Calling All Creatures Presents Under the Desert Moon: Coyote Journeys

My next podcast is Under the Desert Moon: Coyote Journeys with my special guest Sarah Killingsworth, Program Coordinator for Project Coyote.

Join us for a fascinating conversation about coyotes—their role in the ecosystem, how we can coexist with them, and the truth behind the many myths that surround these incredible animals.

Tune in and discover how we can live alongside these clever, resilient creatures under the desert moon.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Good evening everybody, and welcome to Calling Off Creatures. I'm
your host, Lori, and tonight I thought we'd have an
interesting podcast talking about coyotes because it especially fits in
for where I live in southern Arizona, because we obviously
have a lot of coyotes in our neck of the
woods and living with them in urban areas and stuff

(00:23):
like that. So I have Sarah Killingsworth on with me tonight.
She's the program coordinator for Project Coyote, and she is
going to talk with me tonight about coyotes and give
us all sorts of information about them and living with
them in urban environments and stuff like that. So, Sarah,

(00:44):
thank you so much for being on the podcast this evening.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Oh my pleasure. Laurie, thank you for having me on.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
So maybe you could just start a little bit by
telling us about Project Coyote and it's mission.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
So Project Coyote was founded in two thousand and eight
by Camilla Fox, who's also our executive director, and the
goal is to promote compassionate coexistence with all native carnivores,
and coyotes are the flagship species because they have been
the subject of so much unethical and unscientific wildlife management

(01:20):
in this country, and they face relentless persecution and continue
to thrive despite our efforts to eradicate them in many places.
And so their resiliency and adaptability, we believe should be celebrated.
And if we can change people's hearts and minds about coyotes,
then the world would be a more compassionate place for

(01:41):
all wild beings, including all wild carnivores.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah. I know, they're basically looked at as vermin here
in the area where we live and stuff like that.
And they do do coyote hunts, or at least they
have in the past. I don't know if they still
conduct them or not, but yeah, there are a lot
of that goes on because they aren't real respected in
a lot of places. But so, what inspired the creation

(02:07):
of Project Coyote And what kind of d do you
personally to working with coyotes?

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Yeah, so the creation of Project Coote was in two
thousand eight by Camilla as I mentioned, and she founded
Project Coyote just after she finished.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Her master's degree.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
She had worked in other wildlife areas an organization called
Animal Protection Institute. I think it's now called born Free, USA,
but she worked there for a long time and then
went back and got a master's degree and really wanted
to promote compassionate coexistence and particularly science based advocacy and
increasing understanding, and so she had a lifelong love of wildlife,

(02:47):
as have I. I joined Project Coyote in twenty nineteen
and have.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Been a wildlife educator with them since then.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
I currently serve on the advisory board and I'm the
program coordinator for the Keeping It Wild use education and
outreach program, so I do classroom presentations as well as
other public speaking for Project Coyote.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Have a passion for wild carnivores in general, so bobcats
and coyotes and foxes, badgers, mountain lions, bears, wolves, I
love them all. And coyotes have a particular energy about them.
They're just they're amazing to watch and they're such incredibly
intelligent creatures and so adaptable, and also they have such

(03:37):
strong bonds, the pair bonds between the adults and the pecks,
and so for me, they're just they're a fascinating species
and so underappreciated in addition to being completely beautiful.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yeah, and you know, and it is amazing some of
the things that they do, and I mean just the
resilience for them to be able to adapt so well
to living in would the human populations like they do,
you know.

Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating to see that despite our
attempts to eradicate them for many decades now, in a
lot of different places, they've actually thrived and expanded their range,
in part because we eradicated so many of the other
native carnivores, things like grizzlies and mountain lions and wolves

(04:25):
as the European settlers moved west, were eradicated in many,
many places, and that led to an opening. Healthy ecosystems
need carnivores and top predators, and so when the top
predator in certain ecosystems was eradicated, there was an opening.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
And coyotes have an amazing.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Adaptability in terms of their ability to live in different
ecosystems and different climates and also to eat a variety
of different foods, and they've adapted really well to places
from Alaska to Mexico, California to Maine. They really they're generalists,
and so they are able to live in a lot
of different places and succeed whereas other animals who have

(05:06):
a much smaller list of you know, desired prey or
habitats that they can live in, they can't expand the
same way that coyotes have been able to.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
And so I mean, coyotes then end up being the
actually a really important part of a healthy ecosystem to
have because they do help keep the balance of the
wildlife populations like rodents and deer and stuff like that
down as well as I'm sure other things.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
But h.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
So, you know, people never stop to think about some
of these things, and it's like everything plays a part
on the planet. And when you you know, have an
off balance of more a ratio more you know here
than not here, then yeah, you're gonna throw things off.
So yeah, and that absolutely yeah, I mean, but yeah,

(05:56):
they are most definitely important part of a healthy echo
system because of the things that they do do and
they do scav enge and stuff like that too.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
You know.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, and they typically you know, they typically prey on
weak or sick or older members of a species, you
know when we're talking about larger prey, but their preferred
food source is rodents and rabbits, so they're great rodent
control as many of the other native carnivores are.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
And they if they prey on things.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
Like deer, it's typically as I said, it's members of
that population that actually it's better for that praise species
for those members to be taken out because it creates.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
A healthier population for them as well.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
So it's you know, any ecosystem, if you adjust one
component of it, it impacts.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Every other thing in that ecosystem.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
And so coyotes keep certain populations in control, not just
their praise species, but even other smaller carnivores, things like
raccoons and foxes, and sometimes those species are preying on
things like ground nesting birds that actually, you know, certain
bird populations would do better to have more coyotes or
other predators in the area because it cuts down on

(07:12):
some of those smaller predator populations. And then if they're
preying on animals that are eating plants, then the plant
population actually suffers if there's too many of that price species,
that herbi war species, and so keeping herbi war population
size you know, at a certain point, prevents the overconsumption
of the plants in the ecosystem as well.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
So it's all connected.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Well, yeah, most definitely people don't understand that. They don't
understand the the chain you know that goes around either,
because it was amazing when I was in doing animal control,
it'd be amazing that I had someone one time bring
a cat into me that was I don't know, it
wasn't theirs, but it was in the apartment complex where

(07:55):
they lived, and it was out there, and you know,
cats hunt birds and rodents, and the cat I think
they didn't want it to eat the birds, and I'm
just like, well, you understand how this works, right, I mean,
it would be a problem if there was you know,
twenty cats out there and they were eating up the

(08:16):
entire bird population, but you're talking about one cat. So yeah,
there's a big difference there, and that is the chain.
You know, cats prey on birds and and then other
things like coyotes and stuff. If they can get a
hold of a feral cat or something a cat, they
will if it's available, and they you know, have to,
you know, they're desperate, I think more I don't or

