CWK Show #819: Andor- "Harvest"

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is Ashley ex sign a Silkacano from Star Wars,
The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, and you're listening
to Coffee with Kenobi with Danz.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Hello friends, and welcome back to Coffee with Kenobi. This
is your weekly show where we look at episode. Well,
this is season two of Andrew. Have you heard of Ander?
I think you might like it. I think you might
like it so much that we're going to talk about it.
And as I have been saying for a few weeks now,
instead of looking at each of these four arcs by arc,

(05:46):
we're gonna look at them one episode at a time
because there's so much rich material heir there. This episode
is called Harvest. It is the third episode in season two,
and I am joined John Hile returns. John, Welcome back
to the show.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
Thanks very much, Dan, A pleasure to be here.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Awesome you Have you enjoyed your newfound fandom? Are you
able to go into local grocery stores and saloons without
any being bombarded?

Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well, I wear a disguise over my voice, but otherwise
I'm fine. It's not a problem so far.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Very smart.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Put on your COVID mask, you'll be safe.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
Time there you go. Bob Girard is back. Bob joins us, Bob,
welcome back. It's great to have you back on the show,
my friend.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Thanks, it's great to be here. And after being so
deeply emotionally invested in the show, it's nice to kind
of step back a little bit and go to a
wedding party episode.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yes, let's do that. Bob, of course, is the host
of Short Froy Stormtrooper, a fifteen minute Star Wars podcast,
which we talked about last week. Be sure to check
that out. And I'm sure you're having a very difficult
time keeping these things narrowed down to just fifteen minutes.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
We gave up Dan. We decided we're going to do
two episodes a week to cover each arc. So now
we're doing thirty minutes. We got ten minutes per show,
so you like kill killing it with the volume.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
But oh well, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
All good, it's all good.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
All right.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Well, let's talk about this. Harvest is the final episode
of this original arc for season two. Gentlemen, We're going
to do one word to kind of give overall reactions
and then this overall thoughts before we dive right in. John,
let's start with.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
You well, I must say I had a whole bunch
of words written down and I crossed out all of them,
but one I recognize. The one I'm going to say,
you know, could apply to a bunch of different episodes,
I suppose. But the word I settled on is sacrifice.
And I think this episode, you see it all over.

(07:54):
You see it with the wedding itself, with the tradition
and being upholded, but in a way your you know,
mom is there when you know it's almost a sacrificial
right of of the wedding in and of itself, you
have the sacrifice of friends. I mean, hey, that's a

(08:18):
sacrifice of of of a best friend. Brasso had end up,
we know what happened to him, gave his life in
this episode. The h I believe it's b LUs seeing
sint To now obviously for the first time in a
long time, displaying the sacrifice that goes along with being

(08:41):
a soldier in this rebellion. I just saw example after example.
So that's the word I ended up going with.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
That's great, that's a great that's a great start. Bob,
what about you?

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, that was a good one, John Dan, I think
this is a high finated word. Okay, you can decide
if you're going to mark this off on my let
me get my.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
I love that power play power play because I just
saw power play after power play and struggles for power
through this entire episode. We had a power struggle between
Mon and Lida in the dressing room. We had a
power struggle between pay and Mon with you know, is

(09:30):
he going to get the payoff? At the end, we
had an amazing, amazing power struggle between uh, Edie and
Dedra with Cyril in the middle, Uh, you know, huddled
on the bed. I don't know, like you said, how
he got his body into that position. I think that's
what Denise Goff said afterwards.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
The power struggle obviously between uh, between Bis and Kroll
at the end just you know, a very uncomfortable to watch,
but definitely one person trying to exert their power over
the other the other one.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
You know.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Coming back at that, I just saw all these power
plays back and forth, and that led to now I'm
going to kind of jump into my overall reaction is
you know, I think these first three episodes have just
been a gradual turning up of the temperature. It's been
just a delightful slow burn. And in this episode we're

(10:29):
seeing that temperature crank up. And I think when we
got to the final confrontation with with Cassian coming in
on the tie Avenger, we got the power, we got
the temperature up to full blast, and now we're ready
to go.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Interesting. Interesting. I like that as well. My word is isolation. Everybody.
Everybody's major arc in this is about being alone, about loneliness.
You know, Brasso ends up dying alone. Cassiing is trapped
in this tie for a while, and it isn't until
he gets this realization that he's got to go and
rescue his loved ones that he suddenly finds the will

(11:09):
to stop suffering by himself. Certainly, Bix is alone and
petrified for her life. Cyril and Dedra they form a unit.
This is the only time they feel like they're kind
of together, but there's still it's still him versus his mom,
and there's a great loneliness of that. Even with the

(11:30):
strength of Data, he still feels alone and more sad
than any of them. Maybe is mon Mathma. She is
the most alone of all them, so much so that
her family is a prison and she doesn't understand how
to navigate that, so she just doesn't. Yes, and it's aching,

(11:50):
It's there's a lot of ache. So I'm looking forward this.
I took a lot more notes than I usually do,
so I'm looking forward to jumping in. But why don't
we have, Bob, Why don't do you kick it off
for us? What's the first thing you'd like to discuss.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Well, let's start. I'll go a little bit chronologically because
my reaction and watching this again yesterday to that opening
sequence with Cassian in the tie Avenger by himself, that
just brought up I like the word isolation. Just to me,
it was horror. I have a natural phobia of the ocean.

