Online Harassment and Women’s Resistance

🎙 When words become weapons, women rise in resistance.

 👉 Listen now as Betsy Wurzel and Alia Dastagir expose the hidden toll of online harassment — and celebrate the strength of women who refuse to stay silent.

In this episode of Chatting with Betsy, host Betsy Wurzel speaks with journalist and author Alia Dastagir about her groundbreaking book To Those Who Have Confused You to Be a Person: Words as Violence and Stories of Women’s Resistance Online. Alia opens up about the emotional toll of online harassment, including death and rape threats from strangers, revealing how digital abuse harms mental health and silences women’s voices. Together, Betsy and Alia explore why stronger protections and clearer social-media guidelines are urgently needed. Their conversation shines a light on how words can wound, yet also shows the power of women’s courage and connection in the face of hate. 

📚 To Those Who Have Confused You to Be a Person is available now.

💡 Learn more about Alia’s work at aliadastagir.com.

 📌 Follow Passionate World Talk Radio on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your favorite platform — and never miss the real conversations that matter.




Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/chatting-with-betsy--4211847/support.

🎙 Passionate World Talk Radio Network LLC — Where real conversations matter.
📧 Contact us: [e-mail]
🌐 Visit: www.passionateworldtalkradio.com
📲 Follow & share with #PWTRN

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, this is Betsy Worthal. You're a host of
Chatting with Betsy. I'm passion or World Talk Radio Network,
a subsidiary of Global Media Network LLC.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
I we're a monstrous to educate, ENLiGHT in, and entertain.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
The views of the guest may not represent those hosts
of stations. Folks, I'm going to tell you about my
guests when I'm very excited. I'm always excited when I
do a show, and today it's no exception.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
With me.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Today I have all the Adosta gear.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
She is a former reporter for USA Today who frequently
covers gender and mental health. She was one of a
US recipients of the prestigious Roslin Carter Fellowships for Mental
Health Journalism. Ali also has won many awards. I encourage

(00:53):
everyone to google Google Alia a doostigear. But he is
also author and writer this fantastic book.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Folks, you have ever been.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Bullied online, you need to read this book. And if
you haven't been bullied online yet, you need to read
this book so you know what to do. The name
of the book is to those who have confused you
to be a person. Words as violence and stories of

(01:26):
women's resistance online and I want to welcome Alia Dastigart
chatting with Betsy.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Thank you, Betsy, thank you so much for having me.
I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Oh, you are welcome. I just admire your work. And
this is your first book, ALLYA.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yes, it is my first book. You know. I think
when you finish a project like this, maybe sometimes you
feel like your last book. It's such an undertaking, you know,
in many ways, this project started in gosh. I had
a newborn baby when I first conceived of it, and
now she's going into first grade, so.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Quite a labor.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
But yes, it's my first book, and I really got
a taste of how much kind of goes into something
like this. I had somebody, if you before I started
writing it, who was kind of like, are you sure
you don't want to write a thirty thousand word magazine
piece instead? And I couldn't understand why they were trying
to talk me down. But but yeah, it's my first

(02:25):
and I'm very proud of it, and I'm so glad
to be here talking to you and you know, hopefully
educating your listeners.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, thank you for writing the book. Number one.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Congratulations on your book and your children. That's you know,
wonderful and you should be proud of yourself. I admire
anyone who writes a book because I can't write. I
don't like to write it rather talk. But I really
thank you book. How did you come up with your tie?

(03:00):
Which is a very different type of title for sure?

Speaker 3 (03:05):
And I was really impressed that you were able to
pronounce it correctly. You know, it's it's I know. Sometimes
I have moments where I'm like, ah, you know, should
I have called it back? Because I do hear people
stumble over it so much. But then I sort of
remember where the kind of idea came from, and it
was sort of it was intended to make people kind

(03:27):
of stumble, right, it's something you sort of stumble on.
It's grammatically incredibly awkward. There's sort of a you know
what is the you know what is this? I mean
certainly as a title, right, you have no sense of
what this is. It's actually a line that shows up
in the book a couple of times. It was an
excerpt of a message that was sent to me by

(03:49):
a user. I think it was back in early twenty twenty. Ironically,
this user was very agitated about a story that I
had written. Actually on online abuse of women journalists. But
but the sort of the story was tied to the
death of Kobe Bryant, and that was an incredibly sort

(04:13):
of difficult moment I think, you know, sort of in
the in the culture, in the sort of wider public
discourse where people were sort of grappling with that, with
his death and what his death meant and what his
life meant and all sorts of questions, really fraught questions
around harm and sort of redemption and what's possible. Just

(04:35):
a very complicated conversation. So this user was very upset
about a story that I wrote that they perceived me
being I guess sort of callous in you know, sort
of regarding Brian's death. And so I believe the user
was a he, so a sen sensibly he and he
wrote me a message. It was a very long message,

(04:56):
and part of it, in part of it, he said,
you know, I'm sorry to those who have confused you
to be a person, because you are not a person.
And it was such a you know, I've I've had
a lot of you know, people say a lot of
things to me over the course of my career online,
but this one in particular was so chilling and so discomforting,

(05:21):
and and and kind of stayed with me for a while,
I think for a lot of reasons. But one of
the reasons is because because of that that particular language
and the kind of awkwardness of it, and the certainly
the sentiment. But there was there was something about it
that was not quite clear to me initially, and I
think that, you know, when I was thinking about kind

(05:42):
of the spirit of this book and you know, how
I wanted to introduce this book to the world into readers,
I was thinking, you know, this is a huge piece
of the kind of problem that sometimes gets kind of
obscured or is missed, which is that it's absolutely you know.
You know, it's easy to kind of know what somebody
sending a death threat or a rape threat thinks of you.

