Panel: "Worlds Beneath Our Feet: Fantasy Without Elves" for Readers and Writers

Join our panel on writing, reading, and getting out there with Urban Fantasy, or what we call "Fantasy Without Elves." In honor of the release of TUNNELS OF BUDA (https://amzn.to/4mNSWFs) by Don Sawyer. Panelists:
Tricia Copeland -Critically acclaimed and Award-Winning author, Tricia Copeland has been acknowledged as an Award Winners in two separate book categories for the prestigious 2024 Global Book Awards– acclaimed novel, To Be A Fae Queen which is the first book in her Realm Chronicles series was the recipient of the Gold Award in the Teen and Young Adult Action/Adventure category. In addition, Tricia also received the Silver Award in the Teen and Young Adult Science Fiction and Fantasy Category for her stand-alone novel, Azreya, Aztec Priestess. Mark Morton - Noted Canadian non-fiction author and long-time CBC columnist Mark Morton has a debut as a novelist with The Headmasters, from Shadowpaw Press; he has DEEP experience in nonfiction as well, Cupboard Love: A Dictionary of Culinary Curiosities (was nominated for a Julia Child Award Don Sawyer He has authored over 12 books in several genres, including two Canadian bestsellers, his new book is THE TUNNELS OF BUDA which launches TODAY Mickey Mikkelson is the founder of Creative Edge Publicity. Since founding Creative Edge, Mickey has signed some of the top talents in the literary industry, including multiple award-winning authors, New York Times and USA Today bestselling authors, and successful indie authors.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
And welcome to our discussion of fantasy without elves or
urban fantasy. My name is Jason Henderson. I'm one of
two publishers at castle Bridge Media, myself and my partner
Intra Yo, who's the creator of our whole look and
feel and all of our covers and much of our editing.

(00:29):
We have been running castle Bridge Media, which is an
indie publisher in Colorado, for several years, and we're getting
together today because we're launching a new book from one
of our panelists, The Tunnels of Buddha by Don Sawyer,
which is the second book in a series that he's
called Soul Catcher. But rather than just talk about one book,

(00:53):
I really always get a lot out of hearing from
different authors talking about topics. So we have the panel
to we're talking about urban fantasy, what it is, what
it takes, and what goes into publishing. So let me
talk a little bit about our panelists today. So with us,
we start with Tricia Copeland. Hello, Tricia. Tricia has been

(01:17):
acknowledged as an award winner in two separate book categories
for the twenty twenty four Global Book Awards, and I
think the book that you were talking about today well,
there's two.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
There's two kind of.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Simultaneously, to be a Fay queen and osraa Aztec priestess.
Tell us a little bit, if I haven't actually taken
away everything that you would have said, tell us a
little bit about yourself, Tricia, Right, So.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
I write young adult fantasy as well as new adult
closed door romance. But we're talking about fantasy today. So
I'm wearing that hat and my fairy not elf. Sure
don't know if you can see it. My name might
be covering it. But my Realm Chronicle series is about
a young queen Fairy who is crowned queen at age seventeen,

(02:01):
so has a lot to prove.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Wonderful, Thank you so much. Also with us is Mark Morton,
noted Canadian nonfiction author longtime CBC columnist. Hanny has a
debut novel with The Headmasters from Shadow Pop Press. But
as we mentioned, deep deep nonfiction experience, including one nominated

(02:25):
for the Julia Child Award, which is covered love. Welcome, Mark,
what do you want to tell us about yourself?

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Yeah, thank you, thank you. Well, I'm really really really
happy to be here. Yeah, I feel it's sort of
weird for me because you know the book that just
came out. It actually I just got it from the
publisher today in the mail. Is a book, the first
book that I wrote thirty years ago, but it's been republished.
This is the third edition and it's nonfiction and it's

(02:52):
sort of very analytic. It's about the origins of food words,
the origins and histories of food words, etymologies in other words.
And yet I still have in my head the young
adult dystopian novel that I published last year, so it's
sort of they're both rattling around in competition in my head.
So maybe maybe i'll talk about them in relation to

(03:13):
each other once we get going.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
I think it's a great idea.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
And likewise, Tricia, I want to talk about the demands
of genre in switching genres and what the heck is
new adult because I love it, but I think it's
fun to hear that discussion of nascent genres. And I
mean it's not so Nason's been at ten years, but still,
you know, I love those changes.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
We also have Don Sawyer.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
So, Don, as we mentioned, your new book, The Tunnels
of Buddha, launches today. But you've written twelve books in
a bunch of different genres, two Canadian bestsellers. Tell us
a little bit about yourself and coming into this world
of fantasy.

Speaker 5 (03:55):
Yeah, thanks very much.

Speaker 6 (03:56):
I just want to say too that castle Bridge has
been great to work with and the book. The two
books that are out, the first one was called The
Burning Gym and then this one, The Tunnels of Buddha,
was originally written as one enormous single novel, and as
you can imagine any any publisher with any sense, so
we're not going to touch that a ten foot full.

(04:18):
So I ended up breaking up into two books, and unfortunately,
Chasing an Inchurl saw the potential there, and so we've
had a really great relationship over the last year, almost
almost to the day we had the book launch for
The Burning Gym.

Speaker 5 (04:33):
But as far as me, well.

Speaker 6 (04:35):
I mean, I've been around a while, so that that
kind of gives me a bit, you know, some time
to draw on. And I consider myself out to be
an educator who writes and so rather than a writer
who who you know, who is primarily an author. And
it's a good thing too, because I certainly would have
starved to death on whatever it made for my writing.

(04:55):
But I've had a wonderful career really varied career that
I you know, worked in West Africa in creating development
programs for grassroots community workers. I've worked in Jamaica. I've
worked in Aboriginal communities in Canada, and so all of
that sort of diversity literally and figuratively sort of filters

(05:18):
into my books. And so my books go all the
way from chapter books for you know, grade four and
five kids up through nonfiction for adults, in this particular case,
chronicling our first experiences teaching in a rural Newfoundland outport
way back in the seventies. And that book was called

(05:40):
Tomorrow is School and I'm Sick to the heart thinking
about It, which was left in a note that one
of the kids used to come up to our house
because they were bored anything else to do, and we
actually had a dartboard and Jan used to cook brownies
big round. So anyway, as he was leaving that night,
he wrote, tomorrow is school and I'm sick to the

(06:00):
heart thinking about it. And that just really stuck with me.