(12:28):
I'm totally find if I'm on a cruise boat that's
totally cool. Any other contact with the ocean freaks me
the heck out. Contrast with my wife, who is an
open water swimmer and really good at it. H I
hate the ocean. So like, I just imagined him being
on a rowboat in the middle of the ocean, and
even more petrifying being out there in space and that isolation.

(12:50):
But then what was interesting is we come right off
of that to the dinner scene on me and a
raw with all of the farm workers gathered around the
table and having this amazing community. And what I notice
about Bix is when she does have the other people

(13:10):
around her, I don't think she's putting on a front.
I think that she genuinely is empowered, is happy. She
gets a lot of positive energy around having the people
around her. It's when she gets isolated, when she's asleep
at night, or when Cassiean is away or she's just

(13:30):
working by herself, that she starts getting down into her
own horror and the PTSD that she experienced and starts
kind of spiraling. But get her around people and she
picks up a little bit. And I think that's really
true of all of us for sure.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
And I look at it a little bit differently than
even when she's with everyone. I feel like that gives
her a temporary balm. But I think that I think
her pain is so deep that it's it's a very
it's it's a house of cards, right, it's it doesn't
it's not really much to it. And then everything kind

(14:11):
of crashes down him. But the Empire shows up, I
mean the panic on her face when Braso's right there
and the Empire is showing up and Braso is you know,
I can't think of the actor's name off the top
of my head, but he is like a professional wrestler,
size and even and his confidence, yes, does not give
her that peace of mind. I The only person I

(14:32):
think would have made a different for it would be
when Cassian was there. Yeah, but he wasn't he couldn't be. Yeah, yeah, fascinating.
Yeah that bix Is.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
She's an amazing character, an amazing she.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, Yeah, she's fantastic. John, what's the first one you
want to bring up? Unless you want to come on?

Speaker 3 (14:55):
This is? This is This is great because we're still
in chronological order, right. I wanted to stay early with
my first comment. And and the next very scene, as
I recall, is the scene between Mon and her daughter Lita.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
They're right outside the ceremony, they're in the ante room,
and it just was such a real scene, uh, in
two ways, one in the in the just as a
reminder that the theme of it was Mon telling her
you don't have to go through with this, that don't

(15:32):
worry about embarrassment, don't worry about gifts, don't worry about anything,
that all of that doesn't matter. The only thing that
matters is is this the right thing for you or not?
How many brides have heard those words, it's it's this
is not this is a universal theme. You know, just

(15:53):
because everybody's sitting here doesn't mean you have to do
this here. Of course, the meaning is so much stronger, though,
and deeper, because Mon never, as far as we know,
had any liking of this tradition in the first place.
She we know from the first season that that she

(16:15):
thought that was a thing of the past. She hates
what it did to her own life, and she was
never going to raise her daughter that way, clearly. And
yet you have this in a way indecent proposal last season,
and now here they are standing just outside the room,

(16:38):
and Lda's reaction is such is perfect for what these
characters are Leada obviously with the traditions, Pan's daughter more
than Mon's daughter in this way, and she looks at

(16:59):
Mon like she's nuts and is angry with her for
even suggesting that we're not going to go through with it.
I mean, she was in a way horrified at Mon's suggestion,
and Mon just snapped out of it. You could tell
she was a little angry. She's like you stand behind
me and Okay, we're going to do it then. But

(17:23):
it was to me such a powerful scene. Both of
the actresses in it were fantastic. It follows up and
I'll jump ahead just a little bit if I could, though,
with the initial dance between the newly married couple, there
was not even the hint of a smile between them,

(17:46):
nothing that would show you that they had any chemistry
with each other at all. And this is this is
a year after the suggestion of the marriage came up
in the first place, and so and so we can't
say they don't know each other, but they really don't,
and there's just no comfort level whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Do you think that Leida thought about it for a
second or do you think because I was wondering right
after Mom kind of gave this offer, like you could
back out now and it's fine. And we had just
heard in the last episode she was unhappy with her fiance.
He would have held her hand, and you know, her
expression was very blank, and I thought, just for a

(18:31):
split second that she might go ahead and take her
up on it. But then, ah, that line was so cold.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
Yeah, I agree with you. There was a nice little
beat where you don't know which way she's going to go.
But there wasn't.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
She didn't go that way at all.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
I thought she would at least concede to the fact
that this is I have to do it, but it's
so difficult. No, it was nothing like that.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
I don't think there's any part of her that possibly
could comprehend that. I don't think she had. I don't
think she thought about it one second. I think when
she looks at mon her mother, I think she thinks,
are you nuts? Yeah. I think she's been so dismissive
of her mother from the beginning that she life to

