Episode 1183: Will the Real Jew Please Stand Up.

GUEST: Daniel S. Browne
BOOK: Unmasking Satan's Counterfeit Israel
LINK: https://www.amazon.com/Unmasking-Satans-Counterfeit-Israel-Evangelical/dp/B0DY51LZZ3

Charles Moscowitz LIVE
Website: https://charlesmoscowitz.com
Moscowitz Author Page:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Charles-Moscowitz/author/B00BFLX7S0
Buy Me a Coffee, Join me for Coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/moscowitz

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good afternoon. Child's mosque is hereuning me everyone, and my
guest has pasted a creature. Dan Daniel S. Brown is
the author of Unmasking Satan's Counterfeit Religion. Dan, thanks for
joining me today.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
I appreciate you having me. You know, it's good to
reach you virtually, and I look forward to the conversation
very good.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
So look, your contention, then, is that the Jewish people
generally and the Jewish people of Israel specifically, I'm not
the true Jews, that somehow we're counterfeit, and that there
is some other Judaism or maybe Judiaism doesn't exist. So

(00:44):
let's just go right to your thesis. I mean, how
do you make that case?

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Absolutely? And you know, I don't know. If you got
a chance to like Perus or the book at all,
I'd be hapy to send you a free copy. But
inside the book is not you know, I was going
to be very clear, it's an attack on Judaism, an
attack on the Jewish people. My whole stance as a
as a New Covenant Christian believer in the New Covenant
Gospel of Christ is showing how the New Covenant reframes

(01:12):
interprets what the nation of Israel is and it's not
there's this error to be made on either either side
of the road here, right, So I'm sure you've you're
familiar with the theology of replacement theology also know the
super sessionism. So that's that's not contention here. The other
contention is dispensationalism, which which views you know, modern day
Zionus Israel as fulfillment of like Old Testament prophecy. So

(01:35):
my contention is that that there's a middle road that
neither of those are the accurate interpretation of of Jesus'
words and the New Testament with the apostle Paul Uh,
you know, the information that possible Paul provided throughout his
his epistles. So there's a lot of rhetoric that surrounds

(01:56):
us this topic of what is true Israel. And I
think you know, for you yourself might agree that in
the Old Testament Israel takes on different meanings. Right, So
it starts as a person Jacob, that becomes the family
of Jacob, the twelve tribes of Israel. Then we see
kind of expand into the land of Israel. And then

(02:17):
when the ten northern tribes split after the after King Solomon,
you see Israel, you see Judah. And so there's just
always this unfolding narrative throughout the Bible of what is Israel.
And then as a believer in the New Testament, when
we get to the New Testament, Jesus and the Apostle
Paul kind of further expand our understanding of what is

(02:38):
actually meant by Israel as the covenants community of God.
So in Romans chapter two, in Romans chapter nine, the
Apostle Paul, you know, tells us that it's Israel is
basically a spiritual community. It's not just the physical Jews.
It's not just because you're from physical Israel that makes
you of Israel. Yeah, even says in Romans chapter nine,

(03:00):
verses sixty nine that just because somebody is from Israel
doesn't mean that they are of Israel. And so you
see this expanding narrative of what is Israel. And then
Jesus himself in Matthew chapter two, verse fifteen, you know,
the narrative of the birth of Jesus. And after Jesus
was born, they fled to Egypt to escape the iron

(03:21):
fist of Herod. As Herod was killing the killing all
the Hebrew babies at the time to try and snuff
out Jesus. When Jesus returns to Israel, we see in
the Book of Matthew chapter two, verse fifteen that Matthew
applies Hoseiah's prophecy of Hoseiah chapter eleven, verse one and

(03:42):
applies it to Jesus. So, now not only is it
the people of Jesus that are described as Israel, but
Jesus himself takes on the persona of Israel of doing
the things that Israel came, you know, failed to do,
upholding the covenant, you know, the sign I covenant with God.
And so Jesus stepped stepped into creation as Jesus to

(04:03):
fulfill what Israel had failed to do up until the
oldest times. So it's it's a the reason why I
wrote the book actually started as my notes as I
was going through this. I started this as a personal journey,
and so in order to organize my thoughts because it
is a very complex topic. It is a very a
touchy subject, as you mentioned. But now we're in there,

(04:24):
is there is there any notion of you know, hatred
towards anybody, hatred towards Jewish people.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
That's not hatred. I just I think that we have
a different interpretation of the Tanach, which is of course
the Bible, and that I think that the I mean,
I tend to embrace what seems to me to be obvious.

(04:49):
But yet it's something that neither Christians nor Jews accept,
and that is the dual covenant idea. Because the covenant
between God and and Israel, God in Abraham, who was
named Israel. Even Jesus himself, in the Book of Acts
and in the Book of Nothing says that that covenant

(05:11):
is forever. It is not a jot or tittlell change
until the end of time. And yet and that that
covenant has continued, the Jewish people have continued that governant,
not all of us by any means, but at least
a remnant of us, have continued to try to adhere
to that covenant, and have done so from the days

(05:32):
of Abraham right up till today. At the same time,
it seems to be obvious that Jesus, who I view
as a Jew, even though he was thought of as
a heretic at the time. But yet Jews have generally
reassessed that that he established a new covenant also, and

(05:53):
the evidence of that is the fact that believed in
God and being closest to God and acceptance of all
the moral and ethical recepts of the Turum have spread
to most of mankind through his ministry, and that his
ministry has resulted in an incredible development of civilization and
moral civilizations, first in Europe and then finally flowering in

(06:15):
an ultimate expression in the United States. So to my
way of thinking, that's evident that Jesus's Covenant is also
quite real. But the Jewish Covenant remains, and it has
remained every day since Abraham. And my proof of that
is the fact that not a single day has gone
by from the time of Abraham until today. Well, you

