November 22, 2024 • 63 mins
Joining me to discuss the strange phenomena of cattle mutilations is longtime investigator and author of Stalking The Dead, Christopher O'Brien. After decades of research, O'Brien is less inclined to believe that cattle mutilations are caused by supposed extraterrestrial beings. Although, he does sometimes see a correlation between UFOs and mutilation cases. He has also tracked a possible pattern between the phenomena and nuclear radiation events.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hey, welcome back everyone to coffee and UFO's two of
my favorite things. I have a fantastic guest tonight, Christopher
oh Brian. We'll talk to Christopher in just a moment,
but I'll say this, if you love, the most mysterious
side to the UFO phenomena here on Earth, in my mind,
(00:41):
is definitely the cattle mutilation phenomena, because there is a
question is it even related to UFOs, is it something
of its own poweranormal state, or is it a government conspiracy.
There's so much tied to cattle mutilations, so I'm really
excited to talk to Christopher in just a moment. As
a friendly reminder, this pat podcast and the Mystic Lounge
(01:02):
podcast is rebroadcast on the Unexed network every Thursday eleven
pm Pacific time, two am Eastern Time on Fridays, and
you can listen to this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.
So if you're a fan, if you can rate a
comment down below, share all that really helps the channel grow,
(01:25):
and it's growing thanks to you guys, so I really
appreciate that. Now I'm going to bring on our esteemed guest,
Christopher O'Brien.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Hey, how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm doing good.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
It's been a long time and since then, you know,
there have been a number of cases, cattle mutilation cases,
and you were also recently on the Netflix Unsolved Mystery series.
They did an episode on mostly the Oregon cases out
on the West there. Very briefly for anyone who is
(01:59):
not familiar with Christopher O'Brien, he is a fantastic researcher.
He's been at this for a long time and he's
one of the most prolific authors and researchers and presenters
on the cattle mutilation mystery. But you know, other than
his work Stalking the Herd, he has authored multiple other books,
(02:20):
including Cryptozoology UFO. So Christopher is all over the map,
and in a positive way, because the paranormal and UFOs
are all over the map. And I love that we
have you because there is something synergistic about all these
(02:42):
sometimes seemingly disparate phenomenon. So, Christopher, if you can give
us a little bit of an introduction to yourself and
how you got involved.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
In all this.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well, I'm an experiencer. I had up close and personal
encounter when I was seven, probably the most one of
the most important events of my life left no doubt
in my mind. I'm not alone that there's non human
entities that I think coexists along with us. They're probably
(03:17):
more terrestrial than we are, in my opinion. I don't
particularly think that we're dealing with galactic citizens or citizens
that are coming from other star systems. I think they've
been here probably longer than we have, and we may
be the aliens. Okay, yeah, well it's it's not my theory,
(03:41):
it's it's been proposed for quite a while. But I
do I do before we before we go on, I
want to just commend move on or I know your
your state section director. I think from the field investigator,
the field investigator. Yeah, well, I've been working with Ron James,
(04:02):
who's the media coordinator for the International Organization, and I've
been working with him off and on for twenty years,
and and we live in exciting times. I made bets
with people over the years that there's never going to
be the disclosure with a small or big D in
my lifetime, and I'm glad of being proven wrong. And
(04:25):
Lupon's had had a major role, I think in all
this now with a lobbying firm in d C and briefing, yeah,
and briefing all the Congress people and helping draft legislation
and stuff. That's you know, pinch me. I never thought
i'd see it is.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Weird, it is. It's a funny thing.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I went to the you know, small rally in Manhattan
that side of Senator Schumer's office, and it was just
kind of surreal to see that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You know, there wasn't many of us, maybe thirty, but
it was surreal.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
To see like real boots on the ground activism for
transparency built on not a not a not a wispy cloud,
but built on on strong ground. Because the politicians themselves,
the government representatives of the people, are taking it seriously
(05:26):
so well.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
It's also even even the Congress people are saying, this
is the most bipartisan effort currently going on in Congress
right now. The only it's one of the only things
that they can all agree on is that we're tired
of the secrecy. We're tired of you know, being fed
definitely being lied to, and and uh, you know, we're
(05:49):
mad as hell. We're not gonna take it anymore. I
just love the I love the the fact that we
can all work together as a team. I'm a team player.
But anyway, be that as it may, I just wanted
to before we we went much further, I wanted to
to mention how exciting it is. And you know, somebody
(06:12):
pinched me, it's just bizarre that we we're seeing that
they were living in these in these times. So anyway,
my whole thing is I I've always known since I
was seven that we were not alone. The entities that
I encountered and followed me around my neighborhood at three
in the morning did not try to communicate with me.
(06:35):
I didn't see any craft. They they were impossibly skinny.
I called them stick men. They had glittering the ones
that were about two feet a half as tall, you know,
they were about three and a half four feet tall.
The ones are about two feet and they had glittering
light going up and down, and it threw off enough
(06:56):
ambient light where I was able to see the figures
that were impossibly skinny. You know. Their legs were like
the like my thumb, their arms were like my my tomb. Yeah,
it's h something you don't forget.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
No, I can't imagine that there's so many people who
have similar stories. Not an exact description, but similar of
all ages, not just kids.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
But earlier this week we did an episode on Corey
Good and David Wilcock and sort of the Corey Good
fab fabricating you know, this whole mythology. Yeah, so like
but that that brings me to you know how you
know someone's looking from the outside end right, You just
shared your story. Other people have shared their their stories.
(07:48):
But then someone like Corey Good comes out and shares
a story. How do how do you know to to
you know, separate the wheat from the cheft. You know,
how would you recommend people from the outside coming in
approach this?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
It's it's very difficult to ascertain veracity and whether a
person is if they're if they're really good at line,
It's going to be impossible to really determine the level
of veracity. Being a longtime field investigator thirty years and
(08:22):
having interview thousands of people, I can get a pretty
good sense of somebody. How you look for for nonverbal clues.
I've studied you know, NLP and various investigative techniques for
observing witnesses and looking at body language, reading inflection and voices,
(08:47):
looking at at eye movement, you know, that sort of thing.
So I'm sort of trained and have a lot of
experience that determining whether a person is concabulating maybe making
making a story even more exciting you. You often look
for building block uh scenarios where somebody all of a
(09:10):
sudden said, oh, I remember something else, and then you know,
years later, they'll come out with a new book that
has the new information in it. And that's a pretty
good uh signal that it's uh, it's writing on the
coattails of their own of their own U confabulation. Uh.
So it's it's not easy. It's it's difficult. But having
(09:34):
said that, it is it is possible two to determine.
But for the average person, it's it's pretty difficult.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So if you are approaching this subject as a nuts
and bolts person, is that a safe avenue to take?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I mean, can you can? You can? Can you continue.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
To investigate UFOs or cattle mutilations within nuts and bolts?
You know, materialistic focus?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah? Yeah, And that's I'm a you know, I'm a
a pretty pretty jaded tough nut to crack. I've been
at this for over thirty years, investigated over two hundred
cat case cases you know personally and research thousands more,
(10:35):
and you know you do see sign posts, you do
see commonalities, You see trends, you see patterns. You know
the type of organs that are taken, the condition of
the animal. You know, the attendant phenomena or lack of
phenomena around a particular case or or a group of
(10:56):
grouping of cases. These are all things kind of fact
or into your into your thinking and into your conclusions
that you might draw what few conclusions you can draw.
But it's it's important to always keep a kind of
a grounded scientific sort of bent to your to your efforts.
(11:20):
I think everything should spring from there. I do rely
on my intuition. I also rely on my brother's dog,
who would be the first one out of the car
when we got to a case. UH. Generally I would
use my biosensor, if you will, to UH, to go
(11:40):
out and sniff around and show me where the coyotes
had had been, if there were any, Because Cato would
instantly go to any bush that a coyote peede on
to Marcus territory. He would mark his territory there as well,
so that that would instantly give me UH you know,
before I even got close to the animal, would show
(12:01):
me where the coyotes were, and I'd be able to
to follow their tracks into the site, see where they went,
how close they got to the animal. There's a lot
of deductive sort of Sherlock holmesy and things that need
to be considered when you're dealing with thousands of pounds
of physical evidence in a crime scene. So that's one
(12:21):
thing that the cattle, the mystery cattle that's the scenario
has that a lot of other types of so called
paranormal phenomena do not have. And that is a crime
scene of physical evidence. And that's one of the reasons
why I got very fascinated by these types of cases,
(12:42):
because they did supply physical evidence, and you know, you
don't very little physical evidence is left behind by UFOs
if any the vast majority of cases don't have any.
You may, if you're lucky to get a photograph or
some video, you know, once in a blue moon, once out,
(13:03):
you know, every one hundred thousand cases, you might have
some physical ground trace evidence. Yeah, it's it's pretty rare.
And so with the cattle mutes, it's it's an embarrassment
of riches I believe me.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
You Christopher, did you just say cattle mutes?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, it's not the brevity version of utes. I like that.
So what was your first case that.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
That Well, the first case that I knew about was
Snippy the Horse, which happened in nineteen sixty seven, way
before the the seventies waves of thousands of cases when
when it really went full full blown. I was ten
years old, standing in line with my mom in a safeway,
and I noticed this headline on the inquiry, you know,
(13:57):
flying saucers killed my horse, and there was a photograph
of these people looking at this horribly disfigured the horse
line on the ground, and I just bugged my mom.
I just bugged her and bugged her because I didn't
have any money on me and I needed fifty cents
to buy the inquirer, and she refused, I won't let
you read that trash, you know, And so finally I
(14:23):
I don't know what I did to convince her, but
she finally relented that I just wouldn't shut up about it,
and so she left me by it devoured the article.
