BPS 452: The Filmmaker Who Refused to Tap Out: The Making of Heel Kick! with Danny Mac

On this episode, we sit down with Danny Mac, a Canadian filmmaker, actor, and producer whose story is a masterclass in indie filmmaking grit. Best known for his mockumentary Heel Kick!, Danny proves that passion and persistence can turn any dream—no matter how outlandish—into cinematic reality. Without the luxury of film school or industry connections, Danny started his filmmaking journey in Edmonton, Alberta, a city without much of a film scene. With determination as his tuition, he taught himself the craft by writing, producing, and shooting his first feature, Love/Hate, entirely on weekends while working full-time during the week. That film, made with a mere $40,000 budget scraped from his and his co-producer’s life savings, became his film school—and, against all odds, it sold to a Canadian broadcaster, allowing him to break even on his very first project.Danny’s path wasn’t without struggle.

As a first-time filmmaker, he wore every hat imaginable—writer, producer, actor, and sometimes even location scout and transporter. The grueling process taught him one thing: passion can push you through exhaustion, but preparation and teamwork are what truly make a film succeed. His next project, Heel Kick!, would be an evolution of everything he learned—bigger in ambition, sharper in execution, but still rooted in the DIY spirit of indie film.Heel Kick! follows two backyard wrestlers who decide to “go pro” after years of goofing off, only to discover how brutally difficult the dream really is. Inspired by Danny’s childhood fascination with wrestling and his cousin’s real-life experiences at a wrestling academy, the film explores both the absurdity and humanity of chasing an impossible goal. What makes the story shine is its authenticity—Danny and his co-star actually trained at a professional wrestling school for six months to perform the stunts themselves. This dedication gives Heel Kick! a raw, physical realism rarely seen in low-budget comedies.When it came to funding and promotion, Danny combined old-school hustle with modern strategy. He launched a short GoFundMe campaign—not to start filming, but to finish it. Since the movie was already complete, fans could trust that their donations were going toward its release and screenings. That transparency paid off—literally. In just three weeks, he raised $12,000 to cover post-production and distribution costs. And while many filmmakers dread crowdfunding, Danny approached it with honesty and gratitude, proving that if you show people real progress, they’ll show you real support.Danny also secured the backing of Greg Miller, a YouTube and gaming personality known for his Kinda Funny network. Their friendship began after a charity event in Vancouver and evolved into a partnership when Greg joined as co-producer to help spread the word. His involvement brought Heel Kick! a new wave of attention, particularly from online audiences passionate about wrestling and indie entertainment.

Ultimately, Danny Mac’s story is about more than filmmaking—it’s about perseverance, community, and creative resourcefulness. His success with Heel Kick! reminds filmmakers everywhere that you don’t need a massive budget or a Hollywood connection to tell a great story. You just need to believe in your vision, work harder than anyone else, and embrace every lesson along the way. Whether you’re wrestling in a ring or fighting for your first film, the key to victory is the same: never tap out.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more
amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four fifty two.
Your dream doesn't have an expiration date, Take a deep
breath and try again. Kat You Whitten broadcasting from a dark, windowless.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Room in Hollywood when we really should be working on
that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you
the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how
to make your screenplay bulletproof.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.

Speaker 4 (00:46):
Now.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.

Speaker 4 (00:50):
Now.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
on the kind of project you are in the goals
of the project you are, so we actually break it
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(01:13):
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(01:34):
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
I have a Canadian filmmaker, actor and producer. He produced
a film and actually started as well and directed it
that it's very close to what I talk about a
lot on here, and you know it's pro wrestling in
one way or another. I know I don't talk a
lot about it pro wrestlings. I don't have to watched
it in years, but when I was growing up, I
watched it a ton, probably way too much. So we

(02:00):
just had Nick Bondo on, who was a professional wrestler
turned filmmaker. We've had a few other filmmaking projects here
and there that involved pro wrestling, but this one is
a unique one onto itself because it it really involves
backyard wrestling. And I love the tagline for the film too.
It's unprofessional wrestling is, which is a genius tagline. So

(02:20):
we're gonna talk all about this new film, Heel Kick,
which is actually going through a little tour right now
and then it'll be out later this year. We're also
gonna talk about how my next guest actually made money
with this first film, Believe it or Not, which is
just crazy to think of, right making money with your
first film. We're gonna talk about all that stuff, film school, networking,
finding contacts, and we go with a lot of really

(02:43):
cool producing stuff in this too, and we talked about
pre wrestling with guest Danny Mack.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
I did not go to film school, and it is
something that I knew I wanted to do when I
was growing up, but it just seemed too insurmountable and
too difficult. You're talking to me now from Edmonton, Alberta,
where I grew up. I'm just back here for my
grandma's one hundredth birthday and then i'll be back to
Vancouver tonight. But growing up here where there's essentially no

(03:12):
film scene, and it does have a fairly decent theater community,
but really film and television, there's not nothing, and there's
no one who's doing it, so I, you know, I
didn't have any inspirations surrounding me, and the prices for
film school were really high. And it's something that my
mom and I were looking at when I was fifteen
or sixteen, because clearly I had an interest in it

(03:33):
and I needed some sort of creative outlet because I was,
you know, kind of just being a little brat of
a kid. But it seemed too expensive and yeah, like
I said, there was just nothing around me to indicate
that it was something that I could pull off. So
so I kind of like let it. I wouldn't want
to say let the dream die. But you know, I

(03:54):
went to university and I still hadn't picked a major
or a minor after like two or three years, and
I was taking a lot of studies, you know, acting
because I liked it. So I was training here and there.
But I finally realized, you know, I could probably just
make a movie myself, and so began the journey of

(04:15):
me producing my own projects.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
So when you actually wanted to make your own movie, like,
what were some of the first things that you did
to sort of take those steps to actually make that movie.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
Well, we myself and my one of the co stars
in Heelkick and and my fellow producer Cooper b Bo.
We would look at scripts to get an idea of
how to format them and how they were written. And
then we, you know, just started to have writing sessions
together and anyone who would want to work on something creative,

(04:46):
we would. So we were writing sketches for the Fringe
Film Play Theater festival that we have here in Edmonton,
and and anyone who wanted to do something, you know
and throw it up on you were contributing. But he
and I were really interested in writing feature films. And
then because you know, we're we're actors and we're writers,

(05:10):
but we don't really know anything about the technical aspect
of filmmaking. We would seek out people who were in
film school and ask them if they would want to
come help us shoot something. And since we were something
the only people making an independent feature film in the city,
we got a lot of attention right away, and before
we knew it, we had a film crew on board

(05:31):
and they were helping us shoot our first feature film.
And this was back in twenty eleven.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
So when you were actually you got all that attention,
have you know, has things changed then? So, like I mean,
you know what I mean, Like, everybody you know who
has an iPhone now is a filmmaker. So have you
noticed have things actually changed where it's become passe or
maybe it's become the point where it's like in La
where it's a pain in the ass. I mean, have
you noticed any difference.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
Just in regards to like the amount of people who
are making film?

