CWK Show #821: Andor- "Ever Been To Ghorman?"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Tom Kane, the voice of Yoda and Star
Wars the Clone Wars, and you're listening to coffee with
Kenobi with dan Zy.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
This is the podcast. You're looking for.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
Your elective pods.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's part of it.

Speaker 4 (00:13):
No one understands what you're doing out there.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
When you say no one, I'm assuming you mean Uncle Horlo.

Speaker 5 (00:19):
This one's different.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm not buying another spider.

Speaker 5 (00:22):
This one's free.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
What do you want?

Speaker 1 (00:27):
You're right, you're not as horses. Look at just the
conviction numbers we're allowed to see in the places we
know are peaceful. An eighteen percent rising Kaifo to passy
twenty one, a thirty eight percent increase.

Speaker 5 (00:44):
In Gooman Gorman.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Of all places, Gorma would be your remarkable place to
turn our away.

Speaker 4 (00:56):
I need to know more before we get involved.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
This will be fine. You don't know that.

Speaker 4 (01:04):
This is Vanessa Marshall Harrison Dula from Star Wars Rebels,
and you're listening to coffee with Kenoby, joining us today
a cup of coffee to talk about the fourth episode
in season two of and Or. The episode is called
Ever Been to Gorman?

Speaker 5 (01:22):
Now?

Speaker 4 (01:23):
I know my two guests pretty well. I don't know
that they've ever been to Gorman, but I do know
they've been to coffee with Knoby, and I'm very happy
to have them back on the show. First from Phanto Tracks,
Mark Newbolt, Mark, welcome back to the show.

Speaker 5 (01:35):
My friend's been too long.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
It has been a while. Yeah, I didn't realize how
i'd have been, but so I was very pleased to
get the invites. So I'm always happy to come and chat.

Speaker 4 (01:45):
Absolutely, I'm looking forward to your insights, and speaking of insights,
I'm also looking forward to the insights. He is a
very valued member of the CWK community, always present in
the CWK alliance. The one and only Daz Davies. Daz,
welcome back to the show.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
It's a growing a team of don It's good to
be here. Hello to everybody back home.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yes, yes, well it's a growing a team again to
you all of you. Look, we've got a lot to
talk about here. I've ever been to Gorman, and as
we of course have been talking about for weeks on
coffee with Kenoby, and as we talked about before, we're
gonna do our best whenever I teach the Hobbit or
Harry Potter, for example, several of my students have seen

(02:26):
all the films or they've read the books already. What
we try to emphasize is, look, we're only gonna focus
on what is only on the existing chapter. We'll try
not to give any winks and stick ahead because we
feel like there's so much richness here, So we're gonna
stick only to you ever been to Gorman? Naturally, everyone's
probably seen the entire series multiple times. We're just gonna
try to do that because I think it will make

(02:46):
for much richer conversation. So, dads, we're gonna kick it
off with you, Please give me one word to describe
your overall thoughts on ever Been to Gorman and just
kind of give me a brief synopsis of what you
thought of the episode.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Okay, So the word that I've gone for is trauma.
The reason for that being that that I think this
episode perhaps lacks in action, but it makes up for
it with a good character in sight for each of
the main players in the episode. I feel like everybody,

(03:21):
all all the main characters here are all dealing with
their own traumas and slightly being controlled or making decisions
heavily based upon those traumas, and thinking cassion and the
losses he's sustained and talking about BIS and perhaps the
most obvious traumas which she has had to endure, the

(03:41):
torture and the abuse in the previous arc. And yeah,
even if you think about Cyril, who features quite heavily
in the episode, I think that he's very much a
man who's sort of basing a lot of these decisions
based on his trauma, on his that his home life,
on the buttch job that came in the previous season.

(04:04):
I think a lot of these are in his decision.
So I've gone for trauma.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
Okay, Well, I think there's plenty there to support that
word mark what about you?

Speaker 5 (04:16):
One word? And overall thoughts on the episode.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Oh, I will go for portentious as in, it feels
like there's a lot of stuff being set up in
this episode, and without casting forward, which of course we
are not going to do, it does feel like a
lot of the characters, Cyril obviously moving to Gorman and
his situation changing, because of course we are now one

(04:42):
year later from that previous batch, so things have moved
on in terms of Bix and her own where she is,
her own issues. That feels like, especially the way the
episode ends that feels like that's got more things to come.
So I think all of the characters, even right down
to Lonnie, even down to party Gays, everybody's got something

(05:04):
ahead of them. It just feels like, of course, it's
the first of the next sort of trilogy of episodes,
so everyone's teeing the next year up. But this one
really feels quite hefty, and especially because we're finally at Gorman,
and even without as I say, casting forward to the
future of the season, long term Star Wars fans and
even people who are kind of casually interstall Wars, no

(05:25):
Gorman is a big deal within the realms of season
two of and Ors. So I will say portentious. Don't
ask me to spell it, but that's the word I'm picking.

Speaker 5 (05:33):
Pr r n t e n T I O U S.
That is a great word. I love portentous.

Speaker 4 (05:39):
It's hard to beat either of your words. I guess
I'll go with tense. There's a slowly building tension in
this in galactic scale ways and very intimate interpersonal ways
with relationships in a marriage. I don't know that Cyril
is married, but it seems that they have a very

(06:01):
intense relationship that is between the two of them. There's
tension with Luthan. Everyone has a degree of tension, and
it's just on. It's just simmering, right your turning the
stove up, your pot of tea is boiling her coffee,
as it were, and it's just about to get to
a fever pitch. And that's exactly the emotion that you have.

(06:24):
And as you mentioned as there is no action in
this episode per se, but you don't miss it, you
don't crave it, you don't even notice it's not there.