Speaker 5 (06:02):
So it isn't that great. I mean, you couldn't. You can't, so.

Speaker 6 (06:07):
Anyway, so yeah, that's that's me. I worked at the
college level. I operated a teacher training program for First
Nations adults as Simon Fraser. At the end of my career,
I was working for Okanagan University College. As I said,
uh right, at the end working in West Africa. We
had something called the West Africa Rural Development Center, which

(06:29):
was based in the Gambia, but I was also working
in Ghana. So it's been it's been a really fun run.
And and now that I'm retired, it gives me more
time to focus on the writing, which may or may
not be a good thing. It's just a trend of
working on the third book and it's driving me nuts.
But anyway, we'll let that one go for now.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
We'll get into process. Actually, because I didn't ask all
of you.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
About about your process of writing, because I find it
endlessly fascinating. Mickey, I'm so glad that you're here on
this page. You're the founder of Creative Edged Publicity. You've
worked with multiple award winning authors in New York Times
and USA Today best selling authors, and you deal in

(07:14):
the in the everyday foot of the pavement world of publicity,
and so you know a lot about the industry and
publishing and what it takes. And I think it's really useful,
and we're going to talk, especially in the process piece,
just about what authors can expect, because I'm hoping that
somebody listening to this in the audio podcast version that

(07:35):
will do or the video YouTube version, that they'll be
thinking about just what it is today in twenty twenty
five to publicize a book, because I know it's changed
since I to give the background on me, I started
as a novelist and published my first book. I was
writing incredible help novels like back in the early nineties,
and fantasy and stuff like fantasy with elves. And it's

(08:01):
a different yeah, big, the true fantasy. It's a different
world today than it was when I started. Back then,
if you were submitting a book, you literally sent a
ream of paper in an envelope to some publisher in
New York, and you waited to hear back three or
four months later, Whereas now you send them an email
and wait to hear three or four months later if
you're lucky. But at least at least you're not spending

(08:26):
so much so much cash on just postage. All right,
So the first thing I wanted to talk about, you've
all got fantasies that don't completely fit into And you
can say, Jason, I think your premise is flawed. I
think the fantasy when people hear about it, you're at
a party, you're at a barbecue, and you say, oh,

(08:48):
I write fantasies, and some of the pictures Tolkien, if
they picture the picture elves and wizards and what have you,
and I and some of those elements probably survive into
all the other fantasies and in fantasy, but some don't.
And you say, oh, I write urban fantasy, and they
might think if they're of a certain age, oh like
shadow Run, you know, cyberpunk and stuff like that, cyberpunk
with magic. But any of you can jump in as

(09:10):
you want. But if you get too rowdy, I'll call
on you one at a time. But how do you
explain this genre to people? And I guess the next
piece of it? And then how do you make them
interested in it? But hopefully your explanation is interesting so
they go, oh, okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
I'll look for that. But how do you explain this
genre to people?

Speaker 1 (09:28):
And anyway, what don't you done?

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Go ahead?

Speaker 6 (09:33):
I mean, I think it's ironically a very old genre
and a very new I mean you look at nineteen
eighty four and or even Gulliver's travels. I mean, those
were there were allegories, they had an element of reality
to them.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
You know when you come to that, I mean basically,
let's go all the way back.

Speaker 6 (09:53):
Well, I mean we can go back rather than that
in the Greek myths. In fact, in this current book
that tells a Buddha actually had the audacity to draw
a bit on the persephone myth. So I mean, you know,
we can we can see that these elements are as
old as the hills, as they say. But I think
that recently it's become a more kind of formalized and

(10:14):
recognized genre as such, and I think maybe it's a
reflection on our preoccupation with our current situation. I mean,
to me, the idea of urban fantasy is the juxtaposition
of the magical and the literal.

Speaker 5 (10:31):
And the immediate.

Speaker 6 (10:33):
And that's what I think makes it so fascinating. I mean,
it literally literally worlds underneath our feet. And one of
my very favorite examples, of course, is the In the
Night Circus, which is just this magnificent book that that
takes us in.

Speaker 5 (10:51):
You know, sets up camp one.

Speaker 6 (10:53):
Night and everybody goes in the next morning, it disappears,
and there's and it's real. It has the sense of
reality but the sense of match at the same time.

Speaker 5 (11:01):
And I think that's the that's what you're trying to
embrace when you write this. Uh, And I found it.

Speaker 6 (11:06):
I found it really exciting, you know, and even research
like I'm using a lot of magic. But sheees, we
can't understand what's going on right now. I have no
idea about the you know, magnetic impulses that are coming
through this and there being transmitted instantaneously. I mean, that's
pretty magical in itself. So so I think that we're

(11:28):
all sort of faced with that magic that we don't understand.

Speaker 5 (11:31):
And so there's there's that that immediacy.

Speaker 6 (11:36):
Yeah, we're living in a magical world and let's let's
just let's just take the wraps off and really look
at it. And I guess that's to me, it's a it's,
as I say, also an opportunity to write allegorically because
it's not it's not out of you know, it's it's
not on some far off planet, although Ursula le Gwen

(11:57):
can do that and make wonderful commentaries on Earth. But
that's another story she's talk about. She didn't write science fiction.
She wrote social science fiction. That's really interesting. I think
I could certainly relate to that, you know, but anything,
I think that idea of worlds underneath our feet and
some of the the the I must say, some of

(12:18):
the urban fiction I'm not that crazy about just takes
sort of dragons and dungeons and swords and superimposes them
over Chicago.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Right.

Speaker 5 (12:26):
But but there's but there's there's nothing.

Speaker 6 (12:28):
About the interaction that that I think, really to me anyway,
says oh wow, you know, it's not like these sort
of awkward dragons that walk, you know, walk you know,
into Grant Park. I mean, no, you know, this is
this is like serious interaction between the real and the magical,
right right right right in our faces. And like, you know,

(12:49):
when I was doing research on for the first book,
but both of them in that matter, and I started
looking into the the subway system in New York. I mean,
I want to get the reality here. I'm going to
try to know there is a reality there. And much
to my amazement, I found out that there really was
an abandoned subway system. It was abandoned in about eighteen
eighty and so when I created this, this this this

(13:11):
kind of utopian community underneath the subway system, there it was,
you know, just waiting for me. So it's just it's fun.
It's exciting. Like all of the stuff I do in terms,
although I don't understand it, but wave technology and all
this sort of thing, it is magic. I mean, this
is the kind of thing that Tesla was working with,
you know, you know, back in the mid eighteen hundreds,

(13:32):
and so you know it.

