July 28, 2025 • 63 mins
Original Release Date: Monday 28 July 2025
Description: Because your friends in podcasting really wanted to take a much-needed week off, they pre-recorded this week's show in two parts. One part involves Dean and Phil continuing their ongoing reappraisal of the "Mission: Impossible" films, as they debate the merits of the most successful (and critically acclaimed) installment – Mission: Impossible - Fallout. The other part was recorded with good pal Jon Lawlor during their weekly discussion of "The Art Life". The themes they explore involve the definitions of "courage", "decorate" and answering the question, "what's missing?" Music, bravery, intimacy, cancer, dog sweaters, and the "Star Trek" episode "Spectre of the Gun" are just some of the topics discussed. The show ends in a cliffhanger mystery! The show BEGINS with a question to you (yes, YOU!), our dear listeners, about the future form of YOUR Chillpak Hollywood Hour!
Description: Because your friends in podcasting really wanted to take a much-needed week off, they pre-recorded this week's show in two parts. One part involves Dean and Phil continuing their ongoing reappraisal of the "Mission: Impossible" films, as they debate the merits of the most successful (and critically acclaimed) installment – Mission: Impossible - Fallout. The other part was recorded with good pal Jon Lawlor during their weekly discussion of "The Art Life". The themes they explore involve the definitions of "courage", "decorate" and answering the question, "what's missing?" Music, bravery, intimacy, cancer, dog sweaters, and the "Star Trek" episode "Spectre of the Gun" are just some of the topics discussed. The show ends in a cliffhanger mystery! The show BEGINS with a question to you (yes, YOU!), our dear listeners, about the future form of YOUR Chillpak Hollywood Hour!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
And now Your Chill Pack Hollywood Hour with Dean Hagland
and Phil Lareness. Hey, everybody, your friend in podcasting Phil
Lareness here. If what I read is true, our partner
in this endeavor, Subspace Radio, is planning to return to
live transmissions, and so the question becomes, do we go
(00:26):
back to live broadcasts of Your Chill Pack Hollywood Hour
or do we stick with simply podcasts. Let us know
if you have any thoughts about this by dropping a
line to Chillpackhollywood at yahoo dot com or via text
or private message or smoke signals or skywriting. Do you
(00:53):
like the looser, longer shows we have been doing of
late or the leaner hopefully not meaner, fifty three minute
and fifty second versions we were doing for broadcast, or
should we do a hybrid version live and then a
podcast with bonus material. While you ponder these important questions,
(01:19):
Dean and I felt like we needed to take a
week off from recording. It's Dean's birthday and he is
recovering from the hell of moving back into his house
after the hell of living in his art studio for many, many,
many months, And I too have my own mess with
(01:39):
which I've been dealing. So here we are with an
episode cobbled together from two pre recorded conversations. The first
is part of our ongoing discussion reappraising the big screen
Mission Impossible franchise, and the second part is from a
weekly discussion about the art life that we have with
(02:02):
our pal John Lawler. That's about it, except oh yeah.
You will also hear a couple of selections from Paul
Weller's just released new covers album find El Dorado, and
the great Leonard Nimoy will make a couple of cameo appearances.
(02:22):
Buckle up, smoke him if you got him, and we
will begin. You can talk.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
About Joeybe. You can rib it the color, you can
hurt it.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Alla, let legal, Let legal.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Well, we all know.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
That's old fashion and it can only lead to pain
where we might end up.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
On the corner.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Taking hand up in the rain. We've been talking about
the Mission Impossible films last two weeks. We discussed Mission
Impossible four, Ghost Protocol and Mission Impossible five Roade Nation
in our ongoing reappraisal of the film franchise. We agreed
(03:55):
that four was perhaps the most fun, certainly the most
fun up to that point and five was likely the
best in the entire franchise. Agree, So then we watch
six Mission Impossible Fallout. And I'm not saying that this
proves my case, because I will say it was never
(04:16):
in It never approached my top two until the most
recent rewatch. But you say you want to know why
this worked for me, and I think the onus is
on you because of the fact that far and away
this is the biggest box office success of all of
them by hundreds of millions of dollars globally, and far
(04:38):
and away critically the biggest success of all of them.
I mean, this has an almost unprecedented for the genre
score on Metacritic, and these are the top critics. I mean,
it's like a ninety. It's unheard of, as opposed to
like a ghost protocol, which we love, being like a
seventy three or a seventy four. So there is a
(05:01):
huge gulf in both the box office success and the
critical success.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Right, So that's indication though we know no, it isn't.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
It is an indication. We just don't know what it's
an indication of. And and critical consensus is a context
separate from box office context, certainly, but so I'm putting
the onus on you. Why is this not up there
(05:33):
for you? Because I know that it's not down there
with Mission Impossible two. I know it's not down there
with Mission Impossible one. But why is it not up
there in near the peaks at least even if it's
not out the peaks? And why was it for so
many people? I'm putting both those onuses upon you, and
(05:55):
then all come in with what I appreciate about it.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Okay, So I'm just going to use a macrocosm that
is prevalent through the whole movie. And here's the thing.
The action sequence. The bad guy tied up in the
back of a Brinks truck. He is being you know,
escorted by motorcycles and other weapon weaponized vehicles and Tom
(06:20):
cruise of the team.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Through through the streets of Paris. This is the streets,
the big kind of I don't know if it's the
midpoint or it might actually end of Act one. I
forget now exactly, but but big middle part of the film. Yeah,
the big vehicular action sequence that is common just to
so many of these movies. In the next one, they
(06:41):
would do roam and that's one that I thought was spectacular.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Totally with the door and lots of detail, like lots
of thought to the choreography of all the crashing and
all that sort of thing. So here he is Tom
Cruise sitting beside Carvel there and.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Now James Marble, let's put an end to that rumor
political commentary, say right there, that's the worst James Carvel,
the rage in Cajun. No, it's Henry Cavill.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Henry Cavills, who I've met. Yeah, So Henry Cavill's beside
him in the back of the truck. A team of
masked gunmen ready to go with their plan. So their
plan is.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And we don't mean mission impossible masks, we mean like
like ski.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Masks and sea masks, actually plastic, they're like leather her face,
a goalie mass kind of thing. Uh So, get this,
a truck, a truck turns on the side and flips
on their main road. They have to take the secondary route.
Nobody from that police escort goes to check on that driver,
like you would think, oh is this a roofs? Like,
(07:47):
clearly already your hackles should be up that a truck
just mysteriously out of nowhere blocks your main route and
so you would think at this point everybody would sort
of not drive faster, but in fact send all weapons
up and ready to go. No. No, they're just driving
peacefully under the bridge. And out comes Tom Cruise and
(08:09):
he pushes the truck into the water, and the other
guy goes, oh, what that guy thinking? Then he backs up,
backs up really fast as all the machine guns start
going off into their window and it goes through the
garage wall on the other side. How did he know
that that would break away? How did he know? I mean,
it's a giant old cement bridge, it's a huge tinder
(08:33):
of cinder blocks and stuff like that. Now goes knocks
it out. Then magically the door opens up and all
the assassins fall out in the sidewalk, and then he
just drives off by hisself, and then you know, changes cars,
and from there every detail was ridiculous, and he finally runs.
(08:55):
He's on a motorcycle chase. He's being chased by the
police through Paris. He hits a car that he didn't see,
goes flying over into the sidewalk, shakes it off, runs
with his knife and over the hedges with the cops
in pursuit, and falls into a boat in the sewer
with the Simon and Luther or Simon Pegluth Banjry happy
(09:17):
to be driving with the hostage. You know. Again, sometimes
you like the oh, that's crazy how they coordinated that.
But that was beyond anything right there, and from that
sequence on I was out. I'm out of that movie.
And I thought the two handers were dull. I thought
they were unenergetic. And you know, then the final plot
(09:41):
of two plutonium devices have to be cut at the
same time while deactivating the trigger switch from the Milwaukee
Takie that was in the other helicopter that's hanging off
the edge of a cliff. You know, you want to
set in a production meeting, I want to hear that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Well, I'm gonna so personally, and then we'll come to
the why of the huge acceptance of it and embrace
of it. But I yeah, as you were describing the sequence,
I was thinking about the importance of actors in the
right characters, because a lot of this film is carried
(10:21):
on the fact that Sean Harris was so good as
the villain in the previous one. His threat is real,
even though he isn't given anything really to do in
this film, but the threat of him is real, sure,
and so it again there's actor, character, it and it,
(10:42):
and it kind of hints at me how much of
that this film is going to rely on. Yeah, Henry
Henry Cavill is a very effective thorn in Ethan's side
turned reluctant collaborator turned actual villain, each of those steps.
(11:07):
I don't think he's a great actor, Henry Cavill. I
like him in things, but I always find him a
bit limited and wish that either he would accept his
limitations and not be pushing against them so obviously, or
that I wish there was greater breath to them. So
(11:30):
I'm damning him with faint praise, of course, But I
think he's perfect for this, not in spite of those facts,
because of those facts, because of the nature of who
he's playing in this and who that person actually is.
All those kind of limitations sort of our revelatory of character.
(11:54):
So great casting of a persona in a role that
itself turns out to be a persona, right, And I
think it's Henry Cavill's best big screen achievement to date.
By the way, is his word in this film. I mean,
what would I compare it to I mean the Superman movies.
(12:15):
They didn't work, I mean Man from Uncle. So the
sequence that you're talking about, the big action sequence, it
was fascinating how little I remembered that given how much
time there is in it. Like the Rome one, I
(12:39):
can't escape like I think about that and we're jumping ahead.
