Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
However you are and whenever you are, welcome back everyone
to coffee and UFOs. I'm Alan B. Smith, your most
grateful host. Tonight, I have a guest that I really
appreciate having on. He's been on the old podcast in
the past. He's now here with us for coffee and
UFOs and that is one of the pre eminent researchers
(00:35):
and investigators into the nineteen forty seven Roswell UFO crash.
His name is Donald R. Schmidt. Will be speaking to
Don in just a moment. As a friendly reminder. This
podcast is broadcast on the on Ex network every Thursday
eleven pm Pacific time, two am Eastern Friday mornings, and
(00:57):
of course the podcast is posted where ever you listen
to your podcast. If you enjoy this episode, if you
enjoy past episodes, I really appreciate you jumping on any
of those platforms giving us a good review, sharing your thoughts.
I really appreciate it. We continue to grow. We've got
some really really cool guests coming up this season. One
in particular doctor Helene Powell. It will be coming on
(01:20):
in March. And yeah, that's maybe a little bit out there,
but there is there is a relationship to you know,
psychic and consciousness side to the UFO phenomena. Can't we
can't ignore the tertiary aspects of this, even if it
might be borderlines supernatural. And then of course we have
(01:43):
you know, traditional you folowgists, more nuts and bolts on
the program as well, like Kevin Kanuth, and so we
tackle all spectrums here. Now tonight is definitely going to
be more of a historical approach. And last week we
did Aztech UFO. This week we're doing Roswell, So it's
kind of a mini back to back series here. I
(02:03):
think these are really important events to revisit, and I
know that in this day and age, it's really really exciting.
There is something dropped in the news pretty much every week,
you know, whether it's Jack Berber, another whistleblower, you know,
David Grush and what have you. There's just so much
to keep up with. I think sometimes we really forget
(02:27):
to look back at these past cases. And this Roswell
case is and will always be, whether we get disclosure
or not, the most important UFO case in history. So
let's get down to it with our guest Don Schmid. Don,
welcome back.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
How are you good to see you again, Alan, and
you won't get in the argument with me. We often
refer to Roswell as the granddaddy of all UFO case.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
It is the big one, and I think people forget
that when you're studying the past, you're better informed to
handle the future. The present day.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I could not agree more, And in fact, it's one
of my pet peeves with many of the people coming
into the field nowadays, that they have no historic background,
they have no historic foundation of what they base their
their present ideology, their their very opinion on the subject. Yes,
(03:25):
And the wonderful thing about as doctor Heinik, my former
scientific director, would often say, is that the oldies were
the goodies in the sense that the skies were much
more pristine. Back in the earlier days. There were no drones,
(03:46):
There were very few private pilots in the skies that
were flying without transponders and could not be accounted for
that time. There were no good goodyear blimps or or
any thing else that would impersonate something of an unknown origin,
so to speak. The Skuys were rather, you know, virgin
(04:09):
in the sense that jet propulsion was in its infancy,
rockets were first being tested and as a result, when
people were describing things, especially during that summer that first flapped,
that first wave of nineteen forty seven, of craft that
(04:30):
were devoid of any wings or tail sections propulsion sound,
that it was something truly unusual that when a witness
something that was that much beyond our own technical advancement
(04:52):
at that time, even post World War Two, it was
a reason to stop and pause and ask what are
we dealing with here? Because and also keeping in mind
that the Orson Wells H. G. Wells broadcast of War
the Worlds was just nine years earlier, and so this
(05:15):
tool was very fresh in their memories. And as a result,
I think a lot of people came away first believing
that it had to be our technology. I mean, my god,
we had just, you know, unleashed the most tremendous weapon
(05:36):
known the man at that time, with the atomic bomb
just two years before, and where was it tested, no
less but New Mexico. And then you have this, you
have the whether or not Rosso Army Airfield puts out
that most famous press release that they had actually captured
of lying saucer and other words, the first atomic bomb
(05:59):
squadron in the world, which was headquartered at ro at
that time actually would claim we got one right.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, I have to tell you that as a volunteer
move On field investigator in New York, I almost wish
I knew what it was like to be a moof
on investigator twenty plus years ago, because some of the
descriptions of the objects that we get twenty plus years
ago would truly be anomalist. But now I have to
put them in that that could be a drone basket,
(06:30):
And it's really frustrating because you just you just don't know,
and someone could truly be looking at a UFO from
a distance, but you wouldn't know the difference. It's it's tough,
but we do have a lot of technology now and
sensor systems that are assisting in this. You know, even
in with like mofon, you have the Madar, you know,
(06:52):
which is a tracking system so you can kind of
see if hey, did anyone else track any electric electromagnetic
anomalies in this? You know, there are other ways to
try to go about and figure out what's going on
here very quickly. I do want to tell the audience
I received some feedback about last week's episode. There was
some audio issues I cleaned up that audio file. So
(07:16):
if you were listening to the podcast, I cleaned that up,
so you can just refresh for feed and you have
a much cleaner version of that audio. And quickly, Donald,
let me just read your bio here for anyone who
just isn't too familiar. So Donald R. Schmidt is a
former special investigator of the late doctor J. Allen Heinich,
who was the scientific consultant to the Air Force Project Bluebook.