(08:39):
because people have made these things easy prey for them.
It's not necessarily you know, the coyote thinks, oh hey,
I'm going to go hunt that person's cat. Today, it's
just you know, they've been made easy prey by being
outside and things like that, so they now put them
in that environment.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, And the truth is coyotes generally do not prefer
to eat or attack domesticated animals. Cats are a very
small part of the coyote diet, even in urban areas
like Chicago, where they've done studies, it's an exceptionally small percentage.
And outdoor cats, there was an article several years back,

(09:17):
i think out of North Carolina about cats being the
perfect little killing machines, and so feral cats and outdoor
domesticated cats do cause significant damage to bird populations, and
so it's better to keep your cat indoors for those populations,
or to have a cadio, which is pretty common here
in California, for people to create outdoor spaces for their

(09:40):
cat that are screened in so the cats can't get
out and prey on birds. But coyotes are not out
looking to eat people's pets. That's one of the common
myths about coyotes. In fact, they far prefer to get
rodents or other small prey if that's available. Conflicts in

(10:00):
urban areas generally arise because coyotes are territorial and they
will typically disperse from their parents' pack, if not at
the end of the first year, within another year or two,
they'll move on to their own territories. And when they
look for territories, they're looking for all the things they
need to survive. And what they need is pretty much

(10:22):
the same as what we need, which is food, water, shelter,
and a place.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
To raise their babies. And so what has happened in some.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
Places is that people are making food available to them
in environments that are otherwise not a great fit for them.
And that food being available can be things like unsecured
compost piles. It can be fallen fruit from a tree
that's left on the ground. It can be people leaving
out their cat food or dog food, you know, in
the yard, and it's it's sometimes even unfortunately, which people

(10:55):
should never do, but sometimes people are actually actively feeding.
Coyotes seem to spike during the pandemic, and it has
a lot of negative consequences in terms of leading to
increased conflict with people, but it also draws animals into
an area and creates a population where they might otherwise
not stay.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
But if they have food and other things that they need.

Speaker 3 (11:18):
Then they may find themselves in a neighborhood for an
extended period of time, and that's sometimes when we end
up with conflict with pets. I've spoken to many people
who say, you know, they just had their either cat
or dog engage in a conflict with a coyote and
then they tell me, but my neighbor at the end
of the street has been feeding them. It's like, well,
that's why the coyote is on your street. It's not

(11:40):
that they want to hunt your cat. It's that they've
been drawn into the area with an intermittent food source,
and now they're looking for other sources of food in
that area. And so feeding wildlife is never a good idea.
Any animal that needs help really should be seen by
a wildlife rehabilitation center or a specialist, or at least
the Humane Society or animal controls, somebody with knowledge about

(12:02):
what they might need. A lot of times wild animals,
coyotes and bobcats and other species, they look thin to
people and so they think they need food, but they're
actually perfectly healthy, and so it creates a lot of
potential for conflict, especially in urban and suburban areas.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Right right, And I'm glad you kind of, you know,
touched on the feeding of the wildlife because we have
that happen a lot here in Arizona as well, and
people don't realize that, yes, it'll bring in coyotes, bobcats,
occasionally mountain lions, you know, so that kind of stuff happens,
and I'm kind of glad that you touched on it,
because that was a question I wasn't going to ask you.

(12:41):
What are some simple things that families with pets can
do to peacefully coexist with coyotes. Obviously, one is don't
be feeding wildlife that's going to bring in the coyotes
or any other wildlife like the rabbits and stuff that
the coyotes actually do hunt, because that's going to bring
them in.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, minimizing conflict is really about us
adapting our behavior to their presence, especially those of us
in the West. The coyotes were here first, and if
they've moved into our neighborhoods because our suburbs have taken
over their territories and habitat, then we need to adjust to.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Living with coyotes. We're not going to eradicate them.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
That's not going to be possible, nor would I say
it's desirable, but it's just as a practical matter, it's
not possible. So people if they take steps to make
sure they're not leaving food available, and as I said,
that can be leaving you know, keeping your pet food inside,
making sure your compost pile is secured, not leaving callen
food on the ground, pretty simple things in addition to

(13:41):
obviously not feeding wildlife.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
But and then keeping cats indoors really is better for
the cats.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
For the songbirds, and for you know, potential conflicts with
coyotes and then small dogs. You know, another thing is
to make sure you're not letting your small dog outside
without you present.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Having a fence is is a good idea.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
There's lots of deterrence out there, and certainly you know
sometimes I hear about and we have.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
A program for ranching in agriculture, for coexistence with coyotes.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
But there are super simple steps that people with you know,
outside of urban and suburban areas in rural communities can do.
Livestock losses from predators is again a very very small percentage,
and coyotes are I think often attributed for losses that
they didn't cause. Because they will scavenge, and if somebody

(14:32):
hasn't seen the reason an animal past, they may assume
it was the coyote if the coyotes are then eating it,
but that's.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Not typically that's often not the case.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
But things like Great Pyrenees or other guardian livestock guardian
animals are excellent, excellent ways to deter a variety of predators,
including mountain lions. I've been in Chile twice photographing the
pumas there, and the sheep herders have adopted using great
parentis to.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
Protect their flocks from mountain lions.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
And one gentleman had literally had his losses go to
zero when he brought in great prineries, and he was
so happy with that that he started breeding the dogs
and giving them away to the other ranchers in the
areas so that they would stop shooting the mountain lions
and instead.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Have these wonderful dogs who protect the flock.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
But you know, here in the States, lamas guardian dogs,
there's a lot of things in addition to having night
enclosures and other things. They're really simple steps for people
to take to protect their whether it's pets or livestock
from predators, including coyotes, but also wolves and mountain lions,
and the non lethal alternatives are really successful and a

(15:45):
much more sustainable path for our society in general.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
I'll tell you, those those Pyrenees are some really good
garden dogs for livestock. Because a friend of mine has
a little family farm out here and she has different
you know, cow ponies, peacocks, chickens, you name it. She's
got them on this property and she has those pyrenees.
And let me tell you, those pyrenees do keep those

(16:11):
coyotes and stuff away, and they hear them before any
person can ever hear them. And they're out there, you know,
right away out there. So yeah, they know their job
and they do it well.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
They do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
So another thing that we had kindly kind of touched
on was the fact that coyotes are thriving in both
rural and urban environments, and obviously they are pretty adaptable
to being able to do that. I mean, we do
provide some things I think that do help them adapt
a little bit, like feeding them and things like that.

