September 4, 2025 • 49 mins
Ronald Gruner shares how his research—spanning two and a half years—revealed deep divisions within America during the COVID pandemic. From conspiracy theories to the emotional toll on families, his work sheds light on how personal freedoms, death rates, and the economy were all shaped by differing public health policies.
Gruner also explains how doctors, nurses, and communities across the country were deeply impacted by what they witnessed.Betsy contributes a deeply personal perspective, recalling the painful goodbye to her brother over a phone video call. She notes the grief that followed when people did not attend his funeral or visit her mother afterward.
Betsy also shares the story of a funeral director whose work during the pandemic left lasting impressions.The conversation explores long COVID, which continues to puzzle physicians searching for effective treatments.
Gruner emphasizes the importance of seeking information from reputable medical institutions such as Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, and Massachusetts General Hospital.Betsy found COVID WARS to be both informative and compelling, especially the state-by-state demographics that shed light on pandemic outcomes. She highly recommends this book for anyone seeking to understand the profound impact of COVID on American society.
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Gruner also explains how doctors, nurses, and communities across the country were deeply impacted by what they witnessed.Betsy contributes a deeply personal perspective, recalling the painful goodbye to her brother over a phone video call. She notes the grief that followed when people did not attend his funeral or visit her mother afterward.
Betsy also shares the story of a funeral director whose work during the pandemic left lasting impressions.The conversation explores long COVID, which continues to puzzle physicians searching for effective treatments.
Gruner emphasizes the importance of seeking information from reputable medical institutions such as Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, and Massachusetts General Hospital.Betsy found COVID WARS to be both informative and compelling, especially the state-by-state demographics that shed light on pandemic outcomes. She highly recommends this book for anyone seeking to understand the profound impact of COVID on American society.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/chatting-with-betsy--4211847/support.
🎙 Passionate World Talk Radio Network LLC — Where real conversations matter.
📧 Contact us: pwrtalknetwork@gmail.com
🌐 Visit: www.passionateworldtalkradio.com
📲 Follow & share with #PWTRN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, everyone, this is Betsy Worzel, your host of Chatting
with Betsy. I'm Pastia World Talk Radio Network, a subsidiary
of Global Media Network LLC our a mantras to educate, enlighten,
and entertain. The views of the guest may not represent
those of the hosts of the station. And I had
(00:21):
two public service announcements folks before I forget because I
just realized I'll getting near the end of August and
September right around the corner. And September is World Alzheimer's
Awareness Months. Those of us who have been caregivers, those
(00:42):
of us who live with someone who has Alzheimer's, we
don't need a month. We lived it or do live
it every day. If you have any memory concerns at all,
please consult your primary care physician about your concert. And
the other public service announcement is September is also Suicide
(01:06):
Prevention Months. If you are struggling, please contact your primary
care physician for mental health references in your area. And
if you are in crisis, please call the Suicide hotline
nine eight eight. And that's my public service announcements. I
am excited as always about my guest, who is Ronald Grooner.
(01:32):
He is author of COVID Wars, America's Struggle over public
health and personal freedom. Ronald Gruner had a forty year
career as a founder and CEO of three technology companies
during from his business experience, Ronald's published We the Presidents
in twenty twenty two, a presidential history which explores how
(01:56):
the policies of American presidents have affected America and the
world today. Runer has taken a similar approach in COVID Wars.
In his latest book, Gruner discusses how deep divisions within
America during the COVID pandemic affected our nation's death rates,
personal freedoms, and national economy. And I want to welcome
(02:20):
Ronald Grooner to Chinning with BECTA. Welcome Ronald, Well.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Thank you Betsy for the invitation, and I'm looking forward
to our discussion today.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yes, I am too. I did read your book a
while back, so forgive me if I don't remember what
I read. A lot of books were on my show,
but I found your book very interesting. And I know
even in families COVID has caused a lot of distension,
(02:57):
like people stop talking to each other, which I think
is pretty terrible. Myself. It's like, we'll all have a right,
you know, for our to our opinion. But I just
don't understand why people get so I don't. It's I
got a control, Ronald, you know, and how people treat people.
(03:21):
But if I get off the track I wanted to.
I always ask the authors, what motivated you to write
your book?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, frankly, Betsey, it took a while to get motivated
to write a book about COVID. As you pointed out,
I re published my first book, We're the Presidents, in
January of twenty twenty two, and that was a lot
of work, and I was thinking about my next project.
And we had all been through COVID, I had, you had,
everybody had starting in twenty twenty through twenty twenty two,
(03:53):
and I just didn't think I didn't have the energy
I thought at the time to take on a subject
as a complex as COVID. But I had friends and
a number of associates that suggested I should take a
cut at that and look at that and try to
write it in the same I'd like to think objective,
non partisan approach that I took with We the Presidents,
(04:14):
and what really convinced me to write. It was as
I began to do some research, I realized that the
Spanish flu, the Spanish flu of nineteen eighteen, there was
not a book written about that that was really a
definitive discussion of the flu and what cost in the
history and how it evolved until nineteen fifty seven, over
(04:38):
forty years after the flu itself happened. So it took
that long for somebody to write a book. So I thought, well,
we certainly don't wait that long for a COVID, so
maybe it would be worthwhile to try to write an
objective overview of the COVID pandemic shortly after the curred
from the perspective of somebody myself and the people I
talked to and interviewed and read about what they truth.
(05:00):
And that's what motivated me to actually write the book.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
How long did it take you to research to write
this book?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Well, it was about a two and a half year
project to research and write the book, and that was
pretty much full time.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I'm retired.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I retired in twenty fifteen and I began read The
Presidents in twenty seventeen. That was my first book that
took longer, so larger book, but it was about a
two and a half year project.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Well, I think he did an excellent job on a
COVID wars. Ronald. I like the graphs you know that
you have in your book, and you know there is
some really bizarre and I'm sure you've heard rumors. I'm
(05:50):
going to say, rumors, misinformation about the COVID vaccine, and
I'm sure you've heard probably heard it all in writing
your book and researching for your book. I'll tell you
what I heard. And people used to send meself all
the time that there's a tracking device in the vaccine.
(06:11):
Now I'm not saying this, folks that, I'm just saying
that this is what information, misinformation people sent to me.
And did you hear that in of course interview?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Of course I did. I wrote about that on my book.
There's a whole idency. There's a whole chapter in the
book called alternative Facts that deals with three or four
of the major conspiracy theories that occurred during the COVID pandemic,
and one of them was that the vaccine itself was
some kind of development developed by doctor Fauci or Bill
(06:46):
Gates or other nefarious character characters at the global level
to either reduce the population because of overpopulation, or to
sell vaccines or other things.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Of that nature.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And the idea that there was a microprocessors, to any
microscopic microprocesses tracking people through the vaccine was was one
of those one of those conspiracies.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
It was bizarre, very bizarre.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yes, yes, I mean I couldn't believe the misinform not
there's information, the misinformation that was out there. You know
that that can cause uh, infertility, it could cause cancer.
I mean, any new vaccine that comes out you don't
(07:33):
know really the effect side effects for a while. I
would think it would take at least you know, one
or two years, if not more, for people to say,
you know, I had this side of fact or I
had that side effect. But to think there was a
tracking device in the vaccine, that's I just can't even
(07:55):
comprehend that at all.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Well, that was unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I mean, but you know, there still tens of thousands
of people, if not more than believe the Earth is flat.
I mean, that's just unbelievable. And to believe that somehow
there's a tiny electronic device in the vaccines that I mean,
if there were, you could get a microscope, and I mean,
look for it, and if it's not there, then it's
not there. But I tell you, Betsy, people that study
(08:21):
epidemics and pandemics were not surprised that a lot of
these crazy ideas popped up, because it's common during really
severe crises that affect many, many people that people try
to find solutions and ideas as to what's happening, and so.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
These theories pop up. They popped up.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
One of the books I read during my research was
Daniel Dafoe's Diary of a Pandemic in sixteen sixty five
in London, and his uncle had written a diary living
in London in sixteen sixty five when that plague came
through and killed one hundred thousand people, and about sixty
years later later Daniel Defoe, who Robinson Crusoe. Then we
(09:04):
kind of a narrative history of that pandemic, including the
conspiracy theories about where it came from and how it
was affecting people.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
That was not in common.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
The same thing happened in nineteen eighteen. But what was
amplifying the theories that you mentioned and many other theories
was we had cable news and we had social media
just broadcasting that day in and day out and divided
half the nation were a good percentage of the nation
believed many of those theories, including the vaccines were a
(09:35):
conspiracy for various reasons and were killing people not healium.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, yes, I have heard that in you know, I
know there was people where my son goes to socialize.
I think three people died, three or four with his
buddy night group. It was just, you know, a tough time.
