CWK Show #826: Andor- "What A Festive Evening"

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi. This is the In Desher, author of William Shakespeare
Star Wars, and you are listening to coffee with Kenobi
the Danzy. This is the podcast you're looking for. They
would just be here if I was alone. I came
with you to be part of something. You want my blood.

(00:20):
You help me work this out. Bail now, I'm free.
That was my last investor to party of the season.
But don't tell me you've left Paul Brayer on there
all alone. No, we had to split up to covering
the rounds him Drew Scotland. Yes, we most did that,
but not tonight. Know your family now, isn't it beautiful?

Speaker 2 (00:41):
You're risking everything mostly to your left.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Tell me what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm removing your listening device from this piece.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
And you're going to help me by blocking the view.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Get in the chair.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
I know you Get in the chair.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
How do I know?

Speaker 3 (01:01):
They will only feel like forever? This is Vanessa Marshall
Harrison Dula from Star Wars Rebels, and you're listening to
coffee with Kenoby. Well we're back. It is time to
get back dive into and Or season two. This is

(01:22):
the sixth episode of season two. It is called What
a festive evening, and I have got with me my
co host. Always brings the festive, always brings the knowledge
and the fun. Mister Dennis Keith Lee, Dennis, welcome back
to the show, buddy. It's been too long.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, yeah, well, it's great to be back. It's always
fun to do coffee with Kenoby and chat star wars
with you. And I was really thrilled to get the
invite to talk about this fantastic episode of and Or.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
And I love that we're actually having coffee, which happens
on occasion. Sometimes people think it's a prerequisite.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
It's not.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
It just works out rather beautifully with your Disney dream car. Well,
we're certainly sorry you couldn't join us on our CWK cruise.
I'm confident that someday we're gonna the stars will align
for us.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Oh yeah, that'd be a blast. I love myself a
good Disney cruise. That's my preferred way of vacationing. And
I had fun living vicariously through you and your crew
during your Alls podcast crew. It was the next best
thing to being there.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Oh, I'm I'm glad to hear that. Let's look and
Or season two is such a vision such an incredible
storytelling and this one, As we of course know, there
are four arcs in season two. We're just looking at
one episode at a time. But this is the culmination
of the second arc, which for my money, is the

(02:45):
second best arc in season two. But we're gonna start,
like we always do, with one word to kind of
encapsulate our feelings on the episode in overall thoughts, Dennis,
what do you think of what a festive evening? What's
the one word?

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah? So for my word, I mean, I knew you
were going to ask this, and a bunch of things
kept coming to mind that ended up being phrases and sentences,
and so I decided to boil it down to this
one word. It's not perfect, but it's going to have
to do, and I'll explain it, and that's perspective. I
settled on that because there's a lot of discussion from
luth and Rail about how he views Gorman and its

(03:25):
potential for good or for bad. Then there's discussion by
other characters about how Luthen sees them, and then there's
an entire argument between mon Mafama and director Critic about
insurgencies and point of view and that type of thing.
So perspective is how I is what I chose to
embody all those different themes that happen here. And then

(03:47):
even when we get down to this great piece of
art that at the end where we have this listening
device and at the Tinian Codex, you know, they make
the statement that blindness is a gift, and I was like, well,
that's perspective as well. So I settled in perspective, and
I think we'll end up probably talking about that quite
a bit as we go through this.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yeah, I think, so this is one that I too
found myself coming up with phrases. And while I could
probably have made that work, my word is explosive, and
I don't mean that to be cute. I think this
whole thing is very volatile. Of course, actual real explosions

(04:26):
that happen that really kind of shake things. But there's
so much tension. You're just waiting for the bomb to
go off. You're just waiting for Credic to discover what
is happening, or someone to be discovered during this insurgency,
and it puts you on the edge of your seat.
Even now. The first time I watched, of course, the

(04:48):
first time you watch it is always the most tension filled,
but even this time, after several weeks before between viewings,
you feel that dynamism that makes it such a good
episode truly. So what's the first topic of conversation you'd.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Like to bring up? Well, I'm going to kind of
start at the beginning of the episode, and it's this
conversation that Luthen and Cassian have. You know, he's picking
him up after Cassian has been to Gorman and he's
trying to get Cassian's assessment of what he thinks of Gorman,
and Cassian just writes it off. He says, you know,

