August 22, 2024 • 30 mins
Today, we are honored to have with us a remarkable guest, Pastor Gene Ova Tate. Pastor Tate is not only the presiding pastor of Word of Truth Assembly in Detroit, Michigan, but he is also a retired officer from the Toledo Police Department. Pastor Tate’s journey from law enforcement to ministry is a powerful testament to a life dedicated to both justice and spiritual truth. With over three decades of service on the force, Pastor Tate has seen the best and the worst of humanity. Yet, his commitment to serving others didn’t end with his retirement from the police department; it simply took on a new form as he answered the call to lead in the pulpit. In today’s interview, we will delve into Pastor Tate’s experiences as an officer, his transition into ministry, and the lessons he has learned about faith, community, and perseverance along the way. We will also explore how his unique background informs his pastoral work and his vision for the future of his church and community. Join us as we uncover the legacy of a man who has dedicated his life to walking in both truth and service.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to the Voices of Legacy. This is Pastor Carl
here with a special honored guest. I'm kind of a
special treat for me because well it's family. We don't
practice nepotism. But nevertheless, it's great to have my own cousin,
a retired police officer here in the great city of Toledo, Ohio,
Lucas County, none other than over Eugene Tate.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Good morning, Good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Are you very well, sir?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Glad to have you. I'm so glad that you said
yes and you showed up. But we welcome you to
the Voices of Legacy here at WGT. I have a
lot of questions, but I kind of want to get
you to talk.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Okay, I'll try to answer them.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, but tell us about yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Well, the basics are, yes, that's my name, over Eugene Tate.
I not Gene, but I grew up everyone in my
family and friends that's not connected with school. If I
grew up in church, they call me Gene. And if
(01:27):
someone calls me Gene, I knew pretty much where they
know me from, either family or friends. Outside of school.
Of course, they called me over by my first name
in school and When I became guess an adult, I
wanted to go by my legal name, first name over
(01:49):
and so if someone calls me over, then I know, okay,
what area they know me from? Yes, yep, I'm sixty
eight years old. You know what? Yees sixty eight getting Yeah, yeah,
thank yes, thank the Lord.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Don't look like it. Yeah, I can't see it, but
he doesn't look like.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
God is good and so experienced life like anyone else
and I have. I'm a divorcee and a wooderer and
my first wife we divorced my children's mother, and then
(02:33):
my second wife, she is deceased and recently recently yes,
and so I'm here with life experience. I'm a U
currently well, formerly retired sergeant from the Toledo Police Department
and retired from the mpound lot. And now I'm currently
(02:58):
a pastor also in Detroit in Detroit, Michigan Church Word
of Truth Assembly, and been pastoring there maybe about twelve
years now, but I've been I guess associate or co
pastor there for since I guess for twenty four years
(03:21):
under my mother, pastor emeritus olivet Mapsen. So you know,
we have a great legacy of pastors in our family, Yeah,
pretty much, you know of them.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, that's awesome. So in your beginnings when you were
in school, what school did you go to in Toledo?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Well, I went to grade school was Fulton Elementary. It
went to the eighth grade at that time, and then
from Maycumber High School. Your father went to make color
and I followed him there. You did, okay and graduating
seventy four.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
What led you into law enforcement?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
I never really wanted to be a police officer. That
wasn't a goal of mine. You know, some people want
to be a police officer all their life. Actually, our
culture frowns on police officers per se. And I had
a chance to become an Ohio patrolman some years before
(04:29):
I got on the department and was talked out of
it by some members of my family. I worked at
Greyhound for eleven years. Oh wow, yep. And the old
Greyhound went well when they had a union and paid
a good salary.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I think somebody just acquired Greyhound, at least the brand.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, they've gone through a lot of transition in the
Reagan years. It began to change and I can see
the future as far as employment at Greyhound, and so
I started looking around. I put in applications everywhere in
the foundries and different industries and even fire department, police department,
(05:17):
and post office and got on with the police department
in eighty five.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That's awesome. How was your experience with a TVD back
in those days, Well, because you've been.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Retired for some time, like I've been retired since twenty ten,
and I was on the department for twenty five years. Well,
as I said, I was on the department in eighty five,
right in the mix of the rap game, hip hop
era and dope, crack started coming on. Seeing probably in
(05:57):
Toledo maybe right around that time, things were changing. Things
were changing, not for the better. Society, It was going
through some changes, and Crack was an epidemic that changed
the neighborhoods from family oriented to really that's when you
(06:21):
see all the central city neighborhoods began to really plummet. Yeah,
Whereas the area where I grew up, you know, it
was beautiful flowers and green grass everywhere had ownerships rather
than renting. And and then so when crack took hold,
(06:44):
and say, I would say eighty seven, eighty eight through
ninety in the mid nineties, it was just just toward
the neighborhoods up. Families were destroyed because of for your profession. Yeah,
because you're dealing with people that we're either selling cocaine
(07:07):
or crack cocaine or using crack cocaine, and so and again,
gangs became prominent and so it was tough. I don't
know if it's tougher now than it was then. I
don't know if I want to be a police officer.