(19:18):
her is a superficiality. This is for actually the first
point I went to Bram too, so I'll just talk
about it here. And even to the point of the
ceremony where everything in this beautiful ornate room is just
gorgeous set. As we said last week, the sets are gorgeous,
the costumes are gorgeous, the staging is just beautiful. And

(19:39):
the only real thing in this room is like this
artificial grass. And so they walk onto this natural area
and it's this perfect circle and the in laws all
you know, the mom and dad from both families come
in together and they form this thing where they move
in this circle, but they're actually not moving anywhere. They
just go through the motions of doing it, which is

(20:00):
what this whole ceremony actually is. And they don't even
make eye contact, not really, there's no connection, just like
last week. But they have the dinner where they're actually
not eating anything. They're not actually celebrating this. It's a
ritual based on tradition that is not based on their family,

(20:21):
because their family is so fractured that there is nothing
to connect to it. And then when she talks, she
is the only real person in this scene, and when
she talks to her daughter and her daughter just I
think her daughter looks at her like a means to
an end, but not a mother daughter. And I think
the pain of mon Mathma here may be more unique

(20:43):
than anything we've seen in Star Wars. There is so
much ache, there's so much suffering, so much and it
makes me respect her her selfless nature to the level
of sainthood, because how anyone else psychologically would not be
able to handle it. I wouldn't be able to handle that.
And the fact that she's dismissed him and just turned
aside like that, I wish you were drunk while man

(21:06):
Mathma is pouring her heart trying to save her from
this empty marriage where Undoubtedly, and maybe this isn't fair
to say, but I think it's fair to speculate, Undoubtedly
this boy is not going to be faithful to his wife,
to his future bride who's who's you know, a teenager.

(21:27):
Undoubtedly this is just an amusement. And I think it's
it's just the whole thing. Like I said earlier, this
is a prison and it's so sad it is.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
And Mom comes into that whole conversation with the guilt
of having sold out her daughter, which I think goes
completely over Leda's head. Leada I think is she doesn't yeah, yeah,
not a factor, right, She just thinks her mom is
a heretic, and you know, she doesn't want to have
anything to do with her, so she's sat back in

(22:00):
her face. I didn't even think about until just this
moment what a risk Mon was taking on giving her
the opportunity to get off the hook, because what would
have happened had the wedding gotten called off? You know what, right,
what would Skaldon have done? Betrayed Mon ratted her out?

(22:20):
You know Tay would have spiraled off like it could
have basically put an end to the whole rebellion right
in that moment.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
That's a great point. The consequences weren't just as I
described with Mon describing it to her daughter, but they were.
They were so much bigger, and Mon was willing to
say it anyway, and really pushed this wasn't she was.
It wasn't just uh, you know, a one off remark.
She meant it and would have. I would have gotten
her daughter out of it if she could. Yeah, absolutely

(22:53):
the same. But as Dan said, maybe is what an
apropos word here?

Speaker 2 (22:59):
It really is not. I mean I and I know
you know, so I wasn't mean flipping all. I just
think that what she goes through is just as a parent,
you know, we're all parents. It's just it's it's not fair.
Nothing about Mon Mathma's life is fair. And yet she
carries on. Is that the second one that you're going

(23:20):
to bring up? Or was that the first we're gonna
bring up? Right?

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Is that was gonna be the first brought up? So
I'm all shut up now for a minute.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
No, please don't don't.

Speaker 4 (23:32):
No.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
I love that we all had the same kind of
initial thought to this thing, because it's it's it's just amazing. Well,
do you want to give us your second one to
just kind of give you a tabula rossa?

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Okay, I will. I will jump ahead a little bit
and and stay with the wedding party and focus for
a moment on Tay. And I mean, we all know
where this leads. But the the there's a scene in
which now they focus on Tay and he walks across

(24:06):
what will be the dance floor. This is before the
dance started, and he's obviously a little intoxicated, and because
he bumps into I think Luthen or whoever Luthen was
talking about, and so that's designed to show us that
he isn't you know, quite right, he's had a couple.

(24:26):
And then for just a moment, I thought he was
going to knock over the big artifact get because he
came close. He had to kind of skirt it a
little bit, right, a tremendous little touch. It wasn't really
in any danger, but my you know, uh, stomach tighten
there for a second. And then he talks to Mon

(24:50):
and you can tell he's it's it's realistic. Early intoxication. Right,
He isn't like cartoon blasted or anything like that. He's
knows he's in a big formal event, and he's keeping
it together. But he is blabbering on and he he

(25:15):
you know, is admiring you know, uh, what's his name again,
Groom's husband, groom's dad, old scolden, he's admiring him. And

(25:35):
and Mon's immediately kind of horrified and wants wants to
him to explain what he said. And you know, he
said he could be a lesson for all of us.
And he learns that every time I'm with him, take.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Up, stand up, make your point, that is what he says.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yes, And then I have to leave early, and and
and the already obviously Mon is on alert. She he
knows she has to have this meeting with him, like
next week or whatever, and clamp this down, give him
his number so that he shuts up and we're done.
But right there, in man's faith, you see that now

