August 23, 2024 • 54 mins
Change in Star Trek Shows
It is not a suprise that many shows in the Trek franchise evolve in style and tone from their very first episode. But what about during their entire span - which series changes the most during its run?
The trio discuss every show in the franchise from TOS to Lower Decks, determining which show changed the most over time. Is it TNG with its introduction of new uniforms and Rikers' beard? Is it DS9 with Worf and the Defiant? What about Enterprise with its pre- and post-Xindi War stories? How different are the three season of Picard? What about time jumping Discovery?
Join us as we discuss what changes and what stays the same in the Trek franchise.
It is not a suprise that many shows in the Trek franchise evolve in style and tone from their very first episode. But what about during their entire span - which series changes the most during its run?
The trio discuss every show in the franchise from TOS to Lower Decks, determining which show changed the most over time. Is it TNG with its introduction of new uniforms and Rikers' beard? Is it DS9 with Worf and the Defiant? What about Enterprise with its pre- and post-Xindi War stories? How different are the three season of Picard? What about time jumping Discovery?
Join us as we discuss what changes and what stays the same in the Trek franchise.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Nerd Party.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Darren Moser, I'm Philip Gilphus, I'm Daniel Prue, and.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
This is City Alpha three.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, and welcome to City Alpha three of Star Trek
podcast here on the Nerd Party. I'm Philip, joined by
Daniel and Darren, and we continue in an era of
no real news Star Trek. I mean, you know, prodidgu
Season two is on Netflix, so if it's new to you,
keep on watching. But as far as anything coming out
(00:46):
or anything that we know coming out in this calendar
year of twenty twenty four, I mean that's it, right, No,
nothing that we know of enjoy what you got, kids.
You got Star Trek at home, So daring any other
Star Trek you are enjoying in this time of arrest
(01:06):
in the franchise.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Maybe yeah, no, just we'll probably obviously working on finishing Prodigy.
And then yeah, I'm not sure. I've started to get
a little bit of a niche to to rewatch some
some classic Berman era Trek. I'm not sure what yet,
So thank you something.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Ge season one is pretty good. And then Daniel, what
about you you doing any Treking?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
No, I haven't for a bit, but I do yeah,
since we're gonna I know, we're gonna be talking about
Prodigy soon.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
I gotta get back on the wagon and catch the
rest of that season.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
No other than that, I have not not been doing
anything Star Truk related.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah I am. I'm not gonna look out and google
it right now. I am in the I. As I've
said before, I've been watching Doctor, the first Doctor, and
I'm on his second excuse me, third season, third season,
and I think I'm nearing the end. So as soon
as I finished that, I may. I don't know, I
have to figure out what to do because like it's
(02:06):
sort of like a Tas situation Darren where his fourth
series is like two stories and then he regenerates and
then it's the Second Doctor. So it's like, well, do
I just finish the First Doctor? But anyway, my then
I'm going to go do season two of TNG. So
I'm kind of breaking my.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Between the series, so don't get confused.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, But as I was sort of thinking about this
because I'm sort of like, you know, I'm you know,
instead of doing real work, I concentrate on this instead
of like, Okay, well I'm gonna watch what am I
going to watch, so I'm like, okay, TG season two
and then you know, as I'm about on social networking,
it was either on Twitter or Facebook. Some had referenced
season two TNG, which I thought about this before in
(02:52):
the past, and they're like, man, season two, like new Doctor,
new Tin, Fulward, new Guy. And it's like, I mean
a lot of new stuff happens in season two.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Point like it's hard to remember back then, but like
and now, in the context of what we all know,
we know that a lot of that was just kind
of a blip. But yeah, that's true. Like imagine watching
a new show nowadays and then so much changes in
the second season you'd be like, oh my gosh, Like
what is Corse in Yellow?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Jordi gets promoted sent to engineering. I mean, it's it's
a whole bunch of new stuff. So that got me
thinking about, you know, of course TNG itself, how much
a series changes, you know, and some do and some do,
So I thought that would be our topic today, talking
about each Star Trek series and how much change or
(03:41):
how much it changed or evolved or de evolved or
whatever verb you want to use that means change across
its span, whatever you want to call it so, and
you know, we can either come up with a score
or just say a lot, a little whatever that make
me be a PhD interest to variables.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
So it can it be like a Pulaski score on
a scale of one Pulaski to zero Pulaski's how many
how much it had to change data?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, so why not start at the beginning and we'll
kind of kind of we'll talk everything, but we'll kind
of start the discussion route in Robin style. I've thrown
this on you, but anyway, so I'll start with COOS,
which I would say it depends how you categorize CS
and how you want to think about it, which is
up to you. But this is this is my dilemma
(04:33):
because there's sort of TOOS as it aired, which I
know is all before our time, but at TOS as
it aired, which is like I think the second season
and third season we're kind of in order. But first
season was like they threw it all up in the
sky and picked it up and that's how they aired it.
Because like the second pilot where no man has gone
before is like the fourth episode, so like you're watching
(04:53):
it in something one episode, they all change uniforms, and
then who's this scary Mitchell guy? And then the next
episode they're back. But I'm going to take a holistic view,
which is my choice. You don't have to if you
take it from the cage and then to where no
man has gone before and then to regular maybe TOS
(05:13):
that you think of. I mean, it did it change
a lot, but it didn't change zero either, So I
don't know that. That's sort of how I'm looking at it,
you know, so far, so like you know a little
you know, or like a three, But I don't know,
so Daniel, what you're sort of thought about? How much
(05:33):
did TOS change over it's three years?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, I mean, you know someone like you know, we
know those fans that are super duper TOS people That
is not me so but some people will definitely probably
chime in and say that I'm wrong or maybe under reporting.
But in my brain it's sort of all the same,
Like you say, like in the very very early couple
of episodes, it's very like weird and fuzzy and things are,
(06:00):
rules are different and things are. But like after it
settles a couple of episodes in I feel like if
I didn't know the order of TOS or like or
at least some of it, Like if you threw a
season three episode in, I wouldn't be able to tell,
Like I wouldn't know. It's still kind of the same
to me. Like so to me, I don't think it
changed significantly. There's no I guess some checkof right he
(06:22):
comes to the season two he's a character that does change,
So there's at least a new character that sort of
denotes some sort of change. But other than that, like,
I can't think of any big major like you know,
people changes or anything like that. And unless I'm forgetting something,
there's nothing like major that happens that shakes things up
(06:43):
or there's no brand new sets or anything like that.
It's all sort of the same.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I don't think. I don't think it changes much, that's
for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yeah, rand yeomen Rand, I don't know exactly when, but
vaguely she disappears after season one, so but that would
be the other Darren, what about you for TOS changing, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Factor, I mean, I'm pretty sure again I TOS is
like my least knowledgeable series. But I don't think Kirk
gets like the green wrap around until later. That's so
that's a little bit of a uniform. But yeah, for
the most part, I mean all the shots of the
outside of the Enterprise are the same, like, none of
(07:23):
that changes. So yeah, it's maybe and like I agree
with you Daniel on like the set changes, but I
kind of feel like they might have gotten a little
bit bigger engineering or something like that I think progressed
throughout the season.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
They might.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I can't imagine they didn't add any sets over three years,
but they could have. Like it's it's really hard to say,
but yeah, it's it's so funny because I almost feel like, like,
obviously it's a product, it's time, and it's very episodic,
but I almost feel like it's strange watching Strange New
(08:07):
Worlds now, which is so much more connected like episode
to episode, and it's still episodic in a way, like
a next gen kind of way. But I kind of
feel like TOS would have benefited more from a through
put story or at least how strange the world does
(08:27):
it than it did Obviously, you know, that's like rewriting history,
but I think that would have been an interesting change.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
And it's hard to well, I mean, maybe it's not hard,
but it's semi hard to be objected about if you're
going to say you're watching tos in production order, air order,
if you pick whatever you want to do, but this
whole because we just think, oh, Kirk, Spock and McCoy,
but like that, like McCoy doesn't get I mean, DeForest
doesn't even get billing until the third season, like as
(08:58):
far as in the open because then like the credits
are William Shatt near letter Nimoy and that's it. And
then third season they had d so like that trio
dynamic you know, evolved obviously then just like we know
this is what it's going to be day one and
then yeah, I don't know, it's obviously it's very small.
I'm not going to say like they did some big
swing or something, but obviously they had to find what
(09:20):
kind of show they were. But yeah, it's not anything
huge as far as anything else. No, yeah, okay, and.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Even like I mean I know that there was famously
some but but like the production was this was largely
the same or like Gene ran the whole thing, the
whole for all three years and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Like I think that sort of stuff too, even because
it just feels the same.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
It's just sort of like and it's only three seasons too,
so it's like they didn't even have that much time
to change really, so it's like and obviously by the
third season they were sort of on the ropes.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Although if you think about a number of episodes, like
that's like six seasons of changing worlds, Like there's over
twenty episodes per season.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Seventy three episodes, seventy eight and the seventy something sticks
in my head for yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
But yeah, well one season of TS had at least
twice the number of episodes as like a modern Trek
would have. Come on, why don't you knows?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
All right, well, Daniel, do you want to kind of
just frame TNG force and.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Then we'll yeah, sure, I mean it's a little show
that most most people probably don't now, of course, I
mean there's definitely we probably know the best, but it
has some story history. Of course, we've watched all of them,
you know, the Bridge one, what was it called, what's
it called? The Chaos on the Bridge? Kasos on the Bridge?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
The way another spoiler, But like I was watching Prodigy
and the word wakado does get us? I wonder they
got to be making that reference.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So yeah, I mean TG, obviously you know premiere in
nineteen eighty seven and the first two seasons are famously
very different than the from three on, So I definitely
think this will be in the run running for like
at least most changes that we noticed or that because
we we all lived through at the time too as well,
and of course it had the full seven year span,
(11:26):
so lots of changes. Although and we can get into it,
I would argue season three to seven pretty uniform. They're pretty,
They're pretty Uh, it was a pretty found their groove,
they like, they settle it, they settle into it.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
And you know, they went with it. So so TG,
what do you think?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Darren? Well, I'm first going to answer Phillip's question because
I found a thank you Wikipedia for a nice list
of every series and how many episodes they had. So yeah,
original series had seventy nine episodes, Enterprise had ninety eight,
so it had slightly more. But then we kind of
(12:04):
fall off a cliff and Discovery at sixty five and
Lower Decks and Prodigy are sitting at forty and Strange
Your World is only at twenty, So.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
How many did Strange you sor how many did Discovery have.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Discovery had sixty five, so less.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Than less than tos even though it was on air
three times as long, it felt like.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So well five seasons, so three to five seasons, but they.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Took breaks and stuff, so they were definitely.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, and the number of episodes, you know, for sure,
at the point Discovery the Discovery was twenty seventeen to
twenty twenty four, whereas the original series was sixty six
to sixty nine, so they did it much faster back then.