(06:04):
It's a lot harder to kind of sit with these messages,
you know. And one could argue this isn't a subtle message.
I mean, they're basically dehumanizing me. But but but I
think for me, it was hard to kind of it
took more labor to kind of sit with this message
and to really kind of consider what this person was
saying to me, and then maybe to also sort of,
you know, go through this process myself where I where

(06:26):
I was kind of like do I deserve it? I mean,
like what, you know, what is this person saying and
why are they saying it? And what did I kind
of do and all of these you know sort of
questions you kind of ask yourself. So so the title
was born out of this statement that was made to
me that I think, in some ways encapsulates a sort
of a few things, right, like one that like these

(06:49):
are can be incredibly dehumanizing experiences right for the center
and for the receiver in many cases of these messages.
And then also that that there are elements of this
that can be cognitively kind of confusing and then could
take up more space in our brains and our lives
than many people might imagine, right they think, oh, you

(07:11):
just get this, you know, somebody calls you a mean name,
and then you can kind of just walk away. And
it's not always quite that. I mean, it's not that
right because a lot of this language, of course, is
also tied to how we're being treated, how many of
us are being treated in our offline lives, and sort
of the material conditions of our offline lives. But yeah,
it's an incredibly difficult title to say, and so it

(07:32):
always be pause when I hear someone introducing it, I'm like,
are they gonna say it right? But you did a
great job, and that's the kind of origin origin of
the title. I hope it makes people sort of pause
in a bookstores. That was my hope.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well, yes, I's definitely catchy.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
You know, I've a lot of authors and you.

Speaker 1 (07:51):
Know, getting it like your book in a bookstore that's
a huge achievement. And catching somebody's eye is very important.
But the book is extremely important.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
And what it says on there.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
Did you what mother than to you to write this
book than was your personal experience?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Plus you interviewed.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
People women who were suffered abuse online. And you know
what I thought when I was reading your book, Aliya
is I thought a lot of things, but I was thinking,
who in the world half the time to bully people?

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Don't you have a life? And what gives someone?

Speaker 1 (08:42):
You know, people are very brazen out behind the keyboard,
and I think, oh, you have said this on many shows.
And a world where we're so connected with our devices,
we're at the same time so disconnected with our humanity.
Like to just tosult somebody and bully and you know,

(09:02):
threaten them like you were threatened.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
They threatened your family, I mean over an article that
you don't agree with.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Get a life, people, I mean, that's just just really
what I was thinking. I barely I mean, I'm be
honest with you, folks, I barely applied how to do
what I have to do.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
And catching up on my social media.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
I wouldn't even have time to argue with someone, nor
do I want to scroll on by?

Speaker 2 (09:30):
And why don't people do that?

Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, I mean that's all. Yeah, I understand. Yeah, and
I totally understand that sort of that Yeah, that reflects
I mean certainly I felt it or that sort of
I understand that sort of that way of kind of
thinking about the problem because I think, you know, for
myself too, I'm not a digital native. I didn't kind
of grow up with social media. It's not really a

(09:54):
place that you know, I can recognize it as a
place that can be, that has been an continues to
be an enormously important place for a lot of people,
and sort of the Internet at large right to be
this incredibly sort of rich, connective Uh yeah, just sight

(10:14):
of power, right, and and and democratization for a lot
of people and giving voice to a lot of people.
It isn't a place that has that I have, you know,
you know, social media is not something and I'm sort
of inherently kind of drawn to. And I do have
even moments where I'm like, I'll see something online that
I that makes me, you know, incredibly angry or that

(10:35):
I find is incredibly harmful. I think it was probably
you know, after the last presidential election. I had seen
some videos and I on maybe on TikTok, and I
like kind of like almost and I'm not even saying
that people shouldn't you know, you know, use these comments
sections in a in a you know, to obviously express critique,
but I kind of like almost said something in a

(10:56):
way that I think I would have like deeply regretted.
But I sort of fought the impulse. But I think
that the you know, so I think that we can
all sort of become susceptible right to the norms of
behavior in these spaces. But I also think that sometimes
when we think about kind of the problem of online
abuse or online harassment or online violence, we tend to
think and this is in large part because it's you know,

(11:19):
mainstream media coverage.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Right.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
We do tend to think of online abuse as something
that's like very much about you know, trolls, right, Like
people individual people who are just so discontent or disaffected
or antisocial or lonely or whatever it is, and they
kind of go into these spaces and they create a
lot of chaos, right. And certainly trolls are you know,

(11:43):
part of his story right about you know, kind of
what's happening in these online spaces. But I also think that,
you know, one of the things I try to sort
of underscore in my book is that if we just
think about the problem like that individual piece will fully,
we sort of are kind of cognitively containing the problem