(16:48):
But why do you think that there may be so
adaptable when say, another species like a mountain lion may
not be even though I know mountainlons or bears do
you know, tend to come into some areas every once
in a while, But I don't think not like coyotes do.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's a couple different
pieces of it. One is the diet of a particular species. So,
as I mentioned, some species are more particular mountain lions,
bobcats are obligate carnivores wolves typically, so.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
They're looking for prey.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Animals like coyotes and foxes and raccoons will also eat
fruit and other things, including basically human garbage.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
Like are you know, if your trash king gets.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Knocked over by a raccoon, a coyote will come eat
the fried chicken or the fruit that's in it, you know,
like they they're willing to eat, whereas you wouldn't find
a bobcat willing to eat your trash basically, right.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
So some of it is their willingness to you know,
it's it's what they're built to eat.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
And so coyotes are really built to eat a very
very broad diet.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
They're sort of like ravens in that sense.

Speaker 3 (17:59):
And you know they're other species as well that are
willing to eat a variety of food sources depending on
what's available.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
Bears as well, black bears particularly, so.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
That allows them to spread into different places.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
And then another piece of it is temperament.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
So different species have a different level of tolerance of
being around humans. And of course, I mean what I
find fascinating as a wildlfe photographer and a naturalist is
spending time with different species, observing not just the general
temperament of a particular species, but also the individual temperaments

(18:37):
within that species and so amongst any given populations. So
coyotes are I think, in general pretty curious. They're very
intelligent and curious, but some are more skittish than others,
and some are more adventurous and bold, and will it
tends to be the ones that are more adventurous and

(18:57):
bold that go into the urban air is because they're
not afraid of some of the same things to the
same extent, and certain species like bobcats and wolves tend
to be quite skittish of humans, and so they're less
willing to live in, you know, sort of suburban areas,
let alone urban areas. But bobcats have been increasing their

(19:19):
presence in suburban areas for sure, in the West, so
they're adapting as well. But coyotes in particular have both
a broad diet to sort of choose from what they
can eat and be healthy, and also that temperament of.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Adaptability, versatility, curiosity. I mean, in many ways, coyotes, you know, they.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Also have a sort of fission fusion model where they
have a family unit and then they break off from
it and leave and then create their own family. They're
very like humans in a lot of ways, and so
they would actually be a great mascot for the United
States as a sort of adventurous, curious, adaptable intelligence being.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
So it really is sort of shocking that.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
We don't appreciate them as being so similar to us
in so many ways, you.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Know, and you've touched on that a couple of times now,
you know, the family stuff. So why don't you just
tell the listeners a little bit more about coyotes, you know,
in their like kind of familiar type units, how long
they live, you know, in how many kids because or
are they called kits for the coyotes as well as
like the fox or are they just pops ye pups?

Speaker 3 (20:38):
Yes? So yeah, yeah, sure, So coyotes typically form a
lifelong pair bond, so a male and female will stay together.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Generally through their lives.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
A coyote in the wild generally is not going to
live more than seven years, sort of at the outer
upper end, and it can be shorter. The average lifespan
if you look at averages, is a much lower number
because unfortunately, there's very high pup mortality.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
So the pair.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
Generally will have a small pack, which is and this
varies a little bit based on location and geography and
the size of the territory and how much food is
available and how many coyotes it can support. But typically
you would have the parents with the current years offspring,
and then they would have maybe one or two from

(21:34):
a prior year helping them sort of raise those pups.
And at the end of that first year, most of
the pups, the surviving pups will disperse. And like I said,
the mortality rate for pups is very high.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
It's generally estimated at.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
Fifty to seventy five percent of pups do not survive
to their first birthday.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
So if they have a.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
Litter, and I would say based on my own personal observations,
litters of five to seven is pretty common, they can
have larger litters of pups up up nine or eleven,
especially if their population is under stress, they sometimes have
larger litters to compensate. But those pups will, like I said,

(22:22):
one or two might stay behind with the parents through
the next season. But one of the reasons that there's
a lot of potential either conflicts where people seeing coyotes
right now at this time of year is that in
the fall.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
You get the juveniles dispersing.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
They were born in the spring, they've been raised by
their parents, and then they are off trying to find
their own territories. And so unfortunately, many of them are victims.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Of road strikes because they will walk.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Just like for us, a trail or a dirt road
or a road is literally the path of least resistance.
You don't have to push your way through rush to
continue along your way. Wildlife also frequently uses those those
kinds of areas, and so coyotes are often walking on
roads or trails, and that can lead to mortality as well.

(23:13):
So the bond of the parents, like I said, they'll
have a litter of pups each year, and coyotes generally
don't sleep in dens, so they have dens solely for
the purpose of pups, and they'll have a.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Natal den and then they do move that den. That's
another thing. We get a lot of questions about, there's.

Speaker 3 (23:34):
A coyote on my property and I think they have
pups and I want them to leave kind of thing.
And people, you know, it's not ethical or appropriate to
remove pups from a den. But typically the pups will
be moved by their parents every week or two just
to keep them safe. And so what we usually advise

(23:55):
people is to just give it a little bit of time.
You know, in a matter of usually a couple of weeks,
as I said, the pups will get moved to a
different location. And so it's not a long term. They're
not gonna stay with their pups for the six months
that they're raising them on one piece of you know,
in one dend site.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
They're gonna move them around in their territory.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
So so yeah, but they're the playoty pups are so
adorable to watch. And I've been lucky enough to watch
a number of families and the pups they're a little
they're a little play like.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
They just they look like puppies, you know.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
They they play, they wrestle, they chew, on each other's
ears and tails and roll around and chase butterflies and
really are remarkably similar to our canine companions again, which
is why it's sort of shocking to me that we
don't have a higher level of appreciation for them.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah, I mean they seem to show I mean, just
like our pets, they have their own unique personalities, you know,
they'd like to do that. And it's funny because just
becau because of the animal control side of me, I
kind of I have a friend and they had a
bull terrier and a coyote would come up to their
property and would play with their bull terrier.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Well and yeah, okay, it was cute, but I'm thinking,
you know, yeah, my and I'm sure their dog was vaccinated,
but still I'm thinking, I don't know, but it never
seemed to go beyond them just playing and I mean,
you know, or anything like that. So and then after