But yeah, but to your other question about changes with TNG, yeah,
(12:55):
it I mean what we already kind of said about
season two, like that's obviously the biggest of changes.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
But.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I would say it's almost in a DS nine way
because later seasons, like some of the things they try
to set up for DS nine, like the Marquis, you know,
that's kind of different, like setting up this kind of
new species very late in the series and explaining, you know,
(13:26):
fleshing out Cardassians more and makeye more Jorans introducing that species.
So I mean, it's not changing the format of the show,
but I would say things like that where they're trying
to prep for the next iteration is a bit of
a change.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, it's hard, I mean, because I feel like we're
always slightly tingy defensive as people are like, oh, it's
so episodic, it's all the same. Well no, no, it's
totally different. There's lots of character. You just got to
look at it. Here's a magnifying glass. But roughly, you know,
to be crude, you know, season one and two you
can put on the side, and then three and seven
(14:11):
that side. I think the card does change, not radically,
but he does change. And again that's a one to
two verse three seven. But I mean it's there, it's
not not there.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, and it's you'd I think we're trying to claim
differences besides actors becoming comfortable in their roles, because you're
always going to get that in that first season or
two of any show. In Star Trek, I.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Mean, you have a raker beard period versus the not.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I mean, that's an interesting line to cut on, but
you're right, well, you know, and.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
To be fair too, we're kind of lumping them together.
But season and one and season two are very different
from each other.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
So sure it was like there there was a lot
of changes going into season two, and then of course
even more changes going into season three.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
You know, obviously the writing.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
And the production itself, but there's just a lot. There's
just a lot that evolved and change. So it's it's
almost it's tough to sort of like you don't want
to lump them together, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
It's just because they're different from each other.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I'm going to have those I'm going to find, and
I don't think they exist. I want to find those
like TNG fans, kind of like Enterprise, which we'll get
too about. I feel like Enterprise fans, we're going to
have definite places where they fall in as far as seasons.
But I want like the TG diehards that are like
no collars as it was meant to be, you know,
TG purists they ruined it after season three, supposed to
(15:43):
be synth music and spandex uniforms.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
I don't know if they exist. I mean you could,
you could wear those uniforms for.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Sure, and then just have like a key tar with you.
So cool, all right, And then Darren, before I get
you to do DS nine briefly, I mean, well, you
take as long as you want, but I just figure
it would be brief, what would you say, how much
did TAS change in your opinion? I mean, actually, it'd
(16:16):
be interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
It's easier to take TAS and just lump it with
the original series because it's rightly so often called just
season four of the original series just happens to be animated.
So yeah, I mean, obviously the biggest change, if you
look at it in that light, is you know, more aliens,
(16:37):
you know, just the things that you can do with
an animation budget visually versus practicality. Yeah, you know that sideways, motion,
life belts, all that stuff. So there's quite a few
changes in those twenty two episodes, still more episodes than
Stranger Worlds at the time of this recording. Just putting
(16:57):
that out there, they're winning by two. I don't think
that's gonna last much longer.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Cool, all right, So you want to frame DS nine
forest Damn.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, it's I mean episodic television.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
We got some long form story. But again I say that,
yet it's not like modern long form story. It's not
like well, it's not like Battlestar Galactica, like the reboot,
which was much more like it. There are definitely shows
now that we all can think of them where you
(17:36):
wouldn't really pull out a single episode, or it's very rare,
like there's maybe one in a season where you'd be like, Okay,
that's that's kind of a standalone that I might rewatch
for fun, but otherwise you feel like, oh, I need
to watch the whole season.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
It's like you said, Philip, it's only ten episodes, so
it's very easy. But I think, yeah, DS nine is
in that sweet spot of you're you're still an episodic television,
but you're allowing your characters to develop and change. I mean,
(18:12):
my goodness, you know the difference between Clark in season
one versus season seven, you know the difference between Miles,
any of our main characters have grown. Adding Wharf, I
would have to say that's kind of a line in
the sand. If I had to pick it, it's the
pre Wharf days. And remind me, was it season four
(18:33):
discovered they discovered.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Warf It's the start of season four.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So three seasons and then season four onward. I think
that's a bit of a line. I mean, some would
say the Dominion War, but really we're building up to
that through the entire show. In a way. It's just
the climax of that arc. So I think the wharf,
the wharf, the wharf effect is is a you know,
(19:02):
and we're also getting I need they were myself when
we got The Defiant, because I think that was a
little in season three. Okay, so it's like a time release.
We we get a ship and then we get a
klingon to put on the ship, and then you know, like.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That's that's really a war to put the cling on
and then a war.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
To put the ship and the cling on in. I mean,
you know, they did what they were doing. But you know,
even though The Defiant is a line, I think Wharf
is a stronger difference between pre Wharf and postwarf.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
You mentioned how much characters grow, and I think Jake
actually grew two feet No, I mean we're talking over
seven years.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I mean he kept that bus seat print company in
in in massive profits for all those seven years.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, because I mean, well, and people can define change
however they want to. But like, I'm not even trying
to think character growth because that's quote unquote normal in
a show. It's more like a star play should be yeah,
should yeah, But like I to me as far as
the shows we have talked about in order so far,
I think this night has the most change, I mean as.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Far as uniforms.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, and it's I think, you know, and again we're
slightly joking but not really. I mean Cisco appearance like
beard not beard, hair not hair, Like that's sort of
the Riker's beard of it all because I mean, and
you can say it's them getting comfortable both behind the
scenes and in front of the in front of the camera.
But like it's a it's not a radically different show,
(20:40):
but it is a different show than Hey, we're just
on the station.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Still starting to kind of judge it differently than all
other Star Trek shows. You really, it's in its own category.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Like as Niners, which I'm I mean, you know, I
like the show, but I don't love the show. But
like Niners, I like, I wonder when when they're trying
to get people into it, do they say started a
season or do they like that's a really good question.
The first two seasons and then and then you know, I.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Feel like we did this, like did we do an
episode where we like had our introductions to each show,
like like a short list of where to start. I
feel like, I feel like in the three hundred ish episodes,
almost four hundred episodes that we got.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Never repeated a topic, don't I do think there.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Are It is pretty pretty people do generally would recommend
like season four as a starting point with Warrior and
stuff like that, just because yeah, like because the beginning
of the show is a bit slower, and you know
that build up is is it's tough when people are
used to like jumping into like say, modern television, like
(21:50):
you know, breaking band or something or something hit.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
It starts so much stronger, so much.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Faster, and it's like, you know, the time definitely takes
a while to get going for sure. So I could definitely,
I definitely I recognize why somebody would would sort of say, hey,
start here and then you can go back and like
watch the rest as filler. Like you can see it
like build later on. You know, the characters might be
characters and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Now and your complaints were calling the first season three
seasons filler. Send to Daniel at one up. Dan is
the number one, not the.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Word Well, and that's interesting just describe it that way,
because I could see some people saying, whether it's ten
ger or whatever, just oh skip that season to start here.
But I like how you said it, Daniel, of start
at four, watch the whole thing, then go back and
then you'll appreciate it, because, like I mean, and again,
not not my favorite series. But it's not like we're
(22:43):
saying I don't think any of us are saying that,
like the first two seasons are dead. I mean there's
stuff there obviously, you know the I can't think it's
like the famous ones like the Kardassian prisoner guy and
you know that's season one, I believe, and then like
the Circle Trilogy and did My Key and did all
that stuff to one through three, all that stuff. But yeah,
as far as the sort of the speed and the
focus and even the look and the yeah, I just
(23:07):
it sort of gels a little. It's a late bloomer, right,
I mean I think as DS nine.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Yeah, I think that's fair to say.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
It's not like, oh, it took us a season that
like it took and I don't even want to go
all behind the scenes. Just as a viewer, it took
a while to get to. As you look at season seven,
you're like, oh, well, it took probably season three four
to really get where they wanted to.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Get and again that I think that's also the big
difference in DS nine is I mean, think of coming
from TNG as a writer, like you're a writer or
you're developing this show and it's very Planet of the
Week and Adventure of the Week, and you know, it's
Star Trek. It's you go to a new place and
you tell a new story. And yeah, it took them
a while to kind of realize go to a new place, right, Well,
(23:50):
that's what I'm saying is that is they kind of
try that in the beginning where it's like, oh, the
people just come to them, and that kind of works
in season one. You know, I'm looking at you, Wattie
with your Ala Moraine. But I think where Diestein really
starts to thrive is when they realize, oh, it really
(24:12):
is a story about this corner of the galaxy, this
frontier town, and it's it's kind of separate there, I know,
but but really it's about that story in this corner,
because if you think about it, we don't really talk
(24:33):
about the rest of the federation, like, yeah, besides the
random trip to Rhizo or Earth, like we're not interacting
with other you know Trek aliens nearly as much like
obviously we see Romulans and we see Cardassians and Klingons,
like I understand that, but I'm saying the focus becomes
(24:54):
what is the story of this place. It's a you know,
it's a place story, and and once they really get
on that wagon train, then uh, then it really it
really takes off. So I'm oversimplifying obviously a little.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
But yeah, it's just the nature of Space nine where.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
You know, it was, like you mentioned earlier, Darren, it
was trying to sort of straddle the line. It was
trying to it finds a way to sort of be
both episodic and serialized, you know, and it was pushing
that serialization further than we had seen up to that
point really in Star Trek.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
So but it does it really well, almost too well.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Where it's like like we mentioned, like the first couple
of seasons, Yeah, it's a slow burn. It's it is
it's a lot of character, it's it's a lot of groundwork.
It's being very deliberately and clearly laid for what happens
later on in the series. So of course, if you're jumping,
if you're dropping somebody into the into Deep Space nine.
The back half of it is going to have more payoff.