(10:03):
And I'll tell you what, Ronald, I don't understand why
people had such a hard time putting on a mask.
I mean, that's all that's asked of you, either you
agree with it or not. You know, a lot of
people sell the mask made that you know, people worse.
You know, you're breathing in germs or whatever. You know,
(10:26):
it's a simple thing to.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Do well, and you became a symbol. Especially, it became
a symbol and people that tended to support the advice
of public health so called experts, and they were experts,
they were doing the best they could. That basically promoted
vaccines and later mask wearing. They were viewed as one
(10:49):
type of American and people that wanted to resist that
and focus more on what they proceived to their own
personal freedoms and did not want to wear a mask,
or socially distanced were another class of America, and that
those two divided America steeply. So it was it more
of a political thing that I think more of a
personal issue. There was a badge of courage, of lack
(11:11):
of courage for those that chose to wear and not
wear a mask.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I used to tell people all the time during Colvid,
I'm the show, and I'll put on a mask. No
one's asking you, like they did in World War Two
to put on a heavy backpack and you know, get
parachuted in enemy territory. That's why they were the greatest generation.
All your ass is to put on a mask. That's it.
(11:38):
And I still see people wear a mask and stores
out out in public, and my son will say, why
are they still wearing a mask? And I said, well,
maybe they have a compromised immune system, or maybe they
live with someone who has a compromised immune system. You
(12:00):
don't know. People still want to wear a mask. That's
their choice.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That right, That's exactly right. It's become a political issue,
which is a shame. But you know, beginning at the
beginning of the pandemic. I talk about this in my book.
There's pretty much a chapter about the beginning itself. You know,
you have to recall that as a pandemic was emerging
(12:26):
in early twenty twenty, the country was very, very divided politically.
President Trump had been impeached, it was an election year.
Tempers were high. There's a lot of angry people politically.
And so when the pandemic, when COVID emerged studying in
February and March of twenty twenty, cable news and I'll
(12:48):
be specific primarily Fox News says, well, this is a
political hoax just to undermine the president and an election year.
COVID is not that serious. As a matter of fact,
is not nearly as serious as the common flu. And
this is documented. That's documented well in my book about that.
And that began to divide people. And that was one aspect,
(13:08):
But another aspect was, in some respects public health doctor Fauchi,
who I think his intentions were absolutely the best, tended
frankly to speak sometimes.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Too much off the cuff.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
So he made a couple of quotes early in the pandemic,
in February saying, at this time, masks are not necessary
but they may be necessary in the future. And so
the media is simply picked up on the phrase masks
are not necessary and began to talk about that. So
that caused a lot of confusion. So when he came
back in the March and April timeframe were saying you
(13:42):
do need to wear a mask, people really did not
Many people did not believe it, but people have used
Betsy that notion of Swiss cheese.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
You've got vaccines, you.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Have social distancing, and you have masks, and.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
None of those are perfect.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Will not keep you from getting COVID or giving COVID,
nor will social distancing. Vaccines go much much further. But
you put the three together, vaccines and social distancing and maths,
you're much much safer and much less likely to get
sit from COVID or pass it on.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I also know, Ronald, that people were at risk. There's
you know, people who were diabetic, overweight, had heart conditions,
compromised already compromised immune systems, were a very high risk
for getting COVID, And we're encouraged to, you know, get
(14:42):
vaccinated for it. I you know, I would encourage people,
you know, what, do what you think is right for
you now my son works on a school bus, so
he had to be vaccinated. I personally, I have a
lot of side effects with different vaccinations, so I chose
(15:06):
not to be vaccinated. It had nothing to do with
politics at all. I just did what I thought was
right for me, and thankfully, not that I know of,
I did not contact COVID. Basically, you know, lived in
the house and just went out, you know, to go
shopping for necessary things. But I think that personally, you know,
(15:31):
people have to do what they feel is right for them.
But if you were at a job and it's a mandatory,
then you really don't have a choice. No, A lot
of people didn't like that, you know, having it mandatory.
What is your feeling about that. I know you probably
have it in your book, but what is your opinion
(15:55):
on that?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
To just say it as simply as possible.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
I think President Biden made a mistake mandating vaccines in
twenty twenty one. I think we should have done as
a country a better job educating people and letting them
understand what the issues were. I think that they tried
their best to do that, but there's a lot of people.
As Biden, for example, was talking about the benefits of vaccines,
(16:21):
of why people should be vaccinated. He other people, basically
because it was politics that was undermining so much of
the communication going on during the pandemic, who were saying,
we don't want to be told about vaccines. We can
make our own decision, we can get our own information,
we don't need the government telling us about this. So
it was a honey politicized time, and that was a factor.
(16:43):
But I think that it was when deaths were spiking
so much in the summer of twenty twenty one, in
September twenty one that Biden, I think, in frustrations, said well,
we're mandating mass for a broad area of the country.
That had a very negative reaction within many areas.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I have to tell you, Ronald, I interviewed emergency room
doctors on my show, and the amount of death and
the nurse and nurses saw was so like I wanted
to out of control they had. They weren't use to that.
(17:26):
It was like being on the battlefield. That they had
mental issues. Their mental health was going into uh, post
traumatic stress because of seeing all the death around them.
(17:48):
Did you cover that in your in your book?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yes, I did, and uh, there was a very good
book written by a nurse who was in the with
ICU in Boston, that one of the major hospitals in Boston.
She did not name the hospital, and I know who
it is, but I'm not going to mention that, but
it's one of the top hospitals in the country. And
she wrote about what that was like on the COVID
(18:15):
floors in the first six or nine months, so the
first year of the pandemic, and how horrible it was
and how people were dying. They really couldn't treat them.
It took a year to really learn how to treat
COVID and just for the symptoms and to help them breathe,
for example. So I did write about that, and I
closed with her comments, which I still find it very emotional.
(18:38):
I closed the book with her comments in that book
about what it was like being in the medical field
and being a you know, a staff nurse trying to
save people's lives. That was a very hard thing and many,
you know, most people weren't exposed to that, so they
don't know what people went through. But if you talk
to people that dealt with people that had COVID and
how sick they were, nobody, none of them deny that
(19:02):
it was real, that it wasn't real, or felt that
if there's anything you could do to keep from getting
COVID and passing it on, you should do that. I
think nine percent of all positions and medical people believe that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It was a very difficult time. I even spoke to
someone a funeral director, and what his experience was, how
they had to put on like he called it almost
like has that, you know, suit to deal with the
(19:39):
to handle the bodies of those who had COVID. It
was really a tough time. And I could tell the
un the one it's on a personal note, my brother,
my older brother, he didn't have COVID, but he died
during COVID and we couldn't visit him, and that really
(20:01):
hurt me. And I was thinking, what was my brother
thinking that nobody was visiting him. And thankfully my mother
and my younger brother were able to be with Bradley
when they knew he was going to die once they
removed him from life support, so he didn't die alone.
(20:22):
But there was a lot of people who and that's
just so emotional, like you couldn't be there to say goodbye,
You couldn't have a proper funeral that you would normally
have had or awake or whatever, you know, memorial service.
Some people had to wait six months to a year afterwards.
(20:44):
That's really difficult. I mean my brother's funeral, there wasn't
that many people. My brother was well known in our hometown,
and a lot of people didn't visit my mom afterwards
because of COVID. That was really such a difficult time.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Well mostly a time.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
It's hopefully a time we'll never have to go through
again if we develop modern medicine and we can avoid
these pandemics that we've had roughly every one hundred, one
hundred and fifty years, the Spanish flu, the London pandemic,
the Russian flu. I mean, those have been epidemics and
pandemics that come typically every century or so, sometimes more often.
(21:32):
But with maybe with modern medicine, like we for example,
have a small pox we've eliminated, and maybe we can
eliminate these kinds of viruses and epidemics that wipe out
small parts of the population like you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Let's hope that happens.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Let's hope we keep spending on science and health at
the government level and the private level to do the
research necessary to make that happen.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yes, and I'll speaking of vaccinations, and I'm sure you
have heard this in the news that the needle is
coming back, which you know, I remember being vaccinated for twice,
once as a child and once in high school because
they said the first vaccination that I received wasn't it
(22:27):
wasn't effective, and they had people in a.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Nice generation vaccine what was better about ten years later,
and so that's by the one you're talking about, the
sauve end. Yeah, a vaccine the Sack and Savannah believe
it was SAQ was the first one.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I know that.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes, that was about ten or twelve years after the
first one came out. It was just the first one
is still very effective if you look at the drop
in smallpox cases, they dropped very steeply in the mid
fifties when that came out.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
But the second one was even better. And that was
the one that was the final one.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yes, and I can't understand, you know, why parents are
not vaccinating their children for measles, you know, And I
know there's a lot of controversy with vaccinations and what
to them. I'm sure you've heard that too, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Well, I mean, but I think that you know, Betsy,
it's been.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
I'm seventy eight years old.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I remember the childhood diseases in the fifties, and I
remember once, very very occasionally, not often at all, children
our age when I was growing up would die of
the measles or some childhood disease for example.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I mean that did happen.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
But nowadays, up until at least recently, very very few
children died of childhood diseases. They've pretty much been totally eradicated.