(07:39):
After Heinick founded the Center of for UFO Studies in Chicago,
Schmidt would become his director of Special Investigations and served
on the board of directors for ten years. A seven
time best selling author, his first book, UFO Crash at
Roswell was made into the Golden Globe nominated Best Picture
(08:00):
of Roswell. He is also a co founder of the
International UFO Museum and Research Center at Roswell, New Mexico,
and co founded the International Coalition on Extraterrestrial Research. You
are all things ET and UFOs, all right, So tonight's theme,
if we will, Don, is I want to flip the
(08:21):
script on the bunkers. So very briefly, can you sum
up the elevator pitch version of what happened in nineteen
forty seven.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well as I had originally described that. In summer nineteen
forty seven, just south of town, the Roser Army Airfield
was the headquarters of the Fible ninth Bombwing, first atomic
bomb squadron in the world. They were the elite within
the military at that time. They were the best officers,
(08:59):
best islands crew, doctors, nurses, all hand picked and then
all placed in that composite squadron in charge of the
atomic bomb. None like them in the world. And they
all happen to be there at the time of this
(09:19):
crash of this craft of unknown origin, about sixty five
miles northwest of Roswell, and it happened to be over
a fourth of July holiday weekend, when most of the
base personnel or home on leave with their families. Skies
are clear, nothing's been reported missing, nothing is being tested.
(09:40):
So what does this represent? A ranch foreman by the
name of W. W. Brazo would report a debris field
of the strangest material that covered an area of almost
a mile long. He would report it to the county
share of George Wilcox They're in Roswell, who in turn
than notified the military. Well, it was the very base commander.
(10:05):
So just imagine it's a holiday weekend and it's important
enough that they alert the base commander himself that we
have a crash and the material we can't identify. We've
never seen anything like this before. So instead of just
humoring a rancher and sending out a couple of enlisted men,
(10:30):
Colonel Blanchard sends out his two lead intelligence officers, Major
Jesse Marcel and the head of counter Intelligence Ceice Captain
Sheridan Cabot, to go and investigate. The Next day, they
would load up two entire vehicles of the wreckage. They
would contain as much of the remaining material as they could.
(10:54):
They arrived back at the base first thing Tuesday morning,
July eighth, and at noon they put out that famous
press release when I say they the Razu Army airfield again,
the people in charge of the atomic bomb announced that
they had captured a flying saucer. Well, to get ahead
(11:17):
of the skeptics, right here, they are the ones who
made that claim. I'm not making it. My original partner,
Kevin Randall, didn't make it. We were skeptics. We went
down in New Mexico thinking we would wrap this up
in a single weekend. And then you actually start speaking
(11:40):
with the first tan witnesses who held that exotic wreckage,
whether military or civilian, and they're all reading from the
same script, they're describing it identically, and you realize there's
nothing conventional about this, and we need to get back
down here as possible. And so it became not only
(12:05):
a race with the undertaker, as we would describe it,
because the attrition rate. It was forty years after the incident,
and we had a lot to make up when we
already had lost a good number of the principal witnesses
had passed on. And so the more we dug into this,
(12:26):
the more we realized that not only was this one
of the biggest cover ups of all time, but we
were also potentially dealing with the biggest story of the millennium,
biggest story in the last thousand years. And so we found,
(12:47):
especially within the officers, they were the most reluctant to
speak to us. They were the ones who were, you know,
had the most to lose. They had taken oaths of secrecy,
they had pensions, steak, they you know, the other benefits,
and as a result they'd be breaking that security oath.
(13:08):
But it all stemmed back to that first primary witness,
Major Jesse Marcel, the head of intelligence of the Fible
Night Bomb Wing, the lead intelligence officer in the United
States military, who would become the patsy who was deposed
(13:29):
with the weather balloon, which would become the then second
explanation to what.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
And he wasn't he in charge of the security too,
of including nuclear capabilities as well?
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yes, you are.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
I mean, that's that's like a very serious position.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
He would write the briefing paper for then President Truman
as far as when the will be a Union detonated
their first atomic bomb in August of nineteen fifty nine,
so two years after Roswell where he was the fall guy.
(14:11):
He's ordered to pose with the balloon. And you know
that made the look as though he couldn't tell the
difference of off the shelf material of neopreme rubber and
a radar reflector kite of foil, wooden sticks, string and
tape off the shelf material any five year old would recognize.
(14:31):
And here he's in charge of the atomic bomb and
he's not demoted for it. He goes on and he
works at the Pentagon and he writes up that report
for the president, and so there's a we were starting
to observe too, there was a lot of inconsistency in
the official reaction to what it transpired. We saw that
(14:58):
the officers involved would be promoted. Ye, Colonel Blanchard, the
base commander, he goes on to become a four star
general by the age of fifty. I mean, he's just
made the biggest blunder in military history claiming that a
weather balloon was a flying saucer and those were That
(15:23):
was the reprisal that he was subjected to Marcel as
I described, you know, he goes on writes to report
for the president, and on and on and on and
then in as far as to the contrary, all the
civilians involved were physically mishandled. They were kidnapped, they were abused,
(15:44):
they were intimidated, they were threatened because being non military,
you just can't order them. They had to strong arm them.