Come to find out, this horse had been horribly disfigured
in the the mother of the owner of the horse
had seen a flying saucer the day before, so hence
(14:44):
the connection was made between the UFOs and livestock mutilations,
which I've been kind of battling against that knee jerk
connection for thirty years because I think there's something of
infinitely more complex going on.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
But well, yeah, I mean, correlation is in confirmation, So
there could be two separate things occurring, or one might
attract the other.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Is that possibility?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Well yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean there's been just
as many helicopter sidings as there have been UFO sidings
around calimulation cases. So right, yeah, you know, Linda how
would say, oh, it's helicopters masquerading UFOs masquerading this helicopter
because of one sheriff that he saw and turned into
(15:35):
a ball of helicopter turned into a ball of light
or something. So anyway, I noticed that where this case
had occurred was in the San Luis Valley in Colorado,
And you know, flash forward twenty two years to nineteen
(15:55):
eighty nine. I had moved out from the East coast
out to Santa Fe, Mexico, and I was gonna, you know,
relocate there with my girlfriend and we quickly realized that
it just wasn't right, it wasn't a good fit. Kind
of My guides were telling me to move because I
(16:16):
saw three fatal car accidents and pedestrian got hit by
a car in front of me, and just a lot
of clues. Within a week, we had friends that were
up in the Sand Lois Valley and they said, well,
come on up here, we have two extra bedrooms. Check
it out, see if you like it. And I ended
up living there for thirteen years, kind of which I
(16:37):
was investigating full time along with the county sheriffs and
a big quite a sizable network of skywatchers that I
move assembly the whole time I was there. I ended
up And so that's kind of how I got involved.
(16:57):
My first real case where I went out actually saw
one on the ground. I was interviewing a rancher that
had lost forty nine head in two weeks back in
seventy five and shot either shot with firearms stolen, or mutilating.
Combination of all three. Forty nine in two weeks is
a pretty hard hit. And during the interview you can
(17:22):
hear the phone ring and he goes and answers his
phone a landline back in ninety three, and he goes, yeah,
he's still here. Okay, I'll tell him. He hangs up
and he goes, yeah, my nephew just called. He said,
last night they had a mutilation on the ranch. You
want to go see it? I said, yeah, why not?
(17:47):
So that was my first one. We went and and
that was my first case. I took forensic samples and
sent them to a hematologist who later got inside a
degree and animal pathology, who was the one that examined
Snippy the horse back in sixty seven. Coincidentally interesting, and
(18:09):
doctor John Altschuler, and he determined that the animal had
been cut with high heat. There was cookedino globein and
cauterized couplearis along the incisional area. And we collected this
weird kind of yellow, sort of semi transparent. It kind
(18:33):
of looked like orange marmalade without the pieces of orange
in it. It had bubbles in it, It had kind
of an oily texture. We collected enough to cover a
quarter and carefully, you know, scraped it into a film cannon,
little film canister pre digital cameras and.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, we don't have any canisters.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
For the kids out there. If they want to I'm
talking about. And so I taped it up with a
piece of duct tape and signed my name on it
to make sure that it got their intact. At considerable expense,
I had it immediately taken up to all Schuler and
that that that same day, and he opened it up
(19:21):
and he called me and he was all angry. He goes,
why are you sending me an empty film funk container?
And I said, well, we scraped this jelly like substance
into it, and he goes, I scraped all through that
that thing and the only thing that comes out. You know,
I'm examining the you know, the inside of this thing.
The only thing that's ever been in there is film.
(19:44):
And so go figure my you know.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Kind of an X files thing. So that was my
first case, and then I'm subsequent to that, then you know,
hell broke loose. From ninety three to two thousand and two,
I investigated in the cases.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Now and then fast forward, there have been sort of
a mini wave of cases over the past few years.
I mean, you've got in New Mexico, Colorado, Texas, Oregon, Kansas.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, So so one, do you do you see any
sort of stimulus to cause this or is this just
another anomalous wave.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Well, I think they're all was going on. I've come
up with the well, I think a fairly well positioned
or thought out figure of one out of ten. So
ten percent of cases I think are actually reported. I
think ninety of them are dragged off to a bone pile, buried, burnt,
(20:54):
A lot of them are or the rancher won't even
tell his family about him.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I imagine if it's a small enough the may just
cut their losses and avoid the attention exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yeah, because they know that any sort of exposure is
just going to have people tramping around. It's going to
kind of, you know, stigmatize them in their community. Ranching
communities tend to be pretty close knit, and then you
don't want to stick out. You know. It's only when
when when they see helicopters and they think the government's
had for some reason, it's targeted them, or that it's
(21:27):
a government thing. That tends to draw a little ethinic
more reports. Strange lights will also tend to provoke reports,
but when people just find them with no rhyme or reason,
no indication of who, what, where or when about you know,
the events surrounding the case is just they stumble on
(21:50):
unimulated animal and they, for no rhyme or reason, it's
lying there. I think those are the ones. The vast
majority of those are, you know, just out of sight,
out of mind, handled by the rancher in a very
expeditious manner. So one of the things that I must
(22:11):
say about the Oregon cases and the Northern California case,
I predicted him. David Perkins, who we lost a year
ago August, who was my mentor, was the grandfather of newtology,
if you will. He's been at it since seventy five,
(22:33):
you know, a master's in political science from Yale University.
Extremely bright, very best writer I've ever met. He and
I worked very closely together on a lot of these cases,
and he came up with a theory in seventy nine
that he noticed that he saw a map of the
(22:57):
actual distribution of rat from above ground nuclear tests from
the Nevada test site. We blew up one hundred nukes
in the open atmosphere, you know, above ground and in
the United States, and if you look at the wind
patterns that carried it from the wind from the Southwest
(23:18):
carried it to the northeast. The radiation map, if you will,
If you look at a map of radiation and overlay
it with a map of the mutilations, it's it's almost
a perfect match. There's very little variation. And so he he.
(23:38):
One of the first patterns that was identified by investigators
was this correlation between you know, being downwind and downstream
of wherever utilized uranium, whether in power plants, nuclear uh
you know, ICBM silos, mister field weapons and enrichment facilities,
(23:58):
you know, power plan places where we have nuclear weapons storage.
You go down wind downstream from those places. Those are
the areas of highest incidents for mulations. And you know,
I've been talking about this for years since I met
him in ninety three. It just made perfect sense to
(24:19):
me when he showed me his mass, and so I've
been talking about this for years. Well, flash forward to
twenty eleven. We had the Fukushima event where we were
those two reactors sent over a pretty sizable cloud of
radiation which hit California in Oregon, and I said to David,
(24:45):
I said, well, if your radiation theory hasn't any legs,
we should start seeing mutilations in Oregon in northern California. Now,
mulations normally really don't occur up there. There have been
some and some in Washington, some in BC, but they're
compared to the Monk Rocky Mountain in Midwestern states, very
(25:10):
very few. They have thousands over there. There's dozens maybe
in the West. It's not where radiation goes from nuclear tests,
if you will, going with that theory. So, we hadn't
really heard of any mulations in Oregon since the late nineties,
(25:32):
at least took to my knowledge. And so there's been
by some estimates upwards of two hundred cases in Oregon
alone since twenty twelve, So coincidence, well.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
To them what followed?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So, okay, radiation then mutilation. Let's say, let's assume that
would be why the helicopters, you know, why the odd incisions,
what's going on there?
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Well, that that gets into it more of a general conversation.
But I thought you were going to ask, well, what
does radiation have to do with anything? And my answer
to that would be if you look at the mutilations
not as a food gathering effort by aliens or some
sort of genetic harvesting of DNA or their genes to
(26:33):
hybridize their dying race. And these et derived theories, which
make no sense to me at all, have absolutely no
evidence to back them up. I think aliens from another
planet coming to harvest cow cow rectums is pretty ludicrous.
(26:54):
It's the least likely scenario in my.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, and at least like to do it, you know,
so publicly, not just take them on board.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Well, because then there would be a grand theft police
report for a piece of stolen livestock. Believe in their
plausible deniability. How to side out of mind Rancher drags
it off. Nobody knows you.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Are you saying that from perspective of humans or extraterrestrials?
Speaker 3 (27:23):
I think it's uh, mostly humans doing this, Okay, So
there's there's various groups. There's various groups that are that
are that are involved. It's not just one. I think
the government's doing it because they're monitoring the high strange cases,
which is the rarest of all the cases. They're the
ones that you can't explain with forensic science. They're they're
(27:45):
paranormal in nature. We had a case. Her veterinarian called
me and said, you're not going to believe this, but
my my cow her rear end was a scar tissued
shut and she couldn't give birth to her calf, so
I cut her open. She died and the baby in
the womb getting ready to be born was mutilated. And
(28:08):
how to explain that in the womb? Wow cases where
animals have been found intact with you know, tongue gone, mannible,
flesh exposed, we're in taken out, but no spinal.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Cord, right, So.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Those are very rare. Those are the ones that the
government may somehow be able to monitor when they happen.
And that's why you see the helicopters. You never see
the helicopters during very rarely during the during the mutilation.
There have been cases where that's in the case though, Okay,
very rarely do you see them before. The vast majority
(28:54):
of helicopters students are after. It's almost like they're they're
responding to a case and the following day though they'll
be seen by the rancher.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
So what I was thinking is with radiation and then
mutilation afterwards, you know, would it be the government coming
in just to take sampling and and and whatnot to
study the effects of radiation.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's that's one theory. It's I think it's even more though.
I think it's a environmental monitoring environment. It's not it's
not the cow or the bulls or the calf or
the steer, it's where it is in the environment mm hmm.
And I think it's the actual environment itself that's the
(29:37):
the reason why these uh these animals are being targeted.
It's where they where they graze, uhh. I think it
also may involve the beef industry being terrified that mad
cow disease might break out in the food chain, and
I think they may be involved in doing some cases.
(29:59):
We know that they're they're monitoring the beefords in this
country very closely, and they do they do have sampling,
they do buy animals at sales and stuff, but there
might be some societal manipulation going on. Ranchers tend to
(30:20):
be more conservative, They tend to be well armed, They
tend to be organized, like the the bundies up in Nevada.
