May 21, 2025 • 8 mins
Why are White Leaders resisting DEI? Paolo Gaudiano shares his perspective, Speaker, Chief Scientist at Aleria, showing how to leverage DEI for success. Author of "Measuring Inclusion" Higher Profits, Happier People, without Gueswork or Backlash, available on Amazon. https://www.aleria.tech/paolo-gaudiano https://www.linkedin.com/in/pgaudiano
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Tom Rio, promoting successful business experts connecting people throughout
the world from my podcast studio in Brazil. Joining us
today from New York Paolo Gaugiano, The White Guy in DEI, author,
speaker and chief scientists at Aleria, showing how to leverage
DEI for success. Why are white leaders resisting DEI?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Tom First of all, thank you for having me on here.
And I would say that question has really two different answers.
One of them is that a lot of the initiatives
that have been promoted in the DI context, especially in
the last few years since the murder of George Floyd,
have been somewhat misguided in that they've really focused a
lot on guilt, on giving people a sense of what
(00:54):
are some of the inequities that are happening. And he
creates a sense of otherness and diversity, of well, diversity,
but in negative way, it makes me feel different from
each other. And unfortunately that's also created somewhat of a
burden for a lot of leaders, and they're resisting to
that when they fail to see tangible results and they
feel that that's actually upsetting some of their employees. You
(01:14):
know a lot of white male employees that creates problems,
and it creates backlash. But I think that there is
a second answer, which is that I think there is
an over estimation of how many white leaders actually resist DEI.
I think that a lot of white leaders, and in fact,
my research has shown that in a way, inclusion is
kind of invisible. So a lot of leaders just don't
(01:36):
really understand the extent to which some of their employees
are being subjected to experiences that have a negative impact
on their ability to work. And so what ends up
happening is that the white leaders are the ones that
tend to be the most included, and thus the ones
that are the least likely to understand exclusion are often
just not really aware of the gravity of the situation
and how it impacts their organization.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
And I think that so much of DII has.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Focused on statistical data overall, but it kind of fails
or neglects to show a specific leader how their company
is impacted by DEI. So I would argue that, yes,
there are some people that are against or resisting DEI,
but I would also argue that there are a lot
that given the right tools, the right metrics, the right outcomes,
we're more than happy to do the right thing. They
just don't know what to do and they don't have
(02:19):
the right data.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well two that to the word metrics. I say, you
have a book which is a success, and it's called
Measuring Inclusion, So you're actually coming out with numbers there.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Right, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
And I think that was a big, big breakthrough that
actually led me to decide to write this book was
the realization that in the world of DEI, the vast
majority of data has always focused on diversity alone. So
we talked about DEI, but we only really measure diversity
or representation, how many of these, how many of those,
et cetera. What I realized through my research is that
knowing that there are let's say, ten percent African Americans
(02:55):
in a US company or you know, thirty percent women
in a European company, is not as relevant as understanding
how those people are treated within the organization and how
that impacts their ability to succeed, to create revenues for
the organization, and their desire to stay in the organization.
And I found a way of measuring inclusion by effectively
measuring these specific experiences, not the feelings of inclusion, but
(03:19):
the experiences that people have as a result of their
identity and in some cases even when they don't realize
because of their identity. And by quantifying that, we now
have an additional set of data that gives us a
lot more clarity about what exactly is happening and what
can be done about it.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Now that's really needed because we're speaking to you know,
the world's round and global and it's diverse, and we
can't get around that. And many corporations today our global
have become and then some hope to be but to
that point, Finland, Iceland, New Zealand, Iowa, they're all different.
(03:56):
And you know, we have organizations that are working around
the world. So even the the DEI aspect reaches employees
in different parts of the same corporation in a different way.
But the bottom line comes together, is the bottom line? Right?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, And you're absolutely you're spot on and in fact,
one of the great benefits that we've seen of measuring inclusion,
and we've now worked with a few multinational companies where
we measured inclusion across the globe. And what you realize
is that diversity is a very relative concept. If you
are black in America, that's in North America, that's very
different than being black in Brazil or being black in Africa.
(04:31):
And when you talk about inclusion and the way that
we measure it again is by asking for experiences. And
then we have these categories like is it about work
life balance? Is it about compensation and benefits? And those
concepts are universal. So even though we see very different data,
let's say, in Asia Pacific, than we do in Europe
or North America or Africa, relatively speaking, we can get
(04:52):
very very consistent results by asking people about inclusion because
those are universal concepts. You know, being able to balance
your personal life for your work life, or being able
to get compensated for the work that you do are
universal concepts that do not depend on the particular identity
and your social cultural context.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
And again for our listeners, and we're talking about global concepts.
And back to your book, The Measured Inclusion the World.
