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June 5, 2025 32 mins
Dustin Heard is one of the Raven 23 that was unjustly prosecuted for doing his job by the Obama administration. This is his father telling thwe story. 

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, host of Chosen Generation, and I want to thank
you for tuning in. I'm really pleased to have with
me Stacy Hurd, who is the father of Dustin heard.
Dustin is one of the four men who was charged
in the Blackwater incident that took place in Iraq in

(00:21):
two thousand and seven. And if you've been following along,
you know that we've done some interviews with regards to
this issue and with regards to some of what really happened.
And so I've asked Stacy to join me to talk
a little bit about Dustin and his background and just
to give us some understanding of who he is and

(00:42):
to share a little bit about some of the things
that he's witnessed over the course of this seven years,
going through what y'all are going through still and what
you've been through. So Stacy, welcome to the program.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
It's good to it's good to have you with me.
Let's start with where did Dustin grow up.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Dustin grew up in the small town of Olney, Texas.
And for a lot of you people that don't know
where that is, it's forty miles south of wichitall falls
and which most people know where which Tell Falls is,
but he was pretty much. That's where he was born
and raised until he turned eighteen. And then after that's

(01:31):
when he took off, went and joined the Marine Corps.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Now, how long did he serve in the Marine Corps?

Speaker 2 (01:38):
He served four years in the Marine Corps.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
And what were his duties while he was in the
Marine Corps.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
He was an expert machine gunner, Okay, infantry.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
And how many he served four years? What theaters was
he involved in when he was there?

Speaker 2 (01:55):
He was in Bahrang I think I'm pronouncing it right,
and he was in Afghanistan and pardon me, and in Iraq.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Now, in the time that he was in the service,
he spent four years. He advanced as as he went.
Tell us a little bit about that history.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
He served his four years. He did his boot camp
in California, which that is Campbell June, and then from
there he wound up going to several different places. That's
that's been a while. I can't remember everywhere that he's been,
but I know at one point in time he was

(02:41):
out and in the North Carolina, Virginia area, and then
that's when he started going to the overseas stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, Now during the time you know that he served,
he spent his four years in he came home. What
made him decide to get involved with Blackwater and and
that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, he still wanted to serve his country, and you know,
he was it was kind of one of those things
where he loved being a marine, but he also wanted
to use the skills to try to help others by
joining in the Blackwater where you know, he could go

(03:30):
over and protect people. Okay, And you know, he really
wasn't in it just for the money. He was in
in it because he loved the service. And uh, you know,
he would go over there and we'd talk. You know,
he was pretty excited about being in the different countries

(03:51):
and you know, just you know, just doing what he
loved to do, and that was served the United States well.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
And and you know what a lot of folks don't
understand is is that the security contractor's job, generally speaking,
they're hired by the State Department and by other diplomatic organizations, yes,
to provide security so that the mission, the diplomatic mission

(04:19):
can be carried out in these different parts of the
world and create a safety net for those individuals to
carry out those.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
He that's one of the things that he would tell
me about that. You know, they they escorted a lot
of the officials from the United States, and he told
me several different names, and there's a lot of them
that I can't remember, but you know it was a
lot of your senators and some of your governors. Rick

(04:53):
Perry was one of them that he was on a
on a detail. Yeah, he was on a escort service
with him. And then you kind of get into like
your country and Western singers. Toby Keith was another one.
Then there was you know, he's several senators. Like I said,
my mind, he told me all these different ones at

(05:15):
the time, but he was there to protect those people.
That's what he loved doing.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Is protecting right and which is which is we might
note a defensive posture. Yes, I mean your your primary
job is is to create a line of defense, and
if the situation warrants it, your your first mode of
operatus is to withdraw from the situation, not engage, which

(05:45):
which is a different tact than he might have been
using in his job as a marine. As a marine
you were sent into forward action, but as a security specialist,
which it sounds like that's what he really enjoyed. It
was more about, you know, pulling them back and providing
protection for them.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes, you know, that's one of the things that he
did well. Is he protected you know, the people that
he was assigned to. And you know in his training,
you know, he you know, you got to make split
decision decisions second, you know, just you just got to
make the decisions right then and there, and you know

(06:27):
you're supposed to. For him, it was protect whoever he
was supposed to be protecting, and his brother beside him
right than himself. And you know, that's just one thing
that he was good at.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
In the situation that took place in two thousand and seven,
if I might, how did you first hear about it?
How did you hear that there had been a situation
and what news came to you?