(12:04):
in a way that is sort of you know, can
be really dangerous, right, because there's lots of reasons that
people get into these spaces and harass and abuse other
people and against some of its norms of behavior online.
But some of it is money, and some of it
is political goals. Right there, there are and I think

(12:25):
also you know, in many cases and then this is
true for what I experience as well, Like you know,
sometimes you know, these are very coordinated efforts to shut
groups of people online down to shut certain individuals down, right,
So so there's an organized, very sort of strategic element
to this. And and of course, right we're talking about

(12:47):
when we're talking about online harms, we're talking about something enormous, right,
because harm is a big word. And and I think
anybody that has spent I mean, even in your introduction,
you know, you know a lot of people have experienced this.
You know some you know may not yet but may
know somebody that this kind of happened to. But like,
this is a problem that sort of spans the ideological

(13:08):
and political spectrum for sure, right, Like, in some ways
anybody can be targeted online. But I do think it's
worth sort of noting and kind of stressing that there
are certain people who are disproportionally targeted, disproportionally you know,
affected by this. And it tends to be you know,
people who are sort of already discriminated against in offline spaces, right,

(13:33):
who already sort of struggle to be able to express
themselves freely, to speak freely, to sort of move through
the world safely. And so then you go into these
online spaces and you sort of the same things are
kind of replicated, right, where you're discriminated against, where you're
not safe, where you're sort of where you're targeted, right,

(13:54):
So so there is an element. So yes, of course
there's this like issue of you know, again the sort
of the norms of behavior online that sort of desensitize
us to you know, make us you know, not see
each other or even ourselves right as kind of human
in these spaces. But there's also sort of this larger

(14:14):
kind of more strategic, more of more kind of you know,
I guess political problem of certain groups of people being
disproportionately targeted and then really sort of you know, many
of them kind of shut out, right or or that's
the goal, right to sort of shut them out of
online spaces, civic spaces, political life, civic life, And that

(14:38):
to me is is why this is an issue that
sort of everyone should care about, whether or not they
have experienced it directly, right, because we want I think
you know it part of this sort of American project.
We really should want the most amount of speech in
a society, the most amount of healthy discourse, the most

(15:00):
voices is you know, as many voices as possible. But
the way that you know, things sort of are on
now and are online now, and how this abuse is
allowed to proliferate doesn't allow for that.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Well, yet there's a lot of stuff that I say
online I don't agree with. I'm not on TikTok or x,
and I've been very fortunate that I, you know, if
not been target only one time I had a problem
that was on Facebook, and I took care of this.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
It wasn't that big of a problem. But you know, if.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
It makes you, I mean, if I was continuously harassed threatened,
I wouldn't want to go online.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, so then you're shutting me down. And if I'm
a journalist and that's my job, I'm not going to
want to do it. And then I got a fear,
and then it takes a toll.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
Stress, folks, affects your body in so many ways and
then affects your health, your mental health, your emotional health,
firtual health. And you know, and I saw that scene
many times in your book. I've read finished your book
in August, So forgive me if I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Everything.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
I'm a middle aged woman here, excuse me, but what
I just encountered something just once and it was on Facebook.
And that's when when my husband was alive, and I
showed him hostinating hit Alzheimer's and I said something to
the fact of, you know, this is what bothers me.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
I can't stop it.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
I'm suffering watching him suffer. And the writer said something like, well,
how do you think he feels? How dare you write that?
And I went back at her and I said, listen,
that's why I said what I said. Because people don't
think it's suffering to me. It is to me. It's
a mental suffering. Now that's my opinion. And I told her,

(17:05):
you don't like it, scroll you could black me, you
could scroll on by. And I used to tell people this.
I used to be shy and quite at one time.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
And I said, you don't like what.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
I write on my page, then scroll on by. Because
I don't allow bullying. My page is a safe place,
my support group is a safe place. I won't allow bullying.
And I don't know like you know. And I'm the
person who was page that. This was wasn't my page.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
It was.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
I was helping her out with her page. She said,
I'll Betsy, you should just left it alone. I would
have taken care of it. And I said no. She
came after me and I want her to.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Know that what a caregiver goes through, you're helpless and
to watch someone go through something and you can't stop it. So,
you know, this is what I want to put a
course to the person who watched the video. But uh,
you know, just I really admire journalists and other people

(18:11):
who go online when they're safety and then jeopardy. Yeah,
and you know, I don't agree with a lot of stuff,
haven't it see theories I've seen lately. I mean, it's
just I said, I don't even have time for this.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
These people just to.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Me, they're whacked, so I'm not going to argue with them.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
And I think it's.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, as you don't tell that story yet, it makes
me think a few things. I mean, one, first of all,
I'm sorry that interaction sounds incredibly painful. I imagine around
you know, you being sort of publicly vulnerable, and that's
one of the things that the book to kind of
explores that people at work, women especially who who who
sort of make themselves publicly vulnerable in online spaces are

(18:57):
sort of even more at risk for you're in seeing
this kind of abuse, whether they're being publicly vulnerable about something,
you know, you know, some part of their past or
some part of their life or their story, or if
they're being publicly vulnerable about their online abuse. Right, there's
there's this that vulnerability becomes a sort of that public

