Ep. 478: Nathaniel Blackburn

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
What's up, everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
This is Scott Jeger here with another edition of Challenge Mania.
This episode brought to you by our road Rules thirtieth
anniversary show, Challenge Mania Live, coming to you from the
Brea Improv right outside Los Angeles, California, Sunday, July twenty seventh.
We're bringing out I mean, at least ten road rulers
are going to be in the house, maybe even twenty
or thirty. Some of the people who make the show
want to hear some names. How about the me and

(00:37):
Girls Veronica, Rachel, Tina. We got Mark Long, Darrell Shane
in the house, Susie Meister, Katie Cooley and more. Keith
is going to be in the house. I believe the
gaul of Queen Sarah Grayson.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Is rolling on through.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Go to Challenge Mania dot Live today and get your
tickets because it's the only thirtieth anniversary celebration of that
great show that took place in an RV starting.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
All the way back in nineteen ninety five. All right, you.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Didn't come from me, you came for d Speaking of
OG's and the many ogs will have in the house
at Brea.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Man, did we dig up another one? You know?

Speaker 2 (01:06):
This man from real world Seattle. You know from I
believe three seasons of The Challenge two Finals, dating all
the way back to his last season The Gauntlet. He
is one of the originators of this whole thing that
we talk about here weekly at Challenge Mania. Derek and
I are very excited to be joined by mister Nathaniel Blackburn.
How are you, brother, man?

Speaker 3 (01:26):
What a what a kind intro man. I am far
from anything other than a lucky guy back in the
day that got asked to.

Speaker 4 (01:35):
Be on a show where they record you not knowing
what the outcome would be, and what you guys have
turned it into is just incredible to see from afar.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
So it's an honor to be here.

Speaker 5 (01:44):
Yeah no, and I'm going to even double up on that,
like you were one of the guys.

Speaker 6 (01:48):
Like for everyone that's listening.

Speaker 5 (01:49):
Right now, we're taking you back to nineteen ninety eight.
Where where Nate do you go? By Nathan Nathaniel? We
knew you as Nate back in ninety eight.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah, man, excuse me, I uh man, my real name
is Nathaniel.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
And I'm sure we'll get into it in the pond.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Maybe not, I don't know, But back then I went
by Nate, you know, and I really went by Nathan
in a lot of ways. And in my journey of
this this thing called life, realize some strongholds around my
my insecurity as a young man that uh today, you know,
I prefer to go by Nathaniel because it's the name

(02:28):
that my mom gave me and and uh and I'm
proud to be called that today versus the scared kid
I was way back when when when we were doing
all this fun stuff for him TV.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well, first of all, my middle name is Nathan, so
I take personal offense to you abandoning the.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Nathan and adding that a fantom. I'm kidding.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Uh, It's funny people people actually know my middle name
only because I have an email address where because like
you know.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
All the other ones were taking my email addresses. Basically
Scott Nathan Jaeger at Gmail. Go ahead email me if
you want whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
But it's funny is that, like most people they know
people for thirty years, they don't know their last name.
But I had people who like thought I wanted to
be called Scott Nathan Jeger because I have it in
my email.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
And no, it's just because I wanted people to be
able to email me.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
But it's funny you say that because Derek, you just
you know, had a son last year, Maverick. We have
three kids. Our second daughter Bronwyn. It's interesting her full
name is Bronwyn, but we mainly call her Winnie now.
And I wonder like, at what age will she maybe
feel like she's grown out of Winny wants to go
to bronwin, you know, things like that. And it's interesting

(03:29):
that I feel like in your youth you felt more
like a Nate, you know, then maybe you felt more
like a Nathan, and now in adulthood, with that great
booming voice you have, you are Nathaniel.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
So I love that.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah, thanks man.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
It's a much longer story, probably for a different podcast
on what that does for me when somebody asks me
that today, it's a real spiritual reminder, man, for me
of this guy that used to exist and really broke in,
scared and and all that stuff, and still today is

(04:03):
still broken and scared, but with a with a different
solution to the problems that uh that.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
That life brings my way.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
And so a lot of times when people ask me
that question, and let me tell you all day every day,
when somebody meets.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
Me there, I can I call you Nate? Can I
call you Nathan?

Speaker 4 (04:17):
You know? And so it's been this really cool thing
between me and God that I quietly get reminded of
what has transpired over the last twenty years of my life.
And so a lot of times I just quietly smile
inside at the gift that that it is. But in
a situation like this, I also like want to be

(04:39):
bold and honest, not.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
For anything other than telling the truth right of of
like of my life today.

Speaker 4 (04:46):
And and so like I even know myself coming into
these situations like I have this when I when I
think about doing these interviews, it like a lot of
times I say no, because it's.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
This brings up this time of my life that I'm
so grateful for.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
And I have got story upon story of glory and
fun and craziness and chaos, and unfortunately for me, those
led to a lot of other stories that were not.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
Good stories, you know.

Speaker 4 (05:19):
And so but I just wanted to come into this
and kind of lay ego aside and try to be
present and like listen and just cheer you guys on
for what you're doing and be grateful for some of
the stuff that happened back then, but also not be
scared to talk about today, which is the most important part.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
So thank you guys again.

Speaker 5 (05:40):
Yeah no, I love it, man. This is the exact
reason why I love and I hope you don't take
any offense to this digging up the ghosts from yesteryear,
you know, because like you guys, really, I mean, I
started doing this in two thousand and four. I started
World Rules on two thousand and four, and I know

(06:00):
your distaste for road Rules since you lost to them.
I believe two years in a row. There are two
seasons there.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
No, hey, listen, hold on a second. Now, you can't
throw that out me without any response. First of all,
and I don't care, I know, you know, coral, Like
I just want to be straight up like we lost
that because she couldn't run up a mountain.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
There was no spider bite, Okay, Like we all know that.

Speaker 4 (06:25):
THEO gives me crap still to this day of that
come from behind victory on the galllet does.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
Yeah, very sore spot sore spot yeah.

Speaker 5 (06:35):
No, And again you bring up more ghosts from the
from the challenge pass into people that are listening.

Speaker 6 (06:42):
Now we are going back.

Speaker 5 (06:44):
To nineteen ninety nine, the second season of the Challenge,
which we all knew a long time ago as the Real.

Speaker 6 (06:52):
World road Rules Challenge.

Speaker 5 (06:53):
At some point for those of you that don't know,
the Real World road Rules got cut off and they
just started calling the challenge the Challenge. But this guy
he came in there in the second. First season was
called road Rules All Stars. Second season was called Uh,
I think it was just real World versus road Rules.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, it says real World road Rules is what it's
listed on the Challenge wiki as Yeah.

Speaker 6 (07:20):
And and then and then did you only do the
two seasons?

Speaker 4 (07:24):
Yeah? So I did that, and then I did the
first The next challenge was the first Gauntlet.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yes, he was the next one.

Speaker 4 (07:30):
And I did that, and uh actually showed up to that.
How how how honest can we be on this thing?
Is this a PG thing or no?

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Well really it's really it's rated. Let's be honest. Our
borders on the n C seventeen at time.

Speaker 6 (07:47):
Uh, and what I would call it whatever rated W and.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
We we prefer you be as honest as you as
you want and would love to be, you know, so obviously, yeah, please, So.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
I showed up to the Gauntlet after having stayed up
for two days doing cocaine.

Speaker 6 (08:03):
Oh we're going on that route?

Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, well, I just say so. Yeah, I think they
knew that, like right when I showed up, you know.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
And I'd kind of garnered a reputation within the Uni
Murray world at that point because I hosted a bunch.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Of reunion shows from New.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Orleans and I was working at MTVS A VJ. I
had all kinds of stuff in the works with a pilot.
But slowly but surely, drugs and alcohol started to really
kick my butt.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
And I remember showing up to the to.

Speaker 4 (08:32):
The Gauntlet no sleep, had a fever, a cold sore
from from you.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
Know, the way I was living at that time.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
And uh and I remember after that season, I tried
to get sober. It would take me another decade before
I got sober, and and I kept trying to call
back to go again because I needed the money.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
I wanted to go again.

Speaker 4 (08:50):
And by the way, showing up as unhealthy as I did,
I still made it to the finals. So just imagine
if I showed up today healthy, right. I say all
that to say all ego side. Three and a half
years ago, when the All Stars came back up.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
I actually got calls for that and I was all in.

Speaker 4 (09:10):
Mark called me and a couple other people, and unfortunately
for me, I think it was the second season of
All Stars that I got asked to go on. The
shoot was during the window of my twins' birth, and
so there was a moment. There was a real small

(09:31):
moment where my wife and I considered, and it was
very small. You know, it's our first kids. We've never
had kids. I've got married later in life, blessing across
the board, and it was a brief moment of consideration,
only to this be pushed away by.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
There's no way I'm missing the birth of my kids.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Since then, you know, I kind of fell off the radar,
I think, But yes, the Gauntlet was my last challenge
due to my lifestyle.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
Choices at that time.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Well then let me tell you this is the radar.
You're back on the radar because rumors are, rumors are,
calls have started circulating for what will be the sixth
season of The Challenge All Stars. And you made the
right decision, my friend, because like, first of all, you're
only gonna have the birth of your twins once. That's
literally gonna happen once, and there are literally six seasons
of All Stars going on, forty one seasons of the challenge.

(10:24):
That is something that can keep rearing its ugly head,
depending on how ugly you think that head is.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
But so you made the right call there. I don't
know if you know this.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
On that same season of All Stars, season two, one
of the cast members went and didn't even realize she
was pregnant, found out she was pregnant on the show
and had to leave during the show.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
So that's still happening, believe in her now.

Speaker 6 (10:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (10:58):
So no, So just going back for me when I
talk about you know, nineteen ninety eight, Seattle, Real World,
Seattle nineteen ninety nine, the second ever Real World road
Rules Challenge or the second ever challenge. I'm in high school.
I'm like Primetime years. This is when MTV was downright

(11:21):
in its prime. This is when we were just starting
to see Eric Nice hosting The Grind and all that stuff,
and you guys were like, you know, like like bigger
than the WWE superstars in some of our eyes.

Speaker 6 (11:34):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (11:36):
You guys were like what American gladiators were back then,
except like we could like like I didn't think that
there was a way to get on one of these
shows until I saw I was watching.

Speaker 6 (11:51):
I don't know what I was watching, but.