Speaker 3 (05:59):
You mean, yeah, exactly, and you're in your area.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
Well, I mean yes and no, because Vancouver is a
pretty big film city. A lot of stuff is filmed there.
It's a big service city, so a lot of big
productions come through there, and then you know, Vancouver actors
will help round out and fill out some of the
roles that are needed in the crew gets a lot
of work down there there as well. But yeah, it's

(06:24):
funny how you say everyone with an iPhone can be
a filmmaker, And that's true, and I think it's so
much easier for people to make films these days. But
the amount of drive and determination that it takes to
pull something like that off that doesn't change. It's still
backbreaking and it's still a serious commitment of if not money,
seriously time. So while it's easier than ever. I don't

(06:45):
think more people than ever are actually doing it, because
you know what I mean, it's tough to take that plunge,
and you know, first of all, it's tough to sit
down and write a film. It's tough to assemble a
crew and a cast, and it's tough to shoot the
thing and then edit it and then so you know,
as much as we have the resources available to us,
I actually don't see people taking advantage of it that

(07:06):
much because I think people do understand how much work
it is and that's kind of a scary, like it's
a turnoff for people.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, it's true. And you know when I say everyone
who thinks who has an iPhone is you know, considers
themselves a filmmaker, it's just because you know, it's kind
of like that idea, you know. I mean, I've done
commercial work too, where commercial videography work, and you know,
the guy's like, hey, my son and their daughter's got
an iPhone, why should I hire you? Or you know,
people who want to start throwing vlog on YouTube or

(07:35):
but yeah, I know it's dackly what you're saying. You know,
it does still take all that time and planning an effort,
which is why most movies don't get made right. They're
you know, nobody is normal who actually makes a film?
Normal is sitting on your calus talking about making a movie, right, Danny.

Speaker 4 (07:50):
Yeah, everyone on earth has done that. I got a
great idea for a movie or a book, or a
TV show or whatever. Everyone has said that at one
point in their life. It only takes truly insane people
to you know, think that that's something they should actually
try to do for a living.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
You know, it was funny one time. I actually came
home from a shoot one day and I was so tired.
I just wanted to shower. Another shower I already taken
on that day, but you know, it was that long
ass day, and I sort of plopped down the couch
and a friend of mine, you know, came over and
he was like, oh, you know, what were you doing today?
And Bob blind he goes, oh, man, I got this
idea for a movie. And I'm like, I don't want

(08:25):
to ever talk about movies again. I said, I am
so tired right now, like I'm just aching all over.
I was sunburned. I was like, I don't care, I don't.

Speaker 4 (08:36):
Yeah, and that eventually happens, like people say, you know,
what would be a great idea, and you're like, you
know what I mean, bringing my own idea. It's a life.
It's stressing me out, So please keep gradas to yourself
at this point because I can't help you. I'm losing
my mind working on my own projects. It's sad. It's
sad to say, but yeah, I definitely hear you.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
Yeah, it's it's that whole idea of like a friend.
It's always like, hey, you know, we're a friend from
high school. Do you get that? By the way, I don't.
I don't have to talk about that a lot. But
I have friends from high school who constantly send me
messages about some script or or or an idea that
they are. One wanted to shoot a zombie film in
the woods and he wanted my advice, and I'm like,
you've never talked to me ever unless you need something,

(09:20):
So I'm like, why the hell would I help you?

Speaker 4 (09:22):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
It's just it's just so it's so like phony, you know.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
I get a lot of that, but some people reach
out and I don't think it's that they necessarily like
want something from me, But at the same time, they
are like, I got a great idea for a thing.
All you would have to do is write it and
produce it and shot shoot it and get the money together.
Like I'm like, are you insane? Like there's absolutely And

(09:48):
you know, I don't have a shortage of ideas myself.
You know, I'm trying to figure out what i want
to do next and what I'm going to put out there.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
So we'll be right back after a word from our
sponsor and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
Someone with zero experience coming of saying like I got
a great idea and you haven't talked to them in
a long time. Yeah, it can be frustrating. God and
bless them, though, God and bless them.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah, it's it's that whole idea of Look, you know,
what's so complicated about this? You have all the connections,
and I'd sit there, I'd go, guys, it just doesn't
work like that. And I get a lot of See,
I'm glad that you understand what I'm talking about, you know,
And you get that a lot because I've had girls
too that I went to high school with who want
to be quote unquote actresses and they don't really want
to be actresses. You know, they want to show up

(10:35):
to set or wherever and take pictures of themselves so
people can tell them how beautiful they are.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
Yeah, there's really and you know, there's nothing glamorous about
like the job of an actor. Really, if you are
an actor, there's there's so many moments where you're like,
what the hell, this is not what I thought it
would be. But you have to love it, and I do.
But yeah, when I really explain to people, like what
my day like when I'm on set, either for a

(11:01):
commercial or a TV show or something, it's Yeah, it's
really a kick in the pants, I think.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
So, you know when we started in twenty eleven, when
you started making your own film, your first film, you know, yeah,
and you put everything together, you know, did you have
any of this culture shock that we're talking about right
now where you were like, oh my god, what the
hell did I get myself into?

Speaker 4 (11:23):
Yeah? Absolutely, And pardon me, I got the date wrong.
It was back in two thousand and nine. We started
writing it, and we shot it in two thousand and ten,
and yeah, holy crap, I could not believe how long
the days were, how long it took to get shot
set up, you know, I just you don't understand, and
especially I'd never been to film school, so that was
my film school. And I would have quit because it

(11:46):
was just so intense and there was so much work.
But Cooper and I put our life savings into the
movie and we completely funded it ourselves. So we kept
working our regular jobs Monday to Friday, and then because
we couldn't afford to pay anyone, we could only shoot
the movie Friday night, all of Saturday, all of Sunday,
and then we'd go back to work. We'd only shoot weekends.

(12:08):
And like, I was so drained. I could not believe
how tired I was, and I was almost so exhausted
that quitting would have required more thought and effort than
just staying the course. So we ended up finishing it.
But yeah, just when I say that, like that first
film was my film school, I really believe that, because

(12:28):
Trial by Fire is the only way that I've really
stuck to things and learned in my life. I've found
and yeah, it really prepares you for like what the
career is going to be. Like, of course you improve
the next time around. We made a ton of mistakes,
but you know, learning from them and going forward. There's
no better way to do it, I think.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
So what was the biggest obstacle you faced when making
that movie? Like, was there one day or one thing
that happened where you were like, I think I'm done?

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Hmmm.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
I mean that I feel like every every day honestly,
like somehow and this is crazy. And really the money
was our like least, like we were always worried about
the money because literally it was just his and my
life savings. We both put twenty thousand dollars up to
make this forty thousand dollar feature. But there was sort

(13:20):
of nothing to worry about because we had the money,
Like we didn't have to go knock on any doors
for more. So oddly enough, the money wasn't biggest problem.
But the biggest problem was was that we were producing
a film and we'd never done that before. We never
made a short. Well we had made a short film before,
but like that took that took an afternoon, and like
this was just so intense. So yeah, we we were

(13:40):
just we were faced with obstacles every day, Like we
didn't like transportation and getting everything to our certain locations
was rough, and who was going to return all the
year and like there was just things we didn't know
that were actual things that you had to do on set,
and so we had we didn't delegate properly. So it
just see like day one's like ninety things that are

(14:01):
undone that we need to just assign to people to
start doing. And because we were the producers and we
couldn't pay anyone, we had to do all those things ourselves.
So while money wasn't an issue, if you're not paying anyone,
you're not going to get any extra out of anyone.
You know, they were just doing it for the experience.
So we took on way too much and that was
probably why, you know, I can't even pick a specific thing,