They had to make sure that these people would not
speak out a line, and they also maintain the party line,
so to speak, that it was explained the way as
(16:05):
a weather balloon device, and that they all had to
be on the same page.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Let me we play this just to give people some
contacts to some people have never heard this before. This
is a radio broadcast around the time this.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Happened, ABC broadcast right.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Safe in Sick everybody that's it.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
In July seven yam.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
The Air Force has been applying this has been found
and there's now in the possession of the office Thursday
that sometime last week has.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Been infected at Ull, New Mexico, and then to right Field,
Ohio for further now.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Later in the broadcasts we do hear them quote Remy
having changed it to I think it might be something
like a kite.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yes, those lines. And General Roger Ramie was Colonel Blanchard's boss.
He was the head of the eighth Air Force, which
oversaw the five All ninth bomb wing at Roswell. Ramie
was at Carswell Army Airfield in port Worth and after
(17:20):
Roswell had put out the press release, Ramie want to
have a press conference. We're gonna actually show the media
the pieces of the flying saucer. But we're not gonna
do it in Roswell. We're gonna do it from my office.
So Major Marcel was ordered onto a B twenty nine
bomber called Dave's dream. They arrived in fort Worth and
(17:43):
Marcel would take a box of the actual wreckage and
place it down on the General's desk. Well, Ramie takes
him to a map room, and when they return, Marcel
was shocked to see that the wreckage is gone and
in his place, scattered on the floor in front of
(18:04):
the General's desk is this clump of rotting, smelling neoprene
rubber the balloon and he shredded radar reflector, kite, foil sticks,
string and tape. Now there's a hallway of reporters waiting
to see the just a rye flying saucer wreckage. Well,
(18:26):
General Ramy would only allow one reporter into the room,
and that was James B. Johnson of the fort Worth
Star Telegram. And Marcel is ordered to crouch down and
he poses for two pictures. He holds up a section
of the radar kite and end of story.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Don you know what that reminds me of?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
It?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Runsi the Arrow Historical report. When they had the closed
press briefing the day I think it was the day
earlier that day before the report came out. So that
they can control the narrative.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Of these and especially back in forty seven where the
military walked on water was World War two and they
were the final word and that's all it would take.
But as you were absolutely correct, Allen, they needed to
control the narrative, and it was it was high risk
in the sense that well, first you claimed you captured
(19:24):
something that extraordinary, and here you're reeling it back and claiming, oh, sorry,
it's nothing more than a weather balloon.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
We quickly quickly to that point. I think one of
the big contentious arguments there is the fact that, oh,
they wouldn't they confuse the materials? Now? I remember there
was an old UFO Hunter's episode where they had like
Jesse Marcel and.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Earl full Forford.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yeah, look at random pieces of metal and said, hey,
what does this remind you of? Does this remind you
of the metal that you handled? And neoprene seemed to
be pretty darn close. So from your research, what is
the likelihood that something at that time could have crashed
with that amount of neoprene or something that they might
have confused.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Well, the closest thing to the neoprene that any one
of the witnesses described was a black bake light, almost
like a hard plastic that was described, you know, amongst
the wreckage. But what Fulford, who was part of a
follow up clean up, detailed, described that he was on
(20:37):
all fours, hands and knees, and he had a like
a knapsack draped over his shoulder, and he was grabbing
pieces of this foil like material and he would he
would crunch it in his hand as he would you know,
grab it, and he would toss it into that sack,
(20:59):
and he would describe how he could feel it as
it was opening up, as the pieces were returning back
to their original shape, and they would start poking him
in the back. So he was giving us a great
visual of what he personally experienced.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So that really doesn't track with Neopren.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Then no, no, no no. And whether it was Fulford
or Brazzle, the rancher, his son Bill, Bill's wife Shirley,
whether it was the sheriff and the deputies, whether it
was the fire department, whether it was all the other
men who were involved, like Robert E. Smitheant Robert Smith
(21:44):
and talking about how a sergeant walked up to him
and out of his shirt pocket pull out a piece
that was about his biggest palm of his hand and
he says, you never seen anything like this before, and
he's watching how no matter how often he would grip
it and crunch it in his hand, every time he
(22:06):
would release his grip, it would just flow like water
between his hands.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Right now, that's an interesting description. Also, I do know
maybe I'm wrong here, but my experience with anything neoprene,
if you sqush it and scrunch it enough, it can
leave creases even if it goes back to its original
form essentially, but could still be little creases and folds visible, right.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
And neoprene hardly would. As Marcel describe how engineers back
at the base took a sixteen pound sledge hammer and
they proceeded to pound on a section of this and
not even a scratch. And see, they had a hard
time discerning whether and they would describe it that it
(22:53):
was either metal like or plastic like, that it had
qualities and it resembled one or the other, but it
was still something beyond that. It was still something that
they couldn't, you know, specifically say it was metal because
(23:14):
it resembled our own medals as we knew them.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Right, So these are all what we call, you know,
we've always referred to them as witnesses. Do you consider
Jesse Marcel, for instance, a whistleblower.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Or witness a whistle blower?
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
In fact, when we worked with the late Congressman Stephen
Schiff of New Mexico and we were pushing for and
this would have been in the early nineteen nineties, and
we were pushing for congressional hearings on Roswell, and he
was trying to get the cooperation at that time of
the Secretary of Defense, who was less aspen. And that
(23:55):
was when the General Counting Office as it was known
back then, the GEO Congress's own investigative organization, did a
systematic search of documents through all branches of the military
as well as departments of intelligence. Any document, anything pertained
to the incident at all was to be as far
(24:19):
as turned over to the GOO for congressional review. Now,
the Air Force's report on Project Mogul, same balloon device,
but it was part of a top secret Russian spy program,
and they had that press conference that was Colonel Richard
Weaver in September of nineteen ninety four, and that report
(24:44):
and the secondary report was over seven hundred pages long.
