June 30, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode, Betsy Wurzel interviews author Helen Sheehy about her novel Just Willa, a story inspired by Helen’s own mother. Growing up on tenant farms in Oklahoma and Kansas, Helen’s family history shaped her deep curiosity about her mother’s life, which remained largely unknown to her until after her mother passed away when Helen was 36.Helen Sheehy, a long-time theatre professor at Southern Connecticut State University, has authored biographies of three theatre pioneers: Margo:
The Life and Theatre of Margo Jones, Eva Le Gallienne: A Biography, and Eleonora Duse: A Biography — with the latter two named New York Times notable books of the year. After years of writing nonfiction, Just Willa marks her first venture into fiction, returning to her love of storytelling.In
Just Willa, the fictional Willa Hardesty is modeled after Helen’s mother, Wilma. The novel follows Willa, the daughter of a homesteader, as she navigates the challenges of farm life, the Great Depression, and decades of personal and social hardships. Willa encourages her daughters to pursue education for a better life, showing strength, grit, and determination despite the difficulties of the 1930s and 40s. Her husband Jake, a tenant farmer, also earned money bootlegging whiskey at local dances.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/chatting-with-betsy--4211847/support.
The Life and Theatre of Margo Jones, Eva Le Gallienne: A Biography, and Eleonora Duse: A Biography — with the latter two named New York Times notable books of the year. After years of writing nonfiction, Just Willa marks her first venture into fiction, returning to her love of storytelling.In
Just Willa, the fictional Willa Hardesty is modeled after Helen’s mother, Wilma. The novel follows Willa, the daughter of a homesteader, as she navigates the challenges of farm life, the Great Depression, and decades of personal and social hardships. Willa encourages her daughters to pursue education for a better life, showing strength, grit, and determination despite the difficulties of the 1930s and 40s. Her husband Jake, a tenant farmer, also earned money bootlegging whiskey at local dances.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/chatting-with-betsy--4211847/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, have you won? This is Betsy Worsal. You're a
host of Chatting with Betsy, my passionate will Talk Radio Network,
a subsidiary of Global Media Network LLC. We're anchious to educate, enlightened,
and entertain. The views of the guest may not represent
those of the hosts the station. Folks With Me Today
(00:23):
is an amazing talented writer and author. With Me Today
is Helen She who grew up on tenant farms in
Oklahoma and Kansas. She's worked as a dramatic written a
theater textbook, and authored biographies. Are three theater pioneers, Morgo
(00:47):
the Life and Theater at Morgo Jones Hope, I pronounce
this right, Eva Lee Gellien a biography, gal On, thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Why not screw that up?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
And I come with this one Helen and Eleanora Duci
Dose do they do?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
They?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
A biography? The latter two books were needed New York
Times Notable Books of the Year. Helen has taught theater
and acting at Southern Connecticut State University for more than
two decades. After spending years running non fiction, she has
turned to her earliest love telling stories. She lived in Hiding,
(01:30):
Connecticut just Willa and that spelled w I l La
is her first novel, and folks, let me tell you outstanding,
so talented. I felt that I was in this book
with the character Willa. I laughed, I cried. I couldn't
(01:54):
put this book down. I'm reading this book two three
o'clock in the morning. Oh, I couldn't put I couldn't
put it down. It has everything in it, love, determination, grit, caregiving,
mental how it addresses so many different topics. And I'm
(02:18):
so grateful that I read this book. And I want
to welcome you, Ellen Shee to trying with that thing. Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy that you
couldn't put it down. I love that this book. This
book has obsessed me for twenty years.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
I think it was just it's it's really my heart.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So to hear you have that reaction, it just makes
me so happy. Always, when I wrote my biographies, I
wanted to sort of disappear as a writer and just
put you in that world. And I found that in
writing a novel, that's what I wanted to achieve too.
(03:08):
I just wanted to transport the reader to that world.
And it sounds like at least you were transported. Yeah,
I'm really happy about that.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
It definitely transported me. I'm from New Jersey, Helen, so
I don't know about tenant farming or homesteaders. I learned
from me in your book. So first I'm going to
ask before I get ahead of myself in the summer,
(03:42):
to unpack, what motivated you to write this wonderful novel.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well, Just Willa is my fictionalized family story, and it's
based on the life of my mother, Wilma, and she
died when I was thirty six, before I had written
any of these biographies, and I realized that I knew
almost nothing about her, and that haunted me literally for years,
(04:14):
because I look like her. Sometimes I'll go by a mirror,
especially now that I've gotten older, and I'll fear it's just.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Like, oh, there she is. So back in I think
it was two.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Thousand and three, just out of curiosity, because I really,
you know, I left home at eighteen, so I really
didn't know nothing. I knew nothing about her world. So
I started researching the world of northwestern Oklahoma that my
mother and father lived in and were formed by, you know,
the Great Depression, the dust bowl, farming, ranching, my father
(04:48):
was a bootlegger and a boxer, so I researched that.
But you know, Betsy, I didn't think this was just
for me.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
This was personal.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I didn't think anybody would really care about an ordinary
farm woman from Oklahoma. I mean, I'd written about famous women.
So I think it was around that time in two
thousand and three when I was working on this, I
was asked to give a talk at a local club
here in actually in New Haven, Connecticut about the three
biographies I'd written, and they asked me to include at
(05:20):
the end what I was working on now. So at
the end of the talk, I told them about my
idea for this novel, and I told them about my characters,
Willa and Jake and Betsy. At the end of the talk,
I mean, I'd spent probably forty minutes talking about the biographies,
(05:40):
five minutes talking about Willa and Jake.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
The only questions.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
They asked me were about Willa and Jake.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
They all wanted to know more.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
These were East Coast women, many of them, you know,
living in the city all their lives. You're a New
Jersey You're probably urban. And what it made me realize
is that all art is regional and local and immediate.
But it all comes from life.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And yes, we all.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Share in that.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
You know, everybody has a family, everybody has parents, people
have children, and so all of those emotions, all of
those feelings, they're universal. So that that advance. I was
so happy that woman asked me to do that because
it gave me the courage to keep at this book
because I really didn't think, who cares, you know, nobody
(06:35):
cares about this ordinary woman from nowhere, But turns out
they did, so I kept going.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You know what, you know my thing, Helen, And this
is my personal opinion. And I've been doing this show
for five and a half years. People can relate to
human interest stories. They can relate and that is you
knowsal all over the world people have h we lose
(07:04):
loved ones, people get sick. Yes, you know, there's agriculture
farmers all over the world. They know what it's like
to lose a crop. You know, they the storms and
the challenges with the weather and heartbreak. It's universal. So
(07:25):
it's very relatable. And I have to say this, I
love the cover of your book. I could see that
your mom was a beautiful woman and she's holding your
your brother.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, you have brothers, my half brother.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Thats been.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Right, that's one of the rare I think that's the
only photograph I have of her as a teenager. She was,
she was eighteen. There she was and my half letter
was two and a half half. And that's on the
original homestead, so you can see it's this high prairie.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
There are no trees.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
It's just it's pretty stark landscape there. And it's interesting
that homestead.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Is still in our family.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And still it's been expanded, but.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
It's still there.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
My cousin Kai has an angus cattle operation there.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I looked at that picture and being from New Jersey,
where you don't see in the space of land, I'm thinking, wow,
that is really flat and you know empty, there's no trees,
there's no building, right, there is anything.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Well if you look, if you look down from that,
if you look in a direction, you would see uh
cans and you would you could see the Cimarron River.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
So there is more, you.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Know, there's sort of it's it's prairie country. It's uh,
but it's pretty, it's uh.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
It's a pretty tough.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Landscape and that's why they had such a hard time
during the dust Bowl there. So this is nineteen thirty five,
so they're still in the middle of the depression there. Yeah,
it's those were those were tough.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Times, really tough times.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yes, yeah, very very uh poor, I had to ask
you the title just, well, oh, how did you come
up with that? Well?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
At first I was just calling it Willa, but that
I don't know, that never felt right. I like titles
to have kind of different layers of signific significance. And
a friend of mine, uh, she's my early reader, a
biographer friend.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
She suggested adding just and I thought that was.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Perfect because the idea was it's just Willa, just.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
This ordinary human being, this ordinary woman.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
But it's also just Willa, meaning special, and she's in
the center.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
So I like having those two.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Two different levels of meaning there. I like that.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
But you know, you know what, Helen, I don't think
Willa was just any ordinary woman. What I no. I
mean many things I took from the book your mom.
You know, this character based on your mom was such
a woman of fear, determination and great and resilience. And
(10:54):
that was a tough time. Really, you know, Poor, I
know a little bit about the dust bowl. Uh, very poor,
I mean My dad was born in nineteen twenty four.
He lived during the Depression here in New Jersey. And
what he told me was they used to go from
(11:15):
apartment to apartment, and at the end of the month,
when the rent was due, they would leave so they
wouldn't have to pay any rent. They go somewhere else,
and then eventually he moved in with his uncle.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Oh excuse me, Well, so you know what sting, Yeah,
what a lot of these these people is based on.