Speaker 5 (11:53):
I just remember vividly Mike the Miz versus Abram and
a jousting match above a pool, right. I don't know
if you were on that season, was that it? And
that's that's when I was like, oh man, this is
so cool. And I remember you being like one of
those guys that was like athletically sound enough cool and like,

(12:15):
you know, like like you made it seem like, you know,
like you're someone I could root for, you know. And
then a few years later, well two thousand and four
is when I started doing road Rules. You know, you
were the face of one of the faces of this thing.
I'm just to remind people and to remind you some
of these people in two thousand and four, The Gauntlet,

(12:37):
two thousand and three, two thousand and four on MTV
Get Home from Scott High School Men TV was a thing.
TRL was a thing, right, you guys were a thing.
Nates Nates at the time, Nathaniels at this time Real
World team was Alton Coral, Mike the Maze, Norman uh

(13:00):
THEO Gandhy. I think, yeah, Gantt the first THEO. Later
on we had many other theos Erarolin, Traschelle, Elka, Montana,
David Broome who is now currently Tokyo. I mean these
were like household names for many many years.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (13:21):
Man, it was you know, in my life today when
this comes up and I'm talking to younger guys that
I'm mentoring or whatever, I have to kind of explain
to go listen, MTV was YouTube of today.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Like you, we had no idea. I had no idea
what was going to come out of that.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
But I remember after the first episode of our Real
World season in Seattle aired and I was on vacation
in Bermuda with my girlfriend at the time from the
show who would later you know, kind of be a
big part of that show. And I remember that it
was the night at the day after it aired, and
we were on the ba at the resort and I
was mobbed in Bermuda, you know, and it's like, what

(14:05):
did we really get ourselves into?

Speaker 3 (14:06):
And I say that it was just like we were.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
That show and all the way in the early seasons
of the Challenge, it was like the number one show
on cable TV like around the World.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
You know, it was nuts.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
It aired. I think Our Real World aired in ninety
six countries or something crazy like that, so my could
fact check that.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
But I just I had no idea what would happened.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
Like being on TRL with Carson and hanging out with
the Backstreet Boys and then SYNC and Mark Wahlberg.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
And all that stuff was just like it was nuts.
It was so fun.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
And then to do the challenge, you know, that first
challenge that we did with the All Stars was the
best because I had just it was the summer of
me coming off of filming Seattle. We used to film
in the Real World. It was six months, you know,
like we were there from January till darn near early May.

(14:59):
I remember being home and I was on that trip
in Bermuda after the first episode aired, and I get
a call from Matt Keenitz, who Matt Konitz was the
director of the Real World and all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
Back then.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
He's gone on to do Wipeout like all these other
crazy shows he's sooner would to do.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
But he's like, hey, what are you doing this summer?

Speaker 4 (15:17):
And my girlfriend at the time didn't even know that
I was going to cheat on her, you know, on
the upcoming episodes and all that, and I was like, hey, honey,
I think I'm gonna hit the road this summer for
some all star thing and she's like, how dare you?
You know? Anyway, that didn't work out, obviously, but that
trip was insane because I was with all the people
I looked up to.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
So I was the Newbiat in season seven.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
But I had Mark Long who was like, you know,
I remember watching his first season.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
I'm like this guy, you know, and Kaylee.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
From Road Rules, who I ended up dating for a
little bit, and Neil from London who had his tongue
bitten off. Like I mean, this was like it was
an epic Montana and Jason from Boston and we got
to drive around the West Coast man in this Winnebago.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Or tour tour bus, and if you lost, you.

Speaker 4 (16:07):
Had to drive in this nineteen seventy five win a
Bago that they called the Shitty Winny, and I mean
it was terrible, you know, it broke down multiple times.
But if you won, because we would travel from destination
to destination, and at each destination there was a big
contest of some kind and if you want you get
to ride in the tour bus.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
But dude, we did.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
Nutty things like Hugh Hefner had us at his house
as his guests.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
He was a huge fan of the real World.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
We show up to the Playboy mansion and he gives
us our own silk pajamas with our names on him,
you know, and like we're hanging out with him and
some of his employees at the in the grotto, you know,
Like I just remember Mark and I just being like,
what's happening?

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Where are we? This is insane?

Speaker 4 (16:56):
So like that just anyway, when you say those names,
it just brings me back to a time that most
people can't even connect with because the late nineties and
pop culture was was.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
It was awesome.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Well, it's interesting because we talk about this all the
time internally, and then occasionally when we get to speak
to someone like yourself, it's such a great snapshot.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
You seem to remember those times so well.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
It's perfect because you're right, somebody who discovered this show,
even in the last fifteen years, like, let's be honest,
has no idea that in nineteen ninety eight, I say this,
I always say that for a period of the nineties,
I'd say Real World seasons maybe one through at least ten,
but maybe even fifteen. The cast of the Real World
in a given year, we're seven of the most famous people,

(17:42):
certainly in the United States, as you said, if not
the world in that think of it as being on
one of the most popular sitcoms. Think of how famous
the Friends cast is, the Seinfeld cast is, even the
cast of some failed shows that only lasted three or
four seasons back then Boy Meets World, Family Matters, whatever
it is, those people are are still famous forty years
later because we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have Netflix,

(18:04):
we only we didn't even have thirty nine channels. I
remember MTV was like channel thirty eight and then you
had like four more and that was it. And so
you know, the level of fame, as you said, but
the level of crossover, the fact that, like now the
idea of no offense, but the idea of Hugh Hefner
is obviously long gone. But the idea of a Michael Rubin,
if you will, who's sort of like the Hugh Hefner

(18:24):
of today, who has fanatics fast and all this stuff,
Like the idea that he would care very deeply about
someone on any MTV show, let alone, the challenge just
doesn't really make sense because celebrity has bulked up. There's
just so many famous people. It doesn't really make any sense.
But Real World Seattle for a lot of us, I
think myself included, it was either that or Boston was
probably like the first Real World season that I really

(18:45):
remember watching start to finish. Understanding because in nineteen ninety eight,
I believe I'm around in eighth grade something like that.
Really understanding the through line narratives, the storyline with David
having met the woman in casting and now he's dating her,
which is breaking the fourth wall somehow that's not allowed.
You guys knew each other for being in the military,
like you know and me just as in middle schooler
kind of understanding. Okay, I guess this is what it's

(19:07):
like to be a young adult and all of that stuff.
So we would love to go back and get your
initial casting story because that's what we love to get
from people today. It's as easy as oh, yeah, I
opened my Instagram and someone DMed me and said, do
you want to be on the Challenge. I believe that's
probably what happened to Ben, who's going to be debuting
on season forty one.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
But for you, Nate or Nathaniel, where were you at
in life?

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Like you mentioned looking up to some of these people,
what made you audition?

Speaker 1 (19:31):
How did they find you? What was that process?

Speaker 7 (19:32):
Like?

Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah, man, hey, thanks for the question. You know, I
can remember like it was yesterday. I was a junior in.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
College and a girl broke my heart.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
And David, of all people who had become a buddy
at VAMI, was like, hey, dude, I got this incredible
opportunity to go overseas for this program, and I know
I could get you in. Do you want to do it?
I'd never been on an airplane and my heart was broken.
I was like, you know, screw it, and I, you know,
applied for this thing, and David put a word out.

(20:07):
Even David's David. He's kind of this wizard of making
things happen. And I ended up getting on this thing.
And so we fly our junior year to check the
Czech Republic to Prague to live there for six months.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
I didn't know what, you know.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
I was a fish out of water, small town Virginia boy.
Long story short.

Speaker 6 (20:24):
We're in Prague and David burns you and David Barns.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
David Burns, Yeah, yeah, David.

Speaker 6 (20:30):
Barns are in Prague.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Yes, we went to college together.

Speaker 4 (20:33):
So this is a year before and he and I
had connected and we were buds, and so he's want
David Burns, you know, encourages me to go to Europe
and study for a semester and getting this program.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
We have.

Speaker 4 (20:46):
Epic tales in Europe together, and one of them was
we walked into Old Town Square in Prague in nineteen
ninety seven, which was like eight years out of the communism,
so it was this untouched like epic place at the time,
and there was this big production going on in Old
Town Square and we're like what is happening. This guy
comes up with walkie talkie and he's like, hey, you

(21:07):
guys can't come through here, and we're like, oh, you
speak English.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
He's like, yeah, sir, no one.

Speaker 4 (21:11):
Spoke English and prog back then if you were over
the age of twenty. And so we connected with him
and ended up being a PA for a motion movie
for a big blockbuster film being filmed there called Le
Mazerrah with Liam Neeson and clar Danes and so we
were like just all struck at this and we're like, hey,
can we hang out? And it was like, yeah, come on.
So they take us into video Village, which I didn't

(21:32):
know if that's what it was called, and we watched
the final scene of the night with Clar Danes and.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
Back then, if you were my you know, a twenty year.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
Old man, you love some Clar Danes, right, and so
we were really excited to be there. And long story short,
she does the scene they call cut and I'm like,
that's acting. I'm like, I got to do that, you know.
And we end up having dinner that night with the
team with Liam, with Clar Danes and all those people,
because English speaking people were rare there, so we kind
of they let us in their little world. And I

(22:01):
remember that night's in at that table going I got
to get to La.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
How I'm gonna get to La? But I gotta get
to La.

Speaker 4 (22:17):
Fast forward, get back to VMI senior year. Come into
my room in barracks after one of my classes, and
there was a flyer and so, guys, let me explaining
to you.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
A flyer is a piece of paper.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
That has an announcement on it that people would hand
out versus text messaging or all this kind of stuff,
and so a flyer was the way that you understood
what was happening or going to happen. As an invitation
and excuse me, and it said MTV's a Real World
will be live and in person in Richmond, Virginia taking
auditions for Open Call.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
And I remember in that moment for the first.

Speaker 4 (22:51):
Time in my life, thinking about the brokenness of my
childhood that I've never talked to anyone about, and going
I could use that maybe and get on the show
because they cast very.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
Crazy sport.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's damn light him.

Speaker 6 (23:08):
Yeah, wait, wait, let him. Let let's get his take first,
and then you can sure yours.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
Sure, sure.

Speaker 4 (23:13):
So you know I know this all now as an
adult years later, after going backwards into my story and
working through trauma and.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
All this stuff.

Speaker 4 (23:20):
Man, I was molested as a kid, My mom left
when I was seven, my dad died when I was fifteen, right,
all these things, and now somehow have survived all that
at that age at twenty twenty one because of self sufficiency,
which would serve me really.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Well for a long time.

Speaker 4 (23:34):
I say all that to say it was the first
time I can remember trying to manipulate to get acceptance.
And so I show up to this casting and I just.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Turn it on.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
It's all truthful, but I really I turn it on
and I get in front of Kira, who David ends
up dating.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
At the se goes to the same audition.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
We don't even know that each of us are going
to the audition because our whole school got that flyer
Vami and so so I ended up talking to this
girl named Kira, And I remember Billy Rainey was there,
another director, and he they asked me questions and I
was just honest, man.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
I was over the top honest.

Speaker 4 (24:09):
And and I would later find out that Kirah looked
at my application more intimately because she lived on Blackburn
Avenue in Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
My last name is.

Speaker 4 (24:21):
Blackburn, right, So there's all these little things she would
send me on to the next, you know, next interview.
We went through six months of I think it was
six months, four to six months of interviews like and
back then, you know, you would fly out to LA
to be interviewed in person, or before you could even
get to that, they would ask you to videotape the

(24:41):
phone call interview that you would have on speakerphone and
then send them the VHS tape, you know, and somewhere
around the middle of the audition process, they asked me, Hey,
do you know David Burns?

Speaker 3 (24:51):
And I'm like, oh, my gosh, how do you guys
know David Burns?

