,
a little bit more introspective, a little darker, and I
think you know, that film is probably going to be
a little bit more similar to that where you know,
there will be not as many locations, so it's going

(38:36):
to rely a lot on you know, character development. Not
that Santa Claus doesn't there's a lot of character development,
but you know, I think just in terms of getting
a new location to kind of you know, refresh your
you know, the ad of the audience so to speak.
You know, you may not get that, so I think
that is interesting definitely, and kind of being able to
tell that and convey that in a compelling way as
you know, a mark of strength.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
Yeah, and also you know, This is something I've talked
about before, which is if you were to live let's
just say, you know, I live in Philadelphia. You're in
North Carolina, correct.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Yeah, by way of Louisiana at the moment. I'm working
on a project, but yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
So you know where we live. People sort of aren't
burned out yet from from being asked. You know, if
you go to LA and say, hey, listen, I can
I shoot here, They're gonna say, look, look, buddy, you're
the third person today who's asked us about about that,
and the answer is going to be nice.

Speaker 4 (39:26):
Yeah, oh sure. I mean I was in Los Angeles
last month for a film festival for Son of Clowns,
and it was kind of I'd been there before briefly
during layover, but you know, I was there for three
days this time and kind of got my feet wet,
so to speak, in LA. And you know, I was
talking to some folks at the festival and they were
just telling me all the same things, and they were
like the locals, and they were just saying, you know,

(39:47):
independent film is super tricky if you live in Los Angeles,
like they were saying, it's almost harder over there, just
because you know, people know, and it's such a part
of the culture, and you know, Hollywood is king over there.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
So you have a little bit of resistance. I mean,
you could obviously shoot something in your backyard or your
apartment or whatever. But like if you're, like you said,
trying to get into bars and stuff, you know, you
may as well forget it unless you've got a lot
of money.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely, It's just it's you know, even a
friend of mine who actually found a little independent spot,
every time he shot there, they would raise the fee up.
You know, they kept raising the fee up a little
bit more, a little bit more, and finally he by
like the fur or sixth time. He said, my god,
it's caused you know. It's now it's like a little
this little coffee shop they charge us like, I think

(40:45):
two hundred bucks. Now he's like, they're charging us over
one thousand dollars, and he said, you know, it just
doesn't make any fiscal sense anymore.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
Yeah, I know. I mean, if if we were to
film done of clowns in that coffee shop for two days,
we would have gone over our whole budget for the film.
You know, I'd be like, that's the short of it.
But you know, I definitely think if you want to
be an independent filmmaker, I would advise anyone to find
a city that's big enough to have crew base and
you know, film schools around it, so you know, maybe

(41:13):
not the middle of Idaho, although you could maybe challenge
yourself to do something out there. I don't know, but
if you find one of these kind of regional big cities,
I think you can really set yourself up for success.
Because I had a lot of friends who, after ECU
and film school, moved to Los Angeles, and like, several
of them are doing pretty good for themselves, but like

(41:33):
a couple others are really struggling, and you know, it's
a hard I mean, everyone knows it's hard out there,
but you know, a lot of them have not made
their own work since film school, and I think that's
just kind of hard because once you're in that system,
you kind of need to you know, be a cog.
You know, not as an insult, I'm not saying this,
but you kind of have to do that first before

(41:54):
you're allowed permission. And I think anywhere else you you
know that's there, but you kind of get a little
more leeway to say, okay, wait, back up, I want
to make my own story. How do we do this?

Speaker 3 (42:06):
Yeah, you know, and I've heard that same, you know,
same type of experience too, is you know some people
do you know kind of well out there. A friend
of mine ended up you know, crewing on different stuff.
Then he went to Louisiana. Now, yeah, where he you know,
he's working on Crewe a project. You know, he's working
on tons of projects and crew and other friends. You know.
I had one friend who went out there. He had
contacts out the ass and you know what happened, Evan,

(42:30):
He felt very lonely and isolated out there. And he said, basically,
you know, everyone's always busy and one's always working, and
he just felt, you know, basically his only people he
could talk to with the people at like a Chinese
restaurant or whatever, and you know, because he would order
from them every day. He'd go down there and they
would know who he was and he'd say, oh, yeah,
it's me, you know. Uh, and you know, he just

(42:51):
he hated it and he ended up moving back, and uh,
funny little story, Evan. He still hasn't made a movie himself.
And you know, we always I talked before about you know,
I said, what you know because he asked me. He's like, Dave, seriously.
We went out to dinner and he said, Dave, what
is holding me back? And I said, your fear of
failure is holding you back because if you if you
think that you make this movie and it sucks, it's