Whereas the GOOS report on Roswell was a mere twenty
seven pages because nobody could find anything anything, so they
just they claim in total ignorance on any aspect of
the case.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Sure, and we've heard before, oh we have a procedure
of you know, removing files or deleting files.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Or whatever would potentially threat national security. We're not at
liberty to disclose. But the point being, Alan, we had
over one hundred first hand witnesses alive with us at
that time. They would have all been whistleblowers. You mentioned
(25:31):
David Grush, who I've met with, who I've talked with.
He's not a whistle blower by the true definition of
that term, because he is not firsthand.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Right, But Jack Berber would be right.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Jack Berber would be So we have raised the ante
and that's wonderful and multiply that will spawn other firsthand
That's what it's going to take. But my biggest regret
is that we could have provided them with an entire litany,
the entire as far as court room, full of firsthand
(26:08):
and now they're all gone. Now they're all gone.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
You know, it would have been amazing if if in
the eighties or early nineties you had something you know
like that where you could bring everybody into the same
space and testify that that would have been we tried.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, well, won't happen here today. So but but I'm
sure all of them are smiling down and they're going well.
At least Roswell remains on the table, whether it has
been in discussions with Congressman Burshett or Growthman. I've had
(26:48):
good meetings and good discussions as far as with Loue
Alzando about this, and no one is telling me it
didn't happen. Even Don Trump Junior has brought Roswell up
on numerous occasions, even to his father where his dad,
(27:08):
the President, has made comments about Roswell. And we know
before that that Bill Clinton has made positive comments about Roswell.
So and as much as they try to put that
genie back in the bottle, it refuses to go away.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Well, I'm glad to hear that the likes of Louiel
Zuondo are reaching out and you know, having conversation with you,
because because that's important. It's that it's too big of
a topic of a history for any small group of
people to handle on their own. If you need the.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Collective, absolutely, and it is the one case that could
blow this open overnight.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Sure, I mean we're here, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Because that's what also frustrates me is that, you know,
during any of these hearings where they talk of documents,
maybe they talk about photographs, maybe they talk about gun
camera footage, they talk about film. Well, why don't we
go back to you know, the movie Independence Day where
the President basically says, show me the bodies, show me
(28:16):
the records. You know, that's all I would take. That's
what I you know, I went over and over with
with as far as as far as Congressman growth been about.
All you have to do is ask to see the
physical evidence, and Roswell is the one case that can provide.
Everything else is very fleeting. Now you see it, now
(28:38):
you don't, But Roswell, you're talking about something we took
possession of.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Right, Let's quickly go back to that history so we
can connect what we see in the news now with
reports related to Roswell and other UFO reports such as
egg shaped craft, which is really interesting. So can you
(29:06):
parse this out? What do we think the actual shape
of the craft was that crashed at Roswell or Corona.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
The witnesses at that time of the general phenomena. We're
describing domed discs, but just as often they were describing
craft the shape of a the heel of a shoe,
the famous William Rhodes photographs, or Phoenix for example, there
(29:37):
are two shots and it was the heel of a shoe,
that type of thing. Because the craft at Roswell had
it was a midair explosion. Even Major Marcel when they
first arrived at the scene of the crash the debris field,
(29:58):
he would say that their immediate impression was not only
my god, there's so much wreckage, but based on the
pattern and the fact that it covered an area so
extensively that it was a mid air detonation, that whatever
caused it to break up, that it rained debris. It
(30:21):
wasn't a point of impact, it was where it just
showered the area with wreckage as it had this malfunction,
this explosure. So I don't think they were ever able
to piece together enough to come up with the actual shape.
But then the main impact point just thirty five miles
(30:47):
north of Roswell. The briefield is sixty five miles northwest
of town. The impact point where they would recover the
remains of the craft and the through the bodies. It
was like a pod, a capsule size of a Volkswagen Beetle.
(31:10):
We had numerous men say that it was the size
of a small car and all described it as egg shaped. Interesting,
so that was back in forty seven egg shaped. Now
that doesn't mean that the original craft was egg shaped,
but at least that portion of it.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
That's a good point. That's a good You shouldn't we
shouldn't dremp to conclusions, right, So are we talking about
a collision in the air.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
No, No, No, there was, as we have confirmed with the
Stallion Weather Network lookout site. We had the documents and
as the ranchers had described that, there was a severe
lightning storm that very evening that came off of the
southern tip of the Capitan Mountains. It's the beginning of
(32:03):
the monsoon season through New Mexico, where you can get
torrential rains. You can get six inches the rain in
one pasture on a ranch and then therea drop just
a half a mile away. That type of thing, wicked
thunder lightning storm that came up, and ranchers described that
(32:24):
between the thunderclaps they heard what sounded like an explosion.