Speaker 5 (06:33):
In fact, until you.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Said that, Daz, I didn't even realize there was no
action in the episode. There's just so much character stuff
and because of all the hard work that Towny Gilroy
and the cast and crew have done with and or
especially with season two, you just you dive right into
the tension.

Speaker 5 (06:49):
So let's talk about it.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
Mark, I'm actually gonna start with you, Gorman. Talk to
me about the history of Gorman before and or season
two and why is it relevant to Star Wars.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
It kind of started from best recollection early days in
Western Games, back in the early nineties. It was part
of one of the I think it might have been
in the Galaxy Guide. I think it was almost certainly
in one of the campaigns, and they set out this
world not defined as it is in season two of
and ORed, but it's one of those planets that's kind
of been around in the background of the law, specifically

(07:23):
because of this Gorman massacre that's referred to, which I
will not cast forward, but we kind of know that
there's this big deal coming, this big whole conflict coming,
and they've been very elegant, I think, in the sense
that they've taken that original historical moment that Tony Gilroy
was talking about so much into season two, which again

(07:45):
just as the slotsh it was very encouraging as a
fan of wanting it all to fit together. I think
that's what a lot of fans wanted to kind of
hang together, the fact that he was relating Tom and
referred Norman massacre. They've kind of shifted it back down
the timeline and kind of rejigged it to the talk
and massacre. But that's a slight sidetrack, Yeah, just the

(08:07):
way they've worked it in as a world that wasn't
hugely defined to my best recollection, and actually I think
when we come out of this episode, even just this
episode in fact, absolutely, just this episode, you feel that
you've learned so much about this world, just the aesthetic
of it, the style of it, the vibe of it,

(08:28):
which is something that changes as we go. But nevertheless,
you've come out of this episode feeling like Gorman's now
suddenly become a destination. They've defined it so well, which
is huge. Hats off to the team. So from a
world that was known of, but not tremendously because it was,
as I say, it was sort of a thirty year

(08:49):
old It could have been a planet in a Star
Wars Marvel comic back in the day, really, but just
that key event, they've took that as the kernel to
sort of grow into this this incredible season. So I
think they're done a tremendous job in that sense.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
I agree.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
And and you're really doing a good job with scurting
the boundary of winking ahead. You're you're that you're that
problem child in my classroom. But that's all right, I
think I can. I think I've got your number, mister.
You're doing beautifully as you always do. Look Gorman, thank
you for the summation and reminder of that. Uh, And

(09:27):
that's exactly right. And and am I misremembering. Do they
mention Gorman in Star Wars Rebels?

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Ever, that's a good question. I think they do.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
I feel like Das is shaking and said, yes, Das,
do you have any information for us?

Speaker 3 (09:45):
I believe it was mentioned when my sort of had
that scene in Rebels where okay, well pretty much lines
up with you know, events around this period. I think
that there was. There wasn't much detail given, but yeah,
I do think that it was mentioned and mentioned in dispatches.

Speaker 5 (10:04):
I thought so, I thought so as well.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
So okay, now we're pretty well lined up, and I
think that is part of why there's so much delicious tension.
So what we like to do when we look at
these because I've just got a couple of bullet points
of things I think are worth talking about. But I'd
love to hear from our wonderful guests. First, Mark, let's
actually Das.

Speaker 5 (10:25):
Why don't we start with you?

Speaker 4 (10:27):
What is one key point that you'd like to bring
up about this episode? It doesn't have to be from
the beginning, can be from anywhere and ever been to Gorman.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
A point? Well, perhaps I'll start to start. Really, this
is the first gap between two ocs that we have
in the hand or series. Well, we know that, you
know that there's been a storytelling decision made there. For me, instantly,
when we went into this episode, we're given the one
year later on the screen, and I think it was

(10:58):
the three years why it it was an it's an
interesting story telling tool. I think that they've used not
that that to have a year gap. I think that's
perfectly you know, fine, but it's gonna be interesting to
think that there's going to always be that year between

(11:20):
each of these arcs, and so that with this being
the first time it happened, I think it's the Instantly
I was thinking, wow, we've really jumped from one place
to another in terms of like visually the last time,
at the end of the first arc we could see
them in this magnificent fields golden and then we opened

(11:42):
up this episode and yes we're in Corussond. It's very dark,
it's shadows, it's it's like we're really dropped into the episode,
and I was wondering how that would feel, and to me,
I did find it a little bit disorientating at first,
but then it does leave a lot for us to

(12:02):
pops pick up as we watched the episode or maybe
some stuff for us to fill in with, you know,
our own headcoming as it were. But I did think
that it was an interesting way to start the episode,
and I guess on the things that we'll get used
to as we go forwards. I don't know what you
guys thought about it.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
You know, I've been thinking about this a lot, because
I think as I look at it again the first
time I did, I kept thinking, so I know, it's
been a year, and besides a bit of a change
of scenery, I don't really notice a lot of differences
in the narrative, Like if you didn't tell me it
would spend a year. I don't think I would have

(12:44):
noticed or been that invested because Star Wars is sort
of predicated even from the very very beginning of Look,
stuff happened before and after we didn't tell you, but
it's there, trust us, it's important, but they don't ever
spill it out, and I would have caught that. It
could have been a week, it could have been a month,
it could have been a year, it could have been
ten years. Honestly, the only way I felt a little loss.

(13:07):
And I did like the choice because there's historical roots
in the telling of Star Wars stories through this particular angle.
The only thing that really confused me was that there's
a lot of mention, especially around their dinner table with
Bigs and Cassian, about the death of a soldier, and

(13:30):
then it comes out that the soldier as a child,
and I kept thinking, is this from season one? If
I miss something? And then I realized this must be
part of the gap. But I mean, is that what
you both thought as well?