So we've become a nearer to that saying well, it's
really not an issue. And so that's why people are
looking at say vaccines and saying, well, there's a risk
of autism, or there's a risk of other issues, so
I'm not going to do it, because they don't perceive
(24:10):
the risk that's there if.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
They do get these diseases again.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
So we've become complacent, unfortunately, and of course you've got people,
frankly in my opinion, crackpots, that are talking about all
these issues with vaccines with no proof. Now they do
have a point in some respects, and that there are issues.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
That have developed.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Autism, for example, has become appears to be far far
more prevalent now than it was fifty years ago. Some
people will say it was just misdiagnosed fifty years ago,
as we didn't diagnose it correctly.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I'm not sure that, but.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
There may be things in our environment that are causing
some of these issues that we're dealing with now that
we didn't know about, or didn't think about, or didn't
have sixty years ago. Autism is probably the most common
example we discuss.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yes, yes, that's getting diagno much more now than even
forty years ago. I also wanted to ask you, and
I know you have it in your book, which states
(25:18):
feared did better with the COVID dealing with COVID having
a lower COVID death rate? Was at the Red States
or Blue States?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Well, I did a lot of analysis in that in
the book. Yes, the book has almost one hundred pages
of ABID disease in other words, tables by the state
in the country level regarding that. But to answer your question, unfortunately,
the Red States had a significantly higher death rate than
the Blue States. And you know, I hate to even
(25:52):
talk about the country that way, Red and blue. I mean,
we're so divided down to use that term. But there's nowadays,
it's hard not to talk about what's happening in the
country without dividing us into two segments, red and blue.
But the Red states, even before for the pandemic, had
a lower lifespan than the Blue states. States like, for example,
(26:13):
and I'm just picking two random for example, Massachusetts and Mississippi,
two states to begin with, m when's a blue state,
very blue state, when's a very red state. Their life
expectancy in twenty nineteen before COVID differed by almost six years.
So life expectancy in Massachusetts was in the range of
(26:35):
eighty years or more slightly more and in Mississippi about
seventy four before the pandemic, so they had less health
care coverage, they had greater issues with diabetes and obesity
in Mississippi. They had more maternal depths in Mississippi and
other Red states, and so the population was more vulnerable. Furthermore,
(26:59):
the Red states tended to resist vaccination. The vaccination rates
in the Red states were significantly lower than those in
the blue states. Some of the blue states had vaccination
rates approaching over eighty percent by the end of twenty
twenty one. Certainly the end of twenty twenty two, over
eighty percent in the Blue states, and some of the
(27:22):
Red states had vaccination rates that were barely over fifty
percent at the end of the pandemic. That's a large difference.
And if you analyze the states, and I also analyzed
at the county level, there's over three thousand counties in
the United States, and we're blessed at this point to
have very reliable and solid information statistics about what happens
(27:44):
within counties in terms of economics and health and education.
And I used those statistics to do that analysis. That
extreme between the red counties and the blue counties even
larger than it is between the states. Because even a
very blues state, let's say, even a very red state,
(28:07):
for example like Texas, as major portions namely Houston, Dallas,
Fort Worth for example, that are largely blue in terms
of their politics and their thinking. So there was a
very large disparity. And that's why on the cover of
my book, I've got a picture of the United States
divided down the middle, because they were divided politically, medically,
health wise, death rates in many respects, and it broke
(28:29):
down politically.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yes, yes, it caused a big divide. I have to
tell you this. It's kind of a funny story. I
like to throw those in when I do a show.
My younger brother when he had Thanksgiving that this had
to be in twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two,
(28:56):
he asked people to send on their vaccination cards. He
wanted to make sure they were vaccinated before they went
to his house because he didn't want our mother exposed
to anyone who wasn't vaccinated. So I mean some people,
I mean, that's his house. I understand. I don't drive
(29:18):
out there anyway, so that was fine, But I just thought,
you know, I don't know, do you think is that
go a little overboard or is that just the personal preference.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I guess I don't don't think it's going overboard. If
you know, if my mother had been living during the
COVID pandemic, she would have been in her early eighties
and she had some health conditions, and I would have
said the same thing. I said, you know, she's fragile
health wise, and we don't want people coming in with
(29:50):
a bad code or potentially COVID. And you have a
much less chance of coming in with COVID if you've
been vaccinated. I would have done the same thing. Give
you an example before make a long story short. Before
the COVID pandemic hit, my wife and I had scheduled
a cruise from Vancouver up to Alaska on a cruise
(30:12):
to Alaska on a cruise ship, and of course we
had to delay that because of COVID. So at the
end of twenty twenty one we took that cruise, but
the cruise line still required everybody to get a COVID
test before they would let them go on the ship.
And we had no problem with that, and I think
most people did not. But what was astonishing still I
(30:35):
asked the nurse who gave us the COVID test. I
asked her, how many of these tests you give a day?
She says, we give about I give about forty a day.
That's about five an hour. So they moved people in
very quickly, and I said, well, well, what percentage actually
have COVID today that you test? She said about five percent,
(30:57):
which is amazing. Five percent of the people walking around
a year and a half after COVID began still still
tested positive for COVID, So that was still an issue,
and that's why people like the cruise lines, except in
some states like Florida, where they were not allowed to
do that, but other areas like Washington State and Alaska
(31:18):
required that they found a number of people that had
COVID that would have gone on the ship and could
have caused problems.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah. Yeah, that's that is food for thought. They're around
because you know, you could have COVID or be a carrier.
I guess that, not even realize it. I was. I
have a lung condition and where I cough and some
kind of varying of asthma, and I would get dirty
(31:49):
looks is wherever I went. And one time my son
I read the movie. I would get there you look.
And one time my son and I read the movies.
So when I eat or laugh, I coughed. So I
was clothing and a manager came over and he said,
you know, can you come out? And he goes, you know,
people were complaining that your clothing. Can you leave? I said, no,
(32:11):
I'm not leaving. I don't have COVID. I have asthma.
I have an asthma condition. Now, I said, do you
need a doctor's note? And he goes, no, just you know,
sit by the side, you know when you come, you know,
next and I was. I always had an end seat
and try not to sit next to people. But and
(32:32):
I would try not to be near people because of
my coughing. But they just, you know, judge the conclusion, oh,
you know you have must have COVID and I don't
and what And this was even like after COVID was
it wasn't as much a pandemic at the time. This
fuddy came over to me after a movie. She said,
(32:55):
next time, get up and walk around or leave. It's
not all about you. And I said, for your information,
I have a lung condition. I don't have COVID. I
have a lung condition. Yeah, And you like, I would
never go up to someone and say something you don't
know if they have a condition. When if they have
(33:18):
emphysema or CLPD or god forbid, you know, want cancer
of anything. I would say, you're okay, do you need
a cough? Drib some water? I mean, even when I
do interviews, I cough. I can't help it. And you know,
it's just amazing how people just like jump the gun.
(33:42):
Even with taking my son to doctor and I was coughing.
The doctor said, I you shouldn't be in here. Do
you have COVID. Now you would think you would know
the difference between an asthma coth and a COVID cough.
And I said, I don't have COVID. I have asthma.
You wanted to wear a mask, that's fine. I probably
(34:03):
did have one, But when a cloth and I can't
wear the mask. But you know, there's a lot of
people with different conditions around that. You know, they have
a chronic cough. Thank god, it then't smoke, you know,
in my in my youth. But that's why I really runald.
(34:25):
During the height of COVID, I stayed away from crowds.
You know, in the stores they were only limiting, you know,
a certain amounts of people anyway. But if somebody people
were looking at a particular item, I waited till they left.
I did not want to be.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
We did well, we did, you know, we did the
same thing. I mean, particularly in twenty twenty, the first
year of COVID. I mean, most people, uh uh, if
if they were fortunately they could work at home productively,
they were.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Home most of the most of the time.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And when you go out at the grocery store, you
would tend to I mean, why would you stand next
to five or six people if one of them might
have COVID. So I think people tended to do that,
keep the distance, so to speak. But it was a
difficult time and there was a lot of people that
he didn't quite know how to behave or what to do,
and so many people were just scared. I've lost a
(35:28):
couple of no family but friends to COVID. And I
know one person that got long COVID. It's set him
back eighteen months and he's still recovering from that. That's
been horrible for him. It's caused him a serious heart problem.