So it's long been speculated, well, maybe it took a
direct hit from a bolt of lightning. It's high desert
where the lightning actually strikes the ground. There aren't you know,
(32:45):
it's it's it's open range, so there aren't any buildings,
There aren't any tall trees, and so it may have
been you know that that fatals you know, bolt of
lightning that may have caused this, but something that he's
a former radar engineer who worked with the CIA, and
(33:06):
he suggested to me, he says, don you need to
check out the radar systems through New Mexico at that time,
and because of the atomic bomb having been detonated just
two hours west of Roswell in June of nineteen forty five,
just two years before Roswell, before the crash, and then
(33:27):
the White Sands proving grounds just to the south of Trinity,
and you had all the testing of the captured German
B two rockets after World War Two. So White Sands
had the most powerful, most at the time sophisticated radar
system in the world of that time. And then you
(33:49):
had another system up at Kirkland Air Force Base. You
had another system in Roswell you had another system in
bonb New Mexico, in the central part of the state.
You had another system just to the east at Cannon
Airfield in Clovis, New Mexico. He said, Don checked the
sea where all of those radar lobes intersected, and we did,
(34:15):
and sure enough, they all intersected in that high desert
region of Lincoln County where this crash took place. Okay,
now let me quickly just point out because radar was
in its infancy at that time and it was unregulated,
that there was no control of the power, the frequencies
(34:39):
they were using, that there was no testing, no uh
a stop gap, you know, as far as and then
the idea that these different lobes would intersect and what
effect they may have on aircraft. So then we're talking
to pilots who talked about flying through the that area,
(35:01):
that it would jam their instruments, that it would have
a negative effect on their aircraft. So it's something new
we're looking into. We want to find out what the
different frequencies were from those respective radar systems, and then
let's put it in a lab, let's see what it does.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Presumable, you would think that the military has already researched this.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Right, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
So could there be some documents? Could there be something
out there?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
We would hope so, or at least at once we
are able to establish such inconsistencies with the radar systems
at that time, that then we would have ammunition that
we could even hit them legally. That this is what
we have determined. Now, what did you determine back at
(35:55):
the time of the incident? And the point is they
would have to be in even acknowledging such testing, because
why would they be required to do that if this
was merely a balloon.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
What I need is a portable version of that for
drones because people just fly drones all over the place indiscriminately,
and it's like, we need to get a handle on this,
like seriously.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And that's an excellent point, Allan, And I think maybe
that's what they are. They have been testing over the
last couple of months, especially Jersey where they lifted a
lot of the restrictions within just the last few months.
And Amazon is getting ready to use drones as far
(36:48):
as they're part of their delivery system, and so maybe
that's exactly what they've been looking into, and it's what
type of new restrictions they're going to have to extra
size as to uh, how this won't you know, create
new potential you know, disasters and accidents, and especially after
(37:11):
what just happened last evening again, yeah, that this like,
of course we clamp down even harder on such systems
in the future.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I mean, that's such a tragedy and it's it's horrible.
I just I just can't believe what we've what we
saw with our own eyes on video too.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Like a quick editorial comment, I just and for for
as often as I think any one of us have
flown into Reagan the idea that the military would be
sharing commercial airspace right right, And that's what now they're
asking that question what yeh, why? I mean, and it's
(37:55):
just one of their natural approaches. It's just a commercial flight.
Granted it was vectored into as far as it was
diverted to another run with, but nonetheless it's still commercial airspace.
And what is a military helicopter doing as far as
conducting a training exercise over a commercial base or airport.
(38:17):
I mean, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yes, that that that's that's that's a wrong. That should
not be the case. And makes it kind of wanted
did somebody go roge, did somebody get sick? Like you
almost don't want to believe that it would be so
disjunct and there was no you know, communication there and
the logistics so all over the place.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
And that's the thing Alan and and we were as
we were watching it last evening and we were all
glued to our television sets and it was one of
the things that came out very early that as the
tower was radoing the helicopter and trying to get them
to acknowledge that they saw the approaching commercial flight, the
(39:00):
American Eagle flight coming in and all at once there
was no response. And that was before the actual impact.
So did something happen? Did the pilot you know, haven't
did they black out? I mean, we don't know. Again,
we may never know, but the point being, why was
(39:24):
there a breakdown in communication just at the most crucial moment.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, And I know we're just we're just speculating because
you don't have any information yet. But you know, Dagger
in comments makes a good point like, hey, maybe it
was remotely done. Is that even a possibility?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Well, actually it is because it was just three months ago.
That the Army demonstrated, because the apaches are held headquartered
out of Langley, out of CIA headquarters, and that they
demonstrated just three months ago how they can remote fly
the Apache helicopters. So again rank speculation, but with somebody else,
(40:11):
that somebody was somebody was able to hack into the
system and that they take control of the I don't know.
I don't know. That's the investigator in me that is
always asking the questions that need to be asked.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Right, and that brings us back to the debunker thing,
you know, because I'm definitely hung up on this. What
good investigators do or researchers do is ask and ask
and ask and ask questions. Often the debunker presents a
potential explanation and then leaves it on the table. You know,
(40:47):
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Yeah, they become fixated on one answer, and it's like
what Stanton Frieban used to always say, don't bother me
with the facts. My mind is made up. And the
fact that here I am now thirty years of having
looked in the Roswell investigated Roswell. We've interviewed over six
hundred witnesses who were either directly or indirectly involved. We've
(41:13):
had now five archaeological digs at the crash site. We've
secured over now thirty deathbed confessions, all admissible in a
court of law. We have submitted, you know, dozens of
FOYA requests concerning Roswell and the people who were involved,
and yet were the debunkers. And so I was a skeptic.
(41:37):
So it's great to maintain a healthy skepticism on everything.
But what you've described, Alan are the scoffers the de bunkers.