They they were the Oakies who stayed because a lot
of people did that, they just left.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
I mean it was brutal.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I mean sometimes in some of the worst storms, you
couldn't see your hand in front of your face. I
mean it was so the sky was literally black with dirt.
So a lot of people they didn't have they just flipped,
you know, they packed everything up and they went to California,
they moved west.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
They just headed out.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
But this family, and it's partly because of my grandfather.
He was kind of entrepreneuring spirit, and he figured out
how to terrace his land and he hung on because
here's the thing, Betsy, he had, and this is what
a lot of people didn't have because of the homestead.
(12:27):
He had one hundred and sixty acres that he owned
that were his, that he could plant, the crops, that
he could run Catalan, that he could have gardens. But
it belonged to him. And I can't tell you how
important that is to people. And he didn't want to
leave his land behind. So he stuck it out and
they managed, and they, frankly, they did better than a
(12:50):
lot of people who were in town who had a
lot harder, who you know, didn't have chickens or pigs
or managed to you know, get some kind of a
garden going. So yeah, these were these were the people
who stayed and stuck it out. And many of those
people are still there hanging on. I mean a lot
(13:12):
of it's like me, I, you know, moved moved east,
got out because of the you know, I needed to
get an education and find a different way of life.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yes, And before we get into that, because though you're
a will was very big on her children being educated,
what isn't what differences between a homesteader and that tenant farmer?
Because I didn't know what a tenant farmer was. I
never heard of that till I got your book.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Well, think about what anybody who rents an apartment. Basically,
what you're doing is your renting land. You don't have
enough money to buy your own land, but you're a
farmer and you haven't been trained to do anything else.
That's the only course of work available to you. So
the landowner, often they live in town, they don't want
(14:03):
a farm. So what you can do is you can
rent land, and you would. They would often do it
on shares like two thirds to one third share. The
tenant farmer, the person renting it and working the ground,
would get two thirds of the crop and then you
would pay the landowner a third. So it's a way
for people. And sometimes you can save money, but a
(14:25):
lot of times you don't, and you often have to
have side jobs, so.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It's it's never yours.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
So that means that you're you may if that if
that lease runs out, that means you have to find
a new place to farm. So it's just a more
precarious existence and it's really not yours. You find yourself
fixing up different ten at homes and yeah, it's it's
(14:56):
it's basically the difference between owning your own house and
renting your own house, except on a larger on a
larger school.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
So you're really a ton of farmers at the mercy
of the person who owns the land. And they don't
have a crop you know that, Yeah, that season, that harvest,
then they're up a creek because they can't afford to pay, right.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Because that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Usually you would pay in august after harvest, you'd pay
whatever you owed in august, and often you would agree
on a figure. So whether or not you got the crop.
In some years you might do better, but you know,
you could be wiped out by a hailstorm. So that's
why people needed side jobs. You had to have something
(15:45):
else you were doing, and and just willa. One of
the things the family does is they have a custom
hay bailing operation, which means they're working all the time.
They're they're bailing for other people and that they're farming
their own land. So people are literally working from five
and am in the morning until after sundown.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I mean, you just you're going.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
NonStop, you know, to make a living, especially if you've
got cool that you've got to support.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah. Yes, and you know, there was no technology back then,
so you didn't know about the weather storm was coming
up and it was so different back then, and of
course they didn't have box then they probably didn't eat. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Well, it got very tough. That's why you make plans ahead.
And now everybody cans. You have canned food that you
that you always can from your garden and you really
depend on. Even when I was growing up, we you know,
we milked our own cow. We had our own pigs
that we butchered. We had cattle that we butchered, chickens, eggs.
(16:56):
Sometimes we would sell eggs to make money. Always have
a garden, so you could really live off the land,
and then you would can I even remember my mother
in the fifties making her own soap. We had Life soap,
which is pretty.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah people did that.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, well she would save all the lard. She'd
save all the lard to make Life soap. She mostly
used it for cleaning and washing clothes. You wouldn't wash
your face with it. It was pretty well, I guess
the men did. I don't think I did, but it was.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Yeah, so you could.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Get along and you learned how to take care of yourself.
I remember only going to the grocery store once a month.
That was a big deal, you know, going to the
going to the grocery store in town.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I got hungry read in your book all the food.
Oh my god, yes, before I get into the education,
I gotta talked about the food, probably because I'm hungry
right now, but I got so hungry your your book.
And just like folks, I thought that I was in
(18:05):
this book, I was at their dinner table and you're
talking how I mean, homemade butter, homemade bread, fresh chickens.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
The chickens were the There's a dinner in the when
Willa cooks Jake the first meal, the Sunday dinner. I
think it's a chapter called Sunday Dinner. And of course
she's wanting to impress them, but she's just cooking her
ordinary meal. But she fried chicken that was so delicious.
And what they used were these small fryars, like a
(18:41):
pound and a half. So maybe you would you might
cook like six or seven chickens for the meal, but
oh my gosh, they were so good. But what Willa
was really known for was her homemade bread, which was
just yeah. And I think my my brother, who's a chef,
(19:04):
who probably was closest to my mother, he likes to
say about Mama either you either you have the feel
or you don't.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
She just had a gift.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And I'm sure you know home cooks like this.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Who Yeah, my grandmother was like that, isn't that amazing?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Oh my gosh. She was a good cook.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
She could make anything, and it was always so delicious.
And maybe because it was fresh. I don't know if
that was part of it. A lot of it and
no refined sugar.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
We hardly ever had.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Lots of sugar, We just didn't. It was always fresh,
fresh vegetables. We don't have canned fruit because you couldn't
get a lot of fresh fresh fruit. But everything was
not processed and fresh and just delicious.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
I'll tell you what. My mouth was watering reading about
the the cinnamon fine and the bread and the butter.
I was like, oh wow, that sounds great. But yeah,
my grandmother she didn't used a recipe. I to watch
her cook. She said, Graham, right, you know you're not measuring.
She'd be a hand of This depends on that. I
(20:20):
asked my mother for her child pie recipe and she
wrote something out.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
But it's like you say, they don't really they just
do it by feel or memory or if this is
the way they've always done it, so I've never been
able to duplicate that, so.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
I think my mother couldn't.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, my mother couldn't duplicate her her mother's cooking either,
and she just shouldn't pick it up. She didn't learn it.
And your your Mumham was very determined for her children
to get an education because I I guess at that
(21:00):
time women were not allowed to well maybe go to
our high school.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Well she could have gone to high school if her
father had allowed it, but at that time it was
the norm that girls would only go to the eighth grade,
and the.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Eighth grade was it was very rigorous.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I found an old exam that those kids would take
in Oklahoma in the early thirties, and it's so rigorous
it covers every subject. I tried to take it and
I flunked it because it's too hard. I mean it's
US history, mathematics, geography. They have to answer questions about
(21:40):
taking care of animals and how much fence you need
to fence in a certain amount of acres, and it
was really and a lot of Oklahoma history, civics, composition,
even music and penmanship, and it's really really hard. So no,
she was denied an education, and Willa, my character, Willa
(22:01):
is extremely intelligent, and that really that was a huge,
huge loss for her because she had dreamed of going
on and you know, getting a degree and becoming a
teacher herself, maybe getting an advanced degree. So she was
determined that her kids get an education, particularly particularly her daughters,
(22:24):
get an education. And I always always felt that that
I really needed to go to college and do something
other than what she had, you know, to I think
she wanted me to have an easier life that she had.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I know she did.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I know she wanted me. I remember, we'll see. Once
I got so angry because.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
All of us worked, and I really wanted to drive
the tractor. And I think I was ten or eleven,
and I was certainly old. My brothers were driving a
tractor when they were seven and seven or eight, so
I could have done it, and I really really want
to do it. And my dad said, sure, you can
drive a tractor, and my mother put her foot down
and she said, absolutely not, You're not going to do it.
So while everybody else is out working, guess what I
(23:11):
was doing.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I was in the house.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I was reading because she always made sure I had
books to read.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
And that's what I was doing.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
And now I'm so grateful to her, But at the
time I was furious. I really I sold for weeks,
I think because I wasn't allowed to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yeah, and she thought you were missing out, you know,
and something. But your mother saw, you know, the bigger picture,
and that you know, in that time, education for women
was not really a high priority because they figure, well,
they'll just get married and get pregnant and have kids.
(23:53):
You know, that was the thinking back then. And Wilma
she got pregnant when she was young and had like
a I went called a shotgun wedding, which it was.
It was definitely.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Ah.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, that story cracks me up. I'm not giving everything away, Helen,
don't worry about talking about the book. But I got
to laugh. I mean really, I laughed and I cried
in this book because there's just a range of emotions
and this Jersey girl here I heard above Will then
(24:41):
I like his music actually, and that fact I read
your book, Will if I had, I said, I got
to listen to him now Helen mentioned it in her book.