My arcotitis appears to be and that was a bad situation.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yes, there's I interviewed someone right at the beginning of COVID,
a pharmacist, and that had it be twenty only twenty one,
because they're right after my brother died. And I asked
the pharmacists, you know, are they going to tweak the
vaccination every year, which now I think they are doing
(36:12):
their you know, tweak it, just like the flu vaccination
and the long COVID. A lot of people are having
a difficulty with the long term effects of having COVID.
I guess that depending on how severe you had COVID
depends on your long term. You know, if you were
(36:35):
on a respirator, you probably are at more risk of
having more problems the difficulties after you becover.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Although I know people that got very, very sick and
actually we're on a respirator and once they got well,
they were fine. No, no aspects of long COVID all oh.
I think I can think of several people that were
quite ill and recovered completely. But I know one person
that got a kiss the COVID and went away after
(37:10):
about ten days and was okay, appeared to be okay,
and then several weeks later began to get various symptoms
and particularly a heart condition, and that's why it has
set him back for almost eighteen months now. And it
came kind of out of the blue, and they diagnosed
that as having been related to COVID, because you know,
(37:32):
the COVID virus gets all through your body and THENT
your heart system and kind of clogs up parts of
your heart and your body, and that's causing that kind.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Of a problem.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
The other thing about COVID I mentioned in my book
My bigg Problem long COVID. Long COVID is not just
one thing I mean long COVID is how your body's
been affected after COVID. It might be a heart condition,
it might be a liver condition, it might be a pancrease,
it might be mental fogging. So there's no specific symptom
(38:03):
for long COVID. It's just a set of problems that
are almost random in terms of how they might develop
on a personal basis after COVID. So doctors are having
a very hard time treating it because there's no single treatment.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yes, yes, I have heard that. And everyone's different. Everyone's
body reacts different to executting, you know, illness, you know,
just like but everyone responds different with vaccinations. You know,
somebody may not have any side effects, somebody might have
(38:41):
side effects. I recommend if you have any type of vaccination,
you have any side effect, you need to contact your
primary care physician. You need to report it, and you
can also probably report it to drug administration. They like
to know about the you know, side effects. What challenges, Ronald,
(39:06):
did you faith in researching and writing about such a
polarizing topic.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
That's a good question. I wouldn't say I had I
mean really challenges. I mean there was a lot of
data where America is blessed with having a government that
provides a lot of data for people that want to
use it. I mean, the internal revenue statistics are available,
public health information is available with the CDC, crime statistics
(39:40):
are available.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
I'm an engineer.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I spent my life as an engineer, that was my career,
and later as in management technical management, so I tend
to be kind of a numbers guy. For beveror worse,
I'm kind of a numbers guy. I enjoy that, and
I would put together analysis, typically just based on spreadsheets
that would.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Do we call correlation analyzing.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
For example, Let's just take a simple example where we
take mistates and we have two databases on the States.
One is vaccination rates and one is say, death rates
from COVID, and you can compare the two and just
see what the sensitivity is in terms of what the
percentage of people die based on what percentage of vaccinations
(40:23):
of particular county has. And that was the kind of
thing I did for two and a half years that
I wind up using in the book. I guess if
I had any challenges when you first go into something
like that, Betsy, you're not really sure exactly what questions
to ask and what kind of quote research or data
(40:44):
analysis to do. So you start with something that seems
obvious and you learn a little bit from that, and
then that raises other questions, and that raises other questions.
It kind of takes you down a long, long path
about how much data analysis you actually want to do,
because you do learn about what these sensitivities are and
what you really want to focus on as you proceed,
(41:05):
and you could do that, you know, I could continue,
know I could basically continue another two years to do
analysis and working on revising that book. And so you
have to know kind of when okay, I've reached the
ninety percent level where I think anymore if it's only
going to yield about ten percent more benefit to try
to put an arbitrary number around it. But that's that's
(41:25):
a challenge in doing analysis and writing a book is
kind of annoying when to quit because if you ask
any author, and I know you've spoken to many, and
they'll tell you, I mean, you write a chapter or
even a paragraph that you think is in very good condition,
you set it aside for two days, you came back,
and you make it. And that's just you see things
or how did I do though, I could make this better.
(41:47):
I'm not talking about spelling errors. I'm just talking about
just improving the language and how you present the ideas.
And that's a challenge in writing.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Well, I'll tell you, I really have a new appreciation
for writers since doing my show, because you know, we
take so much for granted, you know, picking up a
book reading it. But if people would realize the research
out goes into a book. I like asking people about
their writing a process. It's just fascinating to me. And
(42:21):
I found Covid Wars your book very informative, very interesting,
And you know, when I received the book, I was like, yeah,
you know, I don't know if I'm going to be
waking this book, but I did. I did like it,
and I highly recommend for people to read it. Why
(42:42):
would you want the readers to take away from this book, Ronald,
After you know, COVID's kind of calming down now, we
can only hope. I think it is.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
So a couple of thoughts. The first thing is there's
a lot of uncertainty and suspicion about our medical systems
and public health and who to believe in, who not
to believe and what I suggest to people, is I
point out that we're blessed in the United States with
having some of the best medical institutions in the world.
(43:18):
We have the Male Clinic, for example, in Minnesota and
Arizona and Florida.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
We have the Cleveland Clinic.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
We have Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, we have Stanford.
We have great hospitals in Houston. So, and I'm trying
to be candid with people. If you don't trust public
health facilities in the government or the pharmaceutical companies, go
to these major hospitals and they have websites and they
provide valuable information that I think is the best information available.
(43:46):
So if you have doubts about vaccines, do your research,
not with with individuals or writers or social media. Go
to the big hospitals and their websites and see what.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
They say about that.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
And because institutions like Johns Hopkins, we're blessed with that.
So that's the first, the first advice I give to people,
God forbid, if this were to come up again, or
if they have any questions medical questions, that's the place
I would start.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
That's a very good advice. And I'll go to a
source that you know you can trust enough confidence. And
I mean at some point, Ronald, you know people say
I don't trust doctors, I don't trust the healthcare system.
Well you gotta trust someone you know some information, right,
(44:37):
I mean it can always be a skeptic. I can't
tell skeptical about things. You know, go to your teaching hospital.
That's an excellent the Mayo Clinics, just like you mentioned
the hospitals that you know, John Hopkins. These are major
hoth institutions that have been around for many, many, many years.
(44:58):
And if you can't trust with and that of those
to get it right, that's correct.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
People come from all over the world to go to
these institutions. That's right before COVID and today and during COVID,
and so we're blessed with that.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
That's the place to go.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
I would not say if you want to really, you know,
answer questions about COVID, I mean, read my book, but
my book is nothing compared to what's available with these
top medical institutions.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
And they're the experts.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
They're the experts, and that's the look you have questions
about do the vaccines really work?
Speaker 3 (45:29):
They're the place to go.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yes, yes, I agree, wild where can people purchase your book,
COVID Wars America's Struggle of our public health and personal freedom?
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Well, it's available in book bookstores around the country. If
the bookstore does not have that, they can order that,
they'll know how to do that, and they can even
get the book delivered to the bookstore in you know,
typically three or four days. So that's one place if
you shop in bookstores. And of course it's available on
online in many different sites. Amazon obviously it is available
(46:07):
at if you just if you just google covid Wars
Ronald Groner, lots of sources will pop up after if
you do a search. But bookstores, Amazon, Apple, if you
like audio for example, even Walmart places like that.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Online, I'll have it.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
And how can people connect with you?
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Give it?
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Well, that's easy, that's easy. If they'd like to chat
with me over email, I'm happy to do that. My
website is Ronaldgrooner dot com, Ronaldgrooner dot com. My name
uh and there's a contact form on that that if
they can basically raise a question or contact me through that,
(46:51):
and I respond to all emails. I don't get I
don't get thousands of emails, but I get enough that
I try to respond to all of them.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Oh that's great. I haven't such a pleasure talking to you, Ronald.
I hope your book does well and I think people
should read it. I really recommend reading this book, folks
that I'm going to say it again, COVID wars America,
struggle over public health and personal freedom. Ronald Grooner and
(47:21):
you spoke the last name g or you n E R.
And I enjoyed Johnny with you today and thank you
for coming on my show. You're writing your book and
talking with me today. If I enjoyed Johnny with you.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Well, Bethie, thank yous once again, thanks for the invitation.
It was a very interesting hour for me too, so
I enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
You are welcome. And folks, all the information about Ronald
of Groner will be in the blog that Genie White,
who's the station manager, writes, and Genie produces the show.
And I want to thank Lola Coldwell, who's CEO of
Pastoral Talk Radio Network makes this all possible. And I
want to thank you the listeners. Please share the show
(48:10):
to help people. We need to learn about what went
on during COVID, what we can do to make things better.