Speaker 4 (24:54):
We were friends, but but we're in the middle of
school and it just didn't come up, you know, And
they were like, hey, he's on the show.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Long story short, right, they cast us on there. I
will tell you this. What I know now is that
they were.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
Ingenious in how they went through the process because we
I think spoke to therapists. I'm pretty sure there was
a lot of behind the scenes as they whittled down
seventy thousand people or whatever it is. Back then, you know,
they're looking at like the chessboard, like, okay, Man, Nathaniels
got this undealt with trauma, right, Okay, Then David two

(25:27):
has this trauma. Their buddies, Oh, Steven, man, he's gay.
He doesn't know he's gay. Oh man, he's confused and
been adopted into this Jewish family, but he thinks he's
this and that, like ooh, he's going to be super insecure.
The minute they put him together with two the white guys,
who are like bros.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
And you know, like you just see it today.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
You know, people always ask, man, did they make stuff
up in manufacture and they go, no, they didn't have
to because they were so meticulous at choosing the time
bombs right that would eventually be there. I mean, that's
why it was so popular because it was so raw
and so real and people can relate to it.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
You see, years later it.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
Totally changed and it was about shock and it was
about this and it was about that. And so to
be a part of that, like early evolution of that show,
I just I really meant hold that deer near to
my heart because it was something that was so unique
that is birthed the chaos of what you see today
as it relates to all reality TV.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
So it's just really neat to be a small part
of that.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
The producer we had on said that, Yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, and it's it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
The producer we had on said the three criteria for
casting the Real Worlds or road Rules was they looked
for attractive, damaged extroverts. So clearly you fit the bill
with all three of those things. And I do agree
with you that. As years went by, I think they
maybe skewed more of like, well, let's make sure attractive

(26:59):
is number one, or or let's make sure that you
know whatever it is, or like you said, the conflict
ended up being a little bit more manufactured. I think
also what happened was as years of the seasons went on, Like,
I remember your season so vividly, we're obviously going to
talk about some of the major moments from that season.
I think a lot of people do dumb it down
to the big slap scene with Steven. But other than that,

(27:20):
what I remember is that it all felt organic and
real and whatnot. But as more and more seasons air,
I think people like yourself who then think, oh, I
could be on that show, they start to kind of
see like, oh, is that what people do on the show?

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Is that the kind of person I would be? Things
like that some of the.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
Conflict I do think they probably even got more gratuitous
of let's take this person from this part of the
country who's never been with this person and see, if
you know, fireworks ensue.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
But it's interesting that you've already done the sort of
social math of it all.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
And I really thought it was interesting hearing what you
said about the trauma and the stuff you went through
in your youth that i'd imagine, I don't want to
speak for you, it seemed like you were implying you
used to kind of try to compartmentalize it and almost
not use it or not let it kind of filter
through your day to day. But in this one instance,
you thought, the more extroverted I am about it, the

(28:12):
better shot I have to get on this show. I
thought that's very intuitive as well, kind of like something
that i'd imagine you've been trying.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
To bury for years. You go, hey, for.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Six hours, if I can talk to these strangers about it,
that's my ticket to MTV to Los Angeles, to Clared Danes, etc.

Speaker 5 (28:27):
You know, so to kind of come even more full circle.
So the last time I kind of talked about the
casting process was with the last time I talked about
the casting process, how like intimate we get with these
like strangers, because because Nathaniel's six month casting process.

Speaker 6 (28:50):
I kind of went through the same thing.

Speaker 5 (28:52):
I'm literally spilling my guts to this random person that
has a camcorder on me, like this little device staring
at me there behind it, and I'm just like, you know,
in you know, borderline and tears, like reliving all of
these moments that I had gone through in my childhood

(29:14):
on to my to my uh you know, to my
teenage years, to you know now now in college. Uh,
I'm reliving all of this. I've never said these things before.
And it's not Scott when you say, oh that one
time you you were an extrovert. No, this dude went
through six months of six different types of casting revealings

(29:38):
to the to these people to Beuni Murray productions.

Speaker 6 (29:41):
God bless them and thank you.

Speaker 5 (29:42):
But uh, my point is, the last time we talked
about this was I was with Dunbar, another uh person
on on the challenge that that uh you know, had
had been on for a while and came back. And
the last time I had seen him was in the
Czech Republic on the bridge and in the middle of

(30:05):
the night and just us enjoying our time there, right,
which is just pretty ironic. Same thing with Dave Burns, Like,
I've had some, you know, some moments with Dave. I've
had some good moments today, I had some not great
moments with Dave. His set also since then disappeared. Love
to get a hold of him at some point if
he'd be opened to the to the conversation, I feel

(30:26):
like he would. But yeah, he's just He's just. But
but going back to this season of Real World Seattle
and this ticking time bomb you were explaining and how
they meticulously put all this together reminds me of of
the Kira Bomb. Right, Like, Kira the producer that hooked

(30:46):
up with Dave Burns on the show is one of
those moments that's just unforgettable. I mean, it's literally a
time bomb from like my high school years to where
like one thing I didn't know is that you guys
were friends, that you guys went to college together, which
is something they had also never done on the World
when I think I read somewhere this was kind of

(31:07):
like a spin and for the first time they called it.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Seven strangers or seven people seven people.

Speaker 5 (31:17):
And not seven strangers picked to live in the house
because of you two.

Speaker 6 (31:23):
So the cure bomb.

Speaker 5 (31:25):
Can we get into the Kira Bomb, because because now
now since we know that like she was obviously infatuated
with David to like ruin her her job or kind
of like, I mean, this is this I'm sure that
being a producer on the show is and hooking up
with the cast member. She knows that's a no no.

(31:45):
She fucking crosses the the fourth wall anyway on camera
or whatever it is, or kind of on camera, not
on camera, gets caught on camera. But she's also catches
a liking to you and sort of casting cast both
the you together, like there's gotta be a lot of
love there beforehand.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
Oh Man, thinking back to that time, David was so
good at having things close to the vest and so
it was a bomb for me equally to you guys,
and also like frustrated, like how could you not like

(32:28):
let me know this was happening, and he it had
started happening through the casting process, So when he went
out to La, you know, probably three or four interviewed
into it. That's when the physical part of it happened, right,
I would find out later.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
But I remember like.

Speaker 4 (32:46):
That was a big deal because the fourth wall was
this thing back then that was being developed, right because Reality.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
TV was still so new, and.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
You know, our season, I would later learn, helped Reality
TV producers put some.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
Contracts together for the first time.

Speaker 4 (33:04):
As it relates to physical contact, as it relates to
drug use, as it relates.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
To all these different things.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
We were kind of like this hot button season that
that did a lot of that stuff. But Kira had
a really hard decision in front of her, you know.
I mean she was even given, i think, the opportunity
to end it and stay with the company, but she
chose because she thought she was in love with David,
who David had a really magical way of making every

(33:33):
woman that was in his life feel like they were
in love, you know, the two different colored.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
Eyes, the Boston accident from Southee.

Speaker 4 (33:40):
He was so charismatic and a lot of that was genuine,
but it was also you know, something that could really
pull somebody in, and he did that with her, and
when she showed up to visit, you know, that was
her kind of declaring to the industry. You know, like, hey,
I'm not probably not going to work in the industry
again because I am a casting director who is literally
breaking through that wall.

Speaker 8 (34:00):
But it's also the producers were probably like, this is gold,
please break through the wall, you know, like they want
that because it was you know, perfect for the show
and the chaos and the drama, you know, and it
was just it was one of the one of the
big moments.

Speaker 4 (34:19):
But we had so many big moments on that season
that that it kind of got lost in the shuffle
and overshadowed by Steven and his slap and Irene and
the lyme disease and my girlfriend and I like it
just was nuts. But yeah, Kira, man, I hope she's
doing okay.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
I'm sure she did well, do you know?

Speaker 2 (34:47):
So it's funny like Derek talked about her throwing her
career away.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
I would be fascinated to.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Know, because obviously, look, the world in general has evolved,
you know, several different times as far as like you know,
workplace relationships and this and that and me too and
whatever and YadA YadA. But like, I'd love to know
because in a weird way, there's an alternate universe where
she just gets swiftly fired off camera, doesn't get to
participate in.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
The show, loses her job, never works again.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Like that, to me, is truly throwing her career away,
getting to do the thing where in essence she's on
on live TV. This kind of like you know romance
that you know, breaks the fourth wall literally and figuratively.
I'm not saying she immediately came home to a stack
of job offers, but she also got to advertise herself
as someone who like did what she wanted to for
love whatever, and put herself out there as Hey, I'm

(35:34):
a real world casting producer that you know by.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Name now in fifty of the fifty states.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
So I would be I'd be fascinated to know what
her next five years of professional work and offers and
stuff were, Like did it really halt her career at all?
Or did someone call her up the next way and
say like, Hey, we're probably not going to give you
the same exact job, but we'd love to make you
a script supervisor on whatever.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
You know, I'm just curious, Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
I mean, I'm bet I bet knowing her, and I'm
talented she was.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
I bet she is some under the radar titan of
production of reality TV. Because the people that back then
in season seven, like, the only people doing reality TV.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Was the Real World. There was still no other reality shows.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
On TV to my knowledge, and those people like I
could tell you the directors of the seasons and what
they do today. Right, Matt Coonans is like some baller
with NBC ABC wipe out like in all these different shows. Right,
Billy Rainey is a huge director Craig Borders like all
these guys. So you're right, man, she might be some

(36:35):
under the radar like Titan of reality TV.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
And you know those people because you worked on the show.
The average person doesn't know any of those people other
than maybe you know they see at the end created
by John Murray and Mary Elis, buttem like those are
the names.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
But like, guess who we all.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Knew was this one casting director because we saw her,
we watched her, we heard the story, etc. And I
just wonder if in nineteen ninety eight, the idea of
two adults falling in love during a casting process, yes,
that's a big no no for this one little social
experiment show. But I don't know that like the head
of of you know, Paramount or whatever would be that

(37:13):
you know, opposed to bringing her in a different role
because of that. Like I doubt too many people watched
that and thought, oh, put this woman in a producer
jail for the rest of her life for what she did.
It wasn't necessarily you know, you know, I don't know,
maybe by today's standards a little different.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Who knows, but back she.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
Think so you know what, Yeah, she probably went on
to do Flavor Love, you know with flavor Flavor, do
you remember that one?

Speaker 5 (37:38):
Like like oh yeah, as a but han as a
cast member or casting producer, producer.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
Right, like probably seeing you don't know that with her.

Speaker 5 (37:48):
That's what I'm saying is like it's like you can
look at it as like the most unprofessional thing you
could possibly do, or the most like TV gold magic
thing you could have like forced your way into.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
And I don't believe see, Like I want to ask
Nathaniel this because I'm this is where I suit with it, right,
because you got to remember that back then, their decision
was we're going to make sure that the narrative is
that this is wrong, but we think this is so
real and right that it is going to be on
the show. To me, that is sort of the utmost
indirect sort of you know what's the word acceptance of

(38:23):
what she's doing is not truly being like awful because
like if someone on or off the show, particularly behind
the scenes, like commits a crime, does something entirely unethical,
like even back then, they're not putting it on MTV
and essentially hanging their hat on the whole scenario.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
I think that they go, oh man, do we prefer
people don't do this.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
But also, seven or eight seasons in, we haven't had
this yet. We kind of need to run with this,
you know. It's like that kind of to me tells me,
look it's bad, or like they thought it was quote
unquote bad, but it was certainly draw the kind of
drama that they sent their teeth into back then.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (39:05):
I think, you guys, I think, I think.