You know this is the answer, because I say it is,
except that because I tell you it's the solution, without
having spoken to a single witness, without having ever been
(42:00):
into New Mexico, they have the file in at least
in their minds and their supporters. And I'm sorry, there's
nothing scientific about that whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Where are we with the alternative theory of a Russian
psyop operation? Because I know and any Jacobs, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah, her book on Area fifty one, and it was
an appendix that received more attention than the entire book
because she claimed that she had a whistleblower who had
worked at Area fifty one and that they had the
remains of the craft in Roswell and that it was
(42:48):
nothing more than a Horton Brother flying wing from Nazi
Germany that was recovered by the Soviet Union and with
the help of also captured doctor Death Joseph doctor Joseph Mengeley,
(43:11):
that they took thirteen year old children and mutated them
to appear alien in appearance and placed them on board
this flying wing crashed it in the central part of
New Mexico to make us believe that we were being attacked.
(43:31):
We were being invaded by beings from another planet. War
of the World's Part two, Well, it was ABC Nightline
who exposed who her source was. He was formerly with
the Atomic Energy Commission, and when they spoke to him,
(43:53):
he acknowledged that it was just an opinion on his part,
and he just kind of laughed at off and said, well,
I was just trying to help her sell some books.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
But so, so, how do you can you trust somebody
like that?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Well, not at all, because if we had a witness
like that, it would not he would not even be
a witness, nobody that we would cite or source on anything.
But then factually, something that we immediately demonstrated there was
only one prototype of a hort and brother Flying Wing
(44:27):
even recovered as presently at the Smithsonian Museum. And it's
constructed a tubular bicycle frame and varnished sheets of wood.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
It's like balsa wood, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
That's the extent of it. So but reinforced and water
proof would varnish. The Soviet Union never recovered any such prototype,
and again they were nothing but prototypes. These were still
all on the drawing board and most the diagrams, most
of the blueprints had all been destroyed by the Nazis
(45:05):
before the fall of Berlin. As far as doctor death
Joseph Mangle, he was not captured by the Russians. He
also liked many of the other Nazis they made. He
made it to South America and he even bragged about
the fact with pictures that he married a beautiful Argentinian
(45:27):
girl on the beach off of Argentina and he lived
out the rest of his life there.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Well, that's just astonishing, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
When you can't place your key figures at the scene
of the crime. I'm sorry, it's a non secular it's
a non starter. And I was asked about her again
just the other day. It's like I'm sorry. You know,
it doesn't even qualify as you know, any you know,
(45:58):
a solution to Roswell or even an alternative explanation, because
there's absolutely nothing about it that is accurate, factual, genuine,
or historic. Nothing.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Well, okay, so speaking of historic, I'm going to go
back to Earl Fulford for a moment. The Plains of
Santa Augustine. Apparently there was another debris field there or
is that a separate.
Speaker 2 (46:23):
Separate, separate incident, But again, nobody has spent more time
looking into not only all the archaeologists who were working
the plains of Santa Augustine, which is about two and
a half the three hours west of ros.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
As far seventy five miles away or something like that.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
Any of your audience ever saw the movie Contactdy Foster
that was filmed at the large array with all those
as far as the SETI program that's part of it.
Right there, the huge radar.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Dishes, there's like twenty eight radars.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Tracks that they are are able to maneuver and shift
them and point them in whatever direction necessary. But that
is just north of the Plains of Santa Augustine, and
we've been there many times as well, so we tracked
down every archaeologist, anyone and everyone who was working the
planes at that time, the famous Back Cave as it
(47:29):
was labeled as it was called by the archaeologists. We've
been there and what we have been able to determine
is that in nineteen forty five there was a plane
crash of a transport craft that had come down through
(47:49):
the planes at that time, had scattered wreckage and bodies
for miles and that a lot of the locals, the ranchers,
they came in afterwards and retrieve pieces of the wreckage
the aircraft for souvenirs. The area had been cordoned off
(48:11):
because of the bodies and the necessity to respectfully, you know,
gather the remains. And then, in conjunction with just to
the south the White Sands proving grounds, whenever they would
conduct a rocket launch from White Sands, they would go
(48:35):
into the planes area and evacuate. They would remove all
the ranchers and their families and put them up at
a hotel, a hotel in Socorro during the launch period,
so they weren't witnessed to any of the secret testing,
and so that all became part of the urban legend.
(48:56):
The crash of the airplane, evacuation by the ranchers, and
then that we discovered we've been to the site, there
was a radar tracking facility also out on the planes
in conjunction with the rocket launches, so the military was
always in and out and observed by the ranchers in
regards to that. So it became part of that legend
(49:20):
that contributed to the connection to Roswell, when in reality
there was no connection.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
So where does that leave you know Earl Fulford's testimony,
because you know he did describe a medal like in
that of what Jesse Marcel Major Marcela described.
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Well as I mentioned Earl and all the other men
who were involved the debris field that was the original
rancher ranch form and W. W. Brasl who reported the
find that it thereafter would take fifty to sixty troops
(50:06):
three full days around the clock to clean up that area.
We even tracked down the original drivers of the trucks,
who was who were transporting the wreckage back to the
base down in Roswell and then returning with another empty truck,
and Earle was on the tail end at that location.
(50:29):
In fact, if the UFO hunters that's where they took him, right, Okay,
they took him to that location, and that's where he
was able to describe on all fours with the gunnysack
and placing the wreckage into that bag.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
So but that so that was like, so do you
think he confused the two separate debris fields?