Speaker 5 (13:35):
There's it's it's there's there's it's a magic.

Speaker 6 (13:38):
There's magic out there, and it's oftentimes not as far
away as we think it is.

Speaker 2 (13:42):
That's wonderful. And by the way, the.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Hidden subway tunnel that that's actually one of my favorite
elements to your series is how they're how they're occupying
some of these old, these old constructs.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Going in alphabetical order, Trish some if somebody says to you,
what the heck is that? I mean, how do you
how do you grapple with this question of what the
genre is?

Speaker 7 (14:05):
I think the.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
Main two elements for me would be that it's urban,
so it'd sits in a city setting, you know, a
population area.

Speaker 7 (14:14):
And probably.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
I mean, this is probably not a hard and fast rule,
but contemporary, like it's in our present time most likely.
And like John said, there are a lot of urban
and I might even call those urban fantasies that he
said he didn't like, the quintessential urban fantasies of just
you know, yeah, dragons and monsters are just.

Speaker 7 (14:36):
In New York City, and a lot of.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Them have elements of people hunting them and them being
the bad guys and us trying to conquer whatever they're doing. Right,
So that's that's a lot of what's in urban fantasy.
But for me, when I think about it, it's the
main two elements is that the urban and the contemporary.
And I guess there could be historical urban fantasy. I
mean a lot of the vampire fans are set in

(15:00):
you know, London and the eighteen hundreds or nineteen hundred, right,
so yeah, and then well would steampunk fantasy be or
you know, if it's said in an urban setting that
but I think you know, now we're talking about urban
and contemporary.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
So it could very well be that this is just
a thing to be able to know where to put
the book on a shelf that you're writing a book,
and then you go, well, what is this like, like,
what is it that I, you know, Highlander? Like, I
don't know if embarrassed embarrassed to say or not. I
wrote the first Highlander novel back in a billion years ago,

(15:39):
and that's urban fantasy if anybody if anything, because it's
a bunch of immortal people who fight with swords in
Central Park. I mean, it's it's there is, there's you know,
there's there's nothing else that I could call it. I
don't think we thought to call it that back in
the nineties, but it's But yeah, Mark, did you have.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Anything that you'd want to add to this question? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (16:00):
And yeah. Again, as I was saying, I sort of
have a double approach to this, or double perspective. But
I think what unites them both is that, whether I've
been writing in nonfiction or fiction, my books have tended
to kind of straddle a gap. And that can be
a positive because it might be something that nobody else

(16:21):
has written about yet, and it might be kind of quirky.
But on the other hand, it can also make it
hard for booksellers or promoters to figure out how to
market it. So I'll give you an example from both
my nonfiction and fiction. So with my book Covered Love,
the one that was just the third edition just came out.

(16:42):
When it was nominated for a Julia Child Award, it
was actually in the technical reference category, which it isn't
really not at all, And at the same time it
was also nominated for a Humor award in Canada, there's
a famous long dead humorous named Stephen Leacock, and so
it was nominated for a humor award, and yet it

(17:05):
was also a technical reference book apparently, so, as I say,
sometimes that made it difficult, but I think for the
most part it came across as quirky enough that certainly
media back then and again this is thirty years ago
when it came up, were very very interested in it.
Seemed like it was pretty easy to get newspaper and
radio promotion of it. Now with my novel The Headmasters,

(17:30):
my young adult novel, it's a dystopian and even that
is kind of strange or interesting, I think, because it
seems to me that most people think of dystopian as
a kind of subcategory of science fiction. But I think
that most dystopian things I've read do not have any
science in them. You know, they are worlds where technology

(17:51):
has has gone away, so maybe it's maybe it's just
more a sub genre of speculative fiction. But the way
that I think my novel The Headmasters kind of straddles
the gaps is it takes the conventions of the usual
dystopian kind of novel, but then I play with the
form quite a bit like it's in literary creative ways,

(18:15):
different voices, different perspectives, different fonts and things like that.
And so that I think risks alienating some publishers or
readers or that kind of book you know, where you're
where it's both commercial and literary at the same time.
That could be hard to market. But I'm very glad

(18:37):
that I landed with Shadow Pop Press because I think
they could see what I was trying to do with
the book. Yeah, So that's what I have to say,
straddling the gaps.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Here's something I'm curious about. So I have two questions
come to mind.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
But the first one is we used to say that
all of your systems in a science fiction or a
fantasy book needs to have rivets. In other words, in
other words, you must all of your magic needs to
make sense, it needs to have it needs to have rules.
The rules need to be communicated to the author. But
actually I believe in rules, but I'm also allergic to them,

(19:12):
like like sometimes I think you break them. Do you
guys think about that stuff when you're writing your books, Like, like,
you know, I've established that the magic in this world
works such a way, and so I need to make
sure that there's a character in here who explains it,
and I need need to make sure not to break it.
Whereas I remember the guy that Bill Morier interviewed anyway,

(19:37):
there was the phrase concretizing the myth. The more you
explain something, the more you take the magic out of it.
You know, once you you know, it's good to say
Superman is strong because of the yellow sun, but it
starts to lose its magic when you start to explain
how a yellow sun might actually affect the DNA of
an alien It suddenly you're.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Off in something.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
It's not as interesting, so do you And having said that,
actually you can make it interesting. But do you think
about this stuff like making sure that your magic has rivets?