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Well, I didn't find out automatically if something took place.
Dustin would call and say I'm all right. Then he
said I'll get with you. Then I really didn't find

(07:21):
out until the news media got a hold of it. Okay.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
So when you say he would call, obviously he was
on high level security details. There were times when they
would come under a threat and it would be necessary
for him to get a hold of the asset and
with the team get them out of harms. And so
as a father, obviously, you know when you knew that

(07:49):
he was in an area and you're hearing on the
news all these stories about things that are happening in
an area that you know that your son, you know,
at the end of the day, when they get done
with all the news reports, you're looking for a call
from him to say, hey, Dad, everything's good. Uh, you know,

(08:10):
And and it may even have been a situation where
they weren't even anywhere near any danger, but the news
is reporting that the area is dangerous exactly, And you
just want to know at the end of the day
that my son is fine. Yep, yep, my boy. My
boy's not not been in isn't in danger, or he's
fine or whatever. I don't need any details. I just

(08:32):
want to know that.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
There's a lot of things I didn't want to know
the details on. And and then some of the stuff
that Dustin did tell me. You know, there was nothing
really major until this this incident right here, and there's
a lot of the details that I still don't know
because you know, he's there's a lot of things, you know,

(08:55):
he just wouldn't talk about. And I know my son's
not lying to me. When my son said, Dad, I
was shot at That's all I can tell you. Yeah,
And we left it at that. Well. I didn't pressure him.
I didn't ask sure.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Well, he's a grown man.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
He's a grown man.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
You know, he's a grown man. And he's and he's
handling his business, his affairs.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yes, that's what he was trained to do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Well you raised him up to be honest and with
integrity and and to be a responsible young man and
take care of his responsibilities.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yes, he learned responsibility at a young age. He would
go with me out onto the farm and we'd work.
We we took care of cows, We plowed, I mean,
we hunted, we fished, we had we had a good
time growing up.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, you and him both, and both you and him both.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
We both did. And to this day he still loves fishing.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
How about that?

Speaker 2 (09:56):
So, I mean, you know, he just that's one of
his things. He loves get out there on the lake
by himself and just go fish.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah. What is the thing about all of this that
has transpired that has surprised you? The most. I mean
that that that that has just kind of caught you
maybe a little off guard if you're if you're okated
to share that piece for a minute as a parent.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
As a parent, uh, you know, for me, what my
son has told me, I believe it's all to be true.
And one of the most upsetting things is the media
paints those guys as animals that they have literally just

(10:46):
gone over and massacred innocent people. And it's really disappointing
in how our government the way that they have done
these four young men. I mean, it's just you know,

(11:12):
for this country to do what they've done, and what
they've not just done to him. It is these other
soldiers you know that have gone over and fought for
their country and had to make that split decision moment.
You know, nobody wants to just go over and pull
the trigger on anybody, right, you know. It's just like

(11:35):
the white Sadan that they keep talking about, Well, they
have to if the cars advancing like that, they have
to take it out because it's a threat to whoever
they're protecting and to theirselves, you know, as long as
the cars rolling, which it was, Yeah, they had to

(11:57):
take the car out. And you know, he just didn't
go over and say I'm just gonna come kill whoever. All. No,
he was over there to protect and do a job.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Well, I think, I think, yeah, I think you've shared,
you know what his heart's desire why he wanted to
do that as opposed to I mean, he could have
stayed in the Marines mm hmm. He wasn't mustered out,
he finished his tour, but he could have easily re upped.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
He was.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
He was a machine gunner, so he was in a
in an offensive posture as a machine gunner, obviously, but
he chose to change vocation, use some of the skills
that he had learned, and become a protector, yes, as
opposed to where he had been before, which was more

