Tonight we’re chatting with Illustrator Clint Langley and writer Chris McAuley about SHADOWS OF THE STOKERVERSE, a new illustrated story book launched on Kickstarter and soon to come out from Scratch Comics. After the hugely successful launch of the comic book series "Dracula The Return: Cult Of The White Worm" Scratch Comics and the equally successful launch of the Stokerverse Role Playing Game released by Nightfall Games, which featured the stunning artwork of 2000ad comic art legend Clint Langley (ABC Warriors, Slaine, WarHammer 4000), ideas started to flow between Chris McAuley, Clint Langley and team to find an exciting way to expand the Stokerverse beyond Dracula himself.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Castle Talk, where we talk to
writers and creators of today's genre worlds. I'm your host,
Jason Henderson, publisher at castle Bridge Media, home of the
Castle of Horror anthology series. Tonight we're chatting with illustrator
Clint Langley and writer Chris McCauley about Shadows of the
Stoker Verse, a new illustrated storybook launched on Kickstarter and
(00:30):
soon to come out from Scratch Comics. This is a
follow up to the comic book series Dracula the Return
a Cult of the Whiteworm, which came out just a
few years ago. We talked actually just a few years
ago in twenty twenty two about culture the White Worm.
And now Chris and Clint you're back. Now. Before I
say hello, let me just tell you a little bit
(00:51):
about who you guys are. Chris, you're a best selling,
award winning writer. You've been involved in a number of
different franchisees and we were just talking about how you
have a new anime that's that's getting that's that's getting responses.
And if you're going to correct me and it's not
an anime, it's amonga I apologize and we'll find out
(01:12):
because you're a multimedia guy, and Clint Langley, Clint Langley
is a Titan in the world of fantasy and science
fiction art, and uh, you've been involved with two thousand
and ady and and the work that you've been doing
in this Stoker Verse universe so called for reasons that
(01:32):
I am hoping one of you guys will explain to
me is stunning and uh and reminds me of Basil Gogo.
So I'm very excited to talk to you guys about
the Stoker Verse. I'm a Dracula fanatic myself, and I
think it will be it will be great. So Clint
and Chris welcome. It's it's lovely, it's lovely to meet you,
(01:55):
and I could, I could. I don't remember who I
spoke to about Dracula's return called to the White Worm,
but because I'm pretty sure that Chris and I talked,
and Clinton you may have been on as well. But
one thing I remember for certain is that you guys
had this very clear vision of Dracula that that was
very resonant for me, because there's so many different Draculas
(02:18):
out there, right, but you had a very different vision
where it was like the thing to think about is
that this guy would be rank, he would be he
would be he's a corpse, and he would be very
scary and and if you extrapolate from that, it gives
you a look at a very dark world stemming from
from from Stoker's Dracula. So Okay, I've talked enough now,
(02:38):
and now from now on I'm just going to be
asking questions and it's going to be your show. So
tell me about whichever one of you wants to take it.
Tell me about what is the Stoker verse? And then
this new illustrated storybook, how does it fit into the
Stoker Verse.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Well, I'll let you go on that, Chris, I think
you're the expert on that.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, well Stoke reverse with Deck or Stuber. So that's
why it's called Sti Reverse, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah, who was a descendant of Brown Starker?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, yeah, great grand nephew. So we created this sort
of be a multi media franchise that looks at the
you know, the the original Dracula, so not the Hollywood Dracula,
not the sexy vampire image as we talked about I
think in your previous show, Jason. But yeah, that's where
(03:30):
it stemmed from There were one hundred and twenty pages
that were removed from the original novel, and Decker and
I used those pages to you know, basically recreate the
original vision of Bram Stuber. There are characters that were
in there that were removed. There were you know, one
of the most fascinating aspects for me is that Dracula
(03:53):
when he came to London, it was very clear he
wasn't common for a bit he called, you know, there
was no romance involve He was coming to the London
to take over the Victorian Empire. And there's some fascinating
scenes that Stroker had written where Dracula extoes violent socialism.
Uh and he was the epitome of the Nietzschean uber image.
(04:17):
Fascinating to me because you know, MEETSI warned it, once
you start to remove you know, he talks about God
is dead. But really what he was saying is that
once we start to remove you know, mythological morality, you'll
end up with individuals who will create their own form
of morality. And that's really what Dracula is. It's all about,
(04:41):
certainly more intellectual individual than what we get with the
Hollywood films. I am not a fan of vampire films
at all. I find them to be pretty lyricrous and nonsensical.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Why why don't why don't you like vampire film? Because
I can't? I know there are a number, are there
any event, Let's do it this way. Give me an
example of I like a vampire film if it does a.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Thing I think the I think the Nostrati film that
came out last year will be the closest. You know.
I don't mind that. I don't mind Lost Boys Thirty
Days of Night. But most vampire films are fixated upon
the vampire being a sexual predator, and really what the
vampire is a warning against venereal diseases. It's you would
(05:30):
not want to get fucked by all of these things,
and you couldn't get fucked by one of these things,
don't we Because they're rotten, they have no they have
no penis. I mean, that's why vampires are orally fixiated,
you know.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Just to add to that, I mean I recently only
recently watched No Ratu. I mean, I'm a big fan
of the director, and I have to I was mismerized
by it as a movie. But I get what Chris
is saying. I think one of the tricky things was
especially actually when I did Stoke of Us, it was
trying to get rid of everything I'd seen on Dracula movies,
(06:04):
all the sort of you know, although I kind of
grew up with the Hammer horror movies, we we all
have this kind of almost cartoon vision of Count Dractcula.
And I mean, I think I've spoken to Chris before
on on Francis for Coppler's Dracula, but I have a
very soft spot for that movie, mainly because it did
(06:27):
kind of it was like a fantasy of all the
Hammer horror as I grew up with as a kid.
But but he did it really well. I'm sure, and
I can argue on this all day long, but I
certainly do.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
If you want to argue about that, I got you're
you're pretty, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I think with with with the latest nos Ferratu, what
I thought was really refreshing. Actually I was quite surprised
when I saw Nosratu in the movie that he actually
wasn't too far off what what Chris and I sort
of would kind of creats him with the Stokes and
I'm you know, him to look like an old warrior
really rather than a sort of debonair kind of you know,
(07:08):
ladies man.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Actually, the shambling, revivified corpse of an old warrior is
what he looks like in that in that movie, and yeah,
you know it like basically a zombie in a in
a mink, like he's just guy's got this big I
love that movie. That was ari Aster, right.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
The it's no, I think that was Edgar was it?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so I do love his films
as well, Midsummer and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Fabulous. But you know, the funny thing is you play
the process of the mind association and and to go,
what's your favorite eampire movie? And my my favorite vampire
movie I'm looking over at it because I know it's
on this shelf is h is Daughters of Darkness, which
is a Belgian sexy vampire movie from the seventies. To me,
I love especially of the seventies that era of was that.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
But the Dance of the Vampire is the run of
Plansky movie.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
No, that one is hard for me to watch because
it's so unfunny, you know, it's it's and I don't
mean like it's offensive unfunny, I mean like it's dull
and unfunny, but it did look a lot like the
nineteen sixty three Kiss of the Vampire, So I think that,
you know, he does a cool thing. I means Polansky
is very talented, but it's a comedy and that's a
(08:27):
that's tough. You guys have this very clear vision of
the world that is stemming from the Irish writer Brown
Stoker's novel and then ballooning out into a new universe
and in in shadows of the Stoker Verse, which is
the new project. You have a bunch of stories exploring it.
(08:47):
I was reading one which is which actually brings in
count Orlock of the public domain, you know, No Speratu
and establishment that not only are they two different characters,
which would standard and since one is in Germany, but
they're actually also both Draculas because orlac is just is
a descendant of the Draculas, or is a cousin of
(09:09):
the Draculas, which is so funny and cool, Chris that
that you've you've found a way to go this is
how he's Dracula.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
And also or Yeah, there's a there's a little bit
of the whole thing that you know from Dracula. Kim
Nos Ferrati the film, right, Yeah, and there's that I
do in certain subtexts within that's the particular sort of
novela you know, I I sort of play on the
legal issues that the Stoker family had initially with nos
(09:40):
Ferrati as well. I do have a little subtext in
there and Strongest as well. Uh and you know, putting
Carmela in there, now, that's what interests me when rested
me the most about whenever I started creating the Stoker verse.