Speaker 4 (20:05):
Well, I think if I can jump in, I think
with regard to speculative science fiction, dystopian urban fantasy, What
matters with the story is that it has internal coherence,
and if it violates that, then readers will feel that.
So I'm thinking today I was talking with a friend

(20:26):
about you know, the French playwright Moliere from the seventeenth century,
and I don't like his plays because the first ninety
percent is really interesting and then consistently what he does
is he literally has a dace ex machina come down
and solve everything. It's like, well, where did that come from?
It just it feels like you're breaking the rules or

(20:46):
the walls in some way. So yeah, I think that
it's going to have internal coherence, and that can be
a range of things. So like on the one hand,
like I think like hard science fiction such as The Martian,
I think, you know where everything is blamed, you know,
it could actually be like that. And on the other end,
I would say the science kind of science fiction that
tends more towards like the mythic. So again, there's still

(21:10):
an internal coherence, but it's not explained how this person Superman, Zeus, Batman, Frankenstein,
you know, how they get their powers or unique abilities.
It's just a given a Donny.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Well, actually, Stephen King to your point. In his onwriting
talks about the real question. No, it wasn't on writing,
it was misery. He talks about writing a romance novel,
and he says, if you're going to do a twist,
the twist has to work. Doesn't have to necessarily actually
work in real life, but it has to at least
work enough that the reader goes, ah, how satisfying. That's
you know, yeah, Donatricia, did.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
You want to want to?

Speaker 5 (21:45):
Well?

Speaker 6 (21:46):
I mean, and as you know, much of mine, both
of my books revolve around gems that actually have captured
a portion of their owner's souls and absoluted. And you know,
one can argue that they feasibility of that in scientific terms,
but I was I wasn't. I wasn't trying to hold
myself to that rule consciously, but I certainly was very

(22:09):
much aware that any anything I was I was talking about,
I wanted it to be within the realm, some sort
of reasonable realm of believability. So when when Barbera goes
to to find this chain that's unbreakable and sus Harlowe
starts talking about these heavy metals, I mean, I actually
did some research, and these amazing metals are out there.

(22:29):
The many are almost conceptual, but in this case, this,
you know, because of her remarkable capacity, she's able to
take these these sort of almost you know, imaginary metals
and craft them into this amazing chain which is unbreakable.
So so you know, I enjoyed doing that, saying yeah,
let let's say we're gonna do this, but we're going

(22:52):
to do it within some sort of vague realm of possibility.
So people reading and say, wow, you know, look at that.
And the same thing with the transmission we find out
the transmission from the the mesters central stone to the
to the gym to the gym owner's stone. Again, I
was fascinated by the whole wave concept, the transmission of waves, frequencies.

(23:17):
This isn't insane. And so I mean, what I found,
much to my isment that this transmission of ideas, suggestions
from half a world away was it nearly as as
abstract and unbelievable as I thought it was. So you know,
I was able to build on that, and I think

(23:37):
it keep it not I mean, not in the immediate
realm of possibility, but certainly in the you know, I mean,
let's face it, fantasy and fantastic come from the same root.
So I mean, at least it's fantastic. It's fantasy, but
it's still kind of within the realm of the well.
That's kind of the ideas in urban fantasy, within the
realm of the known universe.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
That's wonderful, Tricia, did you have anything you want to tell? Yes?

Speaker 3 (24:00):
So I agree with Mark. It definitely has to be
internally coherent, so you have to.

Speaker 7 (24:05):
Follow your own rules. I don't really think. And what
was coming up.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
For me was this show versus tell, Like, I don't
think that readers necessarily like want a huge dump at
the beginning of a through Z.

Speaker 7 (24:18):
These are all the rules of the world and the magic.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
You can be stronger than that. I actually think that
actually do not want to, right my.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
All my books are written in first person, so I
really like the reader to find out, as the main
character finds out what's going on, how the world has built,
how the magic works, and you know, I look back
at some of my earlier books and I'm like, oh,
I wish I've done that a little bit differently, because
I kind of did dump a little bit there. Yeah,

(24:47):
And some of that might just be reader preference too.
I mean every reader is going to experience something differently.
But you know, I have come up in my series.
I don't like write all five books in the beginning
and then make sure they all at each other. You know,
I have a huge document of what I've done, and
sometimes I'm like, oh, I want to break that rule?
Is there a way I can get around the rule

(25:08):
that I already wrote?

Speaker 7 (25:09):
And usually I can figure out somehow do I work
my way around.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
The rule so that the reader won't go, no, you
can't do that, so, you know, And so the other
thing that came up for me, we were talking about
urban fantasy, and Don's talking about you know, what's just
beyond the realm of comprehension or truth or you know
what's matten The term is magical realism. Probably for a
lot of people, urban fantasy could be much like that.

(25:34):
It's just, you know, just beyond the realm of what
we can touch or see or in a physical logical way.

Speaker 4 (25:43):
Right.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Well, and if you're actually absolutely right that this is
it's almost an it's an arbitrary distinction sometimes between magical
realism and urban fantasy. And but I believe that what
you just said, in fact is a really wonderful opportunity
when you you Tricia, You've set up your rules and
then you go, how do.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
I break it? And you come up with a cool
way to break it.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
The audience is delighted because you set up that there's
a hat and the hat has a bottom, and there's
no rabbit in it, and then you pull the rabbit
out of the hat, and they're excited forgetting momentarily that
you invented the hat. There is no hat, there is
no rabbit, but they believed it, and in their hearts
they're surprised. And I think that's I think that's great.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
So yeah, and I.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Really I'm going to take to the grave what Mark
said about the whole thing, about the coherence, and even
though the audience won't necessarily feel like articulating that, they
will feel it and and and they will.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
They will reward those who who who stick to it too.

Speaker 4 (26:47):
I'm just thinking. I'm thinking a bunch of things, But
what one is I think the most audiences are willing
also to stretch what they will accept. An example that
comes to mind is, remember years ago there was a
movie called Batman versus Superman or Superman versus Batman. You know,
they were enemies. Well, come on, like, realistically, he's Superman

(27:09):
versus Batman. Who's I mean, who's who's going to win?
Or another example is with Captain America. You know, he's
got this shield and for me, it weakened it when
they started to try to explain where this shield came
from and what it was made. I mean they literally
said that it's a metal called unobtainium.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
You know, that is funny, that's it, just yes.

Speaker 4 (27:34):
Yeah, yeah. And also Black Mirror, And I love the
series Black Mirror because it's it's like now, but maybe
five six eleven years in the future, and it really
kind of explores some of the some of the things
that are on the horizon for us, I think.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, oh oh absolutely, And and they shy away from
magic per se in Black Mirror, but but it is
it is deeply speculative, and some of the technology they're
using is so perfect that it's almost and really in
the end it doesn't matter because they're playing with moral themes.
So really you're into the story and you just go

(28:12):
all right, let us let us all agree that this
particular technology works, and now let's play with the moral
questions involved. And usually have a sucky ending, like like
you know, because it never works out except for except
for in one that I can think of. Uh Okay,
So I want to shift over if you don't mind,
and and you're welcome to to uh walk us through.