(05:29):
we can't do this, it's not ready, and they have
this conversation that ranges from why it is that Luthen
recruited him, you know, Cassian wanted to tell Luthen, you
bring me in or kill me, and then the value
of Gorman to the rebellion, and this kind of goes

(05:49):
into my word again, it's just this whole perspective it.
Luthan is all about the cause here, and so he's
talking about how a world like Gorman is a is
a world of sophistication, it's a world of power, and
how valuable that would be to have them as part
of this burgeoning rebellion that is coming about. And when
Cassian is going about how they're not ready, Luthern's response

(06:13):
is like, yeah, well if it's burning, even better, you know,
because how much it'll tention to bring to things. And
so I was just thinking back to Luthen's speech from
season one where he's talking to Lonnie about what it
is that he sacrificed, you know, kindness and dignity and
all these things. What does this cost him? It's cost
him everything, And I felt like, nowhere is this on
display as much as it is here. You know, he's

(06:35):
just talking. He's callously talking about Gorman. Not that he
pities these people, not that he wants he sympathizes with
their cause. It is all about what they can do
for the rebellion and the value they bring that way.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
Right, and the entire thing that he's and this, while
he I think would find this to be essential and necessary,
I think he has lost sight. And this is brought
up by Manmathma when she asks about her cousin. This
is certainly brought up by by Senta's relationship is clearly

(07:09):
brought up, as you just mentioned by Cassian in regards
to Vicks, but he has forgotten the human element of
this thing. He's forgotten that the as Cassian says, we
are not droys, we are you know, we're people. He
doesn't say we're people, but that is what he's saying.
And this loss of perspective that while it's probably more

(07:30):
convenient for Lutheran to turn off the emotional part of
his brain because otherwise he has to face the trauma
he has seen an experience and that he is living
in by choosing, you know, courageously to help liberate the galaxy,
a very very very daunting task. The lack of realizing
that these are human beings that have emotions and real

(07:53):
connections is his great flaw and it sure creates some
incredible drama. I rewatched the conversation, both conversations that Luthan
and Cassie and have together, and in this season they're
not on screen together very much. They really aren't. They
rarely intersect with one another and have these conversations, but

(08:17):
when they do, it leaves a mark that makes you
sort of question things and you know, gosh, is it
worth it? Can someone else fight this fight?

Speaker 1 (08:26):
No?

Speaker 3 (08:27):
They can't, But Luthan's inability or unwillingness is probably a
better word to think about. The humanity is what makes.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
It so fascinating, right, And I think Luthan affords so
many other people and that are part of this rebellion,
the privilege of trying to fight on their terms. But
when you know, back in the first arc, when man
Mathma and he're talking and oh, I can't remember the

(09:00):
name of Ma Mathma's friend, but the one that had
helped her with her money problem, and yeah, and and
it's clear that Luthen's going to have him oft is
to remove him from the equation. And her responses, I
don't think I know what you mean, and he says,
how nice for you. Again, he does the dirty work.
He's willing to do things on a level that everyone

(09:20):
else won't and so that you know, Mam Mathama can
hold her ideals. That's a bit harsh, I think now
that hearing these words come out of my mouth. But
the But at the same time, you know, characters like
Sagerera kind of buy into some of Luthern's philosophy. It's
like they're willing to fight with the tools of their enemy,
even if it condemns them in the process here, but

(09:43):
it affords everybody else that chance to fight by quote
unquote the rules and kind of live with their conscience
a little bit better.

Speaker 3 (09:53):
Absolutely, absolutely, I speaking no conscience. I want to talk
about the end. Well, first of all, Villain Sinta kind
of took a back seat for a while, almost to
the point where you could it would be understandable for
you to forget about that whole dynamic. But it comes
back here quite beautifully. Their reunion is emotional in the cafe.