It's actually not Dracula. Dracula's the but there's there's a
(10:02):
there's a whole universe around Dracula, around you know, this
gothic hell raiser style universe that's been created. Dracula is
like the god level tier character. And yeah, but there's
you know, there there's a whole whole host of characters
in and around that as well, a little bit like
(10:23):
Penny Dreadful in a way. It's a more violent Penny Dreadful.
But yeah, I find that when I wrote that particular
story again, it was like looking at Nosferata, who he
was all of that sort of you know, I wrote
him as a as somebody who was like an alchemist
who was you know, singing part, and then whenever he
(10:44):
gets the part, it's actually crupt that completely crops his
body and his mind as well. And I think that's
the you know, the inversion of you know, Christiano, if
you want to call that way with the sacrament of blood.
So I go into that, I go into a lot
of I mean, in shadows of Stocker verse. I think
(11:05):
it's my most satanic, but yet I did go into
a lot of that. I go into a lot of
the stuff with with Aleister Crowley as well. Bramstubber knew
Alster Crowley. I mean, we believe that Bramstocker was involved
in the Order of the Golden Dawn. He certainly was
a freemason. I'm a freemason. Bramstubber was a freemason, and
(11:25):
so was the person that we believe that that Dracula
was based on, Sir Henry Irving. So Bramstucker claimed that
Dracula is a true story in his in his preface,
and you know, obviously not the vampires, but it was
about this individual, Henry Irving, Bramstocker was the manager of
because Stucker was the manager of the Lyceum Theater as well,
(11:49):
and it was. It was a warning about Bramstucker said,
it was a very real and present warning and it
was all about Henry Irving.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And in the way of was he you so he
knows Henry Irving? He has this very enmeshed life working
with Henry Irving, and is he is he making a
Please forgive me for this question, but this kind of
gets it. I'm really curious. Do you think that when
you say that Dracula was based on Henry Irving, do
(12:18):
you mean in the way that Ruthman was based on
Byron that He's like, I'm taking this guy and I'm taking.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
His qualities, very very story about it. Yeah, okay, And
it actually came from Irving's portrayal of Metastophales and Gertz's
feist and that was a big influence on on Hydrachula
was created. So you know, Dracula was originally kind Man
deval Man devil. He was supposed to be the Devil's
(12:45):
Devil's for the Dallas interpretation and earth now you see
that it survives in the novel. He picked off the
off the shelf because whenever he signed them for Carfax Abbe,
he signed it a kind man de volts a bit
of an in joke, but you know, very no title
of Dracula wasn't Dracula. It was it was the un Dead.
And you know, Stucker's publisher basically said, look, that's not
(13:10):
gonna fly. We want a one word for the title.
So Stucker went into the London library and find a
book written by a leisure art He was a Scottish
writer and she had written a book called The Lamb
Beyond the Forest and that was all about Romania and
Romanian superstitions and histories, and yep, he finds, you know,
this Dracula, the Son of the Dragon, and I thought, okay,
(13:32):
I'll use that, but it's not really based and glad
the third, like you know, the original original Tracula isn't
based on Bladford. You kind of see that in chapter
two of Dracula, where you know, Jonathan Harker's chatting to
him and he's all over the place like he's you know,
he's got bloodlines from you know, gypsies and all sorts
(13:53):
of things going on there. So it's very unclear as
who Dracula really is, which I love. In Shadows of
the Stoker verse like postulate that Dracula has actually lived
so long that he's got a form of dementia. But yes,
he's been all these he's been all these things and
all these people, but you just can't remember any of
it clearly because he's got he's got a form of demension.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
He's lived.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
He's lived too though.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I love that. That's fantastic because then you don't. It's
so it's so pedantic and ultimately unimportant to debate about
whether weather Dracula coheres with your memory of Lady Impaler. Like,
it's just not important because Broker sorry Stoker did not
per se. He can't go as deep into studying lad
(14:36):
the Impaler as we can, you know, because we have
access to more history than he does.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
But go ahead, Yeah, And Shadows of the Stoper Verse is
a is a very different book because it's driven by
Clint's art, so that you know, the process would be
initially the process was, I was like with Clint's art
and then creating stories based on clint sart.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Do you want to tell us about that? Clint? Uh
uh like? And and tell us how like what was
the brief called come up with some stuff? And then
you guys got together and pitched ideas like how did
it come together?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
We well, first by working on the Stoker Verse role
playing game with Nightfall Games, and I was given a
pretty free range to just just get very creative with
creating the artwork, which is which is why I think
it sort of sort of stands out that the work
(15:26):
compared to some of my novel covers and Games Workshop
Warhammer covers. So I worked on that for about I
suppose it would have been about six months, creating lots
of artwork. Some of the artwork didn't go into the book,
some of it some of it wasn't finished. It was
just I was really just, yeah, just mass producing just
(15:48):
artworks as I felt, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
The word inspired by this world.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, inspired by the world, but also trying not to,
like I said earlier, not to end up doing actually
with a red cape and all that sort of stuff.
And after I completed the book and I was really
happy with the results, I sort of just carried on
drawing sort of in my spare time during Stoke of
Verse stuff, and and I forget quite worked. I think
(16:17):
I contacted Chris and sort of said, how about we'll
work on something together. And that's where I think Shadows
of the Stoker verse sort of came about. There was
also I was I did an image for another book
with Scratch Comics for Shame, and that was to Live
Dinosaurs and Cowboys, which I believe also Chris was involved with.
(16:39):
So that's kind of how we got together to work
on the shadows of the me.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That like in your image, I'm looking at the Doctor
of Death and he's a he's a plague doctor character
and Victorian plague mask. Do you mean that you would
be inspired and you'd create an image like this and
then go back, Well, I know how.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It worked with some of the images were just like
Chris and he kind of he ran with them as
as as ideas and created wonderful, wonderful horrific stories around
around the imagery. But with the Doctor Deaf, one that
was Chris had actually sent me when I started reading
through the different stories. So some of the stories are
very much inspired by Chris's writing. And I'd say it's
(17:24):
fifty fifty. So it was a fabulous story. The first
story I read, the Doctor Deaf, and so I just
kind of got cracking with it.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Really, I think I think it's it's going to be
wonderful because I love the idea that this is an
illustrated prose collection. You know, and by the way, I'm
not saying like there's an occasional image. It is a
slickly illustrated, beautiful production. But it's a prose collection of
short stories, which means you have so much more doubt
(17:53):
that one can go in as a writer than if
you were just writing scripts. I say just, I mean,
it's a skill in it's on. But if you're writing
scripts for comics, you're very you know, you can't get
as much as much story. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Which the role playing book was to make the whole
book a sort of experience, a beautiful experience, not just
a book full of text and and like panels of artwork.
The artwork is there to be to sort of add
to the atmosphere and the emotion of the stories, rather
than actually say this is what happened. You know, you
(18:29):
know you're reading the story. You don't need me to
tell you exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
What happened every part of it. But do you remember
John J. Mooth's Dracula graphic novel.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I don't remember that graphic novel, but I know his work.
I loved his work.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
So he did. He did a Dracula back in the right.
But what was interesting about it was it was a
so called graphic novel, but it was really just an
illustrated pros not because there were only a single image,
each pay with with caption and and so it enabled
him to do it as a as a prose story.
And the very much like what you're doing here. The
(19:08):
image sets the mood and and you don't have to
worry about going back to look at sequential art and
all of that functional stuff for telling a comic story.