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah? Yeah, I agree. I like weirdly though, I think
with andor more than any of the Star Wars shower,
I kind of like being a little bit disorientated because
I think they construct the show certainly going from so
I interviewed Allis the Patriot at the weekend and he
spoke about when it was originally being planned out, and

(14:05):
they were talking six seasons, and then it was five,
and then of course it became two. So of course
they've truncated all these storylines into these three episode blocks,
so that by nature means you're not deep diving in
twelve episodes into those three episodes of real estate, if
you like, and you're going to get the gaps. I think,
lucaswe must be thrilled to bits because there's the wikistic

(14:25):
and animated series there. We can do a book there,
Marvel can do a series there. There's all this real
estate they can fill in. But as a casual viewer,
it would be more disorientating than having a moment where
you're going have I seen this before? And you're dredging it,
like you just say, Daniel, you're kind of dreading your mind.
You think, have I seen it? And then pretty quickly no, No,
this is new. So for us it's a quick pivot,

(14:46):
but I think for other fans it might be a
little bit trickier. But nevertheless, it's where do you draw
the lines on exposition, on feeling like you've missed something
or you've not missed anything. You'll pick it up, you know,
there's always those those beats that you'll kind of fill
in the gaps yourself, Like Dad says, you know, there'
certain elements that you pick up yourself. But I kind

(15:09):
of like that. So, but only really with this show
because it feels so vast, and also weirdly because it
is such a in the best sense, a lot of
it is a talking head show. You know, it's not
piles and piles of action, you know, so so I
like the thought that you have got to give it

(15:29):
that second, third, fourth watch to really pull out the
best of it.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
Well said, Well said, I agree with that, and I
think it does add a layer of if you're a
little bit not in the now, then you feel like
their characters are. And I think that's a really very
impressive way to tell that story. Marks what's a key point?
Do you think is the one thing we should bring up?

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Quite how much the Empire doesn't trust the Empire. By that,
I mean, no two ple in that organization have any
trust for the guy next to them or the woman
next to them, And it really stands out in season
in season two, you've always felt that imperials by nature
will happily push the next push the next guy or
gal under the bus, but you see it in real

(16:16):
time in and or So even this sequence in this
in this episode where Partigas is still bossing the room
at IB headquarters and everybody's reporting in and actually the
only strong link that unites any of them is Lonnie,
and we know Lonnie is playing the long game, so
so even there you kind of think he's only doing
that because there's a means to an end. That he's

(16:37):
trying to drag out. You know, as Luthan says, you know,
I need, I need, I need to know what the
big I can't remember the exact phrase, but he's basically,
I need to know what the end result is. I
need to know what the end game is, what's this
all about? And that's way off at this point. But
but Lonnie is trying to pull it out, trying to
pull it out. He's the only guy that's that's you know,
is on hard side. He's on forgive I forget that

(17:00):
the other senior imperial's name, but who gets a bit
of a carpeting from party gains. But you know, he's
the one that's trying to keep them together. But the
rest of them, you know, Dejrah and Heart are just
whereas last season it was late night, let's get some
pizzas in and figure this thing out, you know, now
it's so not that. So that's what stuck out to
me is just how divisive, how you know, dog eat

(17:24):
dog the imperial ranks are, and you've got to assume
it goes fairly high, fairly high, probably up to probably
up to Old Anakin himself. And even then, yeah, that's
what I'm we in on that at all.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, Well, the only thing I was going to mention
about that that scene in particularly that Mark was talking about,
was gosh, didn't the actressy plays dead? Is it?

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Denise go?

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Wasn't Wasn't it incredible facial acting where she has this
mix of interest indifference discussed and like a peak of
interest when she hears axis mentioned and she barely moves
her heead It's all in her eyes and her mouth.

(18:12):
I thought, what an amazing piece of acting with absolutely
no speech at all. That really stood out to me,
and not saying I thought, bravo, that was brilliant.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
It truly is a masterclass, isn't it?

Speaker 5 (18:26):
In performance?

Speaker 4 (18:27):
It may go her performance may go down is one
of the more elite ones in the history of Star Wars.
Honestly and and and rightfully so and and to your point, Mark,
I agree, and and it makes you laugh a little bit.
We have plenty of history history from around the entire world,
the real world, of the problems that occur when we

(18:50):
don't trust, we don't know that the man or woman
to our left or right has our back, so to speak,
or that we can count on them, and then everyone
has always one up and one other.

Speaker 5 (19:01):
It's like a.

Speaker 4 (19:02):
Pool of piranhas, and of course they can't trust each other,
and yet it managed to survive and thrive in the
face of great hate and distrust and just selfish interests
led by the Emperor, who is the most selfish and
self motivated person in this entire saga. So it's really

(19:23):
really fascinating. I think the place I want to start
is with Cassian and Bicks now the first arc, if
I didn't know any better, whenever she would reference Cassian
as her husband, I thought that was a cover for protection,
to keep that imperial, creepy lunatic away from her. And

(19:44):
even at the end of the way, they embrace it
that well, these are very close people. There's an intimacy there.
But then this starts and they're lying in a what
you can only presume as a marital bed together and
I thought, okay, they are together and their dynamic. We
get very powerful scenes with them. We see her great PTSD,

(20:07):
her great anxiety, her great suffering from what she had
to go through in season one and the nightmares that
come from that, to the point of her potentially becoming violent.

Speaker 5 (20:17):
Now she has a.