I think about that one. It lives in my memory
and in my imagination, and it gets more and more
exciting the more often I see it. For the reasons
that we talked about last week that some of these
sequences do because we're so captured in our imagination that
we then start to ask, how the hell did they
actually do this?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, how did they shoot that?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
But this one did not live in my memory at all,
and so I was kind of surprised. But the key
to it for me, and the key for why the
movie doesn't lose me, is darn if they don't put
Rebecca Ferguson in in the right time, exactly when she's
needed and what she's given to do in that long
(13:24):
action sequence plants the questions of what is going on,
what's she doing? Why is she doing this? That propelled
me forward in the movie and did I remembered even
back when I saw it on the big screen. So
it comes back to the human element and what a
(13:44):
big part they're carrying in this movie amidst all the
huge action.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
In my mind that, as you said, I think was
eight version rewrite that they said, look, we're gonna lose,
We're losing it here, we need something. Let's bring Rebecca
in and have her and then justify the motivation. Why
she shooting? Why is you now working beside him? Why
she not? This seemed to me a save for the script,
(14:15):
not a feature that was there.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And I think it, I think it works. I think
I think it literally is a save, and in fact,
now I want to go ahead to the climax of
the film. You described the circumstances. Two different plutonium devices
have to be Uh what did you.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Say, just cut, dismantled, deactivated, exact same time that a.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Pin is being pulled from a remote detonator the remote detonator. Yeah,
three different centers of action. I'm going to say about
that whole sequence, the same thing I would say about
(15:02):
the emotional denu MOI that comes after it, where Michelle Monahan,
who Ethan's wife, who has been reintroduced and shows up
at the end. All of the action, all the setup
and her presence in it is all so heavy handed
(15:26):
and maybe unnecessary that it shouldn't work, but goddamn it
if a lot of it doesn't work, and a lot
of it works because of Michelle Monahan, because of who
she is as a performer. Her working on one of
the devices with Luther is really good. Like it's a
(15:50):
really good scene by between two actors. And never are
you more grateful to like the two performers who are
doing this scene so much, right.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Right, gatic And it's got a ticking clock, I mean
these things, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
But it's but it's still again so heavy handed. All
the films have ticking clocks, all of them, and this
one works really because of the work those two actors
are doing. And then the emotional denouemi at the end,
where Ethan is so apologetic and so regretful of how
(16:28):
everything's turned out and what she's had to go through,
you know, being on the run from him largely and everything,
and the speech she gives in her hands is actually
a real tear jerker. It's the only tier jerker in
the entire franchise. It is so such a brilliant bit
(16:50):
of work for a brilliant actress who rarely has ever
been given her due. I think White Lotus finally got
a lot of people to catch on to how brilliant
she always always been in a wide range of things. Anyway,
just a couple more examples of how much it relies
on the actors in that denou Moir. Also in the
big action piece it is telling. I think that the
(17:15):
showdown between Henry Cavill's character and Ethan and the action
involved is nowhere near as exciting for me as what's
going on in that house with Sean Harris's Solomon Lane
Oh yeah, Benji and Rebecca Ferguson's il Safaust Yeah. Their
(17:39):
showdown is bone crunching and scary and has both immediacy
and personal stakes in addition to the global stakes.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Absolutely, I can't not agree with that. However, they stand
as little oasis amongst the desert of terribleness. I think, so, uh,
you know, you only know you're in the desert when
you see the oasis, right.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
I just think that this is a film I was
thinking about, like the Bond films, which we do compare
it to, For a lot of us for the longest
time to the two best or two of the best
were From Russia with Love and Goldfinger, right, and my goodness,
(18:33):
were they wildly different movies.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
From Russia with Love could have actually happened for crying
out loud, yeah, there wasn't that much. And then Goldfinger
sets the template for what actually the franchise would be. Right, lazy,
but it perfects it. They're both perfect of their type.
And I feel like there is a connection there between
(18:59):
those films and Rogue Nation and Fallout, the one we're
talking about, because my god, they're wildly different, using the
same characters and continuing the same story, but they're almost
two different approaches to the entire franchise and film altogether.
But the highs in this movie are so high. Some
(19:23):
of the ones that I mentioned we haven't talked about.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
The jump, the jump.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
That Cavel and Cruse take in the Lightning Storm, the fight,
the fight sequence that then ensues in the bathroom. Yeah,
after that, like that whole Paris sequence leading up to
the action sequence. Oh man, is that good? Also? I
(19:50):
think in the whole series, my favorite part of the
team working as a team is when Alec Baldwin's secretary
character comes to show up to read them the Riot
Act and to rain them in, and he's actually running
a play. He's actually become part of the team as
(20:12):
a field operative. That whole sequence is so rewarding and
so so I just feel like the the peaks of
Fallout are so good that it carried a lot of weight.
I guess, you know the way the way that with Goldfinger,
(20:33):
And I don't think Goldfinger has the weaknesses that we're describing,
but I am saying that the peaks of Goldfinger, the
summits it attains, are so exciting that that's what cements
its status. Even though when it comes to Bond films,
I prefer a from Russia with love. I prefer for
(20:54):
your eyes only. I prefer the ones, those rare ones
that could actually happen, right right.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, well again, And then so Henry pulls the oxygen
out of his mask just before the jump. I failed
to see the motivation to do that. What just trying
to kill him? And then he gets struck by lightning,
and then Tod has to save him as they're coming
down to three thousand feet Like all of that action
wise spectacular, I couldn't. The photographer had to skydive with
(21:24):
Tom going out that back of the one that you know.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, I think you're being unfair about the thing the
pulling the oxygen. Remember, Cruz has Ethan Hunt has said
we're not going, we can't do the jump out right,
And Henry Cavill's character is going to do the jump
no matter what. He does not need Ethan to fulfill
the mission. Oh that's the point. And in fact, if
(21:48):
you're not going to go, then you're really not going
to go. And he thinks he prevents him from coming,
and it it's an interesting moment, right, It feels again
Ethan is never gonna let anyone unnecessarily die. So even
though this guy tried to prevent him from coming, he's
(22:09):
not doing it to try to kill Ethan. Ethan's already
decided not to go, so he's just sabotaging him so
he can't come. And then Ethan decides to come anyway.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Right because he knows he's gonna get killed if he
doesn't help him.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
If he doesn't help him, yeah, uh, And and also
maybe he doesn't want the other guy succeeding in the
mission without him or or thinks the guy will screw
up the mission or you know whatever it is, right, So, so, Dean,
why I love how long over time we've gone on this?
(22:43):
Why meet up with the Dog? Why? Why the universal
love for this movie? And I'm gonna tie it back
to Bond. I am going to bring that back. Yeah,
but why why? Yeah? Why the universal love for this?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Uh? The year was nineteen or two eighteen? Is that
when this came out? I think so. But anyway, that
was a time of you know, we had the space
space for this kind of movie in our heads, so
I think everybody went, oh, man, this is exciting. And
(23:21):
then Tom Cruise of course going on talk shows and
skydiving with James Gordon, and you know that's him skydiving.
He loves high yeltitude skydiving. So the marketing was right
on this. It landed at the right time for summer release.
To my mind, that was the movie. Everybody was looking
(23:41):
for a Mission Impossible movie at that summer. So it
wasn't that oh my god, word of mouth was this
movie so good? It's oh my god, let's go see
a Mission impossible, crazy action thing, because that's where our
heads at this summer.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Collect if you throw out again Goldfinger and those halcyon
days of Bond and you just look at the rest
of the franchise for you know, from that point on, right,
Skyfall is such an outlier in terms of the box
office and in terms of the critical appraisal. Critics loved it,
audiences loved it as if it was the best Bond
(24:20):
film ever. And you know who doesn't think that it's
one of the best Bond films?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Well, this guy, you yes.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
But also I would say Bond fans, Oh, yeah, is
it possible that this is the Mission Impossible for people
who aren't Mission Impossible fans? Oh, the one that's most accessible,
the most accessible, the biggest, the loudest, the baddest ass
and you can get it. And you can then think
(24:51):
that all of Mission Impossible is this based on this movie?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And it's so big you don't have to work to
get into it. It's done the work for you. I
think that there's part of that. I think what you're saying,
everybody was ready for it. They were getting bigger and
bigger these movies. They were getting bigger and better. From
three four five, they were getting bigger and better. And
let's face it. A lot of times reviews are based
(25:19):
upon momentum in a franchise, so they came to it
and they go, yeah, look at this, they've achieved even more.
And in retrospect, would those reviews have been as strong
if given more time to view and rewatch in context?
Maybe not, But I do think there's a little bit
(25:41):
of a Skyfall kind of embrace going on here, and
the box office shows it for these other two films,
where'd the audience go? A lot of people who love
Fallout didn't come back after the pandemic to these other
movies and weren't there by the way prior to it.
So it got a significant amount of people who'd never
(26:02):
seen it before, and I think it got a certain
amount of critics who never got Mission Impossible the same
way before. And I want to point out just one
other thing in terms of the patterning, because I do
find Mission Impossible as a franchise fascinating, and what I
suggested to you was right. You can view them as
two film increments. One and two they're trying to figure
(26:25):
out what the heck is a Mission Possible movie. Three
and four they're finding it right, and then five and six,
this one being six. They're perfecting it, and the box
office is a fascinating indicator in this one, which was
better than two, nevertheless did not do the box office
(26:48):
the two did. Two was a step down in terms
of quality, but a step up in terms of box office.
It was a huge hit.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Three was a huge drop off in box office while
being a step up in quality. Four a lot more
box office than three, almost double the box office will
still really being linked to it. Right here we are
to five. Five was a drop off, six a huge
(27:20):
step up. The second halves of these movies, of these
pairs all do much better box office than the film prior,
and that's continued with seven and eight. The just released
eight has passed seven both domestically and at the global
box office.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
So you have fatigue, you have franchise fatigue, and then
you have a red franchise reappraisal that we go, oh my.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Gosh, and maybe that that continues over time. Two.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
That'll be fascinating to watch, huh.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
It would be interesting, especially if they decided to continue it.
A night of me hopes they do without Tom Cruise,
not because I don't want to see Tom Cruse do
it anymore, but because I think this franchise and what
they do at their best, like, why not continue this?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Right?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Just don't continue it on a budget of four hundred
million dollars because that's not viable though again also largely
not their fault because a pandemic and strikes though in
the world we live in now and how long these
movies take to make, maybe you better anticipate that there's
going to be upheaval, right that affects your economics, and
(28:34):
you better bake it into the cake beforehand.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Fascinating. I think that's a wise idea because you know
your marketing end of it, it's already take care of.