It's it was it was anyway, that's a That's what
this makes me think of, even though the story styles
are very different. Uh you know that that that is
that's very much here. So talk to me if if
(19:30):
you could. And uh uh, Chris, I'd also love to
hear what kind of responses did you get to cull
to the White Worm? I mean, you know, have you
have you have the readers responded to a super dark
version of of Dracula. It seemed to work.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Okay, you know, I think we we think I can't remember,
but you know we we had we had some good seals, uh,
some ord or something. We go off I can barely
remember it. I basically when I finish a project, I shelve,
but yeah, I forget all about it. But yeah, I
(20:07):
mean it fascinated me whenever I whenever I created this
and I said the deck or like, I wanted to
put the white worm in there as well, because yeah,
I mean the Dracula and the white worm have Irish roots.
You know, the white worm from the and from Poch
is really where Halloween comes from. So the the creature
(20:30):
that the Irish used to sacrifice children to essentially and
saw you and that that's where the white worm comes from.
That's where Stuffer brought the white worm from. So that's
a fascination with With with all of that, there's the
will Celtech mythologies about the Fomorians, who are Reptilian race,
who who landed on in Irish soil and they were immortal,
(20:52):
may be killed if you cut their head off or
you drove a stack of wood through their heart. You
and see where all that influence snowbird with with dragon, right,
So you know that's really right, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
The Irish mythology. I mean, I worked on a story
called Slain and that was a Celtic Warrior, and I
also had like laurians In and Kronkrook and and also
was inspired by oh Colin, who, hell on? How have
you pronounced it? But I think I think that really
that's great that you've brought that into the Dracula universe.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeahally, it goes full circle because that's where I first
experienced Clint's work was it wasn't slain and Pat Moles,
who created Slam was my first mentor, tough hard mentor.
I love him dearly, tough hard mentor. But you know,
I remember reading Clint stuff in twenty eighty and it
(21:48):
was Bannon and my house when I was younger. My
mom grabbed the comics and ripped them up. I always
thought that was brilliant. He loved that, but it was
it's that transgressive nature of Clint's work I love, right,
And this is this is what we're trying to do.
We're not trying to rehash the same ship over and
over and over again. We're not trying to do this.
(22:09):
You know, creepy old man. He goes around graveyards with
some ridiculous these ridiculous fangs and you know, strains of
music behind him going don't dun we are we are
looking at what really makes Dracula tick, what makes it scary?
What what is it and what is it that Bram
was really trying to get it get at. I mean,
(22:31):
Hollywood sanitized Dracula so much. I mean, there's a fantastic
thing in the original book where you know, the three
women and they're not bright, they're just terms of weird sisters.
But these three women and we don't know what relationship
Dracula has with them, right, but you and what people
(22:51):
need to realize is that this is a fever nightmare
that Bram Stubber's having. You know, he he is a
young boy, had been very ill, and leeches have been
put on you know, if you imagine what it's like
then in the dark and the things sucking away your
your blood and your body. That's the image, the nightmare
image that he has, young boy. You know, these three
women so and then you know, Dracula comes, tears them
(23:14):
and off Harker says, you know, women can't have them
until following night. And they say, we're not going to
have in dates and then he produces a bit, oh
we have nothing, yeah, I remember, and the woman rapped
the bab apart, like it's a piece of KFC chicken, yeah,
in front, and then the mother comes and starts buyging
in the door, and then Dracula calls the wolves to
(23:35):
feed them as well. I mean, it's totally horrific, but
Hollywood sanity it all.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
You know, what was the first time you came up Well,
you may have found it first in the novel. The
first time I came across that scene was in the
Spanish version of Dracula, the movie, the Just Franco movie
from nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Just really was in with the with the mustache and
that's right, yeah, like Brahms Dracula. Yeah, I mean for
me or what I mean, I'm just back from Ireland.
There was a library, a library dad a kid to
manium which is my ole primary school actually Dracula Primary
School seven eight years of age. And you know, it
(24:14):
was funny going back into that library again. Obviously it's
all modern age and stuff, but there's a copy of
Dracula in there, top same copy, but there is a
copy of Dracula there.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Is the first time I read Drake, you know, I mean,
I was really surprised at how well why they haven't
just made a movie based on the book, you know,
because the book is so.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
So dark, and.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Also the whole thing that the book is all made
up of different accounts, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's one of the reasons it's hard to adapt is
because it's a paria, right like that.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So yeah, but I'd almost love to see it Russian
just kind of take the book, shoot it, you know,
see how it works.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I mean, that's exactly what Christopher lisaid back in Really
he said, he said, I would actually be willing to
do it again if somebody could shoot the book, you
know exactly. I gotta be honest, I don't know exactly
if that's possible, Like, like, you know, it sounds very hard.
It's a long book. It's made up of a lot
of letters. I don't know how to do.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
But nobody, nobody shot up the way brom Stop wrote it.
And you know, and that's that's the trick. Verse is
moving towards uh the screen.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Oh really, how would you what would you like to
see with that? Like you don't have to get into
specifics about story per se, but like in your mind,
because I love this concept of the Stoker verse and
expanding it and adding in the White Worm and all
this stuff in your mind, how does a movie like
that work? Like do you pick one of the stories
(25:46):
and like and do you convey the darkness of this universe? Like, like,
what what does that look like? To you? For me?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
It starts to Brown Stoker and and I think that
you know what you in chect is that Bram Stoker,
as a you know, as a real person, uh, meets
Dracula something like that, something like that. I have to
become trying to be really careful, but I have wrote
that in a Stoker Verse audio called Whisper in the Darkness,
(26:16):
and it is there that bram Stoker meets Dracula. And
in Shadows of the Stroke reverse there Bramstocker meets Dracula
as well. So it's always fascinated me, the creator meeting
the creature. And I think there's a lot of that now.
David Scale and a few Stoker historians postulated that you
(26:38):
know that there's been some form of repressed sexuality and
all of that sort of stuff that.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I mean, isn't there always? I mean that's sort of
so yes, But I mean it's.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
It's interesting. I'm not necessarily sure that it's about repressed sexuality.
I think it. I think it's very very much about
the fear of an aerial disease and Victorian London.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
But at least that's related to sexuality.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I mean there's yeah, I think I think it's I
think it's about the you know, the dangers of of
rompant sexuality rather than than repressed.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
If you will, because like the Three Sisters or the
Weird Sisters, there's something blatantly sexual about it, but it's
not good. I mean it's because you know, we read.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Into that that is blatantly sexual, but what if what
if it's not?
Speaker 1 (27:30):
For us? All strikes me as being at least glancingly sexual.
I mean it's I mean, I see what you're saying.
You're saying, Jason, don't get too wound up on the sexual.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Here's sexuality is good, right, Sexuality is very human. It's
actually one of the those shiven things you can you
can have these creatures are not human and you know
they're they're evil. It'd actually would be in the guess
of of sexuality. It's you know, this is why I
see that. Yeah, because think the penis isn't there, you know,
the I mean Lucy's an interest in case in point,
(28:04):
there's a there's a part in the novel always gets
sort of interpreted in a sexual way when Lucy says
the mena they're talking about the sitters or three sitters,
and she said, oh, I wish I could just marry
them all. And you know the Copla took that and went, oh, else,
she wants to have sex with all of them? Well, no,
what she's doing is that she's looking at each of
the sitters as if they would be you know, what
(28:24):
would they be like as husband's and more importantly, what
would they be like as fathers. You have you know,
the adventurous nature of Quincy Jones or sorry, Quincy Morris.
You've got the very serious intellectual nature of Jack Seward.
And you've got you know, the breeding and the money
of Homewood. Right, so all of all of those guys, yeah,
(28:45):
they would all make perfect fathers.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Now.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Taking that and what Lissy does with children, right, there's
there's more of a correalition that it's about it's about
having children. It's about having you know. Now when she
turns into when she's turned into a vampire, everything flips.
So she does everything that was pure about Lucy and
(29:07):
was you know, was kind and all that that flips
that the gis. But she has a great she even
as a as a vampire. She's a great desire for children.
And I think that's a vestige of you know, who
ever's left her humanity. But you know, Cols and Cy
for us even when she was human, and made her
(29:28):
quite rampantly sexual. And in fact, a lot of films
do that.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
It's a as a common interpretation. I mean, you're always
looking for an angle on on the on the character.