(25:34):
a while, I think the coyote just you know, went
on and moved on and everything, because I haven't heard
they haven't said anything about the dog playing with the
coyote any longer. So I was just like, ye don't
know if that's a good idea.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Yeah, it doesn't seem like a great idea just from
a disease at standpoint or injury standpoint. But yeah, yeah,
that's a pretty unusual circumstances, I.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Would say, Yeah, I thought so.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
I mean, I mean, it's not the first time I've
heard of it, but not like this close to it
being a friend or something like that. I've just heard
of it, you know, word of mouth. But yes, and
they had like a video of it too a couple times,
whether out there playing it was just like, okay, well,
I'm not sure if I do that, but you know,
that's on you guys.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
But yeah, well, and I mean.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
I think you know, one of the myths about coyotes
is that people think that they, you know, target dogs
or try and lure their dogs into the bushes to kill.
They have all these ideas that coyotes somehow have this
ill intent towards our pets, and they don't.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
But at the same time, coyotes and dogs.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
Are closely enough related that if your dog goes into
a coyotes territory and the coyote, as I said, they're territorial,
which means they defend their territory, including against other coyotes
and I've watched them chase off other coyotes. So if
your dog gets into a space where they're in coyotes territory,
it could be chased out to make sure they're protecting

(27:06):
their territory. But particularly if they have pups and it's
you know, denning season, which is typically February through August.
I mean, again, it varies somewhat based on location in climate,
but that's when they'll have pups, you know, in a
den site and nearby, and they'll be very very protective.
And so having any dogs off leash in a pup
area or a den area is you know, inviting the

(27:28):
potential for conflict, because those coyotes are going.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
To, just like we would, protect their babies.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
And if a dog comes sniffing around because it smells
the pups or the coyotes and goes running into the bushes,
there could be a cocklict. The coyotes aren't intentionally luring
the dog there, but they will protect their pups if
they find an intruder. That is, as I said, so
similar to them that it feels like a threat.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Well, and then and then of course, you know, with
that being said, you know, if the coyote comes out
and then runs back the dog, would you know kind
of that, Oh, I'm going to chase it now because
it's got my attention and what is it? And you know,
because now the dog is also curious kind of like
you know the coyote in some times. But I'm glad
you actually said that though about them having the pups

(28:14):
and protecting them and stuff, because I was actually going
to bring that up, and because you see on the
Facebook stuff sometimes the post where people are like, well
I was all walking my dog and this coyote ran
up and I tried to attack me, my dog and
me and blah blah blah, and it's like they don't
ever stop to think, you know, how close were you
to maybe some of their pops when you walked by

(28:37):
so or even like you just said, if they were
in that coyotes territory and that coyote felt threatened or
wanted to defend it, it might run out like that.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
But yeah, and the truth is, you know, for wildlife,
every single day is about survival, and so most animals
will not engage in conflict that they think could hurt
or kill them. Right, They're going to use whatever level
of defensive actions they think has the minimum of risk

(29:08):
and the most likelihood of avoiding a threat. And so
you know, in a lot of cases, an animal will
simply flee, right like, if they see you or your dog,
whether it's a bobcat or a coyote or a mountain lion,
they see you coming and they're gone. They don't want
anything to do with you, and they certainly don't want
conflict because they don't want to be injured. And even

(29:29):
within the species, you know, coyotes will bare their teeth
and you know, assume a submissive posture and what one
might chase the other, but physical contact is relatively rare
and is reserved for circumstances where they think that's what's
necessary to protect either themselves or their pups. And I
do just want to sort of close the loop on that,

(29:49):
which is to say that it's much better for people
to have their dogs on leash during pepping season if
they're walking in an area.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
That has coyotes, because it is often the.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Off leash dogs that go trotting off to investigate the
smell or see a coyote and.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
Then run after it. And I've had so.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Many people tell me, oh, my dog is under voice control.
My dog would never run off. And the truth is
that they're animals.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
And an or run. They have a chase.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
Instinct, just like coyotes do, just like other species do.
And so you know, I think, just like as humans,
we have executive functioning and then we have fight or flight,
and there are moments where are sort of the reptilian
part of our brain that says, you know, just protect
yourself from a threat that takes over and you become flooded.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Right, you can't. Your executive functioning is not working the
same way, right, And so.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
We have to understand that the same thing is true
as it relates to an animal's instincts. Right, there are
certain instincts that it's instantaneous. Right, They're not stopping to think, oh,
that coyote might hurt me. It just ran, and they
want to chase the thing that just ran.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Right. So, yeah, they're often.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Running and you might be able to call them back,
but you might not be able to get them.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
Back before they've tangled with the wildlife that you know
they just went to go investigate.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
So keeping dogs on leash is one good way to
avoid those kinds of conflicts, especially during pupping season. But
also one of the things that I often hear people
asking about is the coyote. They'll say that the coyote
was stalking them. Yeah, And so you know, it's a
behavior we call esporting. And oftentimes if you and particularly

(31:33):
if you have your dog with you, if you're near
a den, you don't need to be like on top
of it, but just you know, even in the vicinity.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Of a den when they have pups, at.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Least one of the parents is pretty much always right
nearby with the pups. One of the parents will be
off hunting, but typically one is very close to.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
The den site keeping an eye on those pups.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
And if you walk towards that area and you get
close enough to make the parent nervous, then here's may
come out and basically walk along with you, and they're
escorting you to make sure that you're leaving the area
and that you're not going to.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Bother the pups.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
And so I always tell people, you know, don't run
because that'll trigger potentially a chase instinct. So you never
want to run from wildlife, period, but you know, just
to walk away. If you have a small dog, it's
a good idea to pick them up and you know,
walk away from the coyote, But the coyote is not
stalking and planning to pounce on you later. The coyote
is doing what we all do, which is protecting it's young,

(32:34):
and he or she is going to do what they
think is necessary to protect their pups, and that is
to have a level of vigilance around anyone, particularly dogs that,
like I said, are a similar enough species that feel
like a threat. But you know, humans are a threat
to every other species as well, and so we're seen
as potentially dangerous.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
When when we have a dog or without a dog.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
And so if they're escorting you, if a parent is
escorting you out of the area, they're going to walk
with you till you have cleared where they think you're
a threat to the babies. And so the calm walking
away is the best thing you can do, especially, like
I said, this is during pupping season, that escorting behavior.
Sometimes people also find coyotes approaching them at closer range

(33:20):
than is comfortable, and that typically is animals who've been
fed in the past. They lose what should be a
natural level of fear of humans, because as I said,
we are the most dangerous species on the planet, you know,
with no question for coyotes and many other animals, so
they shouldn't walk towards you. But if they do, we

(33:42):
encourage people to haze them and make yourself big and
loud and try and scare them basically away, teach them
that humans are not something to approach.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
That won't work if.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
They're protecting a den, so we never suggest hazing near
a den site. But otherwise, if you're out on a
hike and you know a coyote comes towards you on
a trail, your hands. Some people carry like gravel in
a little like an empty soda can that they've taken
shut you can shake. It's really loud, or an air horn,
but something to make a loud noise and make yourself big.