Where can the world find it?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
The book is actually available on Amazon and pretty much
any online retailer will actually sell the book Measuring Inclusion.
I believe it's the only one by that title. The
subtitle is higher profits and Happier people with no guest
work or backlash, and it kind of tells you all
about the content of the book.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Repeat that place.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
So it's higher profits and happier people without guest work
or backlash.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Aha, And everybody's just looking at the backlash recently.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right, absolutely, And I felt very strongly when we were
designing the subtitle with my publisher, we felt very strongly
that we wanted to talk about profits first, because ultimately
we're trying to convince business.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Right, if you don't, don't talk about nobody reads the book.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So exactly exactly so, but anyway, so Amazon or any
other online bookseller will you'll find that book very good.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Well. Also, I say you're a speaker, so you don't
have the book, you're out talking about it.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And I've been fortunate that I've given two TEDx talks,
and one of them was actually selected by the TED
organization to be featured as a main TED talk. So
if you go to ted dot com and you look
up my last name Gaudiano g A U D I
A n O, you will find a TED talk that
I gave about a year ago on this very topic.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Well, very good. Well, keep talking, keep writing, keep podcasting
and listening. So where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Probably the best place is my website Alayria dot tech,
and that's spelled A l e r I A dot
t e c h or on LinkedIn. If you go
to LinkedIn, my profile name is p Gaudiano P g
A U d A n O and I'm the only
(07:03):
Paolo Galiano as far as I know on LinkedIn, so
I should be pretty easy to find.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Well.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And also I could say, you're only the white guy
in DEI, so you're the guy.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, I appreciate that there are other white men that
are working in DII. I think my work is unique,
probably a little bit less for that and more because
of the quantitative angle and the way that we measure inclusion.
But I do take a lot of pride in being
a white person and realizing that I need to learn
how to be part of the solution instead of part.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Of the problem.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
And I like to think that my work is really
significantly having a significant impact, and I hope that it
will continue to do so in spite of the current
political climate.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Well, and again, congratulations for what you're doing and keep doing.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Okay, thank you, Tom, really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Okay, again, for our listeners, it is Paulo Galgiano p
Ao l O the last name g Au.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
D I A n O.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
You'll find them on LinkedIn and his site which is
Alaria dot Tech. Alaria a l e r I a
dot tech cafe networkings. BRAT was by focus in my
market intelligence and agricultural market research specialist in Brazil. More
information at f O, c U, s m I dot com,
(08:17):
Talk to Town, Talk to the World. Thanks for listening.
Until the next time here at Cafe and Networking podcast
I'm Tom Rio, promoting successful business experts connecting people throughout
the world from my podcast studio in Brazil. Joining us
today from New York Paolo Gaugiano, The White Guy in DEI, author,
speaker and chief scientists at Aleria, showing how to leverage
DEI for success. Why are white leaders resisting DEI?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Tom First of all, thank you for having me on here.
And I would say that question has really two different answers.
One of them is that a lot of the initiatives
that have been promoted in the DI context, especially in
the last few years since the murder of George Floyd,
have been somewhat misguided in that they've really focused a
lot on guilt, on giving people a sense of what
(00:54):
are some of the inequities that are happening. And he
creates a sense of otherness and diversity, of well, diversity,
but in negative way, it makes me feel different from
each other. And unfortunately that's also created somewhat of a
burden for a lot of leaders, and they're resisting to
that when they fail to see tangible results and they
feel that that's actually upsetting some of their employees. You
(01:14):
know a lot of white male employees that creates problems,
and it creates backlash. But I think that there is
a second answer, which is that I think there is
an over estimation of how many white leaders actually resist DEI.
I think that a lot of white leaders, and in fact,
my research has shown that in a way, inclusion is
kind of invisible. So a lot of leaders just don't
(01:36):
really understand the extent to which some of their employees
are being subjected to experiences that have a negative impact
on their ability to work. And so what ends up
happening is that the white leaders are the ones that
tend to be the most included, and thus the ones
that are the least likely to understand exclusion are often
just not really aware of the gravity of the situation
and how it impacts their organization.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
And I think that so much of DII has.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Focused on statistical data overall, but it kind of fails
or neglects to show a specific leader how their company
is impacted by DEI. So I would argue that, yes,
there are some people that are against or resisting DEI,
but I would also argue that there are a lot
that given the right tools, the right metrics, the right outcomes,
we're more than happy to do the right thing. They
just don't know what to do and they don't have
(02:19):
the right data.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well two that to the word metrics. I say, you
have a book which is a success, and it's called
Measuring Inclusion, So you're actually coming out with numbers there.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Right, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
And I think that was a big, big breakthrough that
actually led me to decide to write this book was
the realization that in the world of DEI, the vast
majority of data has always focused on diversity alone. So
we talked about DEI, but we only really measure diversity
or representation, how many of these, how many of those,
et cetera. What I realized through my research is that
knowing that there are let's say, ten percent African Americans
(02:55):
in a US company or you know, thirty percent women
in a European company, is not as relevant as understanding
how those people are treated within the organization and how
that impacts their ability to succeed, to create revenues for
the organization, and their desire to stay in the organization.