We have more support though from the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Now these young guys, I pray for them.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
So yeah, I say the respect levels probably the respect
level is.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
The difference now where we as police officers. I never
really feared for my life back then. If someone was
doing something, they might throw a bottle at your car
back then or something like that. But now they are
actually shooting at police, and it's tough now.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
We being in ministry, I'm sure we have a lot
of prayers for a law enforce as well as the
community to have some type of common bond and respect,
and I think that's something that should be promoted. That's
why even in our ministry we did with the Buffalo Soldiers.
I was just mentioning Brother Fred la Fever and Earl
Mack and those fellows to go into the communities and
(08:17):
have classes, especially for the youth, to help them understand
that the police officers do work for us. We pay
their salaries, but we have to have a common bond
in respect. We need to know who they are. They
need to know who you are. If you never talk
to them, there'll be no relationship and more likely, whatever
narrative of you here, that's what you're going to believe,
(08:37):
and that's going to cause you to be inordinately And
I'm get off my soapbox because the floor is yours
the suspect, because they don't know who you are, and
for them to you, they'll be the enemy. And you
don't know who they are.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Well, it's hard. I think they've we've been to the
city of Toledo, I should say. Actually, I was one
of the first officers that was involved in community policing
that took really took place, maybe started to take place.
I could remember some of the the command's names back
(09:16):
then because they were really pioneers as far as trying
to do community policing. But community policing is tough because
you I may shake your hand at school and they
may have to arrest your parents, yeah that night or uncle. Yeah,
(09:36):
you know. But back then there was more families than
there are now. When I mean by families, I'm talking
about traditional mother father kids, and there's you know, there's
families or people that live in the same homes now
but not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Could be grand tradition and grandchild raising them as a.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Kid, or it could be you know, gender yeah, flexing, yeah,
you know, and sometimes children are raised by their oldest
brother or oldest sister or oldest aunt, yeah whatever. You know.
It's a lot different now than it was in We
(10:18):
have quote quote unquote crack babies. We used to use
that term. That's a bad sounding term, but alcohol syndrome.
Children now are adults, you know, and so that creates
the problems social problems within itself. When I was a
(10:39):
police officer, we had and the still active, the African
American Patrolming League. It used to be called the Afro
American Patrolman League, and it was active in the neighborhoods
and in we adopted Fulton Schools. As I mentioned before,
as a school I went to, we adopted Fulton School
and to effect, community policing, trying to put on programs
(11:03):
and they're doing a good job now flow warmly. She's retired,
but she did a great job of community policing at
Woodward High School. They adopted Woodward's High School and trying
to affect young people. You'd be surprised the young people
that the things they have to go through the police
(11:27):
in their house sometime at three o'clock in the morning,
and then they get up to go to school and
then so now they may be a problem for the
teacher or whatever, and some of them haven't eaten. You know.
It's a lot of a whole lot of social programs.
And then the police become psychiatrists and you know, psychologists
(11:54):
and different things, and then along with them dealing with
their own personal problem.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Seems as though your experience as a police officer kind
of transitioned you right into ministry. And were you a
police officer at the same time as you were in ministry.
It seems like that kind of overlaps a little bit
in the timeline.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah, it overlaps, I mean, but in the nineties I
was you know, you know, I was quote unquote out
of the church.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I was raised. You know how we were were raised in.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
The church and Sunday school and church and all day,
all day. That was our culture and we were we
weren't necessarily Mormons or.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So, I don't know, we were close makeup.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah, what's the group that that's in Pennsylvania Amish? Amish?