A lot of them are militia members, so there may
be an effort to keep the ranchers down by terrorizing
them with mutilations. We also have rich ranchers that have
(30:42):
been pretty much caught red handed mutilating neighbors, cattle neighbors
who won't sell their land to the ranchers so he
can stand his ranch. So we have some cases that
may that may involve large ranching concerns trying to gobble
up land around them using relations as they terror tactic. Yeah,
(31:04):
seventy to eighty percent of the ranches that were around
in the Midwest in the seventies are now gobbled up
and gone gobbled up by Cargill and these large, a
large agro concerns. The beef industry is the largest single
(31:27):
income producer in agriculture, and if you combine important poultry,
it's the sizeable, sizable chunk of of of how much
ago business generates in terms of revenue. And I think
it's a really complicated scenario, and I think all these
groups are piggybacking their agenda on the other groups so
(31:51):
that they can hide their activities. We've had cases that
look like red herring cases. Have an insurance adjuster in Canada,
and you know Alberta who noticed that there would be
a mutilation a highest strange one and then in a
square around that case forty miles out to the north
(32:16):
southeast and West, there'd be formal cases, almost like something
is trying to keep people from looking at the original
case that's in the middle, and then they do cases
on the outlier cases.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Right, there's a grand or something or other that they
should be pursuing.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Well, it's this is way more complicated than aliens coming
to gather, you know, ingredients for cow Buttso fle or
lip and I stew.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I have to appreciate your imagination, Chris. I guess you've
been at it long enough though, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Well, my favorite is, my favorite theory that I can
up with is it's chefs in the future coming back
to harvest illegal cattle parts. Cattle is going to be
outlawed as a protein source at some point in our
not too distant future. Interest, So they're time traveling to
come back and gather ingredients for a million dollar plate,
(33:18):
you know, delicacies and secret restaurants for the for the
elites in the future.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Well, sure, I know that there's some areas, like I
think in Norway, but certainly in Japan there's still some
areas where you can legally hunt dolphins, right, and uh,
you know the rest of you know, humanity things that's
not okay. You shouldn't do that. So maybe there is
a future where you know, we all disagree, we all
(33:49):
agree that, you know, eating mammals is a terrible thing,
but I think that would be a very long time from.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Now, not necessarily, you know, with all this emphasis on
you know, ozone depleting gases, cattle or the second largest
natural source of thozone depleting gas.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Well that's true, but we could just reduce right.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Well, we have consumption. I mean, at the height of
of you know, the number of cows in North America
was that was actually at the height of a beef
consumption by consumers was between nineteen seventy five and nineteen
seventy eight, when at the height of the mulation waves
of the seventies. Not a little coincidence there for you.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, you know, I have to wonder, almost like the
red herrings you were talking about before. Could these high
stranger just events be purposely committed, you know, within certain
periods like this, to kind of hide it or to
make it appear as if it's it's correlated with some
(34:54):
other trend.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, I think so. Not the not the core cases,
the you know, out of two hundred cases, I figured
about one hundred and sixty were equivocal. Could be unusual
scavenger action, and you know it could have been any
number of natural debunkers style rationale for the cases. Yeah,
(35:19):
but definitely forty we're we're done with with intelligence using tools.
Out of the two hundred and I'm being I'm being
super critical here, and out of those forty, there were
about eight i would say seven, eight nine maybe that
were high strange and could not be explained with conventional explanations.
(35:45):
The calf retulated inside the animal was one bizarre great
brains missing with no break into the cranium. Uh final
hoords gone. Those cases can't be explained. Now there were
that were equally perplexing but could be explained by high
(36:07):
tech weaponry that the military might have, for instance MIDS.
The National Institute for Discovery Science, Robert Bigelow's original group,
the ones that did the offsapp investigations on Skinwalker Ranch.
They they investigating a case where the vet did an
(36:30):
nee cropsy in the field and he opened it up
and the animal being cooked from the inside out like
it had been putting a giant microwave. I'd explained, now, well,
I don't know was exotic weaponry being tested. How you
explained it?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, it was like an ionic radiation that like what
what what could cause that?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
I mean? And why?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Okay, if if it was mentioned, if it was the government,
I mean, why would they even like what would what
can you imagine someone might be testing for or testing on?
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Well, why would you find on the Walton ranch? The
Walton family, Sam Walton, the guy that owns Walmart in Benton,
Arkansas where benton Ville, Arkansas or Benton forget where he
has a herd of animals. He found a mutilation and
there was an occult altar that in a kind of
(37:32):
a rough altar that seemed to have some ritual objects
and other things. I forget the details of what they
found on the altar, but it led the ranch ranch
hands immediately to conclude the double worshipers were involved immutilating
Walton's animal. Well, they did an ee cropsy on it
(37:55):
and they found mescaline, the active ingredient in peote. They
found mesculine in the blood. No, what's wrong with that picture?
I mean every type of substance that you can imagine
has been found in psyde cattle blood and in ocular fluid.
There was one case that Knits had in utah in
(38:17):
the tear ducts. In the ocular fluid of a mutilated animal,
they found potassium cyanide, which is what we use to
kill people in executions. We've had cases where they found nicotides, coagulants,
any coagulants, barbituates, any number of substances have been found out.
(38:40):
Anyone that wants to promote the aliens are doing this
theory are going to have a hard time explaining those
particular scientific facts away with some sort of alien explanation.
Aliens don't inject cows with mesculine, to my knowledge, maybe they.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, I mean that.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I think that we should never assume to know the
mind of another sentient being. It's hard enough knowing the
human minds. Yeah, but I was I want to ask you.
Have you ever been up to the like the Rocky
Mountain Ranch where Katie Page does a lot of research.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
No, but I was really very familiar with its called
the Clearview Case, and in the in the literature, Timothy
Good talked about it in Alien Agenda. Mm hm, that's
where I first learned about it. I talked with Leo
Sprinkle about it. This is way back in the early nineties.
(39:40):
I've been familiar with the case for years, and then
when Katie came forward, it was like, finally we found
out where this where this happened. I always thought it
was further west by the Air Force Academy, but I
was I was close. It was in Nope, I think,
uh the pass on Pasi County, I forget anyway, it
(40:06):
was a little further west from there. No, I haven't
actually been to that particular site. But I was the
first out of Utah investigator to go to Skinwalker Ranch
all the way back in ninety six. So I met
Terry Sherman and interviewed him before Bigelow contacted him and
(40:28):
then bought the ranch and slapped him with a non
disclosure agreement.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
So that's what happened.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, hired him as the ranch manager so he could
move and then I think he moved to Montana with
his family and then ended up moving back to Utah.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Is there is there something that that even nids Bigelow
knows about the Skinwalker Ranch that the current the current
production that is there now, Yeah, there are things that
they're not sharing.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they I mean they had a real
solid what was it ninety six to two thousand and six.
So no, it was even more than that two thousand
and six, almost twenty years he had the ranch, and
(41:33):
I was able to get all the daily report logs
entries for the year of two thousand and nine, and
just based on what I was reading in there, they
had active, an active presence on the ranch for years,
so they had to have been able to gather some information,
(41:57):
especially back in the in the late nineties. Once was
really happening up there, I think the activity fell by
the wayside for quite a number of years. Yeah, the
early two thousands, I think, and then and then they
had a resurgence around two thousand and eight, two thousand
and nine, twenty ten.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Well, that actually kind of corresponds with error. I mean,
a'll sap.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Well that then OSAP came in in two thousand and ten.
Yea and kellerher had the the thirty reports written by
various individuals including the output Off and Eric Davis and
a bunch of that are in the farious cast of
Defense Department businesses.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
What do you what do you say? The nefarious.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Once to spook out was spooky in my book, These guys,
you know, they're real secretive. They they know a lot
of the wrong people, and.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Sometimes it's good to know the wrong people.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
I suppose, Well, yeah, yeah, like I do. I mean
I I had dog bige Low for years. In fact,
I think I almost single handedly shamed and the into
putting up a website and published published papers. I dogged
them and dog I was the only one that would
do it six ninety seven and then and then they
(43:26):
finally started releasing papers. They finally started publishing work and
and working with with some select investigators. It's it's interesting
I bury the hatchet with them after John Alexander, who
(43:47):
has a doctorate in the study of death and was
in charge of non lethal weapons development at Los Animals.
That's an interesting juxtaposition. Anyway, I was dogging him, a
dogging NIDS about something and I got a disturbing email
(44:09):
from him, something about what's this about aliens eating people?
I was chasing down some rumors of nid's personnelity being
killed on the on the Skidwalker ranch, and boy, I
smacked the hornets and mess with that one. Did two
weeks of freaking damage control on that. And that's one
of the things that that happened Alexander, uh, you know,
(44:36):
gave fired off a very cryptic email. So I said, okay,
that's it. These guys are publishing papers, they're you know,
they're they're at least trying to look like they're you know,
they're trying to share data. So I contacted him and said, okay,
let's be friends. And they said, okay, good. You know,
(44:57):
we will pay for all your lab work, will pay
you your vets to go out and do the cropsies.
Here's here's our protocols, you know, spread them around to
your vetinarians. And so I got everybody on the same page,
five veterinarians to sign on to do nee crop season
and to do field work. And uh, I didn't have
(45:18):
a case for seven years.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
By just by coincidence or funny how that works.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Right, Yes, signing things not always the best idea. When
you're watching Skinwalker Ranch the show, and I pres I'm
assuming that you have seen seen the show.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
This last season. I haven't seen. But what do you
what do you.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
When you see because because some of the some of
the stuff does seem tantalizing very much.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
So I really admire Brandon and his guys. I think
it's a groundbreaking work they're doing. I think they're handcuffed
a little bit by the you know, by the format
that they're locked into there with the cliffhangers and all that,
(46:15):
and sure what looks like inforced drama, which they swear
up or down that it's not, but the way it's
that it did and stuff, it's.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Exactly yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Having having been I was associate producer on three of
the top five UFO documentaries of two thousand and twenty
two and three. I've been involved on front and of
the camera and behind the camera for many years. And
(46:49):
I know, I know how the game is played, and
I know how this stuff is done, and and these
guys to have these cameras around and and I just
admire that an ass and the fact that they're able
to do the quality of work that they're doing. I
think it's a it's really groundbreaking work. And I took
(47:10):
my hat to then. I'm I can't say I'm a
big fan. There's some things that you know, some things
I have problems with and and whatnot. And I think
that there's just some things that they could be doing
that they're not doing. But they're using UFO app software
(47:31):
and the core in their system, so I don't want
to bite the hand that well.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
For everyone everyone listening, what's an explain that the.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
UFO dat acquisition project is an effort that I've been
involved with going on fifteen years now. Where we When
I say we, I mean Ron oldsh my engineer who's
located in California. He is a computer scientist, inventor, software designer.