Now I gotta go listen to him again. And when
I was reading about his song, I think it was
(25:02):
someone mentioned that Benny Goodman if he was playing near
bomb uh and the will willis the cherry Pounce's last.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
Name, Bob Wills will Will Uh, Well, he would go
under cover and hear Bob play, but he didn't wantnyone
to recognize him because he wanted Bob to have the.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Attention I did notting.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, well, he had a huge influence that she. Yeah,
she loved Bob Wills and he loved to dance too.
I mean, both of them loved to dance, but he
was I love his music. It's so great, uh, because.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
It was that whole new sound.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I mean, he was a huge influence, you know, that
kind of I don't know, guitars, fiddles, all.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
That stuff, saxophones, clarinet's.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
It was big, you know, it was a bigger, bigger
sound that they were used to. It was like string
bands and a horn band. So it's I guess it's
I guess you would call it Western swing, but it
exactly of music.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
It's just.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Wonderful, wowful.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I know when I was when I was writing the book,
that's what really helped me was to listen to that,
you know, listen to that music. Try to try to
listen to what Will and Jake would have listened to
what they liked, and uh, all those songs.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, yeah, that was. And then reading about Willa and
Jake going to dances. This is how universal the book is, folks.
I thought of my own parents who met at a dance.
My mom is said she was born in nineteen thirty
and she used to go to dances all the time.
(26:59):
Mm hmm. And I thought of my mom and reading
the book, and you know, my own parents love story.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Do you know, isn't that interesting, Betsy, Because Will and
Jake go to dances. This is in the thirties and forties.
And then in my own life, my own parents when
I'm growing up, they I think they went to dances
every Saturday night. That was their everybody looked forward to that.
That was the big That was the big outing with
(27:32):
Saturday night to go to a dance.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
I mean, these are country people.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
There was usually they'd go to a nearby town like
Enid or maybe yeah, usually it was probably Enid or
Alva and they would all dance and that's when they
would see their friends. Because everybody was so busy during
the week and working long hours. But on Saturday night,
Saturday night was you were off. You might work Saturday,
but then Sunday you didn't work. If you unless it
(27:58):
was harvest or something, then you would have to. But
they really looked forward to that, and you know, instead
of they didn't sit home and watch TV because nobody
had a television.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Ye, that's right. So that's why human like stories like this.
It is it it's universal. You know. It made me
think of my parents. Actually it made me think, like,
I don't I know a little bit about my mom's childhood,
but she didn't discuss much.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
You know, why didn't they They never talked.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I figured out my parents never talked about anything. Well,
I think part of it was because nobody really had
any time.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Where is the leisure?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I mean, I'm thinking when you have time to talk
is when you have some kind of leisure, and there
is There.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Wasn't any leisure.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I mean I never took a vacation until I was
I think I was in college. I went away for
a spring breaking thing, but that was the first when
I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
So there's just no leisure if you're working all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So that's true.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
And no time to sit around and and just talk.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
When are you doing that? Yeah, it's now. I think
we have we have more time. We're lucky enough.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I mean I'm lucky enough because I got an education
and not working myself, you know, working all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, there's more. Uh, we have more time, we have
more conveniences. And also you know, being brought up and
you're in that depression, especially during World War Two, because
your book takes us from you know, decades and right,
they didn't talk. They did not talk during World War
(29:49):
two what was going on because they was that's saying
loose lips, think ships.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
I know they Yeah, they did not talk. I mean
I think in New Jersey back in World War Two,
I think they had some German submarines that they saw.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Uh, you guys were closer to it, right, Uh, some.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
German so you know you and in California they had
some stuff going on, but you just you know, didn't know.
I mean, like my dad told me and then he
showed me letters he was in the war, he was
in the Navy. They would black out information what he wrote.
They didn't think it was appropriate.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Course, sure, sure they were considered, right, I have to have.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Sure you, Helen, I know you know how to research
for this book, but I you fascinate me. Uh, how
did you come up? What is your creative process? Like
you're writing, you have the characters. How did you come
up with this? Okay, I will tell you this dialogue.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Well, I will tell you I was Actually my training
was not in writing. I'm my training was in theater.
So like most theater people, I wanted to be an actor.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
And then.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I you know, studied drama and I taught theater. I
taught acting and I became really interested in improvisational theater.
And one of the things that you do with improvisation
is that you start out with a character and you
try to imagine them, and then you place them in
(31:43):
a situation and then you just sort of you know,
what do they want and what are they willing to
do to get it? So with this book, I had
my core characters. I had Will and Jake.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Well you can't.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I couldn't cover all these decades and tell you everything
about everything. There's too many stories.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
I mean, I have so much I left out of
this book. There's so many stories.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
But I think every novel you have to have so
many stories that you're able to pick and choose the.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Ones that are telling, the.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Ones that grab you, the ones that move the story forward,
the ones that reveal the characters, and of course Willa
is always the center, and you know, those core relationships
are really important. So, for example, I wanted to write
about Willa's first experience with a man when she meets
(32:47):
Big Oh, well, go ahead, okay, are we okay? So
the idea was that I would place will in a situation.
So she's just been denied the opportunity to go onto
high school. She's rebellious, she's furious at her family, so
(33:09):
she acts out, and she's in town and she meets
this older young man and he's an he's a boxer
and that's how he makes his living, and she basically
is seduced by him. So what I do is I
place Willa in a situation and then I just I
literally imagine it.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
In my head.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
I sit in my office and I just play it
out in my head as if it's unfolding in front
of me.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
What Willa will say.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I know what Charlie wants, I know what Willa wants.
I don't know where the scene's going. I have no idea,
and then I just let it play out.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
And then I.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Write it down and then I revise it, and I
revise it and I revise it. But that's basically my process.
It's basically just imagination, putting the characters in a situation,
imagining my parents first meeting Will and Jake. How did
they meet? Well, okay, they're going to meet at a dance? Well,
how does that happen? What's their first look like? What
(34:11):
are they wearing? How do they feel about each other?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
You know? Is it instantaneous?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Does it take more development? And then it just in foolds.
So it's fun, Betsy, because I can't I don't know.
I don't.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I know.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
There are writers who plot everything out beforehand and outline.
I can't do that because, frankly, it would bore me
if I know where it's headed, because I want to
be entertained too. I don't want to know what's going
to happen next and then I discover it. So that's
the fun for me of writing. So I guess I
(34:45):
can try. I make it up as I go along.
There you go, That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
I guess. Wow, well, you certainly have a talent. I
mean just the dialogue. How much is is true, like
with the characters and without giving away the plot.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
No, No, I think the the arc of the book
Will is the basic facts that is true.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Her father was a homesteader, she.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Was denied an education, she did have a shotgun wedding.
But there's so much that I don't know, so many details,
some of the big events that happened with my father
and some of the things that he does with his bootlegging. Ye,
and I just have to I had to imagine that.
(35:37):
But the general arc of it and the children she have, Yes,
she has a devastating loss. She had a daughter who
not only was afflicted with polio but became mentally ill,
was a paranoid schizophrenic, so she had to deal with that.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
So those are the facts, but those are just that's
sort of the scaffolding. But the individual scenes, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I left home, I don't know, and we didn't talk
about any of those things. So I would say most
of it is well. Actually, you know what Connie Congon
on my book Jacket said, all fiction and all true
because there's a kind of you know, there's an emotional truth,
there's a truth.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
That is true.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
That the the specifics may not be true, but that
emotion is true, that feeling is true, and that's what
I wanted the readers, readers to feel, especially, I mean,
some of those losses are just and anybody who's gone
through loss they know that.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Oh boy, yes, yes, that's why I think I cried,
you know, reading about the first loss and just you know,
your book is you know, fans decades, but it's very
relevant and people can relate to it today mental illness.
(37:06):
I'm a huge mental health care advocate, and I was
glad to see that story in your book. And how
will it you know, dealt with it? And you know
your your heart just uh breaks and it's you know,
a loss, you change you after a loss, that's just
(37:28):
the fact. You know you change and you know you
I never lost the child. I don't know how that feels.
I don't want to know how that feels. But that
is devastating, uh I. Alwa's like to lose a spouse
because I lost my spouse. And you know, Greece does
(37:48):
change you, and you know, and you've become resilient and
you learn to not get over it. You don't get
over it. You move forward. And to me, Willa was
inspirational character. She took the bull by the horns with
every situation, and it's like, you know, she would say
(38:10):
get with it. You know, she would just say, Okay,
here's the problem, right, get with it, let's take care
of it. And I just and then just all that,
she goes to like her thinking that she wasn't attractive
anymore to Jake, her husband, and she she was to Jake. Yet, well,
(38:35):
woman doesn't think that right as you're getting older, excuse me,
all these different situations Willa has gone through and just persevered,
you know, she just continued on. And that's what they
(38:55):
did back especially back then.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
They did they had to.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
And one of the reasons it is necessity because there
are no resources. I mean, there just are no resources.
You have to depend upon yourself. I mean that's when
she worked for a doctor. Willa worked for a doctor
when she was a young woman, and she learned how
to do things. And her her father was a kind
of the camp doctor and his nickname was Doc. Because
(39:23):
you had to take care of those things. You can't
be running, you know, driving fifty miles to a doctor.