(25:56):
It's going to be more immediately watchable and more you're
more reward you're gonna get up seeing it.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
But that I think is not by no means bad,
but it's just by the nature of it.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
The whole show is literally changing the entire time, Like
the show is always evolving and growing. I would argue
it's literally building up until the Dominion War, so lots
of changes, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
I think you really nailed it with the word payoff,
and I think that's that's probably why we love the
end of d S nine so much, Like we're like,
oh my gosh, the last ten episodes, oh, the last season,
like it all comes together. I mean, yeah, slight bits
a plot, but for the most part, like, yeah, it's
all payoff for years of story build up and fortunately
(26:43):
they landed it and we didn't have a Game of
Throne situation.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well depending on how you feel about Fisco, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
We didn't go crazy and kill everybody on the station,
you know. But well, and one other thing I will
say about d S nine is, I mean we joke
about like it being long form and not episodic.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yet I do remember an episode or.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Two where like the Founders like sabotaged and like blew
up a portion of the outer dotting docking ring, which
I think was fixed within like two episodes.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
There's uploading in space. He's a scrap the little welders,
you know.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
So I was like, you know, as much credit as
I give DS nine, I'm like, it still fell into
the everything's back to status quo by you know, the
end of an episode or two at most. But I'm like,
because how cool would that have been if for the
rest of the show, which I think at that point
would have been like a season and a half or something,
(27:46):
you know, at most, you have this huge chunk missing
of the station. I think that would have been you know,
update the the graphics. Like I understand the fin commitment
to that kind of a change, but I think that
would have been awesome.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
That I might come back later something on the ship changing.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Maybe we'll talk.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
About sure, well, any final nine thoughts.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, Daniel is already talking about Voyager now, so well.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Speaking of reset button, I don't kick off Voyder here. Look,
I well, I don't know I feel I can say this,
but maybe I'm wrong. I'm probably the person who loves
Voyager of the most here. But I mean I would argue,
as far as Voyager, what I for me, it's a
show that found itself immediately. To me, I mean, there
(28:34):
was no finding like this is it. We are this crew,
they are home, these are the characters, and we're going
to be doing this for the whole seven years. What's
the show about.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Well, let me show you Caretaker and that's pretty much
what it's going.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
To be about.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I mean, and you know again I'm not. I don't
and you can, but I'm not. Don't talk character development
because there is. I mean, I would argue there's a doctor.
I mean, for one thing, that's the biggest character development
you doesn't show up to like really like the fifth
episode or something, and even kess two, but anyway, I
won't go into it. But as far as like overall changes,
I mean, yes, seven, I mean, if Kessley seven arrives,
(29:14):
So if you wanted to divide Voyager that way, you could,
I suppose. I mean to me, there's not a ten
or tenor change. And as much as unless you just
want to say like, oh well, then they start to
focus more on Januay and seven and the doctrine becomes
that lower of a show, which that's an argument, but
as far as overall, to me, I don't think that
show changes. I mean, if we're looking at like now
(29:34):
DS nine and TG, I would rank Voyidger below them
as far as change factor. But what do you think.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I mean, they didn't even change the uniforms.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
They didn't, and they had.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
The perfect opportunity.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
The only so far to date, seven changed your uniform
more than anyone else other.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Than TOS I'm talking Live action, the only series to
date that it did not change its opening titles. TG
had two and changed its music. Would your same music,
same opening all of a sudden.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
It's a beautiful opening, perfection. Yeah, you don't have to
change it at all. Yeah, yeah, Philip will look at
this one way. I will certainly look at it the
exact opposite way, But I do. Yeah, I mean, to
be fair, it's a remarkable amount of consistency with Voyager.
Like you say, what you see in the beginning is
very very close to what you get throughout the whole show.
And like you said, I guess the one big divide
(30:28):
would be pre and post seven, and I guess that's
when when Voyager got a little sexier kind of I guess,
like that's what they were trying to do.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I read that TV guide. I know what I'm supposed
to feel like.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I can see like the executive meeting, like we want
to sex up Voyager and they're like, okay, Like and
then they do that, like no, the boy.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
They're like, what's the sexiest character? Well, the forg Like really, really,
that's the one you think of? Sick, Yeah, tubes everywhere?
Speaker 3 (31:01):
What all right?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Higher than you're five?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
The pastor's skin. No, they would like look like zombies, dude.
And then they show the mis sketches seven and nine.
They're like, oh, okay, I get what you're doing. I
get what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
You got your little anti border you were doing in
the corner there. Okay, you're weirdo, but I mean we
should do it.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
But yeah, we know.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I'm just picturing that meme where it's like they're in
the conference room and then the one person says something
at the end of the table and the next shot
is them like flying out the window, being you know, tossed.
It's like it's like, how do we how do we
make Voyage. You better. It's like, what about we bring
the Boorg And it's like, uh yeah, No, I think
you're totally right, Daniel. It's a very consistent show, and
obviously there's change and character growth and all of that. Like,
(31:51):
but the formula of a season seven episode of hey,
we came across this planet and we can help these people,
but we're going to be gone in a day, like
that's kind of there the entire run. Uh it. You know,
if it had really changed, it would have been again,
probably more like Battlestar Galactica, where you know, the you know,
(32:14):
Voyager is more of a flotilla of starships towards the end,
it's a community that are flying together off to different destinations.
Like you know, obviously per budget, that's a lot more
to accomplish, but you know, everything is you know, they're
they're the master of the reset button. I mean, they
(32:35):
even have an amazing two part episode that it's the
biggest reset button I think we've seen in Trek.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
No. I just I just want to throw this out
because we are Battlestar Galacta does not change much. Just
I just want to as a like, if you watch
that mini series and I show you the last season
of VIS You're not gonna be like.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
A whole new show.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
It's like, oh okay, so it's they stayed the same
right over for as far. I just want to throw
that out. It doesn't change.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
But I will say BSG is better about like things
that change, little things that change stay changed. I think
that's the change I'm talking about, Not like it's a
totally different type of show. It's more like we blew
up that ship. You're never gonna see that ship again.
Those people are dead. The impact is now part of
(33:23):
the story. Whereas that is not the case with Voyager.
I mean even the episode where like the doctor's memory
gets jiggered and he's all, like, you know, having to
say with it. We never talk about that ever. Again,
great episode, but it's still an episodic beat and then
we move on.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Well, even the nature of the show like so like
for example in TNG where we mentioned that, you know,
they added more sets after season one or or dja's
nine when they had on the Defiant come in, so
they had some stuff to build out there. With Voyager,
like we had the ship and that was it, Like
they did do the Delta Flyer letter on, but it's
(34:03):
obviously it's much astrometrics.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Daniel, I'm sorry, is.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
That not the entirely about Astrometrics. I literally forgot that set.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Literally built the new character.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Seven comes with the go there much after that.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I really don't remember them spending on.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
No, they go there, they go. That's where seven she
doesn't have a bridge. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
She lives.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
She lives in that corner.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
She has her alcove and she gets like two sets.
She gets the Alcove set and the Astrometrics. But no,
that's where she stands most of her time because she
doesn't have a bridge station until much much later, give
her that little pad.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I remember like them being there in Astrometrics was when
during the Conspiracy Theory episode and and and seven is
spouting off all these conspiracies. For some reason, that six
out in my brain. That's what I remember.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I mean, they use it in the like when they're
using the microwormholes to contact Earth like they Honestly, it's
funny if you think about it. After the extra Astrometrics lab,
we don't go to the conference room like ever. We
are never in that room because it doesn't have a
(35:15):
giant screen, and we never see things like that on
the main bridge view screen. Like again obviously probably reasons
it makes total sense, Like it's like, here's.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Our PowerPoint room.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Where should we have this meeting discussing our future to
the PowerPoint room? And usually it's seven that's discovered the
thing we need to PowerPoint.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
So I'm seeing of it because they did use the
PowerPoint sometimes in the conference, but in my mind, it's
a very small screen, like even compared to them, I
can barely remember what it looks like. I can't.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
It's like this.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
And like even the Enterprise d was like this and
like voyaging, like the back panel, let me show you
in this corner, like and Jane was like, why.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Is it the screen closer to That would have been
funny if they were like our screen was damaged in
the Caretaker events. So here's like a giant pad that
we've glued.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
To the wall slightly.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Askew, you know, got to make it work the whiteboard.
And maybe that's the nature of Star Trek as so
far as it's hard to justify physical change to a
ship when you live in a world of replicators, like
like I would have loved to have, Like, oh yeah,
(36:25):
Deck twelve looks like trash and there's wires everywhere, and
it's always like going to look bad because it's got
major damage. We don't have a space dock to service
for repairs. But in a replicator society, there's no reason
to not have a pristine ship at all times.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Now, Darren, you just made me imagine that on Voyager,
it's established, we'll say deck twelve. On deck twelve, it
was just look it was damage repair Deck twelve. Yeah,
it was just damaged beyond repair. But just like for Rock,
there was like a mount trash heap there and they
and Naomi goes to like visit this thing of wires
(37:06):
that comes alive and that gives her life advice. I
can see it them my mind perfectly.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well I have I remember which was the deck that
blew up when like the whole deck blew up and
exploded into space, which was an amazing shot. But oh yeah,
well it was the haunting of Deck twelve. So that's
what I'm thinking of, because something lived on deck twelve.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
But yeah, yeah, not not you know you you watched
because the season was so short, but like if you
watched season two other than the KS seven switch, and
then you watched like season six episode like it would
be the same show, you know, more or less.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
That would actually be a really interesting thing if you
found a person who had never watched Star Trek and
that is like you know, an adult and you and
you edited or not edited, but you you gathered five
episodes from Voyager and purposely put them in a non
aired order and showed them to them. If they could
(38:09):
detect the order, I don't think they could.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I don't think that map in the back of January's
ready room it looked like the where the Boolager was closer.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I don't have about which they had. It should have
been like, hey, let's pull up where. I mean, I
get not committing to stuff like that in television because
it's not a good idea to force yourself into a box.
But yeah, she should have had a massive map so
we knew where we were on our Voyager.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
All right, So uh, we're not quite so Daniel, and
you want to set up enterprise for us, maybe maybe
break our scale here, but you go ahead, Are we
just doing the Burman era?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Because I feel like we can't really get into maybe
Discovery Truck but I don't think there's much.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Every week, and do we could always save Nutrik for
I mean, I mean, I'll throw that out there, but
go ahead, okay, Enterprise, So.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah, I mean Enterprise. Let's see, Well, Enterprise is what
different different all four seasons? I mean, you cannot watch
an episode of that. This is the exact opposite of Voyage,
where it's like like we like, you watch a random episode,
you might not be able to tell when it is.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
You would definitely be.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Able to tell an Enterprise episode from what's happening and
who's on screen and what's going on because all four
of those seasons one and two are pretty similar.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
But you know, but there's still a shift sort of
in season two.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
But either way, three is obviously very obvious, not the
other four, and then four is full of, uh, you know,
all the stuff we got in season four. So a
lot of change in Enterprise. I think, for sure, never
really got to establish a baseline. I don't think I
think it was sort of up and down all over
the place, you know, tonally and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
But still there's lots of changes, lots of changes.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I think Enterprise is.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
It's like very much like ts where it's very episodic,
but they but they're through line is and here's an
episode that builds towards the founding of the Federation, and
then we're back to like episode of the week and
it's like, oh, but then we had to go back
to Earth and it's you know, so that's kind of
the the overall arc that we get. And then season
(40:17):
three comes and just you know, smashes that and it's
like war has come to Star Trek again, not just.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Star Trek to Florida and knows what it is.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And then I'm I'm probably exaggerating because I don't have
it in front of me season four, but like season
four feels like it has like three part or two
part one episode three part or two part right for
mini arcs. That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
I forgot about that.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Well. Yeah, season three a whole season long arc, Season
four little mini mini arcs, and season one and season
two are actually episodic more more more or less episodics, so.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
You kind of have three flavors as far as the
episode construction. Yeah, yeah, that's good point.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I thought it's interesting, does not have a base line, Yeah,
and again it's we will never know, but say Enterprise
got seven seasons, how would we look back on it?