(06:40):
don't have some ten bomb misted, circumcised Jewish men stand
together and recite the Shamah, and they recite the Sitter,
and they do it three times a day. And to me,
that is a miracle. I mean, that is an incredible thing.
Now that I'm not suggesting that all Jews, there's even

(07:02):
most Jews try to adhere to and believe in the tour,
the tour that Jesus himself said, not a job of
title shall change. But I think enough of us have
through the generations that we have kept it alive and
that the cabinet has continue to exist and thrive, often under.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Various and absolutely I respect that point of view. And
I saw as I was going through doing a little
bit of research, I saw you've written a number of books,
so I would be interested to, you know, to check
out some of your writings. I'm always open to, you know,
to hearing from other people and learning from other perspectives.
And I think that's one of the things that we've
lost from this current climate that we're in, where you know,

(07:47):
you can't sit down and have a civil conversation with
somebody and at the end of the day disagree with
them but not hate them as a person. Like we
can disagree about certain things, but I still recognize your
value as a human being, and I still recognize you, know,
as somebody who has made in the image of God.
And again, I the way I interpret Matthew Chapter five,
verse seventeen and eighteen, she just said, you know, not

(08:09):
a jot or tittle would disappear until it was all fulfilled.
And when he was dying on you know, when he
was being crucified on the cross, what was his last
words his last words, it is finished. So the fulfillment
isn't talking about the end of the world. The you know,
the apocalyptic language that's used in or in Matthew chapter five,
verse eighteen mirrors that of Isaiah and the Old Testam

(08:30):
of Prophets, where they were very apocalyptic in the ways
that they talked about, you know, the destruction of Babylon,
the destruction of these these ancient kingdoms that that came
against Israel. When when you read it, read it off
the top, you might think that, you know, Isaiah is
in Isaiah chapter thirteen, that he's he's talking about you know,
cataclysmic apocalyptic event at the end of the world when

(08:51):
he rallies. That's that's not what he's he's prophesying. So
the way I see that in Matthew chapter five, verse eighteen,
as well as in all of that discourse, where this
Jesus is purposely using you know, tona style language from
the Prophets where his audience would understand what he was saying.
And then he reinterprets this towards the end when he's

(09:11):
he's you know, through his death on the cross and
he says it is finished, and I know you know, you,
even many Christians, like on the Christian Zionists, the far
hardcore dispensational aside, most or a lot of people view
the Book of Hebrews as being written to a different audience,
not to you know, the entire collective covenant people of God,

(09:32):
but from my perspective again as a as a new
covenant Christian in the in the Book of Hebrews. In
Hebrews chapter seven, when when you know the author, whether
it was the apostle Paul Paulos or an unknown author
speaker at the time, the author delves into, you know,
the priesthood of Christ, where Jesus is a high priest

(09:53):
in the order of Melchizedek and not in the Order
of Levi. And as you well know that the significance
of that would mean that there's a whole new system codified,
you know, a whole new, whole new covenant. And in
Hebrews chapter seven, verse twelve, it talks about, you know,
the really all throughout Hebrews chapter seven, how the new

(10:16):
Covenant or then the new priesthood mandated a new covenant.
And so it's specifically says they can't coexist. And as
it goes into Hebrews chapter eight when it talks about,
you know, the first was done away with, and the
Hebrews Chapter eight, first or verse thirteen, it talks about

(10:36):
the old One was dying away, it was waxing old
and would soon vanish away. And again my interpretation as
a as a Christian that that believes in the New Testament,
and you know, the New Covenant, Gospel of Christ. The
Old Covenant vanished away in eighty seventy. Finally, you know,
that was the outward symbol of the you know, the
physical destruction of the temple, the physical destruction of Russell,

(11:00):
and the physical destruction of all the elements that were
required for the sacrificial system, the temple, the priesthood, the
you know, all the stuff that went into the Old
Testament sacrifices. By the destruction of all of that in
eighty seventy, that was the symbol to the early Church
that it's no longer about the Old Covenant. The Old
Covenant has been abolished and fulfilled in the flesh of Christ.

(11:24):
Iph you just chapter two talks about, you know, the
dividing wall of hostility between Jews and between Gentiles was demolished,
was abolished inside of uh, you know, with with the
work of Christ on the cross. So that's all I said.
I with the you know, not a job of Toto
will vanish away. I see that as being fulfilled with
the death of Christ on the Cross. And you know, I.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Understand that and I respect that. I mean, I just
wonder though, if that be the case, then why would
Christianity continue to hold the what you call the Old
Testament as canon law or as canon as part of
your texts. I mean, if it's all fulfilled, then why
even bother with it? I mean, it seems and also

(12:08):
I mean I my understanding is that when Jesus had
come to fulfill the Torah or the Mosaic Code, he
meant that. And again this is his interpretation, right. I mean,
we have different and probably irreconcilable opinion, which is fine
with me, That's okay. But my understanding is that he

(12:30):
meant that in the Jewish sense, in that he came,
like the prophets, came to try to be a light
to a Jewish people or Judean people at the time
who had were struggling and who had fallen away and
who were dealing with terrible oppression by the Romans, and
he came to fulfill all of the commandments of the

(12:52):
Torah like the prophets, because that's what the prophets also
said in their day, and they all came at a
time when Israel Udea was suffering and there was kind
of a waning of faith, not that he personally was
ending the Covenant, but that he had come to try to,
you know, move it along and activate it and bring

(13:16):
inspiration like the prophets have done. And as far as
the end of the Covenant, I think that obviously that
hasn't happened, because the Jewish people have continued from that
time until today with the Covenant. You know, even when
even at a time when they lost their statehood, they
continue to find a way to observe the Covenant, and

