Calling All Creatures Presents Bison Dialogues

New Episode Alert!

On this episode of Calling All Creatures, I chat with Dr. Philip Urso, Assistant Professor of Bison Studies at South Dakota State University, about one of North America’s most iconic animals — the bison!

We talk about:
What makes bison so unique and vital to healthy grasslands
How new research is helping herds stay strong and resilient
The comeback story of a species once nearly lost
And how SDSU is leading the way with the first-ever Bison Studies program!

It’s a fascinating look at how science and conservation are keeping the spirit of the plains alive.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to calling our Creatures. Tonight.
We have really cool podcast. We're talking about one of
the bigger animals that we have out there in the
Americas and stuff that would be bison's And so I

(00:22):
have Professor Philip Ursall on the podcast with me tonight.
He is the assistant professor of Bison Studies South Dakota
State University, and we're going to have some bison dialogues.
So hopefully you guys are all set to listen in
and learn some interesting things about bison tonight. So Professor Arsol,

(00:45):
thank you so much for being on the podcast tonight
and talking to me about bison and helping us to
learn more about him.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
You bet, I'm glad to do it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
So first off, how did you even get into studying bison?
I mean, was it something that you've always wanted to
do or thought about or did the bison just kind
of pull you in once you started working with them.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Oh, I think more of the latter officially. So, I
actually grew up in Texas on a CALCAF operation and
knew I was going to stay and loved beef cattle, right.
I really was committed to that through all of my education,
and I studied feed a lot of nutrition and beef
cattle nutrition through my PhD program. Afterwards, I transitioned into

(01:35):
a role at my alma mater where I went to
school in Southeast Texas, and which was in servid nutrition
actually and teaching about servids and different deer species across
the states and across the country, and I really loved it.
I got to a point where I needed to grow
a little bit academically and do a little bit more

(01:56):
research than what my appointment was. And I was kind
of poking around and mutual a friend of mine who
had a colleague had reached out to me and said,
there's a position open at STSU which is specific to bison.
That role was, and I said, you know, I kind
of bridged the gap a little bit, you know, having

(02:18):
a lot of experience with beef cattle, having a lot
of experience with deer and bison, you know, kind of
falls somewhere in the middle of that realm. You know,
they're not true w they are true wildlife, but we're
treating them more and more like domestic animals every day, right,
But they're not quite beef cattle, not even close. Really,

(02:43):
and it was a really logical fit. The school and
the committee really felt the same way I like to think,
and they offered me the position. I started my role
with STSU in twenty twenty three, late twenty twenty three
and have just fallen in love with it ever since.

(03:04):
And I really firmly believe that this is truly a
great industry to be in. Truly great people that I
work with, and we all work with one of the
most majestic and wonderful animals on.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
The continent, right, yeah, exactly, And this is funny, but well, Natt, Besides,
you know, we've seeing the stories and stuff about the
crazy people that are, you know, messing with Bison and
Yellowstone and getting gourd because I don't even understand where
the brain or the mindset is for that. But anyway,
I watch a show, probably not I don't know how

(03:38):
many people I like to watch. I'm strange. I like
to watch Maltin Men.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
That's that's a good show.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
It is a good show, and I mean it helps
you learn a lot of different things, and it's very
interesting to me to learn about these guys and what
they do out there and how they survive. And one
of the guys on the show. He's been working for
Bison Rancher, and I think he's actually got his own
little uh uh. I don't know it heard, I guess

(04:09):
going now. So yeah, anyway, so it's kind of interesting that,
you know, I kind of learned a little bit on
Mountain Men about bison. So yeah, it's kind of yeah exactly.
I mean, you know, so, so why don't you tell
us a little bit more about what you're actually doing
at South Dakota State. I mean, you know, Assistant Professor

(04:31):
of Bison Studies is kind of a cool title.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
I like to think it's very cool. I am not
the first person to have that title. I have a
wonderful colleague by the name of doctor Jeff Martin, and
he works in the Department of Natural Resources, and so
what's different about him and me is we both look
at bison and appreciate bison really similarly, but he has

(04:59):
housed the different department, whereas I'm over in the Department
of Animal Science, and so our research is a little
tailored to each of us in that regard. But at
the same time, him and I both do are really
I know he does, and I like to think that
I do as well, but he does a really great
job of asking the producers, you know, what kind of

(05:20):
research do you really want to see from us at SDSU,
and how do we do it? So and I do
the same thing, and that's kind of how I gotten
I've gotten to my agenda. My specialty is specifically within nutrition, right,
so we've got all nutrition, ruminant nutrition, if you will.

(05:42):
And when I talk to producers, most of the time,
I hear questions about nutrition, nutrition, nutrition, and that's kind
of what's driving my research agenda, specifically mineral nutrition. And
so that's really our big efforts right now is going
through conducting strategic censuses on different populations to see what

(06:08):
is the circulating mineral of these animals and how can
we as managers of them better provide so that they
are thriving and living their best life. That takes officially
about sixty percent of my time. The remaining percentage I

(06:28):
dedicate to teaching, and that leads me into winning. One
of the big agendas that was kind of tasked upon
me upon hiring was developing and starting a full on
bison curriculum and nice yeah, and it was a process,
don't get me wrong, but a very positive one, a

(06:51):
long process for the positive one, and a very smooth
one at that too. The State of South Dakota and
South Dakota State is very enthusias biastically supportive of the
bison curriculum because we have really and truly been working
with bison in some capacity for quite some time. It

(07:12):
started with a researcher, doctor ben will Saint Pierre, who
really wanted to characterize the bison rumen and so he
started to crack open that web of research, if you will, right,
and it started to catch fire. After that, more and
more professors and more and more researchers started to jump