(43:14):
going to mean you have no talent and it's going
to be indicative of everything that you've spent your whole
life doing. Yeah, and that's what's stopping you.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
Yeah, I mean, fear is uh. You know, there's a
book I've read. I think Robert Riguez mentioned in an
interview a whole bunch of years back, and it's called
The Art of Fear. And it's a book that basically
categorizes every doubt, every little inkling of you know, why
we shouldn't do an artistic endeavor into a category and

(43:41):
kind of lets you filter through it so you can
catch those thoughts before they come. It's a great read.
It costs like eight bucks on Amazon. I would totally
recommend it, but you know, I would say it's not
just that book, because I mean, I made these this
film before I read that book. But I mean, I
think it's just a mindset and you know, I hate

(44:02):
just the little Nike just do it. But I mean
it's so true, like there's no one way that you're
going to be successful. There's no one way that you're
gonna make this, you know, feature short or whatever. But
you know, if you try, you can at least they try,
because I mean, isn't that the worst thing to go
to bed at the end of the day and kind

(44:22):
of all over in your head. Man, I still haven't
taken the jump. I mean, because at the very least,
if you take the jump and it's a horrible failure,
I mean, who who's really going to care? Like I mean,
maybe a few of your friends will be like, yeah,
he tried to make a movie, But like I guarantee
you a few of your friends have much bigger problems
than you know, trivializing over your movie. So you know,
I mean, at the end of the day, it's really
you that has to deal with it. So you know,

(44:44):
if you can kind of make peace in your own mind,
I think that's the key. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
There's also a great book called The War of Art
by Steven Pressfield.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
Oh I've got that one.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yeah, yeah, it is, you know what. I read that
book and I very rarely ever just put down a book.
You know that that's not fiction, and uh and and say,
holy crap, I gotta read that again right now. Literally,
I sat down to read it at a Barnes and Nobles.
I read the whole thing, and I still I was like,
you know what, I'm gonna go buy this. I have
to buy it. I mean, this is like my my,

(45:13):
my new go to thing and everything he talks about.
I was like, that's me. This is you know, you know,
you sit down to write and all and in one
ear you're hearing you know, sort of like you know,
your your your your muse. And then the other year
is resistance, you know, whisper, you know, whispering in your ear. Oh,
you have no talent. Don't do this. It's stupid. You're awful.

(45:34):
Just forget about this and go be you know, go
sell you know, uh, snow cones down the beach and
you're like, well, you know what I guess I should
and you and you know what I mean, And I've
I've been there, you know where you're like, you know
what I should just go out forget all this stuff
and just go get a job, uh, you know, doing
whatever instead.

Speaker 4 (45:53):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean we've all dealt with that
kind of depression and that kind of wrestling within your mind,
you know, as you're an artistic person. I mean I
can only speak to my own experiences, but I mean
I know that to me is a lot worse than
the fear of failure. I mean, the depression and the
kind of you know, funk you get yourself into when
you're not working. I mean that freaks me out a

(46:15):
lot more than just making a film and it's like,
oh no, some people didn't like it. That's a lot
more frightening. So I mean, for me, it's never been
really about failure. It's it's been I just don't like
those kind of periods where I'm not doing something because
I feel like, Okay, what's wrong. There has to be
a reason, you know, maybe it's outside of filmmaking blah
blah blah. But you know, I think keeping yourself busy

(46:36):
and keeping yourself sane is the best way to do it,
because I mean, you can get caught up in your
head too easily. I mean, especially these days. I mean
you know, a lot of times, like we spend so
much time just staring at devices and you know, like
kind of not actually engaging with the world around us,
so you kind of end up in your head a
lot more than you may otherwise. And you know, I
think it's the best way to filter through that is

(46:58):
to make work, you.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Know, yes, yeah, And I think that's where a lot
of frustration for some people comes in, is that they
can't either they don't want to write because they think
that if it's bad, it's indicative of them, even if
they write a script, you know, and it's and it's terrible.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
You know.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
I've had to learn a very hard lesson, and I've
had to learn this over and over again, and that
is to stop trying to get perfectionism on the first draft.
I don't I I it's like this weird thing with me, Evan,
Like I will outline like you. I mean, I will
outline pages and pages and pages, and then I'm like, oh,
you know what, maybe let me, let me do something different.
And I'm just like it's almost like you're you're you're