Speaker 5 (39:07):
I think the bottom line here is the reason why
it worked so well is because it was so raw,
so real, so out of the ordinary.

Speaker 6 (39:16):
So unexpected. And this onean was.

Speaker 5 (39:18):
Literally like willing to like lose her day job for
this guy, and she's now accidentally on the show, but
she was flirting with him off the show. I mean,
like they thought they were not on camera and they
caught the right Like it's like it's like to catch
a predator, right like, but that's but.

Speaker 4 (39:37):
Here's how that happens, right, So people don't understand this either.
We figured out how to escape the camera crew, right,
so we thought and we learned that if you turned
your mic off, they couldn't they couldn't find us, and
so I mean we would get reprimanded quite regularly for
doing that, and so they kind of knew at that
point of the season that we were going to do

(39:58):
those things, and they'd started figuring out how to set up.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
People to watch us escape when we would escape. And
so that's people like, how could you get caught? You're
on a reality show.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
And it's like, man, they didn't get half of the
stuff that we did on that show because we figured
out how to get away and and and they then
had to figure out how to actually keep better tabs
on us, you know, like they they showed stuff they
couldn't show drug usage on MTV and they told us that,

(40:28):
Like we were smoking pot with some locals one night,
and the producers pulled aside and say, hey, man, can
you not do that again? And we're like why, and
like we can't show that on TV? And we're like, oh,
you can't show that on TV. And so, you know, great,
so we can do it whatever we want. You're not
going to show us our parents won't see, you know, right,

(40:50):
Like we gave it and I then manipulate the situation
to do that.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
I mean that frustrated them big time. They were just
figuring it out. Man.

Speaker 4 (40:59):
There were so many like unknowns at that time. I mean, look, dude,
Steven slaps a girl.

Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yeah, well that's so think about this, Think about this.
Could you imagine that happening today? Yeah, it would not
happen today. Here's what they did. They they we didn't
even see it happen.

Speaker 4 (41:17):
I was in the house when she totally pushes his
button and says, well, a marriage would never work with
us because you know, you're.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
You're gay or whatever. She said. I ready knew that
would send him over.

Speaker 4 (41:28):
The edge, right to be outed on TV in front
of the camera.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
And so he runs out and he, you know, does
this thing to her in the head. None of us
saw it. He immediately gets taken away.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
They come back in and what happens for us next
is the producers are like, hey, we've taken Steven away.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
They don't even film this. I don't think they're They're like,
he's there's been an incident.

Speaker 4 (41:55):
I think he I think they told us he hit her,
and we're like what.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
You know, and freaking out, and then they show us
the video later.

Speaker 4 (42:02):
They're like, hey, it's up to you guys. We'll send
him to Anger management if he stays. And Irene had left,
but Irene already had kind of like burnt bridges with
us internally before she left, kind of on purpose her
self protective way, but.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
She was also like super taken advantage of.

Speaker 4 (42:21):
If you look at what happened to her by today's
standards man she would own HIMTV through a lawsuit of
how that was handled right the way it was. And
I've been lucky enough to reconnect with her some years
ago because they were.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
Going to redo The Real World.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
Seattle is one of the all Star seasons, and we
were all on board actually except for Janet, and they
ended up picking Los Angeles to be the second season,
but we were in line to do it, and I
had reached out to the cast member saying like, hey,
I think this would be a great opportunity to like
talk about growth of life and adulthood because we had

(42:59):
some pretty traumatic things happened.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
But Janet wouldn't do it. She worked for Jay z
And in New York, and.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
I think she's not allowed to do stuff like that
based on kind of her contractual stuff with some of those.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Well there there you go.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
I'm thinking what what could put because those checks for
that were pretty good because since there was her few
of you or yeah, so since there was so few
of you, good because there's so few of you, and
they wanted one hundred percent attendance.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
You know, they were offering a nice chunk of.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Change for what was only like eight days fourteen days
of work. Yeah, and and and so to turn to
turn that down, I would say, what do you work
for jay Z or something? Yeah, I guess so, I
guess why. That's why she said and to the Nizzo. Uh,
but I think that you know good, hey, you know

(43:51):
what hold on good for her?

Speaker 4 (43:53):
Right, Like I appreciate it, and I wanted to make
sure that we did it for the right reasons if
we were going to do it. That's why content acted everybody,
because the last thing I want to be a part
of is some last ditch effort to be relevant, right,
And I think you've seen a handful of our brothers
and sisters in this arena, you know, do that in

(44:15):
ways that's inauthentic, you know, not you guys.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
You guys are telling how it is, which I love.
And that's why I said yesterday.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Well it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Let me ask you, okay, because that's a great that's
a great topic of conversation. Because I think what's so
interesting is that, like we already have said back in
the nineties, even bleeding into the late early two thousands,
MTV especially, but real world bleeding into the challenge could
not have been more relevant from a pop culture standpoint.
But what was missing was kind of this whole thing,
the ongoing conversation, which is better for you guys for

(44:45):
the most part, you could go back to the actual
real world. For the other you know, nine months a
year if you wanted to. There wasn't the whole internet,
the three hundred and sixty five day year conversation. You
guys would go do college speaking tours and events and
things like that. But for the most part, there wasn't
the like, oh, and now I have an Instagram career
that I have to run all the time, or I
have all this branding stuff. And in a way, obviously
there's a lot of money left on the table that

(45:07):
people get now that you didn't have at your disposal
back then. But I wonder, like what you're saying about
coming back now is like a last glimmer.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Of this, you know.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
I do think that in a way, you guys are
kind of owed a little bit of the limelight in
today's world, where you have, for instance, just the ease
at which your friends and family can go on a
television now press three buttons and would have been able
to watch you on a homecoming, whereas.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Back then it was like, oh did you catch it?
Oh it's on at eleven, Oh is your taping the thing?

Speaker 2 (45:34):
You know, things like that they can follow you and
your life on Instagram and see you going on a
vacation or if you want them to know what your
kids look like, and things like that, and that truly
is specific to the last say, fifteen to twenty years
of being a.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Celebrity, if you will.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
So, while yes, I agree some people do cling to
it and it can kind of feel dirty in that way,
I do think that for the whether it's the OG's
coming back for All Stars or whether your entire cast
came back for a homecoming, which I don't know that
they're going to do again, I do think there is
that benefit to it that I think you guys are owed, Like,
I do kind of feel bad that you guys had
that level of scrutiny, level of limelight, but a lot

(46:09):
of the fruits of the labor just didn't even get
invented until ten to fifteen years later.

Speaker 9 (46:13):
You know, so my hearing you say that we should
have a check in the mail just for our effort
from somebody, and like, who's going to write that?

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Well, no, Jonni, Dona you get me started on that.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
My point is that that two hundred and fifty thousand
dollars check for Homecoming is sort of the the righting
of the wrong of that. You know, they're unfortunately never
going to go and say, hey, for time spent, Nathaniel,
we've decided that you're owed an extra let's say, sixty
five grand just for us using your name and likeness
for forty years longer than you thought we would.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
That's never gonna happen.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
However, you know, getting a nice little check to come
back for an All Stars, getting the following that comes
with it, maybe some added opportunities. I don't know if
you have any side businesses that could benefit from the
new platform, things like that that I think is kind
of the make good on it. For like, for instance,
a Cyrus who's Cyrus again, Real World Boston, same era
as you. He would have been like raking in the

(47:13):
brand endorsements and all the deals, and he would have
had a million followers if followers existed in nineteen ninety six,
they just didn't. Now flash forward to twenty twenty, he's
trying his best to do the parties and do the brands,
and do the hats and do this and that. And
I think it's all for the better that he's gotten
to have a cup of coffee or two on All
Stars Seasons one and seasons three, et cetera, because it's

(47:35):
kind of like the way to give back to a
Cyrus or to a Nate or to a David without
actually doing what they should do, which is what you said,
and just literally give back to all you guys really
what they should do.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
I love Cyrus, so he's a good buddy.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yeah, who is it too dirty to ask you? Who
you think is the other side of the coin? The
people who are grasping for that laudly you know, anybody
you want to know?

Speaker 1 (47:58):
I did.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
I wouldn't even say it, man.

Speaker 5 (48:00):
Yeah, I think I think like like like people like yourself,
like a coral, you know, Like I think that just
right off the bat should be given like one hundred
and fifty thousand followers, like from Instagram, just just like here,
thank you for being a part of our national pastime,
you know.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
But the problem is the problem with the followers is
this d This is actually the sad reality of it, right.
So the millions of people who when they're walking down
the streets to the Bahamas would recognize that Daniel or
would know Coral, those people are now also in turn
in their fifties and they don't have Instagram. So the
followers that they would be given would be young kids

(48:38):
who would be like, wait, who's this random woman I'm
now following?

Speaker 1 (48:40):
She's a dula? Why do I want to follow a doula?

Speaker 2 (48:43):
So it's not even as simple as like gifting followers
and followings. It's the fact that like you would almost
have to go back in time and like, like when
we talked to Trischelle and we're gonna see Trichelle again
this weekend, she literally got stopped on the side of
the street of La by Leonardo DiCaprio, who is a
big fan of her on the real world.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
And I won't tell you what happened next, but you
catch my drift.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
That's how big of a deal the real world was,
Like you said, Hugh Hefner and Leonardo DiCaprio, the biggest
stars of the world. They were fans of you guys
because you guys were doing the one thing they couldn't do.
And Hugh Hefner did, eventually ten years later, get his
own reality show. But like, these are Oscar Award winning
actors and actresses who would never even for a billion
dollars let a camera crew film them uninterrupted for three

(49:24):
to six months. So they respected you guys on a
level that you know, they probably don't even respect.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Most of their peers, which is interesting.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Speaking of Julia Roberts was a fan of our show.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
Madonna like they would come up at us at the
Video Music Video Awards.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
It was nuts.

Speaker 5 (49:41):
Yeah, I want to hear those letters at some point,
I mean, all yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Want to know what happened to Lindsay Bryant, because it's interesting.
I remember her fairly vividly for somebody who I only
watched on TV thirty years ago. She never did a
Challenge season. I remember her having a bit of a
raspye spoke smoker's voice.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Almost is that does that ring a bell?

Speaker 4 (50:03):
Am?

Speaker 2 (50:03):
I right right there, But that's kind of the way
I describe it. But I remember I was you know,
Kayla kind of has this voice, you know, I remember
being as a kid very enamored by that, that voice
that always had like an era of mystery. She was
very fun, spunky. I thought would have been perfect for
the challenge. I read here that she went on to
a career as a radio correspondent, radio host, television news
correspondent Nebraska, things like that. I'm shocked that we haven't

(50:24):
like seen her in any sort of orbit. Did you
guys ever stay in touch? What happened to her?