You know, because then we would have if we still
had one, two, three, I think four would see four
four to seven or you know.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
I think it would be four four to seven. I
think you would continue the mini arc, maybe throwing a
Q like not exactly a que, but there's some sort
of some sort of master villain over a season or
two you know, well actually actually future guying. No, no, no,
I take that back, because we do kind of know
where it was going.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Again.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I was gonna say season five would have been with Strand,
with Stran with the New Enterprise, So at least later
seasons of Enterprise would have been a different, different flavor,
another another new.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I think, yeah, I think that would have really good model.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Right, Yeah, it.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Had been the Wrong Island War, it would have been
a very different show.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
There's like halfway through the intro, it goes into space
Socke and you see them like just bolt on the
lower lower part that it flies out again.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Are you saying are you saying it's like you know
those race cars that go to the pit stops and
then they get yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
It's coming out. It's got like a flame decal on
the side, like, now.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
We can go to war do you see the Vulcan
ship and the Dorian ship go? But I really fast.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Fitted is on the it's like n x.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
O one dot one. It's like why why would like
because it can't be the nx O two because that's.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
The Colombia n x O one final.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Final dot those times actually use this one.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
No, I think.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, I think that would have been season five Onward
would have been And honestly, I'm sad about that because
I think what Jeffer Gums would have brought with Tran
and he would have become the breakout character of He
would have been the doctor for the rest of the
he would have been warf. He would have been the
(43:18):
main lens that we see the show through, I think.
But it wasn't to be.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
So, not that we're short on time, but we're sort
of not long on time to the other So we'll
go a little quick here. So Darren, I know you
haven't watched it all, but what little you have watched
A discovery little change, medium change, lots of change.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yeah, I mean when they jump into the thirty second century,
it's a little bit of a change, but yeah, no, I.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Think Captain changes every year.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah right, I mean, as Daniel was saying, like, oh,
you can't really tell what season you're No, you you
can tell what season you're in with with Voyage or
were the.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Season Discovery and this is not but like even season
one's two halves, like it's playing on part and it's
mirror part and it's you.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Know right, Yeah, no, No, definitely Discovery has a lot
of change. And you know, I don't begret it that.
I don't feel like in Modern Trek you should be oh,
it's trying to find itself and it's just throwing everything
out and changing it. It's like, no, it's it's it's
(44:35):
okay to have a big change and try something different.
I mean if you I don't think you could. I
mean you can have your opinion, but I don't think
it's fair to judge Discovery as changing too much. But
then looking at something like Picard and being like, oh
it changed just enough, It's like no, Picard's completely changed
(44:56):
as well, every single like so much so it's almost
three different shows. But you know that's getting ahead. But yeah, no, Discovery,
I mean, yeah, it it changes a lot, probably more
so than any other show that has at least a
five season run.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
You modified it, I'll do Picard real quickly, You'll be
doing lower decks, Daniel so Picard. Yeah, as we've said,
and this is my personal opinion, totally different show every season,
for better, for worse, depending upon your taste, your mileagemcvary.
But like first season is it's a story, and then
the second season is time travel, nothing to do with
(45:39):
Star Trek. Really, I mean, I don't sounds like I'm critiquing.
I don't mean, I mean, there's nothing to do with
the Star Trek universe. It's just the characters. But they're
not doing Star Trek stuff. They're doing action stuff. And
then season three is, well, I don't think it's enough
to say a fan service because I I fight back
about that because I'm like, you take away the enterprise
(46:01):
Dave just in like thirty minutes of the whole third season,
and then yes, you get the characters back, but like,
I mean, it's all about Jack. That's not that's not
you know, fan service. So I mean, like to me,
it's just it's a it's a whole different story than
season one anyway, but to me, very very different show.
Depending on which season, I can easily tell what season
(46:23):
of Picard I'm in it. And if you showed me
an episode, turn off the sound, I can watch I'll take.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
You, which is the one with Picard and he's wearing
an eyepatch and he's little dance.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
One to me, I am.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Okay, all right, So that was the quickie, Daniel, lordeck.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
Lowd X is a cartoon. It doesn't change at all.
It's all the same. But what what No, it's different,
we get different pips. But it was season three three,
I think, yeah, you know, it's it's uh, there's definitely
lots of changes, for sure. The first two seasons follow
little to me, but I think definitely passed season two.
(47:05):
They've definitely sort of been charting their own course into
their own direction.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
So I mean I think back to, yeah, the first
two seasons, Like you said, Daniel, I remember us critiquing
it of like, oh, look an episode where it's Boimler
and Mariner go off and do a and tend and
you know, Rutherford do be like the same pairings all
(47:29):
the time, and I remember us critiquing it for that
and being like, shake it up. And then they finally did.
But yeah, I would say that is kind of a change.
To me, is that once they really start to shake
up the pairings, because it does stay like that a
b pairing for a long time. In the beginning, we.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Got to Lenn, Yeah that's true.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
That's true, and Benji, the fifth Power Ranger showed up,
and now we can form the Mega.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Len use her flute yet for she told me.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Is the the White Ranger Dragons Ordans the fifth one out?
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yeah? No, yeah, I think not a radical change, but
I think it's it's not even more settling because I
think it's the way they tell the stories. It's me
it's an orrible thing which fell merit agree or disagree
with where they got more comfortable with telling like legitimate
stories as far as just a comedy, nothing wrong with
the comedy, but this is like, we're going to make
(48:26):
you feel like there's actual stakes here and there's drama
and there's and so not a radical change. You could
say it's just settling in, but I think you can
kind of tell them.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
I think lower decks also, and I'll give it props
for this. I think it is one of the most
balanced shows as far as Yeah, obviously is it's like
the slight difference of we're telling us a ten episode story,
but the chunks of it are going to feel episodic
(48:57):
enough that you're going to have a favorite. So I
feel often other television or even Star Trek won't hit
that right balance where it will either feel very you know, linear,
and you're like, oh, well, yeah this is cool, but
I'm not going to ever watch episode two because nothing
really stands out in episode two, you know, but with
(49:18):
lower decks, I think it does nail that balance where yeah,
episode two is part of the bigger story, but it's
also stands on its own, and you could watch just
that and not feel like you're missing out on the
overall plot.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
That's my view, during which pure quick thought strange. I know,
you talk a little bit strange. New Worlds changed, little change,
medium changed.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
I mean, we only got twenty episodes, guys, we don't
have a lot to go on.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
But no, it's.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
No I still will say it changes. I think a
lot of people will say between season one and two,
it it's taking a little more risks, it's becoming a
little more of its own show. You know, you're adding,
you're starting to add more and more ts characters, and
you're going to get even more of that in season three.
(50:08):
So yeah, this is like the hardest one to judge,
I feel, maybe because it is still in production and
it's like so short, you know, it's like saying, let's judge,
it's like judging the animated series. Yeah, it's just like
there's not enough meat to form an opinion. So I'm
(50:28):
going to defer that for another couple of years and
then we'll get back to that.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
I have no problem if not hasn't changed at all.
What about you, Dany?
Speaker 3 (50:35):
Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I'm trying to think of
any changes between season one and two, and the only
thing I can think of as the engineer that died
and now we have and now of course we've seen
in season three that Scotty comes in, so I, you know,
to me, it feels a very consistent show. The tone,
like like it hit that tone early and sort of
(50:57):
holding on to it with all of its fingers. So
it feels very to me. It doesn't feel like it's
changed a ton. But again, like like Darren says, the
sample size is very small, like this is literally less
than one season of you know, Tengiorducers nine or something
like that. That's what we've got to deal with here,
So it's it's really sort of tough to say.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
I mean I would close up and counter with Prodigy,
which is only had two seasons, but that's forty episodes.
So I feel like I'm pretty in my opinion. It
hasn't changed a lot. But again, we were discussing this earlier.
The tone has somewhat changed in that I feel like
(51:35):
the first season is a kids show hand quotes. Second season,
I mean like they're starting to hit that upper boundary
of a kid show. I mean, that's not a complaint
why fewer plus, but there's some episodes like if I
and again I don't know, like I was ten and
nine when I watched TENJ So you know, I'm not
thinking it's going to scar the kids for life, but
I'm just saying, like, where I a sensitive parent of
(51:57):
like a I don't know seven old. I mean, some
of those episode will be like, hmmm, we'll think of
it about this one.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
The kids who watched season one when it first came
out are now twenty seven years old, so I don't
know if that makes you feel old, but that's just
how long that show has been in production.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
So yeah, and that's how to complaint. I'm just saying
it's it's a slight change that I've seen Prodigy. I
don't know, Daniel, or.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
I mean, it's so long. It's funny that, like, I know,
it doesn't really matter, but like technically Prodigy came out
before Strange Worlds, like a year before, but it feels
like Stranger Worlds has been around longer because it's been
more consistent. Cool.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
All right, Well we'll close it there and shure there's
more to say. And this is all to say, nothing
wrong with consistency. I don't want anyone to take that away, like, oh,
if you don't change your sucking, it's nothing wrong with it.
You know, it's like your favorite food if you you
know so it is is every time you pick it up.
Nothing wrong with that. But you know, certain shows have
take in other directions than others. All right, Daniel, If
folks want to talk to you about which way they
(52:59):
can change their form the best, where can they find you?
Speaker 3 (53:02):
Well, there is only one good way to change the uniform,
and that is not to change it at all.
Speaker 4 (53:07):
They can find me at one of Dan that's the
number won not.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
And Darren, if folks want to talk to you about
how lower Decks will change its last title sequence, where
can they find Oh.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
There you go. Uh, we're going to add vgre is
going to show up the cloud, the vesionic cloud is
going to develop that entire scene.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
But they can find me at doctor sci Fi dot
com d R s c I F I.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
And if folks want to talk to me about how
we can change our podcast co host, they can find
me on Instagram at C A P T. Sorry, guys,
you didn't want you. You wanted some uh he wanted
lots of change.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
That sounded like, so you came up with this topic.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
I heard the way you were scoring. We'll do some
Battlestar galactic things, you know, don't know which one you're
gonna die. So but I have it's three in the
background on my white board over here. So we'll see
what happens until next week. So, yes, until next week.