(47:34):
going in that hamster wheel because you're always taking that
first draft and then you and then you you say, hey, no,
I'm gonna start draft one one dash B and then
it's one draft C and then you know what I mean,
And then you're you're still in that first drift instead
of just getting something done and then trying to go
back and trying to figure out what worked what didn't work. Uh,
you know, And I think that's a lot of what
holds people back.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
Oh absolutely. I mean I would say I just wrote
a pilot and it's a series that I'm gonna attempt
to work on here in uh, Louisiana. And the guy
I'm working on it with, you know, we basically just said, like,
let's get the Vomit draft out because we basically want
to shoot this pilot on our own and have a
you know, solid, you know, cut pilot, everything like that

(48:17):
nice and done to present to some investors to hopefully
get funding for the best to season. And you know,
for me, I was so worried about that. So I'm like, man,
there's a lot of people, there's eyes, there's people who
are going to try to repress. It's got to be perfect,
It's got to be perfect. I'm just like, I'm only
in stage one of the draft. I haven't even finished
into edits yet, and we haven't even shopped the film.
We haven't even cut the film, So there's a lot

(48:38):
more filters we're going to go through before this thing
seen by anyone. So, like, I think that's the thing.
Everyone's thinking way too far ahead, and like I think
everyone just needs to kind of chill out a little bit.
And I know that sounds counter productive and I need
to take my own advice sometimes, but you know, I
think if if you really get a little bit more

(48:58):
relaxed with it, at least on a first draft. I'm
not saying like, don't work hard and don't outline and
don't do this, because that's all very critical. I mean,
pre production is the key to being successful. But I
think a lot of times not trying to be so
hard on yourself with that first draft, because if you're
so hard on yourself making that first draft that you
never actually write it, it doesn't even matter, you know.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you completely, man. And it
is getting that vomit draft out there. It is getting
something on the page, because that's the thing you get
stuck in your own head and you never sort of
stop thinking in terms of what if or It's what
somebody once told me is called this decision fatigue, you
know what I mean, where you sort of you make
so many decisions and you know that's taking of your energy,

(49:43):
you know what I mean. You're like, well, what if
this happens? No, no, no, what if this happens? And
then this happens? Then you're sort of just caught in
your own head of all these different options.

Speaker 4 (49:51):
Decisiveness is really underrated these days. Man.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (50:06):
And it's hard to be decisive, I think because there
are so many options. I mean, like with film and
not you know, and just in life. I mean, there
are so many options with pretty much everything we do nowadays.
Do you want to shoot it on the sixty? You
do want to shoot it on see you one hundred
mark too? Don't want to shoot it on the lex?
I mean, like, so many options. But the end of
the day, it's just a damn camera if that's what

(50:26):
you're worried about, or you know, am I going to
cast this person to that person? If it's a micro budget, Well,
at the end of the day, your actors are pretty
much just a vessel that you're telling your story through.
You're not dealing with like Brad Paiter or anyone you know,
outrageously famous. So just make your stuff. I mean, like
at the end of the day, like all these little decisions,
they are important, but I think we as filmmakers really

(50:47):
to kind of trivialize them and kind of really make
them way more blown up than they have any business being. So,
I mean, I think a lot of times just committing
to something and again, I mean I'm guilty of it too.
It's hard to be decisive sometimes, but I think just saying, Okay,
I'm writing ten pages today, or I'm writing from two
o'clock to three o'clock, not looking at my phone. I'm
not gonna check Twitter, blah blah blah. I'm just gonna,

(51:08):
you know, turn off the Internet and just write. I mean,
like that's really underrated and that's and it's difficult, but
you know, I think doing that and getting in a
habit of kind of reprogramming your brain is really helpful
to getting work done.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
Yes, yeah, getting that, you know, just turning off all
those distractions. And I think that is a thing too, man,
you know, is that the cell phone is like this
sort of the double edged sword. You can do so
much with it, but there's also so many things vying
for your attention. And what I what I find is
when I'm gonna write, I take the cell phone away
and I just sit in front of my computer. I
can turn off the Internet through a number of different

(51:45):
add ons and you know what I mean, and you
just and I just work inside something like open Office,
which is free because it's open sourced, or even just
Notepad or fade in or final Drift and just that's that,
make a full screen mode and just write for you know,
twenty minutes and get into that habit. Because somebody once
told me, oh, I'm gonna butcher this, but I think

(52:06):
it's you know, actions become habits, and then habits become
what you're known for. Oh yeah, and I maybe I
did butcher that. I'm not sure, but uh, but that
but that's so true, you know, and you're you're gonna
they're gonna say, hey, there's Evan. That's the guy who
can write for you know, two or three hours without
looking at his phone. He's a freaking superstar, because you know,
most people can't go five secs.