God forbid if we have another pandemic. And this is
a very interesting, very informative book that I highly recommend.
And if you don't already subscribe to Chatting with Betty,
please do so. It's for free. I'm on Amazon Music, Spotify, Spreaker,
(48:34):
I Heart, to name a few, and you could program
Alexa to Chatting with Betsy if you have Alexa. And
I also want to let you know you could follow
me on Facebook betsee Worzel w or z e l
and you could take a glimpse of my personal life
(48:55):
on Facebook and see what I am all about. Really,
what you hear with me on the show is what
you'll see on Facebook. I'm just just being there all
the time. And I want to thank you all for
listening and spending time with me today. This is Betsy
Worthal your host of Chutney with Betsy Pastor Roll Talk
(49:18):
Radio Network, a subsidiary of Global Media Network LLC. And
I always say at the end of my show, in
a world that you could be anything, please be kind
and shine your life right because we need it now
more than ever before. Be sick out their folks till
I chat with you again.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Bye now,
Hello, everyone, this is Betsy Worzel, your host of Chatting
with Betsy. I'm Pastia World Talk Radio Network, a subsidiary
of Global Media Network LLC our a mantras to educate, enlighten,
and entertain. The views of the guest may not represent
those of the hosts of the station. And I had
(00:21):
two public service announcements folks before I forget because I
just realized I'll getting near the end of August and
September right around the corner. And September is World Alzheimer's
Awareness Months. Those of us who have been caregivers, those
(00:42):
of us who live with someone who has Alzheimer's, we
don't need a month. We lived it or do live
it every day. If you have any memory concerns at all,
please consult your primary care physician about your concert. And
the other public service announcement is September is also Suicide
(01:06):
Prevention Months. If you are struggling, please contact your primary
care physician for mental health references in your area. And
if you are in crisis, please call the Suicide hotline
nine eight eight. And that's my public service announcements. I
am excited as always about my guest, who is Ronald Grooner.
(01:32):
He is author of COVID Wars, America's Struggle over public
health and personal freedom. Ronald Gruner had a forty year
career as a founder and CEO of three technology companies
during from his business experience, Ronald's published We the Presidents
in twenty twenty two, a presidential history which explores how
(01:56):
the policies of American presidents have affected America and the
world today. Runer has taken a similar approach in COVID Wars.
In his latest book, Gruner discusses how deep divisions within
America during the COVID pandemic affected our nation's death rates,
personal freedoms, and national economy. And I want to welcome
(02:20):
Ronald Grooner to Chinning with BECTA. Welcome Ronald, Well.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Thank you Betsy for the invitation, and I'm looking forward
to our discussion today.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yes, I am too. I did read your book a
while back, so forgive me if I don't remember what
I read. A lot of books were on my show,
but I found your book very interesting. And I know
even in families COVID has caused a lot of distension,
(02:57):
like people stop talking to each other, which I think
is pretty terrible. Myself. It's like, we'll all have a right,
you know, for our to our opinion. But I just
don't understand why people get so I don't. It's I
got a control, Ronald, you know, and how people treat people.
(03:21):
But if I get off the track I wanted to.
I always ask the authors, what motivated you to write
your book?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, frankly, Betsey, it took a while to get motivated
to write a book about COVID. As you pointed out,
I re published my first book, We're the Presidents, in
January of twenty twenty two, and that was a lot
of work, and I was thinking about my next project.
And we had all been through COVID, I had, you had,
everybody had starting in twenty twenty through twenty twenty two,
(03:53):
and I just didn't think I didn't have the energy
I thought at the time to take on a subject
as a complex as COVID. But I had friends and
a number of associates that suggested I should take a
cut at that and look at that and try to
write it in the same I'd like to think objective,
non partisan approach that I took with We the Presidents,
(04:14):
and what really convinced me to write. It was as
I began to do some research, I realized that the
Spanish flu, the Spanish flu of nineteen eighteen, there was
not a book written about that that was really a
definitive discussion of the flu and what cost in the
history and how it evolved until nineteen fifty seven, over
(04:38):
forty years after the flu itself happened. So it took
that long for somebody to write a book. So I thought, well,
we certainly don't wait that long for a COVID, so
maybe it would be worthwhile to try to write an
objective overview of the COVID pandemic shortly after the curred
from the perspective of somebody myself and the people I
talked to and interviewed and read about what they truth.
(05:00):
And that's what motivated me to actually write the book.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
How long did it take you to research to write
this book?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Well, it was about a two and a half year
project to research and write the book, and that was
pretty much full time.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I'm retired.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
I retired in twenty fifteen and I began read The
Presidents in twenty seventeen. That was my first book that
took longer, so larger book, but it was about a
two and a half year project.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Well, I think he did an excellent job on a
COVID wars. Ronald. I like the graphs you know that
you have in your book, and you know there is
some really bizarre and I'm sure you've heard rumors. I'm
(05:50):
going to say, rumors, misinformation about the COVID vaccine, and
I'm sure you've heard probably heard it all in writing
your book and researching for your book. I'll tell you
what I heard. And people used to send meself all
the time that there's a tracking device in the vaccine.
(06:11):
Now I'm not saying this, folks that, I'm just saying
that this is what information, misinformation people sent to me.
And did you hear that in of course interview?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Of course I did. I wrote about that on my book.
There's a whole idency. There's a whole chapter in the
book called alternative Facts that deals with three or four
of the major conspiracy theories that occurred during the COVID pandemic,
and one of them was that the vaccine itself was
some kind of development developed by doctor Fauci or Bill
(06:46):
Gates or other nefarious character characters at the global level
to either reduce the population because of overpopulation, or to
sell vaccines or other things.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Of that nature.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And the idea that there was a microprocessors, to any
microscopic microprocesses tracking people through the vaccine was was one
of those one of those conspiracies.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
It was bizarre, very bizarre.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yes, yes, I mean I couldn't believe the misinform not
there's information, the misinformation that was out there. You know
that that can cause uh, infertility, it could cause cancer.
I mean, any new vaccine that comes out you don't
(07:33):
know really the effect side effects for a while. I
would think it would take at least you know, one
or two years, if not more, for people to say,
you know, I had this side of fact or I
had that side effect. But to think there was a
tracking device in the vaccine, that's I just can't even
(07:55):
comprehend that at all.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Well, that was unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I mean, but you know, there still tens of thousands
of people, if not more than believe the Earth is flat.
I mean, that's just unbelievable. And to believe that somehow
there's a tiny electronic device in the vaccines that I mean,
if there were, you could get a microscope, and I mean,
look for it, and if it's not there, then it's
not there. But I tell you, Betsy, people that study
(08:21):
epidemics and pandemics were not surprised that a lot of
these crazy ideas popped up, because it's common during really
severe crises that affect many, many people that people try
to find solutions and ideas as to what's happening, and so.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
These theories pop up. They popped up.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
One of the books I read during my research was
Daniel Dafoe's Diary of a Pandemic in sixteen sixty five
in London, and his uncle had written a diary living
in London in sixteen sixty five when that plague came
through and killed one hundred thousand people, and about sixty
years later later Daniel Defoe, who Robinson Crusoe. Then we
(09:04):
kind of a narrative history of that pandemic, including the
conspiracy theories about where it came from and how it
was affecting people.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
That was not in common.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
The same thing happened in nineteen eighteen. But what was
amplifying the theories that you mentioned and many other theories
was we had cable news and we had social media
just broadcasting that day in and day out and divided
half the nation were a good percentage of the nation
believed many of those theories, including the vaccines were a
(09:35):
conspiracy for various reasons and were killing people not healium.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, yes, I have heard that in you know, I
know there was people where my son goes to socialize.
I think three people died, three or four with his
buddy night group. It was just, you know, a tough time.
(10:03):
And I'll tell you what, Ronald, I don't understand why
people had such a hard time putting on a mask.
I mean, that's all that's asked of you, either you
agree with it or not. You know, a lot of
people sell the mask made that you know, people worse.
You know, you're breathing in germs or whatever. You know,
(10:26):
it's a simple thing to.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Do well, and you became a symbol. Especially, it became
a symbol and people that tended to support the advice
of public health so called experts, and they were experts,
they were doing the best they could. That basically promoted
vaccines and later mask wearing. They were viewed as one
(10:49):
type of American and people that wanted to resist that
and focus more on what they proceived to their own
personal freedoms and did not want to wear a mask,
or socially distanced were another class of America, and that
those two divided America steeply. So it was it more
of a political thing that I think more of a
personal issue. There was a badge of courage, of lack
(11:11):
of courage for those that chose to wear and not
wear a mask.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I used to tell people all the time during Colvid,
I'm the show, and I'll put on a mask. No
one's asking you, like they did in World War Two
to put on a heavy backpack and you know, get
parachuted in enemy territory. That's why they were the greatest generation.