(12:44):
in an attacking position. But I'm sure as a gunner
that he also did some protecting of you know, troops
on the ground, guys that were that they were pulling
out of the field, you know, those those kinds of situations.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, he always told me that he saw all the
world's backwards because he was always looking at the back vehicle.
He rode in the back. Okay, he was the turret
gunner back there, and you know like I said, like
a lot of the stuff that he did over there,
you know, he just didn't come home talk about it.
Wasn't nothing to brag about, you know that. You know

(13:19):
if something went kind of how you are you know,
but he was always you know, he always talked about
how proud he was, you know that he was serving. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Well, you know the challenge when you're in a combat
situation is you know that you're you're you're going to
have to experience things that the average civilian. No, none
of us will never never, never under never experiences and
never understands.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Now, we'll never understand it because we've none of us
have never been there. Now are the majority of you?

Speaker 1 (13:49):
You raised your son on your own for a number
of years, yes, correct.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yes, he and uh I. I had his mother and
I divorced and then I got custody of him when
he was five years old. And then his stepmother came
into his life at the age of ten. Okay, and

(14:16):
she's been more of a mother figure to him than
his own biological mother. A matter of fact, she's not
even in the picture no more. But his only mother
that he really knows is my wife, Lauana, right, and
they pretty well bonded. And you know she respects him,
he respects her.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Now you mentioned, you know, looking your son in the face,
and and and him looking at you and just saying, Dad,
here's the deal. Here's what I can tell.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
You in what I can't.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
And yeah, and and and and here's the deal.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
You've known him all his life.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
How high of a of a priority did you did
you put? I mean, I've got five kids, okay, and
I go four And I always told my you know,
I told my kids, I said, look, I don't care.
I don't care. You know if you make we all
make mistakes. Oh yeah, you know, when they was little,
you know, I don't care. Just but fess up, tell

(15:25):
me what's going on. You know, Truth's more important than
anything else.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
He always knew it was easier to tell me the
truth than it was the lie to me because I
didn't take lies very well.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
But yeah, I think as a parent you kind of
have that instinct.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, and you know, my son, he's he his integrity,
his his work ethics, everything, you know, it was all
good and it's still good to this day. Yeah, you know,
it's just you know, he's just kind of being held back.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Now now as it relates to that, you said, you know,
the media has painted these guys with this particular picture.
If there was something and I think you've done some
of that, but maybe to encapsulate it. If there was
something about Dustin that you really wanted to make sure

(16:25):
people understood about your son, that's so different than the
picture that's been painted. What would that be.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Number One, He's not a monster. He loves his family,
he loves his kids, he loves life. He would not
take another human being's life just for fun. He was
there to do a job and and I can promise you,

(17:03):
you know, just for you hear people you know, hey,
you know, I just want to go over and kill
as men as I can, you know, pay back and
all this kind of stuff. He wasn't one of those guys.
I mean, you know he was he when things happen,
he used his best judgment that he could. And for

(17:27):
the media of the painting as a monster, it's just unbelievable.
He's if you if you actually knew Dusting in person,
you would see what a good person he is. He
loves a joke, he loves, you know, just to enjoy.
He loves being around his family, and it's just hard

(17:49):
for me when somebody wants to say something bad about him,
because I know he's not a bad person.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
You have now, how long was Dustin with Blackwater and
the security agencies?

Speaker 2 (18:06):
I believe it was three years total, is what he
served as Blackwater, Okay, because he went in right at
the end of when he got out of the Marine Corps.
There might have been a small gap in between the
Marine Corps and then when he went into Blackwater Okay.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
So he was in the Marine Corps from what roughly
twenty three twenty four until about twenty eight something like that.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
Uh, nineteen ninety nine is I believe when he went
in the Marine Corps, because once again he was when
nine to eleven happened. He was close to when close
up there in that area, and you know, we thought

(18:53):
the whole world had came to you know, just come
to the end basically, and I thought, well, here goes
my son off to war. And it's one of those
phone calls. He calls me, he said, Dad, we haven't
been deployed yet. I'm still here. Then he hung up.
You know, it's just that's his way of communicating. Yeah,
that's what I can do sure, But so some sometime