It's a mission impossible movie. You know the team, the
IMF team, they're they're gone, like you know, we disavowed
knowing you over and over again, just like the TV series.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So I gave a ghost protocol. At that time, the
franchise bet three and a half stars. I gave Rogue
Nation a perfect four stars. I was tempted. I thought,
going into this, well, this will be another four star
movie because of its masterpiece status. But I'm hard pressed
(29:18):
to knock it down much more than a half star
really at this point in time, because yeah, I mean,
I mean I'm thinking about it in terms of context,
so right now I'm giving it a provisional three and
a half stars.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Wow, you're far more generous than I am.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Because what's good is so very very good. Oh my god,
when he's chasing after Henry Cavill in London and he
and Benji doesn't realize that he's elevated, when Benji's directing
him and he goes, why aren't you turning there? Why
aren't you turning there? Because he doesn't know that Tom
(29:57):
Cruise is a top building right the end go up
to escape and oh my god, in that office when
he finds himself in the bank of offices and he's
got to break the window and jump to a neighboring building.
The reaction of extras, what great extra work, second unit direction,
and and oh my god, I can't unsee Tom Cruise
(30:20):
breaking his ankle on that jump, because he really does.
When he hits the wall, shattered his ankle.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
And that's the worst of it. Fine started at Joe,
which started.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Cry but I.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Didn't see that good Joe.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
So jents. You'll remember a while back we played with
something called oblique strategies and they're they're a deck of cards.
There are a deck of cards that were authored by
Brian Eno, Yes and uh and Peter Schmidt and and
(31:21):
designed for creative people to you know, break through any
blocks or just to you know, spark new ideas and
or new ways of of doing things. And so last
night I pulled the deck out and fanned them out,
(31:44):
and of course they're all identical. On the back, they're
all just black cards, and then the other side is
white with with a line typed on them and H
and I fanned them all out, and I asked Lily
two in this order, pick one for Dean, pick one
(32:04):
for John, and then pick one for me. Okay, So
I will reveal the cards that she intuitively picked, the
oblique strategies the card for Dean Hagland A question, A
question for you answering questions? Well, I think where you're concerned,
(32:27):
John and I could both offer you many answers to
this question.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
I love answering other people's questions. It's why I'm a
white guy.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Wo WHOA?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Okay? Was the question?
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Is there something missing?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Uh tea in my studio?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So should we?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Should we answer? For him? John?
Speaker 4 (32:53):
I like that you gave it no thought whatsoever. You
immediately went to, wait.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
That's a good John, John's more gentle, and yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Thought thought, oh yeah, thought oh yeah, it was beautiful though,
thank you. And you started looking around though.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, well I was double checking is something missing?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Because that's immediate. But well and also, dear lord.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
You just moved everything out of your house and you
suddenly had to move everything back in, and the question
is there something missing?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
It does not occur to you that, oh, maybe there
is something.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Maybe there is something busy in fact, how you think's missing?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Well, that thing?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Every day we say, hey, where's that thing? I don't
know it's missing, or it could be the studio, or
maybe it's in the house or in the basement or
in the garage, could be any one of those things.
So the answer is yes, I'm not sure if I.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Got it right right, And I'm going to just suggest
and we'll come back to you in a minute. But
of all people to answer a question yes and not yes,
and is really horrible that it's you right now.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Answers yes, and I'm not missing it. Something's missing, and
I don't miss it a bit.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
How's that again? Maybe a thoughtfulness, a yes, a sanity,
a serenity, all right, but these are these are all right?
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (34:29):
John? John? I thought this. I go, oh, well, she's
she's far afield. And then you revealed what has been
planned thus far for you and your wife's fortieth birthday party,
and I immediately flashed on the card little picked for you.
It's one word repeated with a comma in between. Decorate decorate. Hm,
(34:58):
what comes to mind the if I had not, if
I'd not tip my hand that I immediately thought about
your birthday party? Uh? What would would? Would? Would those
words make you think of anything else, anything that you've
got going on, anything creatively, any challenges in front of you? Decorate, decorate?
Speaker 4 (35:20):
I mean I do always feel like I'm trying to
like make a neatness before I can be creative. But
that's not really decorating. All Yeah, all I can think
of is is holiday decorations. And I know that's kind
of obvious, but at the same time, it's the reason
(35:43):
for the season. It's like why I I like I
like the I like the holidays about to come up
a very big I sent.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
You some of my artwork. I still say it up, Well, do.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
You also see the mess I've made.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
That's the This is.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
Where I'm like kind of feeling where I'm like, wow,
I came up here and I forgot that Kelly wanted
to switch rooms. So now we're in different rooms. But
stuff had to come out and move around, and now
up here's a mess again. But the goal was to
clean it, and I started moving things bit by bit,
and then this happened on the weekend, and so now
(36:22):
I'm not back to square one, but I am a
little bit more messy than I was, and that the
point is so that we can finish up this side
of the room. Because originally I wanted it. I don't
know if I wanted it. I thought it was going
to just be simple, and then I saw the side
that she created and I was like, well, I want
(36:45):
that over here now too, So so yeah, so now
we switched the You know, now I'm facing in the
other direction, and there's going to be stuff that goes up,
including the artwork, and I just haven't done it yet.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I know the one only man, I gotta te not
on hooks.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And though Dean, it's interesting because a big part of
the process of remodeling the house, not necessarily the inspiration
behind the the thing. But a big part of how
you went about it was with ideas of decoration in mind, right,
(37:29):
I mean the process of the backsplash for crying out loud.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Right out loud, right, a decor backsplash that you printed
in Florida that you have to get back here before
the tiling guy left. Yeah, that was a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
And so this idea of decorating being somehow I think
people can fall into the trap creative, people can fall
into the trap, right, like it comes last, right, But
sometimes it's actually the piece that if you know how
you want to decorate, it's informing how you go about
(38:04):
the work to get the actual task done. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
It also makes me think of the word like a
decorated soldier.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Well, that was the other thing that yeah, kind of
blew my mind. Is conferring an award or a medal
on someone or a steam in some way.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
So.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Decorate, decorate, So if that came to mind, why would
that come to mind other than it being a definition.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Well that I think I think that's rather dismissive of
the guy's work, that he got the metal and maybe
I feel the better and we just call it. Oh,
I decorate it, like, I'm decorated. What the hell? This
metal symbolizes courage and facing diversity. It's not a simple
(38:56):
two tone shade of the baseboard. It's like that that's
decorate to decorate us somebody for a virtue seems they
should have another word, but not for you.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Maybe, so that's something that's missing, is a new word something.
Something that's missing is being able to hold the tension
of the opposites between art and decoration. Perhaps, but John
led this by going to Christmas and that the decorations
(39:33):
of the reason for the season. So that's not superfluous,
that's not in that sense. You know, being decorated isn't
without meaning in the case of the holidays, it's the
actual reason. It is the meaning.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Yeah, I like, and I also think, I guess what
also makes me think about getting things ready is the
feeling of being in a room that is holiday themed
during a holiday, it feels like you're actually living a memory,
(40:13):
like you're actually there now all of a sudden, you're
you feel ready to be there. And I think the
same goes for like when I'm working in a creative space.
As inspiring as I find it to look at a
space of someone who is notoriously you know, a famous artist,
and it's just a it's just an absolute disaster of
(40:36):
a house or whatever, and it's just very messy, and
it's like, oh, that's so, that's so creative, and now
they're living in it. And yet I also feel like
that also gives me like hives, and I feel like
I would only be able to do that if everything
I needed was right in front of me at all times,
(40:57):
because the moment I have to go looking for something,
the moment I'm lost, and so uh oh.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, cut your focus.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
Yeah, I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want that to
be that. I would want there to be a disaster
area behind me, but for everything I was doing, it
would need to be in front of me.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Right, So that food that is beautiful to look at
may not taste good, but but food that tastes good
and is beautiful to look at is preferable to food
that tastes great and isn't beautiful to look at.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Yeah, it looks like weird.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
And it's the same with like proposals receiving creative proposals. Yeah,
the the polished and beautiful proposal may end up being hollow. Yeah,
but the proposal that's beautiful to look at, that has
good ideas is preferable to the one that's brilliant that
(41:58):
isn't beautiful to look at, and and and all I
can say is getting back to John's analogy of the play,
the room is ready, the house is ready. It's it's
ready to support life through celebrating, right, because it's a holiday.
(42:21):
And for me so much, my mantra these days is
reminding myself that we celebrate things to express why they matter.
So the more you lead with this visual and and
and visceral impression that hey, this place is ready, you've
(42:48):
already expressed to a degree why things matter, why it matters, right,
And so that's why you know the proposal that looks
beautiful in is polished. You've already told me that this
matters to you. Ah, I don't have to do that
work of going in and going hey, god, damn, this matters. Yeah,
(43:17):
and yeah. Sometimes you've set me up to believe it
mattered to you. And then I look at it and
I go, well, you didn't care. You're good at decorating.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Well, that's true all art too, right, what seems to
be selling a lot these days is the superficial versus
thing that has a deeper connection to artist intent.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
So John, and that that may be this idea of celebrate, right,
is where the two definitions come together, just the two
definitions of decorate of making something look more attractive, let's say,
right by the the lights and the you know, the
the decorative arts, right yeah, and then the other element
(44:09):
of you know, conferring some sort of award or status
on to some one or something because of outstanding qualities
that they have expressed or exhibited. Both of those definitions,
seemingly different are joined because of celebration.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yes, absolutely, because you want to celebrate them.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
So if we take it out of the idea of
the physical the space that you're working in, for example,
birthday parties, if there is anything that you can think of,
what is like a character quality, you know, a part
of human nature that maybe you wish was you know,
(45:06):
confirmed greater status upon someone or something or something, is
you know in this day and age.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
Mm, yeah, that's a good question. I'm sure there's many
of them, actually, I can. I mean, that's.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
That's but you know, that's the that's to me, the
antidote for shaking our fists at the at the behavior
that gets lauded in a in a indecent society, that
(45:47):
is no. Okay, well, we're going to decorate what matters.