But let me ask you a question before we wrap up.
What other characters or concepts come into shadows the Stoker
verse the book? Because we've mentioned a couple mentioned Lair
of the White Worm, we mentioned to Orlac from Nostra
to who else? We mentioned bram Stoker himself.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
You've got believe you've got a wait. Who was the
guy who worked on the tarot cards sort of modern
in turp Fish and the Tarot Cards with Pamela Coleman Smith.
They were all friends, Bramstoker. Bromstocker actually met Pamela Coleman
Smith on the streets, brought her in and she was
the background artist for the Lyceum Theater and also was
(30:16):
the illustrated Lair of white Worm, and it was the
it was a rider. We had tarot cards that she illustrated.
And then you know, you have then Alistair Crowley obviously
and and all the all the dark Denians that that
he was involved with. You've got Franken strange creature who
I turned into a painter. He's an artist the East
(30:37):
End of London, so that the backstory is that you know,
he he gets to be East End of London and
he falls in with a lady who's a painter and
she tries to teach him how to paint. And initially
you can really paint in one color, but she teaches
him how to paint in many colors. You know. So
obviously that's the subtext there of emotion. And and she
(31:00):
gets rung dying by a carriage and you know that's
in the Struggle verse RPG. And I expand upon that
a little bit because you know, the original Frankenstein's creature
was was it was something you could talk you know again,
it's that whole Hollywood, Yeah, and all of that intellectual
without the emotional capability, because he had the emotional capability
(31:21):
of a child. And that's why then I have an
artist to mentor him, because especially a female artists that
sort of cipher for the emotion and being able to
understand emotion and be able to use turn emotion into
some creative because you know, for Frankenstein's creature, it was
quite destructive. But anyway, so we've got we've you know,
we've got that character in there, We've got the doctor
(31:43):
dead character. Who else do we have, Clint, I can barely.
I think we've got were wolves in there as we working.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
At around ye as well, wolves, monster. There's a lot
of evil folk kicking around in the book. There's a
there's a there's a story. Was it was it? Was
it mere flesh or false flesh?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Was that about the Butcher family? Was that a bit
the family that?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
I think that's the one, which is it's something to
do with I think yes, it could well be. It's
a kind of a grotesque kind of bogey bogie man
kind of.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the big stuff. Yeah,
that was the Yeah, I've only written this a year
ago and I can barely remember it.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I know exactly where you're coming from. Either, there's stuff
often and I don't remember, you know, did somebody asked
somebody you just read it last night? I asked you
a detail like, hey, were you thinking of the good
lady Duquane when you wrote this? And like maybe I
don't remember.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Actually, basically, I'm just a twisted, disturbed bastard table that
write these things. Uh, sometimes feeled by Clint's artworking, and
sometimes I don't know, feel by god knows what. But
it was it was a lot of fun to write.
I can say, you know, the shadows of the sticker
versus probably it was a very freeing experience because I
(33:10):
didn't have to sit down and go you know, I
didn't for this book. I didn't sit and go, well,
you know, it does this tie into some sort of
like you know, Bram stubber Lower, Yeah, it does a
little bit. But I just sat down with the book
and when and it was, you know, it was looking
at Clint's start work, and it was trying to do
clint start work justice. That's that's what stories we're all about.
I have great admiration for Clint as a as a person,
(33:33):
as an artist, and for me as a writer. It
was just making sure that those beautiful images were done
justice with some good storytelling, you know, and it's and.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
The whole book has been beautifully what I've seen of
it so far, it's been beautifully laid out with gorgeous
funds and it's just like, yes, an experience.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah. And I think that there are levels of the
Kickstarter where you have like cards like card Verse and
of some of the art correct and it's after that,
like in a big way, like I want a chewing
gum deck of these of these images because I said, Basil,
go go. But also and I don't, I don't know
(34:13):
if there's a frizettashness to some of it, you know,
I'm thinking of.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I've been inspired by artists like for Zetta and so
many different artists. It's probably why I kind of enjoy
working on projects like the Stoke of Verse, because it
allows me to do something They're completely different. There's no
there's no general style throughout the book. It kind of
jumps around from sort of realistic digital art to to
(34:40):
kind of stylized art to very painted art. I suppose
the idea is that I suppose it's it's there's there's
something for everybody in there, you know. I always just
like books which you had different styles, you know, throughout
the throughout the whole book. We did the same with
the Stoker Verse role playing game. You know, it's got
(35:01):
some and they've got some kookie art, you know, you know,
so it's but the stories are fabulous. Chris's stories are
absolutely fabulous. How much you know detail and world building,
he he he sort of crams into each story is amazing.
I used to intellectualize.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
I used to sit there, you know, I'll go on podcasts,
you know, because I've only been writing for four years,
to be to be completely honest to everybody, and I
used to sit you know, podcasts and try and intellectualize
the thing, and I'll be sitting on my decker be
all we will just listeners. Now I've got to the
stage of maturity and writing where I just want people
to read it and have a fucking good time reading
(35:39):
and just enjoyed the damn thing. And it's you know,
there's really nothing pretentious about about my work. What you
see to what you get. I hope people enjoy it.
I can't. I've tried at times, you know, there are
times within the Stoker Verse that I was trying to
write not like Bram Stubber, but trying to do like
the squeaky gothic horror. I can't really do speaky Gothic horror.
(36:01):
What I do is more of the cloud Barker ish.
I've collaborated with Clive Barker recently and what he said
to me was my work was like where he was
twenty thirty years ago. And he was like, for for
fuck's sake, don't lose that. That the real graphic body
horror stuff that.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
The years ago was Books of Blood and that was
a good place to be.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
So yeah, and that was that was a bit of
an inspiration for me too. I mean, you know, it's
interested in my background. It's always said in Ireland the
idiot son goes off the trend to be a priest.
But that was my background.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I went.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
I studied theology when I was very young, like when
I was seventeen eighteen, and I was I was always
fascinated by mythology. I was fascinating by how the story,
the moral storytelling, you know, regardless of what mythology you
believe in, you know, moral storytelling basically helped the human
race evolve and hand down various you know, whatever laws
(37:00):
to rebelieve and I was always fascinated by that, and
that was something that you know Stuber was as well.
Bram Stucker was absolutely completely obsessed with theology. It's what
the elements freemasonry, and Freemasonry is probably one of the
oldest forms of of, you know, a cult society. There's
a lot of things in there, and there's stuff in
(37:21):
there is Masonic. There's stuff that I've put in there
from my own knowledge of Freemasonry, and I'm not giving
away any secrets or anything like that. So there's an
eight brawler Freemason's listening to this, and don't be worrying
about that. But there are things that are very legitimately
in there that are Masonic, that would that would resonate
with the occult experiences that Bram Stubber would have had.
(37:42):
You know, I'm I always fascinated with Alister Crowley. I
don't think he was a good man at all, don't
get me wrong, but that's what makes him fascinating because
he was unapologetically he was. He was an unapologetic bastard.
He did his own thing, and you know, everybody likes
every likes a bastard like that, and he had a
true and some amount of knowledge and understanding of aspects
of the occult. And you know, I think he influenced
(38:07):
Bram Stoker a lot with with Dracula and with their
of the White Worm, those two in particular. I think
he influenced the Stoker but there's no real evidence for that,
I mean, with no avidence.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
But it's your place to You're the you're the writer,
so you have every right in the world to say
I think there's a connection here, and I'm going to
work on it all right. I'm glad we talked about
all the different stories that go into it, because because
I want to leave people with that that this you
should definitely check out the Kickstarter paid So if they're
(38:43):
searching on Kickstarter, they're looking for shadows of the Stoker Verse.
The book is going to come out from Scratch Comics
in October. However, if you're an early bird a Kickstarter backer,
you can get it in August. But but it's it's
very exciting to find that we're actually you're we're finally
going to be seeing it. And there's some wonderful examples
(39:05):
and different levels of support on Kickstarter. So that's that's
very very cool. I have been talking with Chris McCauley
and Clint Langley. Chris McCauley the writer and Clint Langley,
the artist of this book of stories that are accompanied
accompanied by these amazing full page pieces of art. It
is gorgeous and slick and I'm very excited to see it.