(26:15):
she knows for sure, She no longer suspects, She knows
for absolute sure that he's a threat, whether on purpose
or even through negligence, he is a threat, and he's
going to remain a threat. And it's a horrifying look

(26:35):
she has in her face, and as is the audience.
You know, there's just no redeeming him, not because he's evil,
but because he's in to him. He's in a situation
where he has to do something to restore his finances,

(26:56):
his reputation or whatever, and he just will He shifted
to worrying about himself and even perhaps accidentally at the
expense of his long best friend.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
And it just shows the great fragility and the vulnerability
of this rebellion that they're have together with Scotch tape, right,
and he could just blow it all the pieces because
he's upset about his own family and he just feels
like he's trying to hurt people, hurt people. He's trying
to make something happen because he has nothing happening, and

(27:34):
his drunkenness is the sign of that desperation, and it's
it could make everything fall apart.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yes, Yeah, he's just gotten so transparent, right, And you know,
I think up until then, mon could probably persuade herself
that he wasn't really shaking her down. But after this point,
there's just like to your point, John, right, you see
the look in her face there's no doubt in her
mind he's trying to get money out of her. He

(28:03):
is a threat. Everything can fall apart, you know.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
And they say, what's the numbers?

Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yes, what's the number?

Speaker 3 (28:09):
Is the definition of the word discretion. Last year he
was the ultimate poster boy of discretion and now that's gone.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yep. And again, how how can what? What is it
that she can hold on to? I mean, Luthen says
to when Lutheran conversation is an important aspect of this too,
because he says, would you have let me know? And
she said, of course I would. And then when he
insinuates that this man is going to be killed, she says,

(28:41):
I don't know what you mean, and he says, how
nice for you. Yeah, And that's a very subtle sign
because we don't know Luthan at all. Does anyone really
know Luthan? This isn't super easy for him either, but
he has to make the tough choices and he does
here and she can't. I want to. I really want

(29:02):
to talk about the dance. Yeah, I want to talk
about the dance, But Bob, you can feel free to
kick it off for us if you want.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
To about the wedding. Dance with the two of them.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
No, no, no, her celebration, her dances.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, let's jump there. Let's start
time jumping a little bit, yes, because.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Time is not a linear On coffee with Kenobi, I love.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
That, which is wonderful. So this is really funny. Is
on our little learning geeks chat. Jake texted me after
watching it and saying, I think that Mon's dance was
the best thing that Star Wars had ever done. And
then Dana came on and was like that episode they
could have cut about half of Mon's dancing. I think,

(29:49):
you know, it was like some people liked it, some
people didn't. I thought that her dance was kind of
it was beautiful, it was expressive, and it was just
so sad. It was just she really had kind of

(30:10):
hit rock bottom and like you were saying, just completely
socially isolated. And I do wonder was she thinking as
she like started grabbing shots and pounding them, Like did
she have the mindset of like, Okay, fine, I'm just
going to do what my mom did, right, she said

(30:31):
When she was talking to Leeda earlier, she was like,
you know, now, I know I kind of know why
my mom got drunk at my wedding, but she wasn't
going to do that. But now Mon's like everything is collapsed,
everything is blown up. I'm just going to go ahead
and do it. I'm gonna let myself go and get drunk.
And I thought that the I thought that the wedding
was great, the dance was great. I also just adored

(30:56):
the fact that they used the ne almost music from
season one, that you know, that techno song, which you know,
I think they kind of established a backstory that that
became a huge galactic hit and we heard it three
or four different times in different variations during season one.
Bringing that back, I thought was was a wonderful choice.

(31:19):
Not to mention the fact that that song is Namos.
Everybody was calling Niamos, which again is the place that's
where Cassian got caught in and justly prisoned and sent
to jail. So there's an interesting contrast between the elite
and thinking of Niamos as a party and how Cassian
must react to the idea of Namos, which is not

(31:41):
very positive.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
That that dance before we saw any episodes, that was
in the trailer, and everybody got all excited, and I
found myself initially being skeptical, I'm like, oh boy, here
we go something to latch onto that isn't necessarily full
of any meaning. But I've watched it when I first
watched him, like, Okay, there's something going on here. But

(32:04):
I had to think about it, so I watched it again,
and it occurred to me that this is, this is
the most broken and hurt she has ever felt, perhaps
that we have seen. And she continues to she is
a woman who is completely in control of herself. She

(32:25):
juggles secrets upon secrets. She's constantly playing chess when the
world is playing checkers, and she just doesn't falter from that.
And then at this point she's just like, I'm giving up,
Like I think it's the only time we see her
talk to her daughter's new mother in law, I think
the only time.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
And they down a couple of branks.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, So she does it, loses control and she dances
amongst all these strangers. She's not dancing with her daughter,
she's not dancing with her husband, who does take notice briefly,
she's dancing by herself on all these strangers and all
this opulence. And you know, alcohol is a depressant and
she's so sad because she doesn't have her family. She

(33:09):
is dancing in public in this prison of not her
own design, but it's her family's design, and her friend
is about to be killed. It's it's just so sad.
The songs so catchy. By the way, is so catchy,
and just the way there's something very beautiful and foot