(13:41):
the Talm would help develop certain methodologies to do that.
But either way, they kept the faith and the Covenant.
They kept a hearing at least a good segment of
us to the command to know God and to incorporate
all of the moral and precepts and ethical precepts revealed
by God It's signed I into their lives and to

(14:03):
be an example to all the nations. So I mean
that that's continued. It's it hasn't ended at all. And
when Jesus said it's over on the cross, I don't
know was he saying that the Covenant was over? Was
he saying that his life was over? I mean he
also called out to God, like, what's happening here? How
is it that I'm dying like this? I mean, I

(14:24):
you know, these things are up for interpretation. Is just
my point.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Here, absolutely not. You know, I obviously respect your point
of view, and I my mission in life is not
to like jam anything down anybody's throw, just kind of
sharing my perspective and if if people are open to
receiving it, to reading it, then you know, I pray
that the Holy Spirit will move in that way. A
couple of things that you had mentioned the well, I

(14:50):
guess saving that the larger one. But when Jesus came,
you know, you mentioned he came at a time of trouble, right, so,
the the heavy oppressive hand of Rome, and it was
just it was a very turbulent time for the Jewish
people back you know, in the in the early days
of jesus ministry and even leading up to his death

(15:12):
and then after that as well, and it speaks directly
to even his disciples didn't really understand what was going on,
even really until after after he was crucified, where they
were all focused on a earthly kingdom. They thought Jesus
had come to overthrow the Roman Empire. They thought they'd
come to, you know, set the people free from a

(15:34):
physical nationalistic sense of restoring this this nation of Israel
to its former glory. And again these are even the
people that were following Jesus for his entire you know,
three plast year ministry on earth. And so it wasn't
until afterwards they they they realized were Jesus' words of
you know, he says his kingdom is not of this world.
His kingdom has not come with observation. His kingdom is eternal,

(15:56):
his kingdom. So they were focused on the physical and
earthly all the while Jesus was focused on the spirituality
of the kingdom that he had come and the you know,
the the salvation through you know, Jesus being the Way,
the truth, and the life, and then the holy Spirit
of the Day of Pentecost. Like they were focused on
the earthly things and missed and again even his disciples

(16:19):
missed the spirituality of the spiritual nature of the Kingdom
that Jesus had brought with him, and then the other
thing I wanted to mention too, like, yeah, a shamedly
in the Christian Church, I don't. I think a lot
of people, especially in evangelical circles, they don't study the Tanakh,
they don't study the Old Testament, they don't study the
history of you know, the Christian roots, and they kind

(16:40):
of just pushed that aside and got the old stuff.
We're here for the new stuff. But you look at
jesus ministry was based in the Tanakh, it was based
in then the Prophets. It was you know, you ookay,
like going back to the Book of Hebrews, almost seventy
five percent of the Book of Hebrews is references from
the tanakhcause references from the Hebrew Bible, and time and

(17:02):
again throughout the you know, Synoptic Gospels and all these
the other epistles. It always goes back to the roots
of the Old Testament. You look in Luke chapter twenty four,
and this is one of the most impactful concepts for me,
comes from the Book of Hebrews and the Book of Romans.

(17:23):
The concept of types and shadows. I'm not sure if
you're familiar with that concept from Hebrews, where it talks
about how Old Testament references were essentially foreshadowings for the
coming of Christ, for the Messiah. They didn't directly tell
the story, like they didn't directly mention Jesus in the

(17:43):
Old Testament, but they spoke to the nature of Jesus.
And this is when in Luke chapter twenty four, after
the Resurrection, two times, once on the road to Amis,
where he's walking the two disciples on the road to
a Maus who didn't recognize them until he revealed himself
to them. He told them of how the lawn the
prophets spoke of him right right, And then later on
and when he's talking to the disciples he says the

(18:05):
exact same thing. So, you know, we're just kind of
scratching our heads, like, well, hold up, like, where does
it mention to Jesus because I don't remember seeing the
you know, Jesus in the Old Testament. But when you
look at so Hebrews chapter eight, verse five and Hebrews
Chapter ten, verse one talk about how the old sacrificial
you know, the sacraments and the Tabernacle, the priesthood, and

(18:28):
everything was we're shadows of what was to come, and
Classed two seventeen says that the Old Testament feast days
and stuff were shadows that would be fulfilled in Christ.
And when you start looking back through and again coming
from a Christian perspective, I don't necessarily expect you to
accept these with this. This is from a Christian perspective
of the New Testament looking backwards, where all of these

(18:51):
Old Testament stories, the story of Jonah, where the story
you know, Jonah spends three days and the belly of
the fish spat up on land, and then he goes
to lead a re in the Gentile city of Ninevah,
the only gentile city that was saved in the Old Testament.
So what that was was a a picture, right, it
was a type. It was a foreshadowing of Jesus spending

(19:12):
three days in you know, CRUs finally cross three days
in the belly of the earth rising, and then the
Gentile inclusion into the Covenant family of God. The you
know Noah's Ark where the arc represents a type of
christ salvation for the righteous remnant amidst the tumult of
the storm and chaos, and the and the unknown. You

(19:33):
have the story of Ruth and Boaz, where Boaz, you know,
is a type of Christ as the kinsman redeemer who
saves the gentile Ruth, you know. And then Naomi is
also grafted into the family of God, into the family
as the as the you know, Israelite. And then all
these stories all throughout the Old Testament, of the story

(19:54):
of Abraham and Isaac, where we have Abraham, you know,
the father willing to sacrifice his his only son, right
his covenant son, the son who the covenant would pass through,
but his promised son. And you have the son carrying
his his you know, his the power of ruin.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Let me just interrupt him, because I would suggest that
even the rabbis acknowledged that when Isaac was carrying the
pile of sticks, he was carrying them in the shape
of a cross. And you know, I understand.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
That you're the idea of of of Christian interpreter is
looking back at the Tanakh, the Old Testament and interpreting
things in a way that confirms a proof text to Jesus.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
And I respect that. I would only mention that the rabbis,
who are the contemporaries of the authors of the New Testament,
and up till today, they have a different interpretation of it.
That's all. I mean, we don't we see, you know,
like the kind except of the suffering Servant as representing

(21:02):
the Jewish people in every generation, and that Jesus's immediate
followers after his execution, his brother James, and the earlier
church which was in Jerusalem, they were very much in
the fold of Judaism or or you know, at the time.