(39:29):
Thank you guys for spending time talking about your work,
and I hope you have a fantastic release. Just just
reach out at any any time and and we can
geek out even more about about Dracula.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Pleasure.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Thanks thanks for having us by
Hello, and welcome to Castle Talk, where we talk to
writers and creators of today's genre worlds. I'm your host,
Jason Henderson, publisher at castle Bridge Media, home of the
Castle of Horror anthology series. Tonight we're chatting with illustrator
Clint Langley and writer Chris McCauley about Shadows of the
Stoker Verse, a new illustrated storybook launched on Kickstarter and
(00:30):
soon to come out from Scratch Comics. This is a
follow up to the comic book series Dracula the Return
a Cult of the Whiteworm, which came out just a
few years ago. We talked actually just a few years
ago in twenty twenty two about culture the White Worm.
And now Chris and Clint you're back. Now. Before I
say hello, let me just tell you a little bit
(00:51):
about who you guys are. Chris, you're a best selling,
award winning writer. You've been involved in a number of
different franchisees and we were just talking about how you
have a new anime that's that's getting that's that's getting responses.
And if you're going to correct me and it's not
an anime, it's amonga I apologize and we'll find out
(01:12):
because you're a multimedia guy, and Clint Langley, Clint Langley
is a Titan in the world of fantasy and science
fiction art, and uh, you've been involved with two thousand
and ady and and the work that you've been doing
in this Stoker Verse universe so called for reasons that
(01:32):
I am hoping one of you guys will explain to
me is stunning and uh and reminds me of Basil Gogo.
So I'm very excited to talk to you guys about
the Stoker Verse. I'm a Dracula fanatic myself, and I
think it will be it will be great. So Clint
and Chris welcome. It's it's lovely, it's lovely to meet you,
(01:55):
and I could, I could. I don't remember who I
spoke to about Dracula's return called to the White Worm,
but because I'm pretty sure that Chris and I talked,
and Clinton you may have been on as well. But
one thing I remember for certain is that you guys
had this very clear vision of Dracula that that was
very resonant for me, because there's so many different Draculas
(02:18):
out there, right, but you had a very different vision
where it was like the thing to think about is
that this guy would be rank, he would be he
would be he's a corpse, and he would be very
scary and and if you extrapolate from that, it gives
you a look at a very dark world stemming from
from from Stoker's Dracula. So Okay, I've talked enough now,
(02:38):
and now from now on I'm just going to be
asking questions and it's going to be your show. So
tell me about whichever one of you wants to take it.
Tell me about what is the Stoker verse? And then
this new illustrated storybook, how does it fit into the
Stoker Verse.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Well, I'll let you go on that, Chris, I think
you're the expert on that.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, well Stoke reverse with Deck or Stuber. So that's
why it's called Sti Reverse, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah, who was a descendant of Brown Starker?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, yeah, great grand nephew. So we created this sort
of be a multi media franchise that looks at the
you know, the the original Dracula, so not the Hollywood Dracula,
not the sexy vampire image as we talked about I
think in your previous show, Jason. But yeah, that's where
(03:30):
it stemmed from There were one hundred and twenty pages
that were removed from the original novel, and Decker and
I used those pages to you know, basically recreate the
original vision of Bram Stuber. There are characters that were
in there that were removed. There were you know, one
of the most fascinating aspects for me is that Dracula
(03:53):
when he came to London, it was very clear he
wasn't common for a bit he called, you know, there
was no romance involve He was coming to the London
to take over the Victorian Empire. And there's some fascinating
scenes that Stroker had written where Dracula extoes violent socialism.
Uh and he was the epitome of the Nietzschean uber image.
(04:17):
Fascinating to me because you know, MEETSI warned it, once
you start to remove you know, he talks about God
is dead. But really what he was saying is that
once we start to remove you know, mythological morality, you'll
end up with individuals who will create their own form
of morality. And that's really what Dracula is. It's all about,
(04:41):
certainly more intellectual individual than what we get with the
Hollywood films. I am not a fan of vampire films
at all. I find them to be pretty lyricrous and nonsensical.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Why why don't why don't you like vampire film? Because
I can't? I know there are a number, are there
any event, Let's do it this way. Give me an
example of I like a vampire film if it does a.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Thing I think the I think the Nostrati film that
came out last year will be the closest. You know.
I don't mind that. I don't mind Lost Boys Thirty
Days of Night. But most vampire films are fixated upon
the vampire being a sexual predator, and really what the
vampire is a warning against venereal diseases. It's you would
(05:30):
not want to get fucked by all of these things,
and you couldn't get fucked by one of these things,
don't we Because they're rotten, they have no they have
no penis. I mean, that's why vampires are orally fixiated,
you know.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Just to add to that, I mean I recently only
recently watched No Ratu. I mean, I'm a big fan
of the director, and I have to I was mismerized
by it as a movie. But I get what Chris
is saying. I think one of the tricky things was
especially actually when I did Stoke of Us, it was
trying to get rid of everything I'd seen on Dracula movies,
(06:04):
all the sort of you know, although I kind of
grew up with the Hammer horror movies, we we all
have this kind of almost cartoon vision of Count Dractcula.
And I mean, I think I've spoken to Chris before
on on Francis for Coppler's Dracula, but I have a
very soft spot for that movie, mainly because it did
(06:27):
kind of it was like a fantasy of all the
Hammer horror as I grew up with as a kid.
But but he did it really well. I'm sure, and
I can argue on this all day long, but I
certainly do.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
If you want to argue about that, I got you're
you're pretty, but go ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I think with with with the latest nos Ferratu, what
I thought was really refreshing. Actually I was quite surprised
when I saw Nosratu in the movie that he actually
wasn't too far off what what Chris and I sort
of would kind of creats him with the Stokes and
I'm you know, him to look like an old warrior
really rather than a sort of debonair kind of you know,
(07:08):
ladies man.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Actually, the shambling, revivified corpse of an old warrior is
what he looks like in that in that movie, and yeah,
you know it like basically a zombie in a in
a mink, like he's just guy's got this big I
love that movie. That was ari Aster, right.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
The it's no, I think that was Edgar was it?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so I do love his films
as well, Midsummer and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Fabulous. But you know, the funny thing is you play
the process of the mind association and and to go,
what's your favorite eampire movie? And my my favorite vampire
movie I'm looking over at it because I know it's
on this shelf is h is Daughters of Darkness, which
is a Belgian sexy vampire movie from the seventies. To me,
I love especially of the seventies that era of was that.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
But the Dance of the Vampire is the run of
Plansky movie.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
No, that one is hard for me to watch because
it's so unfunny, you know, it's it's and I don't
mean like it's offensive unfunny, I mean like it's dull
and unfunny, but it did look a lot like the
nineteen sixty three Kiss of the Vampire, So I think that,
you know, he does a cool thing. I means Polansky
is very talented, but it's a comedy and that's a
(08:27):
that's tough. You guys have this very clear vision of
the world that is stemming from the Irish writer Brown
Stoker's novel and then ballooning out into a new universe
and in in shadows of the Stoker Verse, which is
the new project. You have a bunch of stories exploring it.
(08:47):
I was reading one which is which actually brings in
count Orlock of the public domain, you know, No Speratu
and establishment that not only are they two different characters,
which would standard and since one is in Germany, but
they're actually also both Draculas because orlac is just is
a descendant of the Draculas, or is a cousin of
(09:09):
the Draculas, which is so funny and cool, Chris that
that you've you've found a way to go this is
how he's Dracula.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
And also or Yeah, there's a there's a little bit
of the whole thing that you know from Dracula. Kim
Nos Ferrati the film, right, Yeah, and there's that I
do in certain subtexts within that's the particular sort of
novela you know, I I sort of play on the
legal issues that the Stoker family had initially with nos
(09:40):
Ferrati as well. I do have a little subtext in
there and Strongest as well. Uh and you know, putting
Carmela in there, now, that's what interests me when rested
me the most about whenever I started creating the Stoker verse.