You have to take care of those injuries, injuries yourself.
So they learned how to they learned how to do
things on their own. But oh it's hard, Betsy, It's
really hard, and your heart just goes out to them that,
oh my gosh. I mean not that things are easier.
(39:44):
I mean, I think things are hard now in a
different way, but it was really tough because I think
what's one of the things that moves me about Willa is.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
That she she is.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
She doesn't have a lot of support, and she has
to do it on her own. And she thinks about
that about mothers and about how mothers are rarely thanked
and they're not.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
I mean, it's just expected.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
You just do that.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
I don't know, it's it's just it's so.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
But I'm also incredibly grateful for what I learned from
these people and from my parents. It's especially not whining.
We just, you know, we didn't have a lot of rules.
You don't feel sorry for yourself. You work hard, you
pay attention.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
And you're kind. You're just kind.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
You just you know, you're a good person.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
That's what you do.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
And that's a lesson I've taken to heart my entire life.
Just those those simple things that have nothing to do
with religion.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
They just have to do with being a good person.
I know.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
I've had someone to ask me and Malifa's and nephews
what advice I would give them, and I always tell
and it was Henry James. And his advice he always
gave to his nephews was be kind, be kind, be kind.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
That was it.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Yeah, yeah, we could all just go with that.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
That's so true. And I say that always at the
end of my show too, and my show I didn't
know that, yes, yes, so yeah, and I well, well,
it grew up on a farm, so she saw, you know, cows,
(41:39):
animals dying, right, and the life cycle of of the livestock.
And you know, back if animal was injured, they would
shoot it to put out. It's misery, absolutely, yep. And
I just you know, so they learned that cycle of life,
(42:03):
not that it makes it any easier, but she witnessed,
you know, birthing of animals and the death of the animals.
And of course it's not the same as a human being.
I'm not saying that it's not, but you know, just
that's the cycle of life. You know, we live, we die, yep.
(42:24):
And I'm glad you also brought that out in your book.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Well, one of the things, and maybe this is partly
my ammission and it's it's it's what I tried to
do with the biographies because you're writing. I mean, I
always wrote about dead people, and one of the things
you want to do with a biography is to try
to bring them to life in some way.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
It's a one Critics says.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Biography is a spring task of bringing to life again.
And for me personally, just working on just Willa, writing
just Willa. I cannot bring my mother back to life.
And Willa is a fictional character. It's not my mother.
I know that, but I also know that it's what
(43:15):
I can do. I can try to get as close
as I can. If I can bring Willa back to life,
if I can make her live for you, for example,
then that makes I've achieved something because.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
I'm raising the dead.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
You know, you're bringing something that wasn't You're bringing something
to life, and that for me is everything and.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
It helps me live with with losses.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I've had to know that I can do that as
a as a writer and make something live just for
a moment. It's it makes life bearable because that's the task,
isn't it, Betsy, finding a way to live with loss,
find out way, finding a way to uh And there
are all kinds of ways people do it, and so
(44:05):
everybody's got to find that for themselves.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
What is that?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
How do you That's true?
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yeah? Yeah, that is so trul I think, Helen. In
my opinion, I think your mom would be very proud
of you, of the woman you became, the books that
you wrote. This book just willa honoring your parents' legacy.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
To me, that's what I One of the many things
I received from your book is you're honoring your mom's legacy,
and you know you did bring her back to life
in this book. And there are so many times when
(44:54):
people die, people are afraid to mention the person's name
because they're afraid that somebody might get set. Well, we know,
we know that they come tell us a memory, what
good times you had, And the book does that. You're
talking about the good times the bad times, even though
(45:15):
you know it's a fictional character based on your mom.
You are honoring your parents' memories. And I just think, Wow,
you know what, I would love to see this maid
into a movie. I really would.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
I would love I would love that too.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
I've had actually a.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Hollywood agent did read it and he loved it.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
But the problem is, Betsy, it's it's.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Dire times in Hollywood right now.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Yeah, it's really not a good time. So but yes,
I agree, I think it. I think would and I
think that we need we.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Need to look at the past. We need to know
what happened before and be truthful about it. I think
that's I think that's really really important. I miss writing it,
I miss working on it. I mean, these people are
(46:23):
still living in my head, even some of the smaller characters.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
They're just you know, I think about Big.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Charlie from time to time and wonder whatever happened, you know,
what could happen to him and his story? You know,
the boxer who leaves Will and goes to California.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
What was his life like out there in that world?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
They just see, you see, like writing another book about
the other characters in the book.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I'm working on something else right now that I've had
in my wall for while, trying.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
To get it right. But it's funny.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
I only write if I'm I really have to figure
something out. And one of the things I wanted to
do with just Willa was figure out who my mother
was because I really didn't know, and I think I
did that. One of the things I'd love to ask
her is I know she would be extremely proud of me,
(47:25):
but I would also love to ask her like, hey, Mama,
what did I miss?
Speaker 3 (47:28):
You know? What did I miss out when I miss something?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
And I would love to know that.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
But so I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
I'm just gonna have to get obsessed about obsessed about something.
It's the same thing when I write a short story
or an essay I have to writing for me is
I have to discover something. I have to figure something
out and then the answer is revealed to me.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
It's weird. So it's not like.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
I have a plot idea and I try to write
it down.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
So it's a strange process.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
I don't know what I'm so I'm actually I'm working
on something and hassed me for a while and I'm
trying to get it right. But it takes a long
time to get fiction right.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
I think, yeah, it does.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
You know. I'm really since doing this show, Helen, I
really come to appreciate writers, or there's writers because people
spend years on books, years writing one book, the research,
you know, the intense research that goes in. So now
when I pick up a book, I really appreciate. I
(48:35):
appreciate what the author I did. And you know, I
just want to tell the audience, if you read a
book and you appreciate that story, go in the author's
website and tell them, tell many you enjoy this book.
They want to do that.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Absolutely. I love that I have gotten some of that
with Jess Willa. People calling me or you know, writing
on my website, and I love that you.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Really want to hear.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
And what's so interesting, Bessy, is that people respond to
different things because the book is difparent from me. Now
it is itself, it's its own thing, and it has
its own relationship with readers. So I mean, everybody's going
to feel about it differently, and so that's what I
really enjoy some people relate to. I have been surprised though,
(49:25):
by how many men.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Have told me they love this book.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
That was interesting to me because I thought, okay, it's
just Willa, is this a woman's book? But no, I'm
finding out that's not true. I was on a business
podcast the other day, and we were talking about all
the and I realized as I was going preparing for that,
there's so much about making money in this book and
(49:51):
about just making a living and economics and how do
people do that, and the different characters and what their
techniques are. And I hadn't realized that about the importance
of money in the book until somebody else had mentioned that,
and I realized, oh my goodness, in about the second chapter,
Willa is counting her money, you know, and not being
(50:14):
put in charge of money. But of course that's the
reality of these people. If you're poor, you've got to
think about money a lot.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
That's true. That's true. Hell, and I know there's a
lot we that covering this book. And you are we
going to come back if you want to talk about
justin Willa again or whatever work you're doing. You're a
lovely guest. I love talking to you. How can people
buy your book? Where can I buy your book? Where
(50:43):
can then they find it? Just want?
Speaker 2 (50:46):
You can buy lots of different places. You can go
online to any of the online places.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
Bookshop dot org is one.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
You can go to your favorite bookstore. It's really it's
really out there, So just go online. If you want
more information about me, you can go to my website.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Helenshehey dot org. I couldn't get a dot com because
that website was taken.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
By a lawyer in Dublin, Ireland, so I'm a dot org.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
But there's more information.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
There's also information about more information about the book. But yeah,
so yes, or eventually go to your library. I'm not
sure if it's in libraries yet. It's probably on its
way there, but yeah, please go buy the book. Find
out about Jake and Willa.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Yes, folks, I barely scratch the surface. There's so much
s unpack with us. Will I highly highly recommend you
buying this book, mat fact, buy two, buy one for yourself.
I wanted to gift for someone because I know they'll
enjoy it. Does the book can be given at any time,
(52:03):
you know, I'll tell you as a former caregiver, which
I still am a caregiver, this book has caregiving in it. Folks,
you're a caregiver, Yeah, this book is caregiving in it.
Oh it does? It does really well. Was a caregiver
then a phenomenal one. I just so love this book, Helen,
(52:24):
Congratulations for job well done. I don't know what you're
going to do for an encore because this was really
I know you have something up your sleeve, but this
was really phenomenal. And thank you so much for writing
just Willa coming on the show, and thank you, thank
(52:50):
you so much.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
I really enjoyed this all.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Right, take care You're welcome. Take care, Willa, Willa. Thanks,
take care Helen, folks, so that I got will on
that on my mind, folks. All the information that Helen
Shehy can be found in the blog that Genie Waite,
station manager writes. And I want to thank Lonean Caldwell,
(53:13):
CEO Pashuwall Talk Radio. That makes it all possible. And
I want to thank you the listeners, so thank you
for listening. If you know the race, subscribe to Johnny
with Betsy, please do so. It's for free on Amazon Music, Spotify, Speaker.