(48:02):
He's come up with targeting software that you can use
with pretty much any you know over the counter security camera.
And what it does is it identifies anomalous events. It
then locks onto it with a bounding box like targeting
software and a jet fighter and then it does motion
(48:24):
tracking so that you can use your camera as a
UFO detection device and record events. And you can plug
up to six cameras into it so you can triangulate
and with GPS which is onboard, you can you can
(48:44):
show where the object is in the environment on a map,
altitude speed. We have add ons like blaze gradings where
you can divide night time sightings the lights. You can
divide it up into light spectra, have a radio frequency
spectrum analyzer, magnetometers, gravitometers, that's multisensor for sure. Yeah, the
(49:08):
MSDAU unit's, the multi censor data acquisition units are pretty sophisticated.
The most sophisticated, I think in the in the civilian
sector where because we've gotten some exposure on Expedition X,
the Carolyn Corey movie are Tearing the Sky and also
(49:31):
the Skinwalker ranch is using our our most tracting software.
Because of that exposure, we've expanded around the planet. We're
on four continents, eighteen countries, twenty one states, I think
three or four Canadian provinces, we're in Finland, we're in
(49:52):
two or three in Italy and Germany and Switzerland and
Australia and New Zealand Brazil. So quietly the civilians, Yeah,
detection uh scenario because of the technology UH becoming more
(50:14):
and more affordable. For just hundreds of dollars, you can
have your own UFO detection set up. UH. That's pretty
customized for your particular location. We we don't just sell equipment,
we customize it for the particular use. So we're not
going to sell you a bunch of gear you don't need.
If you if you don't have exposure on the sides
(50:37):
of your place and you only have you know, one
view that looks out and that's where all the activity is.
You know, we're not going to try to sell your
stuff that's going to look behind you. And we don't
make any money. We don't mark up the the cost
of the gear. You conquer itself dollars. Yes, he has
over six years of work into helping the software. One
(51:00):
hundred thousand lines of code that they wrote. It's real
sophisticated and there is a bit of a learning curve.
But you know, we have a whole community online and
on discord and uh, we've got tons of of people
that are really now up to speed on how the
gear operates. And so we do have a lot of
(51:22):
I think a good level of quality of customer support.
And you know, we're shooting to possibly dovetail our efforts
with with other groups brand Ridge and made our folks.
You know, there's some talk maybe NASA might be interested
in They found out about us to a SCU Society for.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Scientific Coalition for UFO Studies.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
Yeah, there you go anyway. Robert Palace one of one
of our big supporters. We also have a partner called
UFO Data, which is the guys up at KUFOS in
Chicago and also Alexander went PhD. He's an optical guy.
I'm not sure you o s u Ohio State University
(52:14):
and they've they've offered to do any analysis of good
data that we are able to produce with the with
the gear, and they've said, hey, well we'll help you
analyze it. And it's you know, it's it's one thing
to have some software engineers and uh, you know, gumshoe
investigators analyzing your video. It's another thing to have an
(52:35):
optical physicist.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Honestly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
But that but that network, that that that's building the
independent network then, you know, with the academic network. And now,
like you said, NASA is in widening its arms and
seemingly embracing some.
Speaker 3 (52:54):
Of this project or Abby low.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Right, and and it seems like y'all are kind of
keeping in touch one way or another. Kevinkanuoth from u
APX was just on last night. We were kind of
discussing this a little bit. An Arrow recently announced that
they are working towards a case management system for civilians
to report and I kind of thought that that seems
(53:21):
like that's a good thing, and yet maybe too much,
Maybe it's too much for the government to just suddenly
take on all these civilian cases that all these now
independent entities have been doing an are doing. Would be
better to use our tax payer money is really focus
on the military or you know, government property incidents.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Well, you know, you would think with all the multi
sensor data acquisition platforms at the military, I mean, nobody
ever talks about you know, the what is it? What's
our Well, the NSA is is one, but what's the
(54:11):
the group that is involved with taking care of all
our satellite data, the geospatial you would think that those
guys have if we're dealing with with with true aliens
coming from from outside of our closed system here, you
would think that they would have quite a bit of
data as well. And and one thing that I'm really
(54:35):
gratified to see is the now the new focus on USO,
so you know, and identified some merged objects of One
of my favorite UFO books of all time is Ivan
Sanderson's Invisible Residence, which is the whole book full of
USO sidings and the incredible figure that he proposed in
(54:56):
the book that over fifty percent of all UFO sidings
have to do with bodies of water. There's something I
think there's some evidence that the Navy is sitting on
that may indicate that we have other tenants in the
building that may exist, you know, in some of the
deeper ocean trenches, and there may be some sort of
(55:18):
civilization that's that's aquatic, at least where there where they're
either aquatic or below the thin lar basalt that's on
the ocean floor. That has always been something that I've
kind of felt intuitively there's something that is probably happening
(55:41):
also inside certain mountains. Countless supports in the San Louis
Valley of UFO is going directly into mountains and not
without any any real well, some some with doorways opening
up and closing, others without doorways opening and closing. So
there may be some and maybe some activity inside the
(56:03):
earth atitoo so subterranean. But I don't think it's by
accident that our very first intelligence organization in our in
our country's history was naval Intelligence, which was started in
the eighteen eighties. Maybe the Navy was seeing these things
going in and out of the oceans and that's why
(56:25):
they started naval intelligence. Well, to my knowledge, I've never
seen any mention of why naval intelligence was started so
long ago. I mean it predates it predates all the
other intelligence agencies by sixty seventy years.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Right, right, And we know that historically they've been reports
by sailors of what would otherwise described as UFOs. And
it's interesting too that there's this kind of this focus
leaning in that.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Direction you have.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
You know, w ziegel Meyer has written about this. Uh,
Darcy Weir released a documentary this past year, and Richard
Dolan's working on a book right now on USO cases.
And it's like, I kind of feel like the the
UFO research community is ahead of the arrow investigations.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
You know. It's like report that Stricklan came out with,
it's just I mean insulting UAP versus UFO thing. That's
a way of sweeping seventy years of lies and and
data under the rugs, so that nobody you know, oh,
well those are UFOs. We're dealing with the UAPs, you know, jeez,
(57:42):
stop sitting on your thumbs.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Well, hey, Chris, we are at the end. So I
just want to thank you so much for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah, no problem, And we were just getting started exactly.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
This is what I'm glad.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
I'm glad we had a good talk and maybe we
can do it in the future if you're if you're
open to.
Speaker 2 (58:03):
That, sure, Where uh where where where would you leave
us with? What thought would you leave us with?
Speaker 3 (58:11):
Well, again, I think it's important for everybody to be
proactive and be part of the solution, not a part
of the problem. Contact your congress people, tell them that
you support this new effort within the government for UFO
disclosure and for the government to come forward and finally
admit to the level of their involvement in this subject.
(58:32):
And you know, to just see and hear about biological
evidence and crash retrievals and and crash you know, material
dodict meted materials and that sort of thing in the
halls of Congress has just warms the cockles of my heart.
I never thought today. So we live in interesting times. Uh,
(58:57):
you know, just be safe out there.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yeah, I want to say to all the younger people
listening as well. You know, I'm kind of in between there,
so I understand what you're saying. But I do feel
like the younger generations there is a an expectation that we
should get disclosure today.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
It's and tomorrow, and people who've been around.
Speaker 1 (59:25):
For a while, you know, know that this takes a
long time.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
And the fact that you're saying that, the fact.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
That that that what you're seeing is different than what
we've experienced decades past, is a good sign. It's a
really good sign that that you're because when you get
burnt over and over again, it's not easy for one
to say, oh, this is a good thing. You know,
this is this is what we're making come. So a
(59:49):
last question, then, is this small D. Are we in
the small D disclosure?
Speaker 3 (59:55):
Yeah, we are. It's gonna it's gonna take a I
think a big D disclosure is going to have to
be some sort of press conference with the president, uh
maybe bringing out some sort of I think most of
the good, the good evidence, A lot of the stuff
is wrapped up in the private sector, beyond the reach
(01:00:19):
of the Freedom of Information Act. So I think we
need to break that wall of secrecy with the with
the proprietary companies that are holding I think most of
the good stuff, and that that would be the large
the big D disclosure. The very fact that we're going
to small D disclosure gives big D disclosure more of
(01:00:42):
a potential of actually occurring.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
All right, well here's the hoping. All right, Thank you
so much, Christopher. I really really appreciate.
Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
It to this guy. And if you can't do that,
keep your ears to the ground.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Yeah, or to the water. All right, So check out Stalking.
They heard his classic book. And yeah, so again, thank you, Christopher.
Have a good night, and thank you everyone for joining.
I love these I love these cases and I love
these topics. And again, this is why the cattle mutilation
topic is so interesting because it takes me in so
(01:01:18):
many different places. If you appreciate this conversation and all
the other kind of conversations that we have on the
Mystic Lounge channel here on YouTube, YouTube dot com slash
Mystic Lounge. Please follow on social media where you can
get show updates. On Instagram, it's at paranormal Now, on
threads at paranormal Now.
Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
I'm rarely on.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Next these days, but I might post something that would
be Paranormal underscore now. And I just started a couple
of accounts. I'm not sure which one I'm going to
keep on Blue Sky. So there's a coffee and UFOs
and Mystic Lounge on Blue Sky and in time I'll
figure out which one I'm going to use, but you
can look out for me there for updates, and as usual,
(01:02:01):
a friendly reminder that this broadcast is rebroadcast on the
UNEX Network eleven pm Pacific Time on Thursday's two am
Eastern time on Friday evenings here on the East Coast.
Until next time, everyone, peace and love and live in
the mystery. It's good to be in personally.
Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
I wish more of us would think of ourselves that way.
I don't have a problem with skeptics. It's de bunkers
that are on some other level that I don't understand.