It's actually not Dracula. Dracula's the but there's there's a
(10:02):
there's a whole universe around Dracula, around you know, this
gothic hell raiser style universe that's been created. Dracula is
like the god level tier character. And yeah, but there's
you know, there there's a whole whole host of characters
in and around that as well, a little bit like
(10:23):
Penny Dreadful in a way. It's a more violent Penny Dreadful.
But yeah, I find that when I wrote that particular
story again, it was like looking at Nosferata, who he
was all of that sort of you know, I wrote
him as a as somebody who was like an alchemist
who was you know, singing part, and then whenever he
(10:44):
gets the part, it's actually crupt that completely crops his
body and his mind as well. And I think that's
the you know, the inversion of you know, Christiano, if
you want to call that way with the sacrament of blood.
So I go into that, I go into a lot
of I mean, in shadows of Stocker verse. I think
(11:05):
it's my most satanic, but yet I did go into
a lot of that. I go into a lot of
the stuff with with Aleister Crowley as well. Bramstubber knew
Alster Crowley. I mean, we believe that Bramstocker was involved
in the Order of the Golden Dawn. He certainly was
a freemason. I'm a freemason. Bramstubber was a freemason, and
(11:25):
so was the person that we believe that that Dracula
was based on, Sir Henry Irving. So Bramstucker claimed that
Dracula is a true story in his in his preface,
and you know, obviously not the vampires, but it was
about this individual, Henry Irving, Bramstocker was the manager of
because Stucker was the manager of the Lyceum Theater as well,
(11:49):
and it was. It was a warning about Bramstucker said,
it was a very real and present warning and it
was all about Henry Irving.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And in the way of was he you so he
knows Henry Irving? He has this very enmeshed life working
with Henry Irving, and is he is he making a
Please forgive me for this question, but this kind of
gets it. I'm really curious. Do you think that when
you say that Dracula was based on Henry Irving, do
(12:18):
you mean in the way that Ruthman was based on
Byron that He's like, I'm taking this guy and I'm taking.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
His qualities, very very story about it. Yeah, okay, And
it actually came from Irving's portrayal of Metastophales and Gertz's
feist and that was a big influence on on Hydrachula
was created. So you know, Dracula was originally kind Man
deval Man devil. He was supposed to be the Devil's
(12:45):
Devil's for the Dallas interpretation and earth now you see
that it survives in the novel. He picked off the
off the shelf because whenever he signed them for Carfax Abbe,
he signed it a kind man de volts a bit
of an in joke, but you know, very no title
of Dracula wasn't Dracula. It was it was the un Dead.
And you know, Stucker's publisher basically said, look, that's not
(13:10):
gonna fly. We want a one word for the title.
So Stucker went into the London library and find a
book written by a leisure art He was a Scottish
writer and she had written a book called The Lamb
Beyond the Forest and that was all about Romania and
Romanian superstitions and histories, and yep, he finds, you know,
this Dracula, the Son of the Dragon, and I thought, okay,
(13:32):
I'll use that, but it's not really based and glad
the third, like you know, the original original Tracula isn't
based on Bladford. You kind of see that in chapter
two of Dracula, where you know, Jonathan Harker's chatting to
him and he's all over the place like he's you know,
he's got bloodlines from you know, gypsies and all sorts
(13:53):
of things going on there. So it's very unclear as
who Dracula really is, which I love. In Shadows of
the Stoker verse like postulate that Dracula has actually lived
so long that he's got a form of dementia. But yes,
he's been all these he's been all these things and
all these people, but you just can't remember any of
it clearly because he's got he's got a form of demension.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
He's lived.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
He's lived too though.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I love that. That's fantastic because then you don't. It's
so it's so pedantic and ultimately unimportant to debate about
whether weather Dracula coheres with your memory of Lady Impaler. Like,
it's just not important because Broker sorry Stoker did not
per se. He can't go as deep into studying lad
(14:36):
the Impaler as we can, you know, because we have
access to more history than he does.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
But go ahead, Yeah, And Shadows of the Stoper Verse is
a is a very different book because it's driven by
Clint's art, so that you know, the process would be
initially the process was, I was like with Clint's art
and then creating stories based on clint sart.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Do you want to tell us about that? Clint? Uh
uh like? And and tell us how like what was
the brief called come up with some stuff? And then
you guys got together and pitched ideas like how did
it come together?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
We well, first by working on the Stoker Verse role
playing game with Nightfall Games, and I was given a
pretty free range to just just get very creative with
creating the artwork, which is which is why I think
it sort of sort of stands out that the work
(15:26):
compared to some of my novel covers and Games Workshop
Warhammer covers. So I worked on that for about I
suppose it would have been about six months, creating lots
of artwork. Some of the artwork didn't go into the book,
some of it some of it wasn't finished. It was
just I was really just, yeah, just mass producing just
(15:48):
artworks as I felt, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
The word inspired by this world.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, inspired by the world, but also trying not to,
like I said earlier, not to end up doing actually
with a red cape and all that sort of stuff.
And after I completed the book and I was really
happy with the results, I sort of just carried on
drawing sort of in my spare time during Stoke of
Verse stuff, and and I forget quite worked. I think
(16:17):
I contacted Chris and sort of said, how about we'll
work on something together. And that's where I think Shadows
of the Stoker verse sort of came about. There was
also I was I did an image for another book
with Scratch Comics for Shame, and that was to Live
Dinosaurs and Cowboys, which I believe also Chris was involved with.
(16:39):
So that's kind of how we got together to work
on the shadows of the me.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That like in your image, I'm looking at the Doctor
of Death and he's a he's a plague doctor character
and Victorian plague mask. Do you mean that you would
be inspired and you'd create an image like this and
then go back, Well, I know how.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
It worked with some of the images were just like
Chris and he kind of he ran with them as
as as ideas and created wonderful, wonderful horrific stories around
around the imagery. But with the Doctor Deaf, one that
was Chris had actually sent me when I started reading
through the different stories. So some of the stories are
very much inspired by Chris's writing. And I'd say it's
(17:24):
fifty fifty. So it was a fabulous story. The first
story I read, the Doctor Deaf, and so I just
kind of got cracking with it.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Really, I think I think it's it's going to be
wonderful because I love the idea that this is an
illustrated prose collection. You know, and by the way, I'm
not saying like there's an occasional image. It is a
slickly illustrated, beautiful production. But it's a prose collection of
short stories, which means you have so much more doubt
(17:53):
that one can go in as a writer than if
you were just writing scripts. I say just, I mean,
it's a skill in it's on. But if you're writing
scripts for comics, you're very you know, you can't get
as much as much story. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Which the role playing book was to make the whole
book a sort of experience, a beautiful experience, not just
a book full of text and and like panels of artwork.
The artwork is there to be to sort of add
to the atmosphere and the emotion of the stories, rather
than actually say this is what happened. You know, you
(18:29):
know you're reading the story. You don't need me to
tell you exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
What happened every part of it. But do you remember
John J. Mooth's Dracula graphic novel.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I don't remember that graphic novel, but I know his work.
I loved his work.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
So he did. He did a Dracula back in the right.
But what was interesting about it was it was a
so called graphic novel, but it was really just an
illustrated pros not because there were only a single image,
each pay with with caption and and so it enabled
him to do it as a as a prose story.
And the very much like what you're doing here. The
(19:08):
image sets the mood and and you don't have to
worry about going back to look at sequential art and
all of that functional stuff for telling a comic story.
It's it was it was anyway, that's a That's what
this makes me think of, even though the story styles
are very different. Uh you know that that that is
that's very much here. So talk to me if if
(19:30):
you could. And uh uh, Chris, I'd also love to
hear what kind of responses did you get to cull
to the White Worm? I mean, you know, have you
have you have the readers responded to a super dark
version of of Dracula. It seemed to work.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Okay, you know, I think we we think I can't remember,
but you know we we had we had some good seals, uh,
some ord or something. We go off I can barely
remember it. I basically when I finish a project, I shelve,
but yeah, I forget all about it. But yeah, I
(20:07):
mean it fascinated me whenever I whenever I created this
and I said the deck or like, I wanted to
put the white worm in there as well, because yeah,
I mean the Dracula and the white worm have Irish roots.