We're going to reinforce, at least with each other, that
these are the.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Things that matter, the virtues of courage and.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Or for just virtues or just virtues.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yes, yeah, manners exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Okay, well you just said the virtue of courage. So
my card one word with an exclamation work. Can you
look at that? Courage?
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Ay?
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Courage? So I had just minutes before revealed to her,
maybe a half hour before, revealed to her how much
these little notes from her sister that I get mean
to me through this whole process we will call cancer.
(46:42):
I find that when her sister reaches out to me
to find out how I'm doing and lets me know
that this is she's reaching out specifically to me for me,
for my well being, that it moves me. And it
came up because I had received one of these messages
from her and didn't thank her for to writer back
(47:03):
for a month. And I realized that sometimes because I'm
rarely at a loss for words, but sometimes I am
so moved by something that it makes me go quiet.
And so that led to a little bit of a
larger discussion, and I revealed to Lil that I find
(47:29):
that every day there is at the point comes at
every single day where I am sure I am about
to utterly break down every day once but not. But
there's no congruence between time or place or something. It's
(47:49):
just up here. It comes here, comes high tide. So
I'm I was at the point of saying, I maybe
that's just my new normal, and that's okay, you know,
And so once a day and so then I get
this card Courage exclamation mark. So I knew she'd picked
(48:12):
the right card for me, but I was interested in
the idea, and so I throw this into the room.
I've already looked at this and thought about this, but
Dean saying, we need another word. So here's two words
that get used interchangeably, courage and bravery. Right, but they
(48:34):
are different words, so they must mean something different. And
I'm wondering if this is not a quiz about what
the definition is. But I am curious about when you
hear those two words, what is the difference to you,
if anything?
Speaker 2 (48:51):
But to me, I think, well, one of them is
being afraid and acting anyway. So it's not the a
ration of fear. It's that you acknowledge you're fearful and
still go forward with your task or whatever. It's often
in theater where you are, oh my god, I'm gonna
(49:13):
be so vulnerable and exposed and I can't do the
scene or whatever, but then you acknowledge that you are
afraid of that and then carry on with the scene.
As is so to my mind that I would call bravery,
I think, and then courage. What you think it's the.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
No no, no, no no no go ahead, no no, no,
go ahead, go ahead, So then courage.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Right now, because then courage is the idea that I
am courageous, like the cowardly lion suddenly gets courage. Right.
So this is a way of being, whereas bravery is
living in acknowledging fear and doing anyway as an action. Courage,
on the other hand, is the act of going through
(50:01):
the world refusing to let fear be the thing. Right,
I'm not gonna live looking behind me. I'm not gonna
you know, always have worried about, well, what that guy
thinking over there or whatever. So the courage to go
forward is different than bravery.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
In action, John, is there anything you want to add
or or refute or.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Now?
Speaker 4 (50:30):
I mean I was thinking, like very literally, I was like,
I guess courage is like the feeling. Bravery is the action. Yeah, Like,
maybe courage is what you need to be brave.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Oh that's interesting. Bravery is.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
The uh an act of bravery?
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Yeah, I like. I like the idea of you know,
relationship between things like finding with this idea of decorate
and decorate. Oh, there is an At first, those two
definitions seem so different because they're different contexts. Oh, but
there's an act that makes them the same, which is
what are we celebrating and how do we want to
(51:14):
celebrate it? And that's what goes into how we decorate
for the season or the holiday, and that's how we
go into what metal we're giving people. But what John's
hinting at is I think, yeah, a relationship between those
two ideas because it's it's yeah, one allows you to
(51:36):
act in this way. I think about it this way.
Bravery is the ability to act in the face of fear.
Courage involves acting despite fear with intentionality and deliberation.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Oh, Bravery is thrust upon you. Right, something has come
up in the moment and your U I think of
it as a performer, Right, something comes up that is frightening,
(52:21):
be it an improv or an emotion within you, and
even a scripted piece that you've done many times before.
This is terrifying and the bravery in the face of
it to not shy away from it, to go through
it right or to explore it. But courage is the
thing that got you on the stage in the first place. True,
(52:44):
and so it is there is that difference, But it
is also I think, to a really brilliant degree, what
John's describing, because if I don't show the courage to show.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Up, I'll never know if I'm.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
I'm yeah, I'm never having the opportunity. Yeah. And there
are different measures of fear, right, Why why would I
be afraid to go on stage? Like right now? Also courage?
Like I I listened and it made my insides just
clam up. On the New Voice of Los Felis podcast,
I was interviewing, as I told you, about the people
(53:22):
who for forty years have been operating the Wizard of
Art Studios here in Los Felis, and I found myself
saying to the minute, I'm coming in and taking art classes.
And immediately, upon listening to that interview back and editing it,
I wanted to cut that part out because it's you.
(53:43):
It's terrifying. So the courage will get me in the door.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Right, tacking up the brush and painting well.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
In the moment, the voice is of fear of I'm
sucking at this. I'm the bravery it takes to just
keep going. The kind of courage is a choice. I
think bravery I've been thinking about a lot because people
will say, you know, Lil her Aunt and her, we're
(54:14):
talking about this, You're so brave in the face of this,
And there is an element when you are being your
most brave where you just realize, I don't have a choice,
you know, It's just it's I'm either gonna be me
or not be me right, And yeah, that's a choice
(54:35):
per se. But showing up at the art studio is
an actual choice because I can build so much in
my life that makes that just not a smart thing
to do. I'm busy. Who has the money to spend
on art classes? All these things? It does become choices.
(55:01):
You have to make choices so that you have the
time and you have the money to go do this
thing that you're terrified of doing.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Right. But I think terror is also a frame of
mind per se because I often tell my improv students.
If I thought to myself, I'm going on stage without
a script for an hour by myself in a packed
comedy club and I'm going to do that night after
night and cities all over the world, I would not
do it because it sounds terrifying and it sounds completely undoable.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
And yet you've been saying that so long now that
it's not true.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (55:40):
And this is and there's what I mean that. I
think courage is what allows us, to a degree to
be brave. Getting back to what John said, Yeah, you know,
the courage of showing up and doing it. So the
truth is, if you were confronted by that idea now,
(56:03):
you would be able to do it because you call
back on the fact that you have acted courageously and
shown up. So sometimes that's what allows us to be
brave in the moment, is to be able to realize, hey,
I've made courageous decisions before, right, I can be brave now.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
This can happen.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
It sort of reminds me of that episode of the
original Star Trek where they're in that Western set, but
they're still dying from blanks and stuff because in their
mind it's the real West and spot casts to give
them the mind meld, to make them realize that it's
all it's all an artifice, right, so that they can
then have the braver We're going to walk down the
(56:49):
street in the Western set, and it's always to me like,
oh yeah, if I just had some vulcan that could
retrain my frame of reference, I could do so much
without fear and seemingly be brave.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
We have a loyal listener, Greg Vincent, brilliant musician who
is going to be beside himself that you've brought up
Specter of the Gun from the Star Trek.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
Yeah. Specter of the Gun such a great episode. It's like,
oh my gosh, it requires just a minimal Western set.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
I think the words that you were looking for, Dean
are the bullets are unreal.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
The bullets are unreal without body, They are illusions, only
shadows without substance. They will not pass through your body,
(57:51):
for they do not exist.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
There was a time when I did have every episode
memorized and this is Inside Baseball again just for for
our listener, Greg Vincent. But if I had enough beer
in me, it would come out automatically very bad. Yeah,
(58:17):
but you're right. I mean, it is such a brilliant,
brilliant idea. I was thinking about like this again, this relationship.
Why why do we have fears? Why are some people
afraid of public speaking? Why are some people afraid of
I used to be afraid of swimming in the ocean,
(58:39):
and the reason for it was because the way I
felt was the exact same way I feel when I'm
on a tall building. It was actually a fear of heights.
Like why why do we have these things? What possible
benefit is it to us? And I'm sure that there's many, right,
but I would say that one of them is because
(59:01):
things that threaten us will come up naturally in life,
threaten our physical well being as well as our emotional
wellbeing and our mental wellbeing, and people around us threats
will occur. That's just part of nature. Having ingrained fears
(59:28):
that we can learn to face, prepare us for those
moments when fear confronts us unexpectedly. Because we have histories
of courageous action, or histories of failing to act in
(59:49):
courageous fashion, to learn from and to draw on, so
that we can hopefully know in the moment, I know
what to do here, I've got this, I'll be all
all right, just that innate knowing of I've I've embraced
death before, because that's how it feels when you're really
(01:00:09):
terrified of public speaking, for example, it's death. Yeah, you know,
like Seinfeld's line, right, the two biggest fears consistently that
people have. Their biggest fear is fear of public speaking.
Their second biggest fear is the fear of death. And
as he always pointed out, that literally means that at
(01:00:30):
a funeral you would rather be the one in the
box than the one delivering the eulogy. It is death
because of and then we go down like real psychological
rabbit holes, but because it's immolation of ego and control
and all the things that we equate with life. But
if we can do those things, and we can practice
(01:00:54):
in that way, then when the real stuff hits the fan,
like my wife having cancer, then I'm not falling apart.
I feel every day like I'm gonna fall apart. But
I'm not doing it, and this too shall pass.
Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
And that's the definition of a courage right there.
Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
That's bravery in the face of the feeling. That's bravery
in the face of the feeling because there is nothing
for me to do, there is nothing for me to
act upon as as courage. But I think the maintaining
(01:01:40):
courage is what allows me. Is getting back to John,
I guess this has been a twenty minute way of
saying I agree with what John said. It's courage that
allows much time. It's courage that allows me to act
with bravery, and it's also me taking twenty minutes that
(01:02:02):
allows us both to fill the rest of the podcast,
which is what we needed to do, and give you
time to finally answer the goddamn question, what is missing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Two dog sweaters? Now that you mention it, I don't
know where they are. They've been missing for.
Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
Four years now, wow, four years.
Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
I know these lovely acrylic turtlenecks.
Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
And you care about them because they've been gone and
you still remember, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
And they must be here somewhere in the house or
the studio. We have gone over this place twice. Now
we're about to do a third complete dig up. Of everything,
and we still haven't found these dog sweaters. So there
you go, because we packed them in Australia and that
came directly here. And everything that was in Australia came
(01:02:48):
to this place here, didn't go to la and so
it's got to be here somewhere. We just haven't seen
it in four years, five years now, near mind, I've
been here five years in Detroit.
Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
Oh wow, Well we're gonna leave on a cliffhanger. I
think for chillpack Hollywood Hour anyway, because my god, the
dream of that is great.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
And real.
Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
Appearances only their shadows, illusions, nothing but ghosts a reality.
They are lies, falsehoods, specters without body. They are to
(01:03:39):
be ignored.
Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Belated spoiler alert
And now Your Chill Pack Hollywood Hour with Dean Hagland
and Phil Lareness. Hey, everybody, your friend in podcasting Phil
Lareness here. If what I read is true, our partner
in this endeavor, Subspace Radio, is planning to return to
live transmissions, and so the question becomes, do we go
(00:26):
back to live broadcasts of Your Chill Pack Hollywood Hour
or do we stick with simply podcasts. Let us know
if you have any thoughts about this by dropping a
line to Chillpackhollywood at yahoo dot com or via text
or private message or smoke signals or skywriting. Do you
(00:53):
like the looser, longer shows we have been doing of
late or the leaner hopefully not meaner, fifty three minute
and fifty second versions we were doing for broadcast, or
should we do a hybrid version live and then a
podcast with bonus material. While you ponder these important questions,
(01:19):
Dean and I felt like we needed to take a
week off from recording. It's Dean's birthday and he is
recovering from the hell of moving back into his house
after the hell of living in his art studio for many, many,
many months, And I too have my own mess with
(01:39):
which I've been dealing. So here we are with an
episode cobbled together from two pre recorded conversations. The first
is part of our ongoing discussion reappraising the big screen
Mission Impossible franchise, and the second part is from a
weekly discussion about the art life that we have with
(02:02):
our pal John Lawler. That's about it, except oh yeah.
You will also hear a couple of selections from Paul
Weller's just released new covers album find El Dorado, and
the great Leonard Nimoy will make a couple of cameo appearances.
(02:22):
Buckle up, smoke him if you got him, and we
will begin. You can talk.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
About Joeybe. You can rib it the color, you can
hurt it.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Alla, let legal, Let legal.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Well, we all know.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
That's old fashion and it can only lead to pain
where we might end up.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
On the corner.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Taking hand up in the rain. We've been talking about
the Mission Impossible films last two weeks. We discussed Mission
Impossible four, Ghost Protocol and Mission Impossible five Roade Nation
in our ongoing reappraisal of the film franchise. We agreed
(03:55):
that four was perhaps the most fun, certainly the most
fun up to that point and five was likely the
best in the entire franchise. Agree, So then we watch
six Mission Impossible Fallout. And I'm not saying that this
proves my case, because I will say it was never
(04:16):
in It never approached my top two until the most
recent rewatch. But you say you want to know why
this worked for me, and I think the onus is
on you because of the fact that far and away
this is the biggest box office success of all of
them by hundreds of millions of dollars globally, and far
(04:38):
and away critically the biggest success of all of them.
I mean, this has an almost unprecedented for the genre
score on Metacritic, and these are the top critics. I mean,
it's like a ninety. It's unheard of, as opposed to
like a ghost protocol, which we love, being like a
seventy three or a seventy four. So there is a
(05:01):
huge gulf in both the box office success and the
critical success.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Right, So that's indication though we know no, it isn't.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
It is an indication. We just don't know what it's
an indication of. And and critical consensus is a context
separate from box office context, certainly, but so I'm putting
the onus on you. Why is this not up there
(05:33):
for you? Because I know that it's not down there
with Mission Impossible two. I know it's not down there
with Mission Impossible one. But why is it not up
there in near the peaks at least even if it's
not out the peaks? And why was it for so
many people? I'm putting both those onuses upon you, and
(05:55):
then all come in with what I appreciate about it.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Okay, So I'm just going to use a macrocosm that
is prevalent through the whole movie. And here's the thing.
The action sequence. The bad guy tied up in the
back of a Brinks truck. He is being you know,
escorted by motorcycles and other weapon weaponized vehicles and Tom
(06:20):
cruise of the team.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Through through the streets of Paris. This is the streets,
the big kind of I don't know if it's the
midpoint or it might actually end of Act one. I
forget now exactly, but but big middle part of the film. Yeah,
the big vehicular action sequence that is common just to
so many of these movies. In the next one, they
(06:41):
would do roam and that's one that I thought was spectacular.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Totally with the door and lots of detail, like lots
of thought to the choreography of all the crashing and
all that sort of thing. So here he is Tom
Cruise sitting beside Carvel there and.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Now James Marble, let's put an end to that rumor
political commentary, say right there, that's the worst James Carvel,
the rage in Cajun. No, it's Henry Cavill.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Henry Cavills, who I've met. Yeah, So Henry Cavill's beside
him in the back of the truck. A team of
masked gunmen ready to go with their plan. So their
plan is.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
And we don't mean mission impossible masks, we mean like
like ski.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Masks and sea masks, actually plastic, they're like leather her face,
a goalie mass kind of thing. Uh So, get this,
a truck, a truck turns on the side and flips
on their main road. They have to take the secondary route.
Nobody from that police escort goes to check on that driver,
like you would think, oh is this a roofs? Like,
(07:47):
clearly already your hackles should be up that a truck
just mysteriously out of nowhere blocks your main route and
so you would think at this point everybody would sort
of not drive faster, but in fact send all weapons
up and ready to go. No. No, they're just driving
peacefully under the bridge. And out comes Tom Cruise and
(08:09):
he pushes the truck into the water, and the other
guy goes, oh, what that guy thinking? Then he backs up,
backs up really fast as all the machine guns start
going off into their window and it goes through the
garage wall on the other side. How did he know
that that would break away? How did he know? I mean,
it's a giant old cement bridge, it's a huge tinder
(08:33):
of cinder blocks and stuff like that. Now goes knocks
it out. Then magically the door opens up and all
the assassins fall out in the sidewalk, and then he
just drives off by hisself, and then you know, changes cars,
and from there every detail was ridiculous, and he finally runs.
(08:55):
He's on a motorcycle chase. He's being chased by the
police through Paris. He hits a car that he didn't see,
goes flying over into the sidewalk, shakes it off, runs
with his knife and over the hedges with the cops
in pursuit, and falls into a boat in the sewer
with the Simon and Luther or Simon Pegluth Banjry happy
(09:17):
to be driving with the hostage. You know. Again, sometimes
you like the oh, that's crazy how they coordinated that.
But that was beyond anything right there, and from that
sequence on I was out. I'm out of that movie.
And I thought the two handers were dull. I thought
they were unenergetic. And you know, then the final plot
(09:41):
of two plutonium devices have to be cut at the
same time while deactivating the trigger switch from the Milwaukee
Takie that was in the other helicopter that's hanging off
the edge of a cliff. You know, you want to
set in a production meeting, I want to hear that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Well, I'm gonna so personally, and then we'll come to
the why of the huge acceptance of it and embrace
of it. But I yeah, as you were describing the sequence,
I was thinking about the importance of actors in the
right characters, because a lot of this film is carried
(10:21):
on the fact that Sean Harris was so good as
the villain in the previous one. His threat is real,
even though he isn't given anything really to do in
this film, but the threat of him is real, sure,
and so it again there's actor, character, it and it,
(10:42):
and it kind of hints at me how much of
that this film is going to rely on. Yeah, Henry
Henry Cavill is a very effective thorn in Ethan's side
turned reluctant collaborator turned actual villain, each of those steps.
(11:07):
I don't think he's a great actor, Henry Cavill. I
like him in things, but I always find him a
bit limited and wish that either he would accept his
limitations and not be pushing against them so obviously, or
that I wish there was greater breath to them. So
(11:30):
I'm damning him with faint praise, of course, But I
think he's perfect for this, not in spite of those facts,
because of those facts, because of the nature of who
he's playing in this and who that person actually is.
All those kind of limitations sort of our revelatory of character.
(11:54):
So great casting of a persona in a role that
itself turns out to be a persona, right, And I
think it's Henry Cavill's best big screen achievement to date.
By the way, is his word in this film. I mean,
what would I compare it to I mean the Superman movies.
(12:15):
They didn't work, I mean Man from Uncle. So the
sequence that you're talking about, the big action sequence, it
was fascinating how little I remembered that given how much
time there is in it. Like the Rome one, I
(12:39):
can't escape like I think about that and we're jumping ahead.