(14:24):
but really the the umbrella of all the problems is
that we just wore way too many hats and we
juggled too many things.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
And you see, Danny, I think that happens to a
lot of filmmakers. You see, because everything is a little
more accessible quote unquote, you know, with whether there be
a camera or maybe it be you know, a way
to storyboard, or whether it be hey listen, I have
an idea or maybe you know what I mean, You
kind of build up this confidence to go in there
and do it. But I think when you wear so

(14:51):
many hats, you kind of it all hits you when
you're trying to do two things at once. And I
can tell you I remember I was going to doing
one of my films, one of my student films, and
I remember somebody had backed out who was supposed to
be like my location manager slash like upm and everybody
instead was calling me now as I'm trying to direct

(15:12):
the scene for like directions, questions about stuff. Hey, you
know what I mean. And I'm just like, guys, I'm
trying to direct a freaking scene here, and I'm trying
to talk to the cinematographer and I'm trying to do
this and people are coming up and asking me questions.
People are coming up because they the people who had
the location. There was like other stuff going on, so

(15:32):
people were walking in the room going, oh, is there
are you guys filming here? We're like, oh, Jesus Christ,
shoot me, now what did I do to myself?

Speaker 4 (15:40):
I got a funny story. Our very first day on set,
we actually didn't have the permits to shoot in the
park that we were shooting in, and I didn't know this,
so someone like a park ranger came up to our
director and was like, hey, do you have permits to
shoot here? And he was just petrified, and the only
thing he could think to say was the name of
the person he was supposed to email to get the

(16:02):
permits that he never actually did. And let's say that
person's name was Alex. So this park ranger comes up
to our director our first day on set, is like, hey,
did you get the proper permits to be here? And
all he says was Alex. And then the park ranger
somehow accepted that and was like, okay, well have a
good shoot and left us. But we could have been
like shut down before we begun, So God bless him

(16:26):
for that one. I have no idea how we weaseled
our way out of that situation.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
But it's like one of those movie jokes, you know,
where the character kind of just like blurts out an
answer by accident, like they're own jeopardy, and it's like, yeah,
that's exactly it, that's the answer.

Speaker 4 (16:41):
It's yeah. Meanwhile, oh, he's just like breathing heavily and
sweating his ass off because we almost lost everything, and.

Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, and see stuff like that. You know, I
have a funny story happened. Didn't have it on one
of my sets, but it was. I actually was visited
a set one day and this this kind of like
park ranger type of guy walks by and he looks
over and he just sees all these film cameras and
gear and everything else. And immediately I'm like, well, this

(17:12):
this guy. I know these guys who are running this
film set, who is film it is? I know they
don't have permits. And and I look at the park
ranger and he's on a bike and he just kind
of looks around and just pedaled off and never said
a word. And I think, I'm thinking to myself, what
made him not do this? Like what made him not
want to get involved? And here's here's there's two things

(17:33):
that I think that didn't and that made him not
want to get involved. As I kind of took a
look around. Number one was there was probably like three
hundred people there and just because it was a concert scene.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
And two, there was a guy.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
In an eight foot like monster costume just kind of
rampaging around, and I think both of them, he's probably like,
I don't even want to get involved, and whatever the
hell this.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
Is yeah, he could probably smell like the dreams that
he would have cried rushed also if he just followed
up on it. I think that was a big part
of it too. This park ranger was like, well, what
these kids look like They've got enough trouble already as
it is, So I'm just gonna bike away from this situation.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
And we're writing in Philadelphia too. We usually crushed streams
here in Philadelphia, So.

Speaker 4 (18:17):
You know that guy was the that that is the
city motto, isn't it where dreams go to be crushed?
I believe?

Speaker 3 (18:23):
Oh yeah, that that Hitchbot thing. It survived Canada and
everything else, and then as soon as it came here
was done.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
So Danny, would you if you got done making Love Hate,
which was your first film, how did you go about
releasing the film or even just marketing the film?

Speaker 4 (18:42):
That was another sort of I mean, we didn't do
too much marketing, but we really uh got lucky on
that one because we were able to sell the film
to a Canadian the on demand subscription or not subscription base,
but transactional video on demand channel called super Channel. And
the only thing that we had heard about it was
that a guy that we knew apparently hit a short

(19:05):
film and he sold it to them and they gave
him like fourteen thousand dollars. And we never confirmed this,
We never looked into it. We didn't even talk to
the guy. We're like, oh, if he can do that,
we can do it. So we proceeded to make this
film and then their head offices happened to be in
Edmonton where we shot Love Hate, and we literally just
drove there one day. We google maps where their offices were.

(19:27):
Cooper and myself just drove there in my old Honda
Accord with a blu ray of our film. We were like, Hey,
who can we talk to about buying our movie? They
were like, I guess the acquisition's head is here. So
we met with her and she passed the film off
to her team and we got a call like a
few weeks later saying that they would buy the movie

(19:48):
off of us, and we ended up breaking even on
our first project just from that and a couple of
theatrical screenings that we held ourselves.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
I mean, that is a hell Mary story.

Speaker 4 (19:58):
Man.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
You know, we'll be right back after a word from
our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
You just you threw it up there. But see, but
stories like that or a success, you know, that's what
people aim for, you know, it's to do stuff like that, Hey,
we sold our first movie, you know, or we you know,
we did this, or we did that.

Speaker 4 (20:23):
You know.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
It's it's funny. A guy I know actually used to
work with Orn Patelli, who did Paranormal Activity, and one
day I don't know if you've ever seen the first
or Paranormal Activity, but one day Oran came in and
he said, guys, I just want to say it's been
nice working with you. I I actually just want two
weeks in And I said, oh, well, you know what,
do you have another job? And he said, well, actually
I just sold a movie to Steven Spielberg. And they

(20:46):
were like yeah, right, like come on, what are you
really doing? He goes no. He goes no, like I'm
going to be on all these web series or not
web series, like like web interviews and stuff like that,
and he goes and I want to be all like
this channel was just you know, and that's it. Well,
like little by little they started like all these interviews
started popping up and they were like, oh my god,

(21:07):
this is amazing. But I mean it's stuff like that,
you know, stories like that that that you know, it
sort of keeps that indie film, indie film dream alive.
You know, we were able to actually, you know, do
these things, actually say hey, look we made our money back,
or we made least some money, and now we can
take that money and make another film exactly.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
And yeah, when you say it was a hail Mary,
it absolutely was because we were you know, we had
we were just delusional. We thought that the movie was
gonna explode and we'd make so much money that our
next film could be like triple the budget and and
then it would be smooth sailing. And then you know,
we were able to sell it. And so we got
national broadcast and we we made like a lot of
money off of just three threeatrical screenings that we did,

(21:47):
and so we made our money back plus maybe like
I don't know, like three grand each. And this was
after like three years of work. So like whoopie do right.
We were like upset. We were like, man, I can't
believe we only broke even. And other filmmakers like we
didn't realize how tough it was to you know, get
a broadcast deal and make your money back within like
six months of releasing your film, and all these other

(22:10):
filmmakers like, are you insane that you're complaining right now?
Like you sold your first film and you made all
your money back, Like what is your problem? And now
is I've just like been in the industry so much longer.
I was like, what a shitty little brat I was
being complaining that we didn't like bring in heaps of
cash from our little independent film and yeah, I'm just
you know, we did everything wrong, but it turned out

(22:31):
all right for us in the end. So I'm really
proud of our little effort that we put in back then.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
And I'm also glad that you got my football reference too, eause.
I mean, I know you're you're in Canada, and I'm like,
wait a minute, and will he understand the idea? Yeah,
I'm glad you got that right.