Speaker 2 (50:52):
Is that? No? No, it wasn't Earl. It was his
granddaughter who then.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Later ah, okay, okay, he was.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
The one, and because she was essentially inserting herself into
the story and so she tried to you know, draw
the the original connection and grandfather and and we had
talked to Earl how often, we were the ones who
arranged for him to come into Roswell, And then even
(51:24):
before he died, we talked to him yet one last time,
and he was so pleased that he was able to
come back to Roswell that one final you know opportunity
and then actually go out to the site and described
his own personal experience. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
I mean he seemed very sincere and his recall seemed
you know, quite intact.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
Yes, yes, And that's the thing I also always pointed
out Alan and the same the bunkers. They all was well,
you know, how can you trust the long term memory
of these these all these older people, that type of thing. Well,
for those of us who are old enough to remember
the Kennedy assassination, yeah, November twenty third or twenty second
(52:09):
of nineteen sixty three, the impact it had on us.
I can tell you comments that I overheard my parents
make at that time. I can describe the reaction when
I was in fourth grade in school, the nuns reeling
in portable television and to watch them crying as we
(52:32):
got the news of what had just transpired Dollan, Dallas,
and the point being we weren't in Daley Plaza. We
didn't witness this firsthand, but yet we will remember this
the rest of our lives. Samely, it can be said
about nine to eleven.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Oh, I remember, I remember exactly where I was when
I when I first heard the news. I was and
I was on my way to work. And then I
remember the employees that I can't remember their names, but
I can remember exactly the things that they said, and
did you know It's it's astounding, like certain certain memories
are really burned into your into your.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Brain, especially when it's something unique, something profound, something that
makes that you know that, you know that indelible imprint,
you know, on our very psyche, and the same it
can be said about the witnesses at Roswell that it
was something as mundane as a balloon. Yeah, I could
(53:34):
I could see that their memories would be very you know,
foggy and tainted as far as in their recall. But
because it was something, as Major Marcel would say, I
held it in my hands and it was not from
this earth. You're not going to forget that.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
No, no, oh, I have to ask you this. I know,
I've asked you again. So where where before? How many
bodies do we think were recovered?
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Based on all the eyewitness accounts, And there was even
a secondary body site about two and a half miles
east southeast of the debris field, along the same trajectory line,
and it was the rancher Braso in the company of
a number of children, including his son Vernon, a neighbor
ranch hand son by name of Sidney Wright, and then
(54:29):
Floyd and Loretta Proctor's son, Timothy the Proctor. And it
was Timothy who took his mother Loretta up to the
top of this bluff and all he would say is
this is where mac w W. Brazel. This is where
Mac found something else, and Brazo had already described to others,
(54:53):
including reporter Frank Joyce, finding bodies and that the stench
was horrible. There were two bodies found at that location,
and then at the impact site which we discussed earlier
with the egg shaped craft, there were two more bodies
located there and a survivor, a loan survivor, and that
(55:17):
as well. We have firsthand military as well as the civilian,
the police, a sheriff's department, the fire department, and even
the base personnel at the hospital who described the survivor.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
What is the most frustrating debunker effort against the case
for Roswell. We've already kind of talked about, you know,
Mogul and the kites and all that, but besides that,
what else can you think of? What recurs and you're like, gosh,
just let it go.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Well, the very fourth explanation which the Pentagon had this
growing dilemma and that we were coming up with, and
we were getting the testimonies of more military describing the bodies.
Now it's one thing to explain away. You know, the
strange material that you could claim was just something advanced,
(56:22):
something new that we were working on. But we were
talking about non human remains. Then how do you explain
that away? I mean, we didn't have a Joseph Bengalle,
and so they'd have to really come up with something,
you know, beyond the pale. Well, they came up with
the anthropomorphic wooden crash dummies, and it was Project Excelsior
(56:47):
and Project High Dive, which did not originate until nineteen
fifty two, five years after the incident. So then the
Pentagon came up with the new medical malady known as
time compression. You won't find it in a single medical
(57:07):
journal anywhere in the world, the idea that not only
as you get older do you start to confuse the years,
but also the decades. The worst problem for that is
and we quickly put out a press release to the Pentagon,
(57:28):
at least alerting them to the fact. Okay, you can
try to explain away all the bodies as being six
foot tall wooden crash dummies with plastic and metal hings,
limbs wearing jump suits and harnesses and parachutes and helmets.
None of our witnesses have described anything of that sort.
(57:52):
But we are also informing you that none of our
first had witnesses to the bodies were in New Mexico
in nineteen fifty two, and a point being that forty
seven we can historically establish as being the time of
the crash based on when they put out the press
(58:15):
release when it all happened.
Speaker 1 (58:17):
That's brilliant because they weren't even in this alternative you
know place that.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Okay, yeah, precisely, so.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
They couldn't possibly have confused the memory because they weren't there.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
They weren't there. They weren't there. But again, it doesn't matter.