(34:12):
And as I said, most coyotes are going to run
when they see you from the get go. They're not
going to stick around for you to take a can
out of your pocket and make yourself loud, and they're
not going to approach you. But if one does, hazing
is a good option. And if it's popping season and
they don't move and they don't go away, then you
just need to walk out of the area because it
means you've approached a den site and they're going to

(34:32):
protect their pots.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
So they won't leave.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
And excuse me, I just want to throw a couple
of things in. So if you have a retractable leash,
please people, keep it retracted in. Don't be letting your
dog go out ten feet away from you on a
retractable leash. I hate those things anyway, Yep. They break
so easily, you know, especially if you have it on.
I mean, if it's on a chihuahwah, that's one thing.

(34:55):
But if you have it on say a little bit
bigger dog, you know, or even one that's like some
of those terriers and the jack Russells and stuff. They're
strong little dogs, and I mean they could break one
of those retractable leashes if you really want to know
the truth, so honest to God, please if you can
do away with the retractable leash, get a regular leash.

(35:16):
But please, if you do use retractable, make sure you
keep it up and locked in next to you if
you're walking in that area, because you know your dogs,
you know, running out at the end of that retractable leash,
it's just like it's off leash, So you know, keep
it with you. The other I just wanted to also say,

(35:36):
you know, great advice for you know, if with the
coyote and hazing it to try to get it to
run away and if it doesn't. But also keep in
mind sometimes if you if you think you're encountering you
should probably also know the signs. I don't know what
I want to say this badly, but you should know
the signs of if an animal might possibly be sick

(35:58):
as well with the they're distemper or rabies distemper. Obviously
they're they're a lot sicker and different things, but you
should also especially if you're someone that goes out and
hikes in areas where there is wildlife, where there could
be rabies and stuff add and it's not just like
you got foxes, you got skunks, you got bats, But

(36:19):
just be aware of the signs of that disease as well,
the two different forms of it, just in case, you know,
something were to happen where if you tried to haze
or if the animal was acting oddly, that you'd be
able to recognize the difference. And uh yeah, because you
probably don't want to be around there if you do
have a sick animal.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
But yeah, yeah, and you know, typically animals like raccoons, skunks,
and bats are more typically rapist vectors. Yes, it's possible,
and again this is the kind of thing that probably varies,
you know, by state or even locality in terms of
what is a potential rabies vector exactly. But yeah, but yeah,

(36:59):
always good to know of the signs of illness and
wildlife and again to move away from an animal that's
behaving oddly and call in appropriate you know, resource, whether
it's a humane society or animal control or a local
wildlife we have I mean every again, every area.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Has its set of resources for that.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
But exactly, definitely there are people who are trained to
assess such things.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
And just get ahold of the proper authorities exactly exactly. Yeah,
So I just wanted to put that up there, or
and just just to throw this out there. If you
do happen to see a coyote out there running around
with an acme stick of dynamite, you might want to
get some help for that, because Wiley just might be

(37:41):
after the road runner. You just never know. Just saying
that's funny, Yeah, I just saw something on Facebook. It
was too funny about that. Kause of stuff. So we
are the dogs. Obviously, certain dog breeds get misunderstood, like
you know, rat Wilder's adobies, pit bulls have all been

(38:04):
misunderstood at different times. Do you think that the coyotes
kind of get misunderstood in that same way?

Speaker 3 (38:13):
Yeah, I mean I touched on earlier the fact that
the European settlers as they moved across the country engaged
in basically a war on predators for a variety of reasons,
misguided ones, but you know, they were killing and had
bounties on whether it's bobcats, wolves, mountain lions, bears, you

(38:34):
name the species, and coyotes were part of that. And
then even to this day, as you've touched on there
are you know, coyote hunts. Codes are unprotected in many
states in terms of no limits and seasons and anything
like that. In terms of hunting, they are also, unfortunately
often a species that is the subject of wildlife killing contests.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
A Project CODE. We have a.

Speaker 3 (39:00):
Campaign we are in the process of trying to eradicate
wildlife killing contests across the country everywhere.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
We've been working state by state.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
We've been working on bands in federal lands, and you know,
it's a slow change in terms of people's mentality around coyotes,
and as you.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Mentioned, they're often in many places seen as.

Speaker 3 (39:22):
Vermin despite their role as a critical component of a
healthy ecosystem. And so, you know, I think one of
the things that has led to misunderstanding coyotes or a
bias against them, is that they have defied our attempts
to control them and eradicate them, and they despite the

(39:44):
fact that we kill half a million coyotes a year
in this country between hunts and wildlife killing contests and
USDA Wildlife Services, there are still two and a half
million coyotes and they have thrived despite ourttempts to eradicate them,
which I think should earn our respect. But I do

(40:05):
think they're misunderstood, and that misunderstanding, I think some of
it is that historical narrative that predators are bad or evil.
I mean, it goes back to Little Red riding Hood
and the big bad Wolf, right. I mean, they're amazing animals,
but they are portrayed negatively and have been now for
practical centuries really at least in certain cultures, including the

(40:26):
current dominant culture in North America. So it's a really
unfortunate thing. But part of our mission at Project Coyotes
is to educate and to encourage people to understand coyotes
and other carnivores and to love them and appreciate all
the things they bring to a healthy ecosystem. And yeah,

(40:48):
I do think a lot of it is based on
fear and our inability to control them.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
And you know, and I was going to ask you
about that, but you kind of maybe you touched on,
you know, because they do evoke these strong emotions. We've
touched on kind of the fear aspect and why that's
such a strong emotion with people. But then you kind
of do have that flip side with people, especially like
you know, stay people like yourself with the Project Coyote,
where you also have you have the admiration for them.