(28:35):
I want you to to keep talking about your own books,
but I'm really interested in your process, Like, so you
can talk about new stuff you're working on, it doesn't
matter whatever, whatever you like, although Mickey will probably prefer
that you make sure.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
And talk about the one that you're currently on top of.
But I want to.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Know about process, like, you know, do you find that
that you that you outline the heck out of stuff
or or do you just go by dead reckoning?

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Do you know?

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Lee Child, the writer of the Reacher novels, says that
he basically lays on a couch and thinks of sort
of the first few chapters of the book and starts
writing that and then just goes wherever he goes. I
don't know if I even believe that, but and Stephen
King also famously says he doesn't.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Plan his novels.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
I do actually believe that, but I think that in
his mind there's a muscle up here that knows when
he's turning into the third act in a in a
in a play sense, I know when he knows, he
knows when he's headed towards the ending.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
But talk about your process outlines.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Uh do you get up at work at five and
work on it at five in the morning, same time
every day?

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (29:40):
So, so give me the high level bullets of your process.
Don We'll start with with you. Uh, you got a
book to write, it's it's dude, whenever it's due. How
do you mechanically get about doing it?

Speaker 6 (29:56):
Yeah, I mean before before I get to the immediacy
of it. I mean, like I say, I've been I'm
well retired now and I've been writing. My first book
was published in nineteen seventy four or five, so I've
been at this for a long time. But I've always
been As I mentioned, fortunately else were employed, so grabbing

(30:16):
time to write was always a challenge for me. So
some of the books I was writing was literally one
of the adult novels I was writing after I put
my kids to bed and you read them at bedtime story,
drew them a lunch bag cartoon for the next day,
and then got up and you know, so at that point,
at nine thirty or ten, I managed to get in
two hours before I had to go to silo. Let

(30:37):
it get up the next morning at.

Speaker 5 (30:38):
Eat to go teach.

Speaker 6 (30:40):
And so that was, you know, that was challenging, and
so I learned to at that point, I learned to
use the time that I had wisely.

Speaker 5 (30:49):
I think.

Speaker 6 (30:51):
But as far as the specifics when I used to
go and talk about the old days, I mean, my
first book that I wrote tomorrow is school. I actually
wrote it out longhand I mean, those were the days
and I could actually go into a classroom and show
the transition from some scratched out outline, you know, to

(31:11):
a written first draft to a tight draft and so forth.
And I think in many ways I still utilize that.
I just thought, you know, this might be kind of fun.
I mean, as I say, I'm trying to work on
the third book right now, and this is kind of
what this background.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Oh, it won't light you. It won't light you because
you've got a backdrop.

Speaker 6 (31:27):
Okay, too bad, because you know you can see if
you can see these lines and sort of you know,
arrows and things jotted down here and there.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
And then the other thing I tend to do is
that I tend to write kind of sections like sketches.
I here's the sketch.

Speaker 6 (31:40):
You know, maybe tsy paragraphs that might or might not
fly itself into the book, but it kind of clarifies
my thinking.

Speaker 5 (31:47):
With both with the books, both of them.

Speaker 6 (31:51):
I actually, for some of the main characters, I sat
down and wrote character sketches for them. I wanted to
know who they were. I wanted to know their backgrounds.
I wanted to know their their valid use, their beliefs,
their frustrations, their aspirations, their conflicts. Not not so much
because it was going to be included word for word
uh in in the actual text, but because I wanted

(32:11):
them to be distinct characters, distinct voices, distinct personalities, and
and and and so when they encounter a situation or
a person, that personality, I knew who I knew who
that person was.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
I knew who you share was.

Speaker 5 (32:26):
I knew how he or.

Speaker 6 (32:27):
She would respond to that situation because I knew, you know,
how they how they thought, how they were. So that
was really helpful to me to be going into the
writing already having these characters in mind. I wasn't quite
sure what they were going to be doing, but but
as these things occurred, I was able, I think, to
make them respond in a consistent way and in a

(32:48):
believable way. And one of the things I've always prided
myself in is is having distinct voices and distinct characters.
I think some of the stuff you read, well you
say it, now, wait a minute, who said that?

Speaker 2 (32:57):
You know?

Speaker 6 (32:58):
The voice of seeing the situations is and it's like, yeah,
after one, it's gonna be one big you know.

Speaker 5 (33:03):
But so yeah, I mean, I definitely start.

Speaker 6 (33:07):
Off with some kind of a big outline, but I
can also sort of relate to that idea. At some point,
you just have to write, you know, like they you know,
we used to talk about the tyranny of the blank page.
Now it's the tyranny of the blank screen. But then
at some point you just have to say, oh my god,
all right, here we go, you know, And because you know,
I mean, as as a writer, particularly writing the kinds
of things that we're writing, this is a commitment of
time and energy, you know, always like oh geez, all right,

(33:30):
well let's let's get.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
On to the time.

Speaker 6 (33:31):
So but yeah, I, like I said, it's it's been
really fun for me on this one. You know, like
I said, I'm actually mixing in some interesting research I'm
doing on the Nazi occupation of Buda Peste during World
War Two, which is fascinating. And they and they were
one of the last they were hit ordered in not

(33:52):
to not to surrender, and everyone of the last outposts
of the Nazi uh and Buddha pest. The course itself
has been overrun. So doing that research on Buddapest to
be able to bring that that it's it's a it's
a character too, and to bring the sense of place
and and the sense of history to it. You know

(34:14):
that that that so I guess what I'm saying is
a lot.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Of what I do.

Speaker 6 (34:17):
Not a lot, but much of what I do is research.
And the other thing is, of course, you draw on
your own experience. I spent some time in Budapest and
stuck with me, and so when I'm writing about a
ruin bar in the hearts of in the heart of
a Budapest, I've been there, and so I'm able to,
i think, hopefully, really create a believable scene where the

(34:40):
mester operates in in Smithfield Market in in London. Is
that interesting place, It's it's the it's it's the meat
market of London, and so you know what inappropriate place
for this guy who may or may not be human, uh,
you know, to run this.

Speaker 5 (34:57):
Uh this squirrel's operation.