(07:34):
on and want to help the producer and help the animal.
And it led us to here where we founded the
Center of Excellence of Bison Studies at South Dakota State University.
I say we as the royal we I was not
hired at that time, but that's got started around twenty
twenty one and it's been going strong as a major

(07:58):
kind of connecting point, if you will, between the producers,
the research and academia within the bison world. Cool.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
So now is that because I was going to ask
you about there was a minor and certificate program that
South Dakota had launched. Is that the program.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yes, it is good. We're successful in getting that program
approved approved by our Board of Regents as of May
twenty five, and as of this fall, we have a handful,
an overwhelming amount, but a handful of students that are
truly bison minors and seeking a bison certificate. Right. So

(08:40):
I'm very exciting, And I've talked to a handful of
students that have told me too specifically if you're going
to quote, if you're going to cite me here, right,
but two that have told me directly that they chose
Southakota State specifically because of the bison minor, which is
very EXAs.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, so what are just in general, I mean, I
don't want to go through like a whole curriculum or anything,
but what are some of the kinds of things that
the students are going to get to learn?

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Sure? Well, there's two bison specific courses at STSU that
I teach, Introduction Devison Management and Advanced Bison Production and Introduction.
We focus really heavily on like the theory of managing
bison in terms of you know, kids need to understand

(09:35):
what a rotational grazing pattern is, and how the theory
of nutrition and how the theory of bison welfare and
body conditioning scores work. And that's really what we cover
in Intro and Advanced. By some production, it really takes
much more of a production scope that makes sense. So

(09:57):
they're really focusing on, excuse me, if they're going to
do and operate a bison enterprise, whether that be a
private enterprise, whether that be a with a tribal nation,
whether that be at a park or zoo or anything
like that, you need to I ask them to walk

(10:22):
through all of the steps, so budgets, animal management, pasture management,
grazing management, all of these things that they need to
understand for them to really go out into the field
directly and have what's as close to real world experience
as we can get within academia. I think on top

(10:43):
of that with the Advanced class, we partner and have
a really great partnership with Customer State Park in which
we take students out to the roundup in which they
do every imaginable job. They are collecting research samples, they
are going through the normal, every the yearly process of
working animals, where that may just be working gates or

(11:07):
reading brands or putting in ear tags and things like
that that are conducive to the park's success. And so
that was a really big hit that we went. This
is our second year that we've gone so far. Last
week was actually the customer roundup, and we should have
an article, a really nice piece coming out here pretty
soon from our marketing department that highlights that trip as well. Yeah,

(11:31):
on top of those things, we also have a pretty
large focus on the range management side of things. So
we've worked in quite a number of range courses that
are taught over in our Department of Natural Resources. Because
if you're going to really manage bison, you really have
to understand the range land itself, right, because the two

(11:54):
really work so seamlessly together. To understand one is to
understand both, right, right.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
I think that goes hand in hand with like any
kind of probably grazing animal you have, you know, you
need to understand. Yeah. So, so, for let say, for
those out there, I guess that are interested in doing
any kind of bison studies, it sounds like SDS used

(12:26):
the place that they probably want to go to because
it sounds like you guys have quite the program that
you've got started out there for this, So that's really
that's really awesome that you guys are able to do that.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, and I appreciate that. You know, I'm a little biased,
but I really believe that to be true. Well.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, and like you said, I mean a lot of
some people are starting to go, I mean more towards
the bison herds and instead of cattle and things like that,
So you know, you do need to if you're going
to go that route, then it's always good to learn
about them.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
So with that being said, for the folks out there
who might not know much about bison other than of
course seeing them and say Yellowstone on TV or on
a flag or something, what makes bison so special or
I guess different from actually just regular cattle.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
Oh my gosh, There's so much we can talk about here,
and I love it. Yeah. So comparatively, bison are very
unique to than cattle because bison really and truly evolved.

(13:42):
Evolution coincided a lot with the evolution of North America itself, right,
So the pressures, the prairies, the typicals, this bawling grasslands
that covered this country were ideal for bison. They were
really and truly the most effective keystone species in that

(14:04):
role in that specific situation, right, And what is a
little brief history lesson, right, So, by in mid to
early eighteen hundreds, there were estimated depending on who you ask,

(14:25):
there was an estimated anywhere between thirty to sixty million
bison across North America, and by nineteen hundred there were
again depending on who you asked, as low as six
hundred left on earth. And so they really went through

(14:46):
a major hardship at the hands of, you know, malicious
players that were using that as a way to kind
of have ulterior motives with controlling indigenous populations and things
like that, which is obviously terrible. But at the same time,
the bison posts this systematic eradication, we're able to and

(15:14):
are currently bouncing back. So with that, I think it
really paints a really beautiful picture of the resilience of
people in North America, right that we are resilient and
just like the national mammal is right, So being able

(15:34):
to bounce back and come back as strong as ever
and hopefully continuing on this upward trend of getting back
on the landscape and restoring the American prairie is really
what bison is all about. Because of their evolutionary history,
they really are regenerative to the prairie. If you put
out a beef animal on grassland, right, they're going to

(15:58):
change the grassland and the specific way good bad are
and different. They're going to change it, right, And that
may lead us down into paths where there may not
be native species. There may be excess native species, right,
and there may be monocultures, there may be all kinds
of different things that the animal can do. But with bison,
because they evolved with the prairie, they really promote biodiversity.