(10:20):
I don't know if that's the actual term the cafe,
but you know what I'm talking about. And then this
whole situation where they're talking with all these Gorman's to
try to get them. Hey, you understand, like this is
not a game. Only the two of us are going
to have blasters. No one else is going to have them.
And you've got to listen. You got a follow a

(10:42):
chain of coming and you just get that sense that
something's going to go wrong, something's going to be a
miss because the drive, I think it's the driver. You
get the sense that you know. Vell even says, look,
if anyone doesn't then they can follow orders. This is
the time to do it. But it's after sentadize and

(11:04):
she has that conversation when she says, you know, she
was a warrior, she has everything that you have day
dreamed about. She was a miracle. And you to die
like this because of you, some whining, simpering, childish fool.
Don't you dare cry. You'll make up for this forever.
Talk to me about your emotions when you watch that.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, this was so tragic in here, and there was
all this subtle, not so subtle foreshadowing that was happening
throughout this episode. One of the things just isn't side.
One of things I loved about this episode is how
well it's stood by itself. I mean, I haven't rewatched
any of these episodes for a few months now, and
when it came into this one, it was a nice
contained story that fits inside a art really well. But again,

(11:48):
they have this reunion that you were alluding to in
the cafe and then later and there are some quiet
moments after they've debriefed the Gormans about how it's going
to go. He's like, we're giving the orders. You have
to follow orders. You have to be Drina, you have
to be down there. You're you're driver. You have to go.
No one gets blasters. We're the only ones that get
to do this. And you know, they quietly prove Cassie

(12:12):
and right with what he says to Luthen here about
they aren't ready either rushing into this. This is a problem.

Speaker 3 (12:19):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
And again Luthen doesn't care. But they've been separated. They
come back, they make mention to each other about how
they haven't intended to hurt each other. Sena had an
injury and she needed some time to recover, but she
didn't want Vell to worry about her. And they're may
they last time we saw them in the same scene

(12:40):
was at the end of the previous arc when Teddy
that was his name, was getting driven off by Santa
and they just kind of looked at each other. And
now they're back and they're exchanging all these words, all
these things that they wanted to say, and before they
can get on with that next phase, we get this
tragic accident here. And it was sad and I transcribed

(13:03):
that everything that Bell said to Sam in that moment
as you were reading, and I was reading off my
notes here, and and you could sense her anger, you
could sense her fury over this, but also this I
don't know how to describe it, angry resignation about everything
that you know, this is the role that they they
signed up for, and she's not going to let this

(13:25):
kid get away with it. But again, you know, I
guess I just summarize everything again, it was just it
was just tragic, uh there, and uh, you know, completely avoidable.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
It's of it, yes, for sure. And I think it's
a very very realistic representation of grief in the real world.
There there's this unique thing that happens and unfortunately, probably
many of you have been a part of this. I
know I've been a part of this where we're both
grieving over loss of someone. And here it's like a

(14:02):
one upsman. You're like, oh, you're sad because you killed someone. Well,
you don't get to be sad. This was the love
of my life. She was a visionary, she was a warrior,
she was everything you ever daydreamed about. You don't get
to be more sad than me. I mean, that's that's
sort of and I'm probably armchair psych being armchair psychologists,
But to me, that is the impression that I got

(14:23):
this deep, horrific grief and anger that she is showing
the most incredible control, Like she probably wants to throttle
this guy, but she knows it's not going to bring
center back, and she is so upset, but she channels
that into this righteous anger, the indignation you talked about,

(14:44):
because you don't get to be more sad, like you
made this mistake. There was plenty of warning, but you chose,
you know, to tap into your testosterone. She doesn't say that,
but that is what he does.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
You know. He gets in the.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
Fight with the big guy whose name I I suddenly
can't remember.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Levin.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yes, it was just such a dynamite presence and you
see that in earlier episodes. In this arc, like he
clearly holds control of the room with his power, his
physicality and his righteous righteousness as well, and it just
really leaves some mark, Like you feel for You feel

(15:23):
for him because he's grieving because he killed someone he
didn't want to, he didn't mean to. She was on
his side, and obviously he's never killed anyone before, and
it's just you feel for him, but you also are
anger with him. It's this is another reason why this
show is so complicated and so dynamic, and it represents
this wide spectrum of human emotion that we have.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
It's amazing. Yeah. And what I also liked about Belle's
speech there to Sam was that it did not go
back to I told you this would happen. It was
not about I told you not to carry last years,
I told you to follow orders. It was all about
the consequences and the situation and you know, this is
who we've lost, and now you have to bear that loss.