I'm Philip Gilphis, I'm.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Daniel Prue, and I'm Darren Moser.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Stranded here on City Alpha three
Welcome to the Nerd Party.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm Darren Moser, I'm Philip Gilphus, I'm Daniel Prue, and.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
This is City Alpha three.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello, and welcome to City Alpha three of Star Trek
podcast here on the Nerd Party. I'm Philip, joined by
Daniel and Darren, and we continue in an era of
no real news Star Trek. I mean, you know, prodidgu
Season two is on Netflix, so if it's new to you,
keep on watching. But as far as anything coming out
(00:46):
or anything that we know coming out in this calendar
year of twenty twenty four, I mean that's it, right, No,
nothing that we know of enjoy what you got, kids.
You got Star Trek at home, So daring any other
Star Trek you are enjoying in this time of arrest
(01:06):
in the franchise.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Maybe yeah, no, just we'll probably obviously working on finishing Prodigy.
And then yeah, I'm not sure. I've started to get
a little bit of a niche to to rewatch some
some classic Berman era Trek. I'm not sure what yet,
So thank you something.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Ge season one is pretty good. And then Daniel, what
about you you doing any Treking?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
No, I haven't for a bit, but I do yeah,
since we're gonna I know, we're gonna be talking about
Prodigy soon.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
I gotta get back on the wagon and catch the
rest of that season.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
No other than that, I have not not been doing
anything Star Truk related.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah I am. I'm not gonna look out and google
it right now. I am in the I. As I've
said before, I've been watching Doctor, the first Doctor, and
I'm on his second excuse me, third season, third season,
and I think I'm nearing the end. So as soon
as I finished that, I may. I don't know, I
have to figure out what to do because like it's
(02:06):
sort of like a Tas situation Darren where his fourth
series is like two stories and then he regenerates and
then it's the Second Doctor. So it's like, well, do
I just finish the First Doctor? But anyway, my then
I'm going to go do season two of TNG. So
I'm kind of breaking my.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Between the series, so don't get confused.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, But as I was sort of thinking about this
because I'm sort of like, you know, I'm you know,
instead of doing real work, I concentrate on this instead
of like, Okay, well I'm gonna watch what am I
going to watch, so I'm like, okay, TG season two
and then you know, as I'm about on social networking,
it was either on Twitter or Facebook. Some had referenced
season two TNG, which I thought about this before in
(02:52):
the past, and they're like, man, season two, like new Doctor,
new Tin, Fulward, new Guy. And it's like, I mean
a lot of new stuff happens in season two.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Point like it's hard to remember back then, but like
and now, in the context of what we all know,
we know that a lot of that was just kind
of a blip. But yeah, that's true. Like imagine watching
a new show nowadays and then so much changes in
the second season you'd be like, oh my gosh, Like
what is Corse in Yellow?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Jordi gets promoted sent to engineering. I mean, it's it's
a whole bunch of new stuff. So that got me
thinking about, you know, of course TNG itself, how much
a series changes, you know, and some do and some do,
So I thought that would be our topic today, talking
about each Star Trek series and how much change or
(03:41):
how much it changed or evolved or de evolved or
whatever verb you want to use that means change across
its span, whatever you want to call it so, and
you know, we can either come up with a score
or just say a lot, a little whatever that make
me be a PhD interest to variables.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
So it can it be like a Pulaski score on
a scale of one Pulaski to zero Pulaski's how many
how much it had to change data?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, so why not start at the beginning and we'll
kind of kind of we'll talk everything, but we'll kind
of start the discussion route in Robin style. I've thrown
this on you, but anyway, so I'll start with COOS,
which I would say it depends how you categorize CS
and how you want to think about it, which is
up to you. But this is this is my dilemma
(04:33):
because there's sort of TOOS as it aired, which I
know is all before our time, but at TOS as
it aired, which is like I think the second season
and third season we're kind of in order. But first
season was like they threw it all up in the
sky and picked it up and that's how they aired it.
Because like the second pilot where no man has gone
before is like the fourth episode, so like you're watching
(04:53):
it in something one episode, they all change uniforms, and
then who's this scary Mitchell guy? And then the next
episode they're back. But I'm going to take a holistic view,
which is my choice. You don't have to if you
take it from the cage and then to where no
man has gone before and then to regular maybe TOS
(05:13):
that you think of. I mean, it did it change
a lot, but it didn't change zero either, So I
don't know that. That's sort of how I'm looking at it,
you know, so far, so like you know a little
you know, or like a three, But I don't know,
so Daniel, what you're sort of thought about? How much
(05:33):
did TOS change over it's three years?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, I mean, you know someone like you know, we
know those fans that are super duper TOS people That
is not me so but some people will definitely probably
chime in and say that I'm wrong or maybe under reporting.
But in my brain it's sort of all the same,
Like you say, like in the very very early couple
of episodes, it's very like weird and fuzzy and things are,
(06:00):
rules are different and things are. But like after it
settles a couple of episodes in I feel like if
I didn't know the order of TOS or like or
at least some of it, Like if you threw a
season three episode in, I wouldn't be able to tell,
Like I wouldn't know. It's still kind of the same
to me. Like so to me, I don't think it
changed significantly. There's no I guess some checkof right he
(06:22):
comes to the season two he's a character that does change,
So there's at least a new character that sort of
denotes some sort of change. But other than that, like,
I can't think of any big major like you know,
people changes or anything like that. And unless I'm forgetting something,
there's nothing like major that happens that shakes things up
(06:43):
or there's no brand new sets or anything like that.
It's all sort of the same.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I don't think. I don't think it changes much, that's
for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yeah, rand yeomen Rand, I don't know exactly when, but
vaguely she disappears after season one, so but that would
be the other Darren, what about you for TOS changing, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Factor, I mean, I'm pretty sure again I TOS is
like my least knowledgeable series. But I don't think Kirk
gets like the green wrap around until later. That's so
that's a little bit of a uniform. But yeah, for
the most part, I mean all the shots of the
outside of the Enterprise are the same, like, none of
(07:23):
that changes. So yeah, it's maybe and like I agree
with you Daniel on like the set changes, but I
kind of feel like they might have gotten a little
bit bigger engineering or something like that I think progressed
throughout the season.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
They might.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I can't imagine they didn't add any sets over three years,
but they could have. Like it's it's really hard to say,
but yeah, it's it's so funny because I almost feel like, like,
obviously it's a product, it's time, and it's very episodic,
but I almost feel like it's strange watching Strange New
(08:07):
Worlds now, which is so much more connected like episode
to episode, and it's still episodic in a way, like
a next gen kind of way. But I kind of
feel like TOS would have benefited more from a through
put story or at least how strange the world does
(08:27):
it than it did Obviously, you know, that's like rewriting history,
but I think that would have been an interesting change.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
And it's hard to well, I mean, maybe it's not hard,
but it's semi hard to be objected about if you're
going to say you're watching tos in production order, air order,
if you pick whatever you want to do, but this
whole because we just think, oh, Kirk, Spock and McCoy,
but like that, like McCoy doesn't get I mean, DeForest
doesn't even get billing until the third season, like as
(08:58):
far as in the open because then like the credits
are William Shatt near letter Nimoy and that's it. And
then third season they had d so like that trio
dynamic you know, evolved obviously then just like we know
this is what it's going to be day one and
then yeah, I don't know, it's obviously it's very small.
I'm not going to say like they did some big
swing or something, but obviously they had to find what
(09:20):
kind of show they were. But yeah, it's not anything
huge as far as anything else. No, yeah, okay, and.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Even like I mean I know that there was famously
some but but like the production was this was largely
the same or like Gene ran the whole thing, the
whole for all three years and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Like I think that sort of stuff too, even because
it just feels the same.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
It's just sort of like and it's only three seasons too,
so it's like they didn't even have that much time
to change really, so it's like and obviously by the
third season they were sort of on the ropes.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Although if you think about a number of episodes, like
that's like six seasons of changing worlds, Like there's over
twenty episodes per season.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Seventy three episodes, seventy eight and the seventy something sticks
in my head for yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
But yeah, well one season of TS had at least
twice the number of episodes as like a modern Trek
would have. Come on, why don't you knows?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
All right, well, Daniel, do you want to kind of
just frame TNG force and.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Then we'll yeah, sure, I mean it's a little show
that most most people probably don't now, of course, I
mean there's definitely we probably know the best, but it
has some story history. Of course, we've watched all of them,
you know, the Bridge one, what was it called, what's
it called? The Chaos on the Bridge? Kasos on the Bridge?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
The way another spoiler, But like I was watching Prodigy
and the word wakado does get us? I wonder they
got to be making that reference.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So yeah, I mean TG, obviously you know premiere in
nineteen eighty seven and the first two seasons are famously
very different than the from three on, So I definitely
think this will be in the run running for like
at least most changes that we noticed or that because
we we all lived through at the time too as well,
and of course it had the full seven year span,
(11:26):
so lots of changes. Although and we can get into it,
I would argue season three to seven pretty uniform. They're pretty,
They're pretty Uh, it was a pretty found their groove,
they like, they settle it, they settle into it.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
And you know, they went with it. So so TG,
what do you think?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Darren? Well, I'm first going to answer Phillip's question because
I found a thank you Wikipedia for a nice list
of every series and how many episodes they had. So yeah,
original series had seventy nine episodes, Enterprise had ninety eight,
so it had slightly more. But then we kind of
(12:04):
fall off a cliff and Discovery at sixty five and
Lower Decks and Prodigy are sitting at forty and Strange
Your World is only at twenty, So.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
How many did Strange you sor how many did Discovery have.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Discovery had sixty five, so less.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Than less than tos even though it was on air
three times as long, it felt like.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So well five seasons, so three to five seasons, but they.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Took breaks and stuff, so they were definitely.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, and the number of episodes, you know, for sure,
at the point Discovery the Discovery was twenty seventeen to
twenty twenty four, whereas the original series was sixty six
to sixty nine, so they did it much faster back then.
But yeah, but to your other question about changes with TNG, yeah,
(12:55):
it I mean what we already kind of said about
season two, like that's obviously the biggest of changes.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
But.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I would say it's almost in a DS nine way
because later seasons, like some of the things they try
to set up for DS nine, like the Marquis, you know,
that's kind of different, like setting up this kind of
new species very late in the series and explaining, you know,
(13:26):
fleshing out Cardassians more and makeye more Jorans introducing that species.