(16:24):
Biodiversity as well as just healthy natural grasslands and native
grasslands at that, So a really unique role that they
play in such that they fit and work so well
on the prairie. Right. If we get into the minutia

(16:45):
of dividing and determining the difference between beef and bison, obviously,
if you're going to work with bison, you're going to
have vastly different facilities. You're going to have different costs,
different things that you're working with in terms of management styles,
in terms of grazing styles and things like that. Because

(17:06):
they do behave in a pasture pretty different than beef. Surprisingly,
there is a lot of data also that shows that bison.
If you're an everyday consumer, right and you're not going
to go start a bison ranch, you can still opt
to get bison, and bison is healthier quote unquote healthier

(17:30):
than beef, right because there is significantly less bat present.
Bison is also significantly higher in iron as well as
things like vitamin B are B vitamins, which is an
inherently positive thing. So you still get your red meat,
your protein fix, but at the same time, you're still
getting all these benefits from not eating super fatty beef.

(17:53):
And I say that fully understanding that I still am
a part of the beef industry and do love a
good fatty steak, right right. So I'm not ever going
to bash the beef industry in that regard because they
have a product, and the product is good, very good.
But it's a good alternative product, and I think more

(18:15):
people should work into their their diets them.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Right right. I think, I don't know, it's just me,
I don't I've tried it. I just didn't really care
for it all that well. But I mean a lot
of people I know really like it, So.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Well, how'd you try it? That's the question.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
I think the one time I tried it it was
as like hamburger. And now, yeah, I think i'd actually
had tried it as a stew meat and stew before.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Okay, I've had poor experiences and I've had great experiences, right,
And I can say the same for beef. I can
say the same for pork. I can say the same
for lamb. I think the best bison that you can
cook is the bison that you cook at home, right, right,
And I think that's true with a steak, with a taco,

(19:09):
with anything, because you know, and you do your research
and know how to cook it, the temperatures to get
to the way that you like to cook it, the
seasonings that you like. That's the best way to eat it.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Right, yeah, right, Yeah, Like I said, a lot of
people I know really like it. They enjoy eating it.
So a friend of ours had actually I think he
took it and whant I say. He took his daughter
and they went up and they did a hunt. So
he yeah, he came back with some Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Good.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
And I'm glad you kind of touched on, you know how,
the role that bison also play in helping to keep
our grasslands healthy, because I was actually going to ask
you about that, So I'm glad you touched on that
as well to let people know, you know, they are
help you know, that's the thing people don't realize it.
Like many animals, they are there's a reason that they're here.

(20:00):
They are helping the ecosystem. You know, it's pretty much
with anything that's out there. That's that's the reason they
are here on this earth. Everything plays a part, So
it does.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, I totally agree, and I really appreciate the role
that everything plays, from bison down to the prairie dogs
that they work with, to the dung beeles that they support,
to the plant communities that they spread through their wallows
and through their capes. You know, there's a lot of
studies done that show that they can distribute up to

(20:37):
millions of seed heads every year based on just the
plants attaching the seed heads, attaching to their cape and
then traveling with them right and then falling off whenever
they need whenever they fall off, and then they spread

(20:57):
that diverse plant community in a really positive way.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Right right, Well, yeah, I mean you would you would
think that people, you know, you would realize that with
those big like the shaggy capes and stuff, when they're
passing by plants and stuff, obviously you're gonna attract some
of the seeds and stuff and carry them with them,
just like other animals do as well. So I'm sure

(21:22):
their capes probably catch a little bit more though with
the I think they're a little more dense, you know.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
So, Oh sure, I encourage encourage you and anyone listening
that go look at a picture, like next time you
see bison. A perk of working with bison is there
are countless incredible photos available, right because people love taking
pictures of bison. Yeah, but next time you see one,

(21:48):
take a look and see how many seedheads you can
pop you can see and it'll be more than a handful,
that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, Okay, it's just one of those little things you
never notice until you're paying attention, right.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Yeah, right, So, just for kind of a fun moment,
now that you've kind of mentioned that little fun tidbit,
what is one of maybe your favorite or most surprising
bison facts that you know, if you tell somebody about it,
they just kind of look at you, like, get the
heck out of here, no way.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Oh gosh. I struggled with this one. I've been thinking
because I've been asked this before, and I never really
have a good one because there's so many good things
to think about. I think what interested me the most
when I started working with bison was that they go
through essentially what we kind of anecdotally refer to it

(22:46):
as a standing hibernation. And so during the winter, you know, granted,
if we think about their evolutionary history, how they evolved
with this a vastly different climate, a much colder climate.
During the winter, there is very little grass and food
to be had, right, and so they've actually developed the

(23:07):
ability to go through this quote unquote hibernation where they
still forged and they're still getting the food that they need,
but it's at a much much lower level, and they'll
lose up to ten percent of their moneyweight. They'll do
that and still be in the heat of pregnancy and

(23:29):
still do quite well with that calf, which is impressive.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah, it is. Wow.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
That is so yeah, And there you go. There's one
of those weird facts that.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
I mean.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Yeah, that's why I said I love doing this podcast
because I've learned so many weird, different things about different animals.
I mean, well, and then I read and I watch.
You know, I've had a couple of people on that
did some of the one was a produce some of
the Disney and the National Geographic stuff, and so of course,
you know number one in researching to talk to them

(24:06):
and other things. I'm watching some of the stuff that
they produced. I'm learning all this stuff, Like I different
things about octopus that I never OCTOPI. I guess it's OCTOPI.
Oh yeah, I mean that I didn't know, you know,
all sorts of crazy things. It's it's amazing the things
that you will learn when you start doing these kinds
of things. So I just love it. So that's there.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
You go.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
There's one of those Okay, get out here.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah it's cool. Yeah, it's really fascinating because they still
they're still so married to that. I mean, even if
you put them in a confinement situation where they have
to consume feed, they still will go through that pattern.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
That's cool.

Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, it is cool. I guess one one that I watched,
and it's funny because it's on one of the newer
ones that Peacock just put out with Tom Hanks narrating them,
and they were talking the segment on one of these
lizards in one of the I think South American forests,
and it literally it's up in this tree and it's like,

(25:14):
I think, looking for mead or whatever, and it like
launches out of this tree and it uses its tail
as a little rudder as it's like flying towards the
ground and it just kind of steers itself around and
it lands in these like ferns, and I'm just like,
oh wow, that's like a true Assassin screen type jump there.
Really anyway, cool little tidbit you get to learn.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
I'm here for it.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yeah, okay, So let's learn a little bit more about
bison nutrition. So you've been doing research on bis nutrition
and as you said, mineral needs. So you've been doing
it awesome in different parts of the country. So what
are some of the things you've been finding out doing that.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Oh? Well, so a couple of different things. So, first
of all, we were able to do a couple of projects. First,
we partnered again, we had that partnership with Custer State
Park that we have great results from in which we
really were able to kind of compare Custer State Park

(26:21):
with ranches that existed east of the Mississippi River, because
those ranches are very stereotypical smaller. They're smaller than your
big customers, your big yellowstones and things like that, but
those people still really truly care and love about bison
the same way that anyone would, which is great. So

(26:46):
our big first year effort was conducting that strategic census
of all the producers that would have us to go
out to these ranches and draw blood samples, fecal samples,
all of the things that we need to really determine
like a circulating level, which is kind of the baseline
for what we want to do in the future, which

(27:07):
is eventually to develop a pretty rigid guideline for what
minerals or other nutrients that bison need day to day.
Because if you're going to raise them, and if you're
going to raise them in a confinement operation, you can
still do that certainly and have a deep love for

(27:29):
these animals, which a lot of these, if not all
of these producers do, but you're going to need to
feed them right right and on top of that, even
going thinking about zoos and other conservation herbs. They're obviously
not roaming the prairie like they would in the New

(27:50):
York Zoo or the washing the National Zoo or anything
like that. So they're going to need feed, and so
they need to have a pretty rigid This is how
much head per day that they need, for example, And
that's kind of where this census was born to see
if there's any kind of glaring differences between first of all,

(28:12):
between beef and bison, which we're kind of seeing a
little bit. They do behave and hold on to minerals
a little bit differently than beef do, and I think
the running hypothesis here is that it's related to that
standing hibernation, right, they know they're going to be deficient
in the winter months, and so they hold on. They're

(28:32):
a little bit more stingy with some of the things
that they need, like copper, manganese and some other minerals
as well. We were able to compare beef to bison
from previous data. We didn't do a side by side study,
but beef is so well documented that we were making

(28:53):
leaps and bounds from those previous studies as well. If
that makes sense. Yeah, and now we're moving towards we've
completed the census. That census is ongoing, and so any
ranch that we collect or work with gets put into

(29:14):
the running bank of census data SENSI data. But yeah,
it really is ever growing, ever present, and then eventually
that's going to give us a really good kind of
range of Okay, if you're this is the nationwide average

(29:34):
in this region or region wide average, if you send
me samples or you send your veterinary diagnostic lab samples
and they fall outside of this range, then you probably
should look at it. And that's kind of where we're
hoping to go. First of all, to have that rigid requirement,

(29:56):
but then also to be able to give data to
those veterinarian labs across the country via publication so that
they can have the tools necessary to inform their local
bison producers. Right, so if unfortunately, if someone if something dies,
they can know whether or not it was related to

(30:17):
a deficiency or not. Yeah, that's really nutrition, the nutrition
area that I'm focusing on. There's also we're really excited
about some recent funding that we were awarded that is
really going to focus on the energy requirements. So similar

(30:40):
to minerals, thanks to USCA, NIFA, we were able to
start designing an experiment in which we are going to
really elucidate the energy requirements of bison for the same reason, right,
we need to know and producers need to know exactly

(31:01):
at what levels to feed various energy feed stuffs, be
that forage or grain or what have you, to main
sure that they're living in this ideal where they should
be their happiest body conditions score possible.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
Okay, Yeah, well it sounds like you guys are locking
down their nutrition and mineral needs, which is great. So
in talking about those things, let's kind of flip the
coin a little bit and let's talk about some of
the bigger health issues that bison are facing today and

(31:42):
how you know, people like yourself and your team are
kind of working to tackle those challenges.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yes, definitely. So Doctor Martin is wonderful in the sense
that heat has organized a number of different projects. He
is a much more successful grant writer than me, and
he is doing tremendous work in the sense that, like,
for example, he leads the Micoplasma Task Force Micoplasma Bobis

(32:14):
task Force. Micoplasma bobis is a disease that can cross
beef and bison really relatively easily. Oh wow. And in
beef it's not necessarily as much of a concern because
of the biology of beef right, it needs to have
some type of primary acting force for it to really

(32:36):
create an infection and hurt the animal, to like or
even kill the animal. But with bison, it is that
primary actor. And as a result, if your hurt is
positive for Micoplasma bobas, you can expect a twenty to
thirty percent death loss, which is terrible. And so doctor

(32:56):
Martin leads that group. I'm on that task force as
well long as long along with a number of really
wonderful scientists, researchers, industry professionals that really are monitoring the
microplasma outbreaks. We're conducting research within our own kind of
respective labs about how we can you know, either create

(33:23):
this vaccine for M. Bobus or you know, improve or
take vaccines that already exist and improve efficacy and get
them to be more functional in bi right, things like that,
you know, and also talking to producers seeing where the
outbreaks happened, what caused those outbreaks, and how can we