Speaker 4 (50:30):
She We didn't really stay in touch, but I do
know that she had a successful career in radio and television,
and I heard the great viot. I think she got
married and did well. I can't remember if she was
in on the Homecoming or not. It was like between,
so I don't know.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
I've heard good her.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
Like Rebecca, I've talked to once or twice. I didn't
really stay connected with anybody from my season outside of David,
because I was trying to separate myself from the real world,
which I didn't realize was gonna hinder me in film
and television coming off the show. Because we were so
recognizable that you chow up to a casting call and

(51:12):
the casting director would even hear you read because you
were Nathan from the real world, you know.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
And I thought it was my way, in which it
was in a lot of.

Speaker 4 (51:19):
Ways because it it allowed me to hurdle some of
the entry level castings, to get to things like Guiding Light,
which I was on, and all these other different different
things that would grow.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
So Lindsey man I, we just didn't say that connected.

Speaker 4 (51:34):
She was a sweetheart. She did have the raspy voice.
It wasn't from smoking, just like mine. She just had
that voice, you know.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
She was a sweetheart.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, no, I mean that it was necessarily from smoking,
but I would that's the one way you can the
one way you can acquire it.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
If we did smoke. I love how you did. Well,
that's another thing they let you.

Speaker 5 (51:54):
Yeah, I love I love I love how we went
from he went Julia roberts and Madonna and you went
to Lindsey. Uh who, Well, I was like railroad there.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Okay, okay, let's talk about Julia. Let's talk about Julia
robertson Madama.

Speaker 5 (52:10):
Did you have any did you have any cool moments
with these guys, the Backstreet Boys, the like other than
like seeing them backstage, like did you like smoke a
joint with them? Or like did you have a drink
like I have. I have got a few moments where
I'm like, oh, you know what, I had a drink
with I bought Buster Rhymes a shot at the Dave
Chappelle show, right like I don't even know he didn't
know who I was. But I'm saying back then, these

(52:32):
guys were like, you know, they wanted to get pictures
with them back then.

Speaker 4 (52:38):
Yeah, man, I've got way too many.

Speaker 3 (52:41):
I can tell you this.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
It was.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
Method Man and I became really close Jay z Ron, Jeremy.
There was like it.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Was this the Holy Trinity, I.

Speaker 4 (52:58):
Mean, Dennis Rodman, you know, like it was this this
thing I tell people today like I was granted access
the real world was my golden ticket that I could
go into any room, anywhere, any time and be accepted
by those people who I looked up as like whoa.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
I remember it in Memphis. I think it was ninety nine.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
The MTV did a think called the Sports and Music
Festival that would end up being kind of rallied into
a couple other things, and I had to audition. I
wanted to be on camera and I remember going through
the whole process and MTV corporate to be a host.

Speaker 3 (53:41):
And so I auditioned and made an audition tape.

Speaker 4 (53:43):
Even after you're in the real world, and I would
I commentated the Street BMX competition with Iced Tea and
Rick flrd right, and so I remember being in the
and this was my first time around celebrities, and our
show was still airing, and I'm backstage in the green
room and Carmen Electra. If you don't know who that is,
just look it up. Carmen Elector was in there and

(54:05):
I was like, Oh my gosh, what's happening? And and
I hear this yo yo yo, you that crazy white
kid from the real world.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
And I know the voice because I grew up on
Wu Tang.

Speaker 4 (54:15):
I turn around and I'm like, yep, that's me. What's up,
you know, trying to be as cool as I can.
And it was him and Redman and DMX and they're like,
you like to smoke.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
I was like, you're damn right, I do.

Speaker 4 (54:27):
And so we went to a van in the parking
lot of the Sports and Music Festival and just ripped
blunts and they freestyled, and I remember sitting there going
like how did I get in this seat? And that
would be kind of a normal experience from that day
forward for the next five five or so years that

(54:49):
we could talk about forever.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
But it was just this moment that I.

Speaker 4 (54:52):
Was like, Man, I don't belong here, but wow, I'm
glad I'm here, you know, and those people to be
that way, and I've got a wonderful story about meth
like method man not meth. And then which would come
into play later, right. Uh.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
He he was the first.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
Guy that said to me in my drinking and using
something to me to the effect that I might need
to really look at myself.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
Man.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
We were at this club and on sunset called Dublin's,
and Dublin's on like Monday night was like the VIP
night for celebrities, and I remember being upstairs in the
VIP and with him in job Rule and and uh
we were partaking in some things that evening, and they
were and I didn't have some of those things.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
And I remember being like, yo, man, what's up? Hook
me up? You know, and and he just you know,
kind of looked at me.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
He's like, man, they may be in a mooch, Dude,
stop you maybe cut cut back. You know, I'm saying
something like real sweet, like cut back, because he was
always really measured man and a great guy who's who's
you know, had an amazing career from Afar.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
We haven't talked in years.

Speaker 4 (56:05):
When I got sober, I reached out to try to
be like, yo, hey, thank you for you know, saying
what you said to me back then.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
And you know it didn't.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
Make it through the filter upon filter he probably has
around him today, But like I just you know, walking
with those people became normal and very quickly.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Even think about it today, Like man, I.

Speaker 4 (56:25):
Wish I could go backwards sometimes to just appreciate it
a little bit more. But getting access to those folks
was was like the golden ticket man, and some people
really ran with it and did well, Mike and THEO
and you know, you just see like this and Theo's.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
Had a Vaughn has had a good story hisself. He's he's.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
He and I have reconnected here in Tennessee where I
live now and been able to talk with him, and
he's in recovery too like me, and you know, we're
lucky we came through that side of it, you know,
and to see like you know Mike Man the miz
blow up the way he does, and and all these
other folks and it's just been it's been meat.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
You know, it's it's interesting. Yeah, that was awesome story.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
Maybe I'm not can't promise that maybe we can do
our best in a roundabout way get this to method man,
because we do we do, you know, we do know
a few people that maybe kind of are in his orbit.
We'll see if we can get a clip a clip
of this maybe over to mister Brian Floyd.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
Uh to.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
Be sure that.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
That clip is is clear in that like a good
influence on my life.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Oh yeah, I think I think so. You know you said,
we we talked.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
We told that the headline is Nathaniel says meth is good.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
No, uh no, what we will do is we'll get it.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
Our man b.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
Floyd's close with a guy named Would who who works
with the Wu Tang and and maybe maybe.

Speaker 5 (57:55):
We can get We don't have to either. We don't
have to either. If that's not a comfortable thing, I can't,
I can't.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
We don't. We'll see, we'll see what happens. But okay,
what's interesting you mentioned.

Speaker 5 (58:04):
Thank you from Nathan. We are changing his life. Yes,
is basically what the what the messages?

Speaker 3 (58:10):
Not? Yes?

Speaker 1 (58:11):
Yes, I know, so well.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
Here's the deal for being a voice that would that,
would you know, remind me? Because he didn't. He didn't
do it, and I was stubborn for the next fourteen years,
you know, and and ended up becoming homeless twice and
losing everything and all these different things. But I remember,
in that process of finally getting tired of being tired

(58:34):
before stepping into a suicidal ideation kind of thing, you know,
he was one of those voices that he that that wrong.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
True that you know, I was embarrassed for years.

Speaker 4 (58:45):
I never told anyone that, you know, like any normal
person if method Man was your acquaintance and friend and
said hey, you should cut back, like they would be
wise and be like, oh yeah, of course. But I
was so full of ego and arrogance and and.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Uh and false verbon auto that I was like, man,
screw you. And that's how I left it with him.
I cut him away, you know.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
And and so anyway, well, let's let's go there, man,
let's let's find out, I mean, because obviously, you know,
it seems like you've had a bunch of ups and
downs and eventually had to put all this like life
behind you.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
That it's great that you're able to go back.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
In the time machine with us today and talk about
some of this stuff with some of the same excitement
I'd imagine you had back then, even though as we
can tell, it kind of steered you down the wrong
path for a certain degree there.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
Uh tell us how that, how that happened? Because you know,
and we have all the time in the world.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
I don't know if you do, but so obviously feel free,
feel free to you know, uh, you know, share as
much as you want about how you went, like you said,
from the ultimate highs of highs.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Uh and and and to to what what.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Sounds like, I know you touched on it briefly, but
sounds like some some traumatic lows for you also.

Speaker 6 (59:48):
To where you are now.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, man, I didn't know what I
didn't know, you know, back then and and again kind
of you know, briefly talking about the childhood trauma and
stuff that that never really got addressed, you know, never
got addressed until years later. You know, I was seeking validation, what,

(01:00:11):
wanting to be on the real world, right to be recognized,
to to have fame, to have money, to have the
things that I think any young boy would associate to,
like success in the Western world, you know, and and
and once I got all that stuff and it was
given to me, you know, I loved it and it
worked and it felt so good. And I was still

(01:00:31):
the same scared little boy behind all that stuff, but
he was suppressed by the admiration of the world, by
the acceptance by the you know, just all the things
man that that kept being given to me very undeservingly,
you know, for being on a tea reality TV show.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
And then I did work towards you know, the craft.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
Of film and television and had some really good accolades
that came along with that. But they all were to
serve one purpose, and it was to serve me right,
because I didn't. I was trying to quiet this internal
voice that was really just saying, hey, something's wrong with you.
You're not enough right, needing, needing the approval of the world.
Well it worked until it stopped.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
And somewhere along the way, you know, drugs and alcohol
co hand in hand with the side of that world
that I was drawn to and excited to be a
part of, and not having a family system or a
group of friends that were close by that kind of
helped me stay on the rails.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
You know, life was up to me. And I tell
people all the.

Speaker 4 (01:01:32):
Time, like Monday mornings, Malibu, Bloody Mary's, and cocaine were
kind of normal. That became this this thing that just
felt normal to me. But the outside world would probably
you know, even as I say it out loud right now,
that's kind of crazy. But we would shoot a commercial
for you know, two days National Spot make sixty k.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Over the course of the year, you do three or
four of those year, you kind of right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
You have all this free time, and I didn't have
any faith in my life and didn't have anything.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
I was chasing all.

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
These things, and the drugs and alcohol just started getting
heavier and heavier and heavier. Well they stop working is
at some point too the internal condition of insecurity starts
to really evolve.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
And the only thing that will quiet that. And I
don't know any of this at the time.

Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
I wish I could say consciously, you decide this as
somebody who falls into addiction and alcoholism, but you don't.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
You just become it, and then people around you are like,
what's wrong with him. Can you see he's ruining his
life and you're in it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:29):
You can kind of see you ruining your life where
you believe the lies that are so perfectly crafted that
you're telling yourself that it'll be different when dot dot
dot dot dot.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
And I don't know any of this then, and I
only know it now.

Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
Because I've been able to go backwards right and with
good people and figure these things out. And I've devoted
my life to helping people do that, you know today,
Long story short, not so short. When drugs stop working,
you start saying yes to more drugs, right, and so
like heavier drugs get involved into the not just cocaine

(01:03:03):
on Monday mornings anymore, you know. And and for me,
it was crack cocaine of all things that took me
out right and living in Venice Beach, you know, just
gotten off the road with Willie Nelson and the Dixie
Chicks for a year being their grandmaster of ceremonies, and
I was doing stand up comedy with Second City, and like, all.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
These things looked really good.