Speaker 6 (35:00):
So yeah, I mean, but the think those characters through,
to work them through and to.

Speaker 5 (35:06):
Be ready to have them in the back of your mind.

Speaker 6 (35:09):
And so when this occurs, you know how Barber's going
to react, You know what soul Dan's gonna say, how
he's gonna feel.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (35:15):
I do a lot of that, and I enjoy.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
It if one of you, one of you guys though
when it comes to actually the because it seems to
me you could do that for a year and not
get the books. And so so like when it comes time,
you're like, holy mackerel, I got three months to get
this book done. You know, Like, do you say I
I got I need to do. I need to do
a thousand words a week. I need to do two

(35:37):
thousand words a week. Do you even think that way?
Like to like or by the way I think that way,
like like that's that is how I work. I say
I need to get four thousand words done a week
or there's no way I can get this book done.
But are you guys, that kind.

Speaker 6 (35:50):
Of Christian is a genius at that she writes a
book a week, And I don't know, do I like
to hear about that show?

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Is that true? No?

Speaker 7 (36:01):
That is a gross overestimation. I have written a book
in a month, but not a week.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yeah, sorry, yeah, like don I don't do a ton
of outlining. I have like I know the beginning, I
know the end, I know some major plot points. I
know you know my characters, my antagonist. And if I
wrote an outline, like a detailed outline, I would not
even write the book because I would be so bored

(36:30):
with myself. I don't like want to know what I'm
gonna write, So I just I usually write like an
hour or two a day when I'm working on a novel,
and I set deadlines for myself and my editor, so
I know the deadline, I know how much I need
to do. But if I'm writing every day consistantly, it
just flows better.

Speaker 7 (36:46):
If I'm not writing and I'm.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Doing my day job, then in between those little breaks,
or if I go on a walk or I'm driving
my car, I'm constantly thinking, Okay, this is where my
characters are, where they going to go next? What is
their next you know, what is the ext challenge? What
is the antagonist going to do next? I'm constantly thinking
about the characters and what I just wrote, was that, right?
What it's true? Does it lead up to where I

(37:09):
want to go and what I'm going to write next?

Speaker 7 (37:12):
So my whole.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Brain is basically occupied by that book for months to
three to six months at a time.

Speaker 8 (37:19):
Yeah, right, And Jason, I'll just put ad in there.
That's not even including all the stuff that her publicist
is getting her as well. So that's on top of
all that, beyond everything else she's doing. She's also doing interviews,
she's writing guest posts, she's doing written interviews, like all
all these guys are like So that's part of this
as well. It's all work.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Well we should, Yeah, feel free to throw anything in
anybody as far as as far as process.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
But in fact, let's switch over to that. The reality.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Of being a writer today with a publisher. I've discovered
this on the writer side because I still write books,
and on the publisher side, is that the writer is
now responsible for so much of the publicity and the
marketing and the social networking and all this stuff. That's
when I started thirty years ago didn't exist, you know,

(38:13):
And there are pluses and minuses to that, because there's
also more opportunities to get your voice out there than
there used to be publicity wise. But Micky, why don't
you start us off talking a little bit about for
the listener.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
If you're a.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Novelist today, how much of that job involves all the
stuff you were just talking about. There's the writing of
the book, but there's all this other hat that you
have to wear.

Speaker 8 (38:34):
Well, there's two trains of thought of that. Thanks for
leveraging me in. There's two trains of thought around this
is that individuals who are indie published or self published,
the onus is on them to market those books. If
the books don't get marketed in any way, shape or form,
they're not going to sell. And so as a self
published author, it's ten times harder from that aspect. But
also authors who are published not just with small press,

(38:57):
with the big five as well. Oh yeah, you're a
mid lister within those outlets, or even sometimes a multiple
New York Times bestseller, they still don't get the attention
that they deserve from their publisher. From that aspect, timelines
you're looking three to six three to six months tops
marketability on a new release, that doesn't include the trade paperback,

(39:20):
that doesn't include the audio book, that doesn't include anything
beyond that, that doesn't include marketability of your backlist, and
even in the marketability from those publishers, it sometimes doesn't
even include mainstream magazine, newspaper radio interviews. It includes a
lot of social media blasts and tagging and getting trade

(39:41):
editorial reviews, but nothing else. And after the six month mark,
you're pretty much done. So if you haven't got someone
like myself, you're in charge of doing all of that,
whether you're published with a small press, a large press,
or on your own. These are the escapades, and these
are the roadblocks that authors faced and everybody faces it
because there's a million books being published and there's so

(40:03):
much competition with every within every genre, fantasy, horror, whatever, like,
there's so much competition overall. So am I popular?

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (40:12):
I'm popular? Do I have lots of interviews that want
to sign with me? Every week? I had one today,
And these are all the reasons behind that. That's my take.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Don Did you want to say one.

Speaker 6 (40:23):
Small correction, there's actually four million books published last year.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
I oh, my goodness.

Speaker 6 (40:30):
No, I mean it's just overwhelming, it really is. And
the other point you made, Jason, and I thought, you know,
if you said, well, thirty years ago when I started,
about fifty years ago when I started, and this stuff
literally wasn't there. I mean literally, we didn't have podcasts.
I mean, you know, you got your book reviewed and
the and the Globe and mail and if you went.
I had no idea, for example, that to be reviewed

(40:51):
in a library journal you had to pay to do that,
you know, to not the library job, but others. Yes, Okay,
I'm sorry, Okay, it's okay. I didn't mean it to
mean the library. I don't know urkose review. But you're right, Don,
And I mean sorty introduct. I just want to make
this point because it's on my mind. The industry is changing.
Like in the last two months. Here are two examples.

(41:12):
The Chicago Sun Times laid off twenty percent of their staff.
They canceled their culture articles editorial section completely, Stingray TV
in the city I live in, shut their doors last week.
The staff found out by a press release posted on
their website. They were not even told it was happening.
They were just told the next day, you don't have

(41:33):
a job. And these are all major traditional media places.
Sting Ray TV is an affiliate of CTV, so these
are all major editorial places. So what Don's referencing, I'll
get back to the second Don, so I cut you off.
But what I'm trying to say is what Don's referencing
with the global mail twenty years ago. That doesn't happen
now because there are major, major sites that are shutting

(41:53):
down and closing shots. So, yeah, it's scary in some way.