Speaker 4 (22:48):
Orange football here, there's nine downs before the ball changes hands.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Well, I've actually been to Canada and I saw a
Toronto Argonauts game one time.

Speaker 4 (22:58):
Oh of the Argos, Yeah that's right.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
So yeah, yeah. So it was just funny though, because
I was, you know, the NFL is not really popular
outside of outside of the USA, and I'm just like man,
I always I always got to watch my slang. And
even when I'm talking to other filmmakers from America, I
got to watch my Philly slang that I'll say something
weird and they're like.

Speaker 4 (23:18):
Oh yeah, Dave, you know, no, I'm all over it.
I got you.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
But we know, just to go back to about love hate,
I mean again, you know, selling your first film, that's huge,
and I mean now, I mean because you sold that
in like ten, twenty eleven. I mean, what do you
think about the marketplace now? You know, even tying in
with your new movie, he'll kick about. I mean, what
do you think the market it's like? Now? Do you
think it's more crowded? Because I've had I've heard a

(23:44):
lot of different opinions and perspectives of this. Some people say, yeah,
it's more crowded, but there's more avenues. And then and
then the other the other sort of option is or
the other perspective is the the good movies, no matter what,
are always just going to rise to the top.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
I mean, I hope that that's the case, because you know,
then that means that people will see good films and
that will reward and that we'll you know, teach people
to make good projects. I don't know. I think that
it's really exciting the time that we'll we're in right now,
especially with all the methods of self distribution available. That
is really something that gets me excited about continuing down

(24:23):
this path as an independent filmmaker and beyond. And while
I do think there is a ton of just product
out there, like there's so many shows and films, I
do believe that the good ones rise to the top,
and I think that you have to hold on to
that because I don't know what's the alternative thought on
that that. You know, like a bad movie with great

(24:45):
marketing will be the only thing that really matters one day.
And you know, while that may be the case, I'm
sure we've all heard a million things about a movie
we don't care about. In the independence scene, you have
so much more leeway, I believe, and people aren't as
tough on films, and you know, while you do have
to have a thick skin and everyone is going to
have critics, it's kind of a nice community. You know.

(25:07):
People are always willing to help each other and talk
about their project, and there's so many case studies I
think that's the coolest thing about it. People say, yeah,
there's so many projects out there right now, it's such
a cluttered marketplace. But if you're trying to produce an
independent film, you can look at all of those things
and you can just case study them about what they
did right and what they did wrong. And I'm sure

(25:29):
everyone has, you know, I can't even tell you how
many Kickstarter film projects that I've seen that just never
got to production. It never saw the light of day,
and that's useful information. And then all the ones that
did make it, that's useful information. So, yes, the marketplace
is cluttered, but I think for indie filmmakers that's a
good thing because you can sit back and you can

(25:51):
plot your course more effectively than you ever could before.
And even just in twenty eleven when we sold that film,
we like, if that head of acquisition wasn't based in
our hometown, we never would have been able to drive
there and use our just in person charm. If we
did have it, then we certainly don't have much of
it anymore. But I don't know if we could pull
something like that off again. But like, there were just

(26:13):
so many things that added up, and if one of
them fell through, we wouldn't have had any idea what
to do because we sold directly to the broadcaster. We
did not get a distribution deal, nor did we even
seek one out because we were able to go direct
to the broadcasters. So now, if we were in the
same circumstance now, which I kind of am with this film,

(26:35):
at least you wouldn't be completely screwed if, like the
one thing you know to get your film out there
doesn't work. So it's exciting. There is a lot of noise,
but you can learn from the noise, and that's good too.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yeah, and that's an excellent point, Danny. And you raise
another excellent point too, and that is a lot of
kickstarters that don't actually see production, and that happens. I mean,
the most notorious of that is the in video game industry,
just because of all the things that happened in that industry.
But you know, I've seen film projects that have crowdfunded

(27:07):
and gone nowhere. I mean some are some even famously
have been crowdfunded. And you know, there's some pretty big
people that have joined the crowdfunding spectrum. I won't name names,
but they they've taken some money and not produced anything,
you know. I to me, I'm sorry, Danny.

Speaker 4 (27:25):
Oh, I just said, yikes, Yeah, that's that's a bad Yeah.
You don't like to hear that.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Yeah, I mean it's just I always wonder. I always
wanted to bring one of them on this show and
just be like, you know, what the hell happened? Just
be like what did you really not have a plan?
Did you? Guys? Just like throw this up and somebody
donated like fifty grand, you know. I speaking of which,
I had a friend of mine who started a crowdfunding
campaign and in twenty twelve, he had a mysterious benefactor

(27:51):
dead serious, give him ten thousand dollars out of nowhere, Okay,
just out of nowhere. And I mean he was like
he couldn't figure out who it was, no what he
would do. Yeah, it was just it was out of nowhere,
and he actually was trying to figure out who the
hell that was, and it just he never figured it out.
And I was like, well, I guess you. You know,
you have to make your movie now. And he kind

(28:14):
of like he almost became paralyzed by trying to figure
out who this was.

Speaker 4 (28:18):
It was like, there's your movie.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
He was like more adamant about He's like, he's like,
all right, I gotta figure out who has the resources
to give me ten thousand dollars and not miss it.
And I'm just like, make your movie. Who the hell
cares about it?

Speaker 4 (28:33):
Noll Like, that's a sweet ass problem. I have my friends.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
No, that's I mean, how how would that even sound
if you said that? Oh man, I got this bad problem.
Oh Danny, what's the problem. Oh, some random dude gave
me ten grand to make a film.

Speaker 4 (28:47):
Oh yeah, that's keeping me up at night. I just
can't figure out who's generous and loves me. It's just
driving me insane. So we did crowdfunding for Heel Kick.
I should probably, and I didn't want to do it.
And crowdfunding is something that like, I believe in and
I appreciate it, but it's just something that I personally

(29:08):
don't want to do and I never wanted to do it.
The only reason I did a GoFundMe campaign was because
I was just screwed. But the advantage that I had
was that my film was already shot and I was
able to release a trailer for it. So my whole
GoFundMe approach was, Hey, my movie's done, so there's all
one hundred percent chance that if you donate to this

(29:32):
that it's not going to be lost in the abyss
of you know, indie filmmakers asking for money. And I
released a trailer and everyone could see that it was
complete and that it was on its way, and I
just said, hey, we need to pay, like you guys
want to see it right like we need to pay
for you know, ensuring we need to pay for these
theatrical screenings because we're just forewalling it. And if you
guys give us a little bit of money, the film

(29:53):
can be out right away, and if not, I just
don't really know what to do. So we were able.
We did an aggressive three week campaign and we raised
twelve thousand dollars and have finished off all the funds
that we needed and we'll.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (30:13):
We were so proud of our community and our fans
for helping us with that, but that people sort of
were like, wow, I can't believe you pulled that off
in just a few weeks, and I was, you know,
but like I said, I was a little confused at
first too. I didn't really think it would go that well,
but it's because we had the film in the can