Speaker 4 (20:18):
Blaster and in her dreaming slash hallucination, she's gonna shoot. Well,
that was certainly tip off a lot of people, Cassie
and stops her. Clearly is not the first time he's loving,
he's patient, but he also is not willing to back down,
and he wants to attack it directly, but he still
respects her. And then and there's that frustrating moment where

(20:39):
she's like, even though she appears to be like not
quite fully, you know, lucent she still she says, look,
if this is a war, and you keep telling me
that it is, and I believe you. I think you're right,
but I want to win. And his look at her

(21:01):
when that happens, Cassie and is fascinating in this regard
for all of his bravado and his toughness and is
charged through any wall. He's also very reluctant to kind
of wind up his own motor and because he wants
to keep her safe and there's I mean, we're all married.
There's nothing more important than that, right than caring for

(21:23):
your wife, caring for your family, and the fact that
he has a dynamic he wants to bring her with
him when Luthen gives him this task.

Speaker 5 (21:31):
At the end of the.

Speaker 4 (21:31):
Episode, it's really cool and they have when they part,
there's this wonderful moment of intimacy that was so beautiful
and so intoxicating. And it wasn't salacious, it wasn't lascivious.
It didn't require anything that would be Pg. Thirteen that
you couldn't watch with your children. They might have some questions,

(21:53):
and I don't know that I would watch it with
a kid, but just there, you know, there's so much
love and intimacy there and the way they express it.
I thought that was just so breathtaking to experience, and
it was an experience that I was really it was
very drawn to it.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
That you make a really good point about that moment.
I think that to me when I was watching them,
you know, it was almost like a close quarters sort
of almost like a dance really, and I felt I
felt for that moment. I feel like that they just
that they managed to shut out the rebellion, They managed
to shut out the war. This was the like the

(22:33):
pure heart I would say of their relationship, that this
is why they have a relationship. You strip out all
the other complications away, and I think you get this
visual representation of like, this is how they still have
a relationship, and that eating deers in the harshest of circumstances.
So that that was how I saw that, And yeah,

(22:54):
it was shortly after Cassing Leaves, and it was It
really did leave me with a bit of a lump
in my throat because it throughout the episode up to
that point, they've been they've been going back and forth
about these issues. I think that Passion is wrestling, in

(23:17):
particular with the relationship on he's contradicting himself continuously. On
one hand, he's talking about the death of the young soldier,
this is, well, this is what happens you put on
that uniform that this is you know, you play the game.
You know plays in the games. When Silly praises was
kind of sentiment that he was trying to push, but

(23:38):
I'm not even sure he was really believing his own words.
But then on the other hand, he's so protective at
this point of Picks that it completely goes against what
he's saying, because well, she's the soldier just on the
other side. But however, he's really struggling with putting her
in harm's way at all. He's avoiding it as much
as possible. She says, you know that it's would would

(24:02):
you have shot him? Or was the reason he shot
him because he saw my face? So they've they've been
going back and forth, and I don't think really costume
the sort of resolves by the end of the episode,
but I think that it sort of time runs out,
so speak and he's he's got to go. That was

(24:23):
that was my read on their relationship.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Fantastically mhm, yeah, I think they're there their moment together
that you refer to, Dan, I think it was very
it was very Pherrixian. I think that was that was
personal to their culture, that was their thing. It was
it was almost a bit like as an analogy, a
bit like when peacocks are presenting to There was just

(24:49):
a pageantry about that just what they were doing, which
I really like because that, you know, that's that's very much.
I think the feryx thing, Stone and Sky, that's just
a very personal thing to them, the Pharyxians in the show.
So and also it's a great throwback to season one
as well, anything any mention of Ferics and of course
we've lost Brasso now, so that's a huge moment. But yeah,
their relationship is. I think because Bis has sort of said,

(25:13):
we've known each other forever, so they've grown up together.
They they've either been friends or they've been on and
off boyfriend girlfriend as kids. You know, you get the
vibe that they've always been in and around each other's relationships.
And I think it's such a strong relationship that Cassie
and can be annoyed and very frank and and as

(25:34):
Daz says, not actually make sense every consecutive sentence. He
always contradicts himself, and she knows him so well that
she knows it's coming from the right place. That they're
both in this war together. You know, Cassie and says
in rogue, what I've been in this war since I
was six years old. Well, so those Bis to different
different degrees, And you can say that I've a lot

(25:55):
of characters. You can say that about Gin, You can
say that about a lot of different characters in their
own way. But I think she understands him well enough
to know that even when ye knows he says one
thing about the soldier and a different thing about Bis,
and she's ready to fight. He gets annoyed when she's
you know, more involved than he kind of wants her
to be. It's all from a place of love. They've

(26:16):
got a relationship. I mean the great parallels Dejah and
Cyril compared to Cassian and Bis. That's the great comparison really,
but but not the only one. But but that's the
big one. And yeah, I just think I just think
it shows the strength of their relationship that she could
be frank with him and he can be as irritated
as as you see him, but she reads the message

(26:37):
of what he's trying is not it can't always verbalize it.
It's through his emotions. He speaks Blauder really quite often.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
Absolutely and any only only thing I want to say
about that is I feel like in any other showy
but in several other shows that moment would be cheapened by.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Like, like I.

Speaker 4 (26:58):
Said, more of a PG. Thirteen express of love. And
the fact that it wasn't it felt so authentic to
me that there is a promient's like, wow, this is
even acting. This is so beautiful. So I really really
really appreciate. I think it speaks volumes about both the
whole episode. There's a legitimacy and authenticity to this relationship.

(27:19):
Or both have a shared trauma but also a history
together that I really love.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
I'd just like to say, Dan, I'd love to know
the actors whether or not that was something that was
completely choreographed on scripts, or whether it was something that
they worked out together, because it felt, as you say,
it felt very real and very you know, a thing.
It was felt like something they maybe worked out as actors.

Speaker 5 (27:38):
Yes, an excellent question.