(01:02:56):
Essentially an influence of a change in local gravity, saucer
shaped craft and they're hovering over the water.
Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Bluebook Special Report fourteenth. The better the quality of the sighting,
the more likely to be unexplainable,
Hey, welcome back everyone to coffee and UFO's two of
my favorite things. I have a fantastic guest tonight, Christopher
oh Brian. We'll talk to Christopher in just a moment,
but I'll say this, if you love, the most mysterious
side to the UFO phenomena here on Earth, in my mind,
(00:41):
is definitely the cattle mutilation phenomena, because there is a
question is it even related to UFOs, is it something
of its own poweranormal state, or is it a government conspiracy.
There's so much tied to cattle mutilations, so I'm really
excited to talk to Christopher in just a moment. As
a friendly reminder, this pat podcast and the Mystic Lounge
(01:02):
podcast is rebroadcast on the Unexed network every Thursday eleven
pm Pacific time, two am Eastern Time on Fridays, and
you can listen to this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.
So if you're a fan, if you can rate a
comment down below, share all that really helps the channel grow,
(01:25):
and it's growing thanks to you guys, so I really
appreciate that. Now I'm going to bring on our esteemed guest,
Christopher O'Brien.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Hey, how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I'm doing good.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
It's been a long time and since then, you know,
there have been a number of cases, cattle mutilation cases,
and you were also recently on the Netflix Unsolved Mystery series.
They did an episode on mostly the Oregon cases out
on the West there. Very briefly for anyone who is
(01:59):
not familiar with Christopher O'Brien, he is a fantastic researcher.
He's been at this for a long time and he's
one of the most prolific authors and researchers and presenters
on the cattle mutilation mystery. But you know, other than
his work Stalking the Herd, he has authored multiple other books,
(02:20):
including Cryptozoology UFO. So Christopher is all over the map,
and in a positive way, because the paranormal and UFOs
are all over the map. And I love that we
have you because there is something synergistic about all these
(02:42):
sometimes seemingly disparate phenomenon. So, Christopher, if you can give
us a little bit of an introduction to yourself and
how you got involved.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
In all this.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Well, I'm an experiencer. I had up close and personal
encounter when I was seven, probably the most one of
the most important events of my life left no doubt
in my mind. I'm not alone that there's non human
entities that I think coexists along with us. They're probably
(03:17):
more terrestrial than we are, in my opinion. I don't
particularly think that we're dealing with galactic citizens or citizens
that are coming from other star systems. I think they've
been here probably longer than we have, and we may
be the aliens. Okay, yeah, well it's it's not my theory,
(03:41):
it's it's been proposed for quite a while. But I
do I do before we before we go on, I
want to just commend move on or I know your
your state section director. I think from the field investigator,
the field investigator. Yeah, well, I've been working with Ron James,
(04:02):
who's the media coordinator for the International Organization, and I've
been working with him off and on for twenty years,
and and we live in exciting times. I made bets
with people over the years that there's never going to
be the disclosure with a small or big D in
my lifetime, and I'm glad of being proven wrong. And
(04:25):
Lupon's had had a major role, I think in all
this now with a lobbying firm in d C and briefing, yeah,
and briefing all the Congress people and helping draft legislation
and stuff. That's you know, pinch me. I never thought
i'd see it is.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Weird, it is. It's a funny thing.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I went to the you know, small rally in Manhattan
that side of Senator Schumer's office, and it was just
kind of surreal to see that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You know, there wasn't many of us, maybe thirty, but
it was surreal.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
To see like real boots on the ground activism for
transparency built on not a not a not a wispy cloud,
but built on on strong ground. Because the politicians themselves,
the government representatives of the people, are taking it seriously
(05:26):
so well.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
It's also even even the Congress people are saying, this
is the most bipartisan effort currently going on in Congress
right now. The only it's one of the only things
that they can all agree on is that we're tired
of the secrecy. We're tired of you know, being fed
definitely being lied to, and and uh, you know, we're
(05:49):
mad as hell. We're not gonna take it anymore. I
just love the I love the the fact that we
can all work together as a team. I'm a team player.
But anyway, be that as it may, I just wanted
to before we we went much further, I wanted to
to mention how exciting it is. And you know, somebody
(06:12):
pinched me, it's just bizarre that we we're seeing that
they were living in these in these times. So anyway,
my whole thing is I I've always known since I
was seven that we were not alone. The entities that
I encountered and followed me around my neighborhood at three
in the morning did not try to communicate with me.
(06:35):
I didn't see any craft. They they were impossibly skinny.
I called them stick men. They had glittering the ones
that were about two feet a half as tall, you know,
they were about three and a half four feet tall.
The ones are about two feet and they had glittering
light going up and down, and it threw off enough
(06:56):
ambient light where I was able to see the figures
that were impossibly skinny. You know. Their legs were like
the like my thumb, their arms were like my my tomb. Yeah,
it's h something you don't forget.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
No, I can't imagine that there's so many people who
have similar stories. Not an exact description, but similar of
all ages, not just kids.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
You know.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
But earlier this week we did an episode on Corey
Good and David Wilcock and sort of the Corey Good
fab fabricating you know, this whole mythology. Yeah, so like
but that that brings me to you know how you
know someone's looking from the outside end right, You just
shared your story. Other people have shared their their stories.
(07:48):
But then someone like Corey Good comes out and shares
a story. How do how do you know to to
you know, separate the wheat from the cheft. You know,
how would you recommend people from the outside coming in
approach this?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
It's it's very difficult to ascertain veracity and whether a
person is if they're if they're really good at line,
It's going to be impossible to really determine the level
of veracity. Being a longtime field investigator thirty years and
(08:22):
having interview thousands of people, I can get a pretty
good sense of somebody. How you look for for nonverbal clues.
I've studied you know, NLP and various investigative techniques for
observing witnesses and looking at body language, reading inflection and voices,
(08:47):
looking at at eye movement, you know, that sort of thing.
So I'm sort of trained and have a lot of
experience that determining whether a person is concabulating maybe making
making a story even more exciting you. You often look
for building block uh scenarios where somebody all of a
(09:10):
sudden said, oh, I remember something else, and then you know,
years later, they'll come out with a new book that
has the new information in it. And that's a pretty
good uh signal that it's uh, it's writing on the
coattails of their own of their own U confabulation. Uh.
So it's it's not easy. It's it's difficult. But having
(09:34):
said that, it is it is possible two to determine.
But for the average person, it's it's pretty difficult.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So if you are approaching this subject as a nuts
and bolts person, is that a safe avenue to take?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I mean, can you can? You can? Can you continue.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
To investigate UFOs or cattle mutilations within nuts and bolts?
You know, materialistic focus?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah? Yeah, And that's I'm a you know, I'm a
a pretty pretty jaded tough nut to crack. I've been
at this for over thirty years, investigated over two hundred
cat case cases you know personally and research thousands more,
(10:35):
and you know you do see sign posts, you do
see commonalities, You see trends, you see patterns. You know
the type of organs that are taken, the condition of
the animal. You know, the attendant phenomena or lack of
phenomena around a particular case or or a group of
(10:56):
grouping of cases. These are all things kind of fact
or into your into your thinking and into your conclusions
that you might draw what few conclusions you can draw.
But it's it's important to always keep a kind of
a grounded scientific sort of bent to your to your efforts.
(11:20):
I think everything should spring from there. I do rely
on my intuition. I also rely on my brother's dog,
who would be the first one out of the car
when we got to a case. UH. Generally I would
use my biosensor, if you will, to UH, to go
(11:40):
out and sniff around and show me where the coyotes
had had been, if there were any, Because Cato would
instantly go to any bush that a coyote peede on
to Marcus territory. He would mark his territory there as well,
so that that would instantly give me UH you know,
before I even got close to the animal, would show
(12:01):
me where the coyotes were, and I'd be able to
to follow their tracks into the site, see where they went,
how close they got to the animal. There's a lot
of deductive sort of Sherlock holmesy and things that need
to be considered when you're dealing with thousands of pounds
of physical evidence in a crime scene. So that's one
(12:21):
thing that the cattle, the mystery cattle that's the scenario
has that a lot of other types of so called
paranormal phenomena do not have. And that is a crime
scene of physical evidence. And that's one of the reasons
why I got very fascinated by these types of cases,
(12:42):
because they did supply physical evidence, and you know, you
don't very little physical evidence is left behind by UFOs
if any the vast majority of cases don't have any.
You may, if you're lucky to get a photograph or
some video, you know, once in a blue moon, once out,
(13:03):
you know, every one hundred thousand cases, you might have
some physical ground trace evidence. Yeah, it's it's pretty rare.
And so with the cattle mutes, it's it's an embarrassment
of riches I believe me.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
You Christopher, did you just say cattle mutes?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, it's not the brevity version of utes. I like that.
So what was your first case that.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
That Well, the first case that I knew about was
Snippy the Horse, which happened in nineteen sixty seven, way
before the the seventies waves of thousands of cases when
when it really went full full blown. I was ten
years old, standing in line with my mom in a safeway,
and I noticed this headline on the inquiry, you know,
(13:57):
flying saucers killed my horse, and there was a photograph
of these people looking at this horribly disfigured the horse
line on the ground, and I just bugged my mom.
I just bugged her and bugged her because I didn't
have any money on me and I needed fifty cents
to buy the inquirer, and she refused, I won't let
you read that trash, you know, And so finally I
(14:23):
I don't know what I did to convince her, but
she finally relented that I just wouldn't shut up about it,
and so she left me by it devoured the article.