(33:31):
about how she moves around, and it's almostly. She's got
those things underneath her arms. She's waving them around like
an octopus, and it's just it's just so beautifully done.
I think there's so much more to say about it.
I'm not being very eloquent, but it really struck me.
This prison that she's just untethered inside and she can't

(33:51):
do anything about it.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
What I wrote. I watched it a second time yesterday
and that's when I took my notes, and what I
wrote was dance it all away, because I think that's
what kind of what she was trying to do. Who
knows what's going to happen tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
And I don't think it worked, but that was the
that was given on.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
But this is all I can.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Do right now.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
I'm I will dance it all away. And and if
you brought up her her mother earlier. There's no way
her mother had any of the burdens. No, right, Yeah,
so anybody has had the right to have a couple
of drinks and check out on the dance floor for

(34:33):
a while.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's certainly her right because she's not someone who cuts loose.
It was just like a quick moment of I have
no control of this, might as well this is all
control altogether. Yeah, heartbreaking.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
It was interesting during that dance too. Aside from mom,
I noticed Leita was dancing with her girlfriends. Yeah, didn't
see her husband. You know, back to your earlier point
of there's no connection betwe beween the two of them,
It's true, they weren't even dancing together. So really interesting.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
And this is not related to anything that we're talking about,
but I just have to point out I love so
much that Star Wars manages to be futuristic and ancient
at the same time. And when Cassian was inside the tie,
when he was trapped at the beginning inside that tie
Avenger and he's wiring stuff and put it together and
trying to get fired up, what I kept thinking was

(35:27):
if I was in the mall in radio check in
nineteen eighty seven. This is what it would look like
if I bought a bunch of components. And there's something
so beautiful and Star warsy about that, and I just
love that.

Speaker 3 (35:40):
Yep, yeah, good point.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yeah, our tech today is way better than the tech
in Star Wars, which is great. So well, hey, can
I can I shift us to another social event? I mean,
because I feel like we could talk about the wedding
for eighteen more hours. Sure, let's talk about the little
dinner party with Dedra and Et and Cyril. And you

(36:05):
know I said, power play is my is my word.
I think this is the place where it comes out
the most. Just the absolute struggle between the three of
them on who is going to come out on top?
And Edie with just these amazing passive aggressive moves.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
A black belt. Yes right, let's be honest.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
We do, Yes, we do. But coming in with that,
you know, like I want spiced tea. You've never had
spiced tea? Oh you know? Okay, I'll go get it. No, no, don't,
I can change my mind. Yeah, Oh my gosh, such
a power play. The biggest one, though, was dripping the
space fondue all over the table, and no, I mean,

(36:57):
her knowing, she knows how tight and how o CD
cyrial is. We were reminded that again of the last
episode when he adjusted the fork just a little bit.
You know that was you know, and him tailoring his
uniform in season one and everything he's so ocd and
then for her just to do that just by I'm
slopping all this space gunk out on the table because.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
She nails lit'tle drive him crazy, because.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
She knows it'll drive him crazy, and it works. He
takes the bait, He takes the bait, he gets angry,
and then finally he just shuts down and retreats. Dedra meanwhile,
is just masterfully watching this. And when she chimes in
about her family, about you know, her family, she didn't

(37:41):
she wasn't raised by a family. She was an orphan.
She was raised in an imperial kinder block, And.

Speaker 3 (37:48):
Which is a great thing, is yeah, yeah, I love that,
fantastic Yeah, But you.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Know, I I saw some of the discourse on social
media around well, wait, it couldn't have been an imperial
kindred block, because you know, the Empire has only been
around for nineteen years, so that must have been that
she was a you know, she could only be like
twenty three years old if you do the math on that,
and uh and then you know the response to that was, well,

(38:18):
you know, technically it was probably a Republic kinder block,
but now we're just calling it imperial because we're shifted
everything from the right.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
It'll be fifteen years. It'd be fifteen years because this
is four years before the Battle of You happened, because
the first.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Season is yeah, right, it'd be fifteen years, right, So
that's possible. So it's possible. But here's the thing I
would like you to consider, gentlemen. Okay, is it possible
that that whole thing was just a story?

Speaker 2 (38:43):
But she made back in my mind just now, I
don't think so. I think she is she is fact
based oh old logic. Oh yeah, I think she's just
she is just putting it out there because she has
nothing the vision of effect. She's quite proud of where
she is and who she is. I mean, she's a
very she thinks very highly of herself and that's one