Speaker 4 (41:57):
Can I jump in here? And yeah, I certainly think
it has changed in the past twenty or thirty years.
I think too that again, you know, having published both
nonfiction and fiction books, my experience has been, and others
have told me this that it's and Mickey, you in particular,
can tell me if I'm correct or wrong about this,
But my experience has been that marketing nonfiction books has

(42:22):
been easier because you can say to somebody, this is
what the book is about. You know, you can say
that in sixty words. Trying to do that with a novel,
it's a little a little harder. So with my nonfiction books,
you know, we and it was with the first edition
was with a small publisher in Manitoba, but they were

(42:42):
able to get reviewed in the Atlantic and the Economist.
There was a front page story on the Toronto Star.
I mean, there have never been a book reviewed on
the front page at the Toronto Star. But because it
was this kooky nonfiction book, I think that's that's what happened.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
You know.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
I was gonna say something else, but I'm old, and.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
It's well, there's so much going on, right and by
the way, you're totally right, it is a little easier
to pitch a news person or a columnist or a
blogger a nonfiction thing because somehow it's just easier to
hang your hat on. Having said that, there's all of

(43:25):
this stuff that that you guys are still you're beholden
to do right, you know, with with with social media
and what have you, because if you have any chance
of people noticing and talking about something, I have noticed
by the way, that we sell more books if somebody
posts about it.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
On Instagram than anything else.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
You know, uh, you know, ads are good, but Instagram
posts for somebody or are better. And it is really
hard to get social media stuff.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Tricia, what is your experience of the publicity hat that
you have to wear.

Speaker 3 (43:56):
I do a lot of outreach, so I started, like you,
I started my podcast because of twenty twenty. My podcast
is Finding the Magic Book Podcast, and I just wanted
to connect with my fellow authors and readers because I
was missing all the conferences that I went to and
I thought, hey, I can interview my author friend, talk

(44:17):
to them, catch up with them.

Speaker 7 (44:18):
Plus, you know, have everybody learn about both of our books.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
So that's why I started my podcast. I really love
doing it. I really love.

Speaker 7 (44:26):
Talking to authors.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
But I probably do like five a week, so that's
like forty five minutes to an hour of my time
every week. And now I'm doing releasing two a week,
so I'm like book through August.

Speaker 7 (44:40):
It's it's really fun.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
But I have like all the way from you know,
I have a girl who's fourteen who's now published two
novels and I interview her. But I also have Penguin
Random House sending me emails for their A list authors
who want to be on my podcast.

Speaker 7 (44:56):
So I have everyone, which is interesting.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
In I'm port Tricia, thank you for this work. I
just want to say that's a wonderful I love that.
I love listening to podcasts about authors, and it is
it is a really great way of God. It sounds
so crass to say getting the word out, but but
getting yourself into the conversation, you know, And but it
does after a while become a job.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
It's part of your job. It's like, Okay, what are
we doing this week? What do I have to read tonight?

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Because I'm interviewing this guy tomorrow, you know, and and
it can that can can be really hard paston.

Speaker 6 (45:29):
I just wanted to kick in here for a minute.
I mean, yeah, I mean this is something I was
utterly unprepared for. I mean, like, you know, my my
publishing has been primarily in Canada, and you know, not
that much over the last few years. But the thing
that I found I've had yeah, two Canadian bestsellergents like
between you know, around twenty thousand copies, which is at
huge in an American market, but it's pretty good in

(45:50):
a Canadian No.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
It's really good. That's let me tell you. I would
be delighted that that is. That is really good.

Speaker 6 (45:55):
Yes, But anyway, but the thing about it is both
of those came out from small presses and in the
case of Where the Rivers Meet, which is a young
adult novel with an Aboriginal character as the lead. It
was published by a Maiti publishing house in Manitoba in Winnipeg,
and they had a built in clientele. It went into classrooms,

(46:20):
it went into primarily Aboriginal classrooms across the country. It
was really well received. And that's the other thing I
think finding the niche like the same thing with Tomorrow
at school. Much to my surprise, it was picked up
by teacher training programs across the country and they were
using it in universities and so there again there's another

(46:40):
two or three thousand a year.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
You know.

Speaker 6 (46:43):
It's like and so, you know, when you're trying to
kind of nibble around the edges, gee, maybe I can
sell ten with this podcast or it's you know, it's
particularly challenging. But I don't think that the size of
the publisher is the determining factor. I think, you know,
obviously they have more money oftentimes not always more resources

(47:05):
to put into it. But certainly I think it's the
you know, it's it's the connections that the publisher has.
It's the nature of the book that you've written. Who's
who's the appeal. A friend of mine's a poet, and
I'm talking about I have a hard living time. Tom
Waynman is mark Canada's best known poets, and he makes

(47:27):
something like fifty percent of his royalties from one poem
he wrote, I'm called that I miss anything that's been
anthologized all across North America. And that's one poem. And
yet he's written probably fourteen books. So you know, so again,
it's just it's a funny business. It's a funny.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
If you had written this is just to say, which
is like five lines long, you would be on talk
shows the rest of your life, isn't that world?

Speaker 4 (47:53):
Well?

Speaker 8 (47:53):
And to marks like the point that you, Jason, you
and Mark made around the media wanting nonfiction books rather
than the fiction aspect, specifically science fiction and fantasy, guys,
the reason that happens is usually, and I'm talking from
a self publishing standpoint, the self published nonfiction books are

(48:14):
usually self published by experts in those fields. Automatically, there's
legitimacy there. When you're looking at fiction based books ie fantasy, horror,
and science fiction, the amount of self published books in
that area quadruples, and the distance around that is only

(48:36):
about twenty to thirty percent, and of course I represent
some of them, many of them are on this stage
right now, will actually do a really good job of
making sure that the product is properly edited, having decent
book covers, and taking the brand seriously. The other seventy percent,
they're putting out a book a week expecting to just sell.
So how can it be deep quality? And when the

(48:56):
media sees that, how can the media see or thing
that it's quality, and how can they get through with reason?
That's the key reason that that happened.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
Honestly, Wow, that's really good.