Speaker 3 (27:40):
If I could just jump in as well. Mark, you
you mid point about the parallels sort of relationships, and
I don't know about you guys, but as Star Wars fans,
when I hear about Cassi and fearing loss of people
close to him, my Star Wars lambells were ringing loud,
and I was thinking, oh, we've been here before. I
of course go to think about Anakin and his fear

(28:01):
of losing badmet and comparing the two relationships, and you know,
whatever the outcome is, I think perhaps the difference is
is that Cassian Ambis are talking this out and they're
wrestling with it together. And I suppose, I mean, we've
covered it a million times, but perhaps if Anakin had
been able to put it more out there, perhaps, you know.

Speaker 4 (28:24):
I agree, if only you were there to help steal. Yes,
I agree, Well, Dad's what what's the next a thing
that you thought would be worthy of a topic here.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
It's it's seril. For me, he comes into the episode quietly,
we're introduced to you know, well, we to Gorman, and
it almost instantly drop in on Cyril story. It's quiet,
he's getting ready to go to work. And for me,
I saw him quite different in this episode. I saw
that he was straight away. Of course, we saw in

(29:00):
the first season that he likes to, you know, dress
his uniform nice and smart, and it's it's it's fitting
that he's just happens to have fulled on his feet
with this where he's he's literally on a planet renowned
for its it's fine clothing, and he looks super smart
and it looks he really does. He is the perfect

(29:21):
man for this this outing, I'd say, And instantly I
start getting these sort of spy vibes. He notices out
the window that he's been watched, and well, on my
first viewing, I thought, oh, is this Cyril being a
little bit overly cautious, But upon repeat viewing, no, he
was definitely being watched through the window, and I love it.

(29:44):
He's he's quite suave. In this scene, he closes the
window quite calmly, carries on, and later on, of course
we learned that, you know, he's very aware of what
is happening, but he pulls the cord around the door.
It felt like an old fashioned spy movie. I really
enjoyed it, and I love the esthetic of Gorman skipping

(30:06):
between Corrassont and Gorman throughout this episode. I don't know
if there was ever any confusion about where we were.
It was a beautiful looking place and sort of fit
in with the sort of story of the place and
how it's supposed to be. I also noticed the detail
of when he was speaking with Dedro on this sort
of secret call that behind him the tiling on the

(30:28):
wall was like a hexagonal cells, similar to a hive.
And in the public meeting that they mentioned that I
presumably that the spiders that produced the materials work within
a sort of a hive environment, and I thought, well,
the little touches are great, So yeah, for me, I

(30:50):
feel like Cyril was thriving here. I think it's a
different Cyril overall at this point, perhaps on slightly shaking legs.
We don't know how you know, firm standing he's going
to have. But generally I thought that he went about
his work really well. He was convincing that he was
a surprisingly good actor. If indeed he is acting, it

(31:14):
wasn't always clear to the point that I was doubting.
Especially in his conversations with the Gorman people of their meeting,
he really helps me thinking maybe he believes in this course,
I could completely buy that. So, yeah, Cyril for me,
What did you guys think of in this episode.

Speaker 5 (31:36):
Mark of Cyril?

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, totally. He seems the most at ease. I think
that we see him in the whole two seasons. He
likes the place. He clearly likes the place. He's finally
got a role of, at least to his mind, of
some importance, and of course we know he's there for reasons,
but nevertheless, you know he's in charge of a particular
group of people. He's as fastidious and organized as ever,

(32:03):
which is great. And the conversation with his mom, which
is always a joy. Hearing Edie in any scene, you
know he's he's now got the confidence after you know,
the infamous meal to sort of and you've you've got
to assume there's many years worth of Yeah, this is
the fifty second once a week phone call. You know.
So he's quite clear at letting mom, you know, know

(32:25):
know where he is, what he's thinking. He's very firm.
He cuts her off at the end. You know, this
is a nice little whatever you want to call it
snub or just power play or whatever. Or I've had enough, mom, goodbye,
see you next week. So I even like that. So yeah,
I think he's in terms of the whole Gorman front
and you know, speaking to Ryland's and the whole conversations there,

(32:48):
he's curious. I mean, I think because he likes the
place and he's not fully up to speed with everything
in the way that Dedra is. You know, when they
have that phone call, you know, she's you know, he's
going to tell parts gaz no, no, no, you know,
baby steps. You know. So she but she's used to this.
She's in that world of you know, ib world, spycraft

(33:11):
and all that stuff. It's it's that's second nature to her.
And the information she would discern and filter through to him,
it's all new. This he suddenly turned up in you
know the spoiler of me, isn't he So he's happy
in this, in this new world putting his little you know,
Sean Conery threads across the door and all that stuff.
It's part of his daily routine clearly, and as he said,

(33:32):
as you know, seeing the stuff out the window and
all of that. So I think he's quite excited by that.
So at this point, before we reach any kind of
tipping point, you know, he can go to a town
hall and just listen like any concerned neighbor would listen.
You know, there's no crime against that at this point.
And of course you kind of know that's kind of
what Partsgas and Deedro wants because he's the unwilling Patsy

(33:54):
in this scenario. But I don't think he even considers that.
I think he's quite happy. So yeah, Cyril is in.
I think he's in the best place that you probably
see him in the whole two seasons of the show.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
So I think you're going to say nobody does it better.
When you mentioned the spy who loved me.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
You did.