(16:09):
You have to make up for this, and you're going
to be making up for it for the rest of
your life. Really really powerful the way that was delivered.
Very much so very much.

Speaker 3 (16:18):
So, what's the next thing on your list?

Speaker 1 (16:22):
Bix? In this one, I absolutely loved her arc in this,
this little revenge arc that she gets. I couldn't help
but thinking of the Great gats Big when she's looking
out the window at the flashing light. You know, it's
kind of the reverse gats fighting after Daisy there and
you know, so Cassie and wakes up and she's taken
another dose of that drug, the stem whatever it is,

(16:44):
to try and deal with their situation, and she lays
it out for him, which is I'm coming next time.
You know, she wants to do something to get over this,
and I don't I don't recall. I don't think we
ever knew prior to the end of this episode that
that's where doctor Gore was. We'd heard references to him

(17:04):
in this episode. Partiges finds Lonnie and Hurt I think
is the other ICEPS agent's name, and says, hey, here's
what's going on. The Army has found out about doctor
Gorst and they don't want him isolated, just what we're doing,
and so that's the reference we get. And then we
find out that that flashing light is where his lab is.
And so at the end of the episode when he

(17:26):
wanders back in there and she puts him back into
the chair and he's it's only slowly dawning on him
as to what's going on that Oh yeah, I want
to torture right, And then she says, you know, don't worry,
it only feel like forever when she puts the headphones on,
walks out, shoots the guards, and then Cassian blows everything up.
But we've had plenty of discussion in this art about

(17:47):
Bix and where she is and whether she can recover
Cassian and and or are the Cassian name never Cassian
and Luthan argue about her that you know, Cassian is
furious that Luthen can to see her without him being around,
and Luthen puts it to him that at some point

(18:08):
you got to make a decision about what to do
about her. I need her healthy, I need her able
to do something, and I mean revengeus therapy, I suppose
when it comes down to it. But it gave her
closure in this and I don't know, it just was.
It was a powerful conclusion to the episode, and from

(18:28):
here on out we really get her at her best,
and you know, this is her again. I know we're
not supposed to look forward to the other episodes, but
this is this is her moment when she gets to
she gets closure on everything that happened with her, and
she gets to put Cassian's concerns behind her improve that
she is up to the task.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
It's so challenging, and you address this, and I'm glad
that you did it. For On the one hand, this
is very satisfying because she gets that, she gets her moment,
she gets to do payback, the beautiful irony of you know,
hoist it on your own petard, as they say in Hamlet,

(19:13):
where he doctor Gorst is the victim of this thing
that even the Emperor himself has taken interest in as
part of Guest says earlier in the episode, in realizing
what a valuable commodity this guy is for the way
he's able to extract information from prisoners, and of course
the amount of cruelty that it inflicts and the lack

(19:36):
of morality that is presented here is not lost, which
is probably one of the reasons why the Emperor likes it.
Let's be honest, but it is highly problematic. I think
we're meant to kind of embrace it and love it.
And I guess it's hard for me to explain this,
but go with me here and help me kind of

(19:56):
figure this out. She clearly has a drug problem, but
it suddenly goes away because part of gas is taken
care of. I mean, I don't know anything about addiction
other than very surface stuff. I haven't studied it. I'm

(20:16):
not a professional. I don't have a license to analyze
things like this, and I don't pretend to. And as
a viewer, I was very satisfied that she got her
chance to pay back, and more importantly, to give herself
some resolution to take power to take ownership of the situation. Now,
let him or her his memory defeed her. That was

(20:39):
wonderful and satisfying, and on one hand, I really it
works so beautifully for me, but I'm also troubled by it,
by the ease of which she and maybe there's more
to it that we just haven't seen, I guess, but
the fact that this is the only way to get back,
and maybe it is the only way because we're talking
about war, but it's still it's still tricky for me.

(21:04):
I mean, even like her demeanor at the end, and
she and Cassie and like I love that too, like
the triumphant and the music it almost sounds like music
from Stranger Things in its stand or theme, but with
very keyboard synthesize are driven apparently, Am I making any
sense at all?

Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (21:20):
You are, And I think some of the difficulties though,
even though this is a twelve episode series, it really
is four arcs when it comes down to it. And
what do we see with Bicks up to this point
it is these nightmares where Gorst comes from her again.
It's Gorst invading her home, it's Ghrst getting ready to
torture her, and she nearly gets raped in the previous

(21:42):
arc about this. In this situation, she's put Gorst beyond reach.
He can't come after her anymore now that he's been
taken care of. And so yeah, I know, we got
twelve episodes, but you can't get into every detail, and
this episode does so much. There's so many things going on,
so we get the shorthand of her bringing this to

(22:05):
a conclusion. He can't come after her anymore now that
you know. Whether she has any nightmares going forward, I
don't know, but again, it's not a possibility that he's
going to be walking through that door and making her
relive that nightmare anymore. So yeah, I mean, it's the
myth of REDEMPTI violence. I know you've all talked about it,

(22:26):
and it's something that we hear about all over the place.
But again, it's satisfying because he's such an awful person. Yeah,
when it comes down to it, and she is someone
that we like. You know, she's attractive, she's been trying
to do the right thing. She's one of the good
people in this and she didn't deserve the torture in
the first place. So being able to turn the tables,

(22:47):
even though it is horrific. It is satisfying in that way.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
It is. Yeah, Ike, do mistake, It's extremely empowering and satisfying,
and that that is not something I dismissed her take
for granted by any in any stretch of the imagination
in this instance. I mean, you know, in the context
of Star Wars, this this fully makes sense. I guess

(23:14):
I'm more troubled by this addiction thing and now it's not.
But I guess maybe this isn't the kind of show
to dress up, but it addresses other things too. You know,
I don't know. People far smarter than me could probably
explain it a lot.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Better than I could. Yeah, I don't know much about
addiction either. I think it was I mean, one last
trying to make some sort of an explanation for it,
I guess would simply be she was coping it with one.
She was trying to cope, and now she doesn't have
to cope.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
I agreed, absolutely, And like you said, the nightmares are
gone because she took control. She sees control of this
and that is amazing. Like, I can't think of a
better way from that perspective to take care of it.
And it's very satisfying, and it's also troubling, but I
think it's I think it should be a little bit troubling.

(24:02):
The whole thing is troubling her. What she has gone through,
you could argue, is maybe some of the worst stuff
anybody in Star Wars has gone through, and she was
such what she dealt at the end of season one
was so was so troubling. But but it's cool too.
It's it's cool that she's able to you know, I'm

(24:25):
stars that commis is that she wasn't the one to
end Gorsed. Would she ever had believed she was truly
free of that particular pain. It's a small victory for
the rebels and an explosive end of Vix's torment, but
a moment worth cheering all the same. And that's Kristin
Baber and I agree, well, well said Kristin. Let's talk
about the end of this. This this incredible, incredible scene

(24:48):
where they're at this party, right the in laws of
gotten back together. You know, we've got who we we
have about mon Mathma and parent are there at scold
in Scolden's place, and then Kranik shows up, which is
a great supply. As Lonnie is there, luth And is
there Klaya? Is there? This whole sequence you alluded to

(25:12):
this earlier with the Teenian Codex, where Claiya has to
remove this device from the bottom of slictening device which
has been set up over the past couple of episodes,
and it literally gets down to the point where it
takes She is twisting, she's using her pendant which is

(25:33):
actually a key to unlock this thing, and it gets stuck,
which is a great metaphor. And you know, the whole
Codex thing is is there because it's by a culture
where they think that where vision is not emphasized, right,
it's not about what you see, it's what's beyond the surface,

(25:53):
which is again an incredible metaphor. But her hands even
start to bleed to try to make this thing happen.
We don't even ever get that satisfaction satisfactory where we
hear a click where we know it worked or she's
able to unlock it, but we know that it happens.
That entire sequence is so great. While while in mon Moth,
when we see through this episode, you know in the