(41:15):
So obviously they're also sparking a pretty strong emotion on
that flip side as well, with you guys out there
trying to advocate for them. So why do you think
that coyotes are able to spark such a strong emotion
in people.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
I think some people.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
Naturally are drawn to rooting for the underdog literally in
this case, they they are so maligned and misunderstood and
yet if you spend any time with them at all,
you see how beautiful they are, how intelligent they are,
how playful they can be, and can develop a level

(41:55):
of respect and admiration and affection for them.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
And so I think more and more people.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
Are appreciating all of their positive attributes, but you do
have to get past the fear. And again, I think
it's a generational thing, and so hopefully with each generation
we have more people who appreciate and understand them and
are no longer participating in sort of this narrative that

(42:26):
coyotes and other predators or carnivores are bad or should
be controlled or eradicated because the ecosystem, if it's allowed
to be.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
In balance, is in balance.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
And you know, I mean this is an issue not
just for coyotes, but other species as well, including wolves.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
And you know in Canada there's.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Been unfortunately calling of wolves and it's impart to protect
an elk species, but the science shows that the reason
the elk are struggling is because of loss of habitat.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
So killing wolves isn't going to increase the.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
Elk numbers If the elk don't have adequate habitat to
live in because species size is largely determined by the
availability of food, and if you don't have enough food,
the population won't grow even if you eradicate all of
their predators, right, because they don't have enough food.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
To support a larger population.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
So that's one of our missions is to have science
based advocacy, right to look at what really is happening
in the ecosystems and not have it be based on
fear or myth. But what the studies show is the
cause and effect of what's happening in various places in
the continent.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Right And you know, and that's the thing is research
has been done on different species that they've tried to
take out of certain areas. I mean, look at the
wolves and over in the Yellowstone area and stuff like that.
When they've found out that other species in the ecosystem
were suffering because the wolves weren't there, so you know,

(43:58):
they reintroduced them. They're finding that these species are thriving
again or starting to thrive again because the wolves were
reintroduced over there. And we've just had some issues here
in my own county. Is that the Mexican gray wolf
that they've been reintroducing and here in the county I

(44:19):
live in. I think we I don't know if they
introduced a couple here or what, but man, people went
off the chain that those were being introduced here. They
we have a lot of cattle ranchers and they were
freaking out, and so they literally fought and got them
removed from here. If I if I'm thinking I've read
the story correctly, So.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
Yeah, that's really too bad because again, even including wolves
and mountain lions, that the livestock losses from carnivores is
very low. You know, the studies have shown nationwide it's
like fewer than five percent of livestock losses from all carnivores.
Most livestock losses are from weather or disease.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
And like I said earlier, there's.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
So many non lethal methods to prevent conflict for livestock,
so guardian animals, there's fencing, there's fox lights, you know,
flashing lights that you can put on. There's a lot
of different ways to deter predators from coming near any
sort of livestock.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
And yeah, really.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Our ranchers out here have their livestock up in the
I mean here, the mountain lions, I think get more
of the livestock than I think maybe the wolves would
have been. But you know, the ranchers during the springtime
have their livestock up in the foothills of the mountains,
so they're they're up in the mountain lion territory. So
you know, that's I can kind of understand why, you know,

(45:45):
mountain lions will get and it's not I don't think
I've heard of a whole lot of losses. It's not
a lot, but I mean it does happen. But then again,
even if they weren't up there in those foothills, you know, David, still,
like you said, be experiences and losses from all those
other things that they mainly get the losses from. But
but yeah, I don't know. I was kind of like,

(46:06):
I thought it would be kind of cool to have
the wolves here, but yeah, a lot of other people didn't.
So I think they won now and they I'm pretty
sure that they won and that they've been removed from here.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
So I'm sorry to hear that.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
You know, maybe one day, Yeah, you kind of spoke
about that. You guys are helping to kind of work
on policy and some of the advocacy that you've been
doing for more humane management instead of lethal control. And
like you just you just mentioned quite a few different
methods to uh, you know, humanly help control losing things

(46:47):
like your livestock and things like that. I mean beyond
the guardian dogs, the fox lights and all that other stuff.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Yeah, yeah, you know, there's so many tools available now
that there really isn't a need for lethal controls and
are our ongoing efforts are in a variety of areas.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
To protect wild carnivores.

Speaker 3 (47:09):
So it's it's legislative changes, it's grassroots mobilization because in
a lot of communities, it just takes one rancher to say,
I don't want to kill the wolves, or don't I
don't want to, you know, have them removed from our area.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
How do I coexist?

Speaker 3 (47:28):
And if one member of the community gets great pyrenees,
you know, to go with the herd or tries the
fox flights along their perimeter, that kind of grassroots and
then starts talking to their neighbors and.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
The other members of their community.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
That's often what it takes to change a community in
terms of from lethal to non lethal control. It's about education.
It's somebody you know, having had the experience and because
people change can be hard for people, and so it's
really beneficial to have these kind of grassroots, local community efforts,

(48:06):
and so it is part of why we have state
representatives in a number of states. Why, you know, those
of us who do public speaking, we do it in person,
but we also do it on zoom so that we
can provide information to communities who are interested all across
the country, even if we don't have a representative in
their local areas, so that we can talk about these

(48:26):
strategies and encourage people to use non lethal methods because
they're very successful. Nice.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
That's good that you guys do that with the zoom
and stuff like that, because it makes it so much
easier sometimes.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Absolutely, Yeah, I've done presentations like internationally.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
I've done them for people in Canada and.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Other parts of the world, as well as obviously across
the US from Chicago and Massachusetts to California.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
So yeah, very nice. So have you actually seen communities
that have successfully shifted from feared to coexistence and what
made it work for them?

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (49:05):
I mean, I think one of the early successes for
Camilla and for Project Coyote was here in northern California,
Marin County, eliminated their contract with USDA Wildlife Services, which
does provide lethal removal of animals for ranching and agricultural interests,

(49:26):
and we were able to have a community adopt non
lethal ways to prevent conflict and to coexist.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
And so I.

Speaker 3 (49:38):
Think again, it really it starts with having one person
in a community sort of question that status quo or
that assumption that, oh, there's a mountain lion in the area,
we should go kill it, or coyotes don't have any
value in their you know, their vermin, so we'll just
you know, shoot them. And and once one or two

(50:02):
people and they start talking to other people and you
have information available, you have a local success story. And
that's again going back to our science based approach, right,
The science supports non lethal controls. Lethal controls often don't
work for a variety of reasons, including new animals moving

(50:22):
into available territory, and so if the conflict is created
because there's a food source, even if you eliminate the
animal that was in the area, the odds are very
high that in territorial carnivores, then another one will come
in eventually, And so reducing conflict in a non lethal
manner is going to be successful in the long term, right,

(50:45):
as opposed.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
To what may seem like a quick.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
Fix of putting aside obviously the ethical issues and the
fact that it's not humane to eradicate these species and
these individual animals who are just following their instincts and
feeding themselves in their family. But yeah, I think community
education and the grassroots element is really critical.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
And you know it's funny that, you know mentioned you know,
if you remove them or eradicate them, something else just
moves in. And people that work with feral cat counties
say that all the time. With the feral cat counties,
it's the same thing. You know, if you don't want
feral cats, they're okay, fine, but you know, if you
take all these cats out, you just have another cat's