(30:34):
already and people are getting really weary of kickstarters and
go fundmes and products like this because you know, like
we have just discussed, so many of them never see
the light of day. And it's like, ugh, why do
I have to be supportive of something that I know
isn't gonna happen? And you know, so I think people
when they're pursuing these crowdfunding avenues, they just they really

(30:56):
need to have this shit together because it's going to
sour it for other filmmakers. You know. Imagine like knowing
that you could produce something if you raise twenty grand,
but people are just like, oh yeah right, buddy, Like
just like the other three I donated too, that's ruining
it for everyone. So you know, it's a tool, but
it's too accessible. You know. It's just like a phone

(31:16):
with a camera, everyone can shoot a movie. That's why
you got a lot of crappy movies out there. It's
like anyone can start kickstart a campaign for their film.
That's why there's so many graveyards full of dead films.
I never saw the light of day.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah, absolutely, Danny. And you know, I actually knew a
person who would go around from project to project actually
just doing crowdfunding campaigns, and like her timeline was just
nothing but pitching crowdfunding campaigns to people, and people are
like tuning her out, like all you do is promote, promote, promote,
and like you half the time, you never even hear
about the movie ever after she's done promoting it. So

(31:51):
people just started tuning her out left and right, and
it's just like it's that fine sort of ebbing and flowing.
It's it's kind of you know, like in market you
can't just keep marketing to people because they start tuning out,
you know. And that's what she was doing. And that's
why I think. You know a lot of times when
I had a friend of mine who was on Twitter
and he said he followed a bunch of filmmakers and

(32:12):
he said, literally half of my timeline is people crowdfunding projects.
And he goes, it's just to the point where it's
like almost unusable, and I said, you know, it's it's
just the the industry and how it is sometimes personally.
You know, there's different I mean, obviously there's there's a
lot of different ways of crowdfund personally, you know. I mean,
I was guilty that in twenty ten when I was

(32:33):
crowdfunding as well. And I know it does get kind
of I don't want to say the word murky, but
I might be. But you know what I mean, Like
like you were just saying, Danny, it does. Some people
just don't want to ask people for money, or you know,
because it looks like online panhandling or something like that,
you know what I mean. And I've had I've had
people conversations with with with producers or conversations with actors

(32:54):
and stuff, and I said, you know, you guys have
to put up the crowdfunding campaign too, or or whatever.
And people were out out and out and out refuse
because of that. They would say, oh, this is just
online panhandling or whatever else. And I'm like, this is
how you get indie films made. You know, it's funded
by You'd rather be funded by a crowd than funded
by some producer who's going to tell you how to
set up every single shot and how to and have

(33:15):
final edit.

Speaker 4 (33:16):
You know what I mean. Oh it's so true. Yeah,
it's so true. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know
if it'll get better or worse. But you know, now
has never been a more important time to have it
together as a filmmaker and have a plan that you
are able to execute and a worst case scenario that
involves your films still getting made at the end of
the day.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
So, you know, speaking of films getting mad at the
end of the day, you made He'll Kick, which is
about two backyard wrestlers. And I mean, honestly, before we
get into it, cauld you actually just give us a
brief synopsis about the film.

Speaker 4 (33:47):
Sure, yeah, So Heel Kick is about two backyard wrestlers
that decide to finally go pro after ten years of
procrastinating and saying that this is what they're destined to
do in their life. The only problem is that they
are terrible. They lack all out athletic skill required to
do such a thing, and they don't really have any
intelligence or the drive you would need to go after
such a grand dream. So it's a mockumentary, it's a comedy,

(34:10):
and it follows Reggie and Maurice to best friends is
they finally go to professional wrestling training at an academy
called ECCW, which is a real wrestling Academy, and yeah,
that's that's pretty much the black and white of it.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
So, you know, when you actually sat down to actually
start writing this thing, you know what was the impetus
for the for the idea.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
It came from a few different places. One, I was
a huge wrestling fan between the ages of like eight
and thirteen, and then I grew out of it, but
I still stayed interested in the behind the scenes world
of it, and I like the business side of it.
It was really interesting to me. So I would read
wrestler's autobiographies, even though I wasn't absorbing like the product anymore.

(34:55):
But so I always had a great respect for it.
And then all of a sudden, I, you know, I
had all this about it, and they say, right, we
you know, And so that was one of the things
that got me going. But another was that my older
cousin he also loved professional wrestling but wanted to do
it for a living. And he, you know, he's a
really good looking dude, really well spoken. He's like just

(35:17):
pure muscle, six foot three, and he went to train
at the Lance Storm Academy in Calgary, Alberta, a prolific
wrestling town. And that's one of the places that really
ship guys off to the to the w w E
or the FED as they refer to it, if they're
any good. And so my cousin went there and he

(35:37):
quit after just like a week, and I was like, man, I,
you know, I couldn't believe it. This was like what
he'd been talking about his whole life, and it was
so interesting to hear him tell me how it was
different than he thought it would be. But even more
that stuck with me is when he told me about
some of the other kids in the class who just
were delusional about there, you know, like about their basically

(35:59):
their odds of making it in the business. But because
you can just tell when people don't have that drive
or don't have what it takes to do something. And
not like he was puting any anyone down there was
a lot of great talents in the class as well.
But I just couldn't get the hat out of my mind.
The idea of two people who are attempting something that
you know, have no idea and beea, how tough it's
actually going to be. And so that is sort of

(36:20):
where the idea for heal came.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
You know, I like that by the way, the experience
of hearing what he went how he went there and
you know what he found out, Because I think that's
a lot of times, you know, people have an idea
of what something is going to be, and then when
they finally get that, you know, that expectation, and when
then reality finally hits, they're like, this isn't what I
really wanted. You know, I didn't really want to you know,
I thought training was gonna be a little different, or

(36:44):
I thought this experience would be a little better, or
you know. And and you meet people too who have
that x who have that unreal expectations of what this
is going to give to them, or they're you know
what I mean. And you find that in film too,
where you know, somebody thinks are going to make a film,
you know, in the living room with an iPhone and
and when sun dance, you know what I mean, it's
like how many times have you heard that?

Speaker 4 (37:05):
You know?

Speaker 3 (37:05):
And so it's but but it's stuff like that. I mean,
that's why I really am glad you. Yeah, we got
into telling this story because it adds to the to
the movie itself. Because I actually I used to do
backgard wrestling h back here in Philadelphia, and uh, I
those the movie kind of speaks to me now honestly
the endy, I haven't seen the movie yet, and I'm
gonna I'm gonna make a note to actually make sure

(37:25):
I check this movie out because obviously if it's right
in my wheelhouse. But uh, but like you, I fell
out of love with wrestling a long while ago. And
uh but again, it's still fun to you know, see
movies like this about you know, backyard wrestling or or
you know, movies like The Wrestler and stuff like that.
You know, it's kind of cool to to see that,
you know, this stuff that we used to be into
and you know, as long as it's a good story

(37:46):
with it and that you know, it's not all about that,
you know what I mean, It's it's it's all.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
Good, absolutely, ye. And this is kind of the wrestling
movie that I wished was around when I was really
really into wrestling. And it's been cool to screen the
film around North America and have real hardcore wrestling fans
tell me that as well. It means a lot. And
wrestling is such an amazing subculture and you can go
deep down the rabbit hole of learning about it and

(38:12):
exploring what that world is like. And it was just
so fun to get back into it. Not to mention
the fact that I literally had to train because I
play one of the backyard wrestlers in the movies.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
So did you like train by like getting hit with
like light tubes and going through tables days?