I think about that one. It lives in my memory
and in my imagination, and it gets more and more
exciting the more often I see it. For the reasons
that we talked about last week that some of these
sequences do because we're so captured in our imagination that
we then start to ask, how the hell did they
actually do this?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, how did they shoot that?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
But this one did not live in my memory at all,
and so I was kind of surprised. But the key
to it for me, and the key for why the
movie doesn't lose me, is darn if they don't put
Rebecca Ferguson in in the right time, exactly when she's
needed and what she's given to do in that long
(13:24):
action sequence plants the questions of what is going on,
what's she doing? Why is she doing this? That propelled
me forward in the movie and did I remembered even
back when I saw it on the big screen. So
it comes back to the human element and what a
(13:44):
big part they're carrying in this movie amidst all the
huge action.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
In my mind that, as you said, I think was
eight version rewrite that they said, look, we're gonna lose,
We're losing it here, we need something. Let's bring Rebecca
in and have her and then justify the motivation. Why
she shooting? Why is you now working beside him? Why
she not? This seemed to me a save for the script,
(14:15):
not a feature that was there.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
And I think it, I think it works. I think
I think it literally is a save, and in fact,
now I want to go ahead to the climax of
the film. You described the circumstances. Two different plutonium devices
have to be Uh what did you.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Say, just cut, dismantled, deactivated, exact same time that a.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Pin is being pulled from a remote detonator the remote detonator. Yeah,
three different centers of action. I'm going to say about
that whole sequence, the same thing I would say about
(15:02):
the emotional denu MOI that comes after it, where Michelle Monahan,
who Ethan's wife, who has been reintroduced and shows up
at the end. All of the action, all the setup
and her presence in it is all so heavy handed
(15:26):
and maybe unnecessary that it shouldn't work, but goddamn it
if a lot of it doesn't work, and a lot
of it works because of Michelle Monahan, because of who
she is as a performer. Her working on one of
the devices with Luther is really good. Like it's a
(15:50):
really good scene by between two actors. And never are
you more grateful to like the two performers who are
doing this scene so much, right.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Right, gatic And it's got a ticking clock, I mean
these things, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
But it's but it's still again so heavy handed. All
the films have ticking clocks, all of them, and this
one works really because of the work those two actors
are doing. And then the emotional denouemi at the end,
where Ethan is so apologetic and so regretful of how
(16:28):
everything's turned out and what she's had to go through,
you know, being on the run from him largely and everything,
and the speech she gives in her hands is actually
a real tear jerker. It's the only tier jerker in
the entire franchise. It is so such a brilliant bit
(16:50):
of work for a brilliant actress who rarely has ever
been given her due. I think White Lotus finally got
a lot of people to catch on to how brilliant
she always always been in a wide range of things. Anyway,
just a couple more examples of how much it relies
on the actors in that denou Moir. Also in the
big action piece it is telling. I think that the
(17:15):
showdown between Henry Cavill's character and Ethan and the action
involved is nowhere near as exciting for me as what's
going on in that house with Sean Harris's Solomon Lane
Oh yeah, Benji and Rebecca Ferguson's il Safaust Yeah. Their
(17:39):
showdown is bone crunching and scary and has both immediacy
and personal stakes in addition to the global stakes.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Absolutely, I can't not agree with that. However, they stand
as little oasis amongst the desert of terribleness. I think, so, uh,
you know, you only know you're in the desert when
you see the oasis, right.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
I just think that this is a film I was
thinking about, like the Bond films, which we do compare
it to, For a lot of us for the longest
time to the two best or two of the best
were From Russia with Love and Goldfinger, right, and my goodness,
(18:33):
were they wildly different movies.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
From Russia with Love could have actually happened for crying
out loud, yeah, there wasn't that much. And then Goldfinger
sets the template for what actually the franchise would be. Right, lazy,
but it perfects it. They're both perfect of their type.
And I feel like there is a connection there between
(18:59):
those films and Rogue Nation and Fallout, the one we're
talking about, because my god, they're wildly different, using the
same characters and continuing the same story, but they're almost
two different approaches to the entire franchise and film altogether.
But the highs in this movie are so high. Some
(19:23):
of the ones that I mentioned we haven't talked about.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
The jump, the jump.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
That Cavel and Cruse take in the Lightning Storm, the fight,
the fight sequence that then ensues in the bathroom. Yeah,
after that, like that whole Paris sequence leading up to
the action sequence. Oh man, is that good? Also? I
(19:50):
think in the whole series, my favorite part of the
team working as a team is when Alec Baldwin's secretary
character comes to show up to read them the Riot
Act and to rain them in, and he's actually running
a play. He's actually become part of the team as
(20:12):
a field operative. That whole sequence is so rewarding and
so so I just feel like the the peaks of
Fallout are so good that it carried a lot of weight.
I guess, you know the way the way that with Goldfinger,
(20:33):
And I don't think Goldfinger has the weaknesses that we're describing,
but I am saying that the peaks of Goldfinger, the
summits it attains, are so exciting that that's what cements
its status. Even though when it comes to Bond films,
I prefer a from Russia with love. I prefer for
(20:54):
your eyes only. I prefer the ones, those rare ones
that could actually happen, right right.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, well again, And then so Henry pulls the oxygen
out of his mask just before the jump. I failed
to see the motivation to do that. What just trying
to kill him? And then he gets struck by lightning,
and then Tod has to save him as they're coming
down to three thousand feet Like all of that action
wise spectacular, I couldn't. The photographer had to skydive with
(21:24):
Tom going out that back of the one that you know.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, I think you're being unfair about the thing the
pulling the oxygen. Remember, Cruz has Ethan Hunt has said
we're not going, we can't do the jump out right,
And Henry Cavill's character is going to do the jump
no matter what. He does not need Ethan to fulfill
the mission. Oh that's the point. And in fact, if
(21:48):
you're not going to go, then you're really not going
to go. And he thinks he prevents him from coming,
and it it's an interesting moment, right, It feels again
Ethan is never gonna let anyone unnecessarily die. So even
though this guy tried to prevent him from coming, he's
(22:09):
not doing it to try to kill Ethan. Ethan's already
decided not to go, so he's just sabotaging him so
he can't come. And then Ethan decides to come anyway.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Right because he knows he's gonna get killed if he
doesn't help him.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
If he doesn't help him, yeah, uh, And and also
maybe he doesn't want the other guy succeeding in the
mission without him or or thinks the guy will screw
up the mission or you know whatever it is, right, So, so, Dean,
why I love how long over time we've gone on this?
(22:43):
Why meet up with the Dog? Why? Why the universal
love for this movie? And I'm gonna tie it back
to Bond. I am going to bring that back. Yeah,
but why why? Yeah? Why the universal love for this?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Uh? The year was nineteen or two eighteen? Is that
when this came out? I think so. But anyway, that
was a time of you know, we had the space
space for this kind of movie in our heads, so
I think everybody went, oh, man, this is exciting. And
(23:21):
then Tom Cruise of course going on talk shows and
skydiving with James Gordon, and you know that's him skydiving.
He loves high yeltitude skydiving. So the marketing was right
on this. It landed at the right time for summer release.
To my mind, that was the movie. Everybody was looking
(23:41):
for a Mission Impossible movie at that summer. So it
wasn't that oh my god, word of mouth was this
movie so good? It's oh my god, let's go see
a Mission impossible, crazy action thing, because that's where our
heads at this summer.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Collect if you throw out again Goldfinger and those halcyon
days of Bond and you just look at the rest
of the franchise for you know, from that point on, right,
Skyfall is such an outlier in terms of the box
office and in terms of the critical appraisal. Critics loved it,
audiences loved it as if it was the best Bond
(24:20):
film ever. And you know who doesn't think that it's
one of the best Bond films?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Well, this guy, you yes.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
But also I would say Bond fans, Oh, yeah, is
it possible that this is the Mission Impossible for people
who aren't Mission Impossible fans? Oh, the one that's most accessible,
the most accessible, the biggest, the loudest, the baddest ass
and you can get it. And you can then think
(24:51):
that all of Mission Impossible is this based on this movie?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And it's so big you don't have to work to
get into it. It's done the work for you. I
think that there's part of that. I think what you're saying,
everybody was ready for it. They were getting bigger and
bigger these movies. They were getting bigger and better. From
three four five, they were getting bigger and better. And
let's face it. A lot of times reviews are based
(25:19):
upon momentum in a franchise, so they came to it
and they go, yeah, look at this, they've achieved even more.
And in retrospect, would those reviews have been as strong
if given more time to view and rewatch in context?
Maybe not, But I do think there's a little bit
(25:41):
of a Skyfall kind of embrace going on here, and
the box office shows it for these other two films,
where'd the audience go? A lot of people who love
Fallout didn't come back after the pandemic to these other
movies and weren't there by the way prior to it.
So it got a significant amount of people who'd never
(26:02):
seen it before, and I think it got a certain
amount of critics who never got Mission Impossible the same
way before. And I want to point out just one
other thing in terms of the patterning, because I do
find Mission Impossible as a franchise fascinating, and what I
suggested to you was right. You can view them as
two film increments. One and two they're trying to figure
(26:25):
out what the heck is a Mission Possible movie. Three
and four they're finding it right, and then five and six,
this one being six. They're perfecting it, and the box
office is a fascinating indicator in this one, which was
better than two, nevertheless did not do the box office
(26:48):
the two did. Two was a step down in terms
of quality, but a step up in terms of box office.
It was a huge hit.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Three was a huge drop off in box office while
being a step up in quality. Four a lot more
box office than three, almost double the box office will
still really being linked to it. Right here we are
to five. Five was a drop off, six a huge
(27:20):
step up. The second halves of these movies, of these
pairs all do much better box office than the film prior,
and that's continued with seven and eight. The just released
eight has passed seven both domestically and at the global
box office.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
So you have fatigue, you have franchise fatigue, and then
you have a red franchise reappraisal that we go, oh my.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Gosh, and maybe that that continues over time. Two.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
That'll be fascinating to watch, huh.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
It would be interesting, especially if they decided to continue it.
A night of me hopes they do without Tom Cruise,
not because I don't want to see Tom Cruse do
it anymore, but because I think this franchise and what
they do at their best, like, why not continue this?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Right?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Just don't continue it on a budget of four hundred
million dollars because that's not viable though again also largely
not their fault because a pandemic and strikes though in
the world we live in now and how long these
movies take to make, maybe you better anticipate that there's
going to be upheaval, right that affects your economics, and
(28:34):
you better bake it into the cake beforehand.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Fascinating. I think that's a wise idea because you know
your marketing end of it, it's already take care of.
It's a mission impossible movie. You know the team, the
IMF team, they're they're gone, like you know, we disavowed
knowing you over and over again, just like the TV series.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So I gave a ghost protocol. At that time, the
franchise bet three and a half stars. I gave Rogue
Nation a perfect four stars. I was tempted. I thought,
going into this, well, this will be another four star
movie because of its masterpiece status. But I'm hard pressed
(29:18):
to knock it down much more than a half star
really at this point in time, because yeah, I mean,
I mean I'm thinking about it in terms of context,
so right now I'm giving it a provisional three and
a half stars.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Wow, you're far more generous than I am.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Because what's good is so very very good. Oh my god,
when he's chasing after Henry Cavill in London and he
and Benji doesn't realize that he's elevated, when Benji's directing
him and he goes, why aren't you turning there? Why
aren't you turning there? Because he doesn't know that Tom
(29:57):
Cruise is a top building right the end go up
to escape and oh my god, in that office when
he finds himself in the bank of offices and he's
got to break the window and jump to a neighboring building.