We weren't Amish.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, I don't know. All I can said for those
that don't understand what we're laughing about. We believe it
something called holiness and it was no joke.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, well we were and more so than than just holdings,
we were Pentecostal Apple style. Uh. They're really conservative, extremely
extremely conservative lifestyle. They let us, you know, and.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
So we went through that.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And so it sounds like you had a flash.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
We grew up in that, and I guess I left
for a while. But I thank God, you know, for
the foundation, getting a great foundation, even with dealing with people,
you know, even though I came from a dealing even
dealing with a very toxic environment of folks. They come
(13:52):
from toxic areas and because of toxicity, very angry.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
It's infectious.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
It's infectiously, yes, and hopelessness still having in me a
love for people, and so uh that didn't mean I
didn't have to do my job. But I've tried my
(14:25):
very best to respect people, you know. And uh, anyway,
coming back, the Lord.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Saved me.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Uh and that never leaves. I just had to come
to myself to who I was, you know, as a
son and Brown ninety nine, two thousand and so I've
been really involved since then, and you know, taking on
pastorship after a while, moving to well, I've still lived
in Toledo, but churches in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
And so what whatever Toledo was, Detroit is about.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Ten times times to the extreme to the left of that.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I took it.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
They wear black minks here and they were white minks
in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
I don't know, but this with hats right, you know,
how bad whatever quote unquote crips and bloods were supposedly here,
they was in true.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Effect in Detroit.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Whatever the neighborhoods were like here in Toledo, Oh yeah,
they're worse than Detroit. You know, Detroit's making a rebound
because you know, big city Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, all those
big cities just ravished by crack. Yeah, you know, like
the rural areas being ravished by this.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Fitting fitting of yeah, yeah, yeah, that's I don't say awesome,
But the story is. The story is because it seems
as though you came from a particular type of upbringing,
kind of escape from that upbringing, which we have a
similar testimony in that, and then came right back to
it with more wisdom, more knowledge and understanding. So how
(16:12):
has that affected what you do now?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Well, what I do now.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
It gives me.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Allows me to have more grace and be less judgmental
of people. I try my best not to judge people.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
We are judge.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
We are judgmental beings, you know. That's why we have
a word called prejudice. Prejudge people based on our understanding
and what we've heard. So we prejudge, and then you know,
we're quick to see and judge, and so I try
(16:56):
not to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Benefit of the doubt is yeah, I try. That's that's
the word which is really love, it's empathy.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Yeah, yeah, try to have not being and balance that
not with being naive exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Well, we want to be a good steward because what
I want to live as long as.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
You can't be naive.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
You had to understand and well, to answer your question,
that's why going through that experience, I think has given
me a good basis, a good foundation as to understand people.
You know, the Bible not to preach, but the Bible
should be watched, yeah, as well as pray and so watch,
(17:40):
just observe, you.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Know, and it gives you what to pray for. Yes, well,
I don't know if I have any other questions, but
I will say this because it was on my mind
while you were talking. I remember as a child, your grandmother,
my great grandmother, was my babysitter for a little bit.
And I remember my uncles and not so much my aunties,
(18:06):
but mostly my uncles and cousins like yourself come to
Grandma Sherman's house or my great grandmother who's going on Lousena.
And I enjoyed just seeing because I was a little
kid seeing you guys in your uniforms, you being police officer,
and my other two cousins being in the fire department
and so as a child, and we really looked up
(18:26):
to you guys because you know, you play with your toys,
but you got constantly actually saw firemen.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah and police officers.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, which was good for you.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
I think if we African American children need to see models.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah, we had a unique family for what you're saying
right now, as far as our elders.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Especially you did. I didn't see any of that my
generation except for your father being an entrepreneur and your
grandfather and grandmother who were my uncles, and they were entrepreneurs,
and so I was able to see that. But when
(19:13):
I was moving into the neighborhood where I lived at
over there by Scott High School, still good neighborhood, but
the professionals were beginning to move out, and so I
didn't get to see the doctors and the lawyers in
our neighborhood because they had begun to leave that particular
the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
That's how my father brought so many tenements over there.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Right, they're cheap, right, and so but it's good to
go back to what you're saying that the young African
Americans and yes, young people period can see somebody that
that they can relate to and aspire to be. As
I said, I never aspired to be a police officer
because to me, the popo.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You know, we have a certain reputation.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, you know. And again when I wanted to be
a when I was approached by a recruiter from the
higher patrol State troopers. State troopers I was approached to be.
I was when I turned twenty one. They came to
my house and you know, wanted to recruit me. And
when I told some of my relative friends uncles, Oh,
(20:24):
you don't want to be there. How can you be
a police officer and be saved?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Because police are so ruthless.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
And oh my goodness, you know that might you can't
be a christ following a cop at the same time.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Because you know, they do some serious damage to And
I'm gonna tell you, police got a bad reputation in
the African American UH neighborhood and and that's incoming upon
the police to change, not the people.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And it's back to the judgment as well, because even culturally,
people have presumptions of who people are based on simply
what you look like, and that can be based on
some truth, but is completely in error.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well that's a heavy breath, was it, Yes?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
It was.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
They're good police exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Sometimes police have to be careful not to pass judgment
on people.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
We are to Our job is to protect and serve,
not to judge, judge and be judge and jury and
sometimes police because I've been involved in foot chases. I
was involved in a lot of foot chaser when I
was young.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
As I got.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Older, I let the radio do the chasing, as they say,
you know. But when I was young, I jumped fences
and run through backyards dodge dogs. But at the end
of the chase, See, the running is the protecting and
the servance. Okay, at the end of the chase. Sometimes
(22:06):
police want to meet out a little justice, you know,
And you have to understand that's not your job. Your
job is to apprehend. Now, if they resist, then the
Bible or not the Bible, the law. The law allows
you to overcome their resistance. And and that's it, not
(22:31):
to meet out justice, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
But that happens.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And and and we as a society for years have
winked and nodded at that account, yeah, and sort of
turned our head. And so we have George Floyd, and
you have before that, years before that, you have Rodney King.