Speaker 4 (38:29):
Well, we actually, I mean the film starts with these
guys are more like fans than anything. You know, they're
just classic procrastinators that they pretty much just goof off
all day. And then they're one of the guy who
plays my brother, Matthew Graham. He he challenges us. He says,
I'll pay for your wrestling school, but you have to
go to class every day and you have to improve.

(38:50):
And if you if you can't do it, if you
can't show that your fund you got what it takes,
then you've got to, you know, give up on this
wrestling dream forever and just get a real job and
move on with your life. So that's when they start
going to wrestling school. And so I wanted to show
real progression. So I placed myself and Chris Wilcox, who
plays Maurice, the other backyard wrestler. I placed us in

(39:12):
an actual training program with a real wrestling academy called
ECCW based in Vancouver, and they operate all over the
Pacific Northwest, and some really good talent comes out of there.
I don't know if Yeah, you know Kyle O'Reilly who's
just joined up in NXT the other day and he's
big on an indie scene, and you know, just tons

(39:33):
of great talent go through there and still go through there.
But we were actually training for six months to prepare
for what we do in the film. So yeah, we
didn't tell anyone that we were doing it for a movie.
Only very few people knew because we didn't want to
get treated any differently. So eventually they found out. You
do form, you know, serious bonds with these with the

(39:54):
people in class and the people that are training you.
After a few months, we'll.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Be right back after a word from our sponsor and
now back to the.

Speaker 4 (40:07):
Show, which you should. When you're like dropping each other
on your spine forty times a day, you should probably
get close to those people and make sure they're on
your good side. But yeah, so I actually had to
train to become a professional wrestler for it, and it
was you know, talk about things being different than you
thought they would be, oh, ma'am.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
So, you know, with your experience on Love and Hate,
what were some of the things that you took in
the heel kick? Like, was it about, you know, not
wearing too many hats? You know, was it maybe doing
things a little bit differently in terms of like planning
or even marketing.

Speaker 4 (40:46):
Marketing? Definitely, because the whole world of film marketing changed
from twenty ten to now. So that was just something
that I never had to worry about before. But I
tried to educate myself on that as best as possible.
And our co producer on the film is Greg Miller,
and he's a really big name in the entertainment world,
and he's a YouTube star and really big big in

(41:07):
the video game world, and he just has a huge
love for professional wrestling and he and I became friends
a few years ago, and so he's been spreading the
word about the film as as the co producer getting
it out there. So he's been you know, he's sort
of our human megaphone. I like to refer to him
that way, and he's really helped us get butts in
the seats of these screenings and have people find out
about the film. And arts to wearing a lot of hats.

(41:28):
I still did that. I was still the writer, the lead,
the co director, and the producer on this project, and
I was in the editing room for every frame of
the film. And not to mention the fact that I was,
you know, working out and training at a professional wrestling
academy for six months as well. But I think the
difference was just getting a little bit more money together
so you can pay people enough that make that your

(41:51):
film is their main priority. Because that was the big
biggest takeaway from Love Hate was that when everyone's got
their other job and when you can't afford to pay anyone,
you know, everyone's still committed and they want and they
want to help you out. But when it's their job,
it's a whole it's a different story, right, Like everyone's
going to be there and nothing can take them away
from that place. And you also aren't working on people's

(42:13):
free time. Their free time is when they're off of
your set, and you know, it seems simple, but that
was really the biggest takeaway. If someone was going to
be there more than a couple of days for the shoot,
it was they were going to get paid for it,
and it was going to be their job. And so
with that said, I could wear all those hats, and

(42:34):
you know, there's something to be said for stepping back
and sharing responsibility. But and I certainly did that, even
though it sounds like I wore all these hats. But
you know, if you have a vision for something, you
might as well wear as many hats as you possibly can,
because you know, you don't want to delegate something off
to someone who's not as passionate about the project as
you are, because it's going to lose its voice. So

(42:56):
people are like, man, you did a lot in this movie,
and I was like, yeah, well, you know, I had
a very certain way that I wanted to say things,
So it was just kind of a no brainer for me. Really. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
And see, so what I wanted to ask is how
did you go about getting George as a producer? And also,
like when you talk about you know, having money to
pay people, did you actually you know, go out and
put together like a pitch packet to find different people
and and sort of say like, you know, this is
what we did with Love Hate, and you know, this
is what we could do with this movie if we
had just a little bit more money.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
Exactly Yeah. Basically, I put together at a little plan
and I sent it to pretty much everyone I knew
who I figured could spare like a couple thousand dollars
and they wouldn't, you know, if they never made their
money back, they wouldn't hate me, or they wouldn't have
to sell their home or something like that. So I
put together a package. I told everyone, you know what
I did with Love Hate with extremely little resources, and

(43:49):
and how I could capitalize on another film today with
much greater success. And we never you know, we never
even sold DVDs of our first film. We didn't do
anything else with it after that because it just became
so much work and we wanted to move on to
other projects. So it was pretty easy to convince people
to come on board with this one, especially after they
read the script and they thought it was really funny

(44:10):
and really touching and they liked it, and that was
pretty much it for that. And then in regards to
getting Greg Miller on board, Cooper and I threw a
charity Mario Kart tournament at this pub in Vancouver where
we live, and we flew celebrities from the gaming world out,
so we had cos players come out, We had game developers,

(44:32):
and we got in touch with Greg Miller, who was
just leaving his job at IGN at the time, I
think he was the senior PlayStation editor, and we had
him come out and we formed a friendship there and
we just stayed in touch ever since. And then the
closer we got, the more I realized how He'll Kick
was something that would be like right up his alley,

(44:54):
and I asked if he wanted to come on as
a co producer and help spread the word about the film,
and he said yes, And so that's how we've been
getting the word out ever since.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
And now I see that that that's absolutely fantastic. By
the way, I actually called him George instead of Greg.
I don't know why. I don't know what I forgot
George from. Sorry about that, but uh but uh but
see that that that's stuff like that, you see. Uh.
I always have a saying, you know, your net worth
is your network and being able just to go up
to people and and you know, it's kind of like
what Sam Raimi did, honestly, Danny with with The First

(45:26):
Evil Dead. He went to different people and they each
kicked in a little bit of money, and that's how
he made the film, you know, rather than having one
investor who gives It's kind of like that idea, you know,
do you want one investor to give you a million
dollars or do you want a million investors to give
you one dollar?