(51:33):
moving in and taking over that territory. So it's just
a never ending because you do have the feral cats
out there. I mean, obviously we can't get around it
at this point in time. But yeah, they say that
same thing all the time, and it's true, if you
remove one, you're going to have something else move in
to take that place.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Yeah, and again, you know, feral cats another issue that
has a whole bunch of pieces to it. But you know,
I mean the large part of the problem is is
people continuing to abandon cats, right In other words, yeah,
the feral cat population is being fed by a human behavior, right, Yes,
not simply most definitely reproducing. And so again it's it

(52:12):
comes down to us looking at our behavior and the
impact we're having and making changes to a healthy ecosystem,
and sometimes people resist change.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
It can be hard.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Well, yeah, and in the beginning, I mean maybe not
necessarily now, because we've probably had generations of cats out
there now that are reproducing before you know, you could
get to them to get them fixed. So in the beginning, yes,
people threw the cats out there, and before people start
taking over and trying to get the colonies or the
cats you know, together and get them fixed and stuff

(52:43):
like that. I'm sure that they reproduced, you know, at
least a couple of generations, but hopefully that's been impacted
with the spay and neutering of the feral cat populations
and things like that. But you still do, like you said,
have the people that just abandon their cats, and it's like,
you know, I don't know how to stress this, and

(53:05):
any cat rescue person will tell you the same thing.
You have a domestic indoor cat. You can't just take
that domestic indoor cat and throw it outside and think
it's necessarily going to adjust to that type of life.
It very well may not.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
It could have.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
If there's already any kind of a cat population out
there that's wild, they could very well gang up on
your new cat and attack it and possibly kill it.
It doesn't mean it's going to know how to hunt
for itself because it's probably never been taught any of
that stuff as a kitten. So you know, you literally
are subjecting your indoor domesticated cat to a life of

(53:44):
horrible you know, existence or no life. It just really depends. Plus,
they're not going to know the dangers you know of
the coyotes and the hot well I'm not saying the
coyotes bull, but the owls and the hawks are another
huge danger out there. And even you know, just living
outside with streets and things like that in cars, they
don't know about any of that stuff. So and then

(54:07):
that really air tastes me is when someone has declawed
their cat, even if it's just the front and they
just throw them outside too. It's like, what is wrong
with you. You can't do that.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
So yeah, I mean as a general matter, I would
say that feral cats are a huge.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Problem for ecosystems.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
Oh yeah, abandoning your pet, whatever the species, frankly, I
mean there's a lot of different species in a lot
of different parts of the country that people whether we're
talking about turtles or snakes or things. But if you
have a pet that you no longer want, you should
never simply take it someplace outdoors and dump it right like.
That has a negative consequence to the ecosystem. Yes, it's

(54:45):
potentially a very unpleasant experience for your pet as well,
but you should always try and take it to a
humane society or you know, find.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Another home for it.

Speaker 3 (54:54):
But unleashing it into the wild is an unkind thing
to that particular animal as well as to the ecosystem as.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
A whole, and most definitely, most definitely, so yeah, best
option is just take them to a shelter. I mean,
and I know the shelters are full and everything right now.
So literally, if you can rehome your pet if you
need to for whatever reason, you know, try to do that,
you know, but then also keep in mind that with
everybody full, if you need to relinquish your pet. It

(55:24):
may take a little bit of time for the shelter
to get space, because I know that situation when you're
full and you have someone demanding because they've got to
move like today and they can't take their pet with them.
You have to make room as a public shelter for
that pet to come in. So now you have to
make the choice of what animal's now going to be

(55:47):
put down to make space. So you know, if you
guys can when you know, if you'd had just a
little bit more time, you might have been able to
find the rescue group possibly that could take that animal
or make other arrangements get foster. But you know, so
so also keep that in mind, guys. I'm trying not
to get off the coyote thing too much, but keep
that in mind when you're doing that as well. But anyway,

(56:08):
so let's go back to our coyotes since that's our
podcast tonight. Our PSAs are done.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
So it is all related.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Yes, it is all related because whether it's a cat,
a dog, or like you said, turtle, snake, bird, it
does it affects the ecosystem when you put them out there.
It's a definite effect on stuff if they survived, especially,
you know, because a lot of them, I'm honestly don't
think that they even survive out there on their own.
So I mean, they just don't know how to do

(56:41):
it after, you know, living inside and being domesticated like
they are. So anyway, okay, so I'm sure you, like me,
I have heard a coyote howl. But for someone who's
maybe never heard that, how would you describe that experience?

Speaker 3 (57:00):
Oh, it's that's it's hard to describe. It's you know,
coyotes aren't called song dogs because they have such an
incredible range of vocalizations.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
And barks and yips and howls. It's such a for me,
just a magical sound.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
I think it's it's a perfect soundtrack to a beautiful
sunset or sunrise.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
It tends to be. In my experience. I've been lucky
enough to sit and listen to both wolves and coyotes howling, and.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Not together in the same place, mind you, but I've
heard both, and I would say the coyote howl.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Is a higher pitch mm and sounds more joyous in general.
For me, the wolves when.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
They howl always have this sort of soulful melancholy quality
to their mm howls, and for coyotes, it it just
it's it's a higher note and it it sounds more
celebratory and and I think you know that's their way
of communicating their low, both two members of their pack
and the members of other packs.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
And it's another myth about coyotes.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
You know, they howl to celebrate a kill or something
like that, which is not the case. Typically they're howling
to alert other coyotes to their location.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
And also a lot of times at the end of
the day, what you hear is parents howling and they're
young responding, and then.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Because they may have been in different parts of the
territory during the day, the howl is where they will
then all come together.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
And so you know, one or two will start.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
Howling and others will call back from a different place,
and then they'll run towards the ones that started the
howl and all howl together and it's such such a
beautiful family moment.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Yeah, I know, it's pretty We hear them out here
where because they I'm in a small rural community and
they come in here at night and stuff, and you
can hear them out there. You've been in howling and
stuff like that while they're in the town and stuff.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
So all sweet.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yeah, So if coyotes could send humans one message, what
do you think it would be.