(26:16):
Senate chambers she's reached kind of an explosive moment in
her evolution to where she can't take it anymore. She
can't even she never was wanted to stay silent anyway,
which is part of why she's the perfect person to
help lead this rebellion. But her back and forth with
Kranick and the whole thing, it's just it's a masterclass.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
It's a master class. Absolutely. There are so many wonderful
things going on in this scene, and just you know,
to rattle off some for the first time that I
can recall, we see Paren and mon Mathma like as
a real couple, as supportive of one another. Is man
Mafma's having this argument with Crinic parent up to her

(27:00):
side to like lend that silent, quiet support. And that's
not how we think of Paren through this series. We
think of him as kind of the you know, he's
the drinker. He's kind of irresponsible with money. He is
a little bit callous towards Mom Mathma her mission a
lot of times. But even earlier in this episode, he's
kind of helping her coordinate how they're gonna get through

(27:22):
all these investiture parties, and he's part of the team here,
and so he continues with that and then yeah, Man
Mathma cannot let it slide. What Krinic is saying about
the I can't remember the name of the conflicts, but
they're talking about anothererent piece of art and he's calling
it an uprising and she's calling it an execution, and

(27:43):
you know, she just it's just part of her personality.
I wouldn't call her fiery, but she just can't let
an injustice go when she sees one. And so that's
part of the whole perspective comment. You know, Crinic is
going on about how insurgents will always send puff up
the situation or inflate their losses and talk about things.
And so while Claia is desperately trying to get the

(28:06):
listening device out of the Tenian codex, you get you
got to watch it with the close captioning everything that's
going on about this back and forth argument, and it
goes from one piece of art to the next piece
of art to the next piece of art. This entire time,
they just do not lit up while the entire thing
is happening. And then you've got Lonnie, who is the

(28:27):
cover for Clail while she's doing this and scared of death. Yeah,
he's wanted out from this entire thing for a long
for years now, and she's basically said, Nope, you're doing this.
You do not get a choice. Moved your left, moved
your left, and he kept it there, getting closer. And
you mentioned the tension earlier. It just keeps getting ratcheted up,

(28:49):
ratchet up here, and you don't get the release of
that until the final moments of this episode. But I
loved it. I forgot that this was in this episode.
And so when as soon as they showed up there
and we got the new Vail Organa at the beginning
of this party here, I was like, oh, yes, we
get this scene. Uh, you know, critics, in my opinion,

(29:11):
best scene in the entire season here with Ma Mathma.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
And I think the day drilling is better, but we'll
probably get to that later.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah. I guess I just liked him sparring when with
my great here.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Yeah, and uh, and he loves it, he relishes it,
and she's like a cobra ready to strike, right.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah. And Ben Mendelssohn's not being like vicious here, he's
being cheeky. He's being uh right, and just the way
he carried that off was taking her on right. Oh yeah, yeah,
but yeah, this was this was fantastic. I really liked it. Again,
just even the symbolism of when Claya is can't get
the listening device out and she's twisting that pennant and

(29:50):
we see the blood dripping. I mean, you know, the
spilling of the blood for this rebellion, for the cause.
You know, the the metaphor that they've got there. That
was a nice touch as well.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
Right, and not this the whole thing about not appreciating
or not not you know the what is the thing
that they say about sight? I want to Oh, I
got to click right here. Let me see what it says.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
Let's see.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
This is what it says on stars dot com. The
Tenian Codex is a priceless artifact on display and that
als Goolden's extravagant gallery. That Tinian Codex was forged two
thousand years before the time of the Empire by a
culture that considered blindness.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
As a gift.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
A story told by touch was beautifully inlaid into the
intricate stone and metal discs. So blindness is a gift
because your eye, you know, Obi wan Kenobi says, and
and you hope your eyes can deceive, you don't trust them.
Where we see blindness as a gift, I guess it
would depend on the person and the perspective. But there
it's that there's a lot of beautiful metaphor I think

(30:54):
in that as.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Well, right at one point that even say site is
a disability in this episode here in yeah, that is fantastic.
It says something to looking beyond the surface while mon
Mothman critic or debating about an insurgency versus an execution,
you know, uprising or then you've got there's an underlying