And I want to give a shout out to Lisa
Warren who ranges this interview. Lissa Warren is president of
(53:38):
Lissa Warrent p R. Phenomenal, phenomenal publicist. And I wanted
to thank Helen Shehey again. What a book, folks, what
a story, what a novel. I'm telling you you will
not be disappointed. And if you want to follow me,
I'm on Facebook. That's the Worzel w or Z. And
(54:01):
as I always say at the end of my show,
in a world where you could be anything, please be
kind and shine your life bright because we need it
now more than ever before. This is Betsy Worthal. You're
a host of Chiney with Betsy. I'm Passion World Talk
Radio Network, a subsidiary of Global Media Network LLC. Bye
(54:24):
bye now
Hello, have you won? This is Betsy Worsal. You're a
host of Chatting with Betsy, my passionate will Talk Radio Network,
a subsidiary of Global Media Network LLC. We're anchious to educate, enlightened,
and entertain. The views of the guest may not represent
those of the hosts the station. Folks With Me Today
(00:23):
is an amazing talented writer and author. With Me Today
is Helen She who grew up on tenant farms in
Oklahoma and Kansas. She's worked as a dramatic written a
theater textbook, and authored biographies. Are three theater pioneers, Morgo
(00:47):
the Life and Theater at Morgo Jones Hope, I pronounce
this right, Eva Lee Gellien a biography, gal On, thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Why not screw that up?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
And I come with this one Helen and Eleanora Duci
Dose do they do?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
They?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
A biography? The latter two books were needed New York
Times Notable Books of the Year. Helen has taught theater
and acting at Southern Connecticut State University for more than
two decades. After spending years running non fiction, she has
turned to her earliest love telling stories. She lived in Hiding,
(01:30):
Connecticut just Willa and that spelled w I l La
is her first novel, and folks, let me tell you outstanding,
so talented. I felt that I was in this book
with the character Willa. I laughed, I cried. I couldn't
(01:54):
put this book down. I'm reading this book two three
o'clock in the morning. Oh, I couldn't put I couldn't
put it down. It has everything in it, love, determination, grit, caregiving,
mental how it addresses so many different topics. And I'm
(02:18):
so grateful that I read this book. And I want
to welcome you, Ellen Shee to trying with that thing. Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy that you
couldn't put it down. I love that this book. This
book has obsessed me for twenty years.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
I think it was just it's it's really my heart.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
So to hear you have that reaction, it just makes
me so happy. Always, when I wrote my biographies, I
wanted to sort of disappear as a writer and just
put you in that world. And I found that in
writing a novel, that's what I wanted to achieve too.
(03:08):
I just wanted to transport the reader to that world.
And it sounds like at least you were transported. Yeah,
I'm really happy about that.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
It definitely transported me. I'm from New Jersey, Helen, so
I don't know about tenant farming or homesteaders. I learned
from me in your book. So first I'm going to
ask before I get ahead of myself in the summer,
(03:42):
to unpack, what motivated you to write this wonderful novel.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well, Just Willa is my fictionalized family story, and it's
based on the life of my mother, Wilma, and she
died when I was thirty six, before I had written
any of these biographies, and I realized that I knew
almost nothing about her, and that haunted me literally for years,
(04:14):
because I look like her. Sometimes I'll go by a mirror,
especially now that I've gotten older, and I'll fear it's just.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Like, oh, there she is. So back in I think
it was two.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Thousand and three, just out of curiosity, because I really,
you know, I left home at eighteen, so I really
didn't know nothing. I knew nothing about her world. So
I started researching the world of northwestern Oklahoma that my
mother and father lived in and were formed by, you know,
the Great Depression, the dust bowl, farming, ranching, my father
(04:48):
was a bootlegger and a boxer, so I researched that.
But you know, Betsy, I didn't think this was just
for me.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
This was personal.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I didn't think anybody would really care about an ordinary
farm woman from Oklahoma. I mean, I'd written about famous women.
So I think it was around that time in two
thousand and three when I was working on this, I
was asked to give a talk at a local club
here in actually in New Haven, Connecticut about the three
biographies I'd written, and they asked me to include at
(05:20):
the end what I was working on now. So at
the end of the talk, I told them about my
idea for this novel, and I told them about my characters,
Willa and Jake and Betsy. At the end of the talk,
I mean, I'd spent probably forty minutes talking about the biographies,
(05:40):
five minutes talking about Willa and Jake.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
The only questions.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
They asked me were about Willa and Jake.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
They all wanted to know more.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
These were East Coast women, many of them, you know,
living in the city all their lives. You're a New
Jersey You're probably urban. And what it made me realize
is that all art is regional and local and immediate.
But it all comes from life.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And yes, we all.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Share in that.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
You know, everybody has a family, everybody has parents, people
have children, and so all of those emotions, all of
those feelings, they're universal. So that that advance. I was
so happy that woman asked me to do that because
it gave me the courage to keep at this book
because I really didn't think, who cares, you know, nobody
(06:35):
cares about this ordinary woman from nowhere, But turns out
they did, so I kept going.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You know what, you know my thing, Helen, And this
is my personal opinion. And I've been doing this show
for five and a half years. People can relate to
human interest stories. They can relate and that is you
knowsal all over the world people have h we lose
(07:04):
loved ones, people get sick. Yes, you know, there's agriculture
farmers all over the world. They know what it's like
to lose a crop. You know, they the storms and
the challenges with the weather and heartbreak. It's universal. So
(07:25):
it's very relatable. And I have to say this, I
love the cover of your book. I could see that
your mom was a beautiful woman and she's holding your
your brother.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, you have brothers, my half brother.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Thats been.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Right, that's one of the rare I think that's the
only photograph I have of her as a teenager. She was,
she was eighteen. There she was and my half letter
was two and a half half. And that's on the
original homestead, so you can see it's this high prairie.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
There are no trees.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
It's just it's pretty stark landscape there. And it's interesting
that homestead.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Is still in our family.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And still it's been expanded, but.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
It's still there.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
My cousin Kai has an angus cattle operation there.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I looked at that picture and being from New Jersey,
where you don't see in the space of land, I'm thinking, wow,
that is really flat and you know empty, there's no trees,
there's no building, right, there is anything.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Well if you look, if you look down from that,
if you look in a direction, you would see uh
cans and you would you could see the Cimarron River.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
So there is more, you.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Know, there's sort of it's it's prairie country. It's uh,
but it's pretty, it's uh.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
It's a pretty tough.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Landscape and that's why they had such a hard time
during the dust Bowl there. So this is nineteen thirty five,
so they're still in the middle of the depression there. Yeah,
it's those were those were tough.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Times, really tough times.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yes, yeah, very very uh poor, I had to ask
you the title just, well, oh, how did you come
up with that? Well?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
At first I was just calling it Willa, but that
I don't know, that never felt right. I like titles
to have kind of different layers of signific significance. And
a friend of mine, uh, she's my early reader, a
biographer friend.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
She suggested adding just and I thought that was.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Perfect because the idea was it's just Willa, just.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
This ordinary human being, this ordinary woman.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
But it's also just Willa, meaning special, and she's in
the center.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
So I like having those two.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Two different levels of meaning there. I like that.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
But you know, you know what, Helen, I don't think
Willa was just any ordinary woman. What I no. I
mean many things I took from the book your mom.
You know, this character based on your mom was such
a woman of fear, determination and great and resilience. And
(10:54):
that was a tough time. Really, you know, Poor, I
know a little bit about the dust bowl. Uh, very poor,
I mean My dad was born in nineteen twenty four.
He lived during the Depression here in New Jersey. And
what he told me was they used to go from
(11:15):
apartment to apartment, and at the end of the month,
when the rent was due, they would leave so they
wouldn't have to pay any rent. They go somewhere else,
and then eventually he moved in with his uncle.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Oh excuse me, Well, so you know what sting, Yeah,
what a lot of these these people is based on.
They they were the Oakies who stayed because a lot
of people did that, they just left.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
I mean it was brutal.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I mean sometimes in some of the worst storms, you
couldn't see your hand in front of your face. I
mean it was so the sky was literally black with dirt.
So a lot of people they didn't have they just flipped,
you know, they packed everything up and they went to California,
they moved west.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
They just headed out.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
But this family, and it's partly because of my grandfather.
He was kind of entrepreneuring spirit, and he figured out
how to terrace his land and he hung on because
here's the thing, Betsy, he had, and this is what
a lot of people didn't have because of the homestead.
(12:27):
He had one hundred and sixty acres that he owned
that were his, that he could plant, the crops, that
he could run Catalan, that he could have gardens. But
it belonged to him. And I can't tell you how
important that is to people. And he didn't want to
leave his land behind. So he stuck it out and
they managed, and they, frankly, they did better than a
(12:50):
lot of people who were in town who had a
lot harder, who you know, didn't have chickens or pigs
or managed to you know, get some kind of a
garden going. So yeah, these were these were the people
who stayed and stuck it out. And many of those
people are still there hanging on. I mean a lot
(13:12):
of it's like me, I, you know, moved moved east,
got out because of the you know, I needed to
get an education and find a different way of life.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yes, And before we get into that, because though you're
a will was very big on her children being educated,
what isn't what differences between a homesteader and that tenant farmer?