You know, the white worm from the and from Poch
is really where Halloween comes from. So the the creature
(20:30):
that the Irish used to sacrifice children to essentially and
saw you and that that's where the white worm comes from.
That's where Stuffer brought the white worm from. So that's
a fascination with With with all of that, there's the
will Celtech mythologies about the Fomorians, who are Reptilian race,
who who landed on in Irish soil and they were immortal,
(20:52):
may be killed if you cut their head off or
you drove a stack of wood through their heart. You
and see where all that influence snowbird with with dragon, right,
So you know that's really right, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
The Irish mythology. I mean, I worked on a story
called Slain and that was a Celtic Warrior, and I
also had like laurians In and Kronkrook and and also
was inspired by oh Colin, who, hell on? How have
you pronounced it? But I think I think that really
that's great that you've brought that into the Dracula universe.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeahally, it goes full circle because that's where I first
experienced Clint's work was it wasn't slain and Pat Moles,
who created Slam was my first mentor, tough hard mentor.
I love him dearly, tough hard mentor. But you know,
I remember reading Clint stuff in twenty eighty and it
(21:48):
was Bannon and my house when I was younger. My
mom grabbed the comics and ripped them up. I always
thought that was brilliant. He loved that, but it was
it's that transgressive nature of Clint's work I love, right,
And this is this is what we're trying to do.
We're not trying to rehash the same ship over and
over and over again. We're not trying to do this.
(22:09):
You know, creepy old man. He goes around graveyards with
some ridiculous these ridiculous fangs and you know, strains of
music behind him going don't dun we are we are
looking at what really makes Dracula tick, what makes it scary?
What what is it and what is it that Bram
was really trying to get it get at. I mean,
(22:31):
Hollywood sanitized Dracula so much. I mean, there's a fantastic
thing in the original book where you know, the three
women and they're not bright, they're just terms of weird sisters.
But these three women and we don't know what relationship
Dracula has with them, right, but you and what people
(22:51):
need to realize is that this is a fever nightmare
that Bram Stubber's having. You know, he he is a
young boy, had been very ill, and leeches have been
put on you know, if you imagine what it's like
then in the dark and the things sucking away your
your blood and your body. That's the image, the nightmare
image that he has, young boy. You know, these three
women so and then you know, Dracula comes, tears them
(23:14):
and off Harker says, you know, women can't have them
until following night. And they say, we're not going to
have in dates and then he produces a bit, oh
we have nothing, yeah, I remember, and the woman rapped
the bab apart, like it's a piece of KFC chicken, yeah,
in front, and then the mother comes and starts buyging
in the door, and then Dracula calls the wolves to
(23:35):
feed them as well. I mean, it's totally horrific, but
Hollywood sanity it all.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
You know, what was the first time you came up Well,
you may have found it first in the novel. The
first time I came across that scene was in the
Spanish version of Dracula, the movie, the Just Franco movie
from nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Just really was in with the with the mustache and
that's right, yeah, like Brahms Dracula. Yeah, I mean for
me or what I mean, I'm just back from Ireland.
There was a library, a library dad a kid to
manium which is my ole primary school actually Dracula Primary
School seven eight years of age. And you know, it
(24:14):
was funny going back into that library again. Obviously it's
all modern age and stuff, but there's a copy of
Dracula in there, top same copy, but there is a
copy of Dracula there.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Is the first time I read Drake, you know, I mean,
I was really surprised at how well why they haven't
just made a movie based on the book, you know,
because the book is so.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
So dark, and.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Also the whole thing that the book is all made
up of different accounts, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's one of the reasons it's hard to adapt is
because it's a paria, right like that.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So yeah, but I'd almost love to see it Russian
just kind of take the book, shoot it, you know,
see how it works.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I mean, that's exactly what Christopher lisaid back in Really
he said, he said, I would actually be willing to
do it again if somebody could shoot the book, you
know exactly. I gotta be honest, I don't know exactly
if that's possible, Like, like, you know, it sounds very hard.
It's a long book. It's made up of a lot
of letters. I don't know how to do.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
But nobody, nobody shot up the way brom Stop wrote it.
And you know, and that's that's the trick. Verse is
moving towards uh the screen.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Oh really, how would you what would you like to
see with that? Like you don't have to get into
specifics about story per se, but like in your mind,
because I love this concept of the Stoker verse and
expanding it and adding in the White Worm and all
this stuff in your mind, how does a movie like
that work? Like do you pick one of the stories
(25:46):
and like and do you convey the darkness of this universe? Like, like,
what what does that look like? To you? For me?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
It starts to Brown Stoker and and I think that
you know what you in chect is that Bram Stoker,
as a you know, as a real person, uh, meets
Dracula something like that, something like that. I have to
become trying to be really careful, but I have wrote
that in a Stoker Verse audio called Whisper in the Darkness,
(26:16):
and it is there that bram Stoker meets Dracula. And
in Shadows of the Stroke reverse there Bramstocker meets Dracula
as well. So it's always fascinated me, the creator meeting
the creature. And I think there's a lot of that now.
David Scale and a few Stoker historians postulated that you
(26:38):
know that there's been some form of repressed sexuality and
all of that sort of stuff that.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I mean, isn't there always? I mean that's sort of
so yes, But I mean it's.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
It's interesting. I'm not necessarily sure that it's about repressed sexuality.
I think it. I think it's very very much about
the fear of an aerial disease and Victorian London.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
But at least that's related to sexuality.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
I mean there's yeah, I think I think it's I
think it's about the you know, the dangers of of
rompant sexuality rather than than repressed.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
If you will, because like the Three Sisters or the
Weird Sisters, there's something blatantly sexual about it, but it's
not good. I mean it's because you know, we read.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Into that that is blatantly sexual, but what if what
if it's not?
Speaker 1 (27:30):
For us? All strikes me as being at least glancingly sexual.
I mean it's I mean, I see what you're saying.
You're saying, Jason, don't get too wound up on the sexual.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Here's sexuality is good, right, Sexuality is very human. It's
actually one of the those shiven things you can you
can have these creatures are not human and you know
they're they're evil. It'd actually would be in the guess
of of sexuality. It's you know, this is why I
see that. Yeah, because think the penis isn't there, you know,
the I mean Lucy's an interest in case in point,
(28:04):
there's a there's a part in the novel always gets
sort of interpreted in a sexual way when Lucy says
the mena they're talking about the sitters or three sitters,
and she said, oh, I wish I could just marry
them all. And you know the Copla took that and went, oh, else,
she wants to have sex with all of them? Well, no,
what she's doing is that she's looking at each of
the sitters as if they would be you know, what
(28:24):
would they be like as husband's and more importantly, what
would they be like as fathers. You have you know,
the adventurous nature of Quincy Jones or sorry, Quincy Morris.
You've got the very serious intellectual nature of Jack Seward.
And you've got you know, the breeding and the money
of Homewood. Right, so all of all of those guys, yeah,
(28:45):
they would all make perfect fathers.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Now.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Taking that and what Lissy does with children, right, there's
there's more of a correalition that it's about it's about
having children. It's about having you know. Now when she
turns into when she's turned into a vampire, everything flips.
So she does everything that was pure about Lucy and
(29:07):
was you know, was kind and all that that flips
that the gis. But she has a great she even
as a as a vampire. She's a great desire for children.
And I think that's a vestige of you know, who
ever's left her humanity. But you know, Cols and Cy
for us even when she was human, and made her
(29:28):
quite rampantly sexual. And in fact, a lot of films
do that.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
It's a as a common interpretation. I mean, you're always
looking for an angle on on the on the character.
But let me ask you a question before we wrap up.
What other characters or concepts come into shadows the Stoker
verse the book? Because we've mentioned a couple mentioned Lair
of the White Worm, we mentioned to Orlac from Nostra
to who else? We mentioned bram Stoker himself.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
You've got believe you've got a wait. Who was the
guy who worked on the tarot cards sort of modern
in turp Fish and the Tarot Cards with Pamela Coleman Smith.