Come to find out, this horse had been horribly disfigured
in the the mother of the owner of the horse
had seen a flying saucer the day before, so hence
(14:44):
the connection was made between the UFOs and livestock mutilations,
which I've been kind of battling against that knee jerk
connection for thirty years because I think there's something of
infinitely more complex going on.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
But well, yeah, I mean, correlation is in confirmation, So
there could be two separate things occurring, or one might
attract the other.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Is that possibility?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Well yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean there's been just
as many helicopter sidings as there have been UFO sidings
around calimulation cases. So right, yeah, you know, Linda how
would say, oh, it's helicopters masquerading UFOs masquerading this helicopter
because of one sheriff that he saw and turned into
(15:35):
a ball of helicopter turned into a ball of light
or something. So anyway, I noticed that where this case
had occurred was in the San Luis Valley in Colorado,
And you know, flash forward twenty two years to nineteen
(15:55):
eighty nine. I had moved out from the East coast
out to Santa Fe, Mexico, and I was gonna, you know,
relocate there with my girlfriend and we quickly realized that
it just wasn't right, it wasn't a good fit. Kind
of My guides were telling me to move because I
(16:16):
saw three fatal car accidents and pedestrian got hit by
a car in front of me, and just a lot
of clues. Within a week, we had friends that were
up in the Sand Lois Valley and they said, well,
come on up here, we have two extra bedrooms. Check
it out, see if you like it. And I ended
up living there for thirteen years, kind of which I
(16:37):
was investigating full time along with the county sheriffs and
a big quite a sizable network of skywatchers that I
move assembly the whole time I was there. I ended
up And so that's kind of how I got involved.
(16:57):
My first real case where I went out actually saw
one on the ground. I was interviewing a rancher that
had lost forty nine head in two weeks back in
seventy five and shot either shot with firearms stolen, or mutilating.
Combination of all three. Forty nine in two weeks is
a pretty hard hit. And during the interview you can
(17:22):
hear the phone ring and he goes and answers his
phone a landline back in ninety three, and he goes, yeah,
he's still here. Okay, I'll tell him. He hangs up
and he goes, yeah, my nephew just called. He said,
last night they had a mutilation on the ranch. You
want to go see it? I said, yeah, why not?
(17:47):
So that was my first one. We went and and
that was my first case. I took forensic samples and
sent them to a hematologist who later got inside a
degree and animal pathology, who was the one that examined
Snippy the horse back in sixty seven. Coincidentally interesting, and
(18:09):
doctor John Altschuler, and he determined that the animal had
been cut with high heat. There was cookedino globein and
cauterized couplearis along the incisional area. And we collected this
weird kind of yellow, sort of semi transparent. It kind
(18:33):
of looked like orange marmalade without the pieces of orange
in it. It had bubbles in it, It had kind
of an oily texture. We collected enough to cover a
quarter and carefully, you know, scraped it into a film cannon,
little film canister pre digital cameras and.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, we don't have any canisters.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
For the kids out there. If they want to I'm
talking about. And so I taped it up with a
piece of duct tape and signed my name on it
to make sure that it got their intact. At considerable expense,
I had it immediately taken up to all Schuler and
that that that same day, and he opened it up
(19:21):
and he called me and he was all angry. He goes,
why are you sending me an empty film funk container?
And I said, well, we scraped this jelly like substance
into it, and he goes, I scraped all through that
that thing and the only thing that comes out. You know,
I'm examining the you know, the inside of this thing.
The only thing that's ever been in there is film.
(19:44):
And so go figure my you know.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, that.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Kind of an X files thing. So that was my
first case, and then I'm subsequent to that, then you know,
hell broke loose. From ninety three to two thousand and two,
I investigated in the cases.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Now and then fast forward, there have been sort of
a mini wave of cases over the past few years.
I mean, you've got in New Mexico, Colorado, Texas, Oregon, Kansas.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, So so one, do you do you see any
sort of stimulus to cause this or is this just
another anomalous wave.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Well, I think they're all was going on. I've come
up with the well, I think a fairly well positioned
or thought out figure of one out of ten. So
ten percent of cases I think are actually reported. I
think ninety of them are dragged off to a bone pile, buried, burnt,
(20:54):
A lot of them are or the rancher won't even
tell his family about him.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I imagine if it's a small enough the may just
cut their losses and avoid the attention exactly.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yeah, because they know that any sort of exposure is
just going to have people tramping around. It's going to
kind of, you know, stigmatize them in their community. Ranching
communities tend to be pretty close knit, and then you
don't want to stick out. You know. It's only when
when when they see helicopters and they think the government's
had for some reason, it's targeted them, or that it's
(21:27):
a government thing. That tends to draw a little ethinic
more reports. Strange lights will also tend to provoke reports,
but when people just find them with no rhyme or reason,
no indication of who, what, where or when about you know,
the events surrounding the case is just they stumble on
(21:50):
unimulated animal and they, for no rhyme or reason, it's
lying there. I think those are the ones. The vast
majority of those are, you know, just out of sight,
out of mind, handled by the rancher in a very
expeditious manner. So one of the things that I must
(22:11):
say about the Oregon cases and the Northern California case,
I predicted him. David Perkins, who we lost a year
ago August, who was my mentor, was the grandfather of newtology,
if you will. He's been at it since seventy five,
(22:33):
you know, a master's in political science from Yale University.
Extremely bright, very best writer I've ever met. He and
I worked very closely together on a lot of these cases,
and he came up with a theory in seventy nine
that he noticed that he saw a map of the
(22:57):
actual distribution of rat from above ground nuclear tests from
the Nevada test site. We blew up one hundred nukes
in the open atmosphere, you know, above ground and in
the United States, and if you look at the wind
patterns that carried it from the wind from the Southwest
(23:18):
carried it to the northeast. The radiation map, if you will,
If you look at a map of radiation and overlay
it with a map of the mutilations, it's it's almost
a perfect match. There's very little variation. And so he he.
(23:38):
One of the first patterns that was identified by investigators
was this correlation between you know, being downwind and downstream
of wherever utilized uranium, whether in power plants, nuclear uh
you know, ICBM silos, mister field weapons and enrichment facilities,
(23:58):
you know, power plan places where we have nuclear weapons storage.
You go down wind downstream from those places. Those are
the areas of highest incidents for mulations. And you know,
I've been talking about this for years since I met
him in ninety three. It just made perfect sense to
(24:19):
me when he showed me his mass, and so I've
been talking about this for years. Well, flash forward to
twenty eleven. We had the Fukushima event where we were
those two reactors sent over a pretty sizable cloud of
radiation which hit California in Oregon, and I said to David,
(24:45):
I said, well, if your radiation theory hasn't any legs,
we should start seeing mutilations in Oregon in northern California. Now,
mulations normally really don't occur up there. There have been
some and some in Washington, some in BC, but they're
compared to the Monk Rocky Mountain in Midwestern states, very
(25:10):
very few. They have thousands over there. There's dozens maybe
in the West. It's not where radiation goes from nuclear tests,
if you will, going with that theory. So, we hadn't
really heard of any mulations in Oregon since the late nineties,
(25:32):
at least took to my knowledge. And so there's been
by some estimates upwards of two hundred cases in Oregon
alone since twenty twelve, So coincidence, well.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
To them what followed?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So, okay, radiation then mutilation. Let's say, let's assume that
would be why the helicopters, you know, why the odd incisions,
what's going on there?
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Well, that that gets into it more of a general conversation.
But I thought you were going to ask, well, what
does radiation have to do with anything? And my answer
to that would be if you look at the mutilations
not as a food gathering effort by aliens or some
sort of genetic harvesting of DNA or their genes to
(26:33):
hybridize their dying race. And these et derived theories, which
make no sense to me at all, have absolutely no
evidence to back them up. I think aliens from another
planet coming to harvest cow cow rectums is pretty ludicrous.
(26:54):
It's the least likely scenario in my.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, and at least like to do it, you know,
so publicly, not just take them on board.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Well, because then there would be a grand theft police
report for a piece of stolen livestock. Believe in their
plausible deniability. How to side out of mind Rancher drags
it off. Nobody knows you.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Are you saying that from perspective of humans or extraterrestrials?
Speaker 3 (27:23):
I think it's uh, mostly humans doing this, Okay, So
there's there's various groups. There's various groups that are that
are that are involved. It's not just one. I think
the government's doing it because they're monitoring the high strange cases,
which is the rarest of all the cases. They're the
ones that you can't explain with forensic science. They're they're
(27:45):
paranormal in nature. We had a case. Her veterinarian called
me and said, you're not going to believe this, but
my my cow her rear end was a scar tissued
shut and she couldn't give birth to her calf, so
I cut her open. She died and the baby in
the womb getting ready to be born was mutilated. And
(28:08):
how to explain that in the womb? Wow cases where
animals have been found intact with you know, tongue gone, mannible,
flesh exposed, we're in taken out, but no spinal.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Cord, right, So.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Those are very rare. Those are the ones that the
government may somehow be able to monitor when they happen.
And that's why you see the helicopters. You never see
the helicopters during very rarely during the during the mutilation.
There have been cases where that's in the case though, Okay,
very rarely do you see them before. The vast majority
(28:54):
of helicopters students are after. It's almost like they're they're
responding to a case and the following day though they'll
be seen by the rancher.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
So what I was thinking is with radiation and then
mutilation afterwards, you know, would it be the government coming
in just to take sampling and and and whatnot to
study the effects of radiation.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
That's that's one theory. It's I think it's even more though.
I think it's a environmental monitoring environment. It's not it's
not the cow or the bulls or the calf or
the steer, it's where it is in the environment mm hmm.
And I think it's the actual environment itself that's the
(29:37):
the reason why these uh these animals are being targeted.
It's where they where they graze, uhh. I think it
also may involve the beef industry being terrified that mad
cow disease might break out in the food chain, and
I think they may be involved in doing some cases.
(29:59):
We know that they're they're monitoring the beefords in this
country very closely, and they do they do have sampling,
they do buy animals at sales and stuff, but there
might be some societal manipulation going on. Ranchers tend to
(30:20):
be more conservative, They tend to be well armed, They
tend to be organized, like the the bundies up in Nevada.