(19:18):
vulnerability becomes like another sort of attack factor for people.
And I think that that and I know based on
my interviews, that that can be you know, incredibly painful.
I mean sometimes even re traumatizing. If you're somebody who
you know, who is a survivor of sexual violence and
being publicly vulnerable about sexual violence, and then you have
somebody come online and say something to you that sort

(19:40):
of brings up, right like every shame or fear or
or touches on things right like that are things that
you have worked really hard to to sort of heal from.
That can be incredible, incredibly re traumatizing. And so that
interaction sounds incredibly painful. I think that, you know, a
couple of other things I was thinking as you were talking,
is yes, I mean I think that you know, when

(20:02):
I interviewed you know, people you know about the kind
of physical physiological impacts, When I interviewed sort of medical
professionals and doctors and neuroscientists about the sort of impacts
of online abuse. They were very clear to sort of
state that, you know, experiencing something once, right, you know,
and if somebody says something terrible to you once, even

(20:23):
if it isn't extremely again sort of painful, you know,
difficult interaction that happens one time. You know, you can
you can work through it, right, you can external it.
Sounds like you externalized it to somebody, right, you said,
like I had to say this, This is something I
had to say. You you you you you can do
all sorts of things to sort of cope with that
and move through it and kind of you know, kind

(20:46):
of move on right with your life. The issue becomes,
as you said, in certain for certain people, and in
certain professions, and often in professions that are sort of
really vital to the to a functioning democracy, right, journalists, searchers,
you know, disinformation experts, you know, politicians, right, especially female politicians.

(21:07):
I mean you're talking about, you know, people who are
experiencing these kinds of attacks relentlessly, relentlessly, And that is
where you start to see the problem in terms of
those you know kind of I mean in terms of
real sort of long term right, kind of physical impacts.

(21:27):
I mean, because it is when your body doesn't have
a chance to recover right from that heightened state of fireflight,
that you become at risk of chronic stress, right, and
that kind of chic chronic stress is the thing that
can ultimately sort of kill you, right, It's increasing your
certain form of cancer or heart disease, all that kind

(21:49):
of stuff. So it's always very interesting to me. So yes,
I mean, I think, yes, there's a really big difference
between experiencing an isolated event right online of line abuse
or harassment, which still you know, can be difficult and
you know, you know, pay difficult, sort of painful experience,
and experiencing these kinds of attacks, relentlessly identity paced attacks,

(22:12):
often right with and with ultimately real concerns, you know,
for for for safety online and off. And I think
that the last thing that I would sort of say
about that is it sounded like, you know, one of
the things that was very important to you in that
moment was being able to say back to this person

(22:33):
something right like it was it seemed like there was
something that was incredibly uncomfortable to you about absorbing this
and then just kind of deleting the comment or walking
away or not, there was something that felt very important
to you about responding. And I think that's really interesting.
That's something that I sort of learned through my interviews,
where you know, a lot of the advice that you

(22:53):
get around how to kind of cope with your you know,
deal with your online abuse, and the safest way possible
is really not to speak back, right and to not confront.
But it's the case that so many of the women
that I interviewed absolutely were confrontational, and in many cases
they felt that this was really important for them, whether

(23:15):
it was to correct the truth right, or to correct
the record right, to say the truth about about their
about their work, or about who they are, or it
was you know, they really wanted to call out bigotry
or call out you know, violence, or call out harm,
and so it was sort of like they could not
suffer the abuse and then having to be quiet about

(23:39):
the abuse. And I think that that's just a really
interesting sort of piece of this again in the sense
that it's it's a lot of the advice you get
from sort of digital safety experts, and I totally understand why,
you know, because all of us are not being attacked
by the same people, right, Like some of us are
being attacked by trolls, some of us by organized crimes,
some of us by our governments. Right, So I totally

(23:59):
get that advice. You also sometimes see it institutionally, even
where the institutions that you work for instruct you do
not speak back, like do not speak back to to
you know this this outright lie or this abuse, like
do you have to say quiet? It becomes almost, you know,
a policy that you need to sort of that you
need to follow in order to be adhering right to

(24:21):
your institution's kind of you know, protocol for you know,
how to behave on social media, for example.

Speaker 4 (24:28):
But I think that, yeah, I'm just going to ask
me I had I was told not to speak, and
I don't think that was necessarily It's not that it's
ill meaning, but it also can be just another form
of disempowerment.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
So I understand your impulse just want to speak. And
it's certainly something that I heard from the women that
I interviewed too, that like being able to speak back
sometimes was incredibly important and empowering in a situation that
feels so disempowered.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yes, And it's a fine line, I think, Audia, because
they say that, you know, bullies or really cowards turned
inside out, and they say sometimes if you confront the bully,
they'll back down, but sometimes they don't, don't come back
even stronger.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
So it's it's, you know, it's like, then what do
you do? And then they get.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Their friends or their organization whatever they want to to,
you know, jump on your page and add you know,
to their nonsense as I call it, and harassment.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
I think, you know, you mentioned in the book it's.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Mostly men that are harassing women, women of color. People
who are in the lbgt Q plus community are getting.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
You know, h harassed.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
People if you don't agree with them politically or getting harassed.
We have her, you know, everyone has a right to
their opinion. Have I see something that a journalists throw
and I don't agree with it on LinkedIn? I don't
have the energy I got and I'm not a good writer,
so I just won't courn't.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
And I think if people would.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Just just you know, stap and I just want to
yell from my phone, please people bring back your humanity.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
Nobody would ability your civility. I think, yeah, it's yeah,
it's it's interesting when you say that too, But I
think you make such a good point about the about
the like fine, it's like you when you do choose, however,
you choose to deal with your abuse, right and especially
if you choose to sort of speak out against it,
either directly to the person sort of perpetrating that harm