They were all friends, Bramstoker. Bromstocker actually met Pamela Coleman
Smith on the streets, brought her in and she was
the background artist for the Lyceum Theater and also was
(30:16):
the illustrated Lair of white Worm, and it was the
it was a rider. We had tarot cards that she illustrated.
And then you know, you have then Alistair Crowley obviously
and and all the all the dark Denians that that
he was involved with. You've got Franken strange creature who
I turned into a painter. He's an artist the East
(30:37):
End of London, so that the backstory is that you know,
he he gets to be East End of London and
he falls in with a lady who's a painter and
she tries to teach him how to paint. And initially
you can really paint in one color, but she teaches
him how to paint in many colors. You know. So
obviously that's the subtext there of emotion. And and she
(31:00):
gets rung dying by a carriage and you know that's
in the Struggle verse RPG. And I expand upon that
a little bit because you know, the original Frankenstein's creature
was was it was something you could talk you know again,
it's that whole Hollywood, Yeah, and all of that intellectual
without the emotional capability, because he had the emotional capability
(31:21):
of a child. And that's why then I have an
artist to mentor him, because especially a female artists that
sort of cipher for the emotion and being able to
understand emotion and be able to use turn emotion into
some creative because you know, for Frankenstein's creature, it was
quite destructive. But anyway, so we've got we've you know,
we've got that character in there, We've got the doctor
(31:43):
dead character. Who else do we have, Clint, I can barely.
I think we've got were wolves in there as we working.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
At around ye as well, wolves, monster. There's a lot
of evil folk kicking around in the book. There's a
there's a there's a story. Was it was it? Was
it mere flesh or false flesh?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Was that about the Butcher family? Was that a bit
the family that?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
I think that's the one, which is it's something to
do with I think yes, it could well be. It's
a kind of a grotesque kind of bogey bogie man
kind of.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the big stuff. Yeah,
that was the Yeah, I've only written this a year
ago and I can barely remember it.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I know exactly where you're coming from. Either, there's stuff
often and I don't remember, you know, did somebody asked
somebody you just read it last night? I asked you
a detail like, hey, were you thinking of the good
lady Duquane when you wrote this? And like maybe I
don't remember.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Actually, basically, I'm just a twisted, disturbed bastard table that
write these things. Uh, sometimes feeled by Clint's artworking, and
sometimes I don't know, feel by god knows what. But
it was it was a lot of fun to write.
I can say, you know, the shadows of the sticker
versus probably it was a very freeing experience because I
(33:10):
didn't have to sit down and go you know, I
didn't for this book. I didn't sit and go, well,
you know, it does this tie into some sort of
like you know, Bram stubber Lower, Yeah, it does a
little bit. But I just sat down with the book
and when and it was, you know, it was looking
at Clint's start work, and it was trying to do
clint start work justice. That's that's what stories we're all about.
I have great admiration for Clint as a as a person,
(33:33):
as an artist, and for me as a writer. It
was just making sure that those beautiful images were done
justice with some good storytelling, you know, and it's and.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
The whole book has been beautifully what I've seen of
it so far, it's been beautifully laid out with gorgeous
funds and it's just like, yes, an experience.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah. And I think that there are levels of the
Kickstarter where you have like cards like card Verse and
of some of the art correct and it's after that,
like in a big way, like I want a chewing
gum deck of these of these images because I said, Basil,
go go. But also and I don't, I don't know
(34:13):
if there's a frizettashness to some of it, you know,
I'm thinking of.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
I've been inspired by artists like for Zetta and so
many different artists. It's probably why I kind of enjoy
working on projects like the Stoke of Verse, because it
allows me to do something They're completely different. There's no
there's no general style throughout the book. It kind of
jumps around from sort of realistic digital art to to
(34:40):
kind of stylized art to very painted art. I suppose
the idea is that I suppose it's it's there's there's
something for everybody in there, you know. I always just
like books which you had different styles, you know, throughout
the throughout the whole book. We did the same with
the Stoker Verse role playing game. You know, it's got
(35:01):
some and they've got some kookie art, you know, you know,
so it's but the stories are fabulous. Chris's stories are
absolutely fabulous. How much you know detail and world building,
he he he sort of crams into each story is amazing.
I used to intellectualize.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
I used to sit there, you know, I'll go on podcasts,
you know, because I've only been writing for four years,
to be to be completely honest to everybody, and I
used to sit you know, podcasts and try and intellectualize
the thing, and I'll be sitting on my decker be
all we will just listeners. Now I've got to the
stage of maturity and writing where I just want people
to read it and have a fucking good time reading
(35:39):
and just enjoyed the damn thing. And it's you know,
there's really nothing pretentious about about my work. What you
see to what you get. I hope people enjoy it.
I can't. I've tried at times, you know, there are
times within the Stoker Verse that I was trying to
write not like Bram Stubber, but trying to do like
the squeaky gothic horror. I can't really do speaky Gothic horror.
(36:01):
What I do is more of the cloud Barker ish.
I've collaborated with Clive Barker recently and what he said
to me was my work was like where he was
twenty thirty years ago. And he was like, for for
fuck's sake, don't lose that. That the real graphic body
horror stuff that.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
The years ago was Books of Blood and that was
a good place to be.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
So yeah, and that was that was a bit of
an inspiration for me too. I mean, you know, it's
interested in my background. It's always said in Ireland the
idiot son goes off the trend to be a priest.
But that was my background.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I went.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
I studied theology when I was very young, like when
I was seventeen eighteen, and I was I was always
fascinated by mythology. I was fascinating by how the story,
the moral storytelling, you know, regardless of what mythology you
believe in, you know, moral storytelling basically helped the human
race evolve and hand down various you know, whatever laws
(37:00):
to rebelieve and I was always fascinated by that, and
that was something that you know Stuber was as well.
Bram Stucker was absolutely completely obsessed with theology. It's what
the elements freemasonry, and Freemasonry is probably one of the
oldest forms of of, you know, a cult society. There's
a lot of things in there, and there's stuff in
(37:21):
there is Masonic. There's stuff that I've put in there
from my own knowledge of Freemasonry, and I'm not giving
away any secrets or anything like that. So there's an
eight brawler Freemason's listening to this, and don't be worrying
about that. But there are things that are very legitimately
in there that are Masonic, that would that would resonate
with the occult experiences that Bram Stubber would have had.
(37:42):
You know, I'm I always fascinated with Alister Crowley. I
don't think he was a good man at all, don't
get me wrong, but that's what makes him fascinating because
he was unapologetically he was. He was an unapologetic bastard.
He did his own thing, and you know, everybody likes
every likes a bastard like that, and he had a
true and some amount of knowledge and understanding of aspects
of the occult. And you know, I think he influenced
(38:07):
Bram Stoker a lot with with Dracula and with their
of the White Worm, those two in particular. I think
he influenced the Stoker but there's no real evidence for that,
I mean, with no avidence.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
But it's your place to You're the you're the writer,
so you have every right in the world to say
I think there's a connection here, and I'm going to
work on it all right. I'm glad we talked about
all the different stories that go into it, because because
I want to leave people with that that this you
should definitely check out the Kickstarter paid So if they're
(38:43):
searching on Kickstarter, they're looking for shadows of the Stoker Verse.
The book is going to come out from Scratch Comics
in October. However, if you're an early bird a Kickstarter backer,
you can get it in August. But but it's it's
very exciting to find that we're actually you're we're finally
going to be seeing it. And there's some wonderful examples
(39:05):
and different levels of support on Kickstarter. So that's that's
very very cool. I have been talking with Chris McCauley
and Clint Langley. Chris McCauley the writer and Clint Langley,
the artist of this book of stories that are accompanied
accompanied by these amazing full page pieces of art. It
is gorgeous and slick and I'm very excited to see it.
(39:29):
Thank you guys for spending time talking about your work,
and I hope you have a fantastic release. Just just
reach out at any any time and and we can
geek out even more about about Dracula.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Pleasure.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Thanks thanks for having us by
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