(21:23):
I mean, they were all various schisms. It wasn't a
unified thing. But I think where there was a separation
was when the Ministry of Paul got started. And in fact,
in the Book of the Acts, they actually show that
Paul came back to Jerusalem and he had a falling
out with j James, and that there was there was
you know, it was kind of a dislocation because he

(21:46):
created kind of I don't know, I mean, a bit
of a reform Judaism, one that would be palatable to
the entire world. And I'm not bringing that up to
criticize it either. I mean I think that it was
it worked fabulously, but it was not. It was sort
of out of the fold of at that point the

(22:07):
Jewish covenant, I mean, it was a different He developed
an entirely different covenant, an entirely different understanding Jesus as
son of God. Eventually in Saint John John it became
God himself and all of these things which have never
been I mean, Jews have never really been able to
accept that. It doesn't seem it's not the traditional understanding

(22:28):
of the Messiah, which as you said, was a more
of a nationalistic figure, a more of an earthly figure.
But at the same time, also with nuance, because Judaism
is very universal and that we recognize and Christianity recognizes
the one True God, who is God of all of man,
and that all men and women were created in the
image of God according to the Book of Genesis. So

(22:50):
it's you know, there's a there's a universality to the
messiatic context concept in Judaism and Judaism itself. But at
the same time, we believe that when we start at
the foot of Sinai, God gave us an extra layer
of responsibility. You know, there were extra rituals that were

(23:11):
assigned to us, some of them totally it seemed irrational.
But yet all of it was to serve as our
way of worshiping God, not conquering man. I mean this
anti sem M'd say, oh, the Jews want to conquer
the world. No, it's not a physical command. It's a
spiritual command that we know God by raising our spirituality.

(23:33):
The only physical command in the entire five books of
Moses is that Jews take possession of that miserable, tiny
swath of land that exists between the river and the sea,
in other words, what we now call the state of Israel,
and that the state of Israel today is exactly within

(23:56):
the proportions of that land, as described in the Book
of Deuteronomy. When Joshua crossed the Jericho, it's quite clear
he was leaving gentile nations, even though tw two and
a half tribes stay behind, and they took possession of it. Nevertheless,
they recognized that they weren't actually entering the land. The

(24:16):
land was on the other side of the of the
Jordan River. That's where Israel is today. The only part
of Israel today that actually is not biblical Israel is
a small swath of desert that goes from Beersheba Solf
to the Gulf of a Lot it's just, you know,
it was just there. But other than that, Israel has

(24:38):
fulfilled the Covenant in that way, and they further fulfilled
it in nineteen sixty seven when they finished the conquest
and occupied Jerusalem. And yet you seem to not have
a particularly you don't view this as as a miraculous
element to any of this.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Why not, don't I see? And again I don't expecting
to to uh to agree with my interpretation of things,
but you know, just so you understand where I'm coming from,
and and for the uh, you know, where this this
line of thought like fulfillment theology, right, so not replacement theology,
not dispensationalism, but fulfillment theology where everything is fulfilled in Christ.

(25:19):
It's not replaced in Christ. You know. I see the
you know, kind of zooming out from a macro level perspective,
like the operative question becomes like what was Israel chosen
to do? Right? So we hear this like God's shows
of people, God's peculiar people like throughout the Old Testament.
So then, but not many people kind of I was

(25:39):
from a from a cushions standpoint, not many people kind
of step back and be like, all right, well, what
does that What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Right?

Speaker 2 (25:44):
What does what does it mean to be to be
chosen by God? And for what purpose? And for for
what purpose? And so really all this for again, my
perspective goes back to the Book of Genesis. Like, so,
this whole story starts in the Book of Genesis, chapter three,
verse fifteen, when you have after the Fall in the
Garden of Eden, where you know, Adam and Eve are

(26:06):
getting evicted from Eden, and you know, God tells Satan
that there will be enmity between God's seed between the
serpent seed. So that sets the stage for us, right,
that sets the stage for the redemptive work of what
God was planning to do with mankind. I think that's
what's what makes this story so beautiful is that instead

(26:27):
of just crushing it, squashing it, kicking them out and
killing off humankind and starting over, the whole story. You know,
again from a Christian perspective, from the Old Testament through
that weaving a threat to the New Testament was all
purposed towards God restoring communion with mankind. That's what the
whole purpose of the story was was for God to

(26:47):
to you know, restore that personal communion between God and Man.
And you see this seed, right, so the promise of seed,
that would there would be enmity between the seed of
God on the seed of Satan. You see this pass
throughout the Old Covenant patriarchs and in Uh, you know
Cain and Abel, right, so Abel gets killed by Cain,

(27:10):
and then God gives even Adam an even new son, Seth,
and so the seed is passed to the covenant line
of Seth. You know, as we get down through Noah,
where the seed the remnant is preserved in Noah, and
that seed passes down through Shem. So the you know,
the covenant line passes through Shem, not Ham, Ham's the
curse line, and Jafith has the opportunity to live under

(27:30):
the tents of Shem. And then that eventually leads to
Abram or to Abraham. And so the purpose of that,
from my perspective again, is the whole purpose of all
that was preserving the covenant line that the Messiah would
then pass through that would be used to restore communion
with mankind. So that's where you get the purpose of