(19:16):
that timeframe right in there, around two thousand and three,
two thousand and fours, when he went into Blackwater.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
Now he was in of course, until two thousand and seven,
after all this took place. He did not go back
into theater again, Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (19:33):
No, Now, he had messed up his back pretty bad,
so he was fixed to come home before all this
happened in September, Okay, And anyhow, you know, he was
trying to get checked out while he was over there,

(19:54):
and then in this incident took place, he.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
Comes home, the initial investigation clears them. Yeah, a secondary
investigation basically the judge said there's not anything here. This
is all needs to be thrown out. And that was done,
and then you went in the trial phase. Now, I
don't want you to have to get in I don't

(20:19):
want to get into all of the legality of that.
However much you want to get into it, that's fine.
But the question I have is is so over over
the course of that you know, period of time he's
at home, you got to know a lot of the

(20:39):
Blackwater family, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, out of this incident.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Is that is that an accurate statement to some degree.
I mean, you got to know some of the guys
that he'd been with.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
And I'm met two of the of the gentleman that
he was with. I met Nick h Nick Nick and Paul.
To the other boys that's incarcerated, the only one I
haven't met is even Okay. And when I was around

(21:11):
those guys, they they came out to our little farm
that we have and we all sit down at the
we caught it tanks mostly everybody else calls it ponds.
But anyhow, we sat down there and had this little campfire,
and you know, we was sitting there, you know, just
kind of socializing. Sure, and I just kind of set

(21:32):
back over listening to those guys, and you know, they
was talking about different things, and you know they was
and you know, it was nothing bad that they talked about.
It's just you know, they knew how to handle situations
instead of trying to shoot somebody up. You know, like
they was around a brick wall. They would talk about
how they would shoot up above to make the rocks

(21:54):
fall down on them. You know, It's just stuff like that,
and you know, instead of just trying to go over
and kill you know, that's yeah, they tried to handle
it in a better way.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
As as you talked with them, and as as you
got to know them and spend time with those boys,
what was your general impression of the young men that
your son was associating with.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
They were all gentlemen, well disciplined. I mean, you know,
they were all very easy going. I mean, you know,
it was just you couldn't ask for better men to
be around. I mean I felt comfortable with them from
them the time I shook their hands, all the time
they left, and you know, I welcome to my home.

(22:48):
Even after even if Dustin wasn't around, they could have
came and stayed with me and did whatever. I wouldn't
have cared. I mean, to me, they felt like there
was extensions of sons to me, and you know, to me,
they're they're still like my extended sons.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
As you know, being involved in this situation, did you
get to know any of the families at all?

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Have you? Have you gotten to just through social media? Okay?
And I haven't which tonight I have actually, you know,
met a few people, gotten to know some and I'm
gonna get to know them better. Yeah, you know, it's uh,
I'm I'm slowly getting around where you know, I can

(23:34):
actually get in the wrap places to you know, actually
meet and talk to some of these people. Yeah, and
from what I read about, you know, the different families,
different things on the social media that you know, everybody's
got some interesting stories. You know, these kids wasn't raised
so bad. They all had a good upbringing.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
I think when you talk about, you know, how how
the media has has portrayed you know, these guys, and
what they have said and and and how they've gone
about saying it, it leaves someone with this, with this
as you said, this impression and as you share with

(24:19):
me as a father.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
I mean, you know.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Your son was raised in a in a in a
good environment, and and he wasn't raised to just go
out and and do what is what the media's image
has been exactly.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
You know, he he was raised, uh, he knew rat
from Rome, he knew how to you know, he didn't
get into trouble when he was a kid. I mean,
you know, he wasn't one of those you know it's
going out and tearing stuff up and you know, just
being a little monster. I mean you know by no means,

(25:01):
but I mean, you know it's just to me, you know,
the way they paint the picture of them, It's just
totally wrong. They don't know nothing about these guys, every
one of these guys. You know, I've only like I said,
I know my son and the two others that I've met.