(26:53):
or to speak out more broadly about it, there is
a real risk, right. Like I've interviewed women who say
that when they fought back in their comments, it did
shut people down, like they were they were able to
sort of quiet their comments sections. And then you talk
to other people who say, absolutely it fanned the flames.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Right.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
So, I think the whole the sort of the point
you know that I think is important to make around
that is that you know, as long as the problem
of sort of dealing with online abuse rests with the
individual user, right when it's really your problem to solve,
then that is where you kind of get caught up

(27:33):
in all these kind of difficult sort of situations and
all these kind of double binds and all these you know,
quote unquote solutions that also have you know, a lot
of kind of drawbacks and penalties and risks involved. And
that is why it is so important, they think, ultimately,
for you know there, you know, for for there to
be real sort of meaningful kind of structural reform around

(27:57):
online abuse, because because it can't be an individual person's
problem to solve, that also sort of also just leads
to this again, this misperception that this isn't this isn't
this is a problem that is really just about individual people,
an individual person getting upset at another individual person. And again, yes,

(28:18):
of course like online yes we're there's of course like
going to be those kinds of scuffles and battles and
interpersonal sort of harms. But also again we're talking about,
or at least I'm trying to talk about, a broader
sort of you know, systematic, strategic, kind of coordinated effort

(28:41):
to shut down certain kinds of people who have historically
used the Internet to give voice to their lives and
their experiences and their hopes for a society that they
never could before because there was no space and place
for them to do that. So when you sort of

(29:01):
talk about you know, that example that you give about LinkedIn,
where you see something that you kind of disagree with
and you move on, I'm not saying that I don't
share that tendency. I'm swer that I have different outlets
for that. But I also think there are a lot
of people who sort of view again the few of
the Internet as this place where they could speak right
in a in a quote unquote public square or some
version of it, right where historically they were not able to,

(29:25):
like there was no way right to tell the true
story about what it what it has been like to
live in this country as an indigenous person, or what
it is really like to live in this country as
as a black woman. Right like to to be able
to tell the truth about about their their lives and
their experiences. And that's such a such a gift, right

(29:48):
that the Internet has given us, That these online spaces
has given us like the space to be able to
to self define and to debate and to you know,
circulate so many kinds of ideas. But I think yes,
but I think that like again that the because there
was such poor because there is such poor sort of

(30:10):
planning and like sort of anti there was so such
more planning at the outset, and such a there was
a there was an assumption of risk that the people
who sort of built these systems thought we could all tolerate,
and it was based on the risks that really a
certain kind of person could tolerate, right, like a white
person or a man right could tolerate. And it isn't

(30:31):
the case that we can all tolerate that same level
of risk for a number of reasons. And that doesn't
make us weak or fragile or sort of overwrought. It's
just the reality of what it means to be, you know,
a sort of vulnerable or a marginalized person in our society.
So so yeah, that's my my sorry, my long winded
was saying that. I think it's I think, yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Bring out a lot and I'm thinking, here, you're you're
talking as you bring out a lot of A great
point is that probably most men, and you could tell
me if I'm wrong, they might get comments, they don't
get the abuse as women do. I mean, that's just
coming in the workplace. And I think that when you

(31:18):
know people have been traumatized in their life and then
they go online.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
And they feel free to express themselves and.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Then people are just nasty, it really traumatizes them. It
triggers them. And folks, if you don't know what that's like,
be glad you don't know what it's like.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
But have empathy for people that do know what that
is like.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
And reading your book, they made me sad for some
of these women, I mean all of them that had
these situations in your situation. I mean, I don't know
what I would do, to be honest with you. I
think I'd be afraid to go back online.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
And I think people are you know, and that's just.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
You know, not right.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Everyone has We are free speech in this country, at
least we used to and hopefully we still do. But
when you know, I get that old saying why can't
we agree to disagree? I mean, I believe everything that
you know that you might write.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
An article, Oh yeah, does that mean I have a
right to go on and you know, degrade you? But
little you know, this is the thing.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
These people, these bullies keep more bullies as.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
I call them.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
They wouldn't talk that way to you in person. They
wouldn't talk to these people that way in person because
they might get assaulted themselves physically.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yeah, yeah, I think that you're you're yeah, yeah. I
think that The point that you're making that I think
is is you know so true, right, is that the
the barrier for becoming a threat to somebody has been
lowered so much, and it's really scary out there for
for for a lot of people online. I mean, you know,

(33:17):
even just you know, yes, my book is about women
because I you know, was very interested in exploring abuse
that sort of perpetuates hierarchies of power.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
But again, as I said sort of earlier, that this
is a problem that you know of correspands the ideological
and political spectrum, and it affects men too. I just
saw a well known, you know, a very popular influencer,
male influencer, who was you know, talking today about his
own fears of of of of of harm you know,