(27:52):
Old Testament Israel, the purpose of Abraham, the purpose of Isaac,
the purpose of Jacob, and where it was a spiritual purpose, right,
So it wasn't about Esau, I wasn't about Ishmael, It
wasn't about even the six Sons of Katura. It was
about the promised line and the seed passing through the
covenant line that eventually led to Jesus. And so he
had this passing through King David. And ultimately, you know,

(28:14):
Jesus is born from the line, the kingly line of Judah,
as we're told in Luke chapter one, that you know,
he would take the throne of his father David. So
we see that the dividic covenant was fulfilled in Christ
again and the New Testament. So the whole purpose of Israel,
the whole purpose of all this was to be, if
you want to look at it from a metaphorical standpoint,

(28:35):
to be the garden where the Messiah, the seed of
the Messiah was planted that would then, you know, be
brought forth and restore community, or we restore communion to
all of mankind, not just to you know, the Israelites
of old, not just to the Jewish people, but to
jew and gentile like. And going back to you know,
you mentioned Paul's writings where you know, over and over

(28:58):
again through the books of Galatians and Omens, where he
talks about it's not about jew and gentile, it's not
about male or female. It's not about slaver free. It's
about Christ. It's about faith in Christ. And as from
the Christian's side, we see the promises that were made
to Abraham being fulfilled in Christ. You know, Glatians three
sixteen says that that Abraham was promised seed right singular,

(29:20):
not seeds plural, and that seed was pointing to Jesus Christ.
So the eternality of the covenant, the eternal nature of
the covenant that was given to Abraham was pointing all
along to Christ. It wasn't pointing to physical people, wasn't
pointing to physical descendants. It was the you know, God
chose the nation of Israel to be a light to

(29:40):
the nations. He chose the nation of Israel, you know,
to give them his commands, to give him his his
you know, the the levitical priests of the Temple, worship,
the Tabernacle, all of this stuff that were shadows that
were pointing to the ultimate reality that would be fulfilled
in Christ. So for me, I don't see the nation
and I'm gonna partlo here and to say I don't.

(30:02):
I'm not one of those people that says the Jewish
people have no right to exist, they have no right
to do all this. That's not my stance, right. My
stance is that all the promises to Old Testament Israel
were fulfilled in Christ. So there is no more there
is no more promises to any nations, there's no outstanding
promises to any of that, because Jesus was the fulfillment
of all of that that was promised to the patriarchs.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Again, this is a different interpretation in Jewish text, and
that we see them man to the children plurally Israel
at Sinai, and that it was it was Abram Abram
who became Abraham who would be the father of many nations,
but that the covenant son Isaac would be the father

(30:46):
of the Jewish Israelite nation, and that that israel nation
has continued in every generation of the sense. So we
are convinced that the Covenant that we look at in
the Tourum is the functioning, operating covenant today. And we've

(31:06):
been convinced to that in every generation. It's just that simple.
But I think that Jesus probably so part that way.
We can't Heaven know that, of course, because nobody can
speak for Jesus. But that was the movement, the idea
that this covenant people would you know, become you know,
a spiritual people. And it's a concept that's this understood

(31:29):
by a lot of people, including most Jews. Don't really
understand this, that we're not here to control anything, to
bool over anybody, to physical command. It's actually quite the opposite.
We are commanded to submit to godd We have commanded
to worship God and submit our lives by conducting these

(31:51):
various coming bands and spiritual activities, some of which are
not understandable to the rational person. I mean, there's nothing
rational about cucial art. But yet we're commanded to do this,
and it's too so we can know God and lead
man in that sense. We've never done it fully, and
because we're human beings, we're not by gods. No one is.

(32:16):
But we try to encourage that in us, and I
hope all the nations of the world try to encourage
us in terms of doing that is this. We all
have a mistake in it. Now, whether Jesus is God
in the Messiah, you know, there's a there's an Israeli
joke about that that I might as well tell that.
Tell I'm right, Jesus is it comes back and he's

(32:40):
standing at the top of the Mount of Olives. He's
getting ready to descend food the famous gate and enter
the city of Jerusalem. Is rarely set up a delegation
to meet him. The head of the delegation shakes his
hand and he says, welcome to our country. We want

(33:00):
you to know we have a fabulous banquet for you
at the King David Hotel Tel. All the world leaders
sit down there ready to meet you. The Pope is there,
the President is there, everyone when is here. But before
we go, I just want to ask you a simple question,
if I might, and Jesuss what is that? And he says,
is this your first visit to our country or is
this a return visit? Then we'll find out, you know,

(33:24):
whether or not it was the Jesus of the New
Testament or whether Jesus is coming. But either way, I mean,
we still have this belief that there will be a redeemer.
I mean that is a part of your Judaism. The
rabbis of his day did not believe that he was
the Nosiah. That is just a fact. And I know
that that's aggravating two Christians. I get that. But all

(33:48):
I could say is that we are all believing in
the same God, and we are all believing in the
same moral and ethical precepts that are revealed and I
and that you know there were Jews that have fallen
way away from that. I know that. I mean, to
put it mildly, I get it, but there is still

(34:10):
this remnant in every generation that has continued consciously and
vigorously in terms of working to fulfill that covenant.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
I mean, I think we could both agree that there's
there's people within every religion that don't uphold the tenants
of that religion. Right. You look at America and you
get I'm not just America, but all throughout the world.
For people claim to be Christians, and yeah, their behavior
speaks entirely differently of of you know, what they claim.
And I think that's that's a part of being being

(34:42):
a human, the human experience.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
And there's always been, and since the days of Adam
and Eve, to try to overthrow God by arrogant clique
of people. Wicker Chambers, the former community, the spy who
revealed the the infiltration of Communists into the Rosevelt administration.
He wrote a book called Witness. It was his personal