Speaker 6 (49:09):
I mean, I'm all for democratic publishing and all that,
but let's face it, forty or fifty years ago, to
have a book accepted by a publisher, it was a
big deal. And I mean it's an eight keeper, that's true.
There was a certain there's a certain threshold of quality.
I mean well, I mean that could be argued and
has been, but you know, there was a certain expectation

(49:30):
of quality that's not there anymore. I mean two thirds
of the books published out of those four million, were
self published. My guess is it well over half of
those never had an editor look at it. So I
mean it's the whole like the whole publishing world. It's
just turned on its head just since I been't working
in it.

Speaker 8 (49:50):
Yeah, I mean the majority of the newspapers FAY will
not look at a self published bark unless those self
published authors are represented. And I want saying this to
build myself up. It's true, unless they'll self published authors,
how they publicist behind their works, because in their minds
then they say, if you have a publicist, then you're
obviously doing something right that that publicist wants to work
with your self published book.

Speaker 5 (50:09):
It's true.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
One thing that I think has been really really good
in terms of what's happened in publishing lately, and not
just publishing, podcasting, any any form of getting ideas and
information and conversation out, is that the there can be
very narrow audiences, and yet those narrow audiences can be

(50:33):
quite numerous. So I think, you know, if it weren't
for I don't know, this isn't quite true, but I'm
still going to use it as an example. Let's say
books about young people growing up queer or something like that,
that there is an audience there that I think if
it weren't for micro publishing and small publishers, it would

(50:57):
be very, very difficult to get those stories out there.
And I think it's really really great that stories belonging
to almost anyone, not just individuals, but people who belong
to a self identified community are able to connect with
one another.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Absolutely, right, absolutely, And it's also that self publishing enables that,
and also not to toot our horn, but but independent
publishing enables that. You know, I'm actively always looking for
books from LGBTQ and other marginalized communities, and I know
that sometimes it's feast or famine. Sometimes there's a lot
of those books getting bought by the major publishers. Sometimes

(51:36):
they take a turn away, Oh we're not selling so
many of those this year. You know, a smaller publisher
has less resources, but more ability to just say, well,
I want to because I like them. You know whatever, Yes, Tricia,
did you want to? I want to make sure that
I gave everybody opportunity to talk about the difficulties of this.
But if not, I want to get over to paying

(51:58):
attention to our time. Where you can be found and
what titles you want people to look for. So let's
start with Tricia, where can you found and what should
people look for?

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Right?

Speaker 3 (52:12):
So, my website is Triciacopeland dot com. My Realm Chronicle series.
The finale is coming out in July, so the finale
is to Be a Fae. But the first book in
this series is to Be a Fa Queen, so that's
the best one to start with. And if you go
to my website, you can get a free intro to
that series with tay Tany Rises when you sign up

(52:34):
for my newsletter.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Wonderful. Thank you, mister Morton. What about you?

Speaker 4 (52:38):
Well, I guess I would mention two places. One would
be my publisher's website. The publisher is shadow pop Press.
That's one one word, and shadow Pa is the name
of his cat or one of his cats, So shadow
Popress dot com. You can see a couple of my
books there that they have published, as well as a
host of a whole bunch of other authors. My own

(53:01):
personal website is Mark Morton dot CA A C A.
Because I'm in Canada. Not well, I'm still far still
in Canada, and who will see what happens the next.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Thank you, Thank you very much, Don. What about you?

Speaker 5 (53:16):
Yes, well, I just have a new book.

Speaker 6 (53:18):
Thank you very much for asking Jason and that.

Speaker 5 (53:23):
Well, now we're hoping.

Speaker 6 (53:24):
I mean, we're having the physical launch at a local
cafe on Sunday. Now, the books are in transit, and
as you know, the Canadian American borders have been somewhat
fraud lately, so it could be a really disappointing launch,
but I'm hoping for the best. But yeah, I mean,
I'm really really pleased to have the two books out now.

(53:46):
Kind of it completes that cycle and I'm delighted to
have to have those. I also, interestingly enough, am having
kind of the situation that Mark is talking about. A
young adult book I wrote called Running, which I'm quite
proud of, which uses a multi ethnic setting, has been

(54:06):
picked up by Temkan, my old publisher, and is being
released in a new edition, and that's going to be
coming out in the next month or two, and I'm
really excited about that. I still have about I don't
know ten or twelve titles in print. All of them
are available through my web page, which is Don Sawyer
dot Org, much like I copied Tricia. And then, of

(54:30):
course for the wonderful The Soul Catcher series, which is
published by a fabulous publishing house called Castle Bridge Media,
you can go to their website, and of course, as
somebody once said, or you can go to your favorite
online bookseller and sadly that's where fifty percent of books

(54:54):
are being bln these days.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
So I think, but still yes, yes, thank you very
very much. Uh and mister Michelson, you know, for those
who want to know more about about publicity.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
If if people are are, if that's where they are
in their publishing journey, where can they find you?

Speaker 8 (55:16):
Creative Edged Publicity is my website, it's my company name.
My website link is www dot kreave Edged dash Services.
You will see all my clients on the first page there.
All three of these guys are on that page. So
thank you all for this. Today was very gratifying for me.
I get to share some time with three of the
wonderful people I work with. So that's find me and

(55:38):
that's what I do.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
Thank you very much, and you can find us at
Castlebridge Media. I am honored to have gotten a chance
to spend time with you guys and listen to your
wisdom and your thoughts and and I want to do
everything I can to h to make the world more.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Accessible for your books.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
So thank you very much, and I will make sure
that this is up on YouTube and on the podcast,
and of course I'll make sure that all of you
guys know where to find it. I hope you have
a fantastic evening, and thank you for spending the evening
with me. Congratulations, Don, happy book birthday.

Speaker 5 (56:11):
Thanks very much.

Speaker 6 (56:12):
Before we're done, though, Jason, I just want to say
we were talking about how difficult it often is to
work with it, you know, like you absolutely true. You
send a manuscript often you hear maybe if you're lucky,
six months later this you have been the most responsive
publisher I have ever worked with. You know, if I
send you an email, I'll get a response back within
twenty four hours. That means a lot to writers, you know,

(56:34):
just to be able to process. And I really want
to thank you for that and for this too, by
the way, for hosting this, you know, really great conversation.
It'd be nice to have more of these.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
I thank you very much. I appreciate that we should
have more of these, and I thank you that that
means a lot to me. All Right, guys, have a
lovely evening for those of us in Colorado. The rain
is coming and it's going to be great. I'll talk
to you soon Bye everybody, everyone, b