And those are things that we know about. Quick story,
(22:59):
and and and you could take it one way. Well,
the other is, my father told me when he was
a young man. I was born, he was a young man,
and he was hanging out on the weekend anyways. On it,
he got in some kind of doing something he had
no business doing, I guess, and the police apprehended him,
(23:23):
and he said, can you let me go? Because so
and so on and so I got to be the
work in the morning, and and they these two office
white officers said okay, and they hit him in the
stomach and let him go.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Now he appreciated that because he knew if he had
went to jail.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
This was on a Friday night.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
He's not seeing anything until Monday.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
He's not seeing anything till Monday. Right.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
My mother would have been angry at him right now. Now,
this is from a man that was that was a
young man in the forties and the fifties right going
into the sixties. So that has always been a balance,
always been, you know, a balance with the community and
(24:15):
the police.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Police used to let.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Drunk drivers go. They don't anymore because of policy and procedures,
but they used to let drunk drivers go, throw the
keys in the grass and tell them to go home. Okay,
that might be okay for that instant, but now, but
then we had a rise in drunk drivings and the
seriesns of drunk driving now they turned the corner and
(24:39):
they arrest durant drivers. All right, So police and community
has always have had a love hate I'm talking about
the African American community has always had a love hate
back when crack came all the elderly. This is what
young people don't understand. They say, well, Joe Biden and
(25:02):
he passed the crime bill back in the nineties. They
these young people don't understand that. My grandmama loved Joe
Biden and Clinton for passing those laws because crack had
taken over the neighborhoods and they wanted that and the
police couldn't do anything if this guy who just got
(25:26):
out of jail was back on the street selling crack.
So the crime bill was a three striking, you're out
type of situation. So the elderly black folks loved, loved
the police for that. But then they come to find out, hey,
they arrested my grandson, right, And so I don't know,
(25:48):
I don't mean to dominate that, but there's a loving
there was all. There's always be a love hate relationship
and the community police and hopefully balances that out.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yes, And we have to, especially as pastors, I think
because the church traditionally, going back to what you were
saying back in the day, used to be the cornerstone
of the community, even for those they didn't even go
to church, that that was a place that was safe.
It's a place where you had community meetings outside of
just religious activities. We need to kind of take back
(26:21):
that type of responsibility. And again back to what we're
doing with.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Your uncle Robert Sherman was very involved. Yes, in the community.
What was that church on Putnam?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Putnam?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yeah, Putnam.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
The stone is still there, actually, yeah, it's still there.
As we were drawing to the end, I think we
could probably go on another half of an hour to
our time together. Today, the question would be what do
you think your legacy currently is and what would you
like for.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
It to be. Well, I'm just an average guy. What'
you called average? Joe? I tried. You know, I've made
mistakes in my life then and always as a Christian,
we fall down, but we get up. Yes, and I
(27:13):
thank God for his forgiveness and his grace, because otherwise
I would have been disqualified. Yeah, you know, and I
thank God. I'd say this in church and even in
leading people because people are broken for so many reasons,
so many reasons. There's none perfect, none are good. But
(27:37):
the Father and other than by his grace and mercy
are we saved and his Holy Spirit, if we let.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
It will lead us.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
And if we don't let us, let it lead us,
it'll heal us. And so my legacy, I'm a good
prime example of that. I just if I can say,
I just want to go back with the Lord when
he comes. Yeah, I'll be in the grave or I
be left, you know, standing when he come. I want
(28:11):
that's that's my hope, my legacy to my children, I
want to give them an example of a man that
can that have made mistakes, haven't made like real bad
serious mistakes. They haven't gone to prison or anything. I
never did drugs, thank God. I drank alcohol, but I
never uh to any extreme. But I thank God for
(28:35):
saving me, changing me over the course of time, uh,
and forgiven me. I can say, I'm a forgiving man.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
That's awesome. Well, I want to thank you for joining
us for the voices of legacy today. We hope that
your testimony is going to be a blessed We know
that it will be to those that hear it. Thank
(29:10):
you for listening. To the Voices of Legacy. This is
your friend, Pastor Krol Mitchell, the third your hosts of
this program. We want you to go to w GTE
dot org slash legacy to like, share, subscribe, and hear
all of our past podcast and our future podcast. Be
a friend and join with us in the Voices of Legacy,
(29:33):
where you're writing your own legacy every day that you
w have a blessed.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
WGT voices around us. WGT supported in part by the
American Rescue Plan Act funds allocated by the City of
Toledo and the Lucas County Commissioners and administered by the
Arts Commission
Welcome to the Voices of Legacy. This is Pastor Carl
here with a special honored guest. I'm kind of a
special treat for me because well it's family. We don't
practice nepotism. But nevertheless, it's great to have my own cousin,
a retired police officer here in the great city of Toledo, Ohio,
Lucas County, none other than over Eugene Tate.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Good morning, Good morning.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Are you very well, sir?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Glad to have you. I'm so glad that you said
yes and you showed up. But we welcome you to
the Voices of Legacy here at WGT. I have a
lot of questions, but I kind of want to get
you to talk.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Okay, I'll try to answer them.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah, but tell us about yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Well, the basics are, yes, that's my name, over Eugene Tate.