The reaction of extras, what great extra work, second unit direction,
and and oh my god, I can't unsee Tom Cruise
(30:20):
breaking his ankle on that jump, because he really does.
When he hits the wall, shattered his ankle.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
And that's the worst of it. Fine started at Joe,
which started.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Cry but I.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Didn't see that good Joe.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
So jents. You'll remember a while back we played with
something called oblique strategies and they're they're a deck of cards.
There are a deck of cards that were authored by
Brian Eno, Yes and uh and Peter Schmidt and and
(31:21):
designed for creative people to you know, break through any
blocks or just to you know, spark new ideas and
or new ways of of doing things. And so last
night I pulled the deck out and fanned them out,
(31:44):
and of course they're all identical. On the back, they're
all just black cards, and then the other side is
white with with a line typed on them and H
and I fanned them all out, and I asked Lily
two in this order, pick one for Dean, pick one
(32:04):
for John, and then pick one for me. Okay, So
I will reveal the cards that she intuitively picked, the
oblique strategies the card for Dean Hagland A question, A
question for you answering questions? Well, I think where you're concerned,
(32:27):
John and I could both offer you many answers to
this question.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
I love answering other people's questions. It's why I'm a
white guy.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Wo WHOA?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Okay? Was the question?
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Is there something missing?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Uh tea in my studio?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So should we?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Should we answer? For him? John?
Speaker 4 (32:53):
I like that you gave it no thought whatsoever. You
immediately went to, wait.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
That's a good John, John's more gentle, and yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Thought thought, oh yeah, thought oh yeah, it was beautiful though,
thank you. And you started looking around though.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, well I was double checking is something missing?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Because that's immediate. But well and also, dear lord.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
You just moved everything out of your house and you
suddenly had to move everything back in, and the question
is there something missing?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
It does not occur to you that, oh, maybe there
is something.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Maybe there is something busy in fact, how you think's missing?
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Well, that thing?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Every day we say, hey, where's that thing? I don't
know it's missing, or it could be the studio, or
maybe it's in the house or in the basement or
in the garage, could be any one of those things.
So the answer is yes, I'm not sure if I.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Got it right right, And I'm going to just suggest
and we'll come back to you in a minute. But
of all people to answer a question yes and not yes,
and is really horrible that it's you right now.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Answers yes, and I'm not missing it. Something's missing, and
I don't miss it a bit.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
How's that again? Maybe a thoughtfulness, a yes, a sanity,
a serenity, all right, but these are these are all right?
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (34:29):
John? John? I thought this. I go, oh, well, she's
she's far afield. And then you revealed what has been
planned thus far for you and your wife's fortieth birthday party,
and I immediately flashed on the card little picked for you.
It's one word repeated with a comma in between. Decorate decorate. Hm,
(34:58):
what comes to mind the if I had not, if
I'd not tip my hand that I immediately thought about
your birthday party? Uh? What would would? Would? Would those
words make you think of anything else, anything that you've
got going on, anything creatively, any challenges in front of you? Decorate, decorate?
Speaker 4 (35:20):
I mean I do always feel like I'm trying to
like make a neatness before I can be creative. But
that's not really decorating. All Yeah, all I can think
of is is holiday decorations. And I know that's kind
of obvious, but at the same time, it's the reason
(35:43):
for the season. It's like why I I like I
like the I like the holidays about to come up
a very big I sent.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
You some of my artwork. I still say it up, Well, do.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
You also see the mess I've made.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
That's the This is.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
Where I'm like kind of feeling where I'm like, wow,
I came up here and I forgot that Kelly wanted
to switch rooms. So now we're in different rooms. But
stuff had to come out and move around, and now
up here's a mess again. But the goal was to
clean it, and I started moving things bit by bit,
and then this happened on the weekend, and so now
(36:22):
I'm not back to square one, but I am a
little bit more messy than I was, and that the
point is so that we can finish up this side
of the room. Because originally I wanted it. I don't
know if I wanted it. I thought it was going
to just be simple, and then I saw the side
that she created and I was like, well, I want
(36:45):
that over here now too, So so yeah, so now
we switched the You know, now I'm facing in the
other direction, and there's going to be stuff that goes up,
including the artwork, and I just haven't done it yet.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I know the one only man, I gotta te not
on hooks.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
And though Dean, it's interesting because a big part of
the process of remodeling the house, not necessarily the inspiration
behind the the thing. But a big part of how
you went about it was with ideas of decoration in mind, right,
(37:29):
I mean the process of the backsplash for crying out loud.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Right out loud, right, a decor backsplash that you printed
in Florida that you have to get back here before
the tiling guy left. Yeah, that was a lot of work.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
And so this idea of decorating being somehow I think
people can fall into the trap creative, people can fall
into the trap, right, like it comes last, right, But
sometimes it's actually the piece that if you know how
you want to decorate, it's informing how you go about
(38:04):
the work to get the actual task done. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
It also makes me think of the word like a
decorated soldier.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Well, that was the other thing that yeah, kind of
blew my mind. Is conferring an award or a medal
on someone or a steam in some way.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
So.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Decorate, decorate, So if that came to mind, why would
that come to mind other than it being a definition.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Well that I think I think that's rather dismissive of
the guy's work, that he got the metal and maybe
I feel the better and we just call it. Oh,
I decorate it, like, I'm decorated. What the hell? This
metal symbolizes courage and facing diversity. It's not a simple
(38:56):
two tone shade of the baseboard. It's like that that's
decorate to decorate us somebody for a virtue seems they
should have another word, but not for you.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Maybe, so that's something that's missing, is a new word something.
Something that's missing is being able to hold the tension
of the opposites between art and decoration. Perhaps, but John
led this by going to Christmas and that the decorations
(39:33):
of the reason for the season. So that's not superfluous,
that's not in that sense. You know, being decorated isn't
without meaning in the case of the holidays, it's the
actual reason. It is the meaning.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Yeah, I like, and I also think, I guess what
also makes me think about getting things ready is the
feeling of being in a room that is holiday themed
during a holiday, it feels like you're actually living a memory,
(40:13):
like you're actually there now all of a sudden, you're
you feel ready to be there. And I think the
same goes for like when I'm working in a creative space.
As inspiring as I find it to look at a
space of someone who is notoriously you know, a famous artist,
and it's just a it's just an absolute disaster of
(40:36):
a house or whatever, and it's just very messy, and
it's like, oh, that's so, that's so creative, and now
they're living in it. And yet I also feel like
that also gives me like hives, and I feel like
I would only be able to do that if everything
I needed was right in front of me at all times,
(40:57):
because the moment I have to go looking for something,
the moment I'm lost, and so uh oh.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, cut your focus.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
Yeah, I wouldn't want to. I wouldn't want that to
be that. I would want there to be a disaster
area behind me, but for everything I was doing, it
would need to be in front of me.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Right, So that food that is beautiful to look at
may not taste good, but but food that tastes good
and is beautiful to look at is preferable to food
that tastes great and isn't beautiful to look at.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Yeah, it looks like weird.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
And it's the same with like proposals receiving creative proposals. Yeah,
the the polished and beautiful proposal may end up being hollow. Yeah,
but the proposal that's beautiful to look at, that has
good ideas is preferable to the one that's brilliant that
(41:58):
isn't beautiful to look at, and and and all I
can say is getting back to John's analogy of the play,
the room is ready, the house is ready. It's it's
ready to support life through celebrating, right, because it's a holiday.
(42:21):
And for me so much, my mantra these days is
reminding myself that we celebrate things to express why they matter.
So the more you lead with this visual and and
and visceral impression that hey, this place is ready, you've
(42:48):
already expressed to a degree why things matter, why it matters, right,
And so that's why you know the proposal that looks
beautiful in is polished. You've already told me that this
matters to you. Ah, I don't have to do that
work of going in and going hey, god, damn, this matters. Yeah,
(43:17):
and yeah. Sometimes you've set me up to believe it
mattered to you. And then I look at it and
I go, well, you didn't care. You're good at decorating.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Well, that's true all art too, right, what seems to
be selling a lot these days is the superficial versus
thing that has a deeper connection to artist intent.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
So John, and that that may be this idea of celebrate, right,
is where the two definitions come together, just the two
definitions of decorate of making something look more attractive, let's say,
right by the the lights and the you know, the
the decorative arts, right yeah, and then the other element
(44:09):
of you know, conferring some sort of award or status
on to some one or something because of outstanding qualities
that they have expressed or exhibited. Both of those definitions,
seemingly different are joined because of celebration.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yes, absolutely, because you want to celebrate them.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
So if we take it out of the idea of
the physical the space that you're working in, for example,
birthday parties, if there is anything that you can think of,
what is like a character quality, you know, a part
of human nature that maybe you wish was you know,
(45:06):
confirmed greater status upon someone or something or something, is
you know in this day and age.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
Mm, yeah, that's a good question. I'm sure there's many
of them, actually, I can. I mean, that's.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
That's but you know, that's the that's to me, the
antidote for shaking our fists at the at the behavior
that gets lauded in a in a indecent society, that
(45:47):
is no. Okay, well, we're going to decorate what matters.
We're going to reinforce, at least with each other, that
these are the.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Things that matter, the virtues of courage and.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Or for just virtues or just virtues.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yes, yeah, manners exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Okay, well you just said the virtue of courage. So
my card one word with an exclamation work. Can you
look at that? Courage?
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Ay?
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Courage? So I had just minutes before revealed to her,
maybe a half hour before, revealed to her how much
these little notes from her sister that I get mean
to me through this whole process we will call cancer.
(46:42):
I find that when her sister reaches out to me
to find out how I'm doing and lets me know
that this is she's reaching out specifically to me for me,
for my well being, that it moves me. And it
came up because I had received one of these messages
from her and didn't thank her for to writer back
(47:03):
for a month. And I realized that sometimes because I'm
rarely at a loss for words, but sometimes I am
so moved by something that it makes me go quiet.