Speaker 4 (34:14):
Look, look what I like about Cyril here. This was
the first time when I watched him where I wasn't cringing,
And I think that's by design, because I don't think
he is cringing. Whatever has happened the past year. I
think we have a good measure because of the way
that Dedra tastes control of the dynamic with him and
his mother at the end of season one of episode three,

(34:38):
So there's a confidence there. He is in charge now,
he is in charge of a large office of people.
He does have purpose, he does have intent. He feels
like his knowledge and experience and his wherewithal is valued
and he's able to put it into action. The conversation
you mentioned with his mother, both of you, it was

(35:01):
very important because there was a time through most of
what we know of Cyril that or that conversation would
have had him laying on his bed in this weird,
awkward pretzel position for hours. But it doesn't even face him,
even like her insults, which are still there. She still
mentions Uncle Harlow, but he doesn't react, doesn't bad eye
because he's got more important things to do. So he

(35:22):
is not controlled by that enmeshment. And that's huge. But
more than that, what I like about Cyril and This
is that we have a character. It was extremely as
much as anyone in this series, probably more than anyone
in this series Black and White. It's either this way,
or it's that way. My suit is suppressed, my hair

(35:42):
is perfectly koifed, I'm completely clean shaven, my shoes are polished,
I have my briefcase. I'm at work from the morning
till very very much at the end of the night
when there's nobody in the courtyard. And yet when he
goes into this meeting, this beautiful meeting, with a lot
of a lot of tension and passionate acting and performances,

(36:04):
you start to see a glimmer of doubt, of gray
of thinking, is there a middle ground here? No, that
can't be, because the empire is good and everything else
is bad. Rebellions are bad. But you see just briefly
that he starts to consider other alternatives and it becomes
very nuanced in that regard. Instead of some patsy, he

(36:27):
becomes someone who starts thinking about things differently. Now it
doesn't take hold, but seeds are planted, and I find
that fascinating.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Definitely. I never I didn't think I would say it
until this episode, but I've become quite a bit of
a serial fun in this particular episode, which me too
coming from you know ways previously. Who defaults it. But
it could argue that has been good for Siral, although

(37:03):
it's a very un orthodox. Yeah, we saw that scene
with the infamous meal with the mom, and I feel
like that was a real turning point for him. I
think that he had actually given up and when he
came back into that room, I think that a lot

(37:24):
changed for him. And I think that whether it was
completely intentional on Dager's points, I think she did exactly
what was needed. I would say yes, she probably did
know what she was doing, and knowing how she's very
computing in the way, she thinks, she probably saw the mother,
that the mom being something that was getting in her way,

(37:46):
and she just took it off the board. And now
we're seeing the fruits of that decision.

Speaker 4 (37:52):
Absolutely, Mark feel fretty come on that or if not,
I'd love to hear your next topic of interest.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
But big of interest would be Gorman itself. I think
the whole propaganda that's been spilled out across the galaxy
about this world, which, as we've said, you know, it's
it's it's the it's not the fashion capital of the galaxy,
but certainly the material is highly regarded, so so it's
it's it's known. It's one of those worlds that would

(38:22):
be known in many circles. Maybe not on Tatooine, but
you know other places they would be well aware of Gorman.
And so just to see from the early episodes when
with the Imperial Meeting that the whole plan to to
bad name, I guess you know Gorman as a world
and just pick on the the arrogance, that perceived arrogance.

(38:45):
And I mean it's very clear they've they've gone all
in on the French influence, the resistance influence. There's there's
no it's almost felony like in that they've they've picked
a specific tone and this is this is the thing
that we're going for. It's very much on the nose
in that sense, but with enough of a twist that

(39:06):
it's not distracting. Does or no this here in the
UK we had a show called Lllo and this could
have become a loolo google it and so they could
have gone that route, and it doesn't. It just about
keeps it away from that to the point where it
becomes actually useful as an influence on the story as

(39:27):
opposed to a distraction. But Gorman itself, I think now
worldwide globally, you know galactically. Rather, you can see even
in the things that Edie says, and you pick up
on the propaganda that she's being fed so and she's
just she's almost like a filter or a litmus test
for what's broadly being spewed out everywhere. And even in

(39:49):
the Solars galaxy, you know, they watch, you know, junk TV,
they listen to junk radio. There's pop, there's not. You know,
the neo Moos music starts offers music at the beach
front in season one, it ends up at the wedding
in season two. It's lift music by the end of it.
So you know, you just see the progression of all
these sort of cultural zeitgeist things. Even within the galaxy.

(40:11):
It's a very small scale thing, but you see it,
and people gossip, So I love that. You know, the
Empire is savvy enough, even though there's lots of bickering
and infighting, they're savy enough to use this as a weapon.
They weaponize that as much as they're weaponizing the Death
Start to many degrees, because you've got to assume that
as things progress, and certain worlds like Old Iran, what's

(40:36):
where you know, outside of the rebellion is their galactic
sympathy for Oldaran, you know, to the scale that you
would imagine there would be if the Empire hadn't kind
of got their propaganda fingers on it. So I think
there's bigger things to think about, and Gorman is just
as small within what we're talking about, sort of a
small example of how they can twist perfectly harmless, you know,

(40:58):
as they sort of say, you know, we're a single
item economy. Essentially, it's all about the spiders and the
and the Gorman twill and that's us, you know, there's
nothing else we have, but we're really good at this
well that's now undermined. And so I just think that
was a really interesting thing to sort of watch and
obviously will progress.

Speaker 5 (41:17):
Yeah, I love that. I love both of your thoughts there,
and and it's.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Gorman is actually going to lead to my next point,
and it's the spiders themselves. So we know that the
spiders of course make the thread, and that's that's a
beautiful sort of an image because the spider, you know,
can do that. That's that's a real world application, right
that we can we can.

Speaker 5 (41:42):
Dive into that.

Speaker 4 (41:44):
Yeah, but the English teacher and me, I know it's summer,
but that doesn't matter. The clock's always on. And I
start thinking to myself, what does the spiders symbolize?