(39:05):
of the reasons why she's gotten as far as she has. Oh.
I think it's purely she's the only honest person in
that room.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
Well, and it is one opportunity to learn something about
her past, right, and maybe those you learned something about
her past. So if if you've turned that into a lie,
then we don't really know anything about Deadra at all
other than her behavior since we first met her. So
that if it is.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
A lie, then what happens afterwards doesn't mean anything. I
think it needs to be true to make the threat true.
Good point, That's just why I don't know. Yeah, I
think she thinks that she's is sp and nothing can
stop her. So why would she lie to this woman
that she clearly does not respect.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Unless she's playing games? Well that and that would she's
trying to do a power play. So guys, I ain't
saying I think that happened. I'm saying it's a cool
idea entertained in my head cannon.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yes, I like it. I like your head can. I
would buy merch for your head canon.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
The thing about it, I wonder if Dedra even for
a second, thinks she needs to do something like that.
I mean, this is I think she wants to.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
She's a take control.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
Person, right, but I'm already in control because I'm Dedra.
This edie thinks she has some power and then she
explains to her exactly why she does not, And so
I I don't know if Dedra would bother needing to
make something up to deal with this annoying mother.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
In law type.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
She wouldn't dignify it, right right, But who knows? It
is a cool idea.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
You know what I like about Edie. It is a
great idea. You know what I like about Edie. I
noticed this a lot the second time. When she eats,
there are two scenes where they really focus on her eating.
I mean a big deal earlier about eating together is important.
There this eating is fractured, which is so even the
mess that you talked about, Bob. But when she eats,

(41:10):
whether when she's stabbing the fondue or when she's like
biting stuff because they're not biting off the stick, you know,
I think that she's legitimately uncivilized, and you can tell
it by how she eats. She doesn't know how to
eat formally. She doesn't know how to raise her son
like this is just a sign a window into who
this person is. She's a slob and the way she

(41:33):
treats her son is her only way to try to
feel like she's superior because she has no self esteem,
and I think it's really on view here.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah. Yeah, she lives in the two thousand levels, so
of course not right. So that's right, you know, lower
middle class at best. Her stab in the cake to
cut it apart. Yeah, amazing, that's great.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
I was really struck by the level of detail there
of this is not this is not a civilized person,
This is a this is a slob. And she tries
to suppress her son, who clearly is not. I wonder he's.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
He's he's a criminal, right, at least alleged that. So
maybe she did have kind of a low life family.
Uncle Harlow, uncle she came from. Yeah, so nothing to
be proud of. That dead reminded her of its very interesting.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
It's fabulous, John. What's the next thing you want to
bring up?

Speaker 3 (42:36):
Well, you know, we need to jump around in time
and I'll just I'll just throw it out there. I
think we have to talk about it. And that's uh
uh the evil Lieutenant m hm. And and how that
scene played out it I have I may be missing something,

(43:01):
but I don't think there's ever been a scene in
either season of this show, and certainly no other Star
Wars show, let alone movie that approached the level of
outright mature theme scary as this.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
It's a you know, very very upsetting, very unsettling.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
It's right obvious attempt at a sexual assault. And then
Fix even said the words uttered the words in a
Star Wars show, he tried to rape me. I mean
that from the perspective of watching something in this genre
was just I mean, it was jarring for me to

(43:51):
hear her utter those words, even though they're completely true.
That it was this constant, not constant conscious decision in
the writing to kind of go there, and it really
really added something, of course, and made made you wonder

(44:12):
why Bigs is always the one getting picked on it.
Her life just keeps getting so much more horrifying. I'm
curious to hear what you guys thought about it.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
There is nothing sacred or sacrisying to the Empire. They
take over planets, they ruin environments, ecological systems, human beings,
taking away their hope, their will, their dignity, try to anyway,
And I agree it was this was so dark and

(44:46):
intense and very upsetting. And when I knew this part
was coming up the second time I watched it, I
was dreading it. I was completely dreading it. I was
struck by bigs fighting back, a fighting back, and the
fact that she is the person that fully takes care
of this person who, by the way, ends up dying

(45:08):
because of his own fall, even though the wound was
because of the fight that she's sustained when she fought back.
But it's just it's so alarming that they are not
pulling any punches with showing you the evilness of oppression
and the danger of taking away someone's freedom rights, because
this is the ultimate expression, the traumatic expression of taking

(45:30):
away someone's agency. And it's I agree, I it's it
does have to be talked about because it's very important,
but it's very jarring.

Speaker 3 (45:40):
And and we we're talking about Star Wars were in
the first movie any of us ever saw millions of
people died in an instant and exactly here is something
that is like a comic book, so personal. It is
the by far the most personal tragedy or a violin
les I think that we've seen.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
I agree, yeah, completely absolutely.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
I feel like through this entire series that Gilroy has
just been gradually raising the stakes on the evil of
the empire and bringing it more home. Because I was
thinking just like you were thinking, John, It's like in
Star Wars, we saw them wipe out, you know, millions

(46:26):
of people when they destroyed Aldron. But that's kind of
so abstract and so high level, and you kind of
can't get your arms around it. So and again, it's
in the context because you're feeling very the first time
you're watching Star Wars, you're feeling very you know, Saturday
morning cartoon serial, uh, comic book, ye evil, right, all

(46:46):
that kind of.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Stuff, and it'll last for two seconds. You don't know
anybody from Oldron.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
We know Bicks, right, yeah, right, we know Bicks exactly.
You're bringing it down to a personal level, characters that
you care about, you know, to that point. Uh, I
know that every time I see Aldron blow up now
and I think about I think about Bail and Bria