I not Gene, but I grew up everyone in my
family and friends that's not connected with school. If I
grew up in church, they call me Gene. And if
(01:27):
someone calls me Gene, I knew pretty much where they
know me from, either family or friends. Outside of school.
Of course, they called me over by my first name
in school and When I became guess an adult, I
wanted to go by my legal name, first name over
(01:49):
and so if someone calls me over, then I know, okay,
what area they know me from? Yes, yep, I'm sixty
eight years old. You know what? Yees sixty eight getting Yeah, yeah,
thank yes, thank the Lord.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Don't look like it. Yeah, I can't see it, but
he doesn't look like.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
God is good and so experienced life like anyone else
and I have. I'm a divorcee and a wooderer and
my first wife we divorced my children's mother, and then
(02:33):
my second wife, she is deceased and recently recently yes,
and so I'm here with life experience. I'm a U
currently well, formerly retired sergeant from the Toledo Police Department
and retired from the mpound lot. And now I'm currently
(02:58):
a pastor also in Detroit in Detroit, Michigan Church Word
of Truth Assembly, and been pastoring there maybe about twelve
years now, but I've been I guess associate or co
pastor there for since I guess for twenty four years
(03:21):
under my mother, pastor emeritus olivet Mapsen. So you know,
we have a great legacy of pastors in our family, Yeah,
pretty much, you know of them.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, that's awesome. So in your beginnings when you were
in school, what school did you go to in Toledo?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Well, I went to grade school was Fulton Elementary. It
went to the eighth grade at that time, and then
from Maycumber High School. Your father went to make color
and I followed him there. You did, okay and graduating
seventy four.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
What led you into law enforcement?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
I never really wanted to be a police officer. That
wasn't a goal of mine. You know, some people want
to be a police officer all their life. Actually, our
culture frowns on police officers per se. And I had
a chance to become an Ohio patrolman some years before
(04:29):
I got on the department and was talked out of
it by some members of my family. I worked at
Greyhound for eleven years. Oh wow, yep. And the old
Greyhound went well when they had a union and paid
a good salary.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I think somebody just acquired Greyhound, at least the brand.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, they've gone through a lot of transition in the
Reagan years. It began to change and I can see
the future as far as employment at Greyhound, and so
I started looking around. I put in applications everywhere in
the foundries and different industries and even fire department, police department,
(05:17):
and post office and got on with the police department
in eighty five.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That's awesome. How was your experience with a TVD back
in those days, Well, because you've been.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Retired for some time, like I've been retired since twenty ten,
and I was on the department for twenty five years. Well,
as I said, I was on the department in eighty five,
right in the mix of the rap game, hip hop
era and dope, crack started coming on. Seeing probably in
(05:57):
Toledo maybe right around that time, things were changing. Things
were changing, not for the better. Society, It was going
through some changes, and Crack was an epidemic that changed
the neighborhoods from family oriented to really that's when you
(06:21):
see all the central city neighborhoods began to really plummet. Yeah,
Whereas the area where I grew up, you know, it
was beautiful flowers and green grass everywhere had ownerships rather
than renting. And and then so when crack took hold,
(06:44):
and say, I would say eighty seven, eighty eight through
ninety in the mid nineties, it was just just toward
the neighborhoods up. Families were destroyed because of for your profession. Yeah,
because you're dealing with people that we're either selling cocaine
(07:07):
or crack cocaine or using crack cocaine, and so and again,
gangs became prominent and so it was tough. I don't
know if it's tougher now than it was then. I
don't know if I want to be a police officer.