(35:06):
and biography and it's a brilliant book. I really recommend it.
And he talks about that there since that that Communism,
as it was and it has gotten by different names,
is the world's second oldest religion. It was a religion
of the serpent, the Satanic serpent. Who's to Eve. You
can be like God, you can know all things. You

(35:27):
can you know no good and evil. You can you
can take, you know, essentially overthrow God in heaven if
you partake of the forbid and fruit, which she did
and gave to Adam. And ever since then there has
been a struggle between those who believe in God and
those who were seeking to replace God with a rule
by man. It's in every generation. That's what Communism was about,

(35:50):
so Nazism was about. It's what radicalized Islam is about.
It's what the secular establishment in America frankly is our
and about. You know, this kind of Anglo American world
order movement that's a moral and that wants to create
a world run by so called scientists. In other words,

(36:10):
that they want to remove God and the belief in
God and replace God with some kind of human control,
as if a human clique can know everything and be everything,
just like put the serpents holdieve. So in that sense,
I think that Christians who are who are God fearing,
Jews who are God fearing, that in many ways we

(36:31):
are on the same side, and that we are opposing
this what I will call a conspiracy, and it's happened
in every generation to overthrow God or to try to.
They can't. Of course God is God. But you know
this this attempt to bring us awayway from who we
really are, which is, you know, created in the image

(36:52):
of God. We are not God. We're in the image
of God, and we seek to know God.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
So, yeah, I have a question. This isn't they got
to questions? They actually like me, wanting to uh, to
learn from from you questions? You know, given that the
Sinai Covenant was tied to very specific things, right, so
it was tied to uh, sacrificial atonement is tied to
temple worshipers, tied to how how does that work within

(37:23):
modern day Judaism? Now that that doesn't exist, Like, what's
the what's been the evolution of that over time after
eighty seventy and again just for my own edification, because
I don't generate.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Sure we well, first of all, the temple is not
in the Torah. The temple is not at the temple
came and when David became king, moving to great example,
for that's happening. The sacrifices they've been I guess you'd say,
I don't want to use the word replaced, but they

(37:57):
are part of the ritual slaughter of me to make
a kosher. As far as bringing back the biblical sacrifices
in the temple, that's something that would take a certain
and even back then, it took this that the Jewish

(38:18):
people have to rise to a certain spiritual level to
make that happen. I don't think we're there yet. I
pray that we will be there. It can't be forced.
It's something that's more divine and something more universal. I
would also note that the first Temple was built with
a combination of efforts by King Solomon and Hiram of Tiree,

(38:41):
who was I guess, in by modern counsel we might
say Palestinian. You know he was Sidonian, And that the
second Temple was built because the Persian emperor Cyrus issued
a decree after the Jews had been driven out of Judea,

(39:01):
to go back to your home country and rebuild a temple.
And that decree is actually republished in the Book of Ezra,
which is part of the Tanakh. And that so Cyrus
for that reason is called a messiah because he was
a physical king and he delivered this ability, and that
Ezra we arrived back in jude Injudia, he did rebuild

(39:25):
the temple, and that he purified the people, and that
they had reached a level where they could do that.
Now we are not quite there today. I'm upset and
concerned about Israelis who think that we are, and they're
going to try to put push the envelope because they
should remember that the Temple was built in conjunction with

(39:47):
Muslims in both cases, and if there's going to be
a rebuilding of the Third Temple, it's going to have
to be done with Palestinians Muslims at some level. I
don't know how it's going to happen, Only God knows.
I mean, I think there could be some kind of
a senthedron or something made up of both Jews and

(40:08):
Arabs and that they could work on this over maybe
and and convene and figure it out and maybe give
it a hundred years. I don't know, but so that
that's that's we're not there yet, but yes, ultimately we
do hope to rebuild the temple.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, I apprecire that of curiosity learning point from me.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Okay, you mentioned in a recent tiktokok and I follow
you TikTok page that's hary. I heard of you that
you felt that the Josh the command to take possession
of the land, and you quote from that and that
that was it. It was fulfilled. It's like in the past.

(40:51):
You know, I have to say, with due respect that
doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because sure
he fulfilled it. But then whatever they do packed their
backs and the I mean they fulfilled and so they
could create this commonwealth. I mean, it would be like
saying that I fulfilled the Kosher restrictions in the tour
by having a coachure dinner. Now if I could go

(41:12):
have ham sandwiches, you know what I mean. It's like,
it doesn't you do it because you arrive at a
place and I think the entire tour makes that quite
clear that now is the response to the hard part,
now that if they fulfilled the taking of the land,
now they have to struggle with their souls. They have
to struggle with you know, the nature of God and

(41:34):
the future of man. So I think that that's what's
going on now with Israel.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, and again I respect to the point of view
I it goes for me, it goes back to the
eternality of the covenant with Abraham and my viewpoint of
you know, that eternal promise of the land was pointing
to the New Jerusalem, was pointing to Heaven. I was
not pointing to an earthly physical plot of land and
the promises of the land, right, so there was a

(42:05):
promise of the land given to them. That the promise
has been fulfilled. Because a lot of Christians will say
nowadays where you know, if if Israel doesn't own that land,
then that means, you know, God is a liar and
God could never lie, and God can never break his commands.
And I agree with that, like I you know, I
would never worship a God that would, you know, pull
the rug and lie and break an oath, break a commandment.