Because I didn't know what a tenant farmer was. I
never heard of that till I got your book.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Well, think about what anybody who rents an apartment. Basically,
what you're doing is your renting land. You don't have
enough money to buy your own land, but you're a
farmer and you haven't been trained to do anything else.
That's the only course of work available to you. So
the landowner, often they live in town, they don't want
(14:03):
a farm. So what you can do is you can
rent land, and you would. They would often do it
on shares like two thirds to one third share. The
tenant farmer, the person renting it and working the ground,
would get two thirds of the crop and then you
would pay the landowner a third. So it's a way
for people. And sometimes you can save money, but a
(14:25):
lot of times you don't, and you often have to
have side jobs, so.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
It's it's never yours.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
So that means that you're you may if that if
that lease runs out, that means you have to find
a new place to farm. So it's just a more
precarious existence and it's really not yours. You find yourself
fixing up different ten at homes and yeah, it's it's
(14:56):
it's basically the difference between owning your own house and
renting your own house, except on a larger on a
larger school.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
So you're really a ton of farmers at the mercy
of the person who owns the land. And they don't
have a crop you know that, Yeah, that season, that harvest,
then they're up a creek because they can't afford to pay, right.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Because that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Usually you would pay in august after harvest, you'd pay
whatever you owed in august, and often you would agree
on a figure. So whether or not you got the crop.
In some years you might do better, but you know,
you could be wiped out by a hailstorm. So that's
why people needed side jobs. You had to have something
(15:45):
else you were doing, and and just willa. One of
the things the family does is they have a custom
hay bailing operation, which means they're working all the time.
They're they're bailing for other people and that they're farming
their own land. So people are literally working from five
and am in the morning until after sundown.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I mean, you just you're going.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
NonStop, you know, to make a living, especially if you've
got cool that you've got to support.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah. Yes, and you know, there was no technology back then,
so you didn't know about the weather storm was coming
up and it was so different back then, and of
course they didn't have box then they probably didn't eat. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Well, it got very tough. That's why you make plans ahead.
And now everybody cans. You have canned food that you
that you always can from your garden and you really
depend on. Even when I was growing up, we you know,
we milked our own cow. We had our own pigs
that we butchered. We had cattle that we butchered, chickens, eggs.
(16:56):
Sometimes we would sell eggs to make money. Always have
a garden, so you could really live off the land,
and then you would can I even remember my mother
in the fifties making her own soap. We had Life soap,
which is pretty.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah people did that.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, well she would save all the lard. She'd
save all the lard to make Life soap. She mostly
used it for cleaning and washing clothes. You wouldn't wash
your face with it. It was pretty well, I guess
the men did. I don't think I did, but it was.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Yeah, so you could.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Get along and you learned how to take care of yourself.
I remember only going to the grocery store once a month.
That was a big deal, you know, going to the
going to the grocery store in town.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I got hungry read in your book all the food.
Oh my god, yes, before I get into the education,
I gotta talked about the food, probably because I'm hungry
right now, but I got so hungry your your book.
And just like folks, I thought that I was in
(18:05):
this book, I was at their dinner table and you're
talking how I mean, homemade butter, homemade bread, fresh chickens.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
The chickens were the There's a dinner in the when
Willa cooks Jake the first meal, the Sunday dinner. I
think it's a chapter called Sunday Dinner. And of course
she's wanting to impress them, but she's just cooking her
ordinary meal. But she fried chicken that was so delicious.
And what they used were these small fryars, like a
(18:41):
pound and a half. So maybe you would you might
cook like six or seven chickens for the meal, but
oh my gosh, they were so good. But what Willa
was really known for was her homemade bread, which was
just yeah. And I think my my brother, who's a chef,
(19:04):
who probably was closest to my mother, he likes to
say about Mama either you either you have the feel
or you don't.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
She just had a gift.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And I'm sure you know home cooks like this.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Who Yeah, my grandmother was like that, isn't that amazing?
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Oh my gosh. She was a good cook.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
She could make anything, and it was always so delicious.
And maybe because it was fresh. I don't know if
that was part of it. A lot of it and
no refined sugar.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
We hardly ever had.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Lots of sugar, We just didn't. It was always fresh,
fresh vegetables. We don't have canned fruit because you couldn't
get a lot of fresh fresh fruit. But everything was
not processed and fresh and just delicious.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
I'll tell you what. My mouth was watering reading about
the the cinnamon fine and the bread and the butter.
I was like, oh wow, that sounds great. But yeah,
my grandmother she didn't used a recipe. I to watch
her cook. She said, Graham, right, you know you're not measuring.
She'd be a hand of This depends on that. I
(20:20):
asked my mother for her child pie recipe and she
wrote something out.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
But it's like you say, they don't really they just
do it by feel or memory or if this is
the way they've always done it, so I've never been
able to duplicate that, so.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
I think my mother couldn't.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, my mother couldn't duplicate her her mother's cooking either,
and she just shouldn't pick it up. She didn't learn it.
And your your Mumham was very determined for her children
to get an education because I I guess at that
(21:00):
time women were not allowed to well maybe go to
our high school.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Well she could have gone to high school if her
father had allowed it, but at that time it was
the norm that girls would only go to the eighth grade,
and the.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Eighth grade was it was very rigorous.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I found an old exam that those kids would take
in Oklahoma in the early thirties, and it's so rigorous
it covers every subject. I tried to take it and
I flunked it because it's too hard. I mean it's
US history, mathematics, geography. They have to answer questions about
(21:40):
taking care of animals and how much fence you need
to fence in a certain amount of acres, and it
was really and a lot of Oklahoma history, civics, composition,
even music and penmanship, and it's really really hard. So no,
she was denied an education, and Willa, my character, Willa
(22:01):
is extremely intelligent, and that really that was a huge,
huge loss for her because she had dreamed of going
on and you know, getting a degree and becoming a
teacher herself, maybe getting an advanced degree. So she was
determined that her kids get an education, particularly particularly her daughters,
(22:24):
get an education. And I always always felt that that
I really needed to go to college and do something
other than what she had, you know, to I think
she wanted me to have an easier life that she had.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I know she did.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I know she wanted me. I remember, we'll see. Once
I got so angry because.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
All of us worked, and I really wanted to drive
the tractor. And I think I was ten or eleven,
and I was certainly old. My brothers were driving a
tractor when they were seven and seven or eight, so
I could have done it, and I really really want
to do it. And my dad said, sure, you can
drive a tractor, and my mother put her foot down
and she said, absolutely not, You're not going to do it.
So while everybody else is out working, guess what I
(23:11):
was doing.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I was in the house.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I was reading because she always made sure I had
books to read.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
And that's what I was doing.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
And now I'm so grateful to her, But at the
time I was furious. I really I sold for weeks,
I think because I wasn't allowed to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yeah, and she thought you were missing out, you know,
and something. But your mother saw, you know, the bigger picture,
and that you know, in that time, education for women
was not really a high priority because they figure, well,
they'll just get married and get pregnant and have kids.
(23:53):
You know, that was the thinking back then. And Wilma
she got pregnant when she was young and had like
a I went called a shotgun wedding, which it was.
It was definitely.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Ah.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, that story cracks me up. I'm not giving everything away, Helen,
don't worry about talking about the book. But I got
to laugh. I mean really, I laughed and I cried
in this book because there's just a range of emotions
and this Jersey girl here I heard above Will then
(24:41):
I like his music actually, and that fact I read
your book, Will if I had, I said, I got
to listen to him now Helen mentioned it in her book.
Now I gotta go listen to him again. And when
I was reading about his song, I think it was
(25:02):
someone mentioned that Benny Goodman if he was playing near
bomb uh and the will willis the cherry Pounce's last.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
Name, Bob Wills will Will Uh, Well, he would go
under cover and hear Bob play, but he didn't wantnyone
to recognize him because he wanted Bob to have the.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Attention I did notting.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, well, he had a huge influence that she. Yeah,
she loved Bob Wills and he loved to dance too.
I mean, both of them loved to dance, but he
was I love his music. It's so great, uh, because.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
It was that whole new sound.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I mean, he was a huge influence, you know, that
kind of I don't know, guitars, fiddles, all.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
That stuff, saxophones, clarinet's.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
It was big, you know, it was a bigger, bigger
sound that they were used to. It was like string
bands and a horn band. So it's I guess it's
I guess you would call it Western swing, but it
exactly of music.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
It's just.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Wonderful, wowful.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I know when I was when I was writing the book,
that's what really helped me was to listen to that,
you know, listen to that music. Try to try to
listen to what Will and Jake would have listened to
what they liked, and uh, all those songs.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, yeah, that was. And then reading about Willa and
Jake going to dances. This is how universal the book is, folks.