We have more support though from the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Now these young guys, I pray for them.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
So yeah, I say the respect levels probably the respect
level is.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
The difference now where we as police officers. I never
really feared for my life back then. If someone was
doing something, they might throw a bottle at your car
back then or something like that. But now they are
actually shooting at police, and it's tough now.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
We being in ministry, I'm sure we have a lot
of prayers for a law enforce as well as the
community to have some type of common bond and respect,
and I think that's something that should be promoted. That's
why even in our ministry we did with the Buffalo Soldiers.
I was just mentioning Brother Fred la Fever and Earl
Mack and those fellows to go into the communities and
(08:17):
have classes, especially for the youth, to help them understand
that the police officers do work for us. We pay
their salaries, but we have to have a common bond
in respect. We need to know who they are. They
need to know who you are. If you never talk
to them, there'll be no relationship and more likely, whatever
narrative of you here, that's what you're going to believe,
(08:37):
and that's going to cause you to be inordinately And
I'm get off my soapbox because the floor is yours
the suspect, because they don't know who you are, and
for them to you, they'll be the enemy. And you
don't know who they are.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Well, it's hard. I think they've we've been to the
city of Toledo, I should say. Actually, I was one
of the first officers that was involved in community policing
that took really took place, maybe started to take place.
I could remember some of the the command's names back
(09:16):
then because they were really pioneers as far as trying
to do community policing. But community policing is tough because
you I may shake your hand at school and they
may have to arrest your parents, yeah that night or uncle. Yeah,
(09:36):
you know. But back then there was more families than
there are now. When I mean by families, I'm talking
about traditional mother father kids, and there's you know, there's
families or people that live in the same homes now
but not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Could be grand tradition and grandchild raising them as a.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Kid, or it could be you know, gender yeah, flexing, yeah,
you know, and sometimes children are raised by their oldest
brother or oldest sister or oldest aunt, yeah whatever. You know.
It's a lot different now than it was in We
(10:18):
have quote quote unquote crack babies. We used to use
that term. That's a bad sounding term, but alcohol syndrome.
Children now are adults, you know, and so that creates
the problems social problems within itself. When I was a
(10:39):
police officer, we had and the still active, the African
American Patrolming League. It used to be called the Afro
American Patrolman League, and it was active in the neighborhoods
and in we adopted Fulton Schools. As I mentioned before,
as a school I went to, we adopted Fulton School
and to effect, community policing, trying to put on programs
(11:03):
and they're doing a good job now flow warmly. She's retired,
but she did a great job of community policing at
Woodward High School. They adopted Woodward's High School and trying
to affect young people. You'd be surprised the young people
that the things they have to go through the police
(11:27):
in their house sometime at three o'clock in the morning,
and then they get up to go to school and
then so now they may be a problem for the
teacher or whatever, and some of them haven't eaten. You know.
It's a lot of a whole lot of social programs.
And then the police become psychiatrists and you know, psychologists
(11:54):
and different things, and then along with them dealing with
their own personal problem.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Seems as though your experience as a police officer kind
of transitioned you right into ministry. And were you a
police officer at the same time as you were in ministry.
It seems like that kind of overlaps a little bit
in the timeline.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah, it overlaps, I mean, but in the nineties I
was you know, you know, I was quote unquote out
of the church.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I was raised. You know how we were were raised in.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
The church and Sunday school and church and all day,
all day. That was our culture and we were we
weren't necessarily Mormons or.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So, I don't know, we were close makeup.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah, what's the group that that's in Pennsylvania Amish? Amish?