A lot of them are militia members, so there may
be an effort to keep the ranchers down by terrorizing
them with mutilations. We also have rich ranchers that have
(30:42):
been pretty much caught red handed mutilating neighbors, cattle neighbors
who won't sell their land to the ranchers so he
can stand his ranch. So we have some cases that
may that may involve large ranching concerns trying to gobble
up land around them using relations as they terror tactic. Yeah,
(31:04):
seventy to eighty percent of the ranches that were around
in the Midwest in the seventies are now gobbled up
and gone gobbled up by Cargill and these large, a
large agro concerns. The beef industry is the largest single
(31:27):
income producer in agriculture, and if you combine important poultry,
it's the sizeable, sizable chunk of of of how much
ago business generates in terms of revenue. And I think
it's a really complicated scenario, and I think all these
groups are piggybacking their agenda on the other groups so
(31:51):
that they can hide their activities. We've had cases that
look like red herring cases. Have an insurance adjuster in Canada,
and you know Alberta who noticed that there would be
a mutilation a highest strange one and then in a
square around that case forty miles out to the north
(32:16):
southeast and West, there'd be formal cases, almost like something
is trying to keep people from looking at the original
case that's in the middle, and then they do cases
on the outlier cases.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Right, there's a grand or something or other that they
should be pursuing.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
Well, it's this is way more complicated than aliens coming
to gather, you know, ingredients for cow Buttso fle or
lip and I stew.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I have to appreciate your imagination, Chris. I guess you've
been at it long enough though, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Well, my favorite is, my favorite theory that I can
up with is it's chefs in the future coming back
to harvest illegal cattle parts. Cattle is going to be
outlawed as a protein source at some point in our
not too distant future. Interest, So they're time traveling to
come back and gather ingredients for a million dollar plate,
(33:18):
you know, delicacies and secret restaurants for the for the
elites in the future.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Well, sure, I know that there's some areas, like I
think in Norway, but certainly in Japan there's still some
areas where you can legally hunt dolphins, right, and uh,
you know the rest of you know, humanity things that's
not okay. You shouldn't do that. So maybe there is
a future where you know, we all disagree, we all
(33:49):
agree that, you know, eating mammals is a terrible thing,
but I think that would be a very long time from.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Now, not necessarily, you know, with all this emphasis on
you know, ozone depleting gases, cattle or the second largest
natural source of thozone depleting gas.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Well that's true, but we could just reduce right.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Well, we have consumption. I mean, at the height of
of you know, the number of cows in North America
was that was actually at the height of a beef
consumption by consumers was between nineteen seventy five and nineteen
seventy eight, when at the height of the mulation waves
of the seventies. Not a little coincidence there for you.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, you know, I have to wonder, almost like the
red herrings you were talking about before. Could these high
stranger just events be purposely committed, you know, within certain
periods like this, to kind of hide it or to
make it appear as if it's it's correlated with some
(34:54):
other trend.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, I think so. Not the not the core cases,
the you know, out of two hundred cases, I figured
about one hundred and sixty were equivocal. Could be unusual
scavenger action, and you know it could have been any
number of natural debunkers style rationale for the cases. Yeah,
(35:19):
but definitely forty we're we're done with with intelligence using tools.
Out of the two hundred and I'm being I'm being
super critical here, and out of those forty, there were
about eight i would say seven, eight nine maybe that
were high strange and could not be explained with conventional explanations.
(35:45):
The calf retulated inside the animal was one bizarre great
brains missing with no break into the cranium. Uh final
hoords gone. Those cases can't be explained. Now there were
that were equally perplexing but could be explained by high
(36:07):
tech weaponry that the military might have, for instance MIDS.
The National Institute for Discovery Science, Robert Bigelow's original group,
the ones that did the offsapp investigations on Skinwalker Ranch.
They they investigating a case where the vet did an
(36:30):
nee cropsy in the field and he opened it up
and the animal being cooked from the inside out like
it had been putting a giant microwave. I'd explained, now, well,
I don't know was exotic weaponry being tested. How you
explained it?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, it was like an ionic radiation that like what
what what could cause that?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
I mean? And why?
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Okay, if if it was mentioned, if it was the government,
I mean, why would they even like what would what
can you imagine someone might be testing for or testing on?
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Well, why would you find on the Walton ranch? The
Walton family, Sam Walton, the guy that owns Walmart in Benton,
Arkansas where benton Ville, Arkansas or Benton forget where he
has a herd of animals. He found a mutilation and
there was an occult altar that in a kind of
(37:32):
a rough altar that seemed to have some ritual objects
and other things. I forget the details of what they
found on the altar, but it led the ranch ranch
hands immediately to conclude the double worshipers were involved immutilating
Walton's animal. Well, they did an ee cropsy on it
(37:55):
and they found mescaline, the active ingredient in peote. They
found mesculine in the blood. No, what's wrong with that picture?
I mean every type of substance that you can imagine
has been found in psyde cattle blood and in ocular fluid.
There was one case that Knits had in utah in
(38:17):
the tear ducts. In the ocular fluid of a mutilated animal,
they found potassium cyanide, which is what we use to
kill people in executions. We've had cases where they found nicotides, coagulants,
any coagulants, barbituates, any number of substances have been found out.
(38:40):
Anyone that wants to promote the aliens are doing this
theory are going to have a hard time explaining those
particular scientific facts away with some sort of alien explanation.
Aliens don't inject cows with mesculine, to my knowledge, maybe they.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, I mean that.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I think that we should never assume to know the
mind of another sentient being. It's hard enough knowing the
human minds. Yeah, but I was I want to ask you.
Have you ever been up to the like the Rocky
Mountain Ranch where Katie Page does a lot of research.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
No, but I was really very familiar with its called
the Clearview Case, and in the in the literature, Timothy
Good talked about it in Alien Agenda. Mm hm, that's
where I first learned about it. I talked with Leo
Sprinkle about it. This is way back in the early nineties.
(39:40):
I've been familiar with the case for years, and then
when Katie came forward, it was like, finally we found
out where this where this happened. I always thought it
was further west by the Air Force Academy, but I
was I was close. It was in Nope, I think,
uh the pass on Pasi County, I forget anyway, it
(40:06):
was a little further west from there. No, I haven't
actually been to that particular site. But I was the
first out of Utah investigator to go to Skinwalker Ranch
all the way back in ninety six. So I met
Terry Sherman and interviewed him before Bigelow contacted him and
(40:28):
then bought the ranch and slapped him with a non
disclosure agreement.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
So that's what happened.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, hired him as the ranch manager so he could
move and then I think he moved to Montana with
his family and then ended up moving back to Utah.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Is there is there something that that even nids Bigelow
knows about the Skinwalker Ranch that the current the current
production that is there now, Yeah, there are things that
they're not sharing.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they I mean they had a real
solid what was it ninety six to two thousand and six.
So no, it was even more than that two thousand
and six, almost twenty years he had the ranch, and
(41:33):
I was able to get all the daily report logs
entries for the year of two thousand and nine, and
just based on what I was reading in there, they
had active, an active presence on the ranch for years,
so they had to have been able to gather some information,
(41:57):
especially back in the in the late nineties. Once was
really happening up there, I think the activity fell by
the wayside for quite a number of years. Yeah, the
early two thousands, I think, and then and then they
had a resurgence around two thousand and eight, two thousand
and nine, twenty ten.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Well, that actually kind of corresponds with error. I mean,
a'll sap.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Well that then OSAP came in in two thousand and ten.
Yea and kellerher had the the thirty reports written by
various individuals including the output Off and Eric Davis and
a bunch of that are in the farious cast of
Defense Department businesses.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
What do you what do you say? The nefarious.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Once to spook out was spooky in my book, These guys,
you know, they're real secretive. They they know a lot
of the wrong people, and.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Sometimes it's good to know the wrong people.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
I suppose, Well, yeah, yeah, like I do. I mean
I I had dog bige Low for years. In fact,
I think I almost single handedly shamed and the into
putting up a website and published published papers. I dogged
them and dog I was the only one that would
do it six ninety seven and then and then they
(43:26):
finally started releasing papers. They finally started publishing work and
and working with with some select investigators. It's it's interesting
I bury the hatchet with them after John Alexander, who
(43:47):
has a doctorate in the study of death and was
in charge of non lethal weapons development at Los Animals.
That's an interesting juxtaposition. Anyway, I was dogging him, a
dogging NIDS about something and I got a disturbing email
(44:09):
from him, something about what's this about aliens eating people?
I was chasing down some rumors of nid's personnelity being
killed on the on the Skidwalker ranch, and boy, I
smacked the hornets and mess with that one. Did two
weeks of freaking damage control on that. And that's one
of the things that that happened Alexander, uh, you know,
(44:36):
gave fired off a very cryptic email. So I said, okay,
that's it. These guys are publishing papers, they're you know,
they're they're at least trying to look like they're you know,
they're trying to share data. So I contacted him and said, okay,
let's be friends. And they said, okay, good. You know,
(44:57):
we will pay for all your lab work, will pay
you your vets to go out and do the cropsies.
Here's here's our protocols, you know, spread them around to
your vetinarians. And so I got everybody on the same page,
five veterinarians to sign on to do nee crop season
and to do field work. And uh, I didn't have
(45:18):
a case for seven years.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
By just by coincidence or funny how that works.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Right, Yes, signing things not always the best idea. When
you're watching Skinwalker Ranch the show, and I pres I'm
assuming that you have seen seen the show.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
This last season. I haven't seen. But what do you
what do you.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
When you see because because some of the some of
the stuff does seem tantalizing very much.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
So I really admire Brandon and his guys. I think
it's a groundbreaking work they're doing. I think they're handcuffed
a little bit by the you know, by the format
that they're locked into there with the cliffhangers and all that,
(46:15):
and sure what looks like inforced drama, which they swear
up or down that it's not, but the way it's
that it did and stuff, it's.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Exactly yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Having having been I was associate producer on three of
the top five UFO documentaries of two thousand and twenty
two and three. I've been involved on front and of
the camera and behind the camera for many years. And
(46:49):
I know, I know how the game is played, and
I know how this stuff is done, and and these
guys to have these cameras around and and I just
admire that an ass and the fact that they're able
to do the quality of work that they're doing. I
think it's a it's really groundbreaking work. And I took
(47:10):
my hat to then. I'm I can't say I'm a
big fan. There's some things that you know, some things
I have problems with and and whatnot. And I think
that there's just some things that they could be doing
that they're not doing. But they're using UFO app software
(47:31):
and the core in their system, so I don't want
to bite the hand that well.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
For everyone everyone listening, what's an explain that the.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
UFO dat acquisition project is an effort that I've been
involved with going on fifteen years now. Where we When
I say we, I mean Ron oldsh my engineer who's
located in California. He is a computer scientist, inventor, software designer.