Speaker 4 (52:27):
I don't know if I'm there yet, but I'm working.
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's hard. It's definitely
hard to turn off those distractions.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
Yeah, it real, it really is. And uh, you know,
you know, Evan, you know, we've been talking for about
you know, forty eight minutes, and I just want to ask,
you know, before uh, you know, would we start wrapping up.
I just want to ask about Son of Clowns. You know,
what was one of the biggest production issues that you had.
I mean, whether it be a location or maybe you
were gonna film outside and thunderstorm rolls in. You know

(52:56):
what was one of the biggest production issues you ran
in while making Son of Clowns?

Speaker 4 (53:00):
I mean kind of throwing through just time. I mean,
we shot this whole feature in ten days, which was
really a brutal schedule. You know, we a lot of
times we would just pull ourselves up in a location
for three days, you know, do air mattresses, that whole thing,
and just get it done. We didn't shoot ten days straight,
but we shot ten days over the course of about

(53:21):
two weeks, two and a half weeks, so I mean
it was you know, three or four days straight, then
a day or two off and then right back at
it kind of so on and so forth. But I mean,
aside from time, I mean, I think it was just
trying to get conditions perfect because a lot of this
was I mean, it's a narrative film, but we shot
in the real world. There was no sound stages, there
was no you know, roping off an entire area to

(53:42):
make it quiet. I mean a lot of times we'd
have like giant trucks trying to come through and we're
filming in a parking lot for a scene, and like
this eighteen wheeler was trying to make a delivery and
then we had to stop and wait for him. And
then by the time he finished unloading his truck, like
the sun was way different, the lighting looked, you know,
completely off, and you know, it's just trying to fix
those things. And it's really easy in the moment be

(54:04):
like I we'll fix it in post. But it's just like,
don't shoot yourself in the foot. But I mean, I
actually you mentioned the thunderstorm. A quick little story from set. Uh,
there's a scene towards the end of the movie. I
won't spoil it, but a Jabbari who's Hudson's brother Hudson's
our main character in the film. Basically, they're they're mending

(54:24):
kind of a soured relationship between the two of them.
Something's gone wrong in a very big way. And basically
they're doing this scene where you know, they're trying to
make amends or Hudson's trying to make amends and you know,
Jabari's having none of it. And it's really this dramatic,
tense moment, Like, I mean, they were both doing so
good you could cut the tension with you know, a
pair of scissors, but out of nowhere, you just hear

(54:47):
this giant thundercloud and they stating character and just kept
going in that slowly started raining a little bit, and
then the light was all weird and wonky, but you know,
we kept brawling, and that's the take we used. And
so a lot of times when people watch the film,
there's this like thunder in the background while they're having
this argument, and a lot of people are like, did
you add that, And I'm like, no, no, no, that's
just from like the real world. So I mean it's

(55:09):
like it fit really well, I thought, and like it
didn't come off as like corny or weird, because I mean,
it didn't sound like an effect. I mean it was
just off in the distance and you could see it,
so it was really cool. And uh, you know, it's
just one of the situations where you know, we wouldn't
have got that from a sound stage. We wouldn't have
got that from you know, a whole bunch of like
polished you know, clean sets or anything. You know, it's

(55:30):
just shooting in the real world. That's what happens. So
I mean, I think you do get happy accidents like that,
but then at the same time you get the guy
unloading the eighteen wheeler, so that's a double edged sword.
So I think it's just a matter of like time
and getting those locations, you know, to work for you
instead of you working for your location.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
So yeah, you know, it's amazing when you're out there
actually filming all the things that could happen, and you
know sort of the some things can come together very well,
and then something's like you see the truck the guy
and learn the truck and can sort of put a
damper on things. And you know, uh, you know, just
some of the things that I found in hearing stories

(56:08):
about filmmaking and you know, vi own personal experiences, you know,
sometimes you just you just never know. I mean we're
For instance, I was going to film in uh for
three days out in this in this park, and I
looked at the weather forecast and they said it was
going to be beautiful all three days. Evan, it stormed
like crazy, and we were gonna use zombies and we
couldn't put them out there because the zombie makeup was

(56:29):
going to run, so we ended up having to sort
of do everything inside and they look completely different than
what we wanted. It was just, you know, we improvised
as best we could, but it's always like, damn it,
if only we could have done more outside.