Speaker 4 (01:03:25):
But I was introduced to crack cocaine at Venice Beach
and I remember being like kind of judgmental against it, going.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
Who you know poor people do that.

Speaker 4 (01:03:32):
I'll snort coke right from this, like you know, prideful place.
And shortly thereafter I was like, I think I need
to trying.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
Me some of that, you know. And it kind of
the only Dave Chappelle talks about it. But it's but
it's real and uh. And when I when I entertained that.

Speaker 4 (01:03:48):
For the first time, it it wrecked me like nothing
ever has. And uh.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
And within a year, I was like one hundred and
forty pounds.

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):
I weigh like two o five today, and I stopped
meeting with directors. I blew off my management, you know,
all the good things that I built up from this
kind of career in film and TV.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
We're all becoming secondary, if.

Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
Not tertiary to the drug so much so would empty
my bank accounts, sold and traded everything I had for drugs,
and kind of became that cautionary tale of a guy
on the that was would get recognized from time to time,
you know, working at a bar in Manhattan Beach, stealing
money out of the register so I could leave there

(01:04:34):
and go get high.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
That was two thousand and four.

Speaker 4 (01:04:38):
I was living with a girl at the time who
I'd manipulated and lied to.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
She partied with.

Speaker 4 (01:04:42):
Me, but not like that, and I'd steal from her
and she catch me stealing, and you know, and that
was right around the time of doing the Gauntlet, and
the Gauntlet was kind of like this last chance of like, hey,
let me, let me kind of let me just say
yes to MTV because I'd said no for years because
I was trying to build a real career, no offense
to anybody that has the reality career to be taken serious,

(01:05:05):
and out of my desperation, I say yes to the Gauntlet,
smoke crack cocaine, two days no sleep, showing up to
the Gauntlet perform well, but that keeps me drunk even
longer because I can't get my head wrapped around that
things are really that bad.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Get a big chunk of change from the show.

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
And girlfriend ends up catching me stealing again right from
her in the middle of the night to just sneak out,
and she kicks me out. I ended up calling the
one person that hadn't really I hadn't hurt too bad
at that point in my life, and he lived in
Colorado and he bought me a plane ticket. I flew
to Colorado shortly thereafter, thinking I just needed to leave

(01:05:44):
La and I'd be okay. And I've told this so
many times, but the problem was, you know, I left
LA and got to Colorado, but I was still in.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Colorado and I was the problem, not La. And so
that began this eleven year journey for me into recovery.

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
You know, it took me eleven years to get sober
because I was unwilling to open myself up to the belief.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
In God and a higher power, because I had.

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
Some trauma around church stuff as a child and the
religiosity of things.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
And I say all that to say that God never
gave up on me.

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):
And Man, if you listen to this and you want
to check out when I say the word God, man,
I just asked you to spend some time with yourself
and go, hey, how come that makes you want to
check out?

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
And leave it there? Right? It?

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
Jesus, I didn't know it at the time. Man saved
my life. Like there's no listen, I got no ulterior motive.
There's no link to donate to me or any of
that in this thing. But the truth of it is
I didn't deserve for him to come after me the
way he did. I became a liar, a thief. I
compromised in my body. In those times. I didn't live

(01:06:59):
on the sh street because I was still manipulative enough
and famous enough to talk my way on somebody's couch.
But I had nothing multiple times for years in that
eleven year period and could eventually and would eventually.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
I want to take my life out of the desperation
that had.

Speaker 4 (01:07:18):
Built over years and years and years and years and
years of wanting to not do this yet being a
slave to crack cocaine, which I was, and only a
spiritual experience would would save me from that one that
I didn't believe in.

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):
I didn't want a part of. There's no way that
that's real. It can't be that. Let me try everything
but that. And I tried everything but.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
That only to you know, end up where I was.
And back then I wanted to kill myself in jail
and uh and when I finally stopped running and said,
I don't want to kill myself bad enough that I'll
be kind of open to there being a god, but
it ain't gonna be Jesus, but I'll be cool with
some like bigger god than that uh he met me,

(01:08:18):
you know, and and changed my life and uh and
and has continued to change my life for the last decade.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
And and it's and and I don't deserve any of it.
If you look at my paper, my life.

Speaker 4 (01:08:30):
On paper after the real world, Man, there were some
really cool stuff, But then there was a whole bunch
of stuff here that that should have sentenced me to
a life alone, uh, on the street kind of God,
because I became all the things that I detested, uh
in my addiction, only to now be able for the
last ten years work through that stuff and and understand

(01:08:52):
the why behind some of that, take responsibility for a
lot of the things that I did as well, which
is part of that process, only to then, you know,
find myself today living in Tennessee, married with twins and
running a men's ministry called True North Retreats that I
founded back in two thousand and nineteen, where we take
guys of wall shapes and sizes out into these beautiful

(01:09:15):
facilities to spend time with God.

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
Right in this meditative prayer.

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
Posture to ask God, Hey, like, man, do I need
to look at my past?

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
Hey? How come I yell at my wife? Hey? Why
do I look at pornography like God? Is that a problem?
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:09:31):
Like having these questions to unpack and do the hard
work that is understanding vulnerability and who you are as
a man. Because anybody listen to this, whether you believe
in God or not, you're not back in a thousand
and if you think you are, please email me. I'd
love to talk to you about it. I need somebody

(01:09:51):
to help me with my batting average. And it ain't
going to be you.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
Know, doctor phil or all those other things from me.
It's God. And even hear myself say that out loud
today is like who am I?

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
Because I was a dude in La Malibu Monday Morning's
cocaine and Bluddy Mary's that will try to talk you
out of your faith, out of my own woundedness, and
today blessed to not have to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
So I'm sorry I rambled and went down that road.

Speaker 4 (01:10:17):
But for anybody out there that's hiding secretively some form
of addiction, because here's the real story. Everybody in the
world's in recovery, you just don't know it. The thing
I was in recovery from physically kills people.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
So it's under a.

Speaker 4 (01:10:32):
Microscope and they have twelve steps, and they have all
this other stuff. Well, the human nature is broken and
has been since the beginning of time. So what you're
in recovery from is not maybe killing you physically, but
I bet you it's killing you spiritually, whether it's pride, lust, ego,
that whatever, fill in the blood. And so if you
listen to this, and I just man would encourage it

(01:10:53):
and to look at that because I want to be
a better husband. I'm not a great husband, I'm not
a great father. I want to be a better father
and the only way I get to do that is
by walking with God very imperfectly.

Speaker 6 (01:11:04):
No, thank you for that. I'm a I'm a God guy.

Speaker 5 (01:11:07):
God guy here again, I'm not a either one of
those as well, not a perfect father or a husband.
But I try and I do try to make my way, uh,
you know, into God's realm as much as I can.
So I appreciate this stuff because I think it's a
God shot to anyone that's listening, you know, and it's

(01:11:28):
it's I feel like it's a it's a form of
God talking to whoever's listening to right now.

Speaker 6 (01:11:33):
And we're gonna stop because we don't want to be
those people that are like, go talk to God. If
you do, you do. If you don't, you don't, but
think about it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Go ahead, Yeah, Look, it can be literally like it
could be literally God or Jesus or Catholicism or I
could just as you. I think he used the term
a couple of times higher power or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
But but everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
Listening to this probably has tracked your life and career
to a certain extent from what we saw on TV
then the first thirty five to forty minutes of this interview,
getting a little of the behind the scenes, and then
heard your story about how it createed, fell off a
cliff and how you've rebounded in whatever way you did. Right,
So that story to me is inspiring, and it sounds
like I mean, you mentioned the ministry and stuff like that,

(01:12:15):
but I think between just again your general extrovertedness, but
also I'd imagined a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
Of meetings, a lot of stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
I mean, you've got an amazing public speaking and way
of conveying your story and your past and obviously the
weight that comes with it because of your past and
current notoriety and whatnot.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
Do you do any sort of whether.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
It's not just with the ministry, but additional work or
have you considered doing any additional work of kind of
just sharing your story start to finish with those who
might know you from your time on MTV or maybe
their parents do and stuff like that. And maybe it's
kind of like a Hey, if you're not going to
listen to me or coach or whoever, listen to this
guy Nate I grew up watching on TV who was
you know, at the top.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
Of the world.

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
Listen to how far I fell and listen to where
he is now. Do you do any of that work
as well?

Speaker 3 (01:12:59):
Yes, know, not in an official capacity.

Speaker 4 (01:13:02):
You know, I've gotten it out of my own way
in that and been very vocal to anybody I meet
and and and said yes to anyone who comes to me.
And because of my life being as vocal as it's
been in Texas and Tennessee, you know, I've been fortunate
enough to help a lot of people through telling my story, right,

(01:13:23):
I I don't. I've fought for a very long time
against the ego inside because I know that I could
tap into it to a thing and turn it on
right and potentially get some kind of right public facing

(01:13:44):
thing from it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
Maybe, well, that's what you would get out of it,
but I think other people would get a lot out
of it. Like, I know, you're probably likes it, maybe
kind of you're you're feeling guilty about benefiting from it
financially or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
I've never done that, but I think, but.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
I honestly just think that that in general, a lot
of people would benefit from hearing your story because because
here's this the actually the irony of it. Right back
in the day, Derek yourself, I'm sure you guys would
get booked to go speak at colleges literally for the
only reason being that you were on TV. And I
always used to say, like, no offense, but you don't

(01:14:18):
really have any life experience. Certainly, none of these thousands
of kids that Villanova can benefit from.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
Meanwhile, now though you are.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
Exactly the right person to go talk to colleges or
go talk to people in recovery or people who think
like they need to be in recovery, and the fact
that you have your story down pat start to finish.
I know, again, it sounds like you don't want to
necessarily feel like you're benefiting from it, But I think
there's thousands of people out there who would benefit from
it if you consider it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
So I mean, and I know, look and.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
People are gonna hear this and benefit from this conversation
to the sure, well, so yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:14:49):
I mean, And that was part you know, Scott Mayel
was part of me saying yes to this too, man,
for being a fan of you guys and Derek you know,
and watching what you guys do.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
But it's also like me trying to listen to what
God wants in my.

Speaker 4 (01:14:59):
Life and step into maybe back into some of those
arenas very hesitantly and guarded with the good men around me,
which I have, Like I've got great guys in my
life today that will speak truth to me if the
ego jumps.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
In right when pride and all those things come into place.
And so man, I'm open to it, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:15:19):
Like I've I've worked with businesses through a company I
started some years ago called Lionhearted, where we you know,
work with the executive level managers to unpack the why
behind how they show up in their in their corporate places.

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):
Right. I really believe all men and women need.

Speaker 4 (01:15:37):
To understand their story enough to understand why they react
or retreat to the emotional happenings.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
Of life, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:15:45):
And and for me it's it's through my relationship with God.
And so if opportunities came came because of that, I'd
be one hundred percent open to it without expectation of
anything from it, but also wisely discerning kind of the
motivation behind why I would or would not say yes
to that stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:16:05):
So, so this's a ministry, I forget how a men's ministry?

Speaker 6 (01:16:10):
How did you say?

Speaker 4 (01:16:10):
How is it?