And so that led to a little bit of a
larger discussion, and I revealed to Lil that I find
(47:29):
that every day there is at the point comes at
every single day where I am sure I am about
to utterly break down every day once but not. But
there's no congruence between time or place or something. It's
(47:49):
just up here. It comes here, comes high tide. So
I'm I was at the point of saying, I maybe
that's just my new normal, and that's okay, you know,
And so once a day and so then I get
this card Courage exclamation mark. So I knew she'd picked
(48:12):
the right card for me, but I was interested in
the idea, and so I throw this into the room.
I've already looked at this and thought about this, but
Dean saying, we need another word. So here's two words
that get used interchangeably, courage and bravery. Right, but they
(48:34):
are different words, so they must mean something different. And
I'm wondering if this is not a quiz about what
the definition is. But I am curious about when you
hear those two words, what is the difference to you,
if anything?
Speaker 2 (48:51):
But to me, I think, well, one of them is
being afraid and acting anyway. So it's not the a
ration of fear. It's that you acknowledge you're fearful and
still go forward with your task or whatever. It's often
in theater where you are, oh my god, I'm gonna
(49:13):
be so vulnerable and exposed and I can't do the
scene or whatever, but then you acknowledge that you are
afraid of that and then carry on with the scene.
As is so to my mind that I would call bravery,
I think, and then courage. What you think it's the.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
No no, no, no no no go ahead, no no, no,
go ahead, go ahead, So then courage.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Right now, because then courage is the idea that I
am courageous, like the cowardly lion suddenly gets courage. Right.
So this is a way of being, whereas bravery is
living in acknowledging fear and doing anyway as an action. Courage,
on the other hand, is the act of going through
(50:01):
the world refusing to let fear be the thing. Right,
I'm not gonna live looking behind me. I'm not gonna
you know, always have worried about, well, what that guy
thinking over there or whatever. So the courage to go
forward is different than bravery.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
In action, John, is there anything you want to add
or or refute or.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Now?
Speaker 4 (50:30):
I mean I was thinking, like very literally, I was like,
I guess courage is like the feeling. Bravery is the action. Yeah, Like,
maybe courage is what you need to be brave.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Oh that's interesting. Bravery is.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
The uh an act of bravery?
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Yeah, I like. I like the idea of you know,
relationship between things like finding with this idea of decorate
and decorate. Oh, there is an At first, those two
definitions seem so different because they're different contexts. Oh, but
there's an act that makes them the same, which is
what are we celebrating and how do we want to
(51:14):
celebrate it? And that's what goes into how we decorate
for the season or the holiday, and that's how we
go into what metal we're giving people. But what John's
hinting at is I think, yeah, a relationship between those
two ideas because it's it's yeah, one allows you to
(51:36):
act in this way. I think about it this way.
Bravery is the ability to act in the face of fear.
Courage involves acting despite fear with intentionality and deliberation.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Oh, Bravery is thrust upon you. Right, something has come
up in the moment and your U I think of
it as a performer, Right, something comes up that is frightening,
(52:21):
be it an improv or an emotion within you, and
even a scripted piece that you've done many times before.
This is terrifying and the bravery in the face of
it to not shy away from it, to go through
it right or to explore it. But courage is the
thing that got you on the stage in the first place. True,
(52:44):
and so it is there is that difference, But it
is also I think, to a really brilliant degree, what
John's describing, because if I don't show the courage to show.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Up, I'll never know if I'm.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
I'm yeah, I'm never having the opportunity. Yeah. And there
are different measures of fear, right, Why why would I
be afraid to go on stage? Like right now? Also courage?
Like I I listened and it made my insides just
clam up. On the New Voice of Los Felis podcast,
I was interviewing, as I told you, about the people
(53:22):
who for forty years have been operating the Wizard of
Art Studios here in Los Felis, and I found myself
saying to the minute, I'm coming in and taking art classes.
And immediately, upon listening to that interview back and editing it,
I wanted to cut that part out because it's you.
(53:43):
It's terrifying. So the courage will get me in the door.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
Right, tacking up the brush and painting well.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
In the moment, the voice is of fear of I'm
sucking at this. I'm the bravery it takes to just
keep going. The kind of courage is a choice. I
think bravery I've been thinking about a lot because people
will say, you know, Lil her Aunt and her, we're
(54:14):
talking about this, You're so brave in the face of this,
And there is an element when you are being your
most brave where you just realize, I don't have a choice,
you know, It's just it's I'm either gonna be me
or not be me right, And yeah, that's a choice
(54:35):
per se. But showing up at the art studio is
an actual choice because I can build so much in
my life that makes that just not a smart thing
to do. I'm busy. Who has the money to spend
on art classes? All these things? It does become choices.
(55:01):
You have to make choices so that you have the
time and you have the money to go do this
thing that you're terrified of doing.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Right. But I think terror is also a frame of
mind per se because I often tell my improv students.
If I thought to myself, I'm going on stage without
a script for an hour by myself in a packed
comedy club and I'm going to do that night after
night and cities all over the world, I would not
do it because it sounds terrifying and it sounds completely undoable.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
And yet you've been saying that so long now that
it's not true.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (55:40):
And this is and there's what I mean that. I
think courage is what allows us, to a degree to
be brave. Getting back to what John said, Yeah, you know,
the courage of showing up and doing it. So the
truth is, if you were confronted by that idea now,
(56:03):
you would be able to do it because you call
back on the fact that you have acted courageously and
shown up. So sometimes that's what allows us to be
brave in the moment, is to be able to realize, hey,
I've made courageous decisions before, right, I can be brave now.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
This can happen.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
It sort of reminds me of that episode of the
original Star Trek where they're in that Western set, but
they're still dying from blanks and stuff because in their
mind it's the real West and spot casts to give
them the mind meld, to make them realize that it's
all it's all an artifice, right, so that they can
then have the braver We're going to walk down the
(56:49):
street in the Western set, and it's always to me like,
oh yeah, if I just had some vulcan that could
retrain my frame of reference, I could do so much
without fear and seemingly be brave.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
We have a loyal listener, Greg Vincent, brilliant musician who
is going to be beside himself that you've brought up
Specter of the Gun from the Star Trek.
Speaker 2 (57:15):
Yeah. Specter of the Gun such a great episode. It's like,
oh my gosh, it requires just a minimal Western set.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
I think the words that you were looking for, Dean
are the bullets are unreal.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
The bullets are unreal without body, They are illusions, only
shadows without substance. They will not pass through your body,
(57:51):
for they do not exist.
Speaker 1 (57:54):
There was a time when I did have every episode
memorized and this is Inside Baseball again just for for
our listener, Greg Vincent. But if I had enough beer
in me, it would come out automatically very bad. Yeah,
(58:17):
but you're right. I mean, it is such a brilliant,
brilliant idea. I was thinking about like this again, this relationship.
Why why do we have fears? Why are some people
afraid of public speaking? Why are some people afraid of
I used to be afraid of swimming in the ocean,
(58:39):
and the reason for it was because the way I
felt was the exact same way I feel when I'm
on a tall building. It was actually a fear of heights.
Like why why do we have these things? What possible
benefit is it to us? And I'm sure that there's many, right,
but I would say that one of them is because
(59:01):
things that threaten us will come up naturally in life,
threaten our physical well being as well as our emotional
wellbeing and our mental wellbeing, and people around us threats
will occur. That's just part of nature. Having ingrained fears
(59:28):
that we can learn to face, prepare us for those
moments when fear confronts us unexpectedly. Because we have histories
of courageous action, or histories of failing to act in
(59:49):
courageous fashion, to learn from and to draw on, so
that we can hopefully know in the moment, I know
what to do here, I've got this, I'll be all
all right, just that innate knowing of I've I've embraced
death before, because that's how it feels when you're really
(01:00:09):
terrified of public speaking, for example, it's death. Yeah, you know,
like Seinfeld's line, right, the two biggest fears consistently that
people have. Their biggest fear is fear of public speaking.
Their second biggest fear is the fear of death. And
as he always pointed out, that literally means that at
(01:00:30):
a funeral you would rather be the one in the
box than the one delivering the eulogy. It is death
because of and then we go down like real psychological
rabbit holes, but because it's immolation of ego and control
and all the things that we equate with life. But
if we can do those things, and we can practice
(01:00:54):
in that way, then when the real stuff hits the fan,
like my wife having cancer, then I'm not falling apart.
I feel every day like I'm gonna fall apart. But
I'm not doing it, and this too shall pass.
Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
And that's the definition of a courage right there.
Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
That's bravery in the face of the feeling. That's bravery
in the face of the feeling because there is nothing
for me to do, there is nothing for me to
act upon as as courage. But I think the maintaining
(01:01:40):
courage is what allows me. Is getting back to John,
I guess this has been a twenty minute way of
saying I agree with what John said. It's courage that
allows much time. It's courage that allows me to act
with bravery, and it's also me taking twenty minutes that
(01:02:02):
allows us both to fill the rest of the podcast,
which is what we needed to do, and give you
time to finally answer the goddamn question, what is missing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Two dog sweaters? Now that you mention it, I don't
know where they are. They've been missing for.
Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
Four years now, wow, four years.
Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
I know these lovely acrylic turtlenecks.
Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
And you care about them because they've been gone and
you still remember, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
And they must be here somewhere in the house or
the studio. We have gone over this place twice. Now
we're about to do a third complete dig up. Of everything,
and we still haven't found these dog sweaters. So there
you go, because we packed them in Australia and that
came directly here. And everything that was in Australia came
(01:02:48):
to this place here, didn't go to la and so
it's got to be here somewhere. We just haven't seen
it in four years, five years now, near mind, I've
been here five years in Detroit.
Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
Oh wow, Well we're gonna leave on a cliffhanger. I
think for chillpack Hollywood Hour anyway, because my god, the
dream of that is great.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
And real.
Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
Appearances only their shadows, illusions, nothing but ghosts a reality.
They are lies, falsehoods, specters without body. They are to
(01:03:39):
be ignored.
Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Belated spoiler alert
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com