All your ass is to put on a mask. That's it.
(11:38):
And I still see people wear a mask and stores
out out in public, and my son will say, why
are they still wearing a mask? And I said, well,
maybe they have a compromised immune system, or maybe they
live with someone who has a compromised immune system. You
(12:00):
don't know. People still want to wear a mask. That's
their choice.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That right, That's exactly right. It's become a political issue,
which is a shame. But you know, beginning at the
beginning of the pandemic. I talk about this in my book.
There's pretty much a chapter about the beginning itself. You know,
you have to recall that as a pandemic was emerging
(12:26):
in early twenty twenty, the country was very, very divided politically.
President Trump had been impeached, it was an election year.
Tempers were high. There's a lot of angry people politically.
And so when the pandemic, when COVID emerged studying in
February and March of twenty twenty, cable news and I'll
(12:48):
be specific primarily Fox News says, well, this is a
political hoax just to undermine the president and an election year.
COVID is not that serious. As a matter of fact,
is not nearly as serious as the common flu. And
this is documented. That's documented well in my book about that.
And that began to divide people. And that was one aspect,
(13:08):
But another aspect was, in some respects public health doctor Fauchi,
who I think his intentions were absolutely the best, tended
frankly to speak sometimes.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Too much off the cuff.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
So he made a couple of quotes early in the pandemic,
in February saying, at this time, masks are not necessary
but they may be necessary in the future. And so
the media is simply picked up on the phrase masks
are not necessary and began to talk about that. So
that caused a lot of confusion. So when he came
back in the March and April timeframe were saying you
(13:42):
do need to wear a mask, people really did not
Many people did not believe it, but people have used
Betsy that notion of Swiss cheese.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
You've got vaccines, you.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Have social distancing, and you have masks, and.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
None of those are perfect.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Will not keep you from getting COVID or giving COVID,
nor will social distancing. Vaccines go much much further. But
you put the three together, vaccines and social distancing and maths,
you're much much safer and much less likely to get
sit from COVID or pass it on.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I also know, Ronald, that people were at risk. There's
you know, people who were diabetic, overweight, had heart conditions,
compromised already compromised immune systems, were a very high risk
for getting COVID, And we're encouraged to, you know, get
(14:42):
vaccinated for it. I you know, I would encourage people,
you know, what, do what you think is right for
you now my son works on a school bus, so
he had to be vaccinated. I personally, I have a
lot of side effects with different vaccinations, so I chose
(15:06):
not to be vaccinated. It had nothing to do with
politics at all. I just did what I thought was
right for me, and thankfully, not that I know of,
I did not contact COVID. Basically, you know, lived in
the house and just went out, you know, to go
shopping for necessary things. But I think that personally, you know,
(15:31):
people have to do what they feel is right for them.
But if you were at a job and it's a mandatory,
then you really don't have a choice. No, A lot
of people didn't like that, you know, having it mandatory.
What is your feeling about that. I know you probably
have it in your book, but what is your opinion
(15:55):
on that?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
To just say it as simply as possible.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
I think President Biden made a mistake mandating vaccines in
twenty twenty one. I think we should have done as
a country a better job educating people and letting them
understand what the issues were. I think that they tried
their best to do that, but there's a lot of people.
As Biden, for example, was talking about the benefits of vaccines,
(16:21):
of why people should be vaccinated. He other people, basically
because it was politics that was undermining so much of
the communication going on during the pandemic, who were saying,
we don't want to be told about vaccines. We can
make our own decision, we can get our own information,
we don't need the government telling us about this. So
it was a honey politicized time, and that was a factor.
(16:43):
But I think that it was when deaths were spiking
so much in the summer of twenty twenty one, in
September twenty one that Biden, I think, in frustrations, said well,
we're mandating mass for a broad area of the country.
That had a very negative reaction within many areas.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I have to tell you, Ronald, I interviewed emergency room
doctors on my show, and the amount of death and
the nurse and nurses saw was so like I wanted
to out of control they had. They weren't use to that.
(17:26):
It was like being on the battlefield. That they had
mental issues. Their mental health was going into uh, post
traumatic stress because of seeing all the death around them.
(17:48):
Did you cover that in your in your book?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yes, I did, and uh, there was a very good
book written by a nurse who was in the with
ICU in Boston, that one of the major hospitals in Boston.
She did not name the hospital, and I know who
it is, but I'm not going to mention that, but
it's one of the top hospitals in the country. And
she wrote about what that was like on the COVID
(18:15):
floors in the first six or nine months, so the
first year of the pandemic, and how horrible it was
and how people were dying. They really couldn't treat them.
It took a year to really learn how to treat
COVID and just for the symptoms and to help them breathe,
for example. So I did write about that, and I
closed with her comments, which I still find it very emotional.
(18:38):
I closed the book with her comments in that book
about what it was like being in the medical field
and being a you know, a staff nurse trying to
save people's lives. That was a very hard thing and many,
you know, most people weren't exposed to that, so they
don't know what people went through. But if you talk
to people that dealt with people that had COVID and
how sick they were, nobody, none of them deny that
(19:02):
it was real, that it wasn't real, or felt that
if there's anything you could do to keep from getting
COVID and passing it on, you should do that. I
think nine percent of all positions and medical people believe that.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It was a very difficult time. I even spoke to
someone a funeral director, and what his experience was, how
they had to put on like he called it almost
like has that, you know, suit to deal with the
(19:39):
to handle the bodies of those who had COVID. It
was really a tough time. And I could tell the
un the one it's on a personal note, my brother,
my older brother, he didn't have COVID, but he died
during COVID and we couldn't visit him, and that really
(20:01):
hurt me. And I was thinking, what was my brother
thinking that nobody was visiting him. And thankfully my mother
and my younger brother were able to be with Bradley
when they knew he was going to die once they
removed him from life support, so he didn't die alone.
(20:22):
But there was a lot of people who and that's
just so emotional, like you couldn't be there to say goodbye,
You couldn't have a proper funeral that you would normally
have had or awake or whatever, you know, memorial service.
Some people had to wait six months to a year afterwards.
(20:44):
That's really difficult. I mean my brother's funeral, there wasn't
that many people. My brother was well known in our hometown,
and a lot of people didn't visit my mom afterwards
because of COVID. That was really such a difficult time.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Well mostly a time.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
It's hopefully a time we'll never have to go through
again if we develop modern medicine and we can avoid
these pandemics that we've had roughly every one hundred, one
hundred and fifty years, the Spanish flu, the London pandemic,
the Russian flu. I mean, those have been epidemics and
pandemics that come typically every century or so, sometimes more often.
(21:32):
But with maybe with modern medicine, like we for example,
have a small pox we've eliminated, and maybe we can
eliminate these kinds of viruses and epidemics that wipe out
small parts of the population like you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Let's hope that happens.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Let's hope we keep spending on science and health at
the government level and the private level to do the
research necessary to make that happen.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yes, and I'll speaking of vaccinations, and I'm sure you
have heard this in the news that the needle is
coming back, which you know, I remember being vaccinated for twice,
once as a child and once in high school because
they said the first vaccination that I received wasn't it
(22:27):
wasn't effective, and they had people in a.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Nice generation vaccine what was better about ten years later,
and so that's by the one you're talking about, the
sauve end. Yeah, a vaccine the Sack and Savannah believe
it was SAQ was the first one.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I know that.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yes, that was about ten or twelve years after the
first one came out. It was just the first one
is still very effective if you look at the drop
in smallpox cases, they dropped very steeply in the mid
fifties when that came out.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
But the second one was even better. And that was
the one that was the final one.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yes, and I can't understand, you know, why parents are
not vaccinating their children for measles, you know, And I
know there's a lot of controversy with vaccinations and what
to them. I'm sure you've heard that too, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Well, I mean, but I think that you know, Betsy,
it's been.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
I'm seventy eight years old.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I remember the childhood diseases in the fifties, and I
remember once, very very occasionally, not often at all, children
our age when I was growing up would die of
the measles or some childhood disease for example.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I mean that did happen.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
But nowadays, up until at least recently, very very few
children died of childhood diseases. They've pretty much been totally eradicated.