Speaker 4 (45:42):
Mm hmm, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
So it's kind of like, you know, there's pros and
cons to each and obviously you know I and honestly,
with doing this podcast, I've heard both and everything in between.
But using that you know, and using your network and
then able to to get somebody like Greg and and
as forming a relationship with him, and you know, just
for everyone listening to Danny, let me I just want
to pick your brain about this really quickly. For somebody

(46:06):
who was thinking about maybe pitching a YouTube star or
pitching somebody else, what are some of the tips you
have for them? I mean, because we've all seen that
mistake where it's like they meet somebody that they want
to work with and the first thing they do is
like you have to help me, please God. Do you
have any like tips or anything on like networking or
even pitching that you you know, you could just give

(46:26):
to the listeners.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
I would say, And I think the people who are
the best at this would tell you the same thing,
and that it's that don't pester people right out of
the gate. You need to form honest to God relationships
and bonds with people and have things that you that
you both like and share interest in, and then if
something is a good fit, then I think you should
have approached them. Otherwise, you know, just don't go don't

(46:51):
go ringing every doorbell that you can find asking for favors.
Like Greg and I. You know, like we flew him
down to Vancouver for that thing, and that was just
a party and we raised like seven thousand dollars for
the for the BC Children's Hospital. It was just a
good time and we stayed in touch after that, and
you know, I just presented him the movie and he
would keep telling me, like anything you need for help

(47:12):
on this thing, like let me know, and you know,
so it wasn't so much me asking him as him offering.
And then I said, you know what, let's make it official.
Let's make you a part of the team. So I think,
just like, look for the signs, like some people will
be interested in jumping on projects with you and others won't.
But in regards to like a YouTube celebrity specifically. That
is a thing that we're seeing a lot more of

(47:34):
in the indie film where. Oh I'm not sure if
you've noticed it, but when I was at the AFM
in Santa Monica two years ago, a lot of people's
pitches like weren't with movie stars anymore. It was with
YouTube stars in the roles and that they were coming
on as producers and stuff like that. And I was like, wow,
I just talked to like six filmmakers and and I

(47:55):
didn't know half the names they were talking about because
they're not actors, they're they're online celebrities. And I think
that's a trend that's going to be going up. So
I would just say for that, remember, at the end
of the day, your film has to be well acted.
And it's seems like funny to say that, but you
know a lot of people forget that. They just try
and cram them as many recognizable names into a project

(48:15):
as possible. But like, just think of all the amazing
talent that have been in a bad movie before. Like,
you're not going to watch a bad movie with your
favorite actor in it. And you know, I'm not saying
that they would be giving a bad performance, but just
things don't always come together, and that performance has to
be there on screen. So I really like the idea
of Greg coming on as a co producer because what

(48:37):
these people do best is build communities and build awareness
about things that they think are cool. And so I
think that the capacity in which Greg has come on
is a great way to involve some of these YouTube celebrities.
Because they're interested in production and film and stuff like that,
you don't necessarily have to, you know, make them the

(48:59):
star of your movie if that's something that you're not
comfortable doing. And I'm not saying that, you know, internet
celebrities aren't great performers, a lot of them are. But
there's more than one way to include someone in your
film to benefit to benefit its longevity.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Yeah, you know, I actually we had Jason Brubaker on
the podcast and he actually was at the forefront of
doing this. What he did was he got a bunch
of YouTuber stars together and he made Camp Dakota for
Netflix and they they it was a full YouTube stars. Well,
I have friends who were you know, you know, they're
probably like ten, fifteen, twenty years older than I am,

(49:35):
and they all have kids and stuff like that and
the kids were like, oh my god, Camp Dakota's conet, like,
what the hell is Camp Dakota? Who the hell are
these people? Why is everyone caring about this movie? And
it's like because it's full YouTube stars and that they
just packed it full of them and it was like
number one on Netflix when it came out. But I
agree with you completely by the way. You have to
make sure that they can because you know, if you do,

(49:58):
like a maybe a five or ten second video.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
and now back to the show.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Hey, you know that's that's really cool. But you know,
imagine stretching that out to an hour and a half.
You know, is that sustainable? Is this person sustainable? Because
you know, like like we were just saying at the
beginning of this interview, if they're not in you know,
if they're not around film or know how this all works,
I mean you end up saying to them, hey, listen,
you used to spend an hour a day making a
video that got a million hits. Well now you're gonna

(50:33):
spend sixteen hours on set and we're gonna be lucky
to break even with this film.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's just a completely different world, You're right. Yeah,
And Brewbaker, Jason Brewbaker is such a smart guy too.
And you see a lot of other people try to
capitalize on that idea, and uh, it doesn't always work out,
But I do think that's going to be a serious
trend in the film industry and that's not going away
anytime soon. So if you're gonna if you if that's

(51:00):
what you're gonna do, if you're gonna include people from
another industry that isn't the film industry and bring them
into your film project, just make sure that you're doing
it in the in the best way possible to service
the film. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
Absolutely, And uh, you know, and we've both seen movies
that that sort of fall into that whole like celebrity
sort of trap. I mean, for instance, I had a
friend of mine. He casted this girl specifically because of
her social media following. And here's the kicker, she refused
to promote the movie to her social media following. So yeah,

(51:32):
and it was like and and finally, begrudgingly, she finally
did and and it got nothing, Like they had no
analytics from it because nobody really followed her to hear
about some movie she was going to be in. They
wanted to see photos of her, you know, in like
a bikini and stuff like that. She wasn't a YouTube star.
I should have I should have predicated everything with that.

(51:53):
But she was like, you know, like a model and
the heat and he was like, oh my god, this
if we get her in there, this is going to
be awesome, and you know, it just all filtered away.
It just it didn't really do much of anything, and
people with lower numbers had much more engage fans. We're like,
we want to see this person as an actor, you know,
we want to see this person in an actual film.

(52:14):
And you know, hey, I said, you know, it does
make sense though, if you think about it. You know,
if you follow if if some guy follows a model online,
does he does he necessarily would he pay to see
her in a movie and when he can get a
photo of her for free.

Speaker 4 (52:27):
You know, yeah, it doesn't translate, It really doesn't. And yeah,
hopefully people will figure out the best way to do it.
I really love my relationship with Greg, like, well, we
are friends as well, but I think this is a
cool project and the way that and the way that
he's helping spread the word about it is great. And
you know his community is into this kind of stuff,
Like there's a lot of pro wrestling fans that follow
him in the kind of funny groups. So it was

(52:49):
just a good fit. Yeah. So if it wasn't, he
wouldn't be involved. But you know who knows.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Yeah, and you know, just to going back to backyard
wrestling in your movie, He'll kick you know, it is
there is a that wrestling industry. They the fans are
very loyal, especially that you know, there's all the hardcore
fans who go to the indie shows every weekend, you know,
just by again, I haven't seen the movie yet, you know,
And I'll be honest, I haven't seen the movie yet,
So I don't I don't want to be one of
those guys Danny who tries to like, you know, fake

(53:16):
it through. Like you ever see those interviews where the
guy clearly hasn't seen the movie, so I ask questions like, well,
how did you do that thing? And it's like what
it's like. But but I I can you know, I
can imagine this is a movie for them, because this
again is a movie I would have wanted to see
in in a way because uh, you know again I
used to be big into wrestling and do backgard wrestling

(53:36):
stuff and do all that crazy nonsense that you look
back on now like, oh my god, how am I
not dead? But uh, you know, it's just that idea
of too if going to these independent shows, and that's
where I imagine the two guys, the two leads are
are two guys you know, aiming to you know, uh
get to the biggest you know, the league in the land.
But they have to you know, train at the local
you know, wrestling school. They have to you know, go

(53:58):
into the t and wrestle and some of these indie
promotions that and again it's probably not what they think it's.