Speaker 5 (41:54):
Why a spider?

Speaker 3 (41:56):
You know?

Speaker 4 (41:56):
I mean, yes, you get the thread and that's one way.
But Tony Kiroy's smart. You could come up with a
million other scenarios. We have Gorman spiders. So I in
my thought process, and I'm not saying that I'm right,
I'm probably not, But to me, the Gorman spider is
a symbol what does a spider do?

Speaker 5 (42:17):
Right?

Speaker 4 (42:18):
In essence, the spider, While some are poisonous if you
know you bother them, they're not egregious animals. They don't
have that kind of thought. They're just instinctual. In fact,
my son was saying to me, Dad, why do spiders
bite people? And I said, well, think about this. You know,
a spider. What does a spider do? Like like we

(42:39):
learn in the film Jaws about what do sharks do?
They swim around. All those spiders on swim and they
make other little sharks or they make other little spiders. Right,
that's what they do. So they have to eat to
do that. How do they do that? They spin a web,
big old web and stuff gets trapped. In it and
they climb up their little thing and they kill the bug.

Speaker 5 (43:00):
Right.

Speaker 4 (43:02):
So then I'm thinking, all right, so the Empire has
taken this world with spiders, and they've laid out their
trap and they play the long game. You know, Gorman's
been there for a while. We learn that from that
underground meeting, and we learned that look this place where
they're there, we.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
Think they're going to build an armory.

Speaker 4 (43:23):
This is actually sacred land because this is where Grahama
Tarkin killed where they say five hundred unarmed protesters. Yeah,
so so they're laying it's a trap being laid. Everyone's
sticking right into it.

Speaker 5 (43:39):
And it's it's pretty scary.

Speaker 4 (43:41):
Some spiders consume their own and we're seeing that too.
It's fascinating, and I can extend this metaphor more clearly
as we go through each episode that it takes place
on Gorman, but I'm going to leave it right there
and just kind of put out those feelers.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
That's an interesting thought that, Yeah, yeah, I don't think
they're even though they're spiders. To me, they feel more
like mammals and they're acting into weirdly. I'm not convinced
that they're necessarily direct sort of transposition of and I've
seen spiders in what was it carrying a courage, and
obviously the knobbly spiders of the quarry stuff and things
in mandeb and re bulls. Yeah. Yeah, so we've seen

(44:22):
plenty of spiders or or acnid type creatures, but these ones,
to me feel almost like you could pick them up,
stroke them and they'd be gerbils. They'd be kind of
kind of cool. And there is another little weird comparison.
Das mentioned that there's the quiet room where where Dedrut
and Cyril have their phone call and the hexagonal stuff
in the background. I don't know if you notice, but

(44:42):
when Cyril gets given the spider this time with the
message inside and he opens it up, if you look
at the rim around the of the thorax of the spider,
it's little hexagonal spaces. So I just wonder whether that's
another thing that's sort of being coded in there, that
that we, you know, to sort of push that sort

(45:03):
of thought process further.

Speaker 5 (45:04):
So I love it.

Speaker 3 (45:06):
I love it well, I may as well throw mine
into the heart the ex biology teacher in me. Another
thing I was thinking about on the female spiders and
the story that is unfolding is that the female the
species of the spider, will often be considerably bigger, dominant,

(45:28):
whereas the male will be small, insignificant, for once its
purpose is pasted, it will be devoured. And well, it
got me thinking very much Cyril the spider and deadra
pulling all the strings.

Speaker 4 (45:47):
Another connection interesting that seems like a good thing to
talk about in a future episode.

Speaker 5 (45:51):
I like that.

Speaker 4 (45:53):
Listening to Coffee we you are with Denz the podcast
you're looking for this is. I feel like we've get
a lot of the key ideas. I think it would
be neat to sort of wrap this up and get

(46:14):
our letter grades for the episode. And if you have
any last one things you want to throw on there,
please do but Dazz, we'll start with you last minute
thoughts and a letter grade.

Speaker 5 (46:24):
For the episode. Ever been to Gormt.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
Well thinking back looking back in this episode, trying to
come up with a grade. I think initially I was
distracted by the as we've discussed the lack of action.
Straight away, I started thinking, well that the grade for
this can't be too high because on the face of it,
what happens, you know, And I was thinking maybe, maybe
but it is unto the whole. It's always great, Let's

(46:49):
be honest. I think in a minus perhaps, And then
upon a pair of reflection, I thought, no, why am
I giving this a minus? This for me is doing
exactly what it's setting up to do. It's setting a
sap for the rest of the art. Does that perfectly
going up on this episode we know exactly where all
the pieces are on the board. But also we we

(47:11):
we often bemoan the lack of character development, and I
feel like there was bucket loads in me. So it's
a solid A for me on this one.

Speaker 5 (47:21):
Wonderful Mark, what about you?

Speaker 2 (47:24):
I very much agree it's a soliday for me as well,
because it's the start of that new arc. It picks
up from where we've sort of left off. But as
I said, we're a year later, and it's difficult. We
know Gorman is so integral to this season. This is
where the Gorman stuff really kicks off. It's been alluded
to before, it's been spoken about before, but here we are,

(47:47):
and to tear up what's coming to end with Lutheran
basically saying to Cassie and you're going to Gorman and
you know, and the whole scenario with Bis and her issues,
and just everybody's picked up in one place and dropped
off in another. That's what I like about and Or
is that there's no wasted motion. Everybody is very rarely

(48:09):
left where they were found. You know, I suppose even
if you look back to season one, Marva is the
one character in season one that is always on Ferry.
She's the Feryxian. She's there, and there's certain people around
her on that world. But then there's people lot Brasso
was moving around helping Cass and there's other people who
are even the guy in the shipyard was busy in