(47:10):
being on there, especially after feeling like I really got
to know them in Obi Wan Kenobi. You know, let
alone knowing Bail a little bit more from from this, uh,
the whole Rogue one thing, it hits a little bit harder,
but yeah, it's it's raising the stakes and it's weird
just seeing how vile the empire is and how the

(47:34):
attitude of the Empire, as represented by Kroll is if
you have something that I want, I have more power
than you, So I am going to take it from you.
And and so seeing bis you know quite ably, I
mean not not without a slug or two, but quite able.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
She does, right, Yeah, but then she doesn't give up.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
She doesn't give up, and you know, she stands for
herself at the end. And then woman distracts the other
guy and she's able to shoot him and basically end
the threat. That's just the whole story of the rebellion
in a little bit of a microcosm.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
So true. Yeah, that's this complete invasion of privacy in
this and even like he gets up in her face
and just they just take what they want. And it's
it's a it's a very scary mentality that, as you
both have said so well, really but really illuminates the

(48:37):
fact that this is this is not our our Star Wars.
This is not our kids. We would say our parents
star Wars. But are Star Wars all right? This is
so different? And so I guess you could ask yourself
that are we good with that? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (48:57):
And I think, yeah, I am. I feel it's the
Star Wars that I need right now to be honest.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
You know, it's it's taking. It's a very mature, sincere,
honest approach to oppression.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
It adds depth and it and cost one other little
side note I noticed that I thought was very interesting,
and I keep forgetting the evil lieutenant's name. What was
his name again, Croll? When we first see Kroll in
this episode, he arrives and it wasn't even Bix, wasn't

(49:37):
even the first woman he looked at for a moment.
The woman's girlfriend is she Tella? He looks at her
and her mom is like, get inside, do it now,
and don't argue with me, because there's an immediate realization

(50:00):
that he was looking at her inappropriately first. Yeah, so
it just added Yes, a complete predator, even though we
already saw him hitting on bicks. He arrives today and
that doesn't matter. Look who's here. Just again, whatever you
peasants have I and if I want it, I will

(50:22):
have it.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yep. Yeah, scary, scary, but well, I mean the threat
is taking care of in a frightening way like this
was an action scene that was didn't feel like an
action scene and felt like a fight for survival at
which it was and that, and that I think that

(50:45):
they have to if they want us to take this
entire series as heavy as meaning something more than just
a simple battle and fictional space.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
They absolutely made that point with this scene, with this
whole episode. Yeah, So so the next thing I want
to bring up, it's hard to transition out of that,
So we'll just I guess we're just going to do it.
We haven't even talked about casting yet.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Really, in his first three episodes, he's really not a
focal point, but the fact that he sort of springs
to life when he realizes his friends are in trouble
at the end of this episode, it's still not incredibly clear.
And again we're just gonna ignore the other things after
this one. It's still not incredibly clear that they're actually
that he's actually married to Bix or if she just

(51:34):
said that for protecting. There's clearly a very close bond
between them, the way they grieve over Braso and the embrace.
He clearly cares about her, she clearly cares about him.
I love that they did it this way. I'd love
that they did it this way because there's nothing maudeling
or mawkish about it. But there's just there's some real

(51:54):
there's just it's just some a lot of mature, realistic relationships.
And I really I really found the grounding of that
and a lack of melodrama, but an understanding of what
is actually going on. I find that so refreshing.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
I kind of pictured maybe they got married, like on
a balcony in that boo in secret and nobody knows,
like that's a scenario. But I had actually had that
to bring up last week. Dan is are they actually married?
You know? I don't know. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
I thought it was a cute little line and that
they weren't. But it doesn't matter one way or another.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
And I think it's cool that it could. They put
it out there while still respecting the audience to say,
this isn't about connecting some ABCD dots for the sake
of mythology, but rather to address the importance here telling
a story about love, loss and violation of the spirit.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
Weren't you pulling for Bix and Cassian in season one?
I was.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
I thought there was no chance because I thought he
was such a turtling. It was just hard to trust. Yeah,
in the first season at the.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
Beginning, but we we knew he was going to get
better because we kN what he was like help. Yeah,
so yeah, exactly, see, I'm playing by the rules.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Dan, you are you are? You were you were. I
know you're not a big letter great guy, but this
is You're getting to the A plus level. Bob. Is
there anything else you guys want to talk about, because
I'm ready to grade this thing, but I'm happy.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Yeah, there is one last thing I want to talk about,
which is sad to talk about, and that is just
the absolute depth of sadness at the end of this episode. Uh,
Brasso dying is just devastating. I mean, best guy in
the galaxy, and you know, for him to lose his life,

(53:55):
a lot of the reasons he lost his life was
because of Wilman's irresponsibility, you know, but he's he's still
there for his people. He's sacrificing himself for his people.
That is just very sad. But just the closing sequence
with the three of them, between will And and Bix