Speaker 3 (59:10):
Well, if I were going to speak on behalf of coyotes,
I would say that coyotes would tell us that we
are sentient beings worthy of respect and empathy, that we
bond with mates for life. We are dedicated parents and
just trying to survive, and we need the same things

(59:31):
that you do, food and water, shelter.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
A place to raise our young.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
If you don't want us in the neighborhood, then don't
provide these things for us, and stop the destruction of
our habitat and leave us space because right now we
have fewer and fewer.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Places to go.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
And if we are in the neighborhood, then please don't
feed us and drive slowly at in desk in near
parks to avoid hitting us. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
It's funny, people, because I love about an hour away
from Tucson, and different people that I've known, they have
come and visited and stuff. If they go into say
oh my gosh, we've seen a coyote and Tucson running
through it, I'm like, yeah, Well, should it have been
in the city. Well, yeah, it's adapt thing. You know
that we are encroaching in their neighborhoods. So yeah, they

(01:00:20):
do come in out of the desert and into the
city in the urban areas because yeah, it is easier
to find food. So if you see one intown in Tucson, yeah,
I mean, it's not abnormal. So I know, they're just amazing, like,
oh my gosh. Same with Havelena. If they see a Havelena,
Oh my gosh, we've seen Havelna. Well yeah, yeah, they all.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
Come into town too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
Yeah, Yeah, they're just amazed though, because especially if it's
like my family all loves back East, then if they
come out and visit, they're just amazed with that. I'm like,
it happens.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
So how can people out there support a Project Coyote
or get involved with your work? I mean, do you
want to throw some website Inmple or contact imple out there?

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
So people can come to our website, which is www
dot Project Coyote dot org. We have a ton of
resources on our website that are helpful and so we have,
as I mentioned, a ranting an agricultural program. We have
a compassionate Coexistence program, so community members who might want

(01:01:29):
to start spreading the word about how to coexist with
coyotes and other native carnivores. We have all sorts of
downloadable materials, flyers, signs about not feeding coyotes, and all
sorts of resources for coexistence tips. We also the program
that I coordinate, the Keeping It Wild Youth Education and
outreach program. We just launched our Compassionate Coexistence curriculum units

(01:01:53):
and I'm super excited. We have three different sets of
curriculum design for K two and then one for grades
three five, and then another one for grades sixty eight
and there's about five lessons within each of those units
for those grade levels that are really an incredible resource
in humane education for teachers, and they're free. They can

(01:02:14):
download them on our website again, So that's another way
that people can find more information and help spread the
Compassionate Coexistence mission around their own communities. And then people
can reach out to us. Info at Projectcoyote dot org
is the general email box. My email is Skillingsworth at

(01:02:37):
Projectcoyote dot org. And if people are interested in classroom
presentations or community presentations about coexistence with coyotes or other
native carnivores.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
They can email us and we can start a dialogue
about doing.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
Something, whether in person or over zoom.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Very nice, Very nice. Well, we're getting here to the
end of the podcast, so to close it out, what's
one thing you hope listeners will take away from this
conversation about coyotes.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
I think it would be that I would hope that
everyone listening has an increased understanding of coyotes and an
increased appreciation for coyotes and other wildlife and their role
in ecosystems. And I would hope that people take away
the fact that if you have the opportunity to observe wildlife,

(01:03:32):
whether it's a coyote or another species, that having a
glimpse into these wild lives is a gift, and that
we can minimize the potential for conflict by maintaining good
boundaries and our own conduct in our neighborhoods, and that
we can coexist with compassion and peacefully and enjoy these

(01:03:55):
beautiful wild neighbors.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
That's awesome message for ending out the program, and hopefully
more people will start to, you know, get a better
understanding of coyotes and how to live you know and
coexist with them more peacefully and not trying to eradicate
them as much. And you know, and then the other
thing is is you also got to understand again you
can't eradicate any of the higher predators. You know that

(01:04:24):
the coyote might be prayed for as well, because again,
like Sarah said, it's all a chain and it's all
the ecosystem, and they help to keep the populations down
for each individual species.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
That's why we have predators in prey and things like
that to do those kinds of things.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
So yeah, it's all.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Connected, yep, exactly. So well, Sarah, I appreciate you being
on the podcast this evening, and I will also put
your website up on my Facebook page for the podcast,
so if people happen to be there, they can go
to your website if they want more information as well.
And I appreciate you coming on and just spelling some

(01:05:05):
of the myths and getting some more information out there
for us on coyotes. And I'm just gonna go ahead
and announce my next couple podcasts I have coming up.
You are welcome to stay on why do that if
you'd like, And you are also welcome to jump off
to go finish up anything you need to do.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
So all right, well, thank you very much for inviting
me to come have a conversation about coyotes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
It's been a pleasure and have a greaty thing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
All right, Thanks Sarah, you too, and again thanks for
being on. I appreciate it my pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Bye.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Now all right everybody, So Sarah's jumped off the phone there,
so let me just go ahead and tell you guys
my upcoming podcast. And again, thank you to Sarah for
being on this evening. It was awesome talking with her

(01:05:59):
about the cootes and learning more about them. It was
a lot of fun talking with her and hearing some
of the things. And yes, if you ever get to
hear at coyote how I totally agree with what she
said between the coyote and the wolf howling as well,
that's they do have that little bit of that different sound.
So anyway, with that being said, my next upcoming podcast

(01:06:24):
is going to be on October second, and I'm going
to have Liz Clifton up with me. She is a
calm meditative mentor and she uses her techniques for not
only people to help find calm within them, but also

(01:06:46):
for animals, and that's awesome because you know, a lot
of people don't understand that we tend to telegraph our
emotions and things like that to our animals and how
we're feeling. So you know, if we can help ourselves
be calmer, we can help our dogs be calmer. And
and Liz is going to be on the show to help,

(01:07:09):
well not help, but talk about some of the different
techniques and things that she does and maybe give us
some tips on how we can help to find more
calm for us. So that's going to be on October second,
the Animal Connection Finding Calm together with Liz, and then
after that I am going to have doctor Phillip urso

(01:07:31):
on We're going to have some bison dialogues. Guys, we're
going to be talking all about bison with Philip. He's
going to come on and give us all sorts of
information about bison and you know, some facts about them
and how they live and a bunch of other information
and talk just a little bit about staying safe around

(01:07:58):
these wild animals and interacting with them and stuff like that,
because I'm sure many of you have seen that a
lot of people think it's a great idea to get
out and try to approach a bison, you know, whether
to get pictures, feed at whatever they think they're doing,
and then they end up getting terribly hurt. So we're
going to touch on that just a little bit as well.

(01:08:20):
But anyway, I'm excited to have him come on the program,
So that'll be on October sixteenth, So hopefully you guys
will be able to come on back and listen to
the next couple of podcasts that I have coming up
in October. I'm looking forward to talking with both of
those guys. And with that we've gone just a little

(01:08:43):
bit over tonight. I want to say thank you to
you guys for sticking on here until we finished up,
and I hope you all enjoyed the podcast tonight with
Sarah from Project Coyote and got to learn a little
bit more about coyotes and living with them compatibly and
urban settings and stuff like that. So all right, guys,

(01:09:04):
you all stay safe, have a great weekend, and come
on back in a couple of weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
By now,