We weren't Amish.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, I don't know. All I can said for those
that don't understand what we're laughing about. We believe it
something called holiness and it was no joke.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, well we were and more so than than just holdings,
we were Pentecostal Apple style. Uh. They're really conservative, extremely
extremely conservative lifestyle. They let us, you know, and.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
So we went through that.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And so it sounds like you had a flash.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
We grew up in that, and I guess I left
for a while. But I thank God, you know, for
the foundation, getting a great foundation, even with dealing with people,
you know, even though I came from a dealing even
dealing with a very toxic environment of folks. They come
(13:52):
from toxic areas and because of toxicity, very angry.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
It's infectious.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
It's infectiously, yes, and hopelessness still having in me a
love for people, and so uh that didn't mean I
didn't have to do my job. But I've tried my
(14:25):
very best to respect people, you know. And uh, anyway,
coming back, the Lord.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Saved me.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Uh and that never leaves. I just had to come
to myself to who I was, you know, as a
son and Brown ninety nine, two thousand and so I've
been really involved since then, and you know, taking on
pastorship after a while, moving to well, I've still lived
in Toledo, but churches in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
And so what whatever Toledo was, Detroit is about.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Ten times times to the extreme to the left of that.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I took it.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
They wear black minks here and they were white minks
in Detroit.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
I don't know, but this with hats right, you know,
how bad whatever quote unquote crips and bloods were supposedly here,
they was in true.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Effect in Detroit.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Whatever the neighborhoods were like here in Toledo, Oh yeah,
they're worse than Detroit. You know, Detroit's making a rebound
because you know, big city Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, all those
big cities just ravished by crack. Yeah, you know, like
the rural areas being ravished by this.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Fitting fitting of yeah, yeah, yeah, that's I don't say awesome,
But the story is. The story is because it seems
as though you came from a particular type of upbringing,
kind of escape from that upbringing, which we have a
similar testimony in that, and then came right back to
it with more wisdom, more knowledge and understanding. So how
(16:12):
has that affected what you do now?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
Well, what I do now.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
It gives me.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Allows me to have more grace and be less judgmental
of people. I try my best not to judge people.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
We are judge.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
We are judgmental beings, you know. That's why we have
a word called prejudice. Prejudge people based on our understanding
and what we've heard. So we prejudge, and then you know,
we're quick to see and judge, and so I try
(16:56):
not to do that.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Benefit of the doubt is yeah, I try. That's that's
the word which is really love, it's empathy.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Yeah, yeah, try to have not being and balance that
not with being naive exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Well, we want to be a good steward because what
I want to live as long as.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
You can't be naive.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
You had to understand and well, to answer your question,
that's why going through that experience, I think has given
me a good basis, a good foundation as to understand people.
You know, the Bible not to preach, but the Bible
should be watched, yeah, as well as pray and so watch,
(17:40):
just observe, you.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Know, and it gives you what to pray for. Yes, well,
I don't know if I have any other questions, but
I will say this because it was on my mind
while you were talking. I remember as a child, your grandmother,
my great grandmother, was my babysitter for a little bit.
And I remember my uncles and not so much my aunties,
(18:06):
but mostly my uncles and cousins like yourself come to
Grandma Sherman's house or my great grandmother who's going on Lousena.
And I enjoyed just seeing because I was a little
kid seeing you guys in your uniforms, you being police officer,
and my other two cousins being in the fire department
and so as a child, and we really looked up
(18:26):
to you guys because you know, you play with your toys,
but you got constantly actually saw firemen.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah and police officers.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, which was good for you.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
I think if we African American children need to see models.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah, we had a unique family for what you're saying
right now, as far as our elders.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Especially you did. I didn't see any of that my
generation except for your father being an entrepreneur and your
grandfather and grandmother who were my uncles, and they were entrepreneurs,
and so I was able to see that. But when
(19:13):
I was moving into the neighborhood where I lived at
over there by Scott High School, still good neighborhood, but
the professionals were beginning to move out, and so I
didn't get to see the doctors and the lawyers in
our neighborhood because they had begun to leave that particular
the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
That's how my father brought so many tenements over there.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Right, they're cheap, right, and so but it's good to
go back to what you're saying that the young African
Americans and yes, young people period can see somebody that
that they can relate to and aspire to be. As
I said, I never aspired to be a police officer
because to me, the popo.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You know, we have a certain reputation.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, you know. And again when I wanted to be
a when I was approached by a recruiter from the
higher patrol State troopers. State troopers I was approached to be.
I was when I turned twenty one. They came to
my house and you know, wanted to recruit me. And
when I told some of my relative friends uncles, Oh,
(20:24):
you don't want to be there. How can you be
a police officer and be saved?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Because police are so ruthless.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
And oh my goodness, you know that might you can't
be a christ following a cop at the same time.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Because you know, they do some serious damage to And
I'm gonna tell you, police got a bad reputation in
the African American UH neighborhood and and that's incoming upon
the police to change, not the people.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And it's back to the judgment as well, because even culturally,
people have presumptions of who people are based on simply
what you look like, and that can be based on
some truth, but is completely in error.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well that's a heavy breath, was it, Yes?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
It was.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
They're good police exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Sometimes police have to be careful not to pass judgment
on people.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
We are to Our job is to protect and serve,
not to judge, judge and be judge and jury and
sometimes police because I've been involved in foot chases. I
was involved in a lot of foot chaser when I
was young.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
As I got.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Older, I let the radio do the chasing, as they say,
you know. But when I was young, I jumped fences
and run through backyards dodge dogs. But at the end
of the chase, See, the running is the protecting and
the servance. Okay, at the end of the chase. Sometimes
(22:06):
police want to meet out a little justice, you know,
And you have to understand that's not your job. Your
job is to apprehend. Now, if they resist, then the
Bible or not the Bible, the law. The law allows
you to overcome their resistance. And and that's it, not
(22:31):
to meet out justice, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
But that happens.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
And and and we as a society for years have
winked and nodded at that account, yeah, and sort of
turned our head. And so we have George Floyd, and
you have before that, years before that, you have Rodney King.