(31:17):
truth here and when you're not letting your eyesight guide
you on that, when you can dive into something deeper,
more real with a touch is though, I guess the
way they would phrase it, you can you can get
past the disability and get to the heart of the matter.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
Yes, and very much appreciating and taking ownership of something
that happened that you don't like, that you don't want,
that you didn't ask for, like Bicks does at the end,
and using it as a way to take control. Right
if you if you're blind and you consider it a gift,

(31:54):
then it's not a burden, then it's not a curse.
I mean, I'm assuming that is kind of what we're
going for here. Matt Murdoch would certainly agree with that,
although there are certain enhancements that he receives, but it's
it's the enlightenment in that perspective that really makes us
really highly digestible. And Ifhabs I would say, I would

(32:15):
argue that this sequence, this scene is among the best
in both seasons of Vander And when I you see
the image and you realize that's going to be in
the episode, you just get excited. You just get really
happy because you know you're gonna see incredible acting, dialogue, music,
the tension, it's fantastic mm hmmmm.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
And then even the uh, the after effects of this
when Luther and Clia are leaving and we just going
back and forth between the tragedy that's happened on Gorman
and this party and we've just seen Santa get killed
by accident here and we've had the discussion of how

(32:58):
Santa and Vell are talking about Luthen sees the more
valuable apart than together, and there's this loss, and then
these two walk out of the party laughing, and Luthen's
making this joke about how they should have killed critic
while they were up there, and you know, she casually
hands over listen advice, you know, thank you. And so
it's just a This viewing that I did in preparation

(33:21):
for discussion was very eye opening. It was great to
watch this a second time and kind of get back
to what we were talking at the top of the
episode with how Luthen's inflated the cause above everything else,
and he's you know, he's lost the force for the
trees when it comes down to because he's the people

(33:41):
are disposable. It's all about bringing down the empire. It's
all about the rebellion in this case. And yeah, I mean,
you know, Lonnie, they are perfectly willing to sacrifice him
in that moment if that's what it came down to.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
And ironically he needs Claya too, like he needs her
as well. Okay, well, I feel pretty good about I
feel like we've hit the major highlights about those things
that stood out to me the most. Is there anything
that you'd like to bring up as we wrap up
before we give our letter grades?

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Just briefly, I know you all talked a bit about
Cyril and Dedra on previous discussion. Ya and Cyril, right,
and he's in this episode and he's you know, he's
the eyes on the ground for the Empire and the
ISSB with what's going on in Gorman, and I just
want to take him home because part of Guys does
tell Dedra that Cyril can never know what this is

(34:32):
all really about.

Speaker 3 (34:33):
And that's the first time that's addressed, right, I believe.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
And we had opportunities to see earlier in the season
about this work that he's doing for the ISB. He
thinks he's there to find rebel infiltrators that are showing
up and cause Gorman here, and so anyways, it's just
something I wanted to tag because it does become important
leader and because.

Speaker 3 (34:55):
They're using him to bring it out, so they're really there.
Our goals are not that dissimilar. But the fact that
he's not a part of the plan, he is part
of the the Empire's you know, subterfuge. He is being used.

(35:15):
He thinks he's part of the plan. He's actually being used,
and it's very it's very muddy, I think, don't you.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, yeah, because he's in it for stopping this rebellion,
you know, they're in it for getting you know, this
propaganda war against Gorman so they can get the minerals
that they want eventually. And so you know, when you
put that against the relationship that Cyril and Dedra have
created here, it's you know, it is you can see

(35:43):
the heartbreak coming.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
And then they can they can defend. Hey, we had
to do this with the Growman people are bad. They
tried to stop what we were doing. So yeah, it's
really all about kyro crystals and things of that nature.
But they don't let him in on that. And then again,
in a very surface level, he thinks he's helping, but

(36:07):
really he's just part of He's one of the things
that is being used, just like the people of Gorman
are being used. And yeah, he of course is going
to be. So they're calling a lot of shots that
we're going to see later. We're going to get some
narrative home runs that are not so home run worthy
for the people experiencing it in this fictional universe. But boy,
I'm glad you brought Seer Love because he is he's

(36:29):
so integral to this and to constantly showing us about betrayal,
the way that the Empire uses people, the terrible things
that happened as a result of war and conflict. And
again we say this over and over again, we probably
will for as long as we talk about and or.
This series does it better than I think than anything