(33:49):
related to you know, I think in many cases talking
about physical harm, you know, as as it relates to
the sort of moment that we're in kind of you know,
just thinking about the news in the last few days
and the this that has captivated the nation, right this
this this incident of political violence that has been so
you know, distressed, distressful and and damaging and and all

(34:12):
of the kind of conversation around that, and so you know, yes,
you hear male influencers and influencers of all you know,
sort of political persuasions talking about their sort of fears
and concerns in the moment. But I think that what
is true and undeniable, and the data sort of supports
that it is that men and women have very different
experiences of the Internet. Like it's just the it's just

(34:33):
a fact that we have very different experiences online because
we have very different experiences of the offline world. Right,
And these things are not as much as people would
like to claim that these are entirely sort of separate realities.
They're They're really not right all the you know, you
said the word humanity several times, right, this is this

(34:54):
is systems that are built by human beings, and that
human beings are going into these places, is operating this,
creating it, you know, creating content, using it. I mean,
these are this this is a human problem, right, this
is this is yes, this is a technical technological problem,
but this is a sort of a human problem. And
and so the the Internet is experienced very differently by

(35:16):
different groups of people. And you know, I was just
reading and I think there's a great you know, if
people are sort of interested in this. There's another book
that just came out a few days ago by Laura Bates,
and it's all about the sort of you know how
AI and and other kind of emerging technologies are are
are also sort of changing the way that misogyny is

(35:40):
experienced by women in online spaces. And and you know,
there's like incredibly distressing data that she cites in her
book where she talks about a lot of you know,
image based abuse, and she's you know, writing about the
fact that like most of the people who are using
these apps, that these AI apps, right that will take

(36:03):
an image, that can take an image of a person
and create a fake nude image or a fake nude
video or a fake video. The people who are using
the technology predominantly are boys and men. It's not women
who are going and uploading photos of men, you know,
our videos of men, Like women are not using revenge boards,
luck is a way to like systematically abuse and silence men.

(36:25):
So you know, it's just I mean, that's just one
piece of it, right, But it's a very obvious place
where you can see that, like even the newer technologies
that are emerging, right, like, they are being used to
create harm for women, for certain groups of people, and
it just does not vote well. Again, this becomes a
huge sort of kind of conversation that needs to be

(36:48):
not just about like interpersonal civility or sort of you know,
bullying or lack of bling or yes, we need to
teach our children like so many things about how to
good citizens and how to have media literacy and empathy
and all of that. But also we're talking about systems
that were built without certain groups of people in mind

(37:10):
and continue to evolve again without really considering the risks
to like the most vulnerable people in these spaces. And
so you then have these new technologies being rolled.

Speaker 5 (37:23):
Out with with that are that creates so much that
create harm, and then it becomes like a oh oops,
now we have to go back and fix that, except
we can't really roll it back all the way.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
And it's just this is a system's issue, is what
I'm trying to say. This isn't This is an issue
of systems, and it has to be addressed in this
multifaceted sort of systematic way, or else you're just again
left with people on the internet who who really feel
and do not just feel, who really have no recourse
when harms are committed against them.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
I feel like a lot of these media companies need
to set boundaries, rule boundaries, whatever you want to call
it and saying, you know, this is not acceptable.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
We will not have this on our.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
You know, Facebook community standards, Yeah, guidelines, yes, and sometimes
you know, I know, Facebook is very strict, although sometimes
I don't know, I can't figure it out. I post,
I've posted about, you know, Alzheimer's, and I've gone to

(38:39):
Facebook jail and then I see people doing porn and
nothing happens to them.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yeah, yeah, is very consistent.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
And you know what, has it been told to you
because you know, or a journalist and you worked, you know,
for USA, has it been told to you?

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Oh, that's part of the job, just you know, ignore it.

Speaker 3 (39:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the number one.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Like what is with that?

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think actually, let me revise that.
I I don't even know if anybody ever said to
me directly, you need to ignore it. You need to
grow thicker skin, you need to you know, this is
just part of the job. It's funny. I actually can't
think of like somebody explicitly saying that to me. And

(39:35):
I feel like I had a very I mean, I
did have a very supportive editor, a female editor while
I was working there, who was really you know, sort
of captain and understood power and gender and the kind
of dynamics and the difficulties that you know, I was
sort of facing with my byline out there. But I
think that and that's what's so interesting about all of

(39:57):
these kinds of I guess that's what's interesting about sort
of attitudes and ideas. Right It's like you don't even
really know where you hear something, or when you absorb something,
or when you start to you know, when you begin
believing something. But I think that I believed that, like
I very much believed that this was a part of
the job and that it was and that it was

(40:18):
something that I was going to have to deal with
in a very sort of unemotional way in order to
be able to continue to write on the kinds of
topics that I was writing about. I think that that
was a message that I had internalized, and I if
I'm reflecting on why, I mean, I think that the
fact is is that there wasn't anybody in my newsroom

(40:42):
that I heard kind of talking about that, right, Like,
it wasn't something that even if it was happening, even
if it was happening to other women, or if it
was happening to sort of the mart you know, the
folks in the newsroom who were you know, who were marginalized, right,
the queer folks or the people of coloring. That was
not something that was being openly discussed. And so maybe