(25:22):
And these guys got good morals behind them.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
You know that That raises the question, Stacy two, what
I mean, the social the media, the mainstream media painted
this picture, painted this image. How many of them took
the time to sit down like you and I are
and have a conversation.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
I've actually talked to nobody. You're the first person I
have talked to about this.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
So nobody came to find out, I mean, because you know,
we read the stories, you know, talking about the stories
in the paper about you know, the guy that went
to the school and this and that, and you know,
and and and then you know, you have the interview
and and and then they go after and they talk
to the family and they want to know, you know, what,
what was this? But they've painted pictures.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Of how they wanted it, how they wanted it to be.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
And and no one took the time to come and
and is it possible, Stacy, because there wasn't anything to find.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Exactly whatever they can make up to fit the way
the administration wants it to be is what they have
written down. They haven't taken the time to totally research this.
I mean, it's like they want to say, well, they
got carried away and just shut all these innocent people
over here. Now when you actually have pictures and evidence

(26:52):
showing that there's bullet holes and the vehicle that they
was in, you know, then you got your you got
your media out there saying, oh, these guys were monsters,
you know, they just shot people up for the fun
of it. Yeah, but you know, no, I mean, you know,
it's just it's just kind of one of those deals.

(27:14):
You know. It's just I don't know, I get frustrated
with a lot of it.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
You know.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
It's like I said, this is the first time anybody
has actually asked me, you know, without trying to paint
a picture of these guys being all evil. These guys
aren't evil, you know, they was they were over there

(27:46):
done their job in order to protect Yeah, and then
you know, what do you do when you're getting fired
at you just yeah, you try to instinct is to
try to your first instinct is to try to take
off and you know, not try to go into a battle.

(28:06):
But when you're forced into the situation, you know, you
gotta you gotta, you gotta protect, you know. And you
know a lot of people say, oh no, they could
have handled it different ways. You know, you can't say
how you're going to handle it until you're in that situation.
If you got nowhere is to go and you got

(28:27):
bullets coming flying at you, hitting the sides of the cars,
hanging off the ground, taking the radiator out on that
one vehicle, I mean, you know, you can't throw water
bottles at them. Yeah, And so you know you have
to use what you're assigned. And you know that's you know,
it's just like their weapons charge they've had signed, you know,

(28:49):
filed against them. You're assigning those things. You can't go
over there and shoot pelt guns at them. You know
they got their ak's and whatever all. You know they've
managed to snatch up here and there. You know, you're
signed these, Yeah, you're signed deadly weapons. And when you
have to use them, you know, it's it's bad.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
It's part of the job, and it's it's part of
what you are responsible to do.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Respon you're responsible to protect your person next to you.
You're responsible to protect that person that you're signed out
there to oversee, to maintain their safety and get them
back to the you know, the neutral zone or the
right you know, the safe zone.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
But I don't know, Stacy. I appreciate you taking time
to be with me to visit with regards to this situation.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
I thank you for having.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Me as a parent. Obviously, you know there there's that
hurt that your son is in a place and and
we as parents want to be able to do something,
and sometimes, like in this situation, there's not a lot
that you can do.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
A lot. That is the worst feeling that you can
have to have one of your children something going on.
There's nothing that you can do. It's all out of
your control, you know, I say, I say, you know,
a few prayers as as much as I can. You know,

(30:27):
in my mind when I get to thinking about it,
when I get down, and you know, you keep looking
for that answer of you know, when when can I
help my child? And I'm still I'm still waiting. It's
coming though.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
To my listener, what would you ask that they might
be able to do.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
To pray for him? Say a prayer for him. I mean,
if everybody will give them a prayer and a thought,
you know, this could turn around. Prayers. If you've got time,
write them a letter, you know, try to help their families.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
You've got a shirt on that says Raven twenty three.
Is that right, Yes, sir, it's the Raven twenty three
Support team. Support Team.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Now.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Is that a website you.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Can get on Raven twenty three if you're on Facebook,
It says supports that Raven twenty three dot com.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
So, folks, it's support Raven twenty three dot com. Support
Raven twenty three dot com. Take a minute, head over
to the website, look up the information about these young men,
and commit to praying for him.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yes, thank you again, Thank.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
You God, bless you folks. We've got more chosen generation
right after this

Speaker 2 (32:12):
M
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!

Cardiac Cowboys

Cardiac Cowboys

The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.

Crime Junkie

Crime Junkie

Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.

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