(36:51):
really does.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Oh absolutely, I completely agree. And you know, he's not
the easiest guy to like, but he does have a
purer motive than what the empire did and he gets
completely used. And so again it's a trategy in its
own way.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
The pure motive is is the best way to explain
it I could ever come up with. So yeah, bravo,
well done. Well, why do we do letter grades? What's
your letter grade? And last last thoughts on this, Oh,
this is fine.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
This is an easy I mean it's it's hard to
find an episode of this season that's not an A
when it comes down to it, when you take everything in,
it's a it's a masterful bit of storytelling. Is a
great way to end the story arc. Uh, you just
get an opportunity to relish all of the exchanges between
the characters here, that party scene with the art exhibit

(37:44):
being the the end of it there. So yeah, I
don't have much more to say about it than that
it earns its a.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
Yeah, it's it's a it's a stone called A plus.
I could argue this is the best episode we've seen
of the for six I think it hits all the
narrative highs. It results some key story beats. It gives
us some emotional strength and pathos that are unmatched. It

(38:15):
achieves heights and depths and breadth of storytelling narratively, structurally,
performance wise that are just people dream about. This is
like a symphony. This is a narrative symphony. I know,
think of your favorite band and the best song that

(38:36):
they ever did. I mean, this is almost like it's
not quite Abbey Road if and or is the Beatles catalog,
but it might be Sergeant Pepper, which some would say
is the best. And some of you listening have no
clue what this even means. But trust me, it's a
very very high compliment. And it's an A plus. I'm

(38:57):
curious you didn't give it an A plus.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Is there a reason I tend not to give anything
an A plus? I reserved that for my absolute favorite
of everything, Okay, And it comes down to it, so
and A is typically the highest I really just give
anything when I when I'm watching these episodes of Star
Wars on Disney plus.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
Listening to coffee with Knobe, you are with dan Z
the podcast you're looking.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
For this is.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
Well, I feel pretty confidence saying that you are an
A plus Dennis Keith Lee, you are an absolute A
plus and it's such an honor apprileage to share the
mic with you. Podcast start As continues to be fabulous.
You and Jay continue to entertain and educate and delight
us uh with the way you cover the stars galaxy
and I just couldn't be happier to be your friend

(39:50):
or to share the podcast airwaves with you.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Well, I really appreciate that. Dan, You know, you're the
guy that got me into podcasting. When was that sixteen?
I want to say, first time I was vid on
the show to discuss Reubles with you and Quary and
it's you know, rest is history after that. And I've
continued to enjoy cough with Knobe over the years and
I've always appreciate the opportunity to come on and talk

(40:16):
star Wars with you. It's a highlight every time.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
Likewise, friend, Well, speaking of Podcast Started Us, please let
us know what's going on with Podcast Started Us and
where they can we can find it as if they
don't already know and where they can find you sure, so.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
You can find it on any and all podcatchers. We
are in the middle of our sixth season. We just
crossed the nine hundred episode mark a couple of weeks ago.
We do three episodes a week. We usually end the
week with news. We're currently starting the week with Clone Wars.
We watch we've been doing, and then we have some
monthly features World between Worlds, where my co host Jay

(40:52):
gathers up recent Star Wars, fashion and lifestyle products. We
talk about those. We are we cover a movie every year.
They shure we're doing Reveno the Sith for its twentieth aniverse,
and we break down the movie into ten to fifteen
minute segments and talk about those every month. So yeah,
we got a lot going on. We're talking a lot
of high republic right now, so we've interested in that.
Come check us out, and we are at podcast artists

(41:13):
on Instagram, Facebook and a few other social media sites,
but I'm not great at keeping up with those, so yeah,
that's where you can find us.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
This podcast is not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company
or Lucasfilm Limited. It is intended for entertainment and informational
purposes only. The official Star Wars website can be found
at www dot star wars dot com. Star Wars, All names, sounds,
and any other Star Wars related items are registered trademarks
and or copyrights of Disney and their respective trademark and
copyright holders. All original content of this podcast is the

(41:43):
intellectual property of Coffy with Kenobi. Unless otherwise indicated, this
is the podcast you're looking for.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
No one here

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