(33:47):
if we can mitigate that. And sometimes it's just the
direction of the wind blows unfortunately, right, But that's a
big one. Where soa Dakota State is very fortunate to
have med Gene here in Brookings, South Dakota as well,
which is a major is a vaccine manufacturer, and they

(34:08):
do tremendous research with all kinds of species, right, and
they are have been leading the way in deer. I know,
they've done a lot of work with deer and servid species,
and they're starting to branch out and work with bison
as well. And so we're kicking cans down the road,

(34:29):
if you will, about how we can start solving some
of these problems, how we can start getting vaccines and
start getting material to producer that helps them down the road.
And it's exciting. So we are very aware of the
disease crossover between bison beef, between sheep and bison, for example,

(34:51):
And it's out of my wheelhouse a little bit, but
I do quite a bit of work with it. Surprisingly,
you know, I was I very much am happy in
my little happy space of nutrition, right. But at the
same time, if every bison producer is telling me they
need a malignant guitaral fever vaccine, then that's what I

(35:13):
want to help do right right, you know.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
And it's it's interesting too, because you know, you've mentioned
several different groups of this manufacturer and then and then
like you guys are working on on the different things
from the nutrition and stuff, and then you've got you know,
your ranchers and conservationists and tribal you know, nations and
stuff out there that you've kind of mentioned throughout our talking.

(35:39):
And it's interesting how the bison are connecting so many
different groups together into these partnerships. I mean, it's kind
of amazing. And how do you how do you kind
of feel that these partnerships are helping to shape the
future for bison.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
I truly believe that this is one of the most
unique and special industries in all of agriculture, because I
can sit down with big time, big producers and they
ask the same questions and are so invested in the

(36:21):
level of education that they have regarding bison making sure
that they're doing what's good for the bison as the
small producer is. And there really is no locked doors
anywhere within the industry. There is no animosity, There is
no oh well, I don't want to do work with

(36:44):
them because they blah blah blah. No, that really isn't
the case. It's really such a positive industry between even
by the National Bison Association, the Intertribal Buffalo Council, TANKA Fund,
all of these groups are really they all recognize that
we're all on the same path, which is getting bison

(37:08):
back on the landscape right and getting bison back on
the menu as well as getting them on the prairie.
And so we all know that whether we are a
big group like National Buffalo Foundation or a regional group

(37:28):
like the Eastern Bison Association, we all are committed to
that maiden goal and we all work together beautifully because
of it. And it's great.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, yeah, it sounds like I mean, from everything that
we've been talking about in all the different groups we've
talked about, it really does sound like you guys are
all working together and making a difference with this stuff.
So that's awesome. You also helped to do something else.
You also helped to put together an International Bison Health Sympolsium.

(38:00):
So I bet that was a bit of work.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
But it was what were some.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Of the things that came out of that, It was it.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Was a lot of work, a lot a lot. The
vast majority of that credit goes to the National Bison
Association staff because they really pulled a lot of that together.
I was a lot of boots on the ground here
in Brookings. We hosted it in Brookings and it was
just a great experience. It was an only event where

(38:35):
we invited veterinarians that work specifically with bison, researchers that
work specifically with bison in the health field, and had.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
A series of lectures, a series of research updates. Q
and a's lectures geared towards bison health, whether that be
from general hurt health, how do you move your.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Bison, what's the low stress way to do that? All
the way to different parasites that we're seeing in different samples,
so and everything in between as well. So it was
a really powerful event. I think Brookings is really and
truly a beautiful town and a wonderful place to host
an event like that because of all of the beautiful

(39:22):
venues on campus. It turned out really great and very
positive kind of spreading of information so that veterinarians could
go back to their own respective herds and have the
tools needed to make good decisions about their local bison producer,

(39:42):
right that may not before that they may not have known.
And I did talk to a number of people, like,
for example, the Eastern Bison Association and some of the
producers there sponsored their vet to go so that their
VET would have a better grasp on bison management and
bison health so that whenever they came back they were

(40:04):
able to make great decisions for that hurt, and they did.
I talked to that veterinarian and she's amazing. She did
a great job with the roundup that I went to
in Ohio, and it was so much fun. She came
out of that experience with really positive things to say
and learned a lot, which is exactly.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
The goal, right Right. It sounds like you guys had
a good time and it worked out well. So that's awesome.
So I'm assuming you're going to probably be having more
symposiums in the future.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yes, we will. So this was the second ever International
Bison Health Symposium. The first one was housed in Canada,
did and that's really the namesake. Like, we really did
partner with Parks Canada and a lot of producers and
researchers in Canada to be able to come down to

(40:57):
Brookings and present all of this data information, which was
a glast, but we're definitely going to host one again.
It was the timing that we're trying to really sort
out right now, because the first one was ten years ago,
was ten years prior to the previous symposium, and we

(41:20):
feel like and producers and veterinarians felt like that was
a little bit too long. We don't want to get
into like a yearly cycle of that because then people
present the same thing and we're running thin on new
updates and things like that, right Whereas if there was
a really super pending update, we can always get that
out at one of our regional conferences National bisonse Regional

(41:44):
conferences or the national conference in Denver every year. But
we're gearing towards probably every five years. I think it's
a pretty good number. We're going to give that a
shot and see how it looks.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
That sounds like a good number. So just for a
little general information on bison, about how big do these
animals get and about how much food can they consume?

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Oh sure, so bison. So the upper limit of a
bison bowl, a plane's bison bowl can be upwards of
twenty two to twenty three hundred pounds. A big bull
can get quite large, and you know that's probably the
upper average if you if you will, right, and then

(42:36):
cows can get anywhere. Typically cows aren't. They're floating around
one thousand pounds seven hundred, eight hundred, nine hundred thousand
pounds range, depending on you know, their frame size, their condition,
things like that. So they're pretty comparable to be. The
main difference is just how they're built. Most of their

(42:58):
weight is in the front, right, whereas their back ends
are significantly smaller than beef, which is just one of
the fun little nuances of them.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, yep, Yeah, you can definitely see the difference. They've
got small little rear ends.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
Yep, which actually tends to make them more of a pain. Actually,
So because they're so front heavy and their heads and
shoulders are so massive, they are so much, so much
stronger than a beef cow, right right, I mean, they

(43:39):
can tump over a five hundred gallon water tank if
they really are motivated right there, And that's kind of
the rule of thumb is if they don't want to
be in there, they're not going to be in there, right,
and they will tear apart and break anything that you
put in front of them.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
Dang, and their ice? Is there a site poor? I
think I read that somewhere. They don't have the best eyesight,
do they.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Their eyesight is probably pretty comparable to beef. Right, they
see in the same colors as beef cows. They have
similar eyes and since their prey animals their eyes on,
their eyes are on the side of their heads, which
gives some very poor depth perception.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Right right. I just thought i'd ask get a little
bit more information about them because my next question is
is about genetics and how important those are when it
comes to helping to keep the bison herds healthy and strong.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Yes, very important. So genetics plays a big role in
some of the decisions that we make at the same time,
because we understand the value of hybrid figure getting animals
that are not of the same gene pool, of the
same bison gene pool. I'm not talking about cross breeding

(44:57):
animals per se, like beef and bison, but getting the
bull from a different herd can really improve your herd
by increasing that genetic diversity. So if we're able to
do that, then the herd itself hopefully will work their way.
Like and I say herd is in the national herd.

(45:19):
There's a lot to be said about the value of
genetic diversity and ensuring that the animals are genetically set
up to handle adversities such as climate change, such as
disease outbreaks and things like that. And if we have

(45:41):
just this purely genetically isolated herd, if one is ill
because they may have a poor immune system or their
immune system isn't built for a specific outbreak, then they
all get it. Right. If we're able to kind of
move animals around, trade animals across parks, trade animals across

(46:05):
private enterprises, we increase that genetic diversity and improve the
bigger of the herd.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
That's just what we want right. Interestingly, to I just
heard you say something about like climate change our bison,
I mean, do they actually help with like climate change
and say soil health and things like that.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Well, they certainly help with soil health, right, They are
natural tillers of the soil and are able to break
up that top soil, that be alleviated layer such that
they can. It promotes plant diversity, and it promotes insect diversity,

(46:54):
small animal diversity, and again falling into that keystone species
in terms of climate change. There's a lot of work,
as you know right now, that's really kind of a
dirty word within the research business, if you will, But

(47:15):
there's a lot of positivity, right So I'm trying to
think about how to say this the right way because
that's really not my wheelhouse that makes sense, But I
can very well see linkages between like some of the

(47:37):
upstream or downstream effects between climate change. You don't have
to work and have as much equipment and machinery to
work by some compared to beef, and you're certainly not
working them as often. So that does play an impact
on how much emissions that are released as a result
of bison.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
I was just gonna say, there's the big question, how
much gas are they releasing?

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Yeah, well, if they release they release the same amount
of gas, if not less. And I think there's some
researchers that are doing bison climate change and bison emissions
work will tell you that they are releasing less. I don't,
I'm not. I don't know those results specifically.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
It's just it's just interesting. Yeah, it's it's fun sometimes
to listen to some of the things that get thrown around.
So anyway, Okay, so so for some of our listeners
out there who you know, are fascinated with bison and
may want to learn more, you know, maybe they're students,
up and coming students or whatever. How can they maybe

(48:48):
get more involved in bison studies or conservation m H.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
I think there's a lot of really great ways to
do that. I think, you know, and selfishly, I'll tell
you that if you're going to be an upcoming student
and you're really committed to working with bison, to really
consider the Bison Studies program at SDSU. I'm always welcome.
You can. Anyone who's listening can find my information on

(49:16):
the SDSU website really really easily, and I will always
be able to reach out and let you know, answer
any questions that you may or may not have. In
terms of general opportunity, I think there's a lot of
other opportunities as well. You know, going to Custer State Park,

(49:37):
which has a pretty robust bison education program. Right they
have the Bison Center next to the Bison working corrals
where they do the roundups. Okay, nice, that has a
lot of really great information. The North American Bison Discovery
The Discovery Center in North Dakota actually is a tremendous resource.

(50:02):
They have a huge amount of information and have a
beautiful facility, beautiful exhibits to be able to teach you
more about bison. The National Bison Association also hosts and
posts hosts and the posts resources and conferences, field days,

(50:24):
things like that that anyone can go to. You know,
as long as you are able to get registered, anyone
is welcome. You know, you do not have to be
a bison producer to go to some of these events,
specifically because we want to educate the public about bison right,
so I encourage people to go look through those resources,

(50:45):
reach out to any of the aforementioned groups, including myself,
and I will we will. All I can tell you
exactly how it will go is you will be greeted
with a warm welcome with whoever it is, whether that
be Custer or NBA or NBF or the Discovery Center

(51:06):
or SDSU. You'll be greeted with a warm a great smile,
a warm welcome, and you'll hopefully leave with all your
questions answered.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Awesome. And I will put a link to like SDSU
on my Facebook page for the podcast as well, so
I making link over so they can find out more
information about you guys.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
So yeah, good.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Now, looking ahead, where do you see bison research and
devison industry going over say the next decade or so.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Oh, that's tough. I think in the next decade or so,
we are going to be continuing to do. You know,
since we're a land grant institution, we really work at
the service of this cross section of research, education, and outreach, right,

(52:02):
and I think the pinnacle of that is working, you know,
having and working with producers specifically to drive research and
what is needed, right because we can get down into
the weeds about how many hairs are on their head

(52:23):
and how that affects breeding, but that doesn't really help
the producer. Right. So, at least in my agenda, where
I expect it to go is to can continue to
go down this path of how can we determine what
minerals are present, how can we feed them at more
efficient and more appropriate rates such that the producer is happy,

(52:48):
the bisoner happy and healthy and doing well. If you
ask the same question to doctor Jeff Martin, he will
tell you that there's all kinds of things that we
can do. I mean, he goes everywhere from being on
the macoplasma lot of his task force to working on
a project now where he's focusing on bail grazing and

(53:10):
how it affects not only bison and producers, but also
the surrounding ecosystem, right, even the grasses that persist after that,
how it affects dung beetles. So continuing down that rabbit hole,
I think is where we're headed and where I am
happy to head because at the end of the day,

(53:32):
a producer comes and says, you know, I read your
research paper or I read your extension article and it
was very helpful and was able to make this decision
because of it. Then that's really the goal, right exactly.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
I think that's anybody's goal. That's kind of in your
position at least I hope it would be.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
Yeah, I hope it would be too.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
You just never know those sometimes.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Yeah, so you have.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
I mean, obviously, in talking with you, you have put
a lot of blood, set, sweat, tears and heart into
your work. But what do you kind of feel has
been the most rewarding part of working with these bison?

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Oh? I think the most rewarding part for me personally
is working with my students. Being able to see the
students progress whether those be undergraduates or graduates that may
or may not have zero experience with even animals, let

(54:40):
alone bison. To go from walking into a major operation
and a major roundup and being you know, shaking in
their boots to being able to read halfway like halfway
hard to read brands like a real cowboy or cowgirl

(55:04):
and helping these like this major operation read this information,
do these tasks as if they fit in is what
really makes me happy, you know. Seeing these kids get
these experiences, putting smiles on their faces and teaching them
something is really what I love the most.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Yeah. Yeah, Educating is one of the better parts of
doing stuff, so.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
I think so.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, especially when you get to see the progression and
you get this when things click with them and you
can tell it's clicking.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Ye ye, yes, I agree. Yeah, I have a terrific
graduate student. I have three terrific graduate students right now,
but my first one. It's really exciting because she came
in and she had some boys and experience, and we
had to really work a lot and work really hard
on getting a lot of laboratory experience, developing some professional skills,

(56:06):
and then at the end of the day, she's coming
out of her degree, and then people are quite literally
different industries, different producers, different companies are quite literally fighting
over her on who's going to hire her. And so
it was really exciting to see her success and I'm
very proud of her, but to see just her progression

(56:31):
and how she's grown as not only a student but
also as a vice and professional is really exciting. And
that's really, at the end of the day, what I
would black to do for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Yeah, that's awesome to hear for her, That's awesome, so good. Yeah,
that's the both. I mean, that's the best thing you
can hope for when you're getting done with your degree
and stuff, having people fight over you to give you
a job.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
I know. So I told her, you know, this is
a good problem to have. She was over here stressing
about it. You know, our first people that don't get
me get that.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
So exactly enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yep. And then yeah, I say that I'm I'm picking
her up a little bit. I think all of this
is really a testament to her too, so being able
to like, she's such a what she came in with
was being such a terrific people person, right, which is
eighty percent of the battle, right, So yeah, and I

(57:34):
know I'm going to have two more of those coming out.
I've got one more and another master's student and another PhD.
And I really truly believe and hope that they're going
to be in the same boat. So oh, good, good.
And then all of my undergraduate students had a I
was very excited actually about a specific undergraduate student of

(57:56):
mine who took both of my previous classes while he
was still here graduated, unfortunately graduated before we were able
to officially create the minor so he didn't get the
minor or certificate, but he used the connections that he
made in my class to land a position at Inner

(58:18):
Trouble Buffalo Council and is now currently working with Buffalo
as a manager at ITBC, which is so exciting. I
love that for him, and he was such a great student.
He is very well deserving. But honestly, where I could
go and tell you all of these stories because I
think about them often, you know, But to answer your

(58:41):
original question, that's really what gets me going right right.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
And I was going to ask you because we're getting
ready to wrap up here, but if there was one
thing that you'd like the listeners to take away from
our bison dialogues this evening, What would that be? It
kind of sounds like part of that is what you
were just talking about with the education and the learning
and how much of a benefit these people got. But

(59:11):
what is one thing you'd like the listeners to take away?

Speaker 2 (59:14):
I think the big thing that I would like them
to take away is that bison is truly for everyone.
You know, it doesn't. You don't have to be a
producer to enjoy and appreciate bison, because if you go
out onto this natural prairie and or go eat bison
in the grocery store or at a restaurant, or go
to a zoo or custom or so on and so

(59:35):
forth right, everyone can appreciate and enjoy bison, And so
I hope that they as a listener, I hope you
remember that and know that it's just such a wonderful
world to be in and where we can work with
these beautiful animals.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Yes, most definitely. And my one last closing thing is, guys,
don't go mess with the big bison that are out
there in the Yellowstone Park. Please keep doing that, please.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Note, but you gotta live it. Live. It can't be
going out there and getting them close and personal, right, yeah,
even I know that, even and I don't, you know,
working with as many bison as I have, you would think, oh, yeah,

(01:00:27):
I could go out really quick. No, do not. It's
a bad idea, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
Seeing some of these people and then the one that
was trying to push her child towards one to get
a picture.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
I'm like, are you out of your mind? They really are,
you know, despite what we think, they really are still
truly wild animals.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
So oh my goodness. You know the only thing I
can equate to this is is n Necto Dot from
my animal control time, where we would have, you know,
a dog that bit somebody had to go into quarantine
for the ten days, and you would have them in
that quarantine kennel and you'd have like a thing over
the front of it and a big sign that said quarantine,

(01:01:10):
and you'd have someone come in to look at a
dog to adopt and asking you tell them what was
going on, and don't you know, go near the kennel,
don't put your hand in. And I'd turn around every
single time someone be trying to stick their finger in
that connel and I'm like, really, what did you now?
I just can't. It's like the dogs in there for biting,

(01:01:30):
what do you think? So, yeah, you just can't with
some people. I just I just can't. But that's even sillier.
I mean, like you said, these are twenty two hundred
pound animals. I had a good conversation with the lady
that was on from the Chimpanzee sanctuary in Florida, and

(01:01:53):
we were talking about people don't realize how big these
chimps get because you know, they see the baby chimps
and the movies and stuff and think, oh cute, and
these things can these male chimps can grow to be
over six feet tall and they're very very strong, and
it's like they could rip a person apart no problem.
And people don't realize the strength of these wild animals.

(01:02:15):
I just don't get it. I don't get it. But anyway,
so yeah, last.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Clothing, that's a whole other conversation of disconnection between agriculture.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Oh yeah, I just can't. But yes, please, people quit
messing with the wild animals. No matter what wild animal
it is, doesn't matter for spicon, chimps, big cats, bears,
quit messing with the wild animals. Leave them alone. Just
leave them alone anyway. Well, Professor Ursa, it was wonderful
to have you on the podcast this evening and learn

(01:02:48):
all this really interesting stuff about bison. I'm so glad
you were able to join me and give my listeners
all these facts and stuff out there, and hopefully any
students out there will now take a look at SDSU
and maybe go there and learn more about bison through

(01:03:08):
your programs you got.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Yeah, thank you so much, Lloye for having me. I
really appreciate this opportunity. It was such a pleasure to
chat with you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
Yeah, it was great chatting with you too. And I'm
just gonna announce my next upcoming podcast or welcome to
jump off or stay on, whichever you prefer, and I
will shoot you a direct link to the podcast tonight
if you want to put it out there for anything.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
So awesome, Well, thanks so much.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
I appreciate it, all right, and thanks again, and I
hope you have a great evening.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
Yeah, and you too, Hi by.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Now okay, Yeah, so Professor Urso just jumped off. Oh
my gosh. It was so great talking with him and
learning all this really cool stuff about bison. I really
enjoyed the conversation tonight with him. So the next couple
podcasts I have coming up is the next one is

(01:04:04):
the end of October. It's the thirtieth, and I am
going to have doctor Robin Moore on with me, and
we are going to be talking about caring for creatures,
both great and small. She is a veterinarian and owns
her own practice, and actually a little bit of our

(01:04:26):
focus is going to be on cats and some litter
box issues. Doctor Moore had did a blog pause Real
Talks video and she was talking about some litterbox force
she had in her own house with a couple of
cats that she had and what she went through and

(01:04:49):
some of the things she had to do to help
remedy the situation. And I thought it would be great
to have her come on and you know, talk a
little bit about herself and her practice and about these
issues with the cats and the litter box wars she
had going out. So if you guys have kitty cats
and you have litterbox wars, you might want to tune

(01:05:10):
in on October thirtieth to listen to that podcast. And
then on November thirteenth, I am going to have Lori
Hood on with me, and she is the founder of
a Loqua Animal Refuge, and Louri does a lot of

(01:05:32):
animal rescue and stuff like that with wildlife and other things,
and so I thought it'd be really interesting to have
Lori come on and talk about Alaqua and what all
they do over there. So I'm looking forward to having
her on November on that I can't even talk now,
November thirteenth, and then just to let you guys all know,

(01:05:54):
the next podcast would have actually been scheduled for the
twenty seventh, but seeing is how that's thanks Giving Day,
I don't think I'm going to be doing my podcast
on that day, so you guys will have to come
back instead on December fourth, that's when that next podcast
will be. So again, don't forget, we're going to be

(01:06:14):
talking to doctor Robin Moore on October thirtieth and caring
for creatures both great and small, and some litterbox kiddy
issues or kitty litter box issues, I should say, get
that right, And then on November thirteenth, talking with Lori
Hood about Alaqua Animal Refuge. So I hope you guys

(01:06:35):
will come back and listen in to those two podcasts
I'm looking forward to them. I think they're going to
be great. So all right, everybody, Hey, thanks for staying tuned.
I know we went a little late tonight. And again,
if you guys have any ideas or suggestions that you
would like to put out there for me to try
to get guests on, I'd appreciate it. I will look

(01:06:57):
into it and see if I can get them on.
If here's a particular animal you'd like to know more about,
please shoot me a message either calling all Creatures nineteen
at gmail dot com or comment on my Facebook page
or message me on there, whichever you prefer, anything would
be great, and just let me know, and don't forget.

(01:07:17):
I'm on pretty much all the listening platforms for podcasts.
You can find me on iHeart, Spotify, iTunes, fle iTunes, Pandora,
so on a lot of those places that you can
listen in too. You don't always you have to come
to spreaker and try to listen in at that length.

(01:07:39):
So all right, everybody, I hope you all have a
great weekend and try to stay out of trouble and
don't forget to come on back on October thirtieth for
the next podcast by now