(42:27):
And I'm not saying that God did. I'm saying that
that commandment or that covenant and that oath was fulfilled
so by giving the land to Israel, by taking possession
of the land, because ultimately the land was was tied
to the covenant.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Right.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
So in Deuteronomy chapter twenty eight, when it talks about
the blessings that would fall upon Israel if they stayed
in covenant with God, and then the cursings that would
fall in Israel if they, you know, fell out of
covenant with God and turned towards idolatry and wickedness and
all this. One of those prescriptions was was in deuteronams
chapter twenty eight, verse sixty three, was they would lose

(43:04):
the land where they would be scattered amongst the nations
and the land would be taken from them. And so I,
you know, I see the fulfillment in Joshua. And that's
reiterated again in Neemiah chapter nine, or Neamiah is writing
you know well down the road talks about how you
know thou hast performed that command right of giving the
land to Israel. He says that God performed that you know,

(43:28):
fulfilled that that promise through through Joshua. When Joshua took
over the land like that promise fulfilled.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
If I could just interrupt, God didn't give them the land.
I mean they had to physically take the land, even Abraham.
I mean God told him to go to the land,
but Abraham had to go there and physically take possession
of it, as did Joshua, as did Ezra under the Cyrus,
as did David Bengorian for that matter. I mean, nobody's

(43:56):
handing them the land. They fought for the land. They
created a society through their own efforts sacrifice. I mean,
it wasn't something that you know, yes, the tour commands
us to take the land, but it doesn't nobody's handing
it over on a silver platter. I mean, it has
to be earned. It's also a spiritual element too, because

(44:18):
the idea of being saved in Judaism it's very different
than Christianity. You know, we're a religion of works, basically
of mizvahs, of doing good deeds, of trying to create
a better world. And so we are saved because we
earn it. We we you know, we create a life

(44:38):
that is worthy of being saved. It's not just a
matter of faith purely, but being. Having faith in God
is obviously a part of it, a central part of it.
But you know, we have to do good deeds, we
have to live by the moral strictures of the tour
and the actual structures. I mean, it's just a little
bit of a different take on it. I'm not criticizing here.

(45:01):
I'm only trying to, you know, edify the Jewish position
as best I can. And I'm not a rabbi, you know,
I'm I kind of I'm more well fa melanformed than
the average. But I have a lot to learn, a
lot to learn on this.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Yeah, we both you know, it's a continual learning process,
and I think that's what makes it a you know
that that's what makes all of this so life giving.
For me at least, it's a it's a it's a
constant journey. Like every time you get to the point
where you think, a d I've got it down, you know,
there's always something else, right, There's always something more grand
and glorious, And so I'm right there with you. There's
always a there's always more to learn. And I think

(45:35):
for me, just understanding how just utterly sinful I am
as a person and then in need of a savior
and my works, you know, and I mean you know
more than I do in the and they're they're filthy rags, right,
And I'm sure you know the uh, the Hebrew interpretation
of what that actually means, you know, talking about that.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
So that's my perfect and it basically loaded within I
get that, especially at my age. Dan, We're sort of
reaching toward the end of the show, so I wanted
to bring up some current things, if I may. You have.
You have made some rather harsh and hard statements about

(46:19):
Israel in terms of its present conflict. You refer to
the land as Palestine, which I assume means you don't
recognize Israel's function as a Jewish state. You've talked about
you've used the word genocide. You've referred to Israel as Satanic,
as its society is evil. Why take that position? Why

(46:44):
you know it's obviously a conflict, civil war if you will,
between Israel and the Arabs of Jews and the Muslims.
Why take the Muslim side? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (46:55):
For me at least, I know it's like it's complicated,
right for me, I don't separate the Judaism, right, the
Jewish nature, from the political aspect of the government of Israel,
of Benjamin net Yahoo, of all that goes down and
tell people, I don't I don't view that as an
entire reflection on all of Judaism. And and again i'd

(47:18):
love to hear your standpoint on this, this after you
know my remarks. But that's I separate the two. So
I don't look at that as a as a reflection
of Jews. I don't look at that as reflective of Judaism.
I look at that as reflection of the government in Israel.
And for me, I, you know, October sid I condemned both,

(47:38):
you know, hostilities on both sides. I don't want to
see anybody die. I don't want to see Jews die.
I don't want to see you know, Muslims die. I
don't want to see anybody die. And I just think
that the response than the retaliation from October seventh, has
just been so above and beyond that. It's you know,
there's the current reports that there's hundreds of thousands of
people that are missing right, that are unaccounted for, where

(48:00):
they don't know, they don't know where they're at. I
think put two and two together, you can kind of
figure out where there where they probably are, but I don't.
I don't see it as a proportionate reaction. I don't
see it as a civil war. I say it is
shooting fish in a barrel of people that have no
other options and know the choices and no outlets to
you know, to run to. And so I'm not necessarily
taking like the Muslim side of it, right, I'm not

(48:22):
necessarily saying, you know, I'm not saying Hamas is perfect
and there's a freedom fighting and all this stuff. I
you know, I think there's.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
A negative attitude about the Zionist anifics, about the Zionist idea.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah, I think the you know, I and again like
my point of view, and I know you probably vehemently disagree,
and I respect that, but I totally disagree with this
notion of can you know, settlers coming back into land,
kicking out palace Inians that have lived there for you know,
hundreds and thousands of years in some places, and taking
over land. And I just I don't see that as

(49:00):
a as a from a human standpoint, from a humanity standpoint,
I would see it from a religious ad right, I
don't see it as judis and verse first Islam, and
I think a lot of Christians failed to understand there's
so many Christian Palatinians. There's tens of thousands of Palestinians
that are that are Christian. And I've just seen the suffering,

(49:24):
the plight of people at the hands of what I
deemed to be a heavy handed, iron fist of government.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Just it doesn't it doesn't sit well my soul.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Okay, I mean, look, I I I get that. I
would only note that, uh, and I mentioned that I
write about I document this in one of my books,
that the Jewish people have retained presence in that region
for every generation and that a claim to that land
is real. The in the late nineteen in Central there

(50:00):
was an influx of immigrants. To his husband, they used
to be they used to be banned. They'd actually like
pay people to turn the ships around so Jews couldn't
get there. But the Jews started to really make their
way in the mid nineteenth century. They brought European modern
ideas like a technology, government, governance, democracy, all of these