(48:02):
He's come up with targeting software that you can use
with pretty much any you know over the counter security camera.
And what it does is it identifies anomalous events. It
then locks onto it with a bounding box like targeting
software and a jet fighter and then it does motion
(48:24):
tracking so that you can use your camera as a
UFO detection device and record events. And you can plug
up to six cameras into it so you can triangulate
and with GPS which is onboard, you can you can
(48:44):
show where the object is in the environment on a map,
altitude speed. We have add ons like blaze gradings where
you can divide night time sightings the lights. You can
divide it up into light spectra, have a radio frequency
spectrum analyzer, magnetometers, gravitometers, that's multisensor for sure. Yeah, the
(49:08):
MSDAU unit's, the multi censor data acquisition units are pretty sophisticated.
The most sophisticated, I think in the in the civilian
sector where because we've gotten some exposure on Expedition X,
the Carolyn Corey movie are Tearing the Sky and also
(49:31):
the Skinwalker ranch is using our our most tracting software.
Because of that exposure, we've expanded around the planet. We're
on four continents, eighteen countries, twenty one states, I think
three or four Canadian provinces, we're in Finland, we're in
(49:52):
two or three in Italy and Germany and Switzerland and
Australia and New Zealand Brazil. So quietly the civilians, Yeah,
detection uh scenario because of the technology UH becoming more
(50:14):
and more affordable. For just hundreds of dollars, you can
have your own UFO detection set up. UH. That's pretty
customized for your particular location. We we don't just sell equipment,
we customize it for the particular use. So we're not
going to sell you a bunch of gear you don't need.
If you if you don't have exposure on the sides
(50:37):
of your place and you only have you know, one
view that looks out and that's where all the activity is.
You know, we're not going to try to sell your
stuff that's going to look behind you. And we don't
make any money. We don't mark up the the cost
of the gear. You conquer itself dollars. Yes, he has
over six years of work into helping the software. One
(51:00):
hundred thousand lines of code that they wrote. It's real
sophisticated and there is a bit of a learning curve.
But you know, we have a whole community online and
on discord and uh, we've got tons of of people
that are really now up to speed on how the
gear operates. And so we do have a lot of
(51:22):
I think a good level of quality of customer support.
And you know, we're shooting to possibly dovetail our efforts
with with other groups brand Ridge and made our folks.
You know, there's some talk maybe NASA might be interested
in They found out about us to a SCU Society for.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Scientific Coalition for UFO Studies.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
Yeah, there you go anyway. Robert Palace one of one
of our big supporters. We also have a partner called
UFO Data, which is the guys up at KUFOS in
Chicago and also Alexander went PhD. He's an optical guy.
I'm not sure you o s u Ohio State University
(52:14):
and they've they've offered to do any analysis of good
data that we are able to produce with the with
the gear, and they've said, hey, well we'll help you
analyze it. And it's you know, it's it's one thing
to have some software engineers and uh, you know, gumshoe
investigators analyzing your video. It's another thing to have an
(52:35):
optical physicist.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Honestly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:39):
But that but that network, that that that's building the
independent network then, you know, with the academic network. And now,
like you said, NASA is in widening its arms and
seemingly embracing some.
Speaker 3 (52:54):
Of this project or Abby low.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Right, and and it seems like y'all are kind of
keeping in touch one way or another. Kevinkanuoth from u
APX was just on last night. We were kind of
discussing this a little bit. An Arrow recently announced that
they are working towards a case management system for civilians
to report and I kind of thought that that seems
(53:21):
like that's a good thing, and yet maybe too much,
Maybe it's too much for the government to just suddenly
take on all these civilian cases that all these now
independent entities have been doing an are doing. Would be
better to use our tax payer money is really focus
on the military or you know, government property incidents.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Well, you know, you would think with all the multi
sensor data acquisition platforms at the military, I mean, nobody
ever talks about you know, the what is it? What's
our Well, the NSA is is one, but what's the
(54:11):
the group that is involved with taking care of all
our satellite data, the geospatial you would think that those
guys have if we're dealing with with with true aliens
coming from from outside of our closed system here, you
would think that they would have quite a bit of
data as well. And and one thing that I'm really
(54:35):
gratified to see is the now the new focus on USO,
so you know, and identified some merged objects of One
of my favorite UFO books of all time is Ivan
Sanderson's Invisible Residence, which is the whole book full of
USO sidings and the incredible figure that he proposed in
(54:56):
the book that over fifty percent of all UFO sidings
have to do with bodies of water. There's something I
think there's some evidence that the Navy is sitting on
that may indicate that we have other tenants in the
building that may exist, you know, in some of the
deeper ocean trenches, and there may be some sort of
(55:18):
civilization that's that's aquatic, at least where there where they're
either aquatic or below the thin lar basalt that's on
the ocean floor. That has always been something that I've
kind of felt intuitively there's something that is probably happening
(55:41):
also inside certain mountains. Countless supports in the San Louis
Valley of UFO is going directly into mountains and not
without any any real well, some some with doorways opening
up and closing, others without doorways opening and closing. So
there may be some and maybe some activity inside the
(56:03):
earth atitoo so subterranean. But I don't think it's by
accident that our very first intelligence organization in our in
our country's history was naval Intelligence, which was started in
the eighteen eighties. Maybe the Navy was seeing these things
going in and out of the oceans and that's why
(56:25):
they started naval intelligence. Well, to my knowledge, I've never
seen any mention of why naval intelligence was started so
long ago. I mean it predates it predates all the
other intelligence agencies by sixty seventy years.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Right, right, And we know that historically they've been reports
by sailors of what would otherwise described as UFOs. And
it's interesting too that there's this kind of this focus
leaning in that.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Direction you have.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
You know, w ziegel Meyer has written about this. Uh,
Darcy Weir released a documentary this past year, and Richard
Dolan's working on a book right now on USO cases.
And it's like, I kind of feel like the the
UFO research community is ahead of the arrow investigations.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
You know. It's like report that Stricklan came out with,
it's just I mean insulting UAP versus UFO thing. That's
a way of sweeping seventy years of lies and and
data under the rugs, so that nobody you know, oh,
well those are UFOs. We're dealing with the UAPs, you know, jeez,
(57:42):
stop sitting on your thumbs.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Well, hey, Chris, we are at the end. So I
just want to thank you so much for coming on.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah, no problem, And we were just getting started exactly.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
This is what I'm glad.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
I'm glad we had a good talk and maybe we
can do it in the future if you're if you're
open to.
Speaker 2 (58:03):
That, sure, Where uh where where where would you leave
us with? What thought would you leave us with?
Speaker 3 (58:11):
Well, again, I think it's important for everybody to be
proactive and be part of the solution, not a part
of the problem. Contact your congress people, tell them that
you support this new effort within the government for UFO
disclosure and for the government to come forward and finally
admit to the level of their involvement in this subject.
(58:32):
And you know, to just see and hear about biological
evidence and crash retrievals and and crash you know, material
dodict meted materials and that sort of thing in the
halls of Congress has just warms the cockles of my heart.
I never thought today. So we live in interesting times. Uh,
(58:57):
you know, just be safe out there.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yeah, I want to say to all the younger people
listening as well. You know, I'm kind of in between there,
so I understand what you're saying. But I do feel
like the younger generations there is a an expectation that we
should get disclosure today.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
It's and tomorrow, and people who've been around.
Speaker 1 (59:25):
For a while, you know, know that this takes a
long time.
Speaker 2 (59:27):
And the fact that you're saying that, the fact.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
That that that what you're seeing is different than what
we've experienced decades past, is a good sign. It's a
really good sign that that you're because when you get
burnt over and over again, it's not easy for one
to say, oh, this is a good thing. You know,
this is this is what we're making come. So a
(59:49):
last question, then, is this small D. Are we in
the small D disclosure?
Speaker 3 (59:55):
Yeah, we are. It's gonna it's gonna take a I
think a big D disclosure is going to have to
be some sort of press conference with the president, uh
maybe bringing out some sort of I think most of
the good, the good evidence, A lot of the stuff
is wrapped up in the private sector, beyond the reach
(01:00:19):
of the Freedom of Information Act. So I think we
need to break that wall of secrecy with the with
the proprietary companies that are holding I think most of
the good stuff, and that that would be the large
the big D disclosure. The very fact that we're going
to small D disclosure gives big D disclosure more of
(01:00:42):
a potential of actually occurring.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
All right, well here's the hoping. All right, Thank you
so much, Christopher. I really really appreciate.
Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
It to this guy. And if you can't do that,
keep your ears to the ground.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Yeah, or to the water. All right, So check out Stalking.
They heard his classic book. And yeah, so again, thank you, Christopher.
Have a good night, and thank you everyone for joining.
I love these I love these cases and I love
these topics. And again, this is why the cattle mutilation
topic is so interesting because it takes me in so
(01:01:18):
many different places. If you appreciate this conversation and all
the other kind of conversations that we have on the
Mystic Lounge channel here on YouTube, YouTube dot com slash
Mystic Lounge. Please follow on social media where you can
get show updates. On Instagram, it's at paranormal Now, on
threads at paranormal Now.
Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
I'm rarely on.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Next these days, but I might post something that would
be Paranormal underscore now. And I just started a couple
of accounts. I'm not sure which one I'm going to
keep on Blue Sky. So there's a coffee and UFOs
and Mystic Lounge on Blue Sky and in time I'll
figure out which one I'm going to use, but you
can look out for me there for updates, and as usual,
(01:02:01):
a friendly reminder that this broadcast is rebroadcast on the
UNEX Network eleven pm Pacific Time on Thursday's two am
Eastern time on Friday evenings here on the East Coast.
Until next time, everyone, peace and love and live in
the mystery. It's good to be in personally.
Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
I wish more of us would think of ourselves that way.
I don't have a problem with skeptics. It's de bunkers
that are on some other level that I don't understand.
(01:02:56):
Essentially an influence of a change in local gravity, saucer
shaped craft and they're hovering over the water.
Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Bluebook Special Report fourteenth. The better the quality of the sighting,
the more likely to be unexplainable,
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