So I mean, it's not changing the format of the show,
but I would say things like that where they're trying
to prep for the next iteration is a bit of
a change.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, it's hard, I mean, because I feel like we're
always slightly tingy defensive as people are like, oh, it's
so episodic, it's all the same. Well no, no, it's
totally different. There's lots of character. You just got to
look at it. Here's a magnifying glass. But roughly, you know,
to be crude, you know, season one and two you
can put on the side, and then three and seven
(14:11):
that side. I think the card does change, not radically,
but he does change. And again that's a one to
two verse three seven. But I mean it's there, it's
not not there.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, and it's you'd I think we're trying to claim
differences besides actors becoming comfortable in their roles, because you're
always going to get that in that first season or
two of any show. In Star Trek, I.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Mean, you have a raker beard period versus the not.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I mean, that's an interesting line to cut on, but
you're right, well, you know, and.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
To be fair too, we're kind of lumping them together.
But season and one and season two are very different
from each other.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
So sure it was like there there was a lot
of changes going into season two, and then of course
even more changes going into season three.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
You know, obviously the writing.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
And the production itself, but there's just a lot. There's
just a lot that evolved and change. So it's it's
almost it's tough to sort of like you don't want
to lump them together, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
It's just because they're different from each other.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I'm going to have those I'm going to find, and
I don't think they exist. I want to find those
like TNG fans, kind of like Enterprise, which we'll get
too about. I feel like Enterprise fans, we're going to
have definite places where they fall in as far as seasons.
But I want like the TG diehards that are like
no collars as it was meant to be, you know,
TG purists they ruined it after season three, supposed to
(15:43):
be synth music and spandex uniforms.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
I don't know if they exist. I mean you could,
you could wear those uniforms for.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Sure, and then just have like a key tar with you.
So cool, all right, And then Darren, before I get
you to do DS nine briefly, I mean, well, you
take as long as you want, but I just figure
it would be brief, what would you say, how much
did TAS change in your opinion? I mean, actually, it'd
(16:16):
be interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
It's easier to take TAS and just lump it with
the original series because it's rightly so often called just
season four of the original series just happens to be animated.
So yeah, I mean, obviously the biggest change, if you
look at it in that light, is you know, more aliens,
(16:37):
you know, just the things that you can do with
an animation budget visually versus practicality. Yeah, you know that sideways, motion,
life belts, all that stuff. So there's quite a few
changes in those twenty two episodes, still more episodes than
Stranger Worlds at the time of this recording. Just putting
(16:57):
that out there, they're winning by two. I don't think
that's gonna last much longer.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Cool, all right, So you want to frame DS nine
forest Damn.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, it's I mean episodic television.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
We got some long form story. But again I say that,
yet it's not like modern long form story. It's not
like well, it's not like Battlestar Galactica, like the reboot,
which was much more like it. There are definitely shows
now that we all can think of them where you
(17:36):
wouldn't really pull out a single episode, or it's very rare,
like there's maybe one in a season where you'd be like, Okay,
that's that's kind of a standalone that I might rewatch
for fun, but otherwise you feel like, oh, I need
to watch the whole season.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
It's like you said, Philip, it's only ten episodes, so
it's very easy. But I think, yeah, DS nine is
in that sweet spot of you're you're still an episodic television,
but you're allowing your characters to develop and change. I mean,
(18:12):
my goodness, you know the difference between Clark in season
one versus season seven, you know the difference between Miles,
any of our main characters have grown. Adding Wharf, I
would have to say that's kind of a line in
the sand. If I had to pick it, it's the
pre Wharf days. And remind me, was it season four
(18:33):
discovered they discovered.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Warf It's the start of season four.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So three seasons and then season four onward. I think
that's a bit of a line. I mean, some would
say the Dominion War, but really we're building up to
that through the entire show. In a way. It's just
the climax of that arc. So I think the wharf,
the wharf, the wharf effect is is a you know,
(19:02):
and we're also getting I need they were myself when
we got The Defiant, because I think that was a
little in season three. Okay, so it's like a time release.
We we get a ship and then we get a
klingon to put on the ship, and then you know, like.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That's that's really a war to put the cling on
and then a war.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
To put the ship and the cling on in. I mean,
you know, they did what they were doing. But you know,
even though The Defiant is a line, I think Wharf
is a stronger difference between pre Wharf and postwarf.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
You mentioned how much characters grow, and I think Jake
actually grew two feet No, I mean we're talking over
seven years.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I mean he kept that bus seat print company in
in in massive profits for all those seven years.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, because I mean, well, and people can define change
however they want to. But like, I'm not even trying
to think character growth because that's quote unquote normal in
a show. It's more like a star play should be yeah,
should yeah, But like I to me as far as
the shows we have talked about in order so far,
I think this night has the most change, I mean as.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Far as uniforms.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, and it's I think, you know, and again we're
slightly joking but not really. I mean Cisco appearance like
beard not beard, hair not hair, Like that's sort of
the Riker's beard of it all because I mean, and
you can say it's them getting comfortable both behind the
scenes and in front of the in front of the camera.
But like it's a it's not a radically different show,
(20:40):
but it is a different show than Hey, we're just
on the station.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Still starting to kind of judge it differently than all
other Star Trek shows. You really, it's in its own category.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Like as Niners, which I'm I mean, you know, I
like the show, but I don't love the show. But
like Niners, I like, I wonder when when they're trying
to get people into it, do they say started a
season or do they like that's a really good question.
The first two seasons and then and then you know, I.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Feel like we did this, like did we do an
episode where we like had our introductions to each show,
like like a short list of where to start. I
feel like, I feel like in the three hundred ish episodes,
almost four hundred episodes that we got.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Never repeated a topic, don't I do think there.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Are It is pretty pretty people do generally would recommend
like season four as a starting point with Warrior and
stuff like that, just because yeah, like because the beginning
of the show is a bit slower, and you know
that build up is is it's tough when people are
used to like jumping into like say, modern television, like
(21:50):
you know, breaking band or something or something hit.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
It starts so much stronger, so much.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Faster, and it's like, you know, the time definitely takes
a while to get going for sure. So I could definitely,
I definitely I recognize why somebody would would sort of say, hey,
start here and then you can go back and like
watch the rest as filler. Like you can see it
like build later on. You know, the characters might be
characters and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Now and your complaints were calling the first season three
seasons filler. Send to Daniel at one up. Dan is
the number one, not the.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Word Well, and that's interesting just describe it that way,
because I could see some people saying, whether it's ten
ger or whatever, just oh skip that season to start here.
But I like how you said it, Daniel, of start
at four, watch the whole thing, then go back and
then you'll appreciate it, because, like I mean, and again,
not not my favorite series. But it's not like we're
(22:43):
saying I don't think any of us are saying that,
like the first two seasons are dead. I mean there's
stuff there obviously, you know the I can't think it's
like the famous ones like the Kardassian prisoner guy and
you know that's season one, I believe, and then like
the Circle Trilogy and did My Key and did all
that stuff to one through three, all that stuff. But yeah,
as far as the sort of the speed and the
focus and even the look and the yeah, I just
(23:07):
it sort of gels a little. It's a late bloomer, right,
I mean I think as DS nine.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
Yeah, I think that's fair to say.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
It's not like, oh, it took us a season that
like it took and I don't even want to go
all behind the scenes. Just as a viewer, it took
a while to get to. As you look at season seven,
you're like, oh, well, it took probably season three four
to really get where they wanted to.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Get and again that I think that's also the big
difference in DS nine is I mean, think of coming
from TNG as a writer, like you're a writer or
you're developing this show and it's very Planet of the
Week and Adventure of the Week, and you know, it's
Star Trek. It's you go to a new place and
you tell a new story. And yeah, it took them
a while to kind of realize go to a new place, right, Well,
(23:50):
that's what I'm saying is that is they kind of
try that in the beginning where it's like, oh, the
people just come to them, and that kind of works
in season one. You know, I'm looking at you, Wattie
with your Ala Moraine. But I think where Diestein really
starts to thrive is when they realize, oh, it really
(24:12):
is a story about this corner of the galaxy, this
frontier town, and it's it's kind of separate there, I know,
but but really it's about that story in this corner,
because if you think about it, we don't really talk
(24:33):
about the rest of the federation, like, yeah, besides the
random trip to Rhizo or Earth, like we're not interacting
with other you know Trek aliens nearly as much like
obviously we see Romulans and we see Cardassians and Klingons,
like I understand that, but I'm saying the focus becomes
(24:54):
what is the story of this place. It's a you know,
it's a place story, and and once they really get
on that wagon train, then uh, then it really it
really takes off. So I'm oversimplifying obviously a little.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
But yeah, it's just the nature of Space nine where.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
You know, it was, like you mentioned earlier, Darren, it
was trying to sort of straddle the line. It was
trying to it finds a way to sort of be
both episodic and serialized, you know, and it was pushing
that serialization further than we had seen up to that
point really in Star Trek.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
So but it does it really well, almost too well.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Where it's like like we mentioned, like the first couple
of seasons, Yeah, it's a slow burn. It's it is
it's a lot of character, it's it's a lot of groundwork.
It's being very deliberately and clearly laid for what happens
later on in the series. So of course, if you're jumping,
if you're dropping somebody into the into Deep Space nine.
The back half of it is going to have more payoff.
(25:56):
It's going to be more immediately watchable and more you're
more reward you're gonna get up seeing it.