(54:16):
and Cassion on the tie Fighter and just there three
expressions of sadness and devastation, absolutely heartbreaking.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
And I wrote my notes, heart looks terrible.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
She just yes, yeah, yeah, I generally got up. Like
the first time I watched it, I was like, oh man,
that stinks. And then I watch it again and I
even knew it was going to happen. I knew how
it was going to happen. I knew when it was
going to happen, and affected me more than the second
time around, Like I generally got sad. And I think
it's because of the way all of the actors, all

(54:50):
the characters in this scene, the three of them, the
way they react is the four of them were essential
to the finale of season one, and and I think
it just hit me like how sad. I just was
very sad, very impactful. They're losing their friends, they're losing
their loved ones because of this empire. Listening to coffee

(55:12):
with Knoby, you are with dan Z the podcast you're
looking for, this is John. I think you want to
add before we give our.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Letter grades, nothing further. I think we covered it all.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
Right, I did too well. Who would like to start?
Who wants to give a letter grade for this thing?

Speaker 3 (55:37):
I went, I will. I think I've given two A
minuses so far, and I'll give this an A. I
think we've said it all. It packs so much into
this episode of very deep, important plot lines and feelings

(56:00):
in look where we are at the end of at
the end of this first story, and so yes, I
don't need to say too much more about it, but
it was definitely an A.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
Bob, I'm going to go with an A two in
the context of from one to two to three. I
forgot what I gave episode two. Did I say A minus?

Speaker 2 (56:22):
I think either I think or B plus.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
We all know this one is just a notch better
than two, I feel like because again it's that kind
of the completion of Tony Gilroy turning up the temperature
on the story, and so I like it just a
little bit better than last time. So I think it's
I think I'm just going to say a A.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
I I've given this an A plus. This is a
This is a genius story, and I think every episode
I acquate it to a microscope where every episode you
dial a little bit closer and focus on is a
little bit closer to the inside of these people at
what make them tick. The way they balance these different

(57:04):
story arcs give them all equal weight and gravitas for
very different reasons. No one gets short changed. They pack
an emotional punch that is not cheapened by the idea
of it being taken place in the fictional universe, but
instead amplifying and in turning up the ante as you've

(57:28):
been alluding to, Bob, and to such a degree that
you can't avoid the real messages that are going on
beneath the sequence of fiction. And it is. It's a
master class in storytelling. And I think this is the
best of the first three by Bard. And maybe some
of that is the fact that it's a deal with
those annoying rebels on yappin that couldn't get along. That

(57:51):
could be part of it.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Yeah, so, Dan, let me ask you this in terms
of grades. Yeah, so you know, in the video game industry,
I worked for a short while in certain video games,
you get a letter grade on your performance on something,
and you know, you get D C B A. Sure
there's S above, like S is even better. Uh No,

(58:15):
it's stupendous. I think, Oh, I think it might come
from Japan. I don't know, but you could get higher
than an A, which is an S, Like is it
possible for us to get into S theoretically speaking?

Speaker 2 (58:29):
I can't. I can't.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
We can call it superlative.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
We certainly do that that that is something that at
least in Illinois, they only do that until about second
or third grade. Okay, not saying that's right. I'm in California,
So yeah, do they do it? Can you get an s? Well,
that's thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
I don't know, I'm making it up. I'm just reserving
the right to that.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Hey, you know what, you're my guests. You you were
allowed to do that.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
So maybe we just add pluses.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
Oh yeah, well and this is a name multiple pluses.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
Definitely an a plus. Yeah, it's a brilliant, brilliant episode.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Very very good.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
All right, well we've wrapped up the first arc. I
have appreciated so much the two of you not only
sharing your time and talents, but sharing your insights with me.
It certainly helps me look at and Or very differently,
and I hope that those of you listening these conversations
are doing the same thing for you. Please let us
know in the CWK cafe Coffee with Knobe dot com
slash community and weigh in about these episodes of and,

(59:33):
or share some images or pictures of your latest Star
Wars collectible, or just come in and say hello, we'd
love to chat with you, and Bob, we always love
chatting with you. The podcast is short for a Stormtroopers.
Please let us know what's going on where people can
find you.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
That's right, just find short for a Stormtroopers. Search for
it wherever you get your podcast. That's probably the easiest way.
You can also go to sfaspod dot com. Join us there,
join us on learning Geeks if want to talk about
that as well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
So happy, yeah, well, we we always love listening to
new episodes and love having you on. John, it's you.
You're a veteran now, buddy.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Hey, I I feel like it. I have no podcast,
but I am an honored, honored to be your guest
on over the This Story arc and it's it's truly
been a pleasure. It's made me learn more intentionally about
the episodes, to spend time to give the more thought
and uh, I think it's only helped me increase my

(01:00:34):
my enjoyment of the show.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
So thank you, oh my gosh, my pleasure. Thank you,
Thank you both, and I can't wait to see what
happens next as we move into the second arc next
week on behalf of Bob, John and myself we will
see you next time, my friends. Thank you so much
for joining us on Coffee with Kenobi. This is the
podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 4 (01:00:56):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm One. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars all names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(01:01:17):
intellectual property of Copy with Kenobi, unless otherwise indicated.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
This is the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
There's no one here on on

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