Speaker 4 (54:04):
Going to be, you know.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
And and because it's just like real life, you know,
very true.

Speaker 4 (54:09):
Yeah, I wanted to make a really realistic like, you know,
I don't want to make a movie where two guys
decide to be wrestlers and then boom they're fighting like
Stonekels You've Boston at a Roth at the final scene
or whatever. I want to you know, what happens when
two guys want to be pro wrestler as well, First
you research local wrestling academies and then you see if
they'll take you on, and then you pay your gym fees,
and then if you're good enough, you get put into

(54:29):
the shows, and then you can start traveling around and
doing it with other promotions. You know, Like I just
wanted to really show off what it's actually like. And
you know, and people have told us, and a lot
of people in the indie rerestling scene as well have
told us that it's it's really true to form, but
it's also you know, it's got to be funny too,
So there's a few liberties, but really not too much

(54:51):
at all. And I would leave out the training sections
from the script until I had trained more myself in
real life, because I wanted my actual training to be
reflected in the film. So I was like, I wonder
how this works when you're teaching someone how to do this,
and then when you know, when the when the wrestlers
would teach me how to do that, then I would
put it into the movie.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Yeah, and that's really cool. And imagine too, when you
were talking about to the actors, you know, you probably
were like, hey, guys, you know, you'll probably you have
to go through there, take a few bumps, and they
have to be cool with it, you know what I mean. Like,
so it goes into sort of the whole idea of
paying your dues for your craft, if you.

Speaker 4 (55:27):
Know what I mean. Yeah, definitely. I mean the only
people that really took bumps were besides the actual professional
wrestlers that are in the film, are myself and Chris
will Lcox, who plays the other wrestler. And I was
I don't even think I could have cast this movie
if I had the money to, because I don't know
who would have done this. Like when you see the film,
you'll see there's a few moments in it you're like,

(55:47):
oh my god, that that was pretty harsh. And the
reason that you know it's it's just extra intense for
an audience watching it is because you're comfortable watching a
movie for the first act and you're in, you're into
the performers, and then all of a sudden, they're doing
things that you would see a stuntman do, and that
was sort of where a production value would be. I
figured is that we would be doing all these things ourselves.

(56:11):
And we shot the film for only forty thousand dollars Canadian,
which is another thing that I wanted to bring up
because when people ask me, like, how'd you get all
the money together to shoot a heel kick? And I
was like, well, we you know, it's easy to get
the money together when you're not asking for half a
million dollars or three million dollars, or if you're not
making like a big epic sci fi film. You know, like,
I don't want to write something that I know I

(56:33):
could never afford to get made. But anyway back to
my point, Yeah, as a director, you probably shouldn't ask
any actor to do anything you're not willing to do yourself.
So I've made sure to do all the worse things
myself and share them, of course with my costar career.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
Yeah, and you know that's a good point too, because
you know, people write things that really you know, sometimes
they think they can shoot like a sci fi movie,
one hundred paid sci fi movie for like ten thousand dollar,
and it's just like or there was a person I
knew who was trying to shoot a time traveling period
piece for like five grand, and I said, you're going
to spend five thousand dollars in in in clothes alone, unless,

(57:12):
of course, yeah, unless of course you travel back in
time and you shoot it in a in a state park,
and you also have one character dressed up in like
in historical times, you know, uh regalia, and and then
it's even pushing it like so it has to be
like a very quick, quickly done and shot very very carefully.

(57:32):
So because if you you know, if you have something
in the background like a skyscraper or you know it's
supposed to be a war going on, there's no you know,
there's no army or something, it looks it immediately just
destroys the whole idea what you're trying to do.

Speaker 4 (57:47):
Yeah, you gotta be careful about what you're planning on shooting.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
Yeah. So yeah, it's just that's why again you know,
we always have to have you know, always aim high.
But then I always you know, realize what you have
access to, you know, make those lists of resources and
stuff like that, you know. And so Denny, I wanted
to ask you where could people check out Heel Kick movie.

Speaker 4 (58:08):
So currently it's just we're four walling a little theatrical
tour around North America. So upcoming screenings are gonna be
there's gonna be one in Saskatoon, there's gonna be one
in Portland, and most likely one in Seattle, and those
are going to be over the next six or seven weeks,
and then we were finally going to call it a
day with our theatrical tour and we're going to get

(58:31):
the film out there onto iTunes. We're going to self
distribute it. So we're using just Stribber speaking of a
Jason Brubaker, So that is going to be what we're
rolling out in the next little while here in the meantime. Yeah,
people can follow it at heel Kick Movie on Twitter, Instagram,
and Facebook.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
Yeah, and very cool you're touring with it, and yeah,
Jason brew Baker, awesome guy, I'm so glad that you're
using the Stribber. I'm doll you. I always tell people,
if you really are confused about how to distributer movie movie,
go talk to Jason. Like Jason's so up, like just
straightforward with it too. He goes, look, maybe you can
just put a buy now button on a website, you

(59:08):
know what I mean. And it's just he's not even
though he does work for the Stribber, he's not always like, oh,
you got to go to the Stubber or else, blah
blah blah. He is like one of the straightest and
most honest guys, and he's so knowledgeable, like you said,
and he's a good guy to know.

Speaker 4 (59:23):
Yeah, he's a straight shooter and he's a really good guy.
I would I would recommend indie filmmakers think about using
that platform or other ones like it early, like while
you're writing, because it's it's just gonna make things so
much easier if you know where what your filming should
wind up and what avenues you're gonna take it down
before you even start shooting. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:44):
Absolutely, So, you know, Danny, we've been talking for about
I guess maybe about fifty five minutes now, you know,
is there anything in closing that you have any part,
like tonnel thoughts or anything you want to say that
we get a chance to, or or even just anything
you want to say to put a period at the
end of this whole conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
Yeah. I mean, check out the trailer if it seems
like a movie that interests your follow us along. We're
really active on social media, and we always let people
know where the film is going to be and when
it's going to be out and we'd love for people
to watch it. Really do not have to know anything
about professional wrestling at all to enjoy the film that is,
and that's me quoting hundreds of people who have seen

(01:00:36):
it who have no interest in professional wrestling, and that
was just as important to us as making a film
that hardcore wrestling fans would love as well. So we
think we've struck the balance. Yeah, and you'll definitely get
some blast out of it. So I really hope people
can check it out and hopefully it is out there
in the big wide world of the internet's early fall,

(01:00:56):
maybe like early October, and.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
I'm going to make sure check out the movie when
it comes out, Danny and into the October, because I
do want to check this out again because it is
right up my alleyway. And Danny, where can weeple find
you out online?

Speaker 4 (01:01:09):
Online? They can find me the underscore Danny Mack, pretty
much everywhere. Danny Mack.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
I want to say thank you so much for coming
on and Chatt and Heel Kickmovie and all this good stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
Danny.

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
I wish you the best luck with Heel Kickmovie, and
I look forward to see what we got coming out
next after this is all said and done, all the
desk settles, and you know I want to see what
you come out with next.

Speaker 4 (01:01:30):
Thanks very much. I'm into the show and I think
it's a great tool for filmmakers to listen to, so
I appreciate being on.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
a great job on this episode. If you want to
get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Forward slash four fifty two. Thank you so much for listening. Guys,
as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk
to you soon.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
Screenwriting dot tv.