Speaker 4 (56:42):
It's you know, yeah, I mean, filmmaking is just a
big game of improvisation and trying to stay two steps
ahead of the real world. And I mean like, as filmmakers,
we have an unhealthy habit of thinking the world's going
to stop for us while we're on set. But you know,
the world doesn't care. That guy, you know, unloading his truck,
he's just you know, doing it job, like, he doesn't
care that we're making a film. I mean, you know,

(57:03):
so it's like that's what you deal with. You know,
it's gonna rain or it's gonna do this or that,
and it's just a matter of being flexible. I mean,
I think like being kind of zen about everything and
really trying to, you know, I guess, be a little
bit hippie with it and just try not to let
every little thing bother you and just kind of be
a piece. I mean that's the key, because I mean,
if you're you have to be type A, I think

(57:25):
to make productions work. But I think if you can
kind of take a little bit of a type B
mindset when something goes wrong, you're gonna save yourself a
couple of great hairs. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
Absolutely. I think also meditation helps with that. Yeah, just
learning to learning to roll with this and be like, Okay,
you know what, we'll figure this out. I'm gonna become
very David Lynching about this. I'm gonna you know, try.

Speaker 4 (57:46):
Yeah. I mean that's that's how I try to be.
I mean, like Werner Herzog, he talks a lot about
you know, just shooting Gorilla and like just the stuff
that could go wrong and how you'd kind of incorporate
that into your film and how that's actually part of
your esthetic. And like, I mean I absolutely buy that
because I mean a lot of our film was just gorilla.
I mean it was just out there, and you know,
it was it was wild, and so, you know, you

(58:08):
deal with the situations that come by just sticking a
camera in the real world, and I think it gives
your film a little bit of authenticity. I think that's
actually really exciting, but I think at the same time
it's also challenging. But once you capture it's almost like, hey,
I got away with something. Hey we did it. We
you know, managed a film here, even though that guy
unloaded his truck or whatever, and so you kind of

(58:31):
walk away with a little bit of a you know,
excited edge you may not have got if you just
kind of rolled camera in a perfect little situation and everything,
you know, just checked off the list.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
Yeah, very very true, very true, Evan. You know, Evan,
just in closing, I want to ask where people check
out Son of Clowns.

Speaker 4 (58:50):
Yeah. So we are playing two more festivals at the moment.
Like I said, we were just at Action on Film
in Los Angeles, and we were at Yollywood Film Festival
in Atlanta this past weekend. And we've got Queen City
Film Festival in Maryland on the sixth, so it may
not be this may not be out by then, but
then we have a Cuckle Lauris Film Festival back home
in North Carolina, and I am super excited for that

(59:12):
film festival. That's one I've loved personally for a while,
and so it's gonna be a great homecoming for the film.
And actually, the day after Cuckle Lauris ends this film,
November fifteenth, is going to be streaming for Amazon Prime
and Amazon Video on Demand. So November fifteenth is the
day I think most people should remember because you'll be
able to check out Son of Clowns in full and

(59:32):
streaming on Amazon.

Speaker 3 (59:35):
And I will also link to all that in the
show notes everybody, and just in case, in case they
didn't get that. But again, it's at Davilis dot com,
Evan where we'll find you out online.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
Yeah, I do Twitter probably the most, So if you
do Twitter, Twitter dot com, my thing is at mister
Evan Kid. My work's also online Rocksetproductions dot com. That's
where I keep everything. And then obviously if you want
to know more about Son of Clowns in particular, Self
Clowns dot COM's got everything you need to know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's like you know, I always say,
you know, social media is a tool and it depends
how you want to wheel that tool. And Twitter is
one that I have. I have met so many people
in there, Evan. Uh you know, I I would say
you and I meant on there, but you actually you
and I meant through email, but.

Speaker 4 (01:00:29):
I saw you on Twitter. That's probably I think.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
So there you go. All right, the Twitter. Twitter is
the you know, it's an actual source of all that. Evan.
I want to say thank you so much for coming on.
This has been a blast of a conversation dude, and uh,
you know, I wish you the best son of clowns.
And uh, you know, if you ever want to come
back talk about you know, whatever else you're up to,
about the TV pole you talked about or whatever else,
please you know, there was always open.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
Yeah, thanks Dave. I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Oh my pleasure, Evan kid. I want to say thanks again,
and I wish the best of luck. Man.

Speaker 4 (01:00:58):
Thanks man, appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
And time take here, buddy.

Speaker 4 (01:01:00):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Forward slash four thirty five. Thank you so much for
listening to guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what.
I'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting
dot tv.