(41:04):
I made an incorrect assumption right about how other people
were dealing with it and how I was supposed to
deal with it. And I think probably also by that point,
so my abuse really ramped up twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,
and I do remember seeing you know, headlines and and things,
you know, that were being put out there by well

(41:25):
known sort of feminist writers and bloggers were talking about
the unacceptability of this abuse, and yet like it, there
wasn't really any sort of meaningful effort to kind of
address what these writers, what these feminist writers were saying.
So I think that it was something that I came
to believe was true that I would need to sort

(41:46):
of just ignore, quote unquote ignore it. And I think that,
you know, in the process of writing the book, I
was able to kind of better distill what I think
we mean when we say ignore, because I think that
sometimes people say when sometimes when people say just ignore it,
I think they mean don't react, And that's one thing.

(42:08):
And I think other times when people say just ignore it,
they mean don't feel. And that latter part was the
part that was so strange to me, I think internally,
because I was I am.

Speaker 6 (42:21):
A deeply feeling person who absolutely was reacting to these
messages almost every time I got them, like and I
think it feels even a little difficult to sort of
admit that out loud, because you know, earlier we're talking
about public.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Vulnerability, like it makes me a target right to tell
people these things bother me, but they really really bothered me.
I mean I would I would write a story, and
you know, especially the stories that you know, you know,
sometimes you write and you get a couple of messages.
Sometimes you write and you get a day loge. Sometimes

(42:57):
you write and the mob comes. And I would say
in that middle area where I would write a story
where you know, every like, you know, fifteen minutes or so,
I get a new sort of email or paying or whatever,
and that would kind of continue all day long as
related to that story, Like it would really affect me,
Like I would try to be going about my day
and it would just And that's the thing about this right,

(43:19):
these experiences, you know, online, they become so deeply inescapable,
like you cannot get away from it. And people are like, oh, well,
just don't look at your phone. It's like we use
our phone to do almost everything. Yeah, in sort of
modern society, so like, what do you mean don't look
at your phone? And even if you silence the halves
or you turn off your notifications or whatever, like, they'll

(43:42):
find ways to get at you. They'll like try to
for example, they'll try to hack your Instagram or something.
So like, yeah, sure, I turned off my notifications, but
now I see that somebody's trying to hack me. I
know that it's still going on, Like it really becomes
it really does become inescapable. And so I was not
ignoring it in any kind of meaningful way. And I

(44:04):
think part of the process of of you know, starting
to write the book was was was trying to answer
that question, that fundamental question, which is like, well, why
can't I write if society is sort of expecting me to,
if they're sort of saying that's the way to deal, right,
just like just ignore it, like just not look at it.
It's not real. Just log off, Like why am I

(44:25):
having such touch a tough time, and then you know,
that question ultimately ends up leading me to the conclusion,
right that nobody is really ignoring it in the way
that maybe we sort of would like them to write. Like,
people are not ignoring language, they're not ignoring threats, they're
not ignoring fear, they're not ignoring rejection, they're not ignoring malice.
They're taking that in and then they're doing something with it.

(44:48):
And maybe they're you know, compartmentalizing it, or they're speaking
back and confronting, maybe they're reporting to the platforms, maybe
they're externalizing it to a friend, maybe they're making a
joke about it, whatever they're but they're doing something with it.
And I think that that's really just something important for
everybody who's listening to like really try to kind of appreciate,

(45:10):
which is that like that that language and those images
and that violence and that harm that's being perpetrated against you.
It just doesn't it goes. You absorb that and then
you make choices conscious and unconscious about what to do
with it. But it's not ignorable. And I think in
the way that I think some people make claim.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
That it is, no it's it's not especially I'm if
I remember correctly, you even call the police because of threats?

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Now, at what point it's like do you call the police?
Do you take it seriously?

Speaker 1 (45:49):
And that they didn't just you know, threaten you, They
threatened your family, your other family members, You have a baby,
I think you just had.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
A baby, right or by yes.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
Yes, I called the police multiple times. So one time
I guess she was a baby, and then the next
time she was a toddler. I mean, it's so it's
such an interesting question, it's such an important question. I
don't think I always asked me that, like what like,
at what point do you call the police? And I
think that for me, I only called the police because
my employer told me to. So, you know, one of
the benefits that I you know, I had written in

(46:22):
the book about some of the things that I had
wished that, you know, my news organization had done differently
in one particular situation, but there were also many in
many cases, there were in many ways, I felt very
supported by my news organization and felt very grateful that
I had an institution behind me, Like you know, that

(46:43):
was a real sort of that was a real difference
right between me and maybe somebody else who's who's experiencing
these kinds of attacks and is a freelance writer or
is just an influencer that doesn't have an attachment to
any kind of institution, or or a you know, or
are a researcher right who's doing this kind of work,

(47:04):
but again it's not maybe full time employed somewhere, right.
That this was a real sort of important like mitigation
for me in terms of how much harm was actually done,
because I did feel like I was not completely alone
in you know, sort of navigating these situations. So in
both of the cases, both of the times that I