Don't bother me with the facts.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
See Oh gosh, you must miss Stan Stan Fedan.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
Oh I do. I do. In fact, Alan in the
in the last two weeks before he died, he called me,
left messages on my answer machine three times. I don't,
but Stan, I saved them. I saved them. And so
every so often I play him back and Stan and
(59:01):
most aren't aware of the fact that in the last
few years of his life he had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Oh okay, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (59:11):
And he would always have me sit next to him
if we were to do a press conference or a
panel discussion, because I would mouth him answers, you know,
under my breath, and because we were you know, it
was It's not that we were covering it up. It's
like again, it was the most private of all ailments,
(59:35):
and we just didn't feel that the press or anyone
until Stan was ready had the need to know, so
to speak. But he would always slap me on my
knee under the table and go down. That's why I
love you. That's why I love you. And we were
we were very close, and I do miss him, just
as doctor Heinech. I don't think there's a day that
(59:56):
goes by that I don't think. Now what would Alan
say or what Alan do? And I feel the same
way about stand So I could not have had better friends,
better mentors, a better scientific director. And and and and
the fact that in many respects, I'm finishing what they
both started. And I'm just as committed as ever.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Yeah, and I'm grateful. I'm grateful you are don seriously Yeah, no, no,
I do appreciate you. I appreciate your work, I respect
your work, and I'm I do have one more question.
This is from much earlier, so I can't scroll up
and find it, but someone did want to know what
(01:00:41):
your work was like under doctor j Allen Heinech.
Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Again, I could not have had a better, you know,
example of just not only the methodology, but what the
requirement and were in establishing after eliminating all alternative conventional explanation,
then and only then would something be classified unidentified. And
(01:01:15):
it was sad in the sense that we would be
in the field, we'd be working together, and he would
often make the comment I'm an old man in a hurry.
I'm an old man in a hurry, and I don't
want to ever get to that point that I would
feel the pressure of the clock ticking. Time was running
out and I still needed to get so much of
(01:01:36):
it done. Alan was looking in the Roswell. He was
investigating Roswell. We weren't even aware of it until after
we would find files notes of interviews he was conducting
in New Mexico that we were not even aware of.
Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
So Heinich was taking it seriously in the.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Background, absolutely, And the whole notion of crash retrievals and
the late Leonard Stringfield, and the fact that Stringfield had
pretty much established the crash retrieval phenomenon in the late
nineteen seventies, and that as Heinich again as an old
(01:02:17):
man in a hurry, he saw that his best bet
was to establish that we had one, that we actually
had recovered the remains of a craft and crew. And
let me just end by telling a quick story that
Allen's private secretary was Jenny Zeidman. And Jenny was famous
(01:02:40):
not only in working with MW. Fhon and she was
the principal investigator of the Mansfield, Ohio incident, the coin
helicopter incident that happened in I believe it was October
of seventy three, Mansfield, Ohio. And Jenny also worked at
Bottel Institute, just down the road from Right Patterson Air
(01:03:02):
Force Base, where Project Blue Book was headquartered. Well, Alan
was with Jenny at an awards ceremony and all at
once Alan slides for a note we got one, and
Jenny slides a note back, who told you that? And
(01:03:24):
Alan slide's a note back a f Air force So
I think they're too. That generated a level of c
We're on the right track. They have one in their possession.
And whether it was Roswell or Aztec or something thereafter,
(01:03:49):
that I have from a very high source at the
Air Force that we are in possession of physical evidence,
and I think that compelled Heinich to you know, try to,
you know, get to the bottle of this while he
still had time, and he ran out of time. I'm
not gonna let myself. I'm not gonna allow myself to
(01:04:12):
run out of time. We're gonna finish this album.
Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
We're gonna finish this Donald, you have been on the
right track, and you're on the right track. And thank
you so much. I really appreciate you coming on tonight.
Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Let's do it again. We have so much more than
we can so much. Yeah, so I look forward to it.
Thank you, Alan.
Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Thanks okay, fantastic, All right, thanks quick Don. Where can
people find your work or more about you?
Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Well, all the books or at least all the recent
books are certainly at at borders, all find bookstores, and
certainly on Amazon. And then h our website was hacked
by a Chinese gambling site. So but but I know,
(01:04:55):
I know, But I'm mostly on on on Twitter, on Facebook,
Don forty seven on Twitter, on x and then on
Donald Raymond Schmidt on on Facebook. Perfect, and then I
respond to all inquiries and questions, and so I see
I'm very proactive also in reacting as far as the
(01:05:16):
people's questions and comments and suggestions so that the museum
and the museum don Ross.
Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
Yeah, that's a sojourn to New Mexico. Definitely worth it,
all right, Thanks, don have a good night.
Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Yeah, absolutely, my pleasure. So great to have Dona on.
Thank you guys for joining the chat. I really appreciate
your comments and questions. H If you have any questions
for me regarding the program, you can email me at
Mystic Underscore Lounge at aol dot com, or you can
go to social media Blue Sky It's Coffee and UFOs.
(01:05:52):
On the Instagram, it's Coffee and UFO's podcast. Same thing
for Threads and on x it's the old at Poweranormal Underscore. Now.
As always, I want to thank the ONEX Network for
rebroadcasting this podcast on the platform eleven pm Pacific time
on Thursdays to a m. Eastern on Fridays. Until next time. Everyone,
(01:06:17):
peace in love and I'll see on the flip side.
Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
It's good to be in personally. I wish more of
us would think of ourselves that way.
Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
I don't have a problem with skeptics. It's de bunkers
that are on some other level that I don't understand.
Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Essentially an inference of a change in local gravity. Saucer
shaped craft and they're hovering over the water.
Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
Bluebook Special Report fourteen. The better the quality of the sighting,
the more likely to be unexplainable,