(50:23):
things that were kind of alien to the Muslim and
Arab world at the time, and they created annic dynamic society.
The result was was that palace. Arabs which mine didn't
come into play until the British in nineteen twenty, but
Arabs in the region started to go there because they

(50:43):
wanted to take part in this experience. They wanted to
get jobs. I don't blame them. Before that, it was
not very well populated and the result was conflict. The
Arab countries is twenty four or sovereign Arab countries in
the world. They are oil rich in many cases, they're vast,

(51:05):
They've got brilliant and talented people, They've got mineral resources. Israel,
their claims are modest and proper. It's really a tiny country.
This was stated when he signed the Faisal Whitesman Accords
in nineteen eighteen, and he welcomed back his cousins, the Jews,

(51:29):
to their ancient land, saying that it was modest and
proper and that his only two conditions was that the
Arab minority would have their rights respected and that Muslim
worship places of worship and Christian places of worship would
be respected. Israel has fulfilled that, not perfectly, but to

(51:49):
the best of their ability. I'm not saying it's you know,
completely equal there, but being an Israeli Arab is probably
a better position to be than being an Arab in
most our countries today. And I think that the Jewish
claim there is modest, it's really not out of proportion.

(52:10):
The fact that it has not been accepted by certain
segments of the population, I would argue is based on
Jewis hatred, anti Semitism. It's that simple. That's my position
on it, and that Israel since then has been under
threat and under genocidal threats in every border. It's gotten

(52:33):
a lot better with the abram Accords, with President Trump,
with possibly recognizing Israel, but the threat remains. And I
think that Israel's and is proper and modest simply to
live in peace alongside it's Arab and Muslim neighbors. But

(52:53):
they deal with these attacks and that they respond heavily.
I don't think there's Israel has to apologize to that.
I get the fact that it's morally problematic and that
we suffer morally when we attack back and we fight back,
but that's what I think any sane sovereignation would do
in like circumstances, right, I mean, if you're getting invaded

(53:15):
by people and they're slaughtering your countryside, you hit them
back with everything you have. So that's my position on
a ten.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Again, that's a Jewish person. I respect your point of view.
I just think that from the outside perspective, from the
outside world, it's no. I'm not saying that anti Semitism
doesn't exist, right, I.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Think it does.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
But I think that for myself, right, I'm not anti Semitic.
I don't hate Jews. I don't hate.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
I'm talking about I'm talking about the actual enemies of
Israel that are surging over Gaza. I mean, Gaza could
have become like the Singapore. When Israel evacuated in nineteen
ninety five, money was pouring in from all over the world.
This is beachfront property. Those if you look at Gaza,
those are well to do it. It's a prosperous city.

(54:05):
Instead of investing in a sovereign state, which they were
handed to by the Israelis, they turned it into a
launching pad to attack the State of Israel with missiles
and terra tunnels, and that was the choice they made.
Now Israel's responded, it's sad. I mean, Israel was perfectly
ready to live alongside Gaza and was willing to give more.

(54:25):
But it just hasn't worked that way. I mean, now
they can't leave Hamas in place there because it'll just
be another day for another terrible surgeon, another war. Because
that's the determination, I think.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
And again i'd firmly know your position. I think you
firmly know my position, so there's never really need to
go back and forth. But my other question would be,
can you blame people right if you've grown up in
a system where you're a price? And I'm not at
all making, you know, justifying violence and in the respect,
but I just imagine myself growing up in a place
where you're living in a giant prison, You're living in

(55:00):
place we don't really have much freedom. You don't have
you know, you got to go through checkpoints just to
live your life. And then nowadays, how do you like
a Palsonian child who has seen his whole family blown up,
who with lost his entire family? What do you expect that?
I don't know from an honest question, like for you,
how do you expect that person to ever get to
point like where they just are willing to accept the
normal life.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
I think the children of Palestine were taught to hate
the Jews and fight the Jews at an early age.
If you look at the textbooks and that the checkpoints
are there because of the suicide bombers, I mean Israel was.
They were showing up every weekend in pizza parlors, in restaurants,
in downtown markets and blowing themselves up to kill as
many Jews and Israelis as possible. So Israel had to

(55:43):
build those checkpoints and the wall in order to stop it,
and they did stop it. It disappeared practically like ninety
seven percent. Now they have to deal with hang gliders
flying in over Gaza and dropping with the machine guns
killing people in a rock concert. This is how they've
had to respond, and it's sad to me that they've

(56:03):
had to respond that way. But if the Palestinian Arabs
and the Arab countries want to live in peace of Israel,
they can take that choice. They've been given that option
many times and they've not accepted it. Instead, they want
to destroy Israel, which is a country of seven million people,
about a million of whom are Arab and non Jewish,

(56:24):
and as long as that exists, Israel has, like any
other sovereign nation, has the rights to defend its lives
of its own people. And its own country. They don't
have any Israel doesn't have designs on its neighbors. They
don't want to conquer Jordan or Syria or Egypt. They
want to live in peace alongside their neighbors. It's that
simple anyway. But Dan, let my listeners and viewers know

(56:48):
how they can get your book and where they can
find out more information about you.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Yeah. Well, I definitely want to check out your books
as well. Some mine is published on Amazon called Unmasking,
Say's counterfeit Israel against on a it's on a hatred
against Jews, Jewish people. It's a New Covenant interpretation of
what Israel means under the New Covenant through Jesus' Ministry
on Earth. And yeah, also on TikTok Preacher day five,

(57:17):
I'll follow you back and again I appreac the conversation.
I appreciate you getting a touch and the same here.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
We should stay in touch. We should do it again.
I'll keep following your TikTok and read your book, and
and I want to thank you for joining me. It's
been great talk. Thank you, Thank you so much. Charles.
All right, take care Dan, all right, we'll see you