Speaker 4 (26:03):
But that I think is not by no means bad,
but it's just by the nature of it.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
The whole show is literally changing the entire time, Like
the show is always evolving and growing. I would argue
it's literally building up until the Dominion War, so lots
of changes, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
I think you really nailed it with the word payoff,
and I think that's that's probably why we love the
end of d S nine so much, Like we're like,
oh my gosh, the last ten episodes, oh, the last season,
like it all comes together. I mean, yeah, slight bits
a plot, but for the most part, like, yeah, it's
all payoff for years of story build up and fortunately
(26:43):
they landed it and we didn't have a Game of
Throne situation.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Well depending on how you feel about Fisco, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
We didn't go crazy and kill everybody on the station,
you know. But well, and one other thing I will
say about d S nine is, I mean we joke
about like it being long form and not episodic.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yet I do remember an episode or.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Two where like the Founders like sabotaged and like blew
up a portion of the outer dotting docking ring, which
I think was fixed within like two episodes.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
There's uploading in space. He's a scrap the little welders,
you know.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
So I was like, you know, as much credit as
I give DS nine, I'm like, it still fell into
the everything's back to status quo by you know, the
end of an episode or two at most. But I'm like,
because how cool would that have been if for the
rest of the show, which I think at that point
would have been like a season and a half or something,
(27:46):
you know, at most, you have this huge chunk missing
of the station. I think that would have been you know,
update the the graphics. Like I understand the fin commitment
to that kind of a change, but I think that
would have been awesome.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
That I might come back later something on the ship changing.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Maybe we'll talk.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
About sure, well, any final nine thoughts.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, Daniel is already talking about Voyager now, so well.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Speaking of reset button, I don't kick off Voyder here. Look,
I well, I don't know I feel I can say this,
but maybe I'm wrong. I'm probably the person who loves
Voyager of the most here. But I mean I would argue,
as far as Voyager, what I for me, it's a
show that found itself immediately. To me, I mean, there
(28:34):
was no finding like this is it. We are this crew,
they are home, these are the characters, and we're going
to be doing this for the whole seven years. What's
the show about.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Well, let me show you Caretaker and that's pretty much
what it's going.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
To be about.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I mean, and you know again I'm not. I don't
and you can, but I'm not. Don't talk character development
because there is. I mean, I would argue there's a doctor.
I mean, for one thing, that's the biggest character development
you doesn't show up to like really like the fifth
episode or something, and even kess two, but anyway, I
won't go into it. But as far as like overall changes,
I mean, yes, seven, I mean, if Kessley seven arrives,
(29:14):
So if you wanted to divide Voyager that way, you could,
I suppose. I mean to me, there's not a ten
or tenor change. And as much as unless you just
want to say like, oh well, then they start to
focus more on Januay and seven and the doctrine becomes
that lower of a show, which that's an argument, but
as far as overall, to me, I don't think that
show changes. I mean, if we're looking at like now
(29:34):
DS nine and TG, I would rank Voyidger below them
as far as change factor. But what do you think.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
I mean, they didn't even change the uniforms.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
They didn't, and they had.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
The perfect opportunity.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
The only so far to date, seven changed your uniform
more than anyone else other.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Than TOS I'm talking Live action, the only series to
date that it did not change its opening titles. TG
had two and changed its music. Would your same music,
same opening all of a sudden.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
It's a beautiful opening, perfection. Yeah, you don't have to
change it at all. Yeah, yeah, Philip will look at
this one way. I will certainly look at it the
exact opposite way, But I do. Yeah, I mean, to
be fair, it's a remarkable amount of consistency with Voyager.
Like you say, what you see in the beginning is
very very close to what you get throughout the whole show.
And like you said, I guess the one big divide
(30:28):
would be pre and post seven, and I guess that's
when when Voyager got a little sexier kind of I guess,
like that's what they were trying to do.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I read that TV guide. I know what I'm supposed
to feel like.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I can see like the executive meeting, like we want
to sex up Voyager and they're like, okay, Like and
then they do that, like no, the boy.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
They're like, what's the sexiest character? Well, the forg Like really, really,
that's the one you think of? Sick, Yeah, tubes everywhere?
Speaker 3 (31:01):
What all right?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Higher than you're five?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
The pastor's skin. No, they would like look like zombies, dude.
And then they show the mis sketches seven and nine.
They're like, oh, okay, I get what you're doing. I
get what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
You got your little anti border you were doing in
the corner there. Okay, you're weirdo, but I mean we
should do it.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
But yeah, we know.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I'm just picturing that meme where it's like they're in
the conference room and then the one person says something
at the end of the table and the next shot
is them like flying out the window, being you know, tossed.
It's like it's like, how do we how do we
make Voyage. You better. It's like, what about we bring
the Boorg And it's like, uh yeah, No, I think
you're totally right, Daniel. It's a very consistent show, and
obviously there's change and character growth and all of that. Like,
(31:51):
but the formula of a season seven episode of hey,
we came across this planet and we can help these people,
but we're going to be gone in a day, like
that's kind of there the entire run. Uh it. You know,
if it had really changed, it would have been again,
probably more like Battlestar Galactica, where you know, the you know,
(32:14):
Voyager is more of a flotilla of starships towards the end,
it's a community that are flying together off to different destinations.
Like you know, obviously per budget, that's a lot more
to accomplish, but you know, everything is you know, they're
they're the master of the reset button. I mean, they
(32:35):
even have an amazing two part episode that it's the
biggest reset button I think we've seen in Trek.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
No. I just I just want to throw this out
because we are Battlestar Galacta does not change much. Just
I just want to as a like, if you watch
that mini series and I show you the last season
of VIS You're not gonna be like.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
A whole new show.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
It's like, oh okay, so it's they stayed the same
right over for as far. I just want to throw
that out. It doesn't change.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
But I will say BSG is better about like things
that change, little things that change stay changed. I think
that's the change I'm talking about, Not like it's a
totally different type of show. It's more like we blew
up that ship. You're never gonna see that ship again.
Those people are dead. The impact is now part of
(33:23):
the story. Whereas that is not the case with Voyager.
I mean even the episode where like the doctor's memory
gets jiggered and he's all, like, you know, having to
say with it. We never talk about that ever. Again,
great episode, but it's still an episodic beat and then
we move on.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Well, even the nature of the show like so like
for example in TNG where we mentioned that, you know,
they added more sets after season one or or dja's
nine when they had on the Defiant come in, so
they had some stuff to build out there. With Voyager,
like we had the ship and that was it, Like
they did do the Delta Flyer letter on, but it's
(34:03):
obviously it's much astrometrics.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Daniel, I'm sorry, is.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
That not the entirely about Astrometrics. I literally forgot that set.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Literally built the new character.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Seven comes with the go there much after that.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
I really don't remember them spending on.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
No, they go there, they go. That's where seven she
doesn't have a bridge. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
She lives.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
She lives in that corner.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
She has her alcove and she gets like two sets.
She gets the Alcove set and the Astrometrics. But no,
that's where she stands most of her time because she
doesn't have a bridge station until much much later, give
her that little pad.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
I remember like them being there in Astrometrics was when
during the Conspiracy Theory episode and and and seven is
spouting off all these conspiracies. For some reason, that six
out in my brain. That's what I remember.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I mean, they use it in the like when they're
using the microwormholes to contact Earth like they Honestly, it's
funny if you think about it. After the extra Astrometrics lab,
we don't go to the conference room like ever. We
are never in that room because it doesn't have a
(35:15):
giant screen, and we never see things like that on
the main bridge view screen. Like again obviously probably reasons
it makes total sense, Like it's like, here's.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Our PowerPoint room.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Where should we have this meeting discussing our future to
the PowerPoint room? And usually it's seven that's discovered the
thing we need to PowerPoint.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
So I'm seeing of it because they did use the
PowerPoint sometimes in the conference, but in my mind, it's
a very small screen, like even compared to them, I
can barely remember what it looks like. I can't.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
It's like this.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
And like even the Enterprise d was like this and
like voyaging, like the back panel, let me show you
in this corner, like and Jane was like, why.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Is it the screen closer to That would have been
funny if they were like our screen was damaged in
the Caretaker events. So here's like a giant pad that
we've glued.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
To the wall slightly.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Askew, you know, got to make it work the whiteboard.
And maybe that's the nature of Star Trek as so
far as it's hard to justify physical change to a
ship when you live in a world of replicators, like
like I would have loved to have, Like, oh yeah,
(36:25):
Deck twelve looks like trash and there's wires everywhere, and
it's always like going to look bad because it's got
major damage. We don't have a space dock to service
for repairs. But in a replicator society, there's no reason
to not have a pristine ship at all times.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Now, Darren, you just made me imagine that on Voyager,
it's established, we'll say deck twelve. On deck twelve, it
was just look it was damage repair Deck twelve. Yeah,
it was just damaged beyond repair. But just like for Rock,
there was like a mount trash heap there and they
and Naomi goes to like visit this thing of wires
(37:06):
that comes alive and that gives her life advice. I
can see it them my mind perfectly.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well I have I remember which was the deck that
blew up when like the whole deck blew up and
exploded into space, which was an amazing shot. But oh yeah,
well it was the haunting of Deck twelve. So that's
what I'm thinking of, because something lived on deck twelve.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
But yeah, yeah, not not you know you you watched
because the season was so short, but like if you
watched season two other than the KS seven switch, and
then you watched like season six episode like it would
be the same show, you know, more or less.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
That would actually be a really interesting thing if you
found a person who had never watched Star Trek and
that is like you know, an adult and you and
you edited or not edited, but you you gathered five
episodes from Voyager and purposely put them in a non
aired order and showed them to them. If they could
(38:09):
detect the order, I don't think they could.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I don't think that map in the back of January's
ready room it looked like the where the Boolager was closer.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
I don't have about which they had. It should have
been like, hey, let's pull up where. I mean, I
get not committing to stuff like that in television because
it's not a good idea to force yourself into a box.
But yeah, she should have had a massive map so
we knew where we were on our Voyager.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
All right, So uh, we're not quite so Daniel, and
you want to set up enterprise for us, maybe maybe
break our scale here, but you go ahead, Are we
just doing the Burman era?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Because I feel like we can't really get into maybe
Discovery Truck but I don't think there's much.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Every week, and do we could always save Nutrik for
I mean, I mean, I'll throw that out there, but
go ahead, okay, Enterprise, So.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah, I mean Enterprise. Let's see, Well, Enterprise is what
different different all four seasons? I mean, you cannot watch
an episode of that. This is the exact opposite of Voyage,
where it's like like we like, you watch a random episode,
you might not be able to tell when it is.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
You would definitely be.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Able to tell an Enterprise episode from what's happening and
who's on screen and what's going on because all four
of those seasons one and two are pretty similar.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
But you know, but there's still a shift sort of
in season two.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
But either way, three is obviously very obvious, not the
other four, and then four is full of, uh, you know,
all the stuff we got in season four. So a
lot of change in Enterprise. I think, for sure, never
really got to establish a baseline. I don't think I
think it was sort of up and down all over
the place, you know, tonally and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
But still there's lots of changes, lots of changes.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I think Enterprise is.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
It's like very much like ts where it's very episodic,
but they but they're through line is and here's an
episode that builds towards the founding of the Federation, and
then we're back to like episode of the week and
it's like, oh, but then we had to go back
to Earth and it's you know, so that's kind of
the the overall arc that we get. And then season
(40:17):
three comes and just you know, smashes that and it's
like war has come to Star Trek again, not just.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Star Trek to Florida and knows what it is.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And then I'm I'm probably exaggerating because I don't have
it in front of me season four, but like season
four feels like it has like three part or two
part one episode three part or two part right for
mini arcs. That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
I forgot about that.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
Well. Yeah, season three a whole season long arc, Season
four little mini mini arcs, and season one and season
two are actually episodic more more more or less episodics, so.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
You kind of have three flavors as far as the
episode construction. Yeah, yeah, that's good point.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I thought it's interesting, does not have a base line, Yeah,
and again it's we will never know, but say Enterprise
got seven seasons, how would we look back on it?