(48:31):
doing stuff. But Marv's very sedentary in that sense because
she's sort of the anchor of that community, and her
loss is so heavily felt. Her own annoyance. Why wasn't
no braver sooner rings even louder than it might if
it was a character that was up in arms and
throwing ricks at people. So you know, there's a strength
in that. And so here in season two, you know,

(48:53):
Cyril's moved from Corrison. He always wanted to get back
to Corson, but this his mom kind of told him
he did, you know, And there's all these other character
is that busy? You know, now Bix and Brasso and
Wilman and those guys are on bed around and not
where you left them. Everybody's moving and so this episode
feels like again now Bix and Cassie and are living

(49:13):
in that infamous apartment on Coruscon. You know, they're moving,
and Dedra's moved across. Maybe not a promotion, but she
sort of moved off the axising and hearts move forwards.
Everybody's moving around. Lonnie is not as quiet as he
was in season one, is a lot more involved in
season two. Clearly his voice is heard at that table
in a way that it probably wasn't in season one.

(49:34):
And there's missing faces from that table as well, So
there's the passage of time. So I just like the
fact that it's moving us forward. As Dad says, you know,
it's not action heavy. Personally, I don't care that it's
not action heavy. I like it when the action dots in,
it's interesting and it's affects it. But in terms of
Star Wars, it's a bit like Hawkeye a few years

(49:54):
ago when he had when he had the two characters,
you know, Yelaina and or forget Kate. I think it's
Kate talking heads ahead and you just have that whole conversation,
head to head thing and nothing was happening. It was
just all inference, just the two of them, and it
was electric. And or is that to me? Twelve times
over and every season it doesn't. I don't need to

(50:16):
see assts. I'll wait for Manda Grogo for that. I'm excited.
Is there anything for that? But in and it works
that it's more more thought provoking, more chess. It's a
game of chess, not a game of checkers. So I
do enjoy that lovely well.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
I knew you two would be just excellent to talk
about With this one, I'm gonna give it an A plus.
I prefer this episode over the episodes one, two, and three.
I think, as I mentioned at the top of the
show that I didn't even notice it was there was
no action until Daz pointed it out, and it just
gripped me. I was more invested in this than I
have been any other episodes, and I love the other episode.

Speaker 5 (50:56):
I was really intrigued by.

Speaker 4 (50:57):
Them, but this brings it to a as it were
a thank you spinal tap, and I was very intrigued
because of all the character stuff. And as I said
on robo base Card when we did our synopsis of
the entire thing, this series doesn't waste any moments. Every

(51:18):
character beat has purpose, has a long game in mind,
and they interweave together like the.

Speaker 5 (51:24):
Web of a spider.

Speaker 4 (51:25):
And I think that is great and I'm not letting
that metaphor go. I'm gonna take it. I'm gonna write
a paper on it. It's gonna be great. It's gonna
be great.

Speaker 5 (51:33):
Gentlemen.

Speaker 4 (51:34):
It was great, absolutely fantastic to talk with you both.
So grateful for any time we get to spend chatting
with one another. Daz really love to get in a
chance to catch up with you. Where can people reach
out to you online to continue the conversation.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
I think probably the best place to find me is
on Instagram, Dars Davis and then number one after it.
I'm forever posting some rubbish on there, so feel free
to come and have a look. Yeah, yeah, that's the
best place to find me.

Speaker 4 (52:02):
I'd say, love it, and I loved all of your
posts and your videos from Japan looked like it was
quite an incredible experience.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
Amazing.

Speaker 4 (52:12):
Love it and Mark of course, it's always an incredible
blessing to chat with you. You're just so integral to
the world of Star Wars and fandom, and we just
love what's going on with Phanto Tracks. Please share all
the good work that you and your friends are doing.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah, Phantom Tracks dot com at Phanto Tracks on pretty
much all the socials. Yeah, BCBS busy with the site
and with the socials, and obviously with the podcasts and
the YouTube channel. So loads and loads going on over there.
And if you want to chat to me, not that
you would, but if you did prefect underscore timing at
all the socials and prefect timing on Blue Sky. So yeah,

(52:50):
but I'm always out there for a chat or a
nudge or whatever.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
And just like that, our journey through the galaxy for
today is come to a close. Thank you so much
for joining me here at coffee with Kenoby, the place
where thoughtful Star Wars conversations pair perfectly with your favorite
cup of coffee, whether you're on the go, relaxing at home,
or sipping kafe your favorite corner of the galaxy. I'm
truly grateful you chose to spend part of your day
with me, and by the way.

Speaker 5 (53:17):
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Speaker 4 (53:20):
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Speaker 5 (53:34):
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Speaker 5 (54:35):
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(55:44):
fans find our little corner of the galaxy. Do you
need a speaker for your next event, visit danzimedia dot com.
I love to talk mythology, leadership, storytelling, or tailor something
unique for your audience. Grab your CWK gear at coffeew
withthcnobe dot com slash shop and show your support in
style and talking mugs, hoodies, T shirts, baseball hats, gosh

(56:08):
phone cases, There's just so much stuff. Magnets, Yeah, magnets
as well again Coffee with Knobe dot com slash Shop.
A huge thank you again to Mark Newbold and Da
Davies for joining me today for a virtual cup of coffee.
I'm so grateful to them for sharing their time and talent,
and grateful.

Speaker 5 (56:24):
To you for joining me each and every week.

Speaker 4 (56:27):
I'm Dan's are and this is the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 6 (56:31):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star Wars dot com. Star Wars, All names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(56:53):
intellectual property of Coffee with Kenobi. Unless otherwise indicated, this
is the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
There's no One here, Hamel on Home along

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