I thought of my own parents who met at a dance.
My mom is said she was born in nineteen thirty
and she used to go to dances all the time.
(26:59):
Mm hmm. And I thought of my mom and reading
the book, and you know, my own parents love story.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Do you know, isn't that interesting, Betsy, Because Will and
Jake go to dances. This is in the thirties and forties.
And then in my own life, my own parents when
I'm growing up, they I think they went to dances
every Saturday night. That was their everybody looked forward to that.
That was the big That was the big outing with
(27:32):
Saturday night to go to a dance.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
I mean, these are country people.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
There was usually they'd go to a nearby town like
Enid or maybe yeah, usually it was probably Enid or
Alva and they would all dance and that's when they
would see their friends. Because everybody was so busy during
the week and working long hours. But on Saturday night,
Saturday night was you were off. You might work Saturday,
but then Sunday you didn't work. If you unless it
(27:58):
was harvest or something, then you would have to. But
they really looked forward to that, and you know, instead
of they didn't sit home and watch TV because nobody
had a television.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Ye, that's right. So that's why human like stories like this.
It is it it's universal. You know. It made me
think of my parents. Actually it made me think, like,
I don't I know a little bit about my mom's childhood,
but she didn't discuss much.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
You know, why didn't they They never talked.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I figured out my parents never talked about anything. Well,
I think part of it was because nobody really had
any time.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Where is the leisure?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I mean, I'm thinking when you have time to talk
is when you have some kind of leisure, and there
is There.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Wasn't any leisure.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I mean I never took a vacation until I was
I think I was in college. I went away for
a spring breaking thing, but that was the first when
I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
So there's just no leisure if you're working all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
So that's true.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
And no time to sit around and and just talk.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
When are you doing that? Yeah, it's now. I think
we have we have more time. We're lucky enough.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I mean I'm lucky enough because I got an education
and not working myself, you know, working all the time.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, there's more. Uh, we have more time, we have
more conveniences. And also you know, being brought up and
you're in that depression, especially during World War Two, because
your book takes us from you know, decades and right,
they didn't talk. They did not talk during World War
(29:49):
two what was going on because they was that's saying
loose lips, think ships.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
I know they Yeah, they did not talk. I mean
I think in New Jersey back in World War Two,
I think they had some German submarines that they saw.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Uh, you guys were closer to it, right, Uh, some.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
German so you know you and in California they had
some stuff going on, but you just you know, didn't know.
I mean, like my dad told me and then he
showed me letters he was in the war, he was
in the Navy. They would black out information what he wrote.
They didn't think it was appropriate.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Course, sure, sure they were considered, right, I have to have.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Sure you, Helen, I know you know how to research
for this book, but I you fascinate me. Uh, how
did you come up? What is your creative process? Like
you're writing, you have the characters. How did you come
up with this? Okay, I will tell you this dialogue.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Well, I will tell you I was Actually my training
was not in writing. I'm my training was in theater.
So like most theater people, I wanted to be an actor.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
And then.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I you know, studied drama and I taught theater. I
taught acting and I became really interested in improvisational theater.
And one of the things that you do with improvisation
is that you start out with a character and you
try to imagine them, and then you place them in
(31:43):
a situation and then you just sort of you know,
what do they want and what are they willing to
do to get it? So with this book, I had
my core characters. I had Will and Jake.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Well you can't.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I couldn't cover all these decades and tell you everything
about everything. There's too many stories.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
I mean, I have so much I left out of
this book. There's so many stories.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
But I think every novel you have to have so
many stories that you're able to pick and choose the.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Ones that are telling, the.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Ones that grab you, the ones that move the story forward,
the ones that reveal the characters, and of course Willa
is always the center, and you know, those core relationships
are really important. So, for example, I wanted to write
about Willa's first experience with a man when she meets
(32:47):
Big Oh, well, go ahead, okay, are we okay? So
the idea was that I would place will in a situation.
So she's just been denied the opportunity to go onto
high school. She's rebellious, she's furious at her family, so
(33:09):
she acts out, and she's in town and she meets
this older young man and he's an he's a boxer
and that's how he makes his living, and she basically
is seduced by him. So what I do is I
place Willa in a situation and then I just I
literally imagine it.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
In my head.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
I sit in my office and I just play it
out in my head as if it's unfolding in front
of me.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
What Willa will say.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I know what Charlie wants, I know what Willa wants.
I don't know where the scene's going. I have no idea,
and then I just let it play out.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
And then I.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Write it down and then I revise it, and I
revise it and I revise it. But that's basically my process.
It's basically just imagination, putting the characters in a situation,
imagining my parents first meeting Will and Jake. How did
they meet? Well, okay, they're going to meet at a dance? Well,
how does that happen? What's their first look like? What
(34:11):
are they wearing? How do they feel about each other?
Speaker 3 (34:15):
You know? Is it instantaneous?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Does it take more development? And then it just in foolds.
So it's fun, Betsy, because I can't I don't know.
I don't.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I know.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
There are writers who plot everything out beforehand and outline.
I can't do that because, frankly, it would bore me
if I know where it's headed, because I want to
be entertained too. I don't want to know what's going
to happen next and then I discover it. So that's
the fun for me of writing. So I guess I
(34:45):
can try. I make it up as I go along.
There you go, That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
I guess. Wow, well, you certainly have a talent. I
mean just the dialogue. How much is is true, like
with the characters and without giving away the plot.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
No, No, I think the the arc of the book
Will is the basic facts that is true.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Her father was a homesteader, she.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Was denied an education, she did have a shotgun wedding.
But there's so much that I don't know, so many details,
some of the big events that happened with my father
and some of the things that he does with his bootlegging. Ye,
and I just have to I had to imagine that.
(35:37):
But the general arc of it and the children she have, Yes,
she has a devastating loss. She had a daughter who
not only was afflicted with polio but became mentally ill,
was a paranoid schizophrenic, so she had to deal with that.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
So those are the facts, but those are just that's
sort of the scaffolding. But the individual scenes, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I left home, I don't know, and we didn't talk
about any of those things. So I would say most
of it is well. Actually, you know what Connie Congon
on my book Jacket said, all fiction and all true
because there's a kind of you know, there's an emotional truth,
there's a truth.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
That is true.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
That the the specifics may not be true, but that
emotion is true, that feeling is true, and that's what
I wanted the readers, readers to feel, especially, I mean,
some of those losses are just and anybody who's gone
through loss they know that.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Oh boy, yes, yes, that's why I think I cried,
you know, reading about the first loss and just you know,
your book is you know, fans decades, but it's very
relevant and people can relate to it today mental illness.
(37:06):
I'm a huge mental health care advocate, and I was
glad to see that story in your book. And how
will it you know, dealt with it? And you know
your your heart just uh breaks and it's you know,
a loss, you change you after a loss, that's just
(37:28):
the fact. You know you change and you know you
I never lost the child. I don't know how that feels.
I don't want to know how that feels. But that
is devastating, uh I. Alwa's like to lose a spouse
because I lost my spouse. And you know, Greece does
(37:48):
change you, and you know, and you've become resilient and
you learn to not get over it. You don't get
over it. You move forward. And to me, Willa was
inspirational character. She took the bull by the horns with
every situation, and it's like, you know, she would say
(38:10):
get with it. You know, she would just say, Okay,
here's the problem, right, get with it, let's take care
of it. And I just and then just all that,
she goes to like her thinking that she wasn't attractive
anymore to Jake, her husband, and she she was to Jake. Yet, well,
(38:35):
woman doesn't think that right as you're getting older, excuse me,
all these different situations Willa has gone through and just persevered,
you know, she just continued on. And that's what they
(38:55):
did back especially back then.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
They did they had to.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
And one of the reasons it is necessity because there
are no resources. I mean, there just are no resources.
You have to depend upon yourself. I mean that's when
she worked for a doctor. Willa worked for a doctor
when she was a young woman, and she learned how
to do things. And her her father was a kind
of the camp doctor and his nickname was Doc. Because
(39:23):
you had to take care of those things. You can't
be running, you know, driving fifty miles to a doctor.
You have to take care of those injuries, injuries yourself.
So they learned how to they learned how to do
things on their own. But oh it's hard, Betsy, It's
really hard, and your heart just goes out to them that,
oh my gosh. I mean not that things are easier.
(39:44):
I mean, I think things are hard now in a
different way, but it was really tough because I think
what's one of the things that moves me about Willa is.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
That she she is.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
She doesn't have a lot of support, and she has
to do it on her own. And she thinks about
that about mothers and about how mothers are rarely thanked
and they're not.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
I mean, it's just expected.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
You just do that.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
I don't know, it's it's just it's so.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
But I'm also incredibly grateful for what I learned from
these people and from my parents. It's especially not whining.
We just, you know, we didn't have a lot of rules.
You don't feel sorry for yourself. You work hard, you
pay attention.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
And you're kind. You're just kind.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
You just you know, you're a good person.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
That's what you do.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
And that's a lesson I've taken to heart my entire life.