And I found a way of measuring inclusion by effectively
measuring these specific experiences, not the feelings of inclusion, but
(03:19):
the experiences that people have as a result of their
identity and in some cases even when they don't realize
because of their identity. And by quantifying that, we now
have an additional set of data that gives us a
lot more clarity about what exactly is happening and what
can be done about it.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Now that's really needed because we're speaking to you know,
the world's round and global and it's diverse, and we
can't get around that. And many corporations today our global
have become and then some hope to be but to
that point, Finland, Iceland, New Zealand, Iowa, they're all different.
(03:56):
And you know, we have organizations that are working around
the world. So even the the DEI aspect reaches employees
in different parts of the same corporation in a different way.
But the bottom line comes together, is the bottom line? Right?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, And you're absolutely you're spot on and in fact,
one of the great benefits that we've seen of measuring inclusion,
and we've now worked with a few multinational companies where
we measured inclusion across the globe. And what you realize
is that diversity is a very relative concept. If you
are black in America, that's in North America, that's very
different than being black in Brazil or being black in Africa.
(04:31):
And when you talk about inclusion and the way that
we measure it again is by asking for experiences. And
then we have these categories like is it about work
life balance? Is it about compensation and benefits? And those
concepts are universal. So even though we see very different data,
let's say, in Asia Pacific, than we do in Europe
or North America or Africa, relatively speaking, we can get
(04:52):
very very consistent results by asking people about inclusion because
those are universal concepts. You know, being able to balance
your personal life for your work life, or being able
to get compensated for the work that you do are
universal concepts that do not depend on the particular identity
and your social cultural context.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
And again for our listeners, and we're talking about global concepts.
And back to your book, The Measured Inclusion the World.
Where can the world find it?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
The book is actually available on Amazon and pretty much
any online retailer will actually sell the book Measuring Inclusion.
I believe it's the only one by that title. The
subtitle is higher profits and Happier people with no guest
work or backlash, and it kind of tells you all
about the content of the book.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Repeat that place.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
So it's higher profits and happier people without guest work
or backlash.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Aha, And everybody's just looking at the backlash recently.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Right, absolutely, And I felt very strongly when we were
designing the subtitle with my publisher, we felt very strongly
that we wanted to talk about profits first, because ultimately
we're trying to convince business.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Right, if you don't, don't talk about nobody reads the book.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So exactly exactly so, but anyway, so Amazon or any
other online bookseller will you'll find that book very good.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Well. Also, I say you're a speaker, so you don't
have the book, you're out talking about it.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And I've been fortunate that I've given two TEDx talks,
and one of them was actually selected by the TED
organization to be featured as a main TED talk. So
if you go to ted dot com and you look
up my last name Gaudiano g A U D I
A n O, you will find a TED talk that
I gave about a year ago on this very topic.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Well, very good. Well, keep talking, keep writing, keep podcasting
and listening. So where can our listeners find you?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Probably the best place is my website Alayria dot tech,
and that's spelled A l e r I A dot
t e c h or on LinkedIn. If you go
to LinkedIn, my profile name is p Gaudiano P g
A U d A n O and I'm the only
(07:03):
Paolo Galiano as far as I know on LinkedIn, so
I should be pretty easy to find.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Well.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And also I could say, you're only the white guy
in DEI, so you're the guy.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, I appreciate that there are other white men that
are working in DII. I think my work is unique,
probably a little bit less for that and more because
of the quantitative angle and the way that we measure inclusion.
But I do take a lot of pride in being
a white person and realizing that I need to learn
how to be part of the solution instead of part.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Of the problem.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
And I like to think that my work is really
significantly having a significant impact, and I hope that it
will continue to do so in spite of the current
political climate.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Well, and again, congratulations for what you're doing and keep doing.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Okay, thank you, Tom, really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Okay, again, for our listeners, it is Paulo Galgiano p
Ao l O the last name g Au.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
D I A n O.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
You'll find them on LinkedIn and his site which is
Alaria dot Tech. Alaria a l e r I a
dot tech cafe networkings. BRAT was by focus in my
market intelligence and agricultural market research specialist in Brazil. More
information at f O, c U, s m I dot com,
(08:17):
Talk to Town, Talk to the World. Thanks for listening.
Until the next time here at Cafe and Networking podcast
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