(47:25):
called law enforcement, like it was not something that I
thought to do, frankly because of the way that we
talk about this issue in the culture, which is like
it's totally normal to have people send you death threats
and rape threats and terrible things online, and so you
really internalize that and you're just like, Okay, there's nothing

(47:46):
that I can do. There's nothing that can be done,
and you almost like it's almost like your threat response
system becomes desensitized because you're just like, Okay, this is
just what's happening online now. But in both cases, my editors,
I had taken sent the abuse, you know, whatever had
risen to that level, but I sent it to the
edit to my editors, and my editors were like, this

(48:08):
is something that requires a call to law enforcement. So
I called law enforcement a couple of times and they've
come to the house. But the truth is that, like
you know, this remains an issue that is still deeply misunderstood.
There is not enough training, you know, for I don't
even really blame these individual officers. I think they were

(48:28):
incredibly you know, sort of befuddled by what I was
trying to sort of say and why I was calling
them in the first place. And I mean I think
even one of them said, you know, why don't you
just write under a pseudonym? And it's like, you know,
there was just which again sort of shifts the burden right,
like to the victim to be the one to sort
of adjust their behavior right to avoid the abuse, versus

(48:50):
trying to sort of get at the root cause, which
is this person threatened my life, made threats against my life.
But they were very ill equipped, as met many you know,
as as I think much of law enforcement is to
really sort of deal with this, and this is an
issue that is also treated very differently kind of state
to state. You know, there's and and and the sort

(49:12):
of you know, the federal legislation that exists on this.
I mean, things have to rise to such a high
level right to be sort of taken seriously. And even then,
you know, I interviewed women who who had called the
FBI in one state, were taken very seriously, then moved
to another state, had an incident, called the FBI in
another state, and the FBI didn't even call the back, right.

(49:34):
So there's just enormous variability in how you know, you know,
this issue is treated and what kind of recourse people
are able to sort of you know, sort of get.
But usually this is not an issue that is sort
of taken seriously or treated very seriously by law enforcement.
And it's a huge.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Problem that's gonna yes, and I think I could see
policemen eventually NFBI and that eventually getting trained in this area,
because especially now, I mean, it's getting it at a
hand for lack of better words that I could think
of right now to say that, but I still enjoyed

(50:18):
talking to you.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Oh yeah, and I didn't even get to cover everything.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
I'm not sorry, I talk a lot too. So yeah,
but I could talk to you.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
I could talk you well day listen, you are walcome
to come back by some you know, uh next year,
write another book? You want to come back and talk
about something on You are just a pleasure to talk with.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
How can people get in touch with you? Oh? You
did a website?

Speaker 3 (50:52):
Yes? Yes, they can go to my website aliadostigear dot
com and they can message me there. They can also
find me on Blue Sky handles on there too. I'm
not on X anymore. I left like a week ago
and feel very happy about it.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
You know.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
But yeah, come to my website and check up the
book and come, you know, send me a message, tell
me what you think I want to hear from.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
You, and where tet people buy your book. I'm going
to stay the name of the title to those who
have confused you to be a person words as violence
and stories of women's resistance Online.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Where can they purchase that out yet? Oh?

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Anywhere books are sold. But you know, head to your
local bookstore would be my my best, my best advice,
you know, go go go visit an indie bookstore and
pick it up there or bookshop. Uh works too, but
anywhere books are sold, or go to a library, go
to the local library.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
And I want to spell.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
I'll give the name A L I A and their
last name is spelled.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
D A F T A G.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
I are folks. I highly recommend you buying this book.
It really needs to be read. This book is so
important now more than ever. It's so vital to the
time that we're having right now. And I just want
to thank you Alia for being brave enough to write
your book, to interview these women, for the women in

(52:22):
your book to share their stories.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Kudos to everyone.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
I salute you all and sharing to help other people.
And all the information about Alia Adosta gear will be
in the blog that Genie White, who's the station manager,
writes and produces the show. I want to thank Lillian Coldwell,
CEO of Pettworal Toalk Cradio Network makes us all possible.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
And once thank you the listeners. Thank you for listening.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Subscribing you do on the race, Subscribe to chatting with Betsy's
for free. I'm on Spotify, Speaker, Amazon Music, just to
name a few. Please tell your friends about my show.
I'm here to help people. Maybe you've been abused online.
You don't know what to do. Pick up this book.
I think this would be a great gift to give

(53:12):
to any female, even men, by especially women really need
to read this book so you could be prepared.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
In case you do encounter problems online.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
And folks, as I always say, you know at the
end of my show, in a world where you could
be anything to please be kind.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
We need it now more than ever before.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
And when you're online, please be civilized. Don't waste your
time arguing. If you don't like what someone says, just
leave it alone. Just go through something else. There's no
reason to bully people threaten people.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
I just just I just don't agree with that at all.
I really don't.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
We have to start being civilized to each other again
and to agree to disagree. You're not gonna change people's
minds by calling the names and threatening them. That's not
gonna change their mind. Everyone has a right to their
own opinion. And that's myself box for the end of
the show, and if you want.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
To follow me, I'm on Facebook Betsy E.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
Worzel w r z E L And until we chat again,
please be safe, be kind everyone.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
This is Betsy Worzel. You're a host of chatting with
Betsy on Pessa

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Role Talk Radio Network, a subsidiary of Global Media Network
llc BI by now