Just those those simple things that have nothing to do
with religion.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
They just have to do with being a good person.
I know.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
I've had someone to ask me and Malifa's and nephews
what advice I would give them, and I always tell
and it was Henry James. And his advice he always
gave to his nephews was be kind, be kind, be kind.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
That was it.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Yeah, yeah, we could all just go with that.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
That's so true. And I say that always at the
end of my show too, and my show I didn't
know that, yes, yes, so yeah, and I well, well,
it grew up on a farm, so she saw, you know, cows,
(41:39):
animals dying, right, and the life cycle of of the livestock.
And you know, back if animal was injured, they would
shoot it to put out. It's misery, absolutely, yep. And
I just you know, so they learned that cycle of life,
(42:03):
not that it makes it any easier, but she witnessed,
you know, birthing of animals and the death of the animals.
And of course it's not the same as a human being.
I'm not saying that it's not, but you know, just
that's the cycle of life. You know, we live, we die, yep.
(42:24):
And I'm glad you also brought that out in your book.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Well, one of the things, and maybe this is partly
my ammission and it's it's it's what I tried to
do with the biographies because you're writing. I mean, I
always wrote about dead people, and one of the things
you want to do with a biography is to try
to bring them to life in some way.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
It's a one Critics says.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Biography is a spring task of bringing to life again.
And for me personally, just working on just Willa, writing
just Willa. I cannot bring my mother back to life.
And Willa is a fictional character. It's not my mother.
I know that, but I also know that it's what
(43:15):
I can do. I can try to get as close
as I can. If I can bring Willa back to life,
if I can make her live for you, for example,
then that makes I've achieved something because.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
I'm raising the dead.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
You know, you're bringing something that wasn't You're bringing something
to life, and that for me is everything and.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
It helps me live with with losses.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I've had to know that I can do that as
a as a writer and make something live just for
a moment. It's it makes life bearable because that's the task,
isn't it, Betsy, finding a way to live with loss,
find out way, finding a way to uh And there
are all kinds of ways people do it, and so
(44:05):
everybody's got to find that for themselves.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
What is that?
Speaker 2 (44:08):
How do you That's true?
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yeah? Yeah, that is so trul I think, Helen. In
my opinion, I think your mom would be very proud
of you, of the woman you became, the books that
you wrote. This book just willa honoring your parents' legacy.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
To me, that's what I One of the many things
I received from your book is you're honoring your mom's legacy,
and you know you did bring her back to life
in this book. And there are so many times when
(44:54):
people die, people are afraid to mention the person's name
because they're afraid that somebody might get set. Well, we know,
we know that they come tell us a memory, what
good times you had, And the book does that. You're
talking about the good times the bad times, even though
(45:15):
you know it's a fictional character based on your mom.
You are honoring your parents' memories. And I just think, Wow,
you know what, I would love to see this maid
into a movie. I really would.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
I would love I would love that too.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
I mean.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
I've had actually a.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Hollywood agent did read it and he loved it.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
But the problem is, Betsy, it's it's.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Dire times in Hollywood right now.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Yeah, it's really not a good time. So but yes,
I agree, I think it. I think would and I
think that we need we.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Need to look at the past. We need to know
what happened before and be truthful about it. I think
that's I think that's really really important. I miss writing it,
I miss working on it. I mean, these people are
(46:23):
still living in my head, even some of the smaller characters.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
They're just you know, I think about Big.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Charlie from time to time and wonder whatever happened, you know,
what could happen to him and his story? You know,
the boxer who leaves Will and goes to California.
Speaker 3 (46:40):
What was his life like out there in that world?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
They just see, you see, like writing another book about
the other characters in the book.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I'm working on something else right now that I've had
in my wall for while, trying.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
To get it right. But it's funny.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
I only write if I'm I really have to figure
something out. And one of the things I wanted to
do with just Willa was figure out who my mother
was because I really didn't know, and I think I
did that. One of the things I'd love to ask
her is I know she would be extremely proud of me,
(47:25):
but I would also love to ask her like, hey, Mama,
what did I miss?
Speaker 3 (47:28):
You know? What did I miss out when I miss something?
Speaker 2 (47:30):
And I would love to know that.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
But so I don't know.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
I'm just gonna have to get obsessed about obsessed about something.
It's the same thing when I write a short story
or an essay I have to writing for me is
I have to discover something. I have to figure something
out and then the answer is revealed to me.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
It's weird. So it's not like.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
I have a plot idea and I try to write
it down.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
So it's a strange process.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
I don't know what I'm so I'm actually I'm working
on something and hassed me for a while and I'm
trying to get it right. But it takes a long
time to get fiction right.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
I think, yeah, it does.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
You know. I'm really since doing this show, Helen, I
really come to appreciate writers, or there's writers because people
spend years on books, years writing one book, the research,
you know, the intense research that goes in. So now
when I pick up a book, I really appreciate. I
(48:35):
appreciate what the author I did. And you know, I
just want to tell the audience, if you read a
book and you appreciate that story, go in the author's
website and tell them, tell many you enjoy this book.
They want to do that.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Absolutely. I love that I have gotten some of that
with Jess Willa. People calling me or you know, writing
on my website, and I love that you.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Really want to hear.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
And what's so interesting, Bessy, is that people respond to
different things because the book is difparent from me. Now
it is itself, it's its own thing, and it has
its own relationship with readers. So I mean, everybody's going
to feel about it differently, and so that's what I
really enjoy some people relate to. I have been surprised though,
(49:25):
by how many men.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Have told me they love this book.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
That was interesting to me because I thought, okay, it's
just Willa, is this a woman's book? But no, I'm
finding out that's not true. I was on a business
podcast the other day, and we were talking about all
the and I realized as I was going preparing for that,
there's so much about making money in this book and
(49:51):
about just making a living and economics and how do
people do that, and the different characters and what their
techniques are. And I hadn't realized that about the importance
of money in the book until somebody else had mentioned that,
and I realized, oh my goodness, in about the second chapter,
Willa is counting her money, you know, and not being
(50:14):
put in charge of money. But of course that's the
reality of these people. If you're poor, you've got to
think about money a lot.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
That's true. That's true. Hell, and I know there's a
lot we that covering this book. And you are we
going to come back if you want to talk about
justin Willa again or whatever work you're doing. You're a
lovely guest. I love talking to you. How can people
buy your book? Where can I buy your book? Where
(50:43):
can then they find it? Just want?
Speaker 2 (50:46):
You can buy lots of different places. You can go
online to any of the online places.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
Bookshop dot org is one.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
You can go to your favorite bookstore. It's really it's
really out there, So just go online. If you want
more information about me, you can go to my website.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Helenshehey dot org. I couldn't get a dot com because
that website was taken.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
By a lawyer in Dublin, Ireland, so I'm a dot org.
Speaker 3 (51:16):
But there's more information.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
There's also information about more information about the book. But yeah,
so yes, or eventually go to your library. I'm not
sure if it's in libraries yet. It's probably on its
way there, but yeah, please go buy the book. Find
out about Jake and Willa.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Yes, folks, I barely scratch the surface. There's so much
s unpack with us. Will I highly highly recommend you
buying this book, mat fact, buy two, buy one for yourself.
I wanted to gift for someone because I know they'll
enjoy it. Does the book can be given at any time,
(52:03):
you know, I'll tell you as a former caregiver, which
I still am a caregiver, this book has caregiving in it. Folks,
you're a caregiver, Yeah, this book is caregiving in it.
Oh it does? It does really well. Was a caregiver
then a phenomenal one. I just so love this book, Helen,
(52:24):
Congratulations for job well done. I don't know what you're
going to do for an encore because this was really
I know you have something up your sleeve, but this
was really phenomenal. And thank you so much for writing
just Willa coming on the show, and thank you, thank
(52:50):
you so much.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
I really enjoyed this all.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
Right, take care You're welcome. Take care, Willa, Willa. Thanks,
take care Helen, folks, so that I got will on
that on my mind, folks. All the information that Helen
Shehy can be found in the blog that Genie Waite,
station manager writes. And I want to thank Lonean Caldwell,
(53:13):
CEO Pashuwall Talk Radio. That makes it all possible. And
I want to thank you the listeners, so thank you
for listening. If you know the race, subscribe to Johnny
with Betsy, please do so. It's for free on Amazon Music, Spotify, Speaker.
And I want to give a shout out to Lisa
Warren who ranges this interview. Lissa Warren is president of
(53:38):
Lissa Warrent p R. Phenomenal, phenomenal publicist. And I wanted
to thank Helen Shehey again. What a book, folks, what
a story, what a novel. I'm telling you you will
not be disappointed. And if you want to follow me,
I'm on Facebook. That's the Worzel w or Z. And
(54:01):
as I always say at the end of my show,
in a world where you could be anything, please be
kind and shine your life bright because we need it
now more than ever before. This is Betsy Worthal. You're
a host of Chiney with Betsy. I'm Passion World Talk
Radio Network, a subsidiary of Global Media Network LLC. Bye
(54:24):
bye now
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