And those are things that we know about. Quick story,
(22:59):
and and and you could take it one way. Well,
the other is, my father told me when he was
a young man. I was born, he was a young man,
and he was hanging out on the weekend anyways. On it,
he got in some kind of doing something he had
no business doing, I guess, and the police apprehended him,
(23:23):
and he said, can you let me go? Because so
and so on and so I got to be the
work in the morning, and and they these two office
white officers said okay, and they hit him in the
stomach and let him go.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Now he appreciated that because he knew if he had
went to jail.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
This was on a Friday night.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
He's not seeing anything until Monday.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
He's not seeing anything till Monday. Right.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
My mother would have been angry at him right now. Now,
this is from a man that was that was a
young man in the forties and the fifties right going
into the sixties. So that has always been a balance,
always been, you know, a balance with the community and
(24:15):
the police.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Police used to let.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Drunk drivers go. They don't anymore because of policy and procedures,
but they used to let drunk drivers go, throw the
keys in the grass and tell them to go home. Okay,
that might be okay for that instant, but now, but
then we had a rise in drunk drivings and the
seriesns of drunk driving now they turned the corner and
(24:39):
they arrest durant drivers. All right, So police and community
has always have had a love hate I'm talking about
the African American community has always had a love hate
back when crack came all the elderly. This is what
young people don't understand. They say, well, Joe Biden and
(25:02):
he passed the crime bill back in the nineties. They
these young people don't understand that. My grandmama loved Joe
Biden and Clinton for passing those laws because crack had
taken over the neighborhoods and they wanted that and the
police couldn't do anything if this guy who just got
(25:26):
out of jail was back on the street selling crack.
So the crime bill was a three striking, you're out
type of situation. So the elderly black folks loved, loved
the police for that. But then they come to find out, hey,
they arrested my grandson, right, And so I don't know,
(25:48):
I don't mean to dominate that, but there's a loving
there was all. There's always be a love hate relationship
and the community police and hopefully balances that out.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yes, And we have to, especially as pastors, I think
because the church traditionally, going back to what you were
saying back in the day, used to be the cornerstone
of the community, even for those they didn't even go
to church, that that was a place that was safe.
It's a place where you had community meetings outside of
just religious activities. We need to kind of take back
(26:21):
that type of responsibility. And again back to what we're
doing with.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Your uncle Robert Sherman was very involved. Yes, in the community.
What was that church on Putnam?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Putnam?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yeah, Putnam.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
The stone is still there, actually, yeah, it's still there.
As we were drawing to the end, I think we
could probably go on another half of an hour to
our time together. Today, the question would be what do
you think your legacy currently is and what would you
like for.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
It to be. Well, I'm just an average guy. What'
you called average? Joe? I tried. You know, I've made
mistakes in my life then and always as a Christian,
we fall down, but we get up. Yes, and I
(27:13):
thank God for his forgiveness and his grace, because otherwise
I would have been disqualified. Yeah, you know, and I
thank God. I'd say this in church and even in
leading people because people are broken for so many reasons,
so many reasons. There's none perfect, none are good. But
(27:37):
the Father and other than by his grace and mercy
are we saved and his Holy Spirit, if we let.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
It will lead us.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
And if we don't let us, let it lead us,
it'll heal us. And so my legacy, I'm a good
prime example of that. I just if I can say,
I just want to go back with the Lord when
he comes. Yeah, I'll be in the grave or I
be left, you know, standing when he come. I want
(28:11):
that's that's my hope, my legacy to my children, I
want to give them an example of a man that
can that have made mistakes, haven't made like real bad
serious mistakes. They haven't gone to prison or anything. I
never did drugs, thank God. I drank alcohol, but I
never uh to any extreme. But I thank God for
(28:35):
saving me, changing me over the course of time, uh,
and forgiven me. I can say, I'm a forgiving man.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
That's awesome. Well, I want to thank you for joining
us for the voices of legacy today. We hope that
your testimony is going to be a blessed We know
that it will be to those that hear it. Thank
(29:10):
you for listening. To the Voices of Legacy. This is
your friend, Pastor Krol Mitchell, the third your hosts of
this program. We want you to go to w GTE
dot org slash legacy to like, share, subscribe, and hear
all of our past podcast and our future podcast. Be
a friend and join with us in the Voices of Legacy,
(29:33):
where you're writing your own legacy every day that you
w have a blessed.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
WGT voices around us. WGT supported in part by the
American Rescue Plan Act funds allocated by the City of
Toledo and the Lucas County Commissioners and administered by the
Arts Commission
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