So we've become a nearer to that saying well, it's
really not an issue. And so that's why people are
looking at say vaccines and saying, well, there's a risk
of autism, or there's a risk of other issues, so
I'm not going to do it, because they don't perceive
(24:10):
the risk that's there if.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
They do get these diseases again.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
So we've become complacent, unfortunately, and of course you've got people,
frankly in my opinion, crackpots, that are talking about all
these issues with vaccines with no proof. Now they do
have a point in some respects, and that there are issues.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
That have developed.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Autism, for example, has become appears to be far far
more prevalent now than it was fifty years ago. Some
people will say it was just misdiagnosed fifty years ago,
as we didn't diagnose it correctly.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I'm not sure that, but.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
There may be things in our environment that are causing
some of these issues that we're dealing with now that
we didn't know about, or didn't think about, or didn't
have sixty years ago. Autism is probably the most common
example we discuss.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yes, yes, that's getting diagno much more now than even
forty years ago. I also wanted to ask you, and
I know you have it in your book, which states
(25:18):
feared did better with the COVID dealing with COVID having
a lower COVID death rate? Was at the Red States
or Blue States?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Well, I did a lot of analysis in that in
the book. Yes, the book has almost one hundred pages
of ABID disease in other words, tables by the state
in the country level regarding that. But to answer your question, unfortunately,
the Red States had a significantly higher death rate than
the Blue States. And you know, I hate to even
(25:52):
talk about the country that way, Red and blue. I mean,
we're so divided down to use that term. But there's nowadays,
it's hard not to talk about what's happening in the
country without dividing us into two segments, red and blue.
But the Red states, even before for the pandemic, had
a lower lifespan than the Blue states. States like, for example,
(26:13):
and I'm just picking two random for example, Massachusetts and Mississippi,
two states to begin with, m when's a blue state,
very blue state, when's a very red state. Their life
expectancy in twenty nineteen before COVID differed by almost six years.
So life expectancy in Massachusetts was in the range of
(26:35):
eighty years or more slightly more and in Mississippi about
seventy four before the pandemic, so they had less health
care coverage, they had greater issues with diabetes and obesity
in Mississippi. They had more maternal depths in Mississippi and
other Red states, and so the population was more vulnerable. Furthermore,
(26:59):
the Red states tended to resist vaccination. The vaccination rates
in the Red states were significantly lower than those in
the blue states. Some of the blue states had vaccination
rates approaching over eighty percent by the end of twenty
twenty one. Certainly the end of twenty twenty two, over
eighty percent in the Blue states, and some of the
(27:22):
Red states had vaccination rates that were barely over fifty
percent at the end of the pandemic. That's a large difference.
And if you analyze the states, and I also analyzed
at the county level, there's over three thousand counties in
the United States, and we're blessed at this point to
have very reliable and solid information statistics about what happens
(27:44):
within counties in terms of economics and health and education.
And I used those statistics to do that analysis. That
extreme between the red counties and the blue counties even
larger than it is between the states. Because even a
very blues state, let's say, even a very red state,
(28:07):
for example like Texas, as major portions namely Houston, Dallas,
Fort Worth for example, that are largely blue in terms
of their politics and their thinking. So there was a
very large disparity. And that's why on the cover of
my book, I've got a picture of the United States
divided down the middle, because they were divided politically, medically,
health wise, death rates in many respects, and it broke
(28:29):
down politically.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yes, yes, it caused a big divide. I have to
tell you this. It's kind of a funny story. I
like to throw those in when I do a show.
My younger brother when he had Thanksgiving that this had
to be in twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two,
(28:56):
he asked people to send on their vaccination cards. He
wanted to make sure they were vaccinated before they went
to his house because he didn't want our mother exposed
to anyone who wasn't vaccinated. So I mean some people,
I mean, that's his house. I understand. I don't drive
(29:18):
out there anyway, so that was fine, But I just thought,
you know, I don't know, do you think is that
go a little overboard or is that just the personal preference.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I guess I don't don't think it's going overboard. If
you know, if my mother had been living during the
COVID pandemic, she would have been in her early eighties
and she had some health conditions, and I would have
said the same thing. I said, you know, she's fragile
health wise, and we don't want people coming in with
(29:50):
a bad code or potentially COVID. And you have a
much less chance of coming in with COVID if you've
been vaccinated. I would have done the same thing. Give
you an example before make a long story short. Before
the COVID pandemic hit, my wife and I had scheduled
a cruise from Vancouver up to Alaska on a cruise
(30:12):
to Alaska on a cruise ship, and of course we
had to delay that because of COVID. So at the
end of twenty twenty one we took that cruise, but
the cruise line still required everybody to get a COVID
test before they would let them go on the ship.
And we had no problem with that, and I think
most people did not. But what was astonishing still I
(30:35):
asked the nurse who gave us the COVID test. I
asked her, how many of these tests you give a day?
She says, we give about I give about forty a day.
That's about five an hour. So they moved people in
very quickly, and I said, well, well, what percentage actually
have COVID today that you test? She said about five percent,
(30:57):
which is amazing. Five percent of the people walking around
a year and a half after COVID began still still
tested positive for COVID, So that was still an issue,
and that's why people like the cruise lines, except in
some states like Florida, where they were not allowed to
do that, but other areas like Washington State and Alaska
(31:18):
required that they found a number of people that had
COVID that would have gone on the ship and could
have caused problems.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Yeah. Yeah, that's that is food for thought. They're around
because you know, you could have COVID or be a carrier.
I guess that, not even realize it. I was. I
have a lung condition and where I cough and some
kind of varying of asthma, and I would get dirty
(31:49):
looks is wherever I went. And one time my son
I read the movie. I would get there you look.
And one time my son and I read the movies.
So when I eat or laugh, I coughed. So I
was clothing and a manager came over and he said,
you know, can you come out? And he goes, you know,
people were complaining that your clothing. Can you leave? I said, no,
(32:11):
I'm not leaving. I don't have COVID. I have asthma.
I have an asthma condition. Now, I said, do you
need a doctor's note? And he goes, no, just you know,
sit by the side, you know when you come, you know,
next and I was. I always had an end seat
and try not to sit next to people. But and
(32:32):
I would try not to be near people because of
my coughing. But they just, you know, judge the conclusion, oh,
you know you have must have COVID and I don't
and what And this was even like after COVID was
it wasn't as much a pandemic at the time. This
fuddy came over to me after a movie. She said,
(32:55):
next time, get up and walk around or leave. It's
not all about you. And I said, for your information,
I have a lung condition. I don't have COVID. I
have a lung condition. Yeah, And you like, I would
never go up to someone and say something you don't
know if they have a condition. When if they have
(33:18):
emphysema or CLPD or god forbid, you know, want cancer
of anything. I would say, you're okay, do you need
a cough? Drib some water? I mean, even when I
do interviews, I cough. I can't help it. And you know,
it's just amazing how people just like jump the gun.
(33:42):
Even with taking my son to doctor and I was coughing.
The doctor said, I you shouldn't be in here. Do
you have COVID. Now you would think you would know
the difference between an asthma coth and a COVID cough.
And I said, I don't have COVID. I have asthma.
You wanted to wear a mask, that's fine. I probably
(34:03):
did have one, But when a cloth and I can't
wear the mask. But you know, there's a lot of
people with different conditions around that. You know, they have
a chronic cough. Thank god, it then't smoke, you know,
in my in my youth. But that's why I really runald.
(34:25):
During the height of COVID, I stayed away from crowds.
You know, in the stores they were only limiting, you know,
a certain amounts of people anyway. But if somebody people
were looking at a particular item, I waited till they left.
I did not want to be.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
We did well, we did, you know, we did the
same thing. I mean, particularly in twenty twenty, the first
year of COVID. I mean, most people, uh uh, if
if they were fortunately they could work at home productively,
they were.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Home most of the most of the time.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And when you go out at the grocery store, you
would tend to I mean, why would you stand next
to five or six people if one of them might
have COVID. So I think people tended to do that,
keep the distance, so to speak. But it was a
difficult time and there was a lot of people that
he didn't quite know how to behave or what to do,
and so many people were just scared. I've lost a
(35:28):
couple of no family but friends to COVID. And I
know one person that got long COVID. It's set him
back eighteen months and he's still recovering from that. That's
been horrible for him. It's caused him a serious heart problem.
My arcotitis appears to be and that was a bad situation.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yes, there's I interviewed someone right at the beginning of COVID,
a pharmacist, and that had it be twenty only twenty one,
because they're right after my brother died. And I asked
the pharmacists, you know, are they going to tweak the
vaccination every year, which now I think they are doing
(36:12):
their you know, tweak it, just like the flu vaccination
and the long COVID. A lot of people are having
a difficulty with the long term effects of having COVID.
I guess that depending on how severe you had COVID
depends on your long term. You know, if you were
(36:35):
on a respirator, you probably are at more risk of
having more problems the difficulties after you becover.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Although I know people that got very, very sick and
actually we're on a respirator and once they got well,
they were fine. No, no aspects of long COVID all oh.