Speaker 5 (01:16:11):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
It's a it's a men's ministry called True North.

Speaker 5 (01:16:17):
Retreats, Okay, and then guys come there to uh like
like to rehab.

Speaker 4 (01:16:27):
No, it's not a it's not a ministry for for recovery.
It's a it's just a ministry for the men who
have a relationship with God or maybe curious about that.
Part of being in relationship with God and my experience
is that I.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
Need to.

Speaker 4 (01:16:45):
Get away from the chaos and the noise of everyday
life from time to time to.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
Turn the volume down on the world.

Speaker 4 (01:16:52):
To tune into God and and do that with intentionality.

Speaker 3 (01:16:58):
Like the guy that I follow.

Speaker 4 (01:16:59):
You to with withdrawal to lonely places often right, And
so if he did that, why aren't I doing that?
And so we help men step away to these really
great facilities where we feed you really good and and
uh and and give you plenty of good places to rest,
and then encourage and challenge you into an internal conversation

(01:17:22):
and investigation of your heart as it relates to your story,
to hopefully walk away from this experience with a little
more data, right, data about you know, why am I
in such a hurry? Why uh do I get so
bent out of shape when somebody.

Speaker 3 (01:17:40):
Challenges me or questions me?

Speaker 4 (01:17:41):
Right, there's this, it's this therapeutic slash spiritual component where
we we uh, we've changed and reimagined how men's retreats
look from a faith perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:17:54):
I gotta I gotta ask, and I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:17:56):
I'm not asking this question because I'm trying to throw
anyone or any companies or anything under the bus or anything.
I'm just genuinely curious. So when you were at the
you know, the thick of your your issues, and as
we mentioned, it was very close to like you say,
you showed up to the gauntlet, you know, three sheets
to the wind on a two day bender, et cetera.
And that kind of bled into this you know, not

(01:18:18):
maybe the start of the peak of these struggles for you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
I'd love to know it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
Did anyone in the world, whether it be individuals or
any of the companies, whether it's b MP, MTV, anybody,
anybody reach out an attempt to help you. I'd imagine
there was maybe a little bit if you pushing people
away as well.

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
But were there any attempted heroes of the day, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:18:38):
There were two. Yeah, there were two.

Speaker 4 (01:18:39):
Matt Cunans was one, who was the director of our
season and kind of the forefather of what the real
world was.

Speaker 3 (01:18:48):
And then Craig Borders, who was also a director.

Speaker 4 (01:18:51):
You know, they tried to help me, and Billy Rainey
did two all three of those directors in my professional
career after the Real World being in LA with them,
you know, they were trying to they were trying to
speak truth to me, and uh, as a young man
not ready for that, man, I just pushed past them,
you know, and and uh. And then years later God

(01:19:12):
would put three men in my life during that eleven
year period of hell for me that that spoke to
me about God in a different way that would eventually
kind of bring me to this place to being open
to God, so I call them my seed sowers.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
But they weren't in the industry.

Speaker 4 (01:19:28):
But there were definitely some people that I'd made relationship
with that that tried to help me.

Speaker 3 (01:19:33):
No organization did.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
Yeah, yes, I mean it's a it's a hot topic
topic even to this day. I mean there's people from
all generations of not just your show, but other shows
that you know, fall off the wagon struggle to varying degrees.
There's another one of Derek's peers and cast members that
we've actually just started talking to, Robin, who's you know,
been very publicly about, you know, a lot of struggles
she's had and things like that. And people always wonder

(01:20:04):
collectively from AFAR whether they have an infrastructure or even
attempt to kind of step in and help when they
can and whatnot. It's sort of not I don't consider
it dissimilar to the way that I think that, say,
the NFL or a sports league is sort of responsible
for a lifetime of potential headaches literally and figuratively, and
injuries and things like that for athletes that I do

(01:20:27):
feel like people who go through the reality TV gauntlet,
if you will, pun intended, you know, can come out
the back end sometimes with issues, whether they be psychological.
You know, one of us she played and was on
the show long after you, but Sarah Rice, who's now
a licensed therapist. She talks about how there needs to
be like a lot of aftercare and they need to
cover therapy for people who just need it from even

(01:20:47):
just the experience of being on the show. But then,
as you did, there's also an element of flying too
close to the sun, and particular during the nineties and
the sunset Strip party landscape, of just being a celebrity
that they don't have necessarily coach you for the post
celebrity life and all that comes with it. So I
wonder if you know that's why I think, you know,
obviously cautionary tales like you, it's interesting to get a

(01:21:09):
first hand story of whether they did help it all
and whether there's any sort of attempt to do so.
It sounds like there wasn't, but I think there certainly
should be.

Speaker 4 (01:21:17):
You know, well, and look, let's be let's be real here.
You guys probably know this. You know LA and New
York as it relates to film and television business as
a predatory landscape period point Blake take the met too
and all that crap out of it, because that's scratching
the surface of what it really is like, you know,

(01:21:40):
and I think revealing the truth of that is probably
more important than anything.

Speaker 3 (01:21:44):
I can't tell you how many times as.

Speaker 4 (01:21:45):
A male model in New York fresh off of my show,
was I compromised by by homosexual male photographers as gatekeepers
into that world that you must get their approval to
get in front of Bruce Webber, Right, So who Bruce
Weber has later come out and find out he was

(01:22:05):
the head photographer for Abercrombie and Fitch. And you know,
we lived in a model house before Zoolander in New York,
and my roommates were all the Abercrombie models and hanging
out with Tyson Beckford and some of these other folks.
Back then, it was like you had to say yes
to what they asked you to do, whether that was
just be nude or going farther right, and if you did,

(01:22:30):
then you got access.

Speaker 3 (01:22:31):
Now, that's not to say everybody had to go through that,
but the majority do.

Speaker 4 (01:22:35):
And that's the same way the casting couches for females
in the film and television world.

Speaker 3 (01:22:39):
It was that way for the male models but but
that quietly.

Speaker 4 (01:22:43):
Just was accepted and still is accepted, because here's the deal.

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
Most people that moved to LA and New York to
take up that.

Speaker 4 (01:22:52):
Kind of career they're running from something anyway, They're seeking
something anyway. And like Sarah Rice, I think, as we said,
you know, as a therapist, like the reality shows don't
necessarily become the trigger point of the trauma. They definitely
inflame it add to it, and maybe there's some stuff
afterwards that that that does become traumatic for sure, But

(01:23:14):
there's usually core adolescent childhood woundedness trauma right that has
happened along the way that where there there's a messaging
that builds into a young boy in a young girl's
heart that if there's not great parenting around that or
spiritual lovingness around that, then then you have no shot

(01:23:36):
as a as a kid, and you end up. And
I think even today as adults, man, we're reacting out
of these these learned behaviors through traumatic moments.

Speaker 3 (01:23:45):
And it doesn't have to be molested.

Speaker 4 (01:23:47):
You don't have to have your your mom or dad
have died to say you've experienced trauma. Trauma is an
emotional upset as defined in the dictionary, right, So you
know there's different levels of trauma, but you live in
a human world led by humans, so you have experienced.

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):
Brokenness by those around you.

Speaker 4 (01:24:09):
And so you know, again going back to the LA
and New York thing, like we could talk for days
about the experiences that I went through, that other people
went through, and you started to see why that was
such a hot topic with me.

Speaker 3 (01:24:25):
Too, But then it kind of fizzles out, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:24:28):
And when there's people desperate enough and alone enough to
do anything for fame and success, that's going to breed predatory.

Speaker 3 (01:24:36):
Behavior there anyway.

Speaker 4 (01:24:38):
And these sharks of evil man, they breed there together.
And I think I think more there should be more
conversations about that or things that are in those cities
to help the people flocking there to get famous go,
Like the NFL has financial planners for the rookies cool,

(01:25:00):
the entertainment business should have therapists like Sarah.

Speaker 3 (01:25:03):
Come in and hey, well, let's talk about your childhood.
Why do you want to be here?

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
You know, it's actually you know, to go back to
what that producer said to us, it's actually the opposite
where to go back to your childhood?

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
Why do you want to be there.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
They were doing that, they were finding that stuff within
you and choosing you because of it. And uh and look,
did it make for a great season of television like
Real World Seattle? Did it make for some iconic TV
characters like Puckin' whomever? But is that the best way
to go about thrusting people into the the ether of
Hollywood and drugs and limelight and everything like that?

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
Maybe not?

Speaker 6 (01:25:36):
Maybe?

Speaker 5 (01:25:36):
Like, look, look, the thing is is like you're you're
not like you can choose to continue, Like we all
have our choices, right, Like I've I've I did virtually
this not not the same thing. But I lived in
La after I did the shows. I you know, I
had my ups and downs. You know, I've been divorced,

(01:25:57):
like you know, like I I've had Like You've got
me spinning to the point of like what I I'm
thinking about my sixteen year old and what I've put
him through, you know what I mean. And it's not
like it's not like like all bad shit, but you
think about like the emotional trauma from just divorce in general,
you know what I mean, Like how much closer I

(01:26:18):
need to teach this kid to stay with God as
he continues, because it hasn't been this like you know
this like uh, this this cookie cutter process for him
or me or the future of my life or even
what we're doing here, Like no, like once we got
off the show, like we didn't know.

Speaker 6 (01:26:38):
I didn't know what I was doing before the show.

Speaker 5 (01:26:40):
First of all, right, I went on an adventure, right,
and then somehow find myself on another adventure and another
adventure and another adventure, and somehow we fucking survived it,
and somehow we're sitting here having a podcast talking about
these life stories, which are cool as fuck, by the way,
and thank you again. But like there was, there is
not going to be whether Sarah Rice implements, Hey, these

(01:27:02):
people should have therapy. There is therapy for these people, right,
They're there that that is there, right, But like whether
whether there is therapy, even lifelong therapy for these people.

Speaker 10 (01:27:13):
They're gonna go and do whatever fucking drug or alcohol
or binder or or or terrible life choice that they
damn choose to do, and whether it's an accident, and
whether it stems from reality TV or not, like they're
gonna have to like work through that and it's not

(01:27:33):
all because oh they were on this reality show, so
they must have been fucked up or they must have
been thrust into this world that they can't handle.

Speaker 6 (01:27:40):
It's like, it's like, you know, you.

Speaker 5 (01:27:43):
Don't have to be in reality TV to like fuck
up your life.

Speaker 2 (01:27:47):
But the difference is this right to use the sports
analogy again, Right, what happens before every draft, they give
them this wonder lick test.

Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
Right, They're testing the.

Speaker 2 (01:27:55):
The the social and and emotional and mental advocacy of
quarterbacks to decide do we want this guy?

Speaker 1 (01:28:02):
Does he have what it takes to lead a team?

Speaker 4 (01:28:03):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
It's almost as.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
If they do the opposites with who they want on
reality TV, they almost go, do you kind of not
have all your shit together?

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
Perfect?

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
So I'm just saying that it's yes, I did.