You know, because then we would have if we still
had one, two, three, I think four would see four
four to seven or you know.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
I think it would be four four to seven. I
think you would continue the mini arc, maybe throwing a
Q like not exactly a que, but there's some sort
of some sort of master villain over a season or
two you know, well actually actually future guying. No, no, no,
I take that back, because we do kind of know
where it was going.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Again.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
I was gonna say season five would have been with Strand,
with Stran with the New Enterprise, So at least later
seasons of Enterprise would have been a different, different flavor,
another another new.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I think, yeah, I think that would have really good model.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Right, Yeah, it.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Had been the Wrong Island War, it would have been
a very different show.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
There's like halfway through the intro, it goes into space
Socke and you see them like just bolt on the
lower lower part that it flies out again.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Are you saying are you saying it's like you know
those race cars that go to the pit stops and
then they get yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
It's coming out. It's got like a flame decal on
the side, like, now.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
We can go to war do you see the Vulcan
ship and the Dorian ship go? But I really fast.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Fitted is on the it's like n x.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
O one dot one. It's like why why would like
because it can't be the nx O two because that's.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
The Colombia n x O one final.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Final dot those times actually use this one.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
No, I think.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, I think that would have been season five Onward
would have been And honestly, I'm sad about that because
I think what Jeffer Gums would have brought with Tran
and he would have become the breakout character of He
would have been the doctor for the rest of the
he would have been warf. He would have been the
(43:18):
main lens that we see the show through, I think.
But it wasn't to be.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
So, not that we're short on time, but we're sort
of not long on time to the other So we'll
go a little quick here. So Darren, I know you
haven't watched it all, but what little you have watched
A discovery little change, medium change, lots of change.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yeah, I mean when they jump into the thirty second century,
it's a little bit of a change, but yeah, no, I.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Think Captain changes every year.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah right, I mean, as Daniel was saying, like, oh,
you can't really tell what season you're No, you you
can tell what season you're in with with Voyage or
were the.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Season Discovery and this is not but like even season
one's two halves, like it's playing on part and it's
mirror part and it's you.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Know right, Yeah, no, No, definitely Discovery has a lot
of change. And you know, I don't begret it that.
I don't feel like in Modern Trek you should be oh,
it's trying to find itself and it's just throwing everything
out and changing it. It's like, no, it's it's it's
(44:35):
okay to have a big change and try something different.
I mean if you I don't think you could. I
mean you can have your opinion, but I don't think
it's fair to judge Discovery as changing too much. But
then looking at something like Picard and being like, oh
it changed just enough, It's like no, Picard's completely changed
(44:56):
as well, every single like so much so it's almost
three different shows. But you know that's getting ahead. But yeah, no, Discovery,
I mean, yeah, it it changes a lot, probably more
so than any other show that has at least a
five season run.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
You modified it, I'll do Picard real quickly, You'll be
doing lower decks, Daniel so Picard. Yeah, as we've said,
and this is my personal opinion, totally different show every season,
for better, for worse, depending upon your taste, your mileagemcvary.
But like first season is it's a story, and then
the second season is time travel, nothing to do with
(45:39):
Star Trek. Really, I mean, I don't sounds like I'm critiquing.
I don't mean, I mean, there's nothing to do with
the Star Trek universe. It's just the characters. But they're
not doing Star Trek stuff. They're doing action stuff. And
then season three is, well, I don't think it's enough
to say a fan service because I I fight back
about that because I'm like, you take away the enterprise
(46:01):
Dave just in like thirty minutes of the whole third season,
and then yes, you get the characters back, but like,
I mean, it's all about Jack. That's not that's not
you know, fan service. So I mean, like to me,
it's just it's a it's a whole different story than
season one anyway, but to me, very very different show.
Depending on which season, I can easily tell what season
(46:23):
of Picard I'm in it. And if you showed me
an episode, turn off the sound, I can watch I'll take.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
You, which is the one with Picard and he's wearing
an eyepatch and he's little dance.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
One to me, I am.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Okay, all right, So that was the quickie, Daniel, lordeck.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
Lowd X is a cartoon. It doesn't change at all.
It's all the same. But what what No, it's different,
we get different pips. But it was season three three,
I think, yeah, you know, it's it's uh, there's definitely
lots of changes, for sure. The first two seasons follow
little to me, but I think definitely passed season two.
(47:05):
They've definitely sort of been charting their own course into
their own direction.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
So I mean I think back to, yeah, the first
two seasons, Like you said, Daniel, I remember us critiquing
it of like, oh, look an episode where it's Boimler
and Mariner go off and do a and tend and
you know, Rutherford do be like the same pairings all
(47:29):
the time, and I remember us critiquing it for that
and being like, shake it up. And then they finally did.
But yeah, I would say that is kind of a change.
To me, is that once they really start to shake
up the pairings, because it does stay like that a
b pairing for a long time. In the beginning, we.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Got to Lenn, Yeah that's true.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
That's true, and Benji, the fifth Power Ranger showed up,
and now we can form the Mega.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Len use her flute yet for she told me.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Is the the White Ranger Dragons Ordans the fifth one out?
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yeah? No, yeah, I think not a radical change, but
I think it's it's not even more settling because I
think it's the way they tell the stories. It's me
it's an orrible thing which fell merit agree or disagree
with where they got more comfortable with telling like legitimate
stories as far as just a comedy, nothing wrong with
the comedy, but this is like, we're going to make
(48:26):
you feel like there's actual stakes here and there's drama
and there's and so not a radical change. You could
say it's just settling in, but I think you can
kind of tell them.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
I think lower decks also, and I'll give it props
for this. I think it is one of the most
balanced shows as far as Yeah, obviously is it's like
the slight difference of we're telling us a ten episode story,
but the chunks of it are going to feel episodic
(48:57):
enough that you're going to have a favorite. So I
feel often other television or even Star Trek won't hit
that right balance where it will either feel very you know, linear,
and you're like, oh, well, yeah this is cool, but
I'm not going to ever watch episode two because nothing
really stands out in episode two, you know, but with
(49:18):
lower decks, I think it does nail that balance where yeah,
episode two is part of the bigger story, but it's
also stands on its own, and you could watch just
that and not feel like you're missing out on the
overall plot.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
That's my view, during which pure quick thought strange. I know,
you talk a little bit strange. New Worlds changed, little change,
medium changed.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
I mean, we only got twenty episodes, guys, we don't
have a lot to go on.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
But no, it's.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
No I still will say it changes. I think a
lot of people will say between season one and two,
it it's taking a little more risks, it's becoming a
little more of its own show. You know, you're adding,
you're starting to add more and more ts characters, and
you're going to get even more of that in season three.
(50:08):
So yeah, this is like the hardest one to judge,
I feel, maybe because it is still in production and
it's like so short, you know, it's like saying, let's judge,
it's like judging the animated series. Yeah, it's just like
there's not enough meat to form an opinion. So I'm
(50:28):
going to defer that for another couple of years and
then we'll get back to that.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
I have no problem if not hasn't changed at all.
What about you, Dany?
Speaker 3 (50:35):
Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I'm trying to think of
any changes between season one and two, and the only
thing I can think of as the engineer that died
and now we have and now of course we've seen
in season three that Scotty comes in, so I, you know,
to me, it feels a very consistent show. The tone,
like like it hit that tone early and sort of
(50:57):
holding on to it with all of its fingers. So
it feels very to me. It doesn't feel like it's
changed a ton. But again, like like Darren says, the
sample size is very small, like this is literally less
than one season of you know, Tengiorducers nine or something
like that. That's what we've got to deal with here,
So it's it's really sort of tough to say.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
I mean I would close up and counter with Prodigy,
which is only had two seasons, but that's forty episodes.
So I feel like I'm pretty in my opinion. It
hasn't changed a lot. But again, we were discussing this earlier.
The tone has somewhat changed in that I feel like
(51:35):
the first season is a kids show hand quotes. Second season,
I mean like they're starting to hit that upper boundary
of a kid show. I mean, that's not a complaint
why fewer plus, but there's some episodes like if I
and again I don't know, like I was ten and
nine when I watched TENJ So you know, I'm not
thinking it's going to scar the kids for life, but
I'm just saying, like, where I a sensitive parent of
(51:57):
like a I don't know seven old. I mean, some
of those episode will be like, hmmm, we'll think of
it about this one.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
The kids who watched season one when it first came
out are now twenty seven years old, so I don't
know if that makes you feel old, but that's just
how long that show has been in production.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
So yeah, and that's how to complaint. I'm just saying
it's it's a slight change that I've seen Prodigy. I
don't know, Daniel, or.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
I mean, it's so long. It's funny that, like, I know,
it doesn't really matter, but like technically Prodigy came out
before Strange Worlds, like a year before, but it feels
like Stranger Worlds has been around longer because it's been
more consistent. Cool.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
All right, Well we'll close it there and shure there's
more to say. And this is all to say, nothing
wrong with consistency. I don't want anyone to take that away, like, oh,
if you don't change your sucking, it's nothing wrong with it.
You know, it's like your favorite food if you you
know so it is is every time you pick it up.
Nothing wrong with that. But you know, certain shows have
take in other directions than others. All right, Daniel, If
folks want to talk to you about which way they
(52:59):
can change their form the best, where can they find you?
Speaker 3 (53:02):
Well, there is only one good way to change the uniform,
and that is not to change it at all.
Speaker 4 (53:07):
They can find me at one of Dan that's the
number won not.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
And Darren, if folks want to talk to you about
how lower Decks will change its last title sequence, where
can they find Oh.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
There you go. Uh, we're going to add vgre is
going to show up the cloud, the vesionic cloud is
going to develop that entire scene.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
But they can find me at doctor sci Fi dot
com d R s c I F I.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
And if folks want to talk to me about how
we can change our podcast co host, they can find
me on Instagram at C A P T. Sorry, guys,
you didn't want you. You wanted some uh he wanted
lots of change.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
That sounded like, so you came up with this topic.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
I heard the way you were scoring. We'll do some
Battlestar galactic things, you know, don't know which one you're
gonna die. So but I have it's three in the
background on my white board over here. So we'll see
what happens until next week. So, yes, until next week.
I'm Philip Gilphis, I'm.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
Daniel Prue, and I'm Darren Moser.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Stranded here on City Alpha three
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