I think I can think of several people that were
quite ill and recovered completely. But I know one person
that got a kiss the COVID and went away after
(37:10):
about ten days and was okay, appeared to be okay,
and then several weeks later began to get various symptoms
and particularly a heart condition, and that's why it has
set him back for almost eighteen months now. And it
came kind of out of the blue, and they diagnosed
that as having been related to COVID, because you know,
(37:32):
the COVID virus gets all through your body and THENT
your heart system and kind of clogs up parts of
your heart and your body, and that's causing that kind.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Of a problem.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
The other thing about COVID I mentioned in my book
My bigg Problem long COVID. Long COVID is not just
one thing I mean long COVID is how your body's
been affected after COVID. It might be a heart condition,
it might be a liver condition, it might be a pancrease,
it might be mental fogging. So there's no specific symptom
(38:03):
for long COVID. It's just a set of problems that
are almost random in terms of how they might develop
on a personal basis after COVID. So doctors are having
a very hard time treating it because there's no single treatment.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yes, yes, I have heard that. And everyone's different. Everyone's
body reacts different to executting, you know, illness, you know,
just like but everyone responds different with vaccinations. You know,
somebody may not have any side effects, somebody might have
(38:41):
side effects. I recommend if you have any type of vaccination,
you have any side effect, you need to contact your
primary care physician. You need to report it, and you
can also probably report it to drug administration. They like
to know about the you know, side effects. What challenges, Ronald,
(39:06):
did you faith in researching and writing about such a
polarizing topic.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
That's a good question. I wouldn't say I had I
mean really challenges. I mean there was a lot of
data where America is blessed with having a government that
provides a lot of data for people that want to
use it. I mean, the internal revenue statistics are available,
public health information is available with the CDC, crime statistics
(39:40):
are available.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
I'm an engineer.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I spent my life as an engineer, that was my career,
and later as in management technical management, so I tend
to be kind of a numbers guy. For beveror worse,
I'm kind of a numbers guy. I enjoy that, and
I would put together analysis, typically just based on spreadsheets
that would.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Do we call correlation analyzing.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
For example, Let's just take a simple example where we
take mistates and we have two databases on the States.
One is vaccination rates and one is say, death rates
from COVID, and you can compare the two and just
see what the sensitivity is in terms of what the
percentage of people die based on what percentage of vaccinations
(40:23):
of particular county has. And that was the kind of
thing I did for two and a half years that
I wind up using in the book. I guess if
I had any challenges when you first go into something
like that, Betsy, you're not really sure exactly what questions
to ask and what kind of quote research or data
(40:44):
analysis to do. So you start with something that seems
obvious and you learn a little bit from that, and
then that raises other questions, and that raises other questions.
It kind of takes you down a long, long path
about how much data analysis you actually want to do,
because you do learn about what these sensitivities are and
what you really want to focus on as you proceed,
(41:05):
and you could do that, you know, I could continue,
know I could basically continue another two years to do
analysis and working on revising that book. And so you
have to know kind of when okay, I've reached the
ninety percent level where I think anymore if it's only
going to yield about ten percent more benefit to try
to put an arbitrary number around it. But that's that's
(41:25):
a challenge in doing analysis and writing a book is
kind of annoying when to quit because if you ask
any author, and I know you've spoken to many, and
they'll tell you, I mean, you write a chapter or
even a paragraph that you think is in very good condition,
you set it aside for two days, you came back,
and you make it. And that's just you see things
or how did I do though, I could make this better.
(41:47):
I'm not talking about spelling errors. I'm just talking about
just improving the language and how you present the ideas.
And that's a challenge in writing.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Well, I'll tell you, I really have a new appreciation
for writers since doing my show, because you know, we
take so much for granted, you know, picking up a
book reading it. But if people would realize the research
out goes into a book. I like asking people about
their writing a process. It's just fascinating to me. And
(42:21):
I found Covid Wars your book very informative, very interesting,
And you know, when I received the book, I was like, yeah,
you know, I don't know if I'm going to be
waking this book, but I did. I did like it,
and I highly recommend for people to read it. Why
(42:42):
would you want the readers to take away from this book, Ronald,
After you know, COVID's kind of calming down now, we
can only hope. I think it is.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
So a couple of thoughts. The first thing is there's
a lot of uncertainty and suspicion about our medical systems
and public health and who to believe in, who not
to believe and what I suggest to people, is I
point out that we're blessed in the United States with
having some of the best medical institutions in the world.
(43:18):
We have the Male Clinic, for example, in Minnesota and
Arizona and Florida.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
We have the Cleveland Clinic.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
We have Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, we have Stanford.
We have great hospitals in Houston. So, and I'm trying
to be candid with people. If you don't trust public
health facilities in the government or the pharmaceutical companies, go
to these major hospitals and they have websites and they
provide valuable information that I think is the best information available.
(43:46):
So if you have doubts about vaccines, do your research,
not with with individuals or writers or social media. Go
to the big hospitals and their websites and see what.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
They say about that.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
And because institutions like Johns Hopkins, we're blessed with that.
So that's the first, the first advice I give to people,
God forbid, if this were to come up again, or
if they have any questions medical questions, that's the place
I would start.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
That's a very good advice. And I'll go to a
source that you know you can trust enough confidence. And
I mean at some point, Ronald, you know people say
I don't trust doctors, I don't trust the healthcare system.
Well you gotta trust someone you know some information, right,
(44:37):
I mean it can always be a skeptic. I can't
tell skeptical about things. You know, go to your teaching hospital.
That's an excellent the Mayo Clinics, just like you mentioned
the hospitals that you know, John Hopkins. These are major
hoth institutions that have been around for many, many, many years.
(44:58):
And if you can't trust with and that of those
to get it right, that's correct.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
That's correct.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
People come from all over the world to go to
these institutions. That's right before COVID and today and during COVID,
and so we're blessed with that.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
That's the place to go.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
I would not say if you want to really, you know,
answer questions about COVID, I mean, read my book, but
my book is nothing compared to what's available with these
top medical institutions.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
And they're the experts.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
They're the experts, and that's the look you have questions
about do the vaccines really work?
Speaker 3 (45:29):
They're the place to go.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yes, yes, I agree, wild where can people purchase your book,
COVID Wars America's Struggle of our public health and personal freedom?
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Well, it's available in book bookstores around the country. If
the bookstore does not have that, they can order that,
they'll know how to do that, and they can even
get the book delivered to the bookstore in you know,
typically three or four days. So that's one place if
you shop in bookstores. And of course it's available on
online in many different sites. Amazon obviously it is available
(46:07):
at if you just if you just google covid Wars
Ronald Groner, lots of sources will pop up after if
you do a search. But bookstores, Amazon, Apple, if you
like audio for example, even Walmart places like that.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Online, I'll have it.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
And how can people connect with you?
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Give it?
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Well, that's easy, that's easy. If they'd like to chat
with me over email, I'm happy to do that. My
website is Ronaldgrooner dot com, Ronaldgrooner dot com. My name
uh and there's a contact form on that that if
they can basically raise a question or contact me through that,
(46:51):
and I respond to all emails. I don't get I
don't get thousands of emails, but I get enough that
I try to respond to all of them.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Oh that's great. I haven't such a pleasure talking to you, Ronald.
I hope your book does well and I think people
should read it. I really recommend reading this book, folks
that I'm going to say it again, COVID wars America,
struggle over public health and personal freedom. Ronald Grooner and
(47:21):
you spoke the last name g or you n E R.
And I enjoyed Johnny with you today and thank you
for coming on my show. You're writing your book and
talking with me today. If I enjoyed Johnny with you.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Well, Bethie, thank yous once again, thanks for the invitation.
It was a very interesting hour for me too, so
I enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
You are welcome. And folks, all the information about Ronald
of Groner will be in the blog that Genie White,
who's the station manager, writes, and Genie produces the show.
And I want to thank Lola Coldwell, who's CEO of
Pastoral Talk Radio Network makes this all possible. And I
want to thank you the listeners. Please share the show
(48:10):
to help people. We need to learn about what went
on during COVID, what we can do to make things better.
God forbid if we have another pandemic. And this is
a very interesting, very informative book that I highly recommend.
And if you don't already subscribe to Chatting with Betty,
please do so. It's for free. I'm on Amazon Music, Spotify, Spreaker,
(48:34):
I Heart, to name a few, and you could program
Alexa to Chatting with Betsy if you have Alexa. And
I also want to let you know you could follow
me on Facebook betsee Worzel w or z e l
and you could take a glimpse of my personal life
(48:55):
on Facebook and see what I am all about. Really,
what you hear with me on the show is what
you'll see on Facebook. I'm just just being there all
the time. And I want to thank you all for
listening and spending time with me today. This is Betsy
Worthal your host of Chutney with Betsy Pastor Roll Talk
(49:18):
Radio Network, a subsidiary of Global Media Network LLC. And
I always say at the end of my show, in
a world that you could be anything, please be kind
and shine your life right because we need it now
more than ever before. Be sick out their folks till
I chat with you again.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Bye now,
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