Speaker 6 (01:28:15):
No, I thank you very much, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:28:18):
And I'm not saying it's entirely across the board evil
to do that, and lord knows we wouldn't be here
if they didn't. I'm just saying that what comes with
that is maybe then the failsafe of in the event
that someone you know, lets it go as far as
Nathaniel did for a few years there, that there's an
not to say that you would have done this, but
that there's an easy place for him to go and

(01:28:39):
outlet to go where maybe they have a setup where
you know, whatever costs for rehab or whatever are covered
by them.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
But I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
I think what you were getting at, Nathaniel is that
that kind of comes with that as a little culpability,
almost almost having that program implies that they know they
are not even responsible but tangentially related to someone's collapse
or anything like that. So so is that why they
don't do it? Probably, But I don't know anyway.

Speaker 5 (01:29:04):
Well, and some people and some people like like you
mentioned Mike them is Jamie Caramo whoever? Right, like they
they jumped off that ship and decided to you know,
go in the direction they want to.

Speaker 6 (01:29:17):
THEO Vaughn jumped off it said this ain't for me.
I'm gonna keep going.

Speaker 5 (01:29:21):
And you know, like you think that they haven't had
their ups and downs, maybe it hasn't been you know, public,
but I'm sure that somewhere along the line, because of
their job choices, they ran into some trauma and they
had to figure out their way to get out, make
their way out of the dirt, you know what I mean?
It's their choice on how fall they're gonna how how fald,

(01:29:42):
how fall they're how far they're gonna let themselves fall,
and how quickly they're gonna pick themselves back up, and
how long it's gonna take. And when you become a
mentor mentor and make these stories a mentorship for other
people who are struggling, you know, whether it be Nathaniel
Us on stage whatever, I mean, people time they're like, man,
you know, you remind me of myself, you know, and

(01:30:05):
they don't know my deepest, darkest stories.

Speaker 6 (01:30:08):
And we're still fucking here and cheers to that, my friends.

Speaker 3 (01:30:12):
Hey, look, I love tears to that.

Speaker 4 (01:30:15):
I love all that, But I do want to say
this to anybody that's still listening to that and checked
out from talking about God, which maybe there's seven of you. Look, man,
I think we as men and women in this human
experience can very easily miss the invitation and get overwhelmed

(01:30:37):
with all the things way out here and over here
and over here, And the invitation is really like man.

Speaker 3 (01:30:41):
Like in I loving my kids? Well? Am I loving
my wife? Well?

Speaker 4 (01:30:48):
Am I presenting a different guy to the podcast than
I do at home?

Speaker 6 (01:30:54):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:30:54):
What am I seeking in my.

Speaker 4 (01:30:57):
Private life, like what these are all questions that I
want to encourage whoever still listening to this. It's like, man,
are you walking blindly reacting to the world virus that
is around us? Being inundated by all the inputs to
get you into a place of isolation and fear, you know.
And I think if you're not careful, we all fall

(01:31:18):
victim to those things through the modalities that we choose
to be around, you know. And I think to change
the world, you know, and to make changes, it starts
with you as an individual, like looking at myself and going, man,

(01:31:42):
I'm not loving my kid's great, I'm not loving my
wife perfect. I want to be better? Okay, now what right?
And that's the encouragement for all of us and everything
that we do. And Derek, you sit there, you're thinking
about your sixteen year old and what you could have
done different.

Speaker 3 (01:31:56):
Man, I'm encouraging you right now. It's no, it's what
you do now, yeah, right, it's what.

Speaker 4 (01:32:00):
You do moving forward and how you do that and
through vulnerable conversations and confessions of responsibility of Man, I'm
not perfect, I never will be, but man, I want
to be better.

Speaker 1 (01:32:13):
Well, I think this whole thing to me was a highlight.

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
And I think you know you obviously, being so candid
and willing to share your story is going to help
a lot of people, certainly engage a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (01:32:24):
So I want to choose my words wily, wisely.

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):
I don't want to say, let's end on a high
note or a brighter note or anything like that, but
let's end on what I'll call a challenge note. Since
we did cover in essence the challenge very little, which
I think is fine.

Speaker 1 (01:32:35):
I think this is far more interesting. But give us one,
you know, challenge memory or a highlight for you that
sticks out to you. But before we let you go today, oh.

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
Man, it's it's a no brainer.

Speaker 4 (01:32:47):
It's when I won on the first gauntlet, we got
to learn how to fly I think they were.

Speaker 3 (01:32:54):
Called S and J sixteen.

Speaker 4 (01:32:56):
They're the two seater training fighter jets propeller that they
used to train.

Speaker 3 (01:33:04):
In World War One. In World War Two.

Speaker 4 (01:33:06):
We learned how to fly those in dog fight in
the air and I have the fastest killed time at
that airfield.

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
Still to this day.

Speaker 4 (01:33:17):
And I think it was Rachel, which is a big deal.
I think I beat Rachel because she's a she's just
the beast man Like back then, you know her Veronica
and Abe had this like trifecto on their guts who
we went against thea Vonn was on that one as well, right,
And that's how we reconnected here in Tennessee.

Speaker 3 (01:33:39):
I'll talking about.

Speaker 4 (01:33:40):
That show, but just getting my victory because because you
kind of an old dog on those shows even back then,
and you looked at the Montanas, and you looked at
the Norms and these younger Altons and you know, Earline
and all them are you know, sizing up like what
they're going to bring to the table, you know, and
let's cut their heads off.

Speaker 3 (01:33:58):
Quickly, quickly.

Speaker 4 (01:33:59):
And somehow, you know, I slide through all that because
of who I am. But I remember when I won
that to bring that trophy back was really cool. Not
to mention, I got to learn how to fly a
fighter jed and then Dogfight, which was gangster.

Speaker 1 (01:34:15):
I don't know if you know this.

Speaker 2 (01:34:16):
Rachel literally just still is out there doing it. She
won the last season of the Challenge season forty, so
she's out there still doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:24):
Didn't have to fly a plane or anything like that.
But Derek, I'll give you the last word here, but look.

Speaker 5 (01:34:29):
I was gonna throw some more road Rule names at
him to really put a final kabash on the Real
World road Rules Challenge, which is no more.

Speaker 6 (01:34:36):
But this guy essentially started.

Speaker 5 (01:34:38):
And well the Gauntlet, I don't know when it ended,
maybe season twenty. Real World road Rules finally ended, but
I wanted to quickly throw these names at you from
from road Rules and see if one more something sparks
up from any of these guys. Adam Larson currently back,
just won the season. Him and Steve Manke were on
the Gauntlet. Remember, and Dave Gentoli were like the king

(01:35:04):
and Queen of the challenge at the time. Dave Gentotli
goes on to be like a superstar actor. Rachel Robinson
obviously takes the big break, comes back and now she's
she's again one of our queens. Sarah Grayson one of
those names that like never never, like she's never done
a challenge since that one that she did, but she's

(01:35:26):
still the Gauntlet Queen. And like the name is like
forever President Abraham became this like monster came and gone literarian. Uh,
you know, had had had a long you know, stay away,
but again becomes one of those household names.

Speaker 6 (01:35:41):
You know, I think all.

Speaker 5 (01:35:42):
Three all stars, uh, Tina, Katie Doyle, just one like Drell,
just one last you know, whatever comes.

Speaker 6 (01:35:53):
To mind with these these Final World Rules people.

Speaker 4 (01:35:55):
Dude, there there's way too many stories that come up
to my mind, like I Durrell and apology, g Man,
like I man, we partied way too hard on the
Gauntlet Adam.

Speaker 3 (01:36:06):
Man, dude, he he uh.

Speaker 4 (01:36:09):
He made a gesture of me about cocaine while filming
the show, like.

Speaker 3 (01:36:14):
Going like, yo, go want you go do that again? Right?
Because it was so.

Speaker 6 (01:36:17):
Yeah he would, wouldn't he? Back then? I hated that
guy back then. I like him little more now, but
we just.

Speaker 4 (01:36:23):
Hated the way, yeah, the way, the way that all
was man, and we had Alton, and Alton was this
like yo, he could not.

Speaker 3 (01:36:31):
Be beat in anything he did right and he was awesome. Man.

Speaker 4 (01:36:36):
So I just have like tons of memories of all
those cats and and how crazy it was.

Speaker 3 (01:36:41):
H nothing nothing specific other.

Speaker 4 (01:36:45):
Than like, man, hey, if if if I owe you
an apology, because I might just hit me up.

Speaker 3 (01:36:52):
Man, dere's got my email?

Speaker 6 (01:36:54):
Well I can just I can just send that to
Durrell very casually.

Speaker 3 (01:36:58):
And he's just telling man like I was a mess
man back then.

Speaker 6 (01:37:02):
Absolutely, and I think he will. I can.

Speaker 5 (01:37:04):
I think I can speak for him and he will
accept the apology. I'll give him a bro hug from
you too the next time I see him. Absolutely, not
proud of, not proud of the guy was at at
our rap party.

Speaker 3 (01:37:15):
Put it that way.

Speaker 1 (01:37:17):
Yeah, how where in Tennessee are you at?

Speaker 3 (01:37:19):
In Franklin, So just south of Nashville.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
So we we do Nashville maybe once or twice a year. Look,
I don't, I don't obviously, you know, we do do
our shows and events and places where people are, you know,
consuming alcohol to various degrees.

Speaker 3 (01:37:33):
My wife drinks.

Speaker 1 (01:37:35):
Please, well then you know what. You know what? How
about this? You stay home, send your wife And I'm kidding,
I know, I have you.

Speaker 3 (01:37:40):
Both, I have.

Speaker 6 (01:37:41):
I have one more request.

Speaker 5 (01:37:42):
If I'm gonna say I'm gonna give your apology to Durrell,
you gotta tell Diovan I say, I say hello, and
he's doing well.

Speaker 3 (01:37:49):
Yeah I will man, He's yeah, I definitely will.

Speaker 4 (01:37:53):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:37:53):
I'll pass that along.

Speaker 4 (01:37:54):
And anything I can do to help you guys, man
and dude, I'd love to come to one of the
challenge manias or any that kind of stuff and moving
like said, there's anything I can do. You know, you
guys have my support and I appreciate what y'all did.

Speaker 1 (01:38:06):
He just did it, brother, We appreciate you.

Speaker 3 (01:38:08):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:38:08):
So great to hear you and just hear your voice.
You sound like Ron White by the way, you know
Ron White?

Speaker 3 (01:38:14):
Ay?

Speaker 1 (01:38:15):
Yeah, man, But dude, it's such a pleasure, and we
will let you know.

Speaker 2 (01:38:19):
We'll probably be we'll be back in Nashville within the
next eight to twelve months, so we'll definitely let you know.

Speaker 3 (01:38:22):
All right, sounds good, Derek, you got my number?

Speaker 4 (01:38:25):
Hit me up.

Speaker 6 (01:38:25):
I got my number. Absolutely, let they'll know. I'll let
the rell know.

Speaker 3 (01:38:28):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:38:30):
Thanks brother Nick.

Speaker 2 (01:38:31):
All Right, guys, this sends your time here on Challenge Mania.

Speaker 1 (01:38:34):
Take care of yourselves and hopefully we'll see in the future.

Speaker 7 (01:38:53):
The Challenge Mania Shop is open. Head over to Challengemnia
dot Shop today for the best way to support the
podcast while looking good doing it. New designs and items
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