Calling All Creatures Presents Giving Big Cats A Voice: Inside Turpentine Creek

New Episode of Calling All Creatures!

Join me for an amazing conversation with Tanya Smith, President/Founder of Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge! I had a change of guest, Tanya couldn't be on so Cheryl King, the Marketing Director for Turpentine Creek filled in for her!

We’ll be talking about the incredible work they do at the sanctuary, the big cats they rescue, and the dedication and effort it takes to give these magnificent animals a safe and loving home.

Don’t miss this eye-opening episode about compassion, conservation, and the powerful stories of survival.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Good evening everybody, and welcome to Calling Off Creatures. I
am your host, Lori, and tonight I have an exciting
podcast for you guys. I'm gonna be talking with Cheryl King,
who is actually the marketing director of Turpetine Creek Wildlife Refuge.
I know when I did my announcements that I had said, uh,

(00:24):
Tania Smith was going to be on with me, but
she's actually basically kind of out of the country right
now doing something else that was very important, and uh
Cheryl and I will be talking about that in just
a bit. But anyway, so Cheryl is stepping in and
she's just as knowledgeable as Tanya. So I'm so glad
that you could step in for her tonight, Cheryl, and

(00:46):
be with me and talk about your refuge and what
you guys do and you're rescuing and all that kind
of good stuff. It's gonna be great to talk with you.
So thank you for being on.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Thank you, Laurie. I'm for all to be here and
to share information about everything we're doing. It's an exciting
time right now.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Oh yeah, it sounds like it. I mean, just you know,
because of our conversations, which obviously my listeners don't know about,
but it's it's they'll find out in just a few minutes.
Good to have a teaser, exactly exactly. So now you
got to stay on here and listen, guys. So why
don't you just start out and kind of tell us
the story behind Turpetine Creek and how and why it

(01:30):
was founded and started.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Sure, our origination story actually goes all the way back
to nineteen seventy eight and Don Jackson, the father of
Tanya Smith, our current president and co elder, and he
rescued a lion cup that he found chained to a
cinder block on the side of the road. Now, this

(01:56):
lion cub eventually got the name Bomb and it turned
out that bumb was in dire need of help. Don
had been a former employee at the Galaio and knew
a little bit about bakecats from having worked there, and
asked for the opportunity. If lion cub was struggling, he

(02:22):
was in poor physical condition, and ultimately he wasn't getting
the right diet, he wasn't getting the right quantity of food.
So Don and his wife Zelda traded five motorcycles to
keep Bump and began his rehabilitation. Well, it wasn't long

(02:44):
after that that they got a call about a lady
who had thought it might be a good idea to
raise a lion cub with her daughter. And lion cubs,
if you've noticed, grow a lot faster than human maybe
and you went along before. This mother was understandably concerned

(03:07):
that she was placing her child in a very dangerous situation,
and she knew about the Jacksons and their work with Bob,
and she reached out about Sheila, this lioness. Now will
fast forward for about ten years, they've had Mom and Sheiela,
and they understand that this is actually a bigger problem

(03:27):
in America than many people realize. And in nineteen ninety
one a woman approached them and their daughter, Tanya Smith,
our current president and co founder, and she had forty
two lions and tigers lori and three cattle carts cattle trailers.

(03:48):
And this was near Hope, Arkansas. So the Jacksons and
Tanya were already aware of this property syring Erika Springs
that was available, and they wanted a better situation for
Bum and Sheila, and now here was this lady that
needed help. So they threw everything in quit their jobs,

(04:14):
cashed in everything they had and moved to your Ate
Springs and with an option, they had a lease with
an option to purchase this four hundred and fifty nine
acre facility which the refuge sits on today, and in
May of nineteen ninety five. We became incorporated in early

(04:37):
nineteen ninety two as a nonprofit and opened our doors
to the public in May of nineteen ninety five to
help raise the funds to care for the animals and
educate about the problems that were faced by the cats
in captivity. The Jackson Ventana ended up with fourteen of

(04:58):
those forty two lions and tigers in their care, and
it was really through that experience that they came to
understand the plight of these captive animals their property. They're
not you know, if you own them, you own them.
They have their rights and they were living in deplorable conditions.
If you can imagine forty two lions and tigers crammed

(05:21):
into three.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
Cattle cars, yep, exactly, not a big space, not at all. Yeah, No,
that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
I don't know what people think when they do some
of these things. Sometimes, you know, it's like, I know,
some people are good hearted and they get started out
trying to do the right thing and then end up,
you know, in a lot of trouble. But you got
to wonder something a.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Lot absolutely you do. There's you know, there's good sides,
bad sides, and they all may lead to a tragic ending. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yeah, I did animal control for quite a few years,
so I understand it. You do. You see good sides,
bad sides, and yeah, so many times you kind of wonder,
how did they get to this point? But unfortunately it
does happen. So once the Refuge and everything was going

(06:18):
and started and opened up to the public, what has
the Refuge's primary mission kind of been.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Well, we started out as a rescue and lifetime sanctuary
for big cats, and we've recently done a bit of
a pivot. We rebranded ourselves this year and our redefined
mission is to rescue and provide lifetime sanctuary for captive

(06:46):
wild animals. We had a focus for our first thirty
two years on lions, tigers, leopards, and cougar's and that
is primarily what we care for today. We have seen
some evolution, Laurie in the exploitation of smaller cats, and

(07:07):
we realized and working with our board, made the decision
this year that we needed to broaden that scope to
allow more focused as needed with other Unfortunately, the exploitation
of wild animals stands across multiple species, and our focus

(07:28):
will remain on cats specifically, but we are not you know,
we are here to be a sanctuary for any animal
in need that we can provide for good.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Awesome, that's a good mission to have. And I know
I was kind of when I was looking at your
website and stuff. I knew you guys did mainly the
big cats and stuff, but I did see that you've
been kind of branching out and helping some of the
other species out, which we'll kind of talk about in
just a second here. Now, you told us to facility
is about what four hundred and fifty nine acres correct, that's.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Correct, situated right in the midst of the Ozark Mountains.
Oh beautiful, beautiful, Yeah, it's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
What kind of habitats do you guys provide for your
animals that you're rescuing there? I mean, obviously we know lions,
you know, kind of come from Africa and the savannah
and stuff like that, and Arkansas is a little bit
different than that. So what do you guys, how are
you guys setting up habitats for these for these cats
and other animals.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
You're getting absolutely, that's a great question, and it's it's
a science. Each of our habitats is specifically designed for
the specific need of the animal that will be making
it it's forever home. And so for example you mentioned
the lions, and servals are another great example, and caracals.

(08:57):
Each of these is currently in our care and they
all come from Africa, and so they are acclimated to
warmer climates, the hot savannahs, and they cannot tolerate the
cold North American winners, so they require heated dens. Each

(09:17):
of our serviles in Caracals has access to a heated
building so that they can get out of the cold.
Are tigers? Tigers are water lovers among all of the felines,
and I found this fascinating when I first began learning
about them and working with them here. But they love

(09:37):
water and they will usually even in the wild, you
will find tigers their territory will include an expanse of water.
It's how they cool down and it's also part of
their hunting strategy. Tigers will be known to take prey
down near water and they will actually drown their prey.
So that's just tigers or water lever and so all

(10:00):
of our tigers, in fact, all of our animals have
a water feature. It's very important to their mental and
just a basic need that in their natural lives they
would seek. So every habitat is specifically designed. Lions and
tigers don't have a lot of upper body strength. They

(10:24):
require a larger habitat, but we can keep it open
at the top. So we can do a twelve foot
security fence with a kick backguard at the top, and
lions and tigers aren't going to get out of that,
whereas a leopard, a cougar, a server. These are climbers
and leapers and you cannot confine them in an open

(10:46):
area like that. So they must have a fully enclosed space.
So they're going to require perhaps a longer, maybe a narrower,
keeping in mind that they need that ability to run,
especially cougars sugers enjoy a forty foot I believe it's
forty feet long, and I forget how many feet wide,

(11:07):
maybe twenty. It's very large habitat, but it is fully
enclosed because cougars can can get out, they can leap
that high. And then there's our bears. So bears are diggers,
they're climbers, so their fence and their enclosure needs to
be electrified. We have two of the largest bear enclosures

(11:29):
in North America. Our bears forage right here on our
sanctuary as they would naturally in the wild. They have
for simon trees and oak trees to get those lovely
per simpons and the acorn. They built dens out in
the middle of their expansive habitat. They climb trees. They

(11:51):
live the life of bears, just in our care. So
each habitat is very specifically designed to the animal that
will be occupying.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, so you might say the bears are getting the
bear necessities are there?

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Bam bam. He's a big grizzly bear, has a really
fabulous waterfall and poll and he loves to entertain visitors
by drowning his logs and various Enrichmond items in his pool.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Oh that's funny. He's like, here, let me show you
how I can do this.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
He got bear yoga. You need to be there on
his schedule. But he enjoys leading bear yoga classes.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Oh, that's funny. He does what like downward facing bear?

Speaker 2 (12:41):
He he does a beautiful downward typing bear. You don't
have to check out our website. There's some awesome images
and YouTube videos.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Yeah, well that's great. I'm gonna have to go check
those ones out. I did see Bam bam on your website.
I just didn't check out all of the different stuff,
so I'll have to go look at that. That's great,
And I was gonna I was gonna ask what kind
of sets you guys apart from other like sanctuaries and stuff.
But it kind of sounds like your habitats number one
are something that really kind of set you guys apart.

(13:10):
Are there other things that set you apart from other
sanctuaries that do this kind of rescue?

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yes, And it's so important that people understand this because
the word sanctuary is very loosely applied. There are places
that claim to be sanctuaries, and we actually, as part
of our educational program, we offer a sanctuary checklist. We
work closely. I like to tell people since I'm in marketing,

(13:38):
I don't have competitors, I only have peers. You know,
the things that may at your sanctuary. A sanctuary are
We do not buy, sell, breed, or trade any animals.
Our commitment to these animals is a lifetime commitment. When
we bring them into our care, there are not ever

(14:01):
going to need to worry where their next meal is
coming from, their medication, their mental state. We are going
to care for them, making sure that all the pillers
of a quality of life are being met. And that's
the homework of the sanctuary we are. GF has that's
Global Federation of Animal Sanctuary Certified so LORI. Any place

(14:26):
that is exhibiting animals to the public, at a bare minimum,
they are required to hauld the USDA license and that
truly is the bare minimum requirement of providing appropriate and
safe care to a captive animal, whatever breed it may be.
So the USDA does inspections and ensures that those basic minimums

(14:47):
are being met. We are held to a much higher standard.
Through that GF has accreditation. Everything from our enrichment care program,
the nutritional we manage all these various dietary needs, all
of that is held to a very strict standard. Safety

(15:11):
while visiting our refuge, safety is a number one concern
our interns and our staff. Everything is with the animals
and might know sadly, when tragedies with big cats happen,
and you can find many stories online, it almost always
leads back to human error. So we are so farrow

(15:35):
in that training and the animal safety and human safety
always first and carrying and giving that animal the best
quality of life, and those are really going to be
the homeworks of a sanctuary. If there's any kind of
interaction with animals, you really have to question because it's
not best for the animals. They're not seeking us in

(15:58):
the wild for companionship if it's not natural. So those
are some of your red flanks when you're entering a facility.
If they're offering you photo shoots and opportunities to handle
these wild animals, then you really should take a step
back that that's not a true sanctuary. And of course

(16:20):
zoos have a very different approach as well. So zoos
are normally accredited through or associated with the AZA, the
Association of Zoos and Aquariums, and their purpose is vastly
different from ours. Ours is providing the animal a forever

(16:42):
home that most closely mirrors what they may have in
the wild, to the best of our ability. Whereas a
zoo is there, I want to be careful not to entertain,
but certainly the animals are there to be on display,
so they are going to be shifted out during the
public hours so that you can see them. You may

(17:06):
visit Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge at two o'clock on a
hot at August afternoon, and Laurie, you may not see
a lot of cats. Cats like any cat, your house cat.
Big cats, they sleep a lot. They may sleep eighteen
hours a day, and when it's really hot outside, they're
not going to be very active. They've got those big

(17:27):
fur coats on all year, so they're going to be
looking crochete. They're going to be snoozing, right, And we're
okay with that because that's what they need and that's
what they would naturally do. So we are a little
different from a zoo. And then we're not going to
guarantee that you're going to see every animal, but we
do promise that you will have a great visit.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's one of the things
I kind of like about the zoo we have here
in Tucson, because you know, obviously we have some really
hot days here in Arizona, and they they don't force
the animals. I mean, they have the enclosures open or whatever.
So if it's too hot and the animals want to
be inside and out of the heat, that they're able

(18:11):
to go in and not so you know, you can
go and if it's in the middle of the day
and it's one hundred and five degrees outside, more than
likely you're not going to see very many animals. All.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
So, yeah, well that's good, that's great, and we do
we are associated with the AZA. And also I'm not
sure if you're aware, but zoos participate in the Species
Survival Program the SSP, so different zoos will focus on
different species. We know, the National you know, the National

(18:42):
Zoo in Washington, d C. Usually has the breeding pandas
and in that program with China, so that is a
vast difference. Also, there is no breeding and our animals
do not qualify for breeding programs. Many of them have
been in bread. The genetics are not pure, and that's

(19:05):
another key difference with zoos.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Mm hmmm, okay, interesting, that's good to know. Yeah, because
I know, like our zoo here, you know, I know
that the zoos, you know, they'll do that kind of stuff,
and they'll have different programs and stuff and they'll switch out,
you know, or they'll get animal or something like that
from one zoo you know that may have Yeah, yeah,

(19:28):
so I know they do kind of do that program
with those guys. I've heard about it. So, but it's
it's interesting, you know, I guess. Well, I mean, obviously
we have to know that they're breeding, because how else
would they have I mean, they're not going out and
capturing these animals, I would hope anyway, not nowadays.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
But yeah, so, and it does serve a very good
purpose especially, and most of the zoos are doing a
very good thing. You know, they're being careful with the genetics,
like I don't you know, cheetahs are right now very
dependent on some of the zoo breeding programs to keep

(20:06):
genetic diversity. We're losing those wildlife corridors in the wild
that used to allow the animals to allow nature to
do what nature always intended, which was to keep a diverse.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Genetic pull right right.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah. With all the building and human encroachment on habitats
and stuff like that, it's narrowing a lot of that
area down. I'm sure it really is Yeah, so for
your big cats rescues and stuff, where do most of
these big cats actually come from? I mean, is it
like a private ownership type of things like you mentioned zoos, circuses?

(20:46):
Where are you guys rescuing a lot of your animals from?

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Well, all of the above.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
All of the above. You know, I've heard that about
the chimps and stuff like that too, So yeah, same thing.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah. So you know, really in the early days, in
the beginning, it was mostly private ownership. Most people were
and it was a thing you probably remember. It was
a thing, a status symbol to have a lion cube
or a tiger, and these animals turn into four hundred
yard lion four hundred and fifty pounds, tiger six hundred

(21:21):
and fifty pounds, and you're just a little bit of
afraid of your pet, so you can't go to the
local humane shelter and ask them to take it. And
that's why places like us needed to become, you know,
we needed to establish ourselves to provide these people an opportunity,

(21:42):
a place to send these animals to get the appropriate care.
That really was how it started. But we have seen
it change. Yeah, we've all heard of tiger King.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Oh yeah, go there. You know that is so weird
that you brought him up because as you know, he
lived in the small town where I kind more or
less grew up and went to school.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, he lived in Saint He was in Saint John's, Michigan.
And I know exactly where the house was that he
had hit those lions and stuff like that at because
they got out. They got out one time and they
were trying to get a hold of him because yeah,
they were out, and I think it ended up he
literally basically told the police to shoot him.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Oh my goodness. That's tragic. Yep, sadly that's usually what
happens like Zanesfield, Ohio. All of those animals lost their
lives and that's really the tragedy behind it. And we
did see following Tiger King a shift our rescues, our
involvement in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. Well it's

(22:51):
really the USDA engaged us for several large confiscations. The
Wildlife and Needs Facility in Charlestown, Indiana, Tackerville, Oklahoma, the
Tiger King Park Jeff and Lawn Lowe where Joe Exotics
cats had ultimately ended up, so we did get involved,

(23:14):
and then last year we actually became a participating member
of the Wildlife Confiscation Network, so we are a go
to resource for the government, the USDA, US Fish and
Wildlife Service in these situations. We have one of the
first tiger coats that was actually confiscated under the Big

(23:37):
Cat Public Safety Act. He was bought private ownership in Conway, Arkansas,
and US Fish and Wildlife Service brought him to US
and that was in April of twenty twenty three, right
after the bill passed, so we see more of that.

(23:59):
We still continue to see private ownership relinquishment that's mostly
now with small cats. Last year at least ninety percent
of our rescues were small cats, serviles, caracales. We brought
Caracale from a basement in Peoria, Illinois. You know, kind

(24:20):
hearted effort trying to save this cat from a breeder
and then realize not the appropriate life couldn't give the
cat what it needed. Put a Carokel in.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Your backyard, right.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
And the instincts you know are going to kick in
with these animals. You turn your back and Emma, this
is the carrakell I'm referring to if you would turn
your back her swat your legs. It's just their instinct. Yeah, well,
we don't interact with her. We never enter her case.

(24:56):
But that's why the owner just could not continue to
care for It just was becoming too much. And carrocales
are very food aggressive. So no a situation i'd want
to be in. No, So we still see a pretty
good mix of boath. We do occasionally have a zoo
that we will work with if there's an animal that

(25:17):
maybe needs to retire, needs to get out of the
public eye. We have rescued in those situations or if
a zoo fails. We've had failed zoos where we have
taken in the big cats that they may have, but
not so much of that lately. It's been mostly lately

(25:38):
the federal confiscation cases we've brought. We call it witness protection,
and I've got two great examples for you right now.
So far this year, we've rescued sixteen animals. Seven of
them came from private ownership, and they are part of
our witness protection. I can't talk about where they came from.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
I can't talk.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
About who had them because their core case is still happening.
Anything we say, may affect that, right, So our goal
is to protect those animals right now.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Yeah, don't want to do that.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Exactly. So we have seven tigers that we brought in
this year, and then we have another eight animals that
we brought in from California earlier this year, also from
the same similar situation.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
This is amazing that people have this many big cats
like this. This is crazy. No, I don't understand, you know,
And what is so funny? Okay, So my uncle, who
I just don't even know about, he literally had a
wolf and a bobcat together at the same time, goods,

(26:50):
and they were his pets. Now, the wolf, you know,
I understand, but the bobcat, I'm like, what is wrong
with you? That's a bobcat. And my cousin wouldn't allow
her children to go over to his house because, like
you said, the cats number one and they'd like to swat.
And so the bobcat would sit up he had like

(27:12):
a cabin and it had, you know, the open rafters,
and the cat would sit up above in the open
rafter where the door was in. You'd walk under it
and it'd swat and get your hair. Wow.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, you know, we had a Bobcat brought to us
exactly in the situation you're talking about. Yes, but people
took it out of the wild. You know, it's tragic.
And Laurie, I'll get those calls every spring about God
and fawns. It's not about I have a fawn in
my yard.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
But there are bobcats like the Bob We have a
bobcat right now. His name is Bob and he was
sound in the wild. Now, Mama Bobcat was probably sitting
and watching the whole time. You'll never see.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Her, right exactly.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
And they do leave the kids during the day so
that they can go forward to hunt, and people will
find these kittens and take them out of the wild,
and it's just tragic.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
So yeah, anyway, this couple had this bobcat and it's
guard their daughter for life. Got her on the shoulder.
And these are dangerous. They can take a pier down.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Oh yeah they are, that's no problem. Yeah, that's why
I was like, what's wrong with him? Why does he
got these animals? But anyway, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah,
and it's funny because you know you were talking about
what you know, the lady getting the lion cub and
growing up with the baby, and I'm thinking, oh, that
wouldn't end up well. But they do the same thing.

(28:43):
People did the same thing with chips. They get the
chimp babies because they used to see the chimp babies
on the television shows and think, oh, how cute. And
they don't realize that these chimps will grow into like
six foot tall, three four hundred pound freaky animals that
will whip you apart at the drop of a hat

(29:04):
if they feel like it's right.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Because when there's hormones and then that's what they see
the baby, they see the tiger cub and there's nothing
more adorable. Oh yeah, the tiger cub, you know, playing
with the ball. You you just want to play with it.
They're beautiful. But they do grow up and they go
through hormonal changes and they become their wild instincts cannot

(29:27):
be suppressed. Yep. Yeah. And all it takes is a
trip and fall and that's a trigger and they're going
to attack. Yep. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
So yeah, people do not get wild animals. I'm just saying.
So talking about the rescues and stuff, this will be
a perfect time. You guys actually have a couple of
rescues coming up that you're gearing up for, so you
want to talk a little bit about those.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
Sure, that's the reason Danya couldn't join you this evening.
We are working, have been working for the past year.
It's a very lengthy process. It's you know, you have
to get permits and approvals to bring these animals across
international borders, not to mention the complexities of the travel

(30:17):
arrangements themselves. So right now Tanya and Scott President and
Vice President Damian Scott Smith are in Little French Kee, Honduras.
We will be bringing back three lions. We are working
towards the day we have received the permit approvals to

(30:38):
move forward, and right now we are in the process
of getting the transport crates constructed. So it's not like
it's can go down to Chewy dot com or at
smart and pick up both. Why not? Why not?

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Why can't you do that?

Speaker 2 (30:55):
I guilty here because you shouldn't be able to.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
I mean, yeah, no.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
They need to be a little bit bigger and a
little bit dirtier. So we're bringing three lions back from there,
and they're down there right now actually getting to see
the cats for the first time that we will be
rescuing awesome and also inspecting those crates for their construction

(31:25):
and and then this is going to be a very
interesting rescue. We will be utilizing all three forms of
transport ship land there. It will be a very long
journey for these cats and so a very complex operation
that we are navigating. At the same time, we're working

(31:47):
to bring some lions over from Canada again their witness protection.
I can't really talk about where they're coming from, but
we have three brothers, three male lions and a female
lion who gave birth during the rescue. Oh no, that

(32:09):
sort of delayed our ability to move forward. We have
to number one, the cubs need to get a bit
bigger before they can be moved. But it also means
reapplying all those permits. We have received approval for four
lions and now there are six, so that delays things
a little bit. So we're navigating that and getting ready

(32:30):
for their arrival and just like overnight, we're gonna have
nine new lions. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. That's a lot
of lions, it is. And we are also taking in
two tigers from a sanctuary which is closing. They're right

(32:51):
outside of Saint Louis. So we're getting ready really for
eleven new animals to join our family.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
I just yeah, those are pretty opposite Canada and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
I mean yes, South and North. I mean, why not.
That's just crazy that, I mean, eleven, my gosh, that's
I just it just kind of blows my mind to
think that people have this many big cats that and
then yeah, you have to take them in because where
else would they go exactly? And I mean the.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
Truth of the matter is, Laurie, there are a limited
number of sanctuaries that do this and a limited amount
of space, and we had just recently completed a major
expansion in preparation for this. So we knew that with
the passage of the Big Kapublic Safety Act, there was
going to be a need for more space in facilities,

(33:53):
and we did that in twenty twenty three when we
brought in Carol Baskin's cat from Big Cat Etique. We
built out fourteen and a half acres on our property
to construct forty four new habitats, so we overbuilt. We
were only bringing in thirty three cats from Carelaska, and

(34:14):
we did overbuild with the intention of having space available
to care for the anticipated need.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
Did well. I mean, it's always good to have more
than less, right.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Fortunately, Yes, but here we are, we're full. We have
one hundred and ten than to be one hundred and
twenty one.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Wow. You know you've mentioned the Big Cat Public Safety
Act a couple of times, so I'm just going to
kind of ask right now. It's I mean, obviously this
is a huge thing to help kind of protect these
cats and you know, get them to where they need
to go to get them to safety. So I mean

(34:57):
it's going to kind of ask, right now, how can
our list Stener's out there support that act in what way?
I mean, is there uh do they write? Can they
write somebody supporting it? I mean, how can we support that?

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yes? And that is so critical because that's that is
now where we are. We have the law passed, which
was huge. Prior to the Big Camp Public Public Safety Act,
it was a patchwork of laws every state had, you know,
some states just to permit some states complete no, you
can't possess exotic animals. Other states, you know, just just

(35:38):
a different touch work. And the passage of the Big
Camp Public Safety Act is huge. We can see a
light at the end of the tunnel at least for lions, tigers, leopards,
and cougars. But now it's enforcement so yes, anytime. So
one of the biggest laws, one of the biggest parts

(35:59):
of that law is violating or prohibiting the interaction of
people and big cats. And that's at any size big cat.
It is illegal to handle a tiger cub, a lion cub.
You're not allowed to. There needs to be a permanent

(36:19):
barrier at all times between any big cat and the public.
So if you're going somewhere and in it's still happening,
you need to report it. And the best way to
do that you can contact the US Fish and Wildlife Service.
They have a phone tip line. You can find the

(36:39):
phone number online. You can also go to their website
at fwus dot gov and submit an online tip form.
It's FWS dot gov forward slash Wildlife hyphen Crime hyphen tips.
You can also report to the USDA and contact your

(37:02):
local and state authorities. You can also reach out you
know if you do a search on Facebook or Google.
Uh there are animal advocacy groups in many areas and
depending on where you're located, if it's a big cat
for example, and one of the things that we're very
proud of having been a part of. In twenty sixteen,

(37:24):
different In Creek Wildlife Refuge was involved in the largest
rescue in America's history. There were a hundred and fifteen
animals living on fifteen acres UH at a facility in Colorado,
and at that time there was this loose group of

(37:49):
accredited sanctuaries doing this work with big cats. Well, Turferenting
Creek Wildlife Refuge could not bring in all one hundred
and fifteen of these animals. We couldn't do. We didn't
have space right, no way, it was impossible. So we
worked with every accredited big cat sanctuary in America and
found placement for every animal. We were so proud of that,

(38:13):
and through that effort we created and established what's called
the Big Cat Sanctuary Alliance. You can always reach out
to the BCSA to report suspected violations or concerns or
and if you go to a facility, if you visit
a facility and you see things that aren't right, try

(38:35):
to document it. You can reach out to all of
these different resources and get some help.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
That's good to know those resources so Yeah, guys, so
in case, you know, if you do see something, listen
back to this and you can get all those the
sites and stuff and where to report stuff if you
didn't get it, you know, or go back and listen
and write it down just in case you just never know.
So always good to have that kind of information, especially
if you work in an area or like if you're

(39:04):
going to be visiting you know, maybe somewhere where if
they're going to have cats like this or something, you know,
So keep your guys open.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
They can't. Yeah, we have to be their voice and
their eyes.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
Yep, exactly. So when you guys take in the cats,
what are some of the physical and emotional challenges that
the cats may face when they first arrive. And what
is your guys's process of rehabilitating a big cat that's
come from one of these neglect or abusive situations.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, it runs the full gamut, both physically and emotionally,
from everything from being overweight to underweight. There's this thought
that if you keep a big cat over seats, he's
never going to be aggressive. No, that's not the key
to being underweight. And there are a lot of genetic issues.

(39:59):
Many these cats have been purchased through calling a kiddie mill.
I guess speed breeding of cups, which was all generated
through the cuppetting business. After the cubs are done with
the cuppetting, what do you do with them?

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Sell them off?

Speaker 2 (40:19):
And most of them have been in bread so they
have a lot of genetic issues. One of the big
things we see is metabolic bone disease. These cubs are
pulled from mom at a very young age. They are
then bottle said and they don't get the good nutrients
that they need. The bones become brittle, and we have

(40:41):
some horror stories X rays that we can show three
of their now adult cats. They were graduating from the
coppetting business. When we rescued them. They could not walk.
Their hind legs refractured, their pelvis is refractured. Simply picking
them up. Their bones are so brittle they'll they'ltnat because

(41:03):
they're not getting the necessary calcium that they would get
from mum. So that's a big one, and every animal
is going to need an individualized rehabilitation program. And then
there is the emotional trauma there are and another one
that's a little mind blowing. But if you can imagine

(41:26):
many of these cats have never stepped on grass, but
we are giving them heaven. They are coming to a
location where we don't have light pollution at night, we
don't have smog, we have clean mountain air, and it's
just an absolutely beautiful facility. But it is completely terrifying
to them. They have lived their lives in a ten

(41:48):
x twenty cage and now all of a sudden, they
have access to this expansive habitat with grass and with trees,
and we put benches. So benches are platforms that are
built for them to get up and on and they
like to be elevated. They love those spaces and we
give them notes. But to them it's terrifying because they've

(42:08):
never had that. So each animal has to be assessed
on their arrival. Our animal curator spends time with each animal.
Are they hiding in their den right they won't come
out out of fear? Are they charging the fence and
screaming trying to scare you, intimidate you? And they will,

(42:33):
let me tell you, you can hear a lions roar up
to five miles away. A tiger's pretty impressive too, And
when they're in their face screaming at you and rage
it'll make your blood freeze, and our staff just has
to The key is consistency, calmness, consistency. They're going to

(42:56):
get that meal at the same time every day, a rain,
snow shine, It doesn't matter that intern's going to be there.
The animal care staff is going to be there. They're
going to get that fresh water three times a day.
They're going to get their habitat cleaned every day. Their
dead area is going to be cleaned. They're going to
receive that enrichment and slowly. Some cats respond quicker, some

(43:22):
take a very long time, but usually they will respond.
We have a couple of cats that just aren't very
tolerant of humans. They just don't like people, and that's okay.
They don't need to, right, We're going to take care
of you and mostly we're going to respect you and
give you the space you.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Need to heal right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, Why would
they like people? Are supposed to like people anyway. They're
wild animals that don't normally come in contact with people,
so exactly something I didn't want to ask. Now, any
of the animals that you rescue, are any of them
ever able to say go back out into the wild

(44:02):
at all or are these animals that are going to
most definitely have to stay with you the rest of
their lives.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
They most definitely have to stay with us the rest
of their lives. There are number one tigers Alliance. There
is no place in America to release them. Oh well, yeah,
not their natural habitats. They have become acclimated to humans
to an extent where they see us as a food
source and maybe two ways they wait. They're not going

(44:35):
to be reluctant to approach you, that's true, to seek food,
they would be killed. It's as simple as that. It
would also be horrendously irresponsible to put those bad genetics
into the gene pool. You know, we see white tigers

(44:55):
are incredibly popular because they're beautiful, and the reality that
he is not one of them should be in existence.
There's only one white tiger that will occur naturally out
of every ten thousand tigers in the wild. With a
population of four thousand, you're not liable to find a
white tiger naturally today. Now there is a population of

(45:17):
golden tavies in India, but you can trace that directly
back to an isolated gene pool that has begun inbreeding
and that is a trait that is coming out. So
and that is what it is with these white tigers.
They've all been in bread. We can trace them back
to Mohon, the white tiger that was brought over from
India back while in the sixties. They brought him to

(45:41):
his daughter and they got a white tiger and he
was like, oh wow, that's how we do it. So
you can genetically link each of these tigers and it
would just be a tragedy to release those genes into
the gene pool in the wild. You would see all
sorts of problems cropping up with wild tigers.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Wow, it's yeah. I didn't think that you could, but
I wasn't sure, you know, just exactly you know, the
extent of you know, what was if anything you ever
got was you know, able to go back. So it's
good to know that they're not and you're going to
take care of them. So that's good. So what can
you kind of go over what a typical day kind

(46:21):
of looks like for animal care staff at turn time, Well.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
There is no typical day. We are dealing with one
hundred and ten predators right right. You're always going to
have to allow for some adjustments there. But yeah, So
a typical day is going to begin with prepping very early,
getting all of the animal medications prepped, so we will

(46:47):
have down in our commissary. Each animal has what supplement
they need, what medication they maybe be receiving, and that
is prepped for now. Their main meal is prepared for them.
Each animal has a specific diet that they are on.

(47:08):
They may only be getting boneless or this one may
be getting some great amat here because they don't like chicken.
This one may not like turkey. So we keep track
of what the animals like. Yes, it's important because we
need them to eat. We are going to weigh all
of the food. They are going to receive an exact

(47:31):
amount of food, and anything that is not consumed is
going to be removed and weighed. It's one way we
know whether a big cat might be having some health
issues is whether they're consuming their diet or not. They're
going to be fit. They're going to be wandered while
they're eating. They're going to be locked into their nighthouse area,

(47:51):
and then the interns are to go into the large
grassy habitat. They're going to clean out the whole area.
They're going to clean out any feast. They're going to
arrange that day's enrichment what that animal might be getting.
They might just be moving toys around to make things
a little different for the cats to come out and explore.

(48:12):
They may be leaving some boxes that have been sprayed
with spices or perfume. That's a form of an enrichment
that big cats really enjoy. They get to explore those
extra sense.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Oh wow, Oh yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
One thing, your listeners. We can take all those expired
kitchen spices, any perfume. You don't like that, big cats
love them.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Oh, I'll have to remember that gets expired.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, huh, so we'll do that. We'll set up there
and regement we tick spray. We have four hundred and
fifty nine acres. Then we have to keep free of ticks.
That's not easy to do in the other.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
No, no, I know how hard it is to keep ticks away.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Oh it's it's terrible. And of course we have bobcats
fever that is prevalent, so we have to be very careful.
Big cats are tremendously susceptible to bobcat fever. Oh wow,
so's it's one of our You know, those hidden lurking
monsters that we're constantly defending against. So they're going to

(49:20):
be cleaning that habitat. They're going to be wead eating.
We've got a lot of yard maintenance to do. We
don't allow anybody near the big cats. Only animal care
and interns are allowed to work close to their habitats
out of a safety precaution. So yes, they're doing the

(49:42):
yard maintenance as well. It's just it's a lot of
very hard work. They're going down to the animal hospital,
they're building the enrichment, they're making the boxes, they're decorating them.
It's it's a plethora of test These guys are working
our average intern, So this is another exciting part of

(50:04):
what we do. We have interns anywhere from fifteen to
sixteen that come in and they will they must have
a degree in zoology, biology and the animal related field,
and they will come live on property and care for
the animals for a six month program. Our programs run
February to August, so we just have a group starting

(50:26):
now and they will be with us until February and
they are responsible for all of the habitat care, in
the feeding and monitoring, and of course our senior animal
care staff is always also monitoring and evaluating the cats
and assessing their health. Nice. So it's a busy day,

(50:50):
you have a lot, and plus we're doing this on
the Ozark Mountains, so nothing is on level terrain, right.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
I was just gonna say, well, you know that's good
for the cats though, especially the ones that like the
cougars and stuff like that that like them. Yeah, they
love that stuff.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
I know, it's wonderful. Had We had a tiger we
rescued a few years ago and he was so obese. Again,
this was one of those people that thought if you
overfeed them, those taken tent people saw his name was Tommy,
and people saw him coming in, they why do you
have a polar bear? You know, he was just a

(51:29):
severely obese white tiger. We'll put him in one of
our steepest habitats and we would roll his bell our interns.
Now you have to look at a Boomeraball the boomerables
weighed sixty pounds. They're not small, They're not lightweight, right,
These tigers can carry them in their mouths. It's crazy.
Our interns had to roll his uphill every day so

(51:50):
that he was forced to exercise. He would put him
on a weight mus brook it.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
He'd probably come out and look at you, look at
those interns and go, really, why do I have to
climb the hill? Yeah, that's tiger calisthenics exactly. Oh that's great.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
You guys got to be pretty innovative to come up
with different things for these animals to keep them still,
you know, stimulated and stuff. I mean because especially if
you're talking you think about a regular house cat in
the stimulation that's needed for just a regular house cat
to be happy, think about something that's four hundred and
fifty pounds exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
And relieving mental boredom is so critical we do. We
give them world class haven't had space, but it's still
a confined space. Yeah, you know, we can't give them
what they would have in the wild, and cougar has
a in just two hundred miles, right, Nobody can give

(53:03):
them that. So we have to make up for that
by keeping their lives as engaging as possible. And Enrichmond
is such a huge part of what we do and
we spend so much time on it, and we keep
track of what an animal likes. This one like bloomer
balls we have a lioness who prefers sticks. That's easy.

(53:27):
It's going to be a big stick.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
It's going to be a big stick.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
We know she loves her sticks. Her name is Savannah,
and she's just the happiest girl in the world. If
she has a stick to play.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
With, Oh my gosh, it's not really a stick. It's
a limb of a tree. And let's be realist through
that's true.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
I probably couldn't lift it.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
I was just gonna say, my dogs play with sticks.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Oh that's great. I have to go on and take
a look at some of the pictures of these guys
and they're playing and stuff in the videos, because that's awesome. So,
I mean, obviously these animals have different habitats. You're not,
you know, putting animals cats in with each other and
stuff for different cats and stuff. But obviously, like when

(54:16):
you have situations like some of these rescues you're doing
where you're getting you know, say, you know, the three
together or the four together or whatever you guys may
take in together. Now do you end up keeping those
animals get together since they already were? And then what
happens if say they decide that they're not going to
get along anymore, and they decide to fight with each other, and.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
That does happen. It is very true that animals, especially
big cats. The lions are a little different. Lions do
live in a family unit a pride, but most just
about every other big cat you can think of, jaguars, leopards, cougars, lions,
excuse me, tigers, they're solitary animals, so normally in the

(54:59):
wild they're going to be living a solitary life. Now,
we do find in captivity that siblings, especially will bond
and they're kept together. If they come to us together
and they get along, well, that's a form of enrichment

(55:20):
that we can't be right. They were going to enjoy
each other's company, and we want to keep them together
as long as they enjoy each other's company. We have
an odd couple right now, um Gala who is a
lioness and Glacier a white tiger. Now, clearly the irreputable
place we brought them from was trying to create what

(55:43):
it's called a white tigonond. Okay, yeah, we have tygons,
we have ligers.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
I've seen the liggers. Yeah, I didn't even realize they
were trying to do tigns and.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
They're absolutely beautiful animals, but they have no purpose existing.
So Ungala and Glacier get along wonderfully. They enjoy each
other's company. They groom each other. We had a similar
situation with Lakota, Aurora, Joey and Kalisi. These were four tigers.
One of them is a tailager that were living together

(56:18):
at that twenty sixteen rescue I told you about earlier,
and all four we're very happy living together until about
three years ago. And then Aurora the white tiger. And
this is also pretty common females, especially as they begin
to age, they become less tolerant of that companionship. They

(56:43):
enjoy it when they're younger, they play. They As they
grow older, one or another one begins to develop a
bit of an attitude and they can seriously hurt each other.
We do not declall that is such a cruel thing
to do. If they have claws, we want them to
keep them, so the only thing we can do at

(57:04):
that point is separate them, and we will. We are
not going to allow them to harm one another. But
then again, we've had tigers like two brothers, bb King
and Mac and they spent their entire life together and
lived very happily together. If one was taken down to
our vet hospital for an exam, the other one clearly

(57:25):
missing and showed clear signs of happiness when he returned.
So you know, it is a little different. When animals
are raised in captivity. We will see what is normal
in nature gets reversed and they may find enjoyment in

(57:46):
that companionship. So to us, again, it's a bonus and
we want to allow them to enjoy them. But yeah,
we're going to instantly separate. So we have a couple
of ways of separating too. Right now, we are approaching
capacity with our animal count, but if we had to,

(58:07):
if we absolutely had to, we could double on a dime.
We have set up our habitats with what we call
a duool nighthouse arrangement. So our habitats are constructed so
that every animal has a large grassy yard and then
they have what is called their nighthouse area, which is separate.

(58:27):
This is on a concrete pad. It's fully enclosed top
bottom sides, and it includes a large concrete for the
large cats. Smaller cats have a slightly different setup, but
the large cats have a large concrete to actually a
septicate that was repurposed to be a debt. And we
will have two of these in each large grassy habitat

(58:49):
and each one can house a cat separately. Now the
cats can share the habitat and share the nighthouse area.
We'll keep them all open if everybody getting along. If
we need to separate, then we can keep one cat
in the night house area while the other cat is
able to enjoy the grassy yard, and then we can alternate.

(59:13):
It's not ideal, but it is a solution if we
need to increase capacity or separate animals.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
So how do you get them into to switch in
those situations, because you guys don't really interact with them
too much, how do you get them to come? Is
it like you switch them like a maybe a feeding
time or something like that.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Or feeding time is a key time. Yeah, okay, that's
usually how you're going to motivate a big cat. And
and we are, like I mentioned earlier, consistency is so key.
You will see the animals they know when it's meal time.
We're looking for the drug up. Yep, there you are,
it's my breakfast.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Yeah well yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean why when they
are domestic animals. No, when it's time to eat exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
My cat's rubbing against my legs the minute I walk
in the door.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Okay, the dinner time, yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
So that is one way another way, and this is
something that we do behavioral management training, and our interns
and our animal care staff are working with the big
cats those that are willing. We don't make any animal
do it. We will assess each animal to see if

(01:00:32):
they are willing and interested. We use treat motivation, of course,
and we use trigger commands. We use a whistle, we
use a ball for them to follow, and we teach
them certain behaviors through a reward system. So we teach
them to display a pall against defense and when they

(01:00:53):
do they get a treat. Blow the whistle, give them
a treat. We teach them to stand extended against the
side of the fence. And the reason we do that,
First of all, putting the pall allows us to examine
for any issues with declalling. Do we have an ingrown
call maybe coming in? It allows us to do that

(01:01:16):
visual exam. The standing fully extended also allows a visual
exam of the abdomen, make sure there's nothing Again, the
cats are predators. They're apex predators. They're going to hide
an illness or an injury. So if they're having difficulties
standing right, if that may be a key that there's

(01:01:37):
a mobility issue, maybe some arthritis setting in, maybe you know,
maybe they've injured a pall, So it's a way for
us to assess their physical capability. We also teach them
to extend fully against the side of the habitat with
the goal to eventually hook the tail through the fence
to draw blood or deliver anoculation with us having to

(01:02:01):
do you know, a much more difficult sedation and transport
to the animal hospital for what could be a basic
exam that we can do a field exam. And then
as part of that behavioral management training, we do teach
the cats to go into their nighthouse area multiple purposes.

(01:02:22):
Is number one, to shift them in when we need
to go in and clean, shift them in if we
need to do a medical examination, or shift them in
in the event of bad weather. We want to get
them locked in and safe until any you know, weather
spreads pass over. Some cats are more willing than others,

(01:02:44):
some of them. It's just really a patience game. And
again we don't force them to do anything, but we
do find that a good many of the cats do
enjoy participating in that program, and they do learn their names,
and they do form attachment to their caregivers. It's one
of the things our interns talk about. It's the aha

(01:03:06):
moment for them when they realize they've made a connection
with these cats. It's a magical moment.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Oh that's great. Hey, yeah, I can understand it. After
you when you work in a shelter, you know, animal shelter,
you do the same thing with the dogs and cats
and stuff in there. You get attachments and stuff, so
I can understand.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
Yeah, it's cool.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
So how does.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
Turpentine work to educate the public about the exotic pet
trade the plight of the captain big cats? And do
you think maybe due to your education and other education,
that maybe the public awareness has improved regarding big cat
ownership and expectation. I mean maybe not, because it sounds
like you guys are taking in a lot of animals

(01:03:52):
Safety Act. So that's yeah, yeah, I would like to.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Say that it has, and I don't know, you still
see it and it seems like the need for another
rescue is always there. Uh, We educate every tour. When
you come visit US, you're going to get a guided tour.
We have an open air tramp and our wildlife interpreters,

(01:04:22):
our education team are going to conduct that tour. They're
going to teach you facts about cats in general, declawing.
Did you know that a tiger strike are skin deep
like fingerprints and if you shave them, they still have
a stripe And.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Everyone is Actually I did know that. I've read that
somewhere before that that they do go down to the skin,
and I knew they were unique. Yes, yes, it's like
a draft spot.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
So you're ahead of the You're going to learn interesting
facts like that about them, and you're going to learn
their individual stories, where they came from, how old they are,
how long we've had them, what their likes and dislikes
may be. Every tour is different. It will depend on
the experience that that individual has had with that cat.

(01:05:12):
You may get personal anecdotes, but you will get an
education not only about carrying and about them as you
know their characteristics and traits and interesting facts, but then
you'll also learn about things like the Big Cap Up
Safety Act and the areas that we are still struggling

(01:05:35):
with the small cats. You know, the Big Cap Up
Safety Act was a huge set it really was. We
can hope that the last tiger cup, the last lion
cup or leopard cub have been born. Now I know
it's not true, but we're so opposed to that. I

(01:05:56):
can't say that about severals and paracales and have and
forbid bobcats. And this is the new flavor of the month,
This is the new exotic animal that everybody needs to own.
And African servle is gonna spring in your home seventeen
times an hour. We had a couple from Chattanooga that's

(01:06:17):
surrendered a much loved servile. They did everything they could
to make this work. Loved her and they just they couldn't.
She was litter trained, but they had to lock the
out of rooms. They're incredibly destructive. They're gonna eat everything.
We've had servals come in that had leash material in
their feces because they will just consume anything they can

(01:06:41):
tear up. So, you know, yes, we see some improvement,
but then in other areas now the exotic pet trade
is as strong as it ever was.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Unfortunately, Yeah, that's crazy. Like I said, I just don't understand.
And I mean, I know, you know, I do understand,
but I don't understand it. I guess I understand, you know,
your little status quo thing or whatever. You think they're
cute or whatever. But you know, these people getting the
chimps and the big cats or even the servals and

(01:07:15):
stuff like that, or they get the caymans or the
alligators and stuff like that, and or the big you know,
the boas and the pythons, and then they don't understand
these animals at all, and then they wonder why their
cat disappears when the bola decides to eat it, and
you know, things like that, and like you guys experience
with the cats and people not understanding how big they're

(01:07:38):
going to get and what's going to happen, and you know,
I just, yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
And when you've got you know, on a caracal. A
caracal is a medium sized cat. It's ver bigger than
a bobcat. Well, if one of them starts tipping at
you and slotting at you, that's very intimidating, let me
tell you. Oh yeah, and I've seen some videos on
the internet. Well it's just you know, that's the current concern.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
Yeap. So what do you think are some of the
biggest challenges that the refuge is going to face moving forward.
I mean, obviously, space is probably going to end up
being one. I mean, even with all the space you
guys have from the sounds of it, with all these
animals that need rescuing and help, you guys aren't going
to have enough space eventually.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
That's true, and that's unfortunate because at that point we
will have to turn animals and need away. It's just
an unfortunate reality. There's only so much space that anybody
can have. The other thing is finances, always finances. We

(01:08:52):
are a nonprofit. We receive no federal or state funding
at all. We do apply for and receive grants, but
it's always you know what, up to one hundred and
ten animals. Now we are so blessed that we have
tysons and give them a call out. They donate upwards

(01:09:15):
of three hundred thousand pounds repeat that number, three hundred
thousand pounds of meat a year. That helps us to
feed the animals. So we are so grateful for them
because you're feeding anywhere from fifteen to twenty pounds per
animal per day and you can do the math. It
ends up pretty quickly. So really the big thing is

(01:09:38):
really finances. Becoming a monthly donor five dollars a month
is if we had you know, twenty people sign up,
that's huge. That's going to take care of one more meal,
one more you know. The veterinary bills are massive. We
have a state of the art that hospital as part

(01:10:01):
of our sanctuary. It was built in twenty seventeen Jackson
Memorial Veterinary Hospital. We have full X ray machines and
scales and blood analysis vergical equipment. You know, we can
sedate the animal and monitor and heart every everything is
there that we need. We don't have a big NRI.

(01:10:22):
We have to go to Kansas State University when we
need something like that. So, you know, really the big
thing for us story is the finances to keep the
operation going.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Yeah, that's that's usually what most everybody rescues sanctuary, and
that's a that's a big part of it, a good
part of the time. One thing I did want to
ask real quick too, since you guys do have animals together,
I'm assuming everybody is fixed spader duodd right, Oh, absolutely, Oh,

(01:10:57):
we sincerely hope.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
So absolutely, because we are, like I said, true sanctuary breeding.
So all males tigers are neutered lions. You can't do that.
You can do a vast sectomy. Oh that's a lot
more invasive than a lot trickier. We prefer to put

(01:11:22):
female lionesses on birth control. You cannot neuter a male lion.
His man will fall out. Oh, you will completely lose
identity as a male, and he will be rejected by females.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
Oh my gosh, that's crazy. I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
Yep, very traumatic for a male lion. Bomb The first
lion in the very beginning had been neutered, and yes
he did not have a mane. It's pretty tragic.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
Wow, that's crazy. I didn't know that happened when that,
You know, that's crazy. So yeah, well, you know what,
Gmail lion birth control is a good alternative. You know,
that's what they want to do, the Wild Mustangs, the
Cloud Foundation, And then they keep trying to push BLM

(01:12:12):
to use birth control on the mares and stuff, because
you know, BLM keeps saying, oh my gosh, they're overpopulating
and they're over grazing. Yeah, okay, whatever, you're gonna put
candle on that land. Let's quit lying. But anyway, you know,
I didn't hear about that now. Yeah, yeah, they do
it all the time. They go out here and they
round up these mustangs and with helicopters and they're hurting

(01:12:37):
these horses doing that number one. But yeah, and then
they put them in all of these great big holding
pens and these horses are there for years because nobody
can adopt them, because who can afford a horse, especially nowadays? Right, So, yeah, exactly,
the horses and the Burrows, both the wild Mustangs and
the Burroughs both are having that done. And there's hundreds

(01:13:00):
of thousands of them probably in all of these great
big holding pens all over, and they want to keep
just rounding up more. Well, finally, finally, I think we
have some people that might be stepping up, some senators
and congress people and stuff. They formed a coalition or
whatever you want to call it, and they're coming together
and they're trying to work to stop what's going on

(01:13:26):
some of the stuff that's going on with the wild Mustang.
So we'll see how that goes and if they actually
really do it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
So's terrible, yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
I mean, they could definitely control the population and the
form of birth control that's sad that BLM wants to
do is not a good form of birth control. And
so the Cloud Foundation that you know, advocates for the
wild Mustangs, there is a form of birth control out
there that's safe and easy, you know, it's it's okay
to use on these and they keep advocating for that

(01:13:56):
and trying to get BLM to use that. And BLM
is so adamant that they want to use this other
thing that's not good for them. So we'll see how
that goes and if things get changed around now that
we've got this other coalition started and see if they
can get some different things done now will be ALM.
But yeah, so, I mean it's awesome if you can
do that kind of stuff and just use the birth

(01:14:16):
control and yeah, yeah, so no reason not to. So anyway, well,
we have gone a little bit over our hour, which
is okay, but we're getting here to the end of
the podcast. So I wanted to ask you before we
get off for the evening, if there's one message that

(01:14:38):
you'd really want people to take away after either visiting
the refuge or hearing our podcast, what would it be?

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
Be your voice for the cat. Be aware, don't go
and give your money to a bad facility. Do some
research before you visit, don't fund them, and say no
to that adorable servil ercal bobcat cub. Yes, you will

(01:15:14):
love them and they will break your heart because it's
going to end tragically. So don't do it. And let's
just learn to appreciate wild animals where they belong. But
come visit us, learn about us, and I know you're
going to walk away agreeing with that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
Yep, exactly. You want to throw your website information out
there so people can go look you up if they want.
And again, I will link your website on my Facebook
page so if people want to go to it from
there they can.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Yes, we are at www dot TCWR dot org or
www dot Turpin Pinecreek dot org. I think PCWR is
a little easier.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
So we are on Facebook, we are on YouTube, we
are on all of the social media channels. We've got
some wonderful videos. You can come follow the cats. We'd
love to have you join the family, become part of
the pride.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
Awesome and people can come and visit and do the
tours and stuff like that. Just not guarantee, and you
might see a cat depending on what they're doing and
if they're sleeping or if the weather's okay and stuff
like that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
But yeah, yes, mornings, our best cats are most active
in the morning. We're open every day of the year
except for Christmas Day, so absolutely come visitors and meet
these majestic animals, learn their stories, see the good work
we're doing. And Laurie, thank you so much for your
time this evening.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Well, I really appreciate you stepping in for Tanya and
telling us all about Turpentine, because I think you guys
are doing great work and rescuing these cats and actually
now the other animals as well, the bears and stuff
like that. And I hope you guys are able to
continue doing what you're doing, and I wish you luck
with your upcoming rescues that you're doing, and hopefully all

(01:17:14):
the cats make it safe and sound to the refuge
there with you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
Thank you greatly appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
Alrighty well, Cheryl, I'm just going to announce my next
couple upcoming podcasts. You're welcome to stay on if you want,
but I know it's probably getting a little late for
you and so you can also jump off if you'd
like so, but I do appreciate you being out tonight.
Thank you, noy all right, thank you very much. Okay, guys,
so the next upcoming podcast that I have is going

(01:17:46):
to be Cheryl just jumped off there. Let me see here,
let me see. We're looking at September fourth. I am
supposed to have Rebecca Shaper on with me talking about

(01:18:07):
her book that she wrote is called Roses to Rainbow.
It's about her dog Gust that she had and Eddie
passed away, and how he helped her in his spirit
form to heal and get through some excuse me, get
through some things and become a healer, which is what

(01:18:29):
she was dustined I guessed to kind of do. I'm
not sure if Rebecca is actually going to be able
to join me or not on the fourth. I'm hoping so,
but she is having a really happy family occasion happening.
Her daughter is having a baby, so she may or

(01:18:50):
may not be able to be on the podcast. So
I'm kind of waiting to find out. Hopefully she can,
but if not, I'll try to find someone else to
fill in. If not, we might have to canceled for
that night, So just letting you guys know ahead of time,
that's what we're looking at. And then on September eighteenth,
I am going to have Sarah Killingsworth on with me.

(01:19:14):
She's with Project Coyote and she is going to be
coming on the podcast to talk about coyotes, give us
some more information on them, and about you know, the
urban coyote, which a lot of coyotes have now become
because you know, we encroach on habitats and things like that,
and how people live with them and deal with them

(01:19:37):
and things along that line, and how we can actually
live with them and how important they actually are to
our ecosystem, even though some people refer to them as vermin,
as they do with many animals that they don't care
for and they think are overpopulating things. But anyway, Sarah
will be on on September eighteenth to talk about coyotes

(01:19:57):
and Project Coyotes, so that one will be under the
Desert Moon, so I'll be looking out for that title.
And then again, like I said, hopefully on the fourth,
I'll be able to have Rebecca on to talk about
her book Roses to Rainbow. And I think that is
about it for tonight I really appreciate you guys staying

(01:20:20):
on with me and Crystal just a little bit or
I mean, sorry, not Crystal, Cheryl. Oh my gosh, I'm
so sorry Cheryl. I appreciate you guys staying on a
little bit later with me and Cheryl to talk about
Turpentine and all the big cats and all the wonderful
things they're doing, and hear a little bit more about
their upcoming rescue. I thought that was pretty cool that
they're getting ready.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
To do that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):
So anyway, guys, come on back in a couple of weeks,
and well, hopefully you'll be coming back in a couple
of weeks for the next podcast, and if not, then
I guess it'll be a couple more weeks after that.
It might even be it might end up being a month.
I guess we'll wait and see. And if Rebecca can't
join me, that's okay. And congratulations to her on her

(01:21:03):
new grand baby, so I know that's always so much
fun to have the grand babies. Anyway, all right, guys,
thank you for staying on late. I appreciate it. I
hope you all have a great weekend. Stay safe out there,
don't get into any trouble and come on back in
a couple